How did I miss this notification?? Saving to watch when I have more time. Br. Augustine is the reason I have been exploring Orthodoxy and have visited a handful of parishes in the last few weeks. Still seeking "the one" and still have so many questions 😊
Never heard of subud, reminds me of Quakerism in a way. I was Quaker for a bit before I discovered orthodoxy and the writings of the church fathers totally changed my view of Christianity, my heart broke wide open & im now on my way to converting :D
I found this conversation very interesting. Thank you both. I'm learning a little about Orthodox Christianity, recently. So thank you Michael for the book references. Benjamin, I met you briefly at a conference, at the end of April, this year. I mentioned Cambodia very briefly... I would be interested to hear Michael talk about freemasonry. It's something that I've started reading about, recently.
The last third of this podcast was a great example of how more Orthodox should engage with the non Orthodox. That could have easily gone off in a tense direction. Thankful to both Ben and Michael for the engaging dialogue. I hope Ben will engage further, with Fr Turbo of the Royal Path, John Heers of WATAR, David Patrick Henry, in more Orthodox discussions. One wonderful thing about the hostory that goes along with Orthodoxy is: one doesn't have to keep re-inventing the wheel, which can get exhausting.
@@NinjaKittyBonks I got my events mixed up. 🤭 This upcoming rally is called Mother Is Female (#MotherIsFemale) and will take place at the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists' headquarters in D.C. The event is a demand that the ACOG "...divest itself from gender ideaology." Most references to women in official medical language are disappearing at an alarming rate ....and also affecting procedural standards of care.
@@helenablavatsky9136 ... OK. I have reached out to Mr. Benjamin and directed him to this thread. Hopefully he will chime in and speak to a Slightly Twisted Female about it 😸
15:10 I like how hardcore religious ppl sound so much like me, when they discuss religions other than their own, it's tasty, smoky, and delicious. You can't tell that I'm also eating doritos with chipotle salsa right now, so luckily the fourth wall is not broken.
Alarm bells go off in my brain when someone claims to have communicated with gods or devils. I always want the specifics. Because it usually falls apart.
The framework that Ben puts forward about the crux of being a good person is that you love other people and people love you back applies to Jesus massively. Jesus loves and loved everyone even the haters and most who came into contact with him loved him back. Just because there is an asymmetry of love with Jesus doesn't disprove the theory. I think the pivotal thing is that the love needs to be reciprocal in person not in abstraction, "I hate this Jesus guy who I have never met because of what he stands for". Interpersonal love is an excellent gauge of morality and the right path.
‘I think the pivotal thing is that the love needs to be reciprocal in person, not in abstraction.’ Yeah, I get what you’re saying! It can’t be love (or hate) in relation to a projection, or an idea of a person. It has to make authentic contact. Does that sound right?
I'm halfway through this, I always appreciate digging into what ppl mean when they allude to their beliefs, so I appreciate this. I just wanna throw this out there, maybe it's obvious but to be clear: if you don't accept that there is a literal physical deity, someplace/somehow, then you're an Atheist. If you're not sure, you're Agnostic. When you're deep into the Christian culture, (ethics etc.) without the actual belief in a deity, you're called either a Christian Atheist, or Christian Agnostic. Ppl might not want to use those terms, but basically that's what they mean. Ppl get caught up in the connotations sometimes, you don't have to be exactly like Christopher Hitchens, to still be an Atheist by definition.
Atheism and Theism deal with belief. If you believe you are a theist. If you do not you are an atheist. Agnosticism and Gnosticism deals with knowledge. Agnostics claim knowledge of the divine is impossible where as Gnostics think its possible to know. So you can be an agnostic atheist, gnostic atheist, agnostic theist, gnostic theist. They are not mutually exclusive.
@@chaucerianfraud6767I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've never seen any strong philosophy around agnostic theism or agnostic atheism. Generally agnosticism is presented as an indifference to the existence of God, as in agnostics don't pronounce themselves on either side of God exists/doesn't. What you're presenting seems to me as an academic difference that isn't present or relevant in most conversations.
@@thomaslacroix6011 agnosticism, (from Greek agnōstos, “unknowable”), strictly speaking, the doctrine that humans cannot know of the existence of anything beyond the phenomena of their experience.
@@chaucerianfraud6767 I understand what you're saying, but I've never seen a truly agnostic theist, in the sense that they claim not to know if God exists or not, besides not being able to prove his existence, so I feel like the distinction between agnostic theism and gnostic theism is not relevant, as agnosticism is by default atheism.
This is the problem that I have with religious discourse. I carefully describe 25 years of personal experience, and it’s reduced in an instant into a proposition that is merely agreed or disagreed with.
Hm… I wonder whether the Austrian painter would measure up. The painter seemed like a dark triad type, or narcissist; thus I doubt he was capable of honest love toward others. He might have achieved a simulacrum of love for others, which he mistook for love.. who knows? I’ve observed that narcissistic supply *can* be mistaken for ‘love’, by narcissists. But it’s not love. And the objects don’t experience it as love. Likewise, do people feel authentic love toward cult leaders? I doubt it - as they’re typically mislead over the leader’s identity. Maybe Benjamin’s method requires good discernment in order to be reliable as a personal method. Some minimal amount of ‘dirt’ clouding one’s perception. It doesn’t need to be universalizable to people with shaky discernment, in order to work for someone with good discernment. No?
@@devin_3875 i love my moma very much, if you touch my moma ill send you, your family, your car and your dog to an early journey to heaven, see how it works? there are heaps upon heaps of people that that did huge mass endings and they were no dark triad anything, if you dont believe the previous example just pick another, leonidas, alexander, vercingetorix, there're too many to count.
Also, lots and lots of people loved the painter with a mad zelot passion, the same kind of love people have for rockstars, its not a very odd thing to happen in history.
At approx 1:37:00. Regarding the apostolic succession or being the continuous church since the times of the apostles. The orthodox church does not resemble the church described in Acts where they shared all things in common and had apostles. Did they have giant cathedrals in the early church? Did they have the liturgy(as now constituted), the Nicene creed, the trinity, icons/saints, etc, etc? What can explain these developments? Could these then be a result of continued revelation which Brother Augustine seems to downplay so frequently in this conversation?
Yes the times have changed but the early church was in small places like caves and houses, had icons / paintings all over cave walls. Early church had to go underground because of persecution until Constantine made Christianity legal. Divine Liturgy and much of the church structure comes from second temple era Judaism which was what Christianity was essentially born from. Before Christians were banned from worshiping at synagogues very very early on
"I will ask my spiritual father" at approx 1:24:00. This is all sounds good but at some point someone has to give an answer that was either revealed at some point or will now be revealed. Jesus never addressed the "Subud" practice directly. His spiritual father will need to give a revealed answer right here and now or rely on previous revelation.
Yes, we will rely on “previous revelation” - specifically, the deposit of faith given to the Apostles - as well as basic deductive reasoning, to conclude that a spiritual experience which leads people to different religions and moral codes is not from the Christ Who described Himself as “the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”
Canon 6 of the 1st Council of Nicaea, which was approved by the Pope at the time, explicitly limits the Pope’s jurisdiction to Rome. There is no concept in the ancient Church of the Roman Bishop being everyone else’s boss.
@@brotheraugustine 🔥 The true Church follows the early Church. Like our God, it is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." Like St vincent of Lerins says, it believes "what was believed always, everywhere, and by all." Anything else is not the Apostolic deposit of faith.
Regarding orthodoxy downplaying personal revelation. Isn't what Benjamin and Brother Augustine are describing throughout this conversation personal revelation? Isn't coming to being convicted of your own sin through either Benjamin's subud practice or Orthodox Christian prayer/fasting an example of personal revelation? Isn't being humbled by your nothingness compared to God/Jesus a result of personal revelation? Isn't coming to believe in the revelation of Jesus a revelation? Isn't Bro. Augustine's calling to continue to write or figuring out what thesis topic to write about a result of revelation? Isn't day to day life filled continuingly with promptings(revelations) to do this or that?
Regarding "by your fruits you shall know them" and discernment of spirits that started at approx 1:27:00. Bro. Augustine asserts that all spiritual experiences should be distrusted and could come from Lucifer/Satan. Of course, by this logic, it is possible that all revelations to orthodox church fathers, even as a group, could have been Satanic. There is no way to distinguish whether the experiences that Benjamin has been having are any different from the orthodox experiences of the church fathers unless one resorts to, as Jesus recommends, examining the fruits. Jesus, who was also accused of being associated with the devil, recommended examining his fruits to justify himself and his claims. The fruits of Benjamin's practice have been positive as per his own self-report and Bro. Augustine also admits that the Satan-inspired Mormons he knows directly "are some of nicest people I have ever met". If, then, the practices from many religious including Muslims/Hindus in many cases (not all) are leading to positive fruit why then is Bro Augustine so insistent on associating different religious revelations than orthodoxy with the antithesis of good, namely Lucifer/Satan? The seems to contradict Jesus about examining fruits and also Jesus' assertion that Satan cannot cast out Satan(in other words do good. See Mark 3:20-26). Is not God working through all people for the Good whether orthodox or not? Did God not work for the good of people before orthodoxy ever existed or before Jesus was born?
so at 4:30 he proposes "Dogma is an important aspect of faith and our healing". I'm guessing, without watching the rest of this, that he's not going to actually address this. He'd have to define what Dogma is, without using the word Dogma or any synonym for dogma, which means if Dogma is an aspect of faith, he can't use the word "faith" in the definition; neither can he use the world "healing". And any argument using those words with regards to Dogma is a circular argument. So yeah, like I won't bother listening to circular arguments as those can go on for hours and get nowhere.
@@brotheraugustine That's circular reasoning. If you can't see it when it's pointed out then maybe you don't understand what it is. It may be helpful to learn what it is if you critiqued something you do not believe in. I assume as Christian, you don't believe in the Patriarchy so what's wrong with the following definition? Patriarchy is the misogeny of straight white christian cis men which grants white privilege to its members. What do you see wrong with this definition?
@@brotheraugustine I asked for a definition that isn't circular and you did not provide it. I'm satisfied you don't know what that is, if that helps. I'm satisfied you don't want to know what that means. I'm satisfied you rely on circular definitions to explain your lack of understanding. I'm satisfied this conversation can go nowhere. I'm satisfied any more time spent is wasted. So, yes, I am satisfied. Thank you for your response.
Thanks for being willing to engage openly, Ben. It was illuminating.
So great to hear from Brother Augustine again, Michael you have been missed!
I really enjoy your religious calmversations. It was nice to get a glimpse of some of your religious thoughts also.
Absolutely great conversation AND I wasn't expecting to love the music but I do! Nicely done.
How did I miss this notification?? Saving to watch when I have more time. Br. Augustine is the reason I have been exploring Orthodoxy and have visited a handful of parishes in the last few weeks. Still seeking "the one" and still have so many questions 😊
Wow. This went really deep. Thank you for a fantastic convo.
Never heard of subud, reminds me of Quakerism in a way. I was Quaker for a bit before I discovered orthodoxy and the writings of the church fathers totally changed my view of Christianity, my heart broke wide open & im now on my way to converting :D
I found this conversation very interesting. Thank you both. I'm learning a little about Orthodox Christianity, recently. So thank you Michael for the book references.
Benjamin, I met you briefly at a conference, at the end of April, this year. I mentioned Cambodia very briefly...
I would be interested to hear Michael talk about freemasonry. It's something that I've started reading about, recently.
Man imagine if Fr Turbo Qualls from the Royal path pod came on😧😧😧
Oh, that would be good.
The last third of this podcast was a great example of how more Orthodox should engage with the non Orthodox. That could have easily gone off in a tense direction. Thankful to both Ben and Michael for the engaging dialogue. I hope Ben will engage further, with Fr Turbo of the Royal Path, John Heers of WATAR, David Patrick Henry, in more Orthodox discussions. One wonderful thing about the hostory that goes along with Orthodoxy is: one doesn't have to keep re-inventing the wheel, which can get exhausting.
Ah, the return of Brother Augustine 💪Thank you Michael for another opportunity to share your thoughts and The Cat Whisperer for providing the space 🐈
Kitty, Brittany Roux will be holding a rally to keep men out of women's prisons in November. Would you let Ben know?
@@helenablavatsky9136 .. YES... will do, but please give more info, so that I can just direct him to this thread 💜
@@NinjaKittyBonks I got my events mixed up. 🤭
This upcoming rally is called Mother Is Female (#MotherIsFemale) and will take place at the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists' headquarters in D.C.
The event is a demand that the ACOG "...divest itself from gender ideaology."
Most references to women in official medical language are disappearing at an alarming rate ....and also affecting procedural standards of care.
It's taking place on Nov. 3
@@helenablavatsky9136 ... OK. I have reached out to Mr. Benjamin and directed him to this thread. Hopefully he will chime in and speak to a Slightly Twisted Female about it 😸
Church of the Eternal Logos would be a great calmversation too!
Still hoping for a Jay Dyer eppy! Calmversations would be bangin!!!
I love Br Augustine
15:10 I like how hardcore religious ppl sound so much like me, when they discuss religions other than their own, it's tasty, smoky, and delicious. You can't tell that I'm also eating doritos with chipotle salsa right now, so luckily the fourth wall is not broken.
The description of Subud reminds me of My Dinner with Andre, when Andre is talking about the “Beehive” (probably “Be-Hive”; he doesn’t spell it).
God only knows where I'd be without me.
Alarm bells go off in my brain when someone claims to have communicated with gods or devils. I always want the specifics. Because it usually falls apart.
I have, but you weren't a topic of discussion ;-)
@@williambranch4283 Can you explain how exactly you received this communication?
Is there anything for you that doesn't trigger the alarm bells?
@@_BirdOfGoodOmen Bad faith questions.
@@williambranch4283 Thanks for proving my point.
I adore Dennis Prager, but you make a good point.
I'm not religious but I borrow bits and pieces from listening to various believers. Enjoyed the convo, but that relic thing is very peculiar to me.
The framework that Ben puts forward about the crux of being a good person is that you love other people and people love you back applies to Jesus massively. Jesus loves and loved everyone even the haters and most who came into contact with him loved him back. Just because there is an asymmetry of love with Jesus doesn't disprove the theory. I think the pivotal thing is that the love needs to be reciprocal in person not in abstraction, "I hate this Jesus guy who I have never met because of what he stands for". Interpersonal love is an excellent gauge of morality and the right path.
‘I think the pivotal thing is that the love needs to be reciprocal in person, not in abstraction.’
Yeah, I get what you’re saying! It can’t be love (or hate) in relation to a projection, or an idea of a person. It has to make authentic contact.
Does that sound right?
I'm halfway through this, I always appreciate digging into what ppl mean when they allude to their beliefs, so I appreciate this. I just wanna throw this out there, maybe it's obvious but to be clear: if you don't accept that there is a literal physical deity, someplace/somehow, then you're an Atheist. If you're not sure, you're Agnostic. When you're deep into the Christian culture, (ethics etc.) without the actual belief in a deity, you're called either a Christian Atheist, or Christian Agnostic. Ppl might not want to use those terms, but basically that's what they mean. Ppl get caught up in the connotations sometimes, you don't have to be exactly like Christopher Hitchens, to still be an Atheist by definition.
Atheism and Theism deal with belief. If you believe you are a theist. If you do not you are an atheist. Agnosticism and Gnosticism deals with knowledge. Agnostics claim knowledge of the divine is impossible where as Gnostics think its possible to know. So you can be an agnostic atheist, gnostic atheist, agnostic theist, gnostic theist. They are not mutually exclusive.
@@chaucerianfraud6767I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've never seen any strong philosophy around agnostic theism or agnostic atheism. Generally agnosticism is presented as an indifference to the existence of God, as in agnostics don't pronounce themselves on either side of God exists/doesn't. What you're presenting seems to me as an academic difference that isn't present or relevant in most conversations.
@@thomaslacroix6011 agnosticism, (from Greek agnōstos, “unknowable”), strictly speaking, the doctrine that humans cannot know of the existence of anything beyond the phenomena of their experience.
@@chaucerianfraud6767 I understand what you're saying, but I've never seen a truly agnostic theist, in the sense that they claim not to know if God exists or not, besides not being able to prove his existence, so I feel like the distinction between agnostic theism and gnostic theism is not relevant, as agnosticism is by default atheism.
@@thomaslacroix6011 You have never heard a Christian with doubts? That is all it takes.
Leave it two men to forget that Dogma was a Selma Hayek movie.
1:19:25 AGREE for this whole opinion ❤
This is the problem that I have with religious discourse. I carefully describe 25 years of personal experience, and it’s reduced in an instant into a proposition that is merely agreed or disagreed with.
50:33 I'm sure the Austrian painter was very loved by a lot of people and he loved plenty of germans very much, this doesn't seem like a good test.
Hm… I wonder whether the Austrian painter would measure up.
The painter seemed like a dark triad type, or narcissist; thus I doubt he was capable of honest love toward others. He might have achieved a simulacrum of love for others, which he mistook for love.. who knows? I’ve observed that narcissistic supply *can* be mistaken for ‘love’, by narcissists. But it’s not love. And the objects don’t experience it as love.
Likewise, do people feel authentic love toward cult leaders? I doubt it - as they’re typically mislead over the leader’s identity.
Maybe Benjamin’s method requires good discernment in order to be reliable as a personal method. Some minimal amount of ‘dirt’ clouding one’s perception. It doesn’t need to be universalizable to people with shaky discernment, in order to work for someone with good discernment. No?
@@devin_3875 i love my moma very much, if you touch my moma ill send you, your family, your car and your dog to an early journey to heaven, see how it works?
there are heaps upon heaps of people that that did huge mass endings and they were no dark triad anything, if you dont believe the previous example just pick another, leonidas, alexander, vercingetorix, there're too many to count.
Also, lots and lots of people loved the painter with a mad zelot passion, the same kind of love people have for rockstars, its not a very odd thing to happen in history.
At approx 1:37:00. Regarding the apostolic succession or being the continuous church since the times of the apostles. The orthodox church does not resemble the church described in Acts where they shared all things in common and had apostles. Did they have giant cathedrals in the early church? Did they have the liturgy(as now constituted), the Nicene creed, the trinity, icons/saints, etc, etc? What can explain these developments? Could these then be a result of continued revelation which Brother Augustine seems to downplay so frequently in this conversation?
Are you asking because you genuinely want to know or because you think this is some kind of “gotcha” we have no answer for?
Yes the times have changed but the early church was in small places like caves and houses, had icons / paintings all over cave walls. Early church had to go underground because of persecution until Constantine made Christianity legal. Divine Liturgy and much of the church structure comes from second temple era Judaism which was what Christianity was essentially born from. Before Christians were banned from worshiping at synagogues very very early on
"Sex is marriage" is a pretty neat idea.
In the thumbnail your guest is indistinguishable from Sam Bankman-Fried's gf
Has Michael Witcoff (Brother Augustine) commented on the IDF bombing of a Greek Orthodox Church in Gaza?
His channel looks empty these days. What happened to him?
He doesn't speak openly a lot these days, but I can tell you that he certainly doesn't support it. He is absolutely not a Zionist.
"I will ask my spiritual father" at approx 1:24:00. This is all sounds good but at some point someone has to give an answer that was either revealed at some point or will now be revealed. Jesus never addressed the "Subud" practice directly. His spiritual father will need to give a revealed answer right here and now or rely on previous revelation.
Yes, we will rely on “previous revelation” - specifically, the deposit of faith given to the Apostles - as well as basic deductive reasoning, to conclude that a spiritual experience which leads people to different religions and moral codes is not from the Christ Who described Himself as “the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”
Brother Augustine is sincere, but has not given a full account of why he did not convert to Catholicism.
maybe given that he has Christ and the liturgy, as Rome acknowledges, he reasonably concluded that he doesn't need the pope
Canon 6 of the 1st Council of Nicaea, which was approved by the Pope at the time, explicitly limits the Pope’s jurisdiction to Rome. There is no concept in the ancient Church of the Roman Bishop being everyone else’s boss.
@@brotheraugustine 🔥 The true Church follows the early Church. Like our God, it is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." Like St vincent of Lerins says, it believes "what was believed always, everywhere, and by all." Anything else is not the Apostolic deposit of faith.
What happened to his channel?
TLDR: Subud booed.
Regarding orthodoxy downplaying personal revelation. Isn't what Benjamin and Brother Augustine are describing throughout this conversation personal revelation? Isn't coming to being convicted of your own sin through either Benjamin's subud practice or Orthodox Christian prayer/fasting an example of personal revelation? Isn't being humbled by your nothingness compared to God/Jesus a result of personal revelation? Isn't coming to believe in the revelation of Jesus a revelation? Isn't Bro. Augustine's calling to continue to write or figuring out what thesis topic to write about a result of revelation? Isn't day to day life filled continuingly with promptings(revelations) to do this or that?
Regarding "by your fruits you shall know them" and discernment of spirits that started at approx 1:27:00. Bro. Augustine asserts that all spiritual experiences should be distrusted and could come from Lucifer/Satan. Of course, by this logic, it is possible that all revelations to orthodox church fathers, even as a group, could have been Satanic. There is no way to distinguish whether the experiences that Benjamin has been having are any different from the orthodox experiences of the church fathers unless one resorts to, as Jesus recommends, examining the fruits. Jesus, who was also accused of being associated with the devil, recommended examining his fruits to justify himself and his claims. The fruits of Benjamin's practice have been positive as per his own self-report and Bro. Augustine also admits that the Satan-inspired Mormons he knows directly "are some of nicest people I have ever met". If, then, the practices from many religious including Muslims/Hindus in many cases (not all) are leading to positive fruit why then is Bro Augustine so insistent on associating different religious revelations than orthodoxy with the antithesis of good, namely Lucifer/Satan? The seems to contradict Jesus about examining fruits and also Jesus' assertion that Satan cannot cast out Satan(in other words do good. See Mark 3:20-26). Is not God working through all people for the Good whether orthodox or not? Did God not work for the good of people before orthodoxy ever existed or before Jesus was born?
so at 4:30 he proposes "Dogma is an important aspect of faith and our healing". I'm guessing, without watching the rest of this, that he's not going to actually address this.
He'd have to define what Dogma is, without using the word Dogma or any synonym for dogma, which means if Dogma is an aspect of faith, he can't use the word "faith" in the definition; neither can he use the world "healing". And any argument using those words with regards to Dogma is a circular argument.
So yeah, like I won't bother listening to circular arguments as those can go on for hours and get nowhere.
Dogmas are the revealed truths of our faith (or religion, or practice, or Church if you prefer) which place boundaries on the beliefs of its members.
@@brotheraugustine
That's circular reasoning. If you can't see it when it's pointed out then maybe you don't understand what it is.
It may be helpful to learn what it is if you critiqued something you do not believe in. I assume as Christian, you don't believe in the Patriarchy so what's wrong with the following definition?
Patriarchy is the misogeny of straight white christian cis men which grants white privilege to its members.
What do you see wrong with this definition?
@@Teddypally I gave you what you asked for, but it seems you’re still not satisfied.
@@brotheraugustine
I asked for a definition that isn't circular and you did not provide it.
I'm satisfied you don't know what that is, if that helps. I'm satisfied you don't want to know what that means. I'm satisfied you rely on circular definitions to explain your lack of understanding. I'm satisfied this conversation can go nowhere. I'm satisfied any more time spent is wasted.
So, yes, I am satisfied. Thank you for your response.
Dogma means "teaching"