Bojack Horseman - Let's Talk About Diane Nguyen
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Season 4 of Bojack Horseman turned a lot of people's opinions sour on this character. It's got me thinking...
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I realize that I probably didn't make this clear, but the point of this video was not to point out that Diane is a horrible Person, but rather to explain why the season 4 ending made many people dislike her. Of course, to do that, I had to demonstrate many negative traits about Diane as well as show positive traits of Mr. PB. I do have my opinions about whose more at fault for this relationship falling apart and will gladly discuss them, but for this video I mainly just wanted to show a perspective that some weren't seeing.
The comments defending Diane should be an indication that the video attacked her character unfairly, whatever your original intentions. The fault isn't with the commentators for seeing what's there rather than what you say you intended.
I fail to see how a comment that states "the intent of the video may not have been clear" translates to me putting fault on commentators. If anything, I'm admitting to a mistake on my end.
This video derives from many conversations I had on reddit about this specific topic and was moreso made for that crowd, that's why when making the video I didn't expand on Diane as much as I could've. When it started gaining attention outside that community, I noticed that many were missing the context, so I pinned this comment explaining it to them. It wasn't to blame them, it was to give them information that I assumed my audience would already have.
If you feel Diane's been attacked unfairly in the video, that's fine and I'm willing to read any comment that explains why they feel that way, but the current comments defending her are not an indication of the conclusions you've stated. Some people agree with you that I've been unfair, some defend her but still agree with me, and others just want to expound on the conversation.
I don't think Diane was attacked too unfairly, she is at fault, so is Mr PB. All that the video said about her character was true, and even more negative things can be said.
Also the video acknowledges that Mr PB had negative impacts too but the focus of the video was Diane's journey.
i don't see why you're getting annoyed against the creator of this video. There's no defamation being said about diane. And tbh, imo diane is the worst person in the show atm.
I appreciate it. Some of those points hadn't occurred to me.
Honestly, I haven't exactly disliked Diane so much as I've been confused. I don't get her motivation for a lot of what she does. Why did she hide at Bojack's house and why does she focus on the negative?
I think the episode in season one in which we meet Diane's family explains a lot about why she hates grand gestures and surprises. As a teenager, she is made to believe that this great guy outside her cruel family is kind to her and will show her real love. But then it turns out to be an inhumanely disgusting prank her brothers pulled on her. It must have been so traumatizing for her that she can't trust herself to be too happy or she will be tricked again.
I honestly can't bring myself to hate or even be annoyed by Diane. She's a character who has "her shit together" on the outside, but is a human being like everyone else.
It's perfectly fine if you don't hate Diane. The purpose of this video was just to present a perspective that many weren't seeing. I'm just hoping you can understand why others are starting to.
Yes, of course. I thought you presented a very valid point that people were starting to see Diane's flaws and reacting to them. My comment was mostly to explain why I don't personally hate her to the people in the comments, not you directly.
Anyone can hate or not hate whatever character they want as long as they present valid arguments. I don't know how you feel about her, but I think you gave a very middle of the road point of view to either side (hate or the non-hate).
I also liked the editing at the end of the video juxtaposing season 4 Diane with season 1 Diane. It's a very good video overall.
I Personally side with those who are starting to dislike Diane, however, I'm finding that there's an underlying reason as to why people are disagreeing on this subject. I plan on posting a video about it within the coming weeks.
I'm glad you appreciate the editing. This video, as a whole, was experimentation. I'm usually very excited in my editing and make a lot more jokes, generally dealing with children cartoons. But since I was tackling a mature show, I thought I'd try something more somber and it appears to have attracted a lot or people.
NinjaInConverse I fell in love with a girl like Diane and I find her a relatable character as well. I just got out of the relationship and she blocked me from everything recently and I've been pretty upset about it. Watching this show and her character was too much of a coincidence for me.
I watched that episode too, and her abusive family has done other horrible things to her (although that horrible prank was the worst of all of them).
It is like with Bojack's family, both families programmed them during all their young years to think that they are dirt, good for nothing people who came to this world to feel miserable, make others happy even if they don't want It because they "own" them, and if they want to be happy, they won't.
That could also explain why Diane can feel insecure and think that she doesn't deserve recognition, prizes nor any other thing that can make her happy.
To make clear, I don't hate her, it would be like hating the other characters when in reality, everyone is human with both qualities and flaws. No one is neither a hero nor a villain.
"I'm so tired of squinting" summed up my entire marriage. I wish I discovered this show when my marriage was really tanking. I could have saved myself so much abuse and heartache.
I think a lot of people are doing Diane wrong by saying she is ungrateful for the library.
This library is not what she wanted and it shows, how Mr. Peanutbutter doesn't get her at all and never really listens. As he never did with any of his wives.
She kept repeating herself, how she doesn't like grand gestures, how she doesn't like surprises, and he build a big fake library like a film setting, completely missing the point.
I comopletely understand that this makes her feel sad and disconnected, and it's sad for me, that so many don't relate to her.
season 1: why is diane with mr. peanutbutter? she could do so much better
season 4: why is mr. peanutbutter with diane? he could do so much better
Exacly
I see Diane as the most human character in the whole series. She has a relatively sad and difficult past, she has her way of thinking, always neutral to everything, a brilliant personality, and at the same time she is full of defects. I really love Diane, and I think people should have a more open mind to understand the importance of her in Bojack Horseman.
Diane doesn’t believe she deserves happiness and when she gets it every fiber of her being fights it to return to the status quo
Honestly, Dianne’s actions are heartbreaking. But I don’t hold it against her. This show is about damaged people. Dianne is depressed, no way around it. Even the good doesn’t phase her. As someone who’s known and dated people with depression, it’s really something they just can’t help. In the end it’s their responsibility to take the steps they need to heal. But still
She became disenchanted with the plasticity of her Hollywoo life, so she left it only to find that her dream job was every bit as plastic. This season, she finally confronted the true plasticity of her marriage. It's built on big visible gestures with minimal substance. Mr. Peanutbutter doesn't need her, and she doesn't need him. They may enjoy each other and even love each other, but they don't need each other. The books are fake, in every sense.
Brandon Kathman thank you, it's just like a rom-com romance movies that hollywood sells to you. Two people who "love" each other and it's all just grand gestures-devoid of moments of sincerity and real actual sentimental understanding. (Typically, but not all) were sold in the fantasy alone of it all being one big spectacle. Yet in reality, those types of relationships like in the Notebook and twilight, are not only toxic. But would crumble under real and complicated circumstances. I believe we expect "it all to work out just for the sake of us projecting ourselves onto it" but again it never always does.
This!
He bought fake books, its not a library. Plus in general he has never listened to her. They were doomed ever since him putting their engagement on reality tv and having a party
And yet she agreed to the marriage ,,, like most of us in real world,,,, what we want and desire deludes us into doing things we know are not in our real best interest
Milomondo
true that. Ig Mr.peanutbutter wanted to give Diane a Chance to live out one of her fantasy's but didn't know what she likes. How awkward would it be for her to take out a book only for it to be filled with Doggie Pr0n
and yet when they got divorced, she spoke bad on him cuz she was jealous and he moved on. When she was da one dat wanted da divorce. and a marriage is about communication and patience. he wanted to fix things even when it was tough. she just rsn and also wanted to claim him. she is a mess in my pov
Just a quick criticism - Diane's "important job" on Secretariat was telling people to watch out for a wire on the floor. Not exactly a compelling job to have.
Also, RIP Debra's face.
Truth. That is actually worth pointing out.
She was originally hired to be the fact consultant for Secretariat because she wrote the biography.
uncensored008 Yeah, but I think the point they are making is that I was pointing out several things in Diane's life that were going right, but leaving out the part where her important job is a farce is a detail that could be meaningful to anyone who opposes my side of the argument.
It was an important job to Debra's face apparently >_>
Also wasn't her job at some point running social media for other people? or am I thinking of another season?
I think that Diane was a bit stunted with her emotional growth and maturity, much like Bojack. To those who say that she's an ingrate and doesn't deserve Mr. Peanutbutter, her lack of interest in grand gestures is because she grew up as the hardest working member of her family and was constantly belittled and berated. When her family found out (courtesy of Bojack) that she was living "rent free" with Mr. Peanutbutter (her boyfriend at the time), her whole family laughed and made fun of her for being a free-loader who doesn't have her shit together. Mr. Peanutbutter's constant desire to buy things for Diane and have her be dependent on him, in my opinion, causes her huge anxiety because even Diane herself said she's still trying to seek the approval of her family. Mr. Peanutbutter also has a problem, and he has made it clear on several occasions that Diane's fiercely independent mind and attitude, and desire for a career makes him worried, that she'll "get bored and leave him for the next big thing like his other ex-wives" which is why he wanted to have Diane well-represented in the new house he was buying, to try and entice her to stay. Mr. Peanutbutter tries to over-compensate to keep Diane interested and stick around because he has anxiety over his previous marriages. He's a 47 year old man and this is his third marriage, he's barely keeping his Hollywood career and business intact, he never had a family, and the little bit of family he does have lives way out Northeast in Labrador (a Canadian province). Both he and Diane most likely suffer from some form of depression, but just have been dealing with it in different ways. Diane pushes people away and doesn't care if she makes people dislike her, and Mr. Peanutbutter is constantly trying to make people like him and wears a mask of constant positivity.
I don't think Mr PB wears a mask, I think he is the most obvious character, he does what he says and thinks, what you see is what you get. Diane on the other hand does try to make herself something else, she obviously has tried super hard to get over her issues, but having shitty families fuck you up real bad, and specially fuck up the way you react to love. She really doesn't seem to know what to do with loving gestures because she never got them as a kid, her reality was always getting belittle by her family so in contrast great devotion seems fake to her. She also seem to be having great identity crisis, at season one she thought she was a person who got their shit together, but after kordova she had to face the fact that she wasnt the person she thought she was or the person she thouht she could be. She hasnt come to terms with the fact that getting what you always wanted wont always make you happy (in the same way as Bojack). People should also take into account that she is the youngest character along with Todd, the crises that the other characters like bojack or princess have been dealing with all these years are a new thing to her. I think she is very interesting and cool character but would hate her as a real person.
indigothecat what a fantastic comment
Well tbf supporting him resulted in their home being fracked and killing several major celebrities, while also crushing the hand of the current mayor, that saved them. So yeah, supporting him was an objectively bad idea - he may TRY to please others, but the intent does not change the content of his actions.
@Yaniv Proselkov
"Well tbf supporting him resulted in their home being fracked"
That happened because of the article Diane wrote.
"he may TRY to please others, but the intent does not change the content of his actions."
But it does make him seem more likeable than Diane who doesn't try to please others.
uanime1 the article though, was designed to minimise his chances of election, which as evidenced by his terrible leadership skills, would still be an awful thing
It's almost like Diane is supposed to be a flawed character or something
He never said that was a bad thing
For some reason, some people only like male characters who are flawed. Like, I don't know, the main character of this show.
There's a difference between being flawed and being unlikeable.
Exactly, that's the whole point of it, almost all characters in the show are after all...
The difference is that "unlikable" isn't a trait. It just means you don't like her. Someone else may love the same character you hate.
i like her. it makes me sad to hear that people "can't stand her"
shes very human
shes relatable
Nasus Kim what do you mean she's very human what does being human mean to you
Imagine their all taking the role of the protagonist Bojack and all feel vicariously scorned by her relationship with this Mr PeanutButter doofus
I agree. I get bummed out when people call her a bitch to like who has she been a bitch to?!?!
She's an absolute bitch. There is not a single character in this show that is as ungrateful or mean-spirited as her. At least BoJack has come to terms with it which makes him way more relatable than her. It's quite a feat to be able to write a character THIS shitty.
I really understand what you're saying, she has this human caracteristic that sometimes dont let us see whats we're doing wrong, and when you can't ignore the shit, to become the victim and blaming others its always easier than try to fix ourselves
"Either you know what you want, and then you don't get what you want. Or you get what you want, and then you don't know what you want."
Life in a nutshell
Why’d he heart this lol y’all just hate Diane because she says what she feels. Mr.Peanutbutter doesn’t understand her, and when she’s upset about it, she says it. She’s not “ungrateful”, she’s honest and people assume that she’s the problem.
@@Jackie-jf2hy That's what it is - she speaks her mind and people don't like what she has to say. They think her feelings are somehow less valid than the feelings of characters like PB and BJ. It's easier for them to just sit there and complain about her than try to understand her point of view.
*has some character flaws* *loses respect and misses the point of every diane storyline*
It's because the character flaw she possesses is hypocrisy. That is an unlikeable trait whether you put it on a hero, villain, or average person.
"The only vice that cannot be forgiven is hypocrisy. The repentance of a hypocrite is itself hypocrisy" - William Hazlitt
It's not that people miss the point, it's that they're more upset at the flaw than they are appreciative of the point.
So because she's flawed we are not allowed to criticize her character? Also because she is unlikable that means we "miss the point of every storyline" she has? Are we only allowed to like her to understand her storylines or something?
I've re watched the entire series a few times and I can't see how hypocrisy is an exclusive personality trait of hers.
as daniel says.
DarynLuna You still haven't answered me wtf??
it amazes me that no one understands that last scene with PB and Diane, its not that she does not want to be happy, its that PB cant make her happy cause they have vastly different ideas of happiness. PB forces himself to be happy for the sake of being happy and Diane cant live like that, this scene was Diane's realization that this "happy" marriage that she has been trying to force for so long (for the sake OF PB mind you) is not a lie she can keep on living.
PB doesn't really force himself to be happy, it's just that happiness comes to him very easily. He does avoid negative atmospheres, though.
Shady Doorags PB says that life is meaningless and all can we do is distract ourselves until we die. Do you think that's happiness ?
No. I plan on making videos later about what the show believed happiness is, but for my own Personal opinions, long story short, I believe happiness is achieved by being thankful. When you learn to appreciate what you have, including the ability to improve your situation, you start seeing things very differently.
Everyone understand that kiddo, but she is still an ingrate.
Due to her utterly abusive and loveless childhood she is consistently detached and depressed. Mr. PB and Diane's little getaway to a crappy motel in the middle of the pacific ocean meant a lot to her; it wasn't supposed to be a heartfelt experience because it simply evolved into that naturally. Unlike the "Belle Room" situation she didn't feel like she was put on the spot to act like she was happy, because she simply was.
Mr. PB is, in a very private way, suffering from abandonment issues due to his previous marriages. He wants Diane to be an inseparable part of his life; he wants Diane's life and his own to be connected in the deepest way imaginable so that the two can't function without one another. A lot of marriages can function like this healthily for decades but it all depends on the type of individual going into the marriage. Diane is an irreversible introvert and individual; she is extremely self-obsessed in a very non-egotistical way which makes it impossible for her to simply sacrifice part of her own identity to become a singular unit. I would argue that this mentality is inevitable for someone who grew up surrounded by a family that didn't love or support her in the slightest.
In the end, she's terrified of being happy because she think it means her self awareness has dulled and she's ignoring the negatives. I'm actually reminded of a more comedic character; Gob from Arrested Development. He suffers daily because his family has never loved or supported him but as soon as somebody shows any level of unconditional love or support he turns away because it's awkward and uncomfortable for him, just as it is for Diane when the love feels forced or unnatural.
Someone who gets it.
Nicely put. I feel like I should make another video about Diane's character in general. The focus of this particular video was simply to show a side of the fandom so it does paint a specific picture of Diane that many have found to be biased. There is a lot more to this character than this video showcases and I feel many thinks that this view of her limits the potential depth of her character.
PalladiumCupcakes 👏👏👏👏👏😥 so beautiful
PalladiumCupcakes you know that the guy who played Gob does Bojack’s voice, right?
PalladiumCupcakes This makes a lot of sense. I can relate to this. It's like when bullies are suddenly apologizing. I get skeptical when that happens. I feel that they really don't mean it.
I'm going to explain something that people don't seem to understand. Mr PB did NOT make that grand gesture to make her happy. Nothing he does is to make her happy. He did it because he believes if he can make her feel at home, she will not leave like his other wives have. That is his point. He repeatedly ignores Diane's true feelings and decides to head the easy way. Diane has repeatedly said she does not like grand gestures and he keeps using them. It's like buying a piano for someone who not only can't play, but doesn't want to learn.
I'm happily married to someone like Diane who can't tolerate grand gestures and I made the same mistake Mr PB made in teh beginning. I thought she wanted gestures. They don't. Since they had a family who never did anything for them, having someone who is willing to give them big things, especially material things, is not only uncomfortable, is overwhelming and not well received. EVER. They have been together for seven years and he still doesn't know what makes her happy.
Another thing is the "Uhhh, Diane came back and didn't tell her husband". Yes, because she was going to when he started saying he was very proud of her and all that, after he was the one who got rid of her when she became a problem for his reputation. If you have a family who never approved of you and a husband who tells you he's proud of you and that you are doing good things, loosing that sense of validation might not be something you want to stand.
Honestly, most people just hate Diane 'cause they love MrPB blindly and they think he's a good husband. He's not, a good husband wouldn't do something as empty as fill a library with fake books. I mean, don't you even know what your wife likes to read?
A Person who does something to make someone feel at home is not mutually exclusive to a Person who does something who wants to make someone happy.
Whether or not Diane lying to Mr. PB was the right thing to do is not the point being made. The point is, Diane, herself, believed it was wrong and yet did it anyway. A Person who does something they know is wrong elicits less sympathy than a Person who does something wrong, thinking it's right.
From what I've seen, most people are willing to admit that Mr. PB has his share of flaws, but there are people who see intent as an important factor, and to those people, Mr. PB stands higher because he's constantly trying. Yes, he's also constantly failing and many acknowledge that, but they also acknowledge that he refuses to stop trying to improve, even if he sucks at it. Despite admitting that he's an old dog who doesn't change, he still tries with good intentions. Diane has, on multiple occasions, given in to actions she believes to be wrong.
Diane’s dislike for “grand gestures” is really just another way of pushing Mr. PB away. I personally believe she is just internally miserable and doesn’t know what she wants in life. She says she wants to help others and doing important work, but she shies away from helping others when it becomes hard for her and sticks to a meaningless job blogging about mensural cups.... she says she wants a supportive family, but continues to seek validation from a family that doesn’t love her, while pushing away her husband who does love and validated her. Her husband is hopelessly tying to support her and make her happy, and she lies on him, hides from him in Bojack’s house, pushes him away, discourages his passions, and complains.. constantly. If Mr. PB wasn’t the type of person she wanted in a relationship (his hopeless optimism, ignorance of her issues she cares about) then she shouldn’t have married him. But she did. He likes parties, he likes doing big things to show love, he doesn’t know or care about social justice. Why did she marry him if she were going to complain that he had these qualities that he already had? Self sabotage? I don’t get it.
I don’t think Mr. PB is a shinning model of a husband either, especially his fear of conflict, and inappropriate optimism, or how he shows love in “his” way, but ignores what Diane “really” wants.... But at least he tries. He tries very hard,... When has Diane ever done anything for Mr. PB? She discouraged his presidential campaign, lied to him for over a year about going to another country to “help others”, and when her husband asked gently if she could not blow up a controversial issue that may ruin his career, goes and does it anyway, due to her persistent need to be “right”.
They’re just not good for each other, and I can’t believe I’m all full of emotion over these cartoons, but I’ve seen this shit play out in real life.
Kæla Brown The reasons you fall in love with someone are the same reasons you fall out of love with them. A trait that seems exciting and fresh at first becomes annoying and troublesome later, something that isn't an issue while dating starts to affect your life while married. If a partner is more outgoing than you and forces you on adventures, it may be alluring at first but will become exhausting and burdensome later. Especially if you make attempts to communicate, compromise, or change for them, and they do none f the same for you. Especially after years of marriage.
As for Diane not liking huge gestures and still seeking approval from her family....you clearly didn't grow up in a family like that, did you? We seek approval from our abusive families because it's all we know and a part of us will always want them to love, approve of us, or be proud of us, even when logically we know we shouldn't care and try not to. When you're raised in that situation it becomes a core part of you and every emotional relationship you will ever have is shaped by it. I do genuinely believe she hates grand gestures specifically because of that upbringing; when you have a family where the only time attention is on you is when you're being humiliated or singled out, you're being mentally conditioned to have an aversion to it. From an objective standpoint it seems that when her emotional reaction is the focus she has trouble performing; she can handle talking about her work on TV but she can't handle having to act happy or surprised in happy moments, probably because to her the grand surprises feel manufactured and like she's being forced to perform, but also because due to her upbringing, a healthy or loving situation where somebody wants to give her a grand surprise in the first place feels borderline alien to her.
And I doubt she wants him to care about social justice at the level she does, but she does, on some level, expect him to care about certain values and back her up when she's trying to do something really good. She's not pushing him to join picket lines and in depth discussions about social issues, but she at least wants him to recognize right from wrong and care about it in certain situations where he just doesn't.
In my case, I see in her both qualities and flaws like with a real person, so there are moments where you can like her and others when you dislike her.
About the big gestures, I can understand: she has told him many, many times that she doesn't want them, but he doesn't listen and does them.
However, I have perceived moments when she wants to be contradicted, to make things a debate, a discussion. And even though she can have a better life or get what she wants, she is still unhappy.
I love them both though.... I honestly didn't hate Diane, I actually hated Mr PB more so for what he did, he knew she doesn't like grand gestures like the Belle Room, but he did it anyway to make himself feel better, believing that Diane wouldn't leave him. But at the same time, I feel as though they know they're complete opposites and the idea of "Opposites Attract" is BS, it's just PB doesn't want someone who loves to just fade away out his memory.
I had this small theory that possibly Mr. PB has short term memory lose and the way he coups with that is he tries to hold on, but once it leaves him, he starts to forget. He remembers the bad times and never the good, which makes me believe that he saw Diane as his own anchor to reality but now that she's gone, he's scared and needs someone new in his life to anchor him down. But of course Pickles might seem perfect.. too perfect to the point where he's looking at a mirror of himself, which is why he goes back to Diane.
PB is scared and he doesn't know why, he needs Diane but of course Diane has moved on.
He's not a terrible husband, but he's not a great one either. He's just a man scared of what his future might hold for him and Diane is the only thing keeping him safe but even she's wanting to move past him.
Before hating Diane, people need to understand the complicated psychology behind children who grew up without secure attachments. You grow up displaying confusing behavior because you grew up in a confusing environment
Why everybody hates Diane. She is constantly evolving and doing the right way. Sure she doesn't have her shit together but she learns from her failure.
Honestly, I kinda wonder if this is why some people don't like her. I can't say I hate her but I've definitely disliked her at points and it's part of it for me. Easy to recognize all the flaws in a fictional character and see how they could be addressed but it gets compoundingly more frustrating when you can't display the same clarity in real life but recognize you have similar tendencies. For some she may be a displacement of inward frustration.
Or even outward. She's realer than the other characters and most people can probably recall interacting with someone like her. Most of the characters are anthropomorphized animals so that creates a level of removal. Then there's Todd...but he's pretty out there. We encounter Dianes in our world and the process of getting close to them for them to pull away or try to help them when its seemingly impossible can leave a mark on people. I think she just strikes a chord with people that a middle aged, famous horse or spaghetti strainer wielding lab can't hit in the same way.
Old is Gold
I think it’s because she’s an extremely flawed character yet she keeps carrying this holier-than-thou, condescending attitude. It really comes off as hypocritical and downright annoying sometimes, and what’s worse is that the writers themselves believe she to be the ‘moral compass’ of the main cast (probably because she is the feminist political mouthpiece of the show) when season 5 has proved that that is absolutely not the case.
I think everyone (besides Todd) is equally shitty in their own rights, yet everyone BUT Diane has to face the repercussions of their actions. Is it because her views on issues align with the writers’? Who knows. I just hope they do her character justice because she really has the potential to be a well written character.
Notting They did. Someone else did an updated analysis. Diane is supposed to be a hypocrite and much of her misery comes from knowing that she is.
@@notting2640 That's the genius of her character, I think: the repercussions of her actions are usually her own self-hatred. Ultimately, she works hard on herself and sees positive results.
Isn't that what we're all striving for?
i love diane tbh, writers rarely write likeable female characters. but i like her she’s realistic
As someone pointed out you can be relasitic and not liking. If she was a money grabbing whore that's relasitic. But it's not likeable
@@MasterofVirology But Diane is really likeable.
I liked her, too. I understood her frustration Mr. Peanutbutter completely. People say, "he was just trying to do something nice, she's so ungrateful!!".
Neglecting to see that Mr. PB is shallow and naive. He heard, "I liked the Belle room" and made her one, completely missing the whole point of the conversation. I found Mr. PB to be one of the most frustrating characters of the show.
@@diy_cat9817 hi, can you explain the point he missed? Bc I might of missed it too... Bc when I was watching the scene, I found myself being one of the many who sided with Mr. PB. I’m glad they ended their relationship, since throughout it they loved each other, but the weren’t compatible. I really agree with all the points made in the video, and that last question. Would Diane think she’s a good person? Bc I agree with a lot of her outright actions. She speaks for issues she believes in. And I would probably do things similar to her if I were in those situations, but I feel like her good beliefs doesn’t make her a good person. Like the video said, she and BJ are a lot alike, though I find myself liking BJ as a person more since he admits he’s not good. And I feel later in the seasons he changes for the good, even if the change is small. But Diane seems to have the same faults throughout.
Though I’m on S5 so things might change
Y'know, there's a long history of guys calling women "ungrateful" for not reacting favorably to unexpected and unasked for romantic gestures and large gifts, and it's not a pleasant one.
She didn't take a positive and turn it into a negative. She has spent the whole season trying to deal with a husband who doesn't *really* listen to her. And I like mr. Peanutbutter. I think he's trying but...not really. He's always looking for the easiest way to make people like him (that doesnt involve any difficult conversations), and he will put his wife on hold to please other people, even people he doesn't know.
She's told him before she doesn't like big gestures. That's not just a casual statement--big gestures make her feel bad, make her feel guilty because she can't fake enthusiasm for things she doesn't want. He gave her something that looked good on the surface, but ignored everything else she had told him.
Except she is ungreatful. Mr peanut butter just openly forgives her for lying to him for 3 months and secretly living at bojacks. She ignores his pleaing for her to stay in the county and she starts a fight over some dead celbraty and the fact he though a party after spending the perfect day with her because he wanted some fun for himself. She never acknowlages that she isnt the 'strong idependant woman' she thinks she is; she lives rent free with her boyfriend for years and im certain Mr peanut butter still pays all the bills for the house they share.
I know she dosent like big gestures. But Mr peanut butter puts up with so much shit from her... She could at least show some gratatude...
@@timeenoughatlast3368 And Diane doesn't put up with shit from PB? xD Filling the house with spaghetti strainers, running for governor, fracking on their property and getting them and all their close friends almost killed?
I think you miss the point of the dead celebrity thing, dude. She didn't start a fight. It escalated to a fight because PB kept undermining her infront of all of their friends when she was stating a FACT that she was confident she didn't have to look up. How would you feel if you were telling someone something you were 100% sure about and your spouse kept saying "idk if that's true" over and over? No doubt you'd flip on them, I feel like most of us would.
THANK YOU
Dianne liked the idea of the Belle Room because it was something that was only hers in her mind. "Something that belonged to me"
Mr. Peanut butter also completely misses the point of the Belle Room, filling it with fake books.
Sure he listened to her, but he didn't really read between the lines. This reflects their relationship and world views.
While Mr. Peanut butter sees the world on the surface, Diane constantly delves much deeper into meanings/morals of things. This causes a lot of friction in their marriage.
They're just... Not compatible.
I think almost everything you said is true, however, this video is moreso asking the question of "why do a lot of people side against Diane rather than just coming to the conclusion that it's simply a bad relationship?" I think the reason for that is, while it is quite possible that they just aren't compatible,a lot of people feel Mr. PB is trying harder than Diane. Not that Diane isn't trying, she's certainly tolerated her share of Mr. PB's mistakes, but that defining moment in season 2 where Diane lied to Mr. PB for months, knowing it was wrong, and then to have Mr. PB not only forgive her, but make her feel better about her decision, showed that if Diane messes up, Mr. PB will try to focus on the good, whereas when Mr. PB tries to do something good, Diane tends to focus on the bad. Rather than feeling bad for Diane, people feel bad that Mr. PB's efforts goes to waste.
Shady Doorags he bought her fake books, something she'd hate.
SmileSadly LaughLoudly He's still trying, which is the point I was making.
Shady Doorags But he really isn't, in fact he's not trying at all, which is the whole point. His character is a dog for a reason, because dogs are loyal and only want to please their master. They live to please, and that's Mr PB in a nutshell. But he does it because, just like a dog, that's all he really knows. He goes out of his way for his own selfish reasons, for self satisfaction, just like how a trained dog expects a treat. Everything he does is to please others because he gets that treat, the self satisfaction, but it's never out of sacrifice or genuine concern, it's pure reaction and self indulgence. Diane wants more than to be taken care of, she wants to be understood and loved, something that PB, being a people pleaser, simply cannot do past a purely superficial level. In a grand twist of irony, despite PB's seemingly perfect life compared to Bojack's misery, PB never learned to suffer, and thus never fully developed empathy for others, stunting him emotionally, and is catching up to him now. He never takes anything seriously and ignores or blows off any challenge that would force him to grow as a person. Mr PB is going to suffer because he never suffered.
TL;DR: PB doesn't try at all, he simply does what is in his nature.
Dr. Fumbles Failing to make someone purely happy does not equate to not trying to do it. You're right in that Mr. PB does not understand how to make someone truly happy because it's in his nature to understand superficial pleasure, but that doesn't mean he isn't trying.
He heard Diane say that he never listens, that's why he tried to listen to her in the last episode of S4. When Diane says " I don't like big gestures like this, how many times have I told you?" his response is "Yes, but this time it's different." He thought he had improved.
Not to mention, Mr. PB's first two wives left him for reasons he's apparently still trying to figure out. So he's not only trying to improve based on what Diane has said, but also what happened with his past wives. It's why he did the library gesture in the first place. He wanted Diane to feel at home, not be a guest. That is not a superficial feeling, it's just a real feeling that Diane doesn't prioritize.
If Mr.Peanutbutter could understand that Diane much rather like small gestures with deep meanings, he would have given her something that really speaks to her. Like, alright not a library with FAKE books, it just feels staged with no meaning other than to look great on the outside. A gift that would have been good for Diane but with some Peanutbutter-like gesture would be like, a Beauty and the Beast picture book, and on each page has Diane's face as Bell and Mr.Peanutbutter as the Beast (Which could have made a chuckle from Diane). And then, Mr.Peanutbutter just closes the book and looks at her saying something like: "Diane, unlike that story, I don't want you to feel like a guest in our house. I want this to be something we build together." And then Mr.Peanutbutter shows her a single book shelf, empty. He stands from the sofa and puts the one book on the shelf. And then proceeds to tell Diane that this is her book shelf, you can put what ever book she wants to make her own "Diane-room".
kamy2425
Perfect
That's fucking adorable.
I always figured that Mr. Peanutbutter was too much of an asshole for that. A small gesture that was intimate could be rejected. If THAT were rejected he couldn't deflect it and be in control by using guilt and playing the victim. Mr. Peanutbutter is more about posturing than intimacy. So, obviously, Diane is left feeling unfulfilled. I like the "i don't want to feel like a guest in our house" statement. It's got some weight to it. Sorry if I'm all over the place...
Bruh, are you single
kamy2425 AWWWW THAT WOULD BE SO CUTE
I think Diane's breakdown was more because of the fact that Mr. Peanutbutter loves her so much its overwhelming. Everything he does is overwhelming. It gives pressure for her to give back, makes her question her worth and if she really deserves all this(when she herself thinks she only deserves what she'd worked for), it restrains her from showing PB her bad side(season2) because he either might get overwhelmingly worried or sad for her. Having someone see you as their world, you could see them throwing themselves away so you could be happy, them giving you all they have with nothing left for themselves is a huge pressure especially if youre someone as independent as her and in the end, youre gonna be seen as ungrateful. All those things piling up can make someone break. All that love could be suffocating.
I love Dianne as a character, I think that the reason people are turning on Dianne because she is the most realistic character in the show. Of all the characters in the show she is the only one who is not aware of who she really is. Mr peanut butter has always had an established identity and so has bojack (though he hates and doesn't address it) and Todd and CP. Dianne though started out as a struggling writer trying to make a living then all of a sudden she gets what she wants and realizes that it is not fulfilling. The fallout of this has been the second half of the series where she's attempted to find herself but still can't find it. Like I said I love her as a character because she like almost everyone else is still trying to find out who they really are.
I agree. Diane has the worst foundation. Bojack's and Beatrice are bigger jerks, but they stand by their jerkiness and face that they are horrible people. Diane doesn't. She sways, hence the apparent hypocrisy.
Diane isn't the only character not aware of who they are. PC definitely isn't, and we will see that in season 6 when she has to decide between working and raising her child.
Same with Mr PB. In S5 we see just how messed up he is. He doesn't realize his unwillingness to change is what pushes everyone away. He's gunna have to address that with Pickles next season.
Also, end of S5 is really when Bojack realizes how bad he's become. Before that, I'd say he knew but didn't know how far off the deep end he could go.
I know the vid was made a year ago before S5 was dropped tho! I'm just saying is all. :P
Season 5 I think really brought into light the relationship between Mr. P and Diane. She wasn't upset to the point of dumping him because he made a grand gesture-it was merely the final push in their frustrating marriage. Mr. P does grand gestures and loves his wives and may mean well, but he refuses to listen to the needs of his partners unless they align with his own. The parties, the cameras, the big Hollywoo lifestyle, none of it is something Diane wants. Perhaps she shouldn't have dated Mr. P at all since they're incompatible, but neither are very open to change. Diane does it in small bits, like trying to support his campaign and trying to go to parties for him, but he never really stops doing the things she repeatedly asks him to.
I feel like people forget this part a lot and unfairly judge her.
If it seems like someone is breaking down over one small thing, everyone probably missed the million other small things that were building up to it
MacabreMavens the problem is she tends to think she is a moral compass.
@@imspoon7188 And that's one of her flaws. Wild, right? Good thing Bojack is a show about severely-flawed main characters.
@@xoTalim
A character being flawed doesn't necessarily excuse criticism
Part of me wants to think she makes herself miserable because she's used to being miserable and doesn't know how to react when things are good, so she messes things up because in her mind, it's going to happen anyway why make it drag out longer?
Idk. Mabye it's just me projecting myself onto Diane...
No, that's pretty much her entire character broken down. Her bad childhood made her into a ungrateful, narcissistic brat who is too shallow to admit this to herself, yet deep enough to criticise others for that very behavior she herself is guilty of. Is it her fault? No. Does it excuse her behavior? No. She, like the vast majority of people, can dish out, but can't take in equal measure. That is the one quality Bojack has over Diane. He's a piece of shit, but at least he knows it, in his rare lucid moments. Diane knows but is too much of a coward to admit it to herself, much less do anything about it.
So many long comments, so here's a short comment.
@God k
" "
Pog
You say she doesn't want to be happy, you say she puts negative spins on positive situations, but you're assuming that what other people say is happiness is happiness to Diane. Your "positive situations" are negative situations to her. She's not putting negative spins on them, they just are negative from her point of view.
The problem isn't "grand gestures". The problem is that she loved the Belle Room because it was in her imagination and therefore, only hers. When Mr. Peanutbutter brings it into reality, it loses its value to her. She feels she's being heard, but not listened to. Which is right. She tells Mr. Peanut Butter that the value of the Belle Room is in the fact that she made it up and it's in her mind, but he just hears that it's valuable and assumes she must want it tangibly.
She does like grand gestures. She likes the idea of an ipod with her favourite podcasts, a scrapbook with all the intimate emails and texts of a relationship, a big, grand, romantic night in that proves that she's with someone who KNOWS her. Diane doesn't want support. She wants to be known and understood. That's why she hates her family--they don't understand what it must be like to look at the world from her perspective. They don't know her perspective.
That's why she likes BoJack. He knew instantly because they're very alike.
Mr. Peanutbutter knows her, but he often forgets and assumes that the cheesy things that "everyone must like" or that his ex. wives liked, that the press likes, that he likes, are things that Diane will like. He's very much like a dog. If something makes him happy he wants to share it, thinking it will make everyone happy.
Diane wants a personal touch. Proof that she's being listened to.
She wants intimate knowledge. That's why she made that intimate scene with the candles for Mr. Peanutbutter. When she could remember every little fact about Mr. Peanut for his game show, she proved that she knew him in a very intimate way.
But he just assumes she wants a big birthday party because everyone likes parties. It's what you do when it's someone's birthday. He's rich, he loves her, he wants to spoil her, but he spoils her with extravagance when she just wants to be spoiled with intimacy.
She winds up in situations that everyone else says should be positive situations, but when she tries to convey that to her, she's in a negative situation, people accuse her of looking to pick fights, to be sad. She's already sad, it really is a negative situation to her. She doesn't have to look. She just can't get people to understand that and it's frustrating for her.
+Emily Sew
YES on wanting to be "spoiled with intimacy". I feel like a lot of people want to be known in that way by their partner. That's a really great way to verbalize that need.
Also YES on being depressed and trying to point out a problem, but being told you're being "too negative". Sigh. Diane certainly faces a tough crowd.
Thank you. I feel like I know Diane so I guess I just could put the feeling into words.
Notice how only women who are clearly very self-important (your post makes it clear) are defending diane lol
Mr. Peanut Butter is so annoying in this season. If this is the side of him his two first wives had to endure, then it's no wonder they left. Diane doesn't need/want grand gestures to be fulfilled. She has the ability to get those things herself. She can build the library herself, that option was never not available to her, she simply CHOSE not to build it because that was just her fantasy. Growing up she probably looked out for what's really important, to have someone to care about her and have someone she cares for. That's all she needs and she'll be content, but PB is just such an ass that he feels he has to keep throwing his money around to keep her around amidst all of his wacky activities that he never consults her with. How many times did he fuck up this season? Off the top of my head: invites his two ex wives to his home to be around all the time, stupidly traps everyone in his home by cheering once more when their rescue team came, ruining the survival plan by rallying against the capable leader, ditching Diane on their vacation to hang out with two strangers aaaaaaand now this. Would you want to be married to such a person (dog)? I'm surprised she stayed this long.
Yeah I agree. For me it's kind of frustrating because it feels like Mr. Peanutbutter is pretty much the only character who hasn't really grown as a person. I just hope next season he can get as much growth as the other main characters, at this point he just kinda feels like an annoying part of Diane's character arc.
zeldafreak701 I
Uh fuck you.
Agree. Mr penutbutter is alot like Joy from the inside out movie. He tries so he and everyone around him does not feel any negative emotions. Even if one need to feel sad and let it all out he's just going to try and shove happy down their throats. He just pushes his grandjusters and expects thing to turn our ok so every one is happy and he gets the attention. All other emotions get swept under the rug. I think in the next season mr penutbutter won't be able to hide the pain with a simple happy fix. He ganna put on a happy face and pretend that all is good but it won't last and the act will be to much.
Actually I really like all of the characters, or if I don't like them, I can at least empathize with them. Each of them has an aspect of their personality that reflects a piece of me. Mr. PB's enthusiasm and energy and even his unease with dealing with heavy issues, Diane's cynicism, and even Bojack's limited optimism.
I disagree with the part where you said she has a husband who listens and gives her whatever she wants. Her husband didn't truly listen, he filled up the library with fake books, proving he doesn't really get her. she also never said she wanted the library, she said she likes to think of it as a fantasy get-away thought
In the video, I said Mr. PB made an effort to listen, not that he succeeded. It is well known that Mr. PB does not listen to Diane or to most people. The reason many people see Mr. PB as the good guy in this relationship is because of the effort, not the results.
And I played the clip in the video where Diane explicitly says "What I wanted was a Belle-room." It's incorrect to say "She never said she wanted a library" even if that wasn't what she meant when she said it.
"The reason many people see Mr. PB as the good guy in this relationship is because of the effort, not the results."
Yeah, but that's really troubling.
But has Diane put effort into helping her husband understand what she wants?
No, not at all.
I am curious Chloe, why does diane constantly use grand gestures herself if she hates them?
Did she, or did she not claim the belle room is her life's dream?
Do yourself a favor, and check out the episodes. She never once informs him of what she means. She never explains it. When has she talked to him on his level, and explained she doesn't like surprises? Have you considered that Mr. Peanutbutters is a dog? A dog who is loyal to her, and does what she says.
(Disclaimer: I realize this video does not necessarily reflect the OPs personal opinions on Diane but rather bring up overarching opinions in her stretched across a fanbase. This is purely for discussional purposes)
First off, I don't think it's as simple as saying Diane chooses to be unhappy. I just think she's used to there always being a catch to the things that she wants, therefore that's what she expects from everything in life. Her journey has been a series of taking two steps forward and being yanked one step back, whether it's from her parents or the sellouts that she once idolized. It's like looking around and thinking "This is too good to be true" and just when you let your guard down and enjoy what's happening you discover the huge catch to it. I think what happened with the philanthropist was her ultimate breaking point, which is why she hid from Mr. Peanutbutter for two months with the one person who truly understands what it's like to hit rock bottom. Not to excuse her lying to her husband, but it explains it.
Which brings me to my next point. The ultimate breakup really can't be simplified into identifying one person at fault when ultimately they were just not compatible. Again, Diane lying to Mr. Peanutbutter was still shitty, but I can understand why she did when we're talking about her facing someone who tries so hard to be peppy and positive all the time (it's a big reason why I didn't like him at first.) It was like ripping a nail out just to get him to face his brothers health issues, and he's clearly the kind of person that does everything he can to avoid actually facing a problem. It's probably why he forgave Diane a little too early, but since she had obviously learned from that I was able to move on too. But while Mr. Peanutbutter is all about keeping a face and how things look on the surface Diane wants to explore the cracks, and that's what the Belle Room fight was ultimately about. It was another idea that Mr. Peanutbutter jumped into without much thought or consideration for whether or not it was an actually good idea. He built her a library without understanding why she loved the idea of a Belle room (hence the fake books) and disregarded the fact that she very clearly stated she hates grand gestures. While his impulsiveness makes for a fun boyfriend it doesn't make for a good husband, especially when that means you end up with a fracking unit in your backyard because running for Mayor just sounded like fun.
It's an ugly breakup in the sense that these two tried really hard and honestly did care about each other but they were incompatible as a couple. People are obviously going to take sides, but it's a disservice to these characters to address them in such a black and white matter in a show that is all about the colors people exude
XxBroadwaygonnabexX People are used to taking a Black & White approach to things. The shades of Grey confuse people.
I really don't get how anyone can hate any of the characters.
People were disappointed with Diane which transitioned into hate. It's like having a favorite series in video games or tv, only to see it turn horrible and never improve. It feels like a misrepresentation of all the good it did and people get angry about that. Season 1 Diane was a lot of people's favorites. Season 2-4 Diane is a disappointment to that.
Tbh, the only character I really hate is Joseph Sugerman
@@candy-ninja Joseph Sugarman is shuch a straw man. Seriously... dont bother hating him. Its not worth the effort
Yeah he's kinda the center of the compass for "asshole".
I dunno he kinda breathed the 'sociopath' air a bit, as well.
diane's complexity was really explored in this episode. her whole life has been "squinting" to find the good in bad situations or situations that don't add up to what they could have been. PB, imo, was Diane's project. she liked him because he was flawed, but obliviously happy. but as it became clear that she was sacraficing a part of her own life and happiness to be with someone who doesn't even realize he doesn't care about her or anyone else, her own selfishness is revealed. but think about it; she wrote a best selling book, got multiple job offers, got hired on movies, etc. but all of them came with another side to them; she was harassed for writing bojack's book and was shat on even by bojack, she thought going with titanic sinclair to third world countries would fulfill her need to be important, but sinclair ended up being a selfish, absorbed human being with no intent to help people but rather exploit them. her job at girl crush is constantly fulfilling the shallow, simplistic role of women in hollywoo that diane dispises. when she tried to stand up against sexual assault in hollywoo her own husband told her she was getting in the way (i think diane handled that whole situation really maturely) and even on set of Philbert in season 5 she was told to "sit there and not help." in contrast to both PB and bojack, who have been offered lots of jobs as well and actually have successes yet take it for granted, diane's work is constantly patronized and made to seem lesser than her male counterparts. after exploring more about her life before hollywoo you see that her life has constantly been this way, and you can't help but feel bad for her. even her own therapist gets rid of her after feeling that she's "done all she can do" for her. i think diane's moral highground doesn't come from a place of feeling morally superior, but feeling like she is a good person who can never get the credit or success she deserves even after trying again and again. unlike PC she isn't boastful of her talent, she just keeps trying. she holds other people accountable because it frustrates her that other people can have the success she wants while still being "bad people" which only makes sense.
i really hope in season 6 while bojack is in rehab that she doesn't spiral. but i definetly see that as a possibility. i think it would be cool if she started a new relationship with somebody who is healthy, but perhaps makes her see the toxicity of not only herself but her friends and life. in a way, be the person she was for bojack (exposing his flaws) maybe she'll break away from her hollywoo clan and realize the only way she can live the life she wants is if she steps away from the one she currently lives.
Your assessment was so spot on. Especially about the healthy relationship and breaking away from Hollywoo
Medha Sinha it's crazy cause everything i'd hoped for her in season 6 came true
Unlikable character =/= a bad or misunderstood character
You can understand that a character is flawed and realistic without liking them.
Diane is unlikable because she’s hypocritical, self-righteous, overly negative, and a drama queen. All of those are realistic and understandable traits considering her background. But do I have to like her? No. I’ve known people like that in real life and I keep them at a distance or just cut them out.
I think her character serves an integral part to the show though. Just like the rest of the extremely flawed characters.
Exactly well said
this is my favorite comment.
Finally someone who gets it. She's not a bad character, nor misunderstood. She's highly disliked because she's precicely understood. Because she's a horrible person.
Doesn't bojack have the exact same flaws? Do you like his character?
Who's a likeable character on Bojack according to you?
"Diane chooses to be miserable" - Hooray, willfully misunderstanding depression!
Isn't it an oxymoron to "willfully misunderstand" something? It's possible to willfully misrepresent something, but a misunderstanding implies it's unintentional.
Ignorance is the choice not to know. Thinking that depression involves a choice is ignorant. The choice not to know is a wilful misunderstanding. You are making an analysis video about a series centred on mental health, while choosing to be ignorant about mental health. Which is, admittedly, a fascinating choice, but if you are far enough behind on understanding mental illness to consider depression a choice, I would consider that willful, yes.
As a long-term sufferer of depression, I can safely say that no, there is a degree of choice within a depression. To say it's completely outside of your control is an arrogant self-defense mechanism that I subscribed to for many years, until I finally learned to be honest with myself. At some point in your depression, you actually do choose subconciously to fall into a rut. You choose not to do anything about it, because the suffering is familiar now. To endure and suffer in relative silence is easier than getting off your ass and change the things that make you unhappy.
I've been suffering with it for some time now, but I do have my share of blame for not looking for help .... It is unfair to blame people though
Neil Cathan as someone who has suffered from diagnosed long term depression and anxiety, there’s always a choice. You can choose to better yourself, you can choose to make your situation better. You can also choose to stay miserable. You can choose to keep your priorities low and you can choose to not change yourself for the better. I have experienced both sides of it. I at one point chose to stay miserable because I thought that it was who I really was, but then someone close to me had to give me a huge reality check and it snapped me out of my self pitying life. I still am struggling with my mental health, but now I choose to try and better myself and I’ve kept my promises to myself and others to keep my priorities in check and to keep myself happy. Depression always has a choice. You can choose to stay depressed and never change, or you can choose to get yourself out of your depression. Diana eventually chose to get herself out of it by taking medication and found a good man who keeps her on the straight and narrow.
Wait, but that's not what happened in Season 2 at all. First off, she didn't just magically go on her adventure with a famous philanthropist in a war torn country. She was constantly struggling and debating with everyone, especially Mr. P, on the value of our own lives and what makes it worth living. She was exactly like you said in Season 1, calling out all of the insane life choices of these Hollywood stars until she organically came to the conclusion that this was all just fluff and she needed to seriously find meaning in what she did.
Then she found out the ideal she looked up to was a sham. She put that philanthropist on a pedestal and found out he's just as Hollywood as Hollywood. Diane put all her eggs in one basket and subsequently gets them all crushed. After relentless advocating about how important this move was to her she had to admit that it was all for naughty and that DESTROYS her. THAT'S why she doesn't tell Mr. P she's back home. What you said about her constantly believing in human beings bettering themselves? Yeah, she just lost that. And the whole time her husband never really believed in that in the first place.
Waaaay different from "she got everything she wanted and CHOSE to be unhappy." Total misunderstanding of her character. It's like people love the idea of her. Daría in the 21st century. But she's not Daria. She's not a paragon. She's incredibly layered and human and constantly thinking. It should also be mentioned that she loses track of her own identity due to her constant need to find the truth in things. It's why she no longer narrates in her head. That's a pretty big deal. And with that identity lost she goes to the only other person who understands how painfully depressed that journey is: Bojack Horseman.
I think you added things in that were never stated. I never said she magically got everything she wanted. I stated she got everything she wanted and then chose to be unhappy, because like other parts that include Diane, she focuses on the bad. Yes, there was a struggle to get what she wanted, but that doesn't belabor the point. Even though she was still helping people, she focused on how egotistical her subject was being and saw it as a reason for the experience to be bad. In a good situations, Diane focused on what made the situation bad. As I said in the video, this is just because Diane questions life, even when it goes her way, which is not inherently a bad thing, it's just shows the sign of a Person being ungrateful.
And while one might sympathize with Diane for going to Bojack instead of going home, the fact of the matter is, Diane explicitly states she knew what she was doing was wrong. There is never a point in their relationship where Mr. PB knew his actions were wrong, but did them anyway. Even incidents like fracking, he believed were okay because of his campaign. After the moment where Diane does something she knows is wrong, Mr. PB instantly forgives her and makes her feel good about herself. Mr. PB, during one of Diane's worst moments, saw the bright side, but Diane, during times where Mr. PB is trying to be nice to her, tends to see the downside.
Even if everything you said was true, it doesn't dismiss the overall point that Diane's tendencies to focus on the negativity of situations is why people side against her. Even if she has every right to feel negative (which there are times when she doesn't), when a Person does that constantly, people see a Person looking to escape good situations. A lot of people don't see a bad couple, they see a husband trying his best and a wife who can't see that and only sees his flaws.
I can't really see how she got everything she wanted, all her character has wanted was to make a change and try to help people who need help. She watched a little kid that she very much wanted to help, get killed and the man who was supposed to be helping them didn't give a shit. I'm not saying Diane doesn't see the bad side, she does, to almost everything but has she found something that could give her the fulfilment that she wanted that wasn't a sham, I haven't seen that.
I disagree with your statement that "she got everything she wanted and then chose to be unhappy"
Everything she got has been a Hollywoo sham so far other then mr peanutbutter but he's really not good for her, he's as bad as Bojack would be for her.
I can see her character ending in a similar way to Mr fuzzy whiskers. His speech really resonated with her. She needs to give up everything and do what she needs to do to have fulfilment . She wants to help people but hasn't been able to escape the Hollywoo sham of "helping people" because she also likes having money and friends. I can only see her character arc ending one of two ways, suicide or leaving Hollywoo for good and doing something that would actually make her happy even if it didn't pay well.
parasuhyena
Writing the book about St Claire was exactly the kind of job Diane thought she wanted. The problem was the Person doing it was egotistical, something she didn't expect, and in order to do the job properly, she learned she couldn't grow attached to anything, which she didn't want.
Diane doesn't actually know what she wants so when she gets what she thinks she wants, she realizes "Wow, the downsides are not worth the upsides... I don't want this" and it makes her seem ungrateful. And this is not the only time she does this.
There will ALWAYS be downsides to life and situations. When they happen to Diane, she focuses on them, at least, that's what she's done so far throughout the show.
Diane is akin to someone spending years asking for chocolate, and then when you give it to them, they complain that is has nuts in it and they throw it away, now declaring they want caramel. Wrong? Not necessarily. Ungrateful? Absolutely.
you really just do not understand Diane, and your insistence on "focusing on the good things" is exactly the trait that makes Mr. Peanut Butter unable to care for her in the way she needs. Diane isn't just looking for happiness. She's looking for meaning and fulfillment. She's looking for a real connection and someone who understands her at her core. The issue is that she's looking for this in the worst place imaginable for doing so. Hollywoo is a place all about shallow, constructed images, where people are obsessed with superficial comforts and abhor any kind of meaningful interaction or relationships. Mr. Peanut Butter is the epitome of this ideal. Like he says to Diane, nothing matters, and the key to being happy is just to fill your life with a bunch of superficial stuff so you're distracted from the fact that you're gonna die. (I'm paraphrasing, here's the clip: ua-cam.com/video/HZYJKtOjJXg/v-deo.html) This is the antithesis of what Diane is looking for. Some people can do what Mr. Peanut Butter does, they can just live their life completely distracted from the flaws and faults, the things that are deeply and fundamentally wrong with their lives, but Diane just isn't like that. She can't just grin and bear it, she can't just pretend they're not there, because she's sensitive, because she's observant, because she stops to think, really think about her life and where it's at and how it's broken. She doesn't even need someone that can provide everything exactly as she needs it, she just needs someone who acknowledges that about her, who thinks like her and understands her reservations about her life, and how she needs to take seriously the things that Mr. Peanut Butter just frantically sweeps under the rug the moment they come up. I really think the only way she could be happy is if she left Hollywoo and never came back.
Neither of them are "in the wrong." They both did their absolute best to make the relationship work in the ways they each thought would help, but in the end, they just aren't the right people for each other.
I kept forgetting to find the interview where the creator backs up my opinion until now. Here's Bob-Waksberg double confirming everything the majority of us are saying about Diane. This is taken from a Vox interview for Season 3 of the show. Also, I came off as snippy earlier and I apologize for that. I did not mean for my passion for the character to come off as attacking in anyway.
"She turns 35 in this season. A big part of the conversation, too, is here's a woman who got married very quickly in season one. What does the first year of marriage look like for this couple? She's looking around and realizing that she's this Beverly Hills housewife, which I think is something she never thought she would be. A lot of the season is her trying to rebel against that or figure out what she's supposed to do.
She has these large ideals, and she believes that she is capable of doing good in the world. A big part of the season was her getting just beat down over and over and realizing that she cannot live up to her ideals and she's not the person that she thought she was. She's not capable of being as good as she wants to be or in the ways that she thought she could."
www.vox.com/2015/8/23/9186237/bojack-horseman-netflix-interview
I think this is a very male perspective. That a woman is deliberately finding something negative bc life is too happy! I have heard this comment from males in my life. The assumption is that her actual emotional response to things is deliberately contrary rather than an authentic response to the disappointment. We were always meant to find the pairing of Dianne and Mr Peanut Butter strange. He is relentlessly positive and a little shallow and enjoys everything. He thinks he and Bojack are best friends as he lacks insight. She is very cynical, analytic and melancholic but at the same time idealistic.
Seeing a tawdry and schmaltzy version of a private space exposes the fantasy as disappointing. Maybe she should have showed a lot more gratitude for the effort he showed, but I think it just finally made her realise they weren’t necessarily as in sync as she thought.
"why don't women just shut up and not complain" yeah that's it... this is a male perspective
I think she has depression and nothing can make her happy. People think that maybe she's just selfish, or maybe Mr P. is too materialistic, but i think she just can't let herself be happy.
Johnny Blood yeah no shit sherlock
kringe HEY! This was a perfectly good analysis!!
Depressed people's issue isn't that they don't "let themselves" be happy it is a LITERAL chemical imbalance in the brain.
Tbh I think it's borderline not depression
@@elarkoduck9494 I mean she doesn't let alcohol and drugs control her life, sure, but thinking that she's "a pit that good things fall into" and that she thinks she's broken cause she can't be happy....and saything that she feels "all the time, like a garbage fire.
And not a cozy dumpster in a quaint alley, but a barge, floating out to sea, with no rudder." Feeling like trash and that you're what good things fall into and that you can't be happy and that you're broken for it...sounds like depression to me, dude. Why do you think it's borderline?
To hear that people don’t like Diane...wow. Breaks my heart. Such a poignant and real character.
@ I actually like Diane because she wants to help people and do the right thing. But she doesn't understand that most people can't be changed so she wastes her time on Bojack.
Samantha Burns ikr
I feel this is precicely why Diane isn't liked. Because she's a poignant, real character - a horrible person. She's too real, a character so awful that you can't help but hate her. If you don't hate her, chances are, that you're much like Diane herself.
she was in a relationship with mr. peanutbutter because he made her "happy" even though this was a fake happiness. i feel like she did not really love him. in the end, she couldn't fake her happiness anymore.
I don't know if I'd say the happiness was fake. When she got drunk in Underground, she mentioned that she thought maybe it was her who was the problem and also told Mr. PB he was the only not horrible thing to happen to her, meanwhile, in that same episode, she tells Bojack that she needs him because he's the biggest jerk she knows and the only thing that *makes sense* to her.
Diane has a hard time comprehending Mr. PB's mentality, and vice versa. She can't grasp that he is a guy who keeps moving upward, even while he has everything while he can't grasp that she only wants enough to be satisfied with her life. So Mr. PB tries to make Diane happy while she tries to calm him down. If Diane is already content, she doesn't really want to seek out further happiness, but that's all Mr. PB wants to give her.
Shady Doorags Diane has a problem with allowing herself to be happy as a coping mechanism; she grew up in an emotionally abusive household where allowing herself to feel true happiness left her too vulnerable , which got her hurt; think of when she had that boyfriend her brothers made up. Her family never fostered an environment where she could feel accepted, cared, not on the defense.
Diane is one of the most compelling characters on this show and I haven't lost any respect for her. Mr. PB tries so hard to be good and kind to Diane but he's always been a terrible listener. You can trace this behaviour back to the pilot episode and his first interaction with BoJack. He's extroverted but won't even let BoJack speak or open up about his feelings, showing a lack of empathy. Mr. PB never listens to Diane beyond the surface, so she is fed up. BoJack might be more cold and cynical than Mr. PB but he is much more perceptive and delves deeper into emotions with Diane.
That underground episode where Diane and Bojack spent several days getting drunk together kind of hints to me that they could have an affair next season or maybe we'll see a raunchy flashback? They almost 'disappeared' for a long time during that episode. As an audience member I don't want this to happen, I think they're perfect as just friends but their chemistry is growing each season.
Honestly it takes relating to a character to truly understand and like a character- which is why I'm usually always taking Diane's "side" rather than PB's (and he's just... my most disliked character out of the whole cast). I sort of understand where those "siding" with PB come from- or, rather, I try to, but their interpretation is usually as shallow and incorrect as PB's depiction of the world itself. Diane is considered ungrateful, selfish, etc. by most PB fans because she declines his "heartfelt gestures" (again, shallow thinking) and has the gall to express any emotion outside of being the sweet, demure housewife that most would expect (even though we're watching Bojack, a show where characters are multifaceted). She's not allowed to show real human reactions as someone who lives a completely unsatisfying life without scrutiny. Meanwhile, PB can act as if problems in this world are practically nonexistent, and that hiding your issues is a completely healthy way of dealing with life and is something that grown adults do. He's also allowed to burden those around him with ridiculous plans and schemes, humiliate himself and his wife, with little shit from fans. Hypocrisy, much?
Diane has obviously made her mistakes, however I'm glad to see more people in this comment section understand the source of the mistakes she made, the biggest being the Cordovia incident. I won't explain it in full detail, but yes, she built the idea of philanthropy and working with a philanthropist on such a high expectation that it came crashing down when she realized nothing was as it seems. It's understandable why that would break someone. There's a difference between someone who believes they lead a shitty life vs someone who leads a totally unsatisfying life, and the prospect of leading an unsatisfying life is 10x more relatable and more depressing to me than leading a shitty life. Diane doesn't lead a shitty life right now- she's safe, has resources, and has a job. However, none of what she's doing is anything she wants to be doing, nor is it anything satisfying or stimulating to her. I think this is especially accentuated in season 4, when working for a liberal feminist Buzzfeed-esque job, and having a frankly batshit insane husband who doesn't understand the concept of personal limitations. I think the best descriptor for Diane, at this point, is tired. She wants to be understood, but no matter how much she speaks out, she's never heard. It's happened with the Hippopopolous situation, the birthday party situation, Cordovia, and the Belle Room. She's emotionally drained, and with a marriage to PB, the last thing you can be is emotionally drained.
This was kinda jumbled but this is the entirety of my thoughts on the situation. I'm willing to debate with anyone as long as they're civil.
eternagym I just don't get how those who side with Mr. Peanutbutter have a right to say that Diane is selfish. In my opinion the most selfish of the two is actually Mr. Peanutbutter, he's always throwing this "big gestures" which she doesn't appreciate and people still bash her for that even though she told him REPEATEDLY she DOESN'T LIKE THEM but there he goes again, doing his own Mr. Peanutbutter thing, not caring at all about what she said making a big deal out of anything once again.
I feel sad for Diane, she actually tries most of the times, right after Mr. Peanutbutter makes a show of himself and his life, she puts it all behind her and tries to start again until she can't handle it anymore, (the clearest example being after Mr. P proposed to her. He said that he wasn't going to make a big deal out of it but he still did, like 5 seconds after he kneeled to propose. She took a deep breath and smiled) and in season 2 and season 4 she just couldn't put things behind her anymore and so she had to take a break from Mr. Peanutbutter, but everyone said she was a cunt for leaving him.
So yeah, I actually relate to Diane a lot and I get why she does most of the things she does and I do feel bad for her most of the time.
eternagym this comment needs more likes
What did Diane say she wanted? Did she ever once in the entirety of the show honestly talk to Mr. Peanutbutter? It's not his fault she is stunted mentally.
eternagym love/agree with this analysis! also see you’re a steven universe fan. taste! pearl has grown to be one of my favorite characters on the show!
"She wants to be understood, but no matter how much she speaks out, she's never heard." the thing is, I don't think she even knows what she wants. She spends all her life thinking she was better than everyone else, that she would be doing something that was "meaningful" and etc and when that falls down, she's completely lost. I understand that, but I don't think she has recovered from that. Shes unsatisfied but it's hard to expect people to know what you want when you don't even know it yourself.
Honestly, they just aren't compatible. At all. Diane is too intellectually mature for Mr. Peanutbutter, and Mr. Peanutbutter is too emotionally mature for Diane. They don't, and can't understand each other. How did they even end up together?
I think you are making the mistake of looking at the specific situation in the episode too closely. Look back over the last season or two and you can see the friction between her and Peanut Butter wearing her down. Remember when the house gets trapped underground and Dianne spends the whole week inebriated in order to cope. If Peanut Butter had not built the room its likely that there would have been some other straw that broke the camels back.
I find it kinda disingenuous to leave out the line in season 4 where she calls herself a pit. Diane is probably not actively aware for the most part that she does have slight self destructive tendencies, and you’re probably right that she focuses on the bad in any given situation but that likely comes from her past.
Growing up emotionally abused she probably absorbed the idea that she doesn’t deserve nice things and doesn’t deserve to be happy. She might not be conscious of this, but it’s common for people who spent their childhood bullied and/or abused to be distrustful if everything seems to be going too well or if people are to kind to them because it goes against what they’re used to and what they believe deep down. That’s why people who were abused in the past will sometimes seek out abusive relationships in the future; because they already normalized abuse in their minds.
Diane is a complex and deep character and it’s kinda suspicious for people to turn on her when she starts to behave as less than the voice of reason but continue to forgive other characters for their toxic behavior. I think that’s kinda what happens when you put a character, or hell even a real person, on sorta a moral pedestal. Honestly if she continued to be this constantly level headed voice of reason it would have realistically gotten real old real fast; just look at Lisa Simpson.
As stated in the pinned comment, I left out many things about Diane because of the context of the video. Imagine this conversation...
Person A - "I don't like Diane thanks to season 4."
Person B - "How did season 4 make you not like Diane?"
Person C - This video.
Naturally, in explaining why someone doesn't like Diane, I'm not going to bring up every trait about her, and most of the traits I do bring up will be negative because of the topic.
It doesn't help that her character is hypocritical. Be it hero, villain, or average Person, being a hypocrite is not a likeable trait. Bojack is aware that he's a horrible Person but Diane often times presents an atmosphere where she is talking down to others from a place of moral superiority. The scene in the diner where she talks about people seeing outside their own world is a good summation of how a lot of people see her character. The fact that she used to be viewed as the morally superior and grounded character, only furthers that feeling of frustration.
Can i just point out, i love how we have the ability to debate about these character's behaviors because that's now fucking clever this show is. I love these little perspectives, almost like we relate and are real-life friends with these characters. Love you guys, keep being sophisticated folk
I guess I'm the opposite. I was pretty bored by Diane in the first season and she became my favorite character after the second. When she didn't come home and opted to drink at Bojack' s house, I knew her and I were one and the same. Diane always feels like she has something to prove about herself. She wants to appear independent, moral, intelligent and most of all HAPPY even though we can't always be that way all the time. This is what happens when your family deeply wounds you. You want to prove to them and thus the entire world that you got this handled, but really, you feel deep inside that they're right and you deserve none of it. Not happiness, and not to be seen as a valuable person who deserves big, kind gestures. Diane was me before I finally let go of "finding happiness" and just let myself live.
Interesting video. However, you overlooked one thing. During most of season 4, Mr.Peanutbutter's gubanatorial campaigm put a huge strain on their marriage, with Mr Peanutbutter seemingly making every wrong decision ("wrong" being "his wife was openly against it"). At the season 4 finale, I interpreted them buying a new house together as a way to rebuild their relationship. But Mr.Peanutbutter's grand gesture was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. It wasn't so much that Diane actively chooses not to be happy, but rather she's tired of pretending that Mr.Peanutbutter can make her happy.
Honestly, I felt like the video would go in a completely different direction. As soon as you started steamrolling the shit train into obscurity I couldn't help but think that you missed the point of her character completely. Can't say I agree with the fact that she's deliberately looking for negativity in everything. I can see where the 'she doesn't want to be happy, she wants to be content' comes in, but... She seems like the kind of character that yes, had an idea of what she wanted to be, WHO she wanted to be, but was constantly proven wrong in a way. Yes, she had a lot of opportunities, but just because she doesn't 'take' them, doesn't make her the culprit, and definitely doesn't deserve negativity. She doesn't know what she wants, but she knows what she doesn't want, I think. She showed Mr. Peanutbutter that she doesn't like grand gestures, but he never listened. She doesn't want to be miserable, but she doesn't want to pretend to be happy. I think that was mainly the point.
Diane does not want to be with someone who wants to make her happy but rather someone who wants to be happy with her
I don't know if I can agree with that statement. The whole point of Mr. PB's library gesture was to have a house that both he AND Diane could call home. It's not necessarily proof against your statement, but I think it demonstrates that co-happiness is more of an issue for Mr. PB than it is for Diane.
Okay two things: Mr. Peanut Butter ignores Diane’s issues a lot. He often ignores her issues and tries to make up for it with grand gestures.
As for Diane it’s not so much not wanting to be happy. This is just how depression works.
The thing about Diane that made me most upset was that no matter what she did, she was always portrayed to be in the right. A rough childhood can explain doing bad things, but it doesn’t excuse it. I actually really liked her in the first season. She was a fun and likable character for the most part. Though, as the series progressed, she was used as a pawn in my opinion. A pawn used to display the writers political views. That’s not to say I disagree with EVERYTHING she stood for, but it was just so lazy. Also the fact that she slept with her ex husband when SHE KNEW he had a girlfriend. Mr. Peanutbutter felt remorse and apologized profusely to Pickles, that doesn’t excuse what he did, but Diane never apologized. She just continued living her life. She wants a lot, but gets upset when she gets what she wants.
I don't think you understand though actual metaphor mr. Peanutbutter "bell room." It symbolizes what Diane experience mom having her dream job. The Bell room of her mind is full of magic and beauty just like rituals and ambitions. but once she receives it she finds out that the reality is full of empty shells just like the empty your house and the fake smiley faces painted on the furniture
I think this analysis is lacking. Diane is an intellectual immersed within the nonsensical spectacle of hollywoo, a place where everything is a knock off of itself. Diane tries to do good, to provide reason and depth to the life around her, but continually gets dissolutioned by the flatness of the world around her. eventually, after getting completely fucking traumatized by war town Cordovia, she realizes no matter how motivated and ready she is to change the world, the world is not ready to change. she then internalizes this and thinks she is the problem and becomes a more passive character to the absurdity of everything around her. She is an optimistic person and needs someone like mr peanut butter to maintain that, but ultimately, pb is someone who is completely content with forever indulging in the shallow spotlight of hollywoo. Diane is too intelligent to ever feel this, and knows that everything is just a knock off work no cultural depth of meaning. This for obvious reasons puts pressure on their marriage. Diane is made to feel she is the problem. You neglect to mention that the library Mr pb constructs for her is a library with fake books. Diane's fantasy library was a thing she could genuinely call hers, and to see it externalized and depthless (fake books) and beauty and the beat themed (Disney brand, impersonal), was existentially traumatizing for her. It was no longer hers anymore, it became yet another knockoff. Peanut butter can't understand this because his whole being is entrenched in the spectacle of hollywoo while Diane's always, and rightfully so, demanding more.
This video isn't an analysis about Diane, this is an analysis about a specific issue many were having with Diane and Mr. PB's relationship. There is way more to Diane's character than portrayed in this video, it's just that the purpose of this video was to explain a specific perspective, of which, required one to look at specific traits of Diane and Mr. PB.
i guess i understand that, however most of the examples you give for why folks may not like Diane is directly motivated by misogyny: "a woman should be grateful when she's given what she wants." I honestly don't think you were critical enough of this when talking about the hate surrounding her character in this video. Without being critical of the misogyny of the viewers, you are merely perpetuating it like in this video. there are plenty of avenues thru which you could begin to critique how the show portrays her character, but the examples i've seen offer a really shallow analysis of her character that just says, "she's hypocritical and ungrateful." it's so much more complicated than that, and to not offer that criticism in your video is to perpetuate the sexist logic of these claims.
Wonderful reply, Amber.
Amber Vase
I never said anything about gender. Most people feel anyone should be grateful when that Person is given what they want, irregardless of their gender. If you believe otherwise, that's up to you to present the evidence of that claim. And no, I wasn't critical, because as stated, this was a video explaining a specific viewpoint. It's like making a video explaining why people love ice-cream. Sure I could also talk about the people who hate ice-cream, but that would stray from the point.
dont you think that your unwillingness to say "anything about gender" is the problem in and of itself though? it's precisely through our tacit ignorance that we perpetuate the worst violences. im not trying to imply that you are perpetuating gendered violence merely through your making of this video, but i am stating bluntly that your unwillingness to be critical of the sexism inherent within how viewers perceive Diane's character is a problem and is not above critique.
She doesn't like big gestures. She already have told Peanutbutter about that but he went on with his plans. Sorry, but that's called "imposing"
Guido Gomez You don't think she's at fault? At all?
Jack Randerson In this scenario, i don't. You can't force people to like/appreciate the same things you do.
However, i do think that if they end up getting divorced, the fault'll be of both of them
If I tell my significant other I don't like surprise parties, yet they throw me a surprise party anyways, doesn't that seem rude and disrespectful towards my preferences? Why would they still force a party upon me when I specifically told them I didn't want one? If I criticize them for throwing one, though, I will look like a bad person because they went out of their way to do this seemingly kind gesture for me. It's really just a lose-lose situation
The thing is that this wasn't "just a party", she tells it like it was a big dream of her, something she always wanted. Mr. Peanutbutter has been at fault of not listening to her early in their relationship, but I don't think thats at play here.
What I honestly hate about this video is that it doesn't appreciate how 3 dimensional Diane. She is a dynamic and round character. With the voice of reason and also being damaged characteristics.
Diane is damaged, comes from a bad home. Had to work to where she's, she's so disassociated from her family her father's death didn't phase her. Was Mr. Peanut Butter there for her? No. People are flawed, to expect her not to have hang ups after her childhood is what's wrong with society today. Everybody is supposed to be a perfect little robot. The dysfunction between Mr. Peanut Butter is that they are both unwilling to help eachother. Mr. Peanut Butter blatantly does big gestures, even though she doesn't like them, over and over again. He doesn't ever talk her into it, he always pushes her into situations where she feels out of place. He forgets about her in the midst of the whatever, whether it's a tv shoot in their house or an engagement party. He does big gestures in the hopes of gaining her love. He never says, "Baby I'd be ecstatic if you'd let me do such and such for you." He just drops her into situations, should everybody be okay with being the center of attention? He never talks to her until after a fight. Diane never listens to him either. People have a way of rubbing off on eachother, it's a case of you ignore me, I ignore you. Also, Diane listening to Bojack's baggage might've made her see flaws in her life. Don't condemn her, wish for her to get better.
Throughout the entire series, it’s pretty clear that mr peanutbutter does these big gestures, they’re for him, to make him feel good about himself, even after Diane repeatedly tells him things like that make her uncomfortable
That is not listening to her. You haven't understood her at all! It's like the Hollywood D, the big proposal, the birthday party! Mr Peanutbutter thinks that he'll make other people happy doing exactly what would make him happy... he has good intentions, though. I think the people who hate her feel identified with her and they're disappointed, as you said. I honestly would have hated her if she had continued going through "the good path". Now *that* would have been unrealistic.
Well, actually lying about stealing it 😂
Wow it's almost like the character is flawed has depth and real life problems, I think the haters are unnerved that they may see themselves in Diane
No not really. I just dislike her.
Mr peanut is a nice guy but he's an awful husband, the whole political party bullshit of season 4 and having his exs in his house, running his life..
Mr. Peanutbutter was kind of a jerk this season. He constantly does massive things for himself that effect her, without asking her. Like letting their shared house be used for shows, OR RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.
I never thought what Diane did was so outrageous. She left the third world because she discovered the person she was writing about was a egotistical sham who used poverty to boost his image, and when she went home she felt like the problem was on her for not being strong enough to help those people anyway. She couldn't face Mr. Peanut butter and admit she didn't have the strength she wanted to have. I know what that's like. I know the fear of having big ambitions, having people believe in you and the possibility of going home a failure. It's especially hard when Mr. Peanut butter IS such a caring and forgiving person himself . . . Albeit a pretty dense one.
Also, she told Mr. Peanut butter she hated grand gestures MULTIPLE TIMES. That's on him for not taking a hint. Well intentioned as he may be, his actions are a product of the fact that he always assumes people want what he wants. All Diane wanted was a simple life with a nice husband; nothing too showboaty or extravagant. She wants to see the good in her marriage and tries really hard all the time, but that contradicts the fact that she just wants simplicity. If happiness is too complicated for her to pin down it isn't happiness at all.
Both these controversial moments happen for the same reason. Other people are massively flawed but Diane finds some weird way to put herself to blame for everything. Snow leopard guy is exploiting the third world for his image, she thinks she wasn't strong enough to help them. Mr. Peanut Butter keeps going over the top, she thinks it's her fault for not being able to accept these things. In reality she's too altruistic for her own happiness to be achieved. And yeah, she can be self righteous or hypocritical . . . But she's also always right about whatever she's talking about and the hypocrisy is a character flaw meant to be explored, like the gun handling episode when she finds a loophole justification to carry a gun despite being opposed to them.
Diane's still my favourite character. She's flawed just like everyone else in the show, thats the point
mr peanutbutter and diane’s marriage was fundamentally flawed from the beginning; at their cores, they are simply very different people. not in a good way where their strengths balance out each other’s weaknesses, but where they can’t find anything in common and have completely different wants. it was a relationship doomed from the start, and i’m not entirely surprised that it ended.
Diane and Bojack are the only ones who resemble real people: good/bad, happy/miserable. So if anyone dislikes her: sorry, that's how people are. Those who look like they are only good, bad, happy, or sad, are just putting up masks. Or they are a Labrador. Ignorance is bliss.
I think what happens i that Diane is very perfectionistic: her way of being so critical of other people (sometimes without acknowledging the depth of their souls) is what creates suffering to her, because not only the world is flawed, but also she is. That is why she constantly struggles with hating the outside world, disliking it, and at the same time hating herself. She tries to solve that by exercising control over her environment through shaming and guilt tripping people so they do what she believes is right. It's not that she's not right, it's just that she sometimes dismisses people's inner experiences ("I don't believe in deep down, we are what we do") because subjectivity makes judgments more complicated, and just treating people for what they look on the outside make it more easy for her to be self-assured in objectivity. In the same manner that her family never paid attention to her thoughts, feelings and inner experience, Diane dismisses peoples histories. Even if she wrote Bojack's and Secretariat's biographies (where she's trying to connect with someone on a deeper level, not only to judge them from what they seem to be) she still has a hard time being of much help to Bojack. She can't offer proper advice to him in the beggining ("go to therapy", "think about your parent's background", "you can change who you are, you just need support") and the only things she delivers to him are judgements and critics, which are true, but that hurt Bojack and make it more difficult emotionally for him to recover. Of course, is not that Diane doesn't try to help Bojack, but her way of helping is kind of like "no pain, no gain", like telling Bojack all depends on him when clearly it's not a matter of Bojacks will or not to be healthy: he's sick on the inside, and precisely because Diane can't accept that inner reality, she is poor at giving adivce to him.
This tendency to focus on the external world and be judgamental, even if Diane's right, is what in the end causes her unhappiness. Diane doesn't understand herself; she sometimes goes almost insane (like when she had violent sex with Mr. Peanut Butter) because of her obssesion with being in control and being right; and in the end, all of that stems from the fact she hasn't take enough time to think about how the things she has experienced have made her who she is. She has little empathy for herself, and therefore, even less with others.
Her constant arguing with Mr. Peanut Butter, her lack of proper concern for Bojack and her tantrums in her house...She just can't understand the world around her. Diane is not as deep and reflexive as most people think. Of course she is a good person, we can all see she has the right opinion at the right moment, but Diane is at fault when it comes to understand other peoples emotions and experiences. What she does with Bojack I think is a big step she takes, and even so, she still judges him harshly at times.
But the reason why Diane keeps around Bojack, besides her job, is because Bojack is very honest and open about his issues, and it gives Diane an easier time relating to someone else, and even understanding herself. What Diane needs to understand is that, the same way who she is IS NOT totally on her control (her tantrums, her angry explosions, her self-loathing, her poorly made career decisions and affairs), the other people she judges very harshly at times is not totally in control of who they are, and she needs to be compassionate. That is something Diane learns with her divorce, and seeing herself failing miserably in her life. Of course, we all like Diane, because she's not as fucked up as Bojack, and she has some awareness of the world around her, and she has never crossed the line between being a good and a bad person. Diane is not in a extreme place, and that's why we can say she's not mean. But the only differences between Diane and Bojack is that 1) Diane was born in a different time, with very different influences on her 2) Diane had the opportunity to achieve some things she wanted, despite Bojack, who barely made it by meeting Herb by random chance, and he didn't even have any space to have personal expression, unlike Diane, who found GirlCrush, where he could write a lot of the things she wanted to write 3) Diane's family was enraging because they mocked her and never paid proper attention and care to her, but they never openly hurt her or hated her like Bojack's mom or his dad, they even felt affectionate for her in a kind of stupid way that we all hate.
I'm not saying Diane's life is not shitty (IT IS) but the impact it had on her was obviously less severe that the impact the Bojack's life had on him. Diane at least, with flaws and all, is still a decent, lovable person. Bojack, on the other hand, has crossed lines and do things he can't be said to be a lovable character to other people. But they are pretty similar: they are both judgamental, they lack proper self-awareness of their inner states, they lack self-control at times (Bojack obviously way more than Diane) and they usually cope with stress and shame by doing drugs, drinking and hating themselves.
I think the only difference is the severity of what they experienced and the severity of the consequences, but they are pretty similar, and that's why they get along well.
When Diane finally sees that there is something inside causing her to be miserable (just like Bojack made his own life miserable), she starts to be more compassionate towards people, and particularly Bojack, because she knows what he's been through, and just like her, he can fail without wanting to, be miserable and make others peoples lives miserable without wanting to hurt anyone (remember when she didn't hesitate to cheat with Mr. Peanut Butter on her GF, that is a small display of the same impulsivity that Bojack has).
Sorry Diane does not choose to be miserable nor is she ungrateful or hypocritical. This is a very common symptom of being raised in a gaslighting emotionally abusive environment, where even if your life's circumstances grant you every "happiness" you could want, you feel off, depressed, hopeless, like something is always wrong. Mr Peanut Butter is not without fault in any of his relationships, especially because he doesn't listen to her wanting him to adhere to her needs, and he just goes thru with whatever will solve his own insecurities, not hers. There is no right or wrong answer to their relationship of course, there's greys instead of blacks and whites. But Diane is not choosing to be miserable or ungrateful, she WANTS to be happy, she WANTS to be healthy. A self sabotager? Yes of course. She is depressed and has been abused, that is what depression and abuse does to a person. She does not have control over how miserable she is. Bojack doesn't either, is he any different?
She went thru a journey where she discovered she doesn't want the complicated analytical world she once thought she did and drifted more towards something more simple, contrary to what she thought she wanted..that's not hypocritical that's just how mental illness can work, that's how life circumstances and trauma can work. She is not choosing to be miserable by any stretch, she is and she doesn't know what to do about that. That's a desperation that's hard to translate and can look like laziness, hypocrisy, ungratefulness..but it's not.
Lianna I would agree.
Well,Bojack had a rough, abusive childhood and He doesn't get away with his behavior! Why should we forgive Diane for Hers?
Grand Prince Vuk J. Barkin' Tempest just cuz I like talkin about this and returned to look at mah comment, I'll say this
People in the fanbase, and just in life in general, are way quicker to forgive Bojack for who he is and what he's done. He and Diane are NOT the same, he has what 10-20 more years on her, and has filled those with incredibly toxic behavior, and still does. The show very explicitly deals with how Diane has the potential to be Bojack and fall down his dark path, but isn't quite there yet. That's kinda the point! No one has to forgive either of them for their horrid behavior (literally all Diane's done is like nothing compared to Bojack, come on, people vilify her cuz she's a woman), and I wasn't saying anyone should. But I am not gonna sit by and watch her being criticized this heavily, because this is how people (femmes especially) get treated in real life when they have the issues she does; very unforgivingly. It pains me. The show is SUCH a realistic portrayal of depression, amazingly done, and totally nuanced. And to take away from that something so..simple and non empathetic and judgmental etc seems so wrong to me. People who don't understand depression should just keep intense criticisms of these characters (and by extension, real people dealing with this) aside
You're projecting
I feel like everyone missed a huge part of the issue with the Belle Room. It isn't that it was a fake library. It isn't that she chose to find a flaw in something nice. It was that PB took something that was hers and tried to impress her with it. Even if he filled with with every book he knew she liked, even if she wasn't looking for flaws, it never could have been HER library because she didn't design it, and he never asked what she wanted it to be like. When someone has a fantasy like that, something they've been cultivating and dreaming of for their entire life since childhood, they know exactly what they want it to be. And it can't be something they're satisfied with unless they can have control over what it will end up like. That's the issue that everyone is missing. That's the reason she couldn't be happy with it. He didn't let the Belle Room be hers. He made it his.
Right? If only PB listened, he'd know that Diane didn't like grand gestures cause she constantly expressed that to him, and he would have instead suggested to her then that she could design a room in the house to be her Belle Room, instead of making it himself and expecting her to like it.
Diane is the best portrayal of depression that I've ever seen. It really sucks when you assume that achieving your dreams would make you happy, then it doesn't happen and you don't understand why you're still miserable. This happened to me as well and I really hope therapy and medications help Diane enjoy her life.
I don't think people who haven't been abused or suffered from mental illness can really understand the characters in this show lol
Didnt realise people didnt like Diane. Sort of reminds me how, for some reason, people hate Lisa Simpson
I found this video frustrating to watch because I saw the end of Season 4 soo differently!
I used to be married to someone with a very different personality than mine, so I actually found the conversation between Mr. Peanutbutter and Diane at the end of Season 4 to be quite familiar. I also thought it was a much healthier way to argue than their former solution (having sex to avoid arguing). While I was watching it, I could see how much they really love each other, but both struggle with how different they are from each other. Having experienced that myself, I can't relate to the hate for Diane out there at all because to me, she wasn't having a hissy fit. She was being honest with her husband. I don't think she was being cruel to him at all, and she even apologised for her reaction!
The scene on the roof where she's talking to her friend and Todd shows up, on the other hand? That one did make me think she's not a great person.
It was easy to pedestalize Diane early on in the show because she was so different from the main character on a fundamental level. Same with Mr. PB. Now we're starting to see that we just didn't know her as well as we thought we did.
I seriously LOVE Diane. She's one of the characters I've seen in anything recently who I relate most to.
I think Bojack Horseman is a great series to relate to for people who feel a bit broken and I see a lot of that in myself to Diane.
I also related my relationship to that of Diane and Peanutbutter, my bf (who I've just split up with, which probably shows how problematic Diane and Peanutbutter's relationship is) was the more positive go getter but also kinda oblivious to the needs of their partner when it isn't entirely obvious.
They're a couple that often don't work, there's something really great between them at times but it just doesn't match.
Everyone thinks they want to be happy, but when something goes wrong that becomes the biggest thing right there and so I UTTERLY ENTIRELY understand her reaction to the library which was as much from his own insecurities as it was about trying to please Diane (and I love that they showed such an insecure side to Peanutbutter in that overriding need to make the home part of something for both of them because of his previous wives who have left him). It's not about being ungrateful it's about sharing something that was yours, something personal and kept as your own treasured innermost fantasy no matter how inane it might have seemed and someone else making it theirs, which even with good intentions is ultimately what Mr Peanutbutter did with the library.
I hate that people dislike Diane. I relate a lot to her... and I like her fall, it's real.
"People love a hero, but what they love most is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. Eventually, they will learn to hate you." - Green Goblin
Diane made a mistake, just like any other character in the show, but because the fans had high standards for her in season one, the disappointment they feel is greater. One would think that we'd be over it by now since she proved back in season two that she wasn't perfect, but alas, we are not.
the fact that they were fake books is very important. and i think an important thing that's missing from this video ending is the question "is Diane a good character?" creating a character that's a good person is easy. creating a complex, flawed and relatable character is hard, and i think they did it.
Diane and Mr Peanutbutter wasn't a case of one person being at fault, it was a case of good people who loved each other, but were a bad match. I spent two years with a WONDERFUL woman who, despite doing nothing wrong, was a bad fit for me, so I personally relate heavily to their dynamic. "Just because you're both good people and you genuinely love each other, doesn't mean you're a good fit for each other" is something I REALLY wish more people understood, and I love that this show touched on the subject.
Gonna be honest; if someone took my private fantasy and made it a reality without asking? I'd be pretty pissed too. You may as well decide everything in my own life if you can't respect my boundaries. And to me, that's what Mr. Peanutbutter is doing.
I think you bought up some good points. But I find the analysis of her character kinda lacking. Before I continue, I understand that this isn't a video bashing Dianne's character so much as why other people might not be into her, my problem is with some of the analysis of her character and motivations and conclusions you came to.
Like what's the rationale behind saying it's a choice for her to be miserable? The very end clip where she's crying clearly shows that it's not a choice, as she's internally miserable and depressed, and because of that mindset and perspective, any and every situation gets distorted by that filter. The entire point, from my perspective, of the book scene is to illustrate how trying to find happiness in the external (perfect job, marriage, life, fame e.c.t.) is futile if you aren't internally happy. That Belle Room fantasy manifesting as a hollow reality because of the fake books represents the despair concealed by seeking something external or material to fix internal problems, only to find that your problems had nothing to do with not having those things.
Dianne would rather have that fantasy because it allows her to maintain the belief that something external can bring her happiness, because she doesn't know a way of changing that distorting internal filter to find happiness within herself. That's why she doesn't take the job in Season 2, and her fear of that lie unravelling comes true and she can't face Mr. Peanutbutter because their marriage has all the 'this'll make me happy' externalities she hopes will make her happy but knows won't.
So I think saying she's ungrateful because she's unable to appreciate these external things is a bit simplistic and lacks empathy in favour of categorization. If she isn't happy after all that stuff Bojack lists, it's just easy to say 'oh she's just ungrateful' and save yourself some thought. The questions should be 'why isn't she happy?', but instead an indictment of 'she SHOULD be happy, because i'd be happy' is made. That isn't stepping into someone else's skin, it's complaining that it doesn't fit your body.
To me, the entire point of her character is to illustrate the despair that comes from adopting and living moral values of 'what'll make me happy according to society', finding a way of being true to yourself while in this structure of living, and then realising the whole time you've been looking for someone else or something else to change the way you feel instead of doing work on yourself so you can be happy when that external, transient stuff disappears. Or the egoistic sphere as Kiekegaard calls it. The show isn't called existential for nothing, Dianne's arc is the despair of a egoist in the Kiekegaardian sense playing out, and I'm not sure the point is to judge or decide is she's a good or bad person, but to try and understand her as a person to find some truths about yourself out.
As a person who's suffered through depression, I can relate to her mindset because it doesn't matter what the stuff happening outside of you is, once it's gone through that filter, it looks like shit and you feel like shit because you know it shouldn't look like shit and you don't know how to change it.
Thank you for the critique. Always enjoy a different perspective.
My mistake was using the word "happy." I don't feel Diane should be happy. I feel she should be thankful. Personally, I believe that happiness is the ability to be thankful for what one has, including the ability to improve their situation, which is why I sometimes use to terms synonymous. Being thankful, imo, leads to being happy. Diane is not thankful and therefore won't be happy.
So, technically, you are correct, I should've been answering "why isn't she happy?" which I thought I was, but I was using misleading diction.
But, as I said in the video, I believe the important question is Diane's perspective rather than my own. Diane's advice about getting to do the Brady Bunch version of what one wants was very poignant, but then we see her not accepting things in her life because they're not up to her standards. Even if she has really good and acceptable reasons as to why, it brings about a hypocritical atmosphere when a character gives advice like that and then goes against it without themselves exploring why they are the exception to the rule, especially since most people agreed with her initial advice.
I really appreciate you taking the time out to reply to this, sorry if the critique was a bit strongly worded but I really related to her and felt she deserved a fair and nuanced defense seeing as she's a nuanced character herself. I'd like to thank you for making this video because it fosters interesting discussions into one of my favourite shows that wouldn't exist otherwise.
I'll say that the main thing I had an issue with wasn't your use of the word 'happiness' but the rather the thinking she Ought To Be Grateful for the Brady Bunch version of her life as you said. I was trying to shed some light as to why she wasn't grateful and it was everything to do with her being unable to find happiness.
In my experience, a shift of perspective has to occur before somebody depressed can become happy and therefore grateful. It wouldn't do any good for her to even pretend to be grateful because, fundamentally, due to her way of looking at things, due to her inability to appreciate the positive, this wouldn't even appear to her as an option. I think that you have to have this shift in perspective to be happy, and only then can it even occur to you to be grateful for the ability to change and improve, whereas I think your position was gratefulness precedes happiness. I think the ability to appreciate this is outside the scope of achievability fopr a depressed person because they objectively might know it but emotionally won't believe it, and since her relationship with Mr. Peanutbutter has to have an emotional basis, the fake books scene presented an irreconcilable challange to her to actually feel that gratitude as opposed to knowing she should feel it.
This is why I feel she liked Bojack's company; his own mindset reflected hers, and as you said, enabled it, so she didn't feel the pressure to be grateful around him. He was a holiday from that to her. I think she knows she should find value and a sense of happiness through being grateful, but there's a tension in her mind because she knows this but doesn't, and can't get herself to feel it. I think that's why she breaks down with Bojack asking why she can't be happy.
I think that you have to shift your perspective in order to appreciate things instead of the other way around as you suggest, and she's trying to do things and be around people who give her reason to be grateful in order to try shift that perspective and it obviously isn't working. Her misery is coming from the fact that she knows she should be grateful but can't seem to see a way to be because those things she's surrounding herself with aren't making her happy. I think next season maybe she'll realise that working on actualising herself will allow her this shift in perspective, but for now, she's still confused and saddened by the fact that she can't seem to appreciate the good in her life, which I could definitely relate to.
Thanks again for the reply, and especially for the video, it was effort well spent as this comment section colourfully demonstrates :)
I did not find your initial comment overly harsh. I always appreciate feedback, good or bad. Sometimes it hurts my feelings, but I'd rather that than have people comment nothing at all. As an artist, I seek critique. I am not always right and will only learn where I am wrong from people with different perspectives telling me so, so your critique is welcome.
Diane is trying to feel happiness without being grateful. Gratitude is an emotion in the traditional sense, but it is also a realization. Yes, you can feel it, but even if you're having trouble doing that, you can still recognize it. So unless they have trouble with reasoning, anyone can be grateful even if they don't feel it. While a depressed Person will have trouble feeling gratitude, they can still take the time to think "These are the good things in my life that I should appreciate."
Diane will do this from time to time, but only when things are going as expected. In the radical moments, she will instantly focus on what makes moments bad, even when most would find those moments to be good. Rather than recognizing that Mr. PB gave her a gift and that he was trying to improve, she focused on the fact that he failed to improve. Rather than recognizing that St. Claire was helping people, she focused on the fact that he was a narcissist and that she couldn't grow attached to those she helped.
Diane does need a change in perspective to FEEL gratitude, but not to BE grateful. To do that, all she has to do is count her blessings, which is something she advocated for in season 1. Until she learns this, she'll never be happy.
Know it's an old vid, but my two cents:
The reason I personally can't stand the character is precisely because her flaws are the most "realistic" and with that comes an increased opportunity for them to strike a nerve that's raw from some real-world experience I had with an actual person. I don't KNOW a washed up, substance-abusing actor, or a workaholic talent agent, or movie producers, but I feel like I've known *tons* of both male and female Diane Ngyuens (hell, I was halfway into my thirties before I stopped BEING one of those people). Her flaws I think are just the flaws of being in one's twenties, and at 36, just because I remember what it's like to be that age -- the inflated sense of self and my place in the world, the tendency to blame literally everyone but yourself for your unhappiness, the 24/7 "why don't I have MORE??" disappointment -- doesn't make me suffer those types any better. Incidentally, though, her leaving Mr. Peanutbutter was NOT a reason I disliked her. I've both left and BEEN left for that reason. That's just growing up, and it's honestly one of the things that made me hopeful Season 5 Diane might have a bit more self-awareness (contrary to what people who hate her solely for that decision might be inclined to think, putting the axe to a stagnant relationship is 10 times harder and more mature than staying in it out of loyalty. Just trust the word of an oldtimer who's been on both sides of both alternatives). The show's certainly been full of good surprises.
The library gift and what it represents is an amazing piece of writing. On the surface, it looks like the kind of grand gesture that makes the wholesome happy ending that one expects from any other tv show. It seems like Mr. PB really listened to Diane, and wanted to make her happy and give her what she wanted. However, upon further examination the gift is as fake as the books in the shelves. Mr. PB did not give Diane the gift to make her happy, but to make her happy with him. Its a classic nice guy move. The gift is for her not to leave him. If he truly wanted to make her happy, he would never do a grand gesture. If he actually listened, he would never have tried to give her such a gift. Just as it is a fake library, it is also a fake gift. The only function it has as a gesture is to chain Diane to Mr. PB.
I'm glad that the show has a character like Diane; to me, at least, whether or not it's been done before, it doesn't focus on a specific archetype. They just made her a person, and it seems like the same thing happened to other people. It sounds as if she doesn't stick to one or a few notes.
I disagree with this, I think the point is that if mr peanutbutter had any real awareness of other people and how their desires differ from his own he wouldn’t have made the belle room for Diane or thrown that big party for her.
I don’t think he really knows Diane or wants to, sure he heard that she wanted a belle room by he didn’t hear what she said right after - that it was special to her because it was her own fantasy.
One thing I hate to see people not talk about or even acknowledge, is that in season two she went to a war zone. She didn't expect it to be so harsh and hellish, like few people do. She definitely did not walk away from that without some form of trauma disorder. Growing up in a military family, I definitely understood and related to the fact that all she did when she got back was drink and try to distract herself. Nobody wants to be alone with those thoughts. Of course it was going to take a while to recover from and she definitely didn't know how to deal with it healthily on her own.
it's scary how many people say "diane is relatable"
in which part?
being self righteous "know it all" who has to rant about everything adn everyone constantly pointing out flaws in others but the second she's held accountable for her shittiness she tries to shift the focus to some other bullshit like world wide problems
I am reminded of how Diane was once referred to in the show as "an Asian Daria". I own the complete series of Daria on DVD, I rewatched all the episodes over the last year. While both Daria and Diane are smart ethical people ever-so-slightly up on their high horses in a world of stupidity, Daria is pretty self-aware in ways Diane apparently isn't. Daria has a biting sharp wit and isn't afraid to us it to peoples' faces, whereas Diane tries to fit in more- yet ironically, Daria was relatively respected by her peers (even if they totally didn't get her) whereas most of Diane's peers don't seem to pay much attention to her.
I kind of wonder about Diane and Mr. Peanut Butter's relationship. At first, I thought she was with him because he was the only one who seemed to accept her in a world that largely ignored her- but then one sees how she doesn't like the kind of acceptance he gives her and might call out an inconsistency... but is it really? Like you said, she wants to be paid attention to and tolerated, but not showered with admiration. Maybe after so long of being left out, she's adapted to it and it has become her norm and ironically a comfort zone. While I do think Diane was horribly ungrateful for a romantic gesture that was supposed to grant her some positivity she never had growing up, I don't quite side against her. See, love isn't just mutually caring about someone else and wanting them to be happy, love is an extension of oneself- they are a part of you and you are a part of them. Mr. Peanut Butter is a happy dolt who wants everyone else to be happy, whereas Diane just wants to be left alone while pursuing what she thinks is right and meaningful. In what way are Peanut Butter and Diane parts of each other? Bojack is a miserable asshole who wants to be loved, but eventually learned does not want to be influential because he knows how destructive he is and sees love as only a way to lessen the misery... and maybe Diane does too. I can see them fitting together as extensions of- or rather complimentary to each other better than she is with Peanut Butter.
As you may recall, when Mr. Peanut Butter proposed to her, he did so claiming it was without cameras or spectacle- a statement that turned out to be blatantly false upon her acceptance and as such the engagement could be considered formed under false pretenses. And when they decided to bump the wedding date up upon Bojack's bank robber ruse, it was because Diane was still feeling insecure about her duplicitous feelings for Bojack and Mr. Peanut Butter and was trying to lock herself in with what she thought she had with Peanut Butter to make her choice more definitive and solidified; but that didn't really address the problem, it just covered it up.
Very interesting input to take into consideration. I don't know if I agree with all of it, but it is worth noting.
Yes, fully agreed. The descriptor of her as "Asian Daria" was something that could only be made by someone who completely misunderstood Daria.
The core difference is that with one or two very minor exceptions that occur within singular episodes, Daria is not a hypocrite. She has principles and is generally unwilling to compromise them. She doesn't fit in, but doesn't want to fit in because fitting in would mean giving up on who she is and what makes her her. She might make a scathing remark about someone veiled in sarcasm, but at the end of the day she doesn't harbour anything approaching ill will towards most people (even people like Ms Li, whom she merely jokes about instead of being angry about). While she doesn't want to fit in, she still wants to *belong*, to have friends of her level. That's why she can even infrequently get along with Quinn - they're both intelligent enough to get along, it's merely that Quinn is able to act more superficial and "fit in" while retaining her sense of self due to how compatible it is with fitting in.
Diane is a virgo
Men get frustrated with female characters that speak their mind and/or ask for something more/better from their partners. It should be called the "Skyler White" effect.
I don't really think that's a fair assessment. I've had female viewers also express their displeasement of Diane's behavior as well as male viewers who are defending her. Not to mention, Princess Carolyn, whom has been critical of her partners and very openly speaks her mind, has received very little criticism as far as I have witnessed, especially on the level that Diane is receiving.
Displeased with her behavior? Nobody behaves worse than Bojack but nobody hates him. And Princess Carolyn doesn't speak out against sexism and doesn't demand more from her partners, the exact things Diane does that causes people to hate her. In general, flawed male characters are considered interesting and deep, flawed female characters are considered bitches and nags.
I explained in the video why Diane's behavior is given more scrutiny then Bojack's despite Bojack's being objectively on the same level (though upon further examination, he's much worse). A vice can be forgiven or understood by many, especially on fictional characters, but certain vices, such as hypocrisy and intentional misconduct, are almost universally seen as unforgivable because they represent the character's inability to justify their own actions. I believe Diane would not receive so much criticism if she didn't present herself as someone who is above the acts she does and if she didn't openly state multiple times "I know what I'm doing is wrong." The combination of those two things makes it difficult to side with Diane, because she's basically admitting that she doesn't side with herself. Everyone loved Diane back in season one, and it wasn't because she was perfect, but because she was the most grounded and had a good moral compass.
Princess Carolyn constantly got on Bojack's case about everything he did, not only as a client but as a love interest. The first episode of the show has her demanding that she wants more out of their relationship, including children. She broke up her relationship with Businessman because of how distant he was, and she demanded Ralph put up with her attempts to keep trying to naturally have a child. Despite this, more people sympathize with her than they do criticize because, unlike Diane, people feel she's still stuck to her own moral code.
Flawed characters are seen as deep if their flaws work to their character. Nags are seen as nags, whether they're male or female. Beatrice is probably one of the most appreciated characters in the fandom right now, despite her getting on her husband's case for 40-some years (aka being a nag) and her mentally scarring Bojack throughout his youth, because the audience saw her as a bad Person from the start of the show.
Very few people are arguing that Diane's character is bad, it's just one that would make for a Person whom a lot would not be able to sympathize with.
Gender and critical (as in critical studies) analysis is intrinsically shallow and, by its very nature, ignores the substance of what's being analysed in favor of the critic's own biases. People hate Diane for many reasons. She's annoying and unfunny, and often isn't even a character as much as a billboard for the writers to project onto. It's impossible to make a consistent argument explaining the hatred of Diane in terms of gender or stereotypes simply because it isn't true. You don't know anything about psychology or how society works at large. You can't analyse real life like you can a book. That will never provide true answers. That's not how the world works.
I agree that's worthy pointing it out the discrepancies in how people respond to the actions of male and female characters. However, I think it's a disservice to reduce the criticism of this character to "sexism". It's a disservice to her, who is a very layered and complex character. She's more than the "female bojack".
My personal philosophy is that Diane sabotaged her marriage because she has feelings for bojack
I think Diane's issue is that she probably has a deeply internalized lack of self-worth. She has a mentality that she's not good enough and never will be and doesn't deserve the good things she's come upon in her life. This can be frustrating for people who don't experience this, especially for an upbeat kind of person who wants nothing more than to please like Mr. Peanutbutter, so we can sympathize with him, but I don't blame Diane, I just think people like this have a lot of work to do on their self-worth, and people who have had serious family issues like that or other life events that have made them feel inadequate all their lives can relate to Diane.
I think her... re-gression as a character, if we can call it that, is really just us seeing more and more of the flaws of a person who was doing a good job of hiding her issues before, as can often happen when you get close to someone like her. Her type of behavior is not really that uncommon. People like her tend to have a bad habit of messing things up and excel at doing so even when things are going good in their life consciously or unconsciously because they don't feel they deserve it. Yes it's VERY aggravating to be with people like that, but we have to understand that it comes from a place of pain. And peoples pain is one of the main pillars of this entire show.
This show, man. This whole fucking show. Everything it does it does in the most realistic way possible making it possibly the best show in current production but is apparently nowhere near as popular as I had originally expected. And how can it be? It is so real, it's depressing. One can't help being swept up in the overwhelming emotion and feel a deep, plunging connection with nearly everything hoing on and all the characters going through it. It's genuinely a difficult show to watch, especially when you see so much of yourself in it. Didn't it used to be we would watch shows as a means of escaping reality? So when confronted with such gritty realism, it can be really hard to watch and there are times when even I, a very avid fan of the show, feel like a sadist for enjoying it.
But that's what makes Bojack Horseman, Bojack Horseman. Taking out the status quo is god mentality we are so used to seeing in adult animated programming and actually DOING things that have genuine meaning and consequences for their actions is what makes this show so good. It really made me realize how disappointed with shows like Family Guy and The Simpsons when you go back and watch them and think...wow. if they just took a chance at change, this show and these characters that we've grown to love over 20+ years could be even more relatable.
But then the reminder that, very much like Diane, too much exposure to a character's flaws can make it hard to enjoy them as means of escape and schadenfreude can only carry on for so long before resentment inevitably sets in and you get a dissatisfied fan base like Diane has right now.
Truly you cannot experience a show like Bojack and not have incredibly conflicting emotions. But that's the power of this show.
As someone who's wrestled off and on with clinical depression for years, the whole "Diane is just depressed" defense doesn't hold as much water with me as I thought it would. While you can't really control depression, it doesn't necessarily absolve you from the things you inflict on other people while you're under its influence (so as not to be the hypocrite, I'm going admit firsthand that this was one of the most difficult lessons I myself have had to learn while juggling depression and adult relationships, so take my "knocks* at Diane as coming from the place of self-reflection that they indeed are). It's interesting that the divide has been made into a gender one, and I feel its a false one. I've seen tons of mostly female users chiming in, "Yeah, but his gestures weren't what she wanted, if he just KNEW her..." which misses the point that, really, regardless of gender, depressed people make *terrible* partners (terrible in the "not skilled at it" sense, not the "they're bad people" sense). Nothing pleases us because nothing *can* please us, and to make matters worse our depression often becomes a crutch for us putting forth very little effort into our relationships (that's neither an attack on depressed people or an excuse for it, just an honest assessment of how we date -- it is often overwhelmingly one-sided). I would have to rewatch the first four seasons, but have we ever really seen Diane do anything FOR Mr. Peanutbutter other than ... endure him? See, that's another depression pitfall, latching onto people we don't necessarily love, then resenting them for the "effort" it takes us to "love" them. I've certainly done it to people and have had other depressed people do it to me. I can guarantee you that in my worst state of depression, I could have described some equivalent of the Belle Room, have someone move mountains to give it to me, then be upset that they did because they "just didn't get me." It's unfair, regardless of whether it's unavoidable, and its being a legit illness isn't exactly a get out of jail free card. That may be callous to say, but it's often true, and I suspect the people who have a knee-jerk hatred of Diane are very similar to the non-depressed people I've "burned" in my relationships as well. I know I for one will enjoy the character of Diane tons more when she moves from, "I'm not getting what I wa-a-a-a-ant" to "I'm really tired of hurting people just because I'm also hurt." But that's part of the natural growth (it certainly was a stage in mine), and who knows, the writers may be gearing up for that. Cutting Mr. PB loose is actually a good first step. But that is a very, very complicated thing to admit, and it's much easier to just say, "Oh that's a very male reaction," or "a female WOULD say that." Man, I can't believe a show with a talking dog just prompted me to write all that....
Shows with talking dogs have power over us all. Scooby Doo keeps getting rebooted for a reason!
Great and insightful comment, btw.
To answer your question: the show isn't about who is and isn't a good person. One of the Major themes of the show is tackling being a good person. And Diane addresses that more directly than most - in the clip in the video where she explains there is no deep down, and when she can't answer when Bojack asks if she thinks he is a good person.
What this show does so well is break down the reality. And it actually draws a lot of similarities between Bojack and Diane. Both are after the things that will make them happy, but ultimately they discover that even when you have those things . . . they still aren't happy. Why should Diane be exempt from that? She strives for things the same as Bojack - they just aren't trying to get the same thing.
I also think the direction they went with her and Mr. Peanutbutter has been a long time coming. The show very quickly establishes the many times PB pisses Diane off by doing something for Him, not for Her. She explains her issue with the library in the show, which wasn't the gesture, not even that - it was the way PB took what existed solely for her and tried to make it tangible, so it wasn't just a fantasy. He took something intimate from her and laid it bare. That's what got her the most.
And of course PB is right, he has every right to do nice things for his wife, and make grand gestures, but we know, from S1, this isn't Diane. He is wrong for not understanding that, the same as she is wrong for not appreciating what he does. That conflict, those flaws, are what makes the show so endearing.
Now, Bojack has a history of self-destruction: it's the beating heart of the show (it's why I love the ending to S2). But if Bojack can be self-destructive then why not Diane? Like I said, they both just want to be happy, but find out that it isn't so simple. It never works out how you want it to. So Diane finally gets a chance to do some important work, in war torn Bordovia, but it's nothing like what she imagines. And then she's too much of a coward - which is a really, really great flaw for her - to return to her husband.
I think that's why Diane works - it's why moments like her not going to PB, her so called hypocrisy, her dismissal of PB's gestures, because she wants to be a good person; not just liked - a good person - but life doesn't always give us that. It's never so cut and dry. Her character is great for exploring that, the same as Bojack, just from a different perspective.
"Diane does not want happiness, she wants to be contempt."
Damn, that really hits home so hard...
I notice a lot of people in the comments, if not all of them, basically saying they'd back Diane 110%
Unna say that cause you see everything about her thoughts, life, relationships etc.
Diane >is an asshole, period, because she is *incredibly selfish* like, how could she get mad at Mr. PB for the library? She's only thinking about herself, not the fact that Mr. Pb was trying to make her happy as her husband. She needs to realize she is the cause of her own unhappiness, forget her family and everything else
She isn't a hypothetical, she exhibits a certain amount of cognitive dissonance
I'd be willing to believe that, and it's quite possibly the truth, however, Diane does not really shift beliefs entirely, she just adjusts them for herself. For example, she doesn't change her beliefs to thinking owning a gun is okay, she thinks women are the exception to the rule because owning a gun makes her feel safe and powerful. The mentality of "It's wrong when you do it but okay when I do it" might fit into cognitive dissonance, but it leans more into hypocrisy.
But since this video is about her relationship with Mr. PB and not Diane as a whole, you might be correct. Her hypocritical side shows more outside their relationship.
Good point to make, either way.
I think you don't know what "hypothetical" means.
The thing about the Belle room… look at how crappily it is designed. It’s messy, and THE BOOKS ARE FAKE. MPB took something incredibly special to her, that would always be hers, and ruined it.
Something that really bothers me is that everyone is mentioning her childhood as the reason why she’s like this and yeah that a reasonable argument but to an extent. I don’t know if I’m remembering this right but I’m pretty sure earlier in the show Todd says that Bojack’s childhood shouldn’t be an excuse to be a shitty person. Todd says that he’s everything that is wrong with him. I think that we should apply this logic to Diane and that we shouldn’t just let her less than savory actions be justified by her childhood.
One of my many catchphrases is "That's a reason, but it's not an excuse." A Person's childhood can be a reason they act out, but rarely is it an excuse.
Shady Doorags Just wondering, what counts as an excuse?
FushiaRose
Reason - "This explains they did it."
Excuse - "This makes what they did okay."
If you're asking for specific examples regarding Diane, you'd need to be a bit more specific.
Shady Doorags She's used to there always being a catch to the things that she wants, therefore that's what she expects from everything in life. I don't blame her for doing so. It is an automatic defense mechanism she has from the events in her childhood. Instead of looking it through black and white why not look at it through a nuanced view? That's what people are trying to say.
Why do we expect characters to be perfectly moral when we don't hold ourselves to that level?