Bojack Horseman: Writing Relatable Characters
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- Come check out the writing of Diane in Season 6!
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This is why I still love UA-cam !!
@Frost Lothbrok Sure Jane.
Zee Nooo it's....it's Jan".....just so you know
It's absolutely insane how many people use the term 'ungrateful' to describe Diane. It's almost as if they hold her to a standard that they don't hold any other characters.
They think that women have to love men just for their love no matter how they treat them
Holding someone to a standard.... Hmm sounds like the audience is full of Diane's.
Two words : *Internalized misogyny*
Sammy N «Not everyone who doesn’t like a character because they have a uterus » another brillant though to share with us , captain obvious ? Not only it isn’t the meaning of internalized misogyny but nobody suggest that. You should consider calm down, drink a glass of fresh water and actually make some research before whining about the use of word that you barely know.
I already made a very, very long comment on the topic answering the «why Diane is the only one getting any hate », what is internalized misogyny and why Diane’s character trigger this part of ourselves, both men and women (because if you put more time actually trying to educate yourself instead of being trigger you would have understand that it concerns everyone) and finally Why Diane appeal more to men than women. Since I am not a private teacher for lazy dudes than whine every time we discuss about gender I am just going to do a very very short and incomplete resume. It will leave you the immense privilege of....thinking with your own brain and making research !
Long story short ; Diane is the only convince feminist of the show, how call people on their bullshit no matter who they are. She was also spouse that couldn’t handle that her husband wouldn’t consider her feelings or would stand against her personal beliefs (something that HEAVILY trigger the man fandom). Her tendency of holding herself to a higher standard aswell as others is something than the women fanbase relate the most, in fact Diane whole story is more relatable to women in general. The man fanbase of this show itself put Diane on way higher standards than they put Mr. PeanutButter and Bojack despite one being equally worst than her and the other being way much more terrible. There is a reason to it. Part of it is internalized misogyny (that you will search the definition by yourself, since you are a open minded and smart boy) : it is something that subconsciously make us judge women way more harder especially in entertainment (tv shows, series). Trying to denying it like a crazy dog that was hit by a stone instead of juste accepting in an attempt to may be rethink about our view of the character moving on is just... concerning. It makes you wonder how scared are some men about a simple discussion that involves gender, to the point of denying a subject... that they don’t know just for the sake of denying it. It also makes you wonder you’re real thoughts about gender issues. Anyway, I probably will miss another message, I saw this one by luck. So I just hope in the future you learn to actually consider what other are telling you instead of going on a rant and going full denial mode. Like, chill, enjoy your life, it’s not that deep.
@@ApatheticPyrite thanks for that
Why is it that people have had such a distaste for Diane when Mr. Peanutbutter’s life is precisely an example of a completely not relatable character..?
you know why
Mr peanut butter was likable, sometimes even when he was annoying, and plus this dude just said relatability was a spectrum so watch the video next time?
Hes actually fun. And people love dogs.
@@nicholasmaniccia1005 MPB was insufferable. Being "nice" "upbeat" and "positive" all the time while simultaneously being selfish and not listening to what other people are telling you and generally being phony and spineless is MADDENING. That's why he ended up alone.
@@toomielola3495
I don't think Mr. Peanutbutter was phony I think he always genuinely cared he just also was terrible at listening which was the point
I dont know a female fan who didnt relate to Diane. Her story has so many specific nuances for growing up as a tomboy-ish booksmart girl.
I didn't like diane until she started taking antidepressants.
Right. I feel mysogyny is playing a bigger role than most are willing to admit.
He did discuss in the beginning of the video how appearence/gender/race/background all have a factor in relatability.
Maybe the massive hating of midseries Diane is a reflection of the greater demographic of Bojack fans?
Maybe, hopefully, because of that those fans are able to better relate to some women in their lives that they wrote off as selfish without thinking deeper about not only what made them do this or feel this way, but also how the guy himself has the same/similar problems with himself and his actions.
Because if Bojack, even after the shittiest things he's done, was a more relatable character because they understood where he came from, but couldn't make that same connection with Diane until her most relatable issues were boldface spelled out for them, than they need to take a deeper look at themselves and how they view women, or others in general who do not look like them.
Andrew Olsen right, I think there’s a similar thing going on here that you saw in Breaking Bad and Mad Men fandoms. Where the deeply DEEPLY flawed, down right villainous (in BB’s case) male protagonist is supported and well liked while their female partners or main characters are viscerally hated.
Race and gender do have some impact of relatability and that's why having diverse representation is important
Diane was the most relatable character. A struggling, millennial-aged person trying to fill that void of wanting to make a difference in the world, but not knowing how and often questioning if it is even worth it, yet not giving up. Wanting to do good but always worrying about how genuine the root of that "want" is. Often being perceived as bratty, bitchy, or unrealistically idealistic for trying to hold others accountable. Trying to find yourself and establish your identity while having to cater to others like Bojack and Mr. Peanutbutter. Let's not forget she was super young when she met/dated Mr. Peanutbutter (a trend for him), so a lot of the "bitchiness" in their relationship stemmed from Diane growing up, while still having all the aforementioned existential dilemmas, while Mr. Peanutbutter remained the same.
Relatable is relative, of course.
Thank you for writing this comment.
!!!!
I liked Diane the least in the last season. I'm pretty sure it's because she found happiness and peace and I resented her for it. Next to Bojack she was my surrogate in the show. I related to her more than almost every other character.
Then she gets to be happy, and I'm still me. I guess I really am a Bojack. Try and fail to be a person people want in their lives.
@@zachj7953 Well, I hope you've improved since then. If you relate to Diane, then perhaps you can find happiness like she ended up doing. :)
I think its interesting how the show accurately depicts the difference between men and women suffering from depression. Like most men afflicted with it, Bojack doesn't outwardly act sad around others, he acts aggressive and reckless in a passively suicidal way. Meanwhile Diane is more openly sad and exhibits behaviors more commonly expected from depression like self isolation, binge eating, and so on. And if someone has had depression and can't relate to one, then they can surely relate to the other. Clever writing.
definately explains why most men with depression I know didn't relate to Diane
This is actually a brilliant revelation, oh shit....
Oddly enough as a woman when I got depressed I expressed it by becoming angry and hostile toward other people, isolating myself, and drinking too much. I don't remember ever really feeling sad; just constantly pissed off and hopeless. That's probably why I related more to BoJack than to Diane. (I'm doing a lot better now).
@@katietaylor8314 ofc it's not an absolute rule that women have to experience it in that way.
I think it just depends on person and how your depression "went" and to which traits you relate more. I myself as a man could relate to both of them, because just like bojack I used drugs/alcohol abuse as a coping mechanism, but also like diane's self isolation, binge eating etc.
Men: I don't relate to Diane at all
Women: I have been Diane
Couldn't have been said better
As a guy, I've actually related to Diane. Because I see this hypocritical hate within myself, her depression is more relatable to me then Bojacks.
Diane’s portrayal of depression is the example I use when I need people to understand what chronic depression can be like. “Flipping over Nothings” is by far the most relatable description of chronic depression I’ve ever heard
@rainbow road : gets super offended at a joke
Guys, not all men don’t relate to Diane dame
Edit: but that’s no what this person is saying so chill (what I said wasn’t easy to understand sorry)
The harsh judgement of Diane has been full of sexist notions by the audience in the past. It was like at some point every dude saw every girl who ever annoyed or rejected them in her. But in fact Diane has always been an extremely well written, fleshed out character that even functioned as a moral compass to Bojack most of the time. And just like in real life, a lot of men who watched the show reacted to her exactly like men IN the show did- whenever she called them out on their bullshit or discussed feminist issues: with anger and defensiveness. Her character obviously pushed a lot of buttons for many male viewers. Especially those who seek to celebrate the Bjoack, Rick or Charlie Harper personas of the media world.
For many many female viewers though, Diane has been a favourite character right from the start. I´m glad she got some more overall recognition in the end.
Who are rick and charlie harper?
lol yea CSU’s it’s always sexist
*"men who watched the show reacted to her exactly like men IN the show did"* UFFFFFFFFFFFFF you hit the damn nail in the head
Okay, can we celebrate yet again how the male fanbase was called out by the writers through Diane when she criticized Philbert? Like, damn, even I felt called out, and I was not even the kind of person that glorified Bojack.
As a *woman* , Diane spoke to me in different levels. Even tho I loved princess Caroline, and I relate to her. Diane, is who I actually am.
I extremely related a lot to how her depression works.
Most women I know, relate to Diane the same way, she feels like realistic female character. She is literally my favorite character from the whole series.
The people that I've seen that have complained about her, are usually men, and that made me realize how unusual is to have realistic female characters in the media.
I hope we have more characters like her in the future.
@@asscheeks3212 I am from a post soviet slav country and you're so wrong. The culture here isn't VERY different. At least not in every post-soviet countries, maybe in some less developed. Women have equal rights here. Women having equal careers hurts literally no one, it doesn't mean they don't get to ever have children. Ever heard of maternity leave? It's not anti-biological, women excel in school and are as smart as men are, it only makes biological sense for them to work. As they have worked in almost every single stage of history, even before there was a proper civilization. Religion is what always fucks everything up, that's why women had to be so passive (meaning they worked unpaid at home or were only allowed to do less paid jobs like teachers or nurses) in some stages of history, and religion surely isn't anything scientifical or based on biology, it's a patriarchal fantasy book. Women having equal careers only means they can be independent. Men don't get to have power of money over them. Which is what it *always* comes to when men are the only one having good paying job, no matter how you picture in your head. Men being the one with money means women can't ever leave them, have to endure abuse and more because the have no other choice. Women being 'more important' because they don't go to war is such a fake thing made up to make things seem less unfair to women. Women in all patriarchal societies are deemed less important then men, just a lot weaker so unfit to fight. Women wanting to fight get ridiculed, bullied and often raped by their own before they even have a chance to fight. And 'men need women for reproduction' doesn't mean anything in the importance of genders, did you forget that women also need men for reproduction? Reproduction is just not presented as men's only importnat asset as it is with women, so that's maybe why you think of it in that way. But they are both equally important.
She is great and the first female outspoken feminist character to seam genuine and not be the butt of a joke.
@@Hayden_Cat she is what britta from community should have been
Marie Rojas EXACTLY
I LOVE how outspoken Diane is about feminism, it's such a breathe of fresh air.
Bojack Horseman is one of those “I wish I could have written that” series. I fear that nothing I write could ever match it.
Fear not, my friend! Nobody thinks their work is as good as that of the greats, not even the greats themselves. You won't know if your work is great until you finish it and share it with the world.
The show needed time to get as good as it got for seasons 4-6. You shouldn’t worry and just take it a step at a time.
I usually feel the same, but I try to tell myself that the difficulty to match shows and books this good makes writing more exciting. It isn't easy, and that means I, and I suppose you too, gotta work harder. But maybe, just maybe, it will be worth it.
sorry if I misspelled something, English isn't my first language--
Your skill as a writer is exactly where it needs to be. Revel in your growth by giving yourself reasonable challenges you know you can overcome. You can do it.
We all believe in you!
Diane was a lot easier for women to relate to than men. A lot of men can't understand the mindset of an 'SJW' woman without deep context, where a lot of women immediately understand why Diane fights, and why she holds people to such a high ethical standard.
For a lot of men she's 'being political for no reason' or they look for a reason to discount the good things she's saying because of the bad things she does because she's so relentless in her pursuit of a better future.
100% of my friends that have said Diane is 'unrelatable' have been male friends that lean centrist to conservative.
I genuinely think it's just harder for them to get into the headspace.
This. I noticed a lot of conservative people who dislike her the most, especially since she has feminist views and is vocal bout them.
I completely related to Diane the whole way through and was shocked when I found out others hated her! I think a lot of this may say something to the female experience; often women feel that they must always hold themselves to a high standard or they aren't good enough (we see this in Princess Carolyn too). I recognised a lot of myself in her, pre and during season 6.
I think it's significant that almost every woman I know who watched the show related to and liked Diane, while most men didn't :/
That's my experience, too.
Just what I was thinking. Maybe Diane is not relatable for MEN. We don’t have the same life experience as them.
It’s just grating when Diane fans automatically assume anyone who doesn’t relate to her is inherently a mysogynist
Christian Indelicato who said something about misogyny? We’re only saying that men don’t relate to Diane because they don’t have the same life experience.
I feel like Diane is a victim of the "Skyler White problem" - realistic, relatable female characters, who also happen to be fully fledged characters independent of their womanhood, getting a ton of backlash for being a "killjoy" or a slightly antagonistic force in the male protagonist's emotional journey. It's an antiquated misogynistic reaction, for sure, which has roots in the idea that women's stories should be secondary to the men's, and that women having agency and character beyond being an accessory to the male is often seen as "annoying" by male audiences. Which is a sociologically rooted problem that unfortunately still exists prevalantly today.
But this is exactly why I love Diane and (along with Bojack) find her to be the most relatable character in the show for me. Despite being male, I related to all her struggles the most - the implosion of her relationship(s) due to struggling with communication, the constant strive to find happiness in a world which fundamentally thrives off of unhappiness, and especially her caring a lot about the problems in the world and holding herself and others to a high standard yet simultaneously failing to live up to that standard. Her finding her zen in season 6 was very therapeutic for me, and it didn't come out of nowhere - the story had always been about Diane almost as much as it had been about Bojack, but since we view the show from Bojack's perspective more, the character growth of the others is not as readily apparent.
THAT that is the reason why pretty much every girl goes through "im not like other girls" phase.
@@metal8355 Both of you are... so spot on. Thanks for putting this into words better than I ever could have. Man, I really feel for girls and women. A lot better than 100 years ago ~I guess~, but that doesnt really mean anything. Some of the shit that is still prevalent in society, getting promoted by men and women alike, it just makes my blood boil.
Stay strong out there, we'll all make it through this.
Thank you for writing this!! I couldn’t have said it better myself! I found myself relating to Diane the entire series. I love how the writers made her a character instead of some “manic pixie dream girl” every other show creates for their female characters
perfect comment. thank you!
This comment is what we should all look up to. Brilliant explanation!
Oh wow I didnt even realize people didn't like Diane. I've known women who are remarkably similar to her, so I guess she always felt very real and relatable to me; and I genuinely do like her.
she feels real but she also feels like the person I would do anything to avoid
@@mossmother3768 fair
most of the ppl who dont like diane are men lol. they just cant relate to her bc shes not a destructive force like bojack
@@zparkplug2788 that diesn't even make sense. I hate her with a passion...but I also hate bojack
I'm a man and I did a test too see which Bojack character I was and it was Diane, which I knew it would be
I think generally speaking, people who related to Diane at least understood Bojack too, but people who related to Bojack didn't understand Diane. I think this comes from a few different places, but mainly the fact that characters like Bojack are overrepresented in media already and characters like Diane are underrepresented. And it's always easier to use what an audience already knows to tell your story.
I definitely feel that. I think you're super right.
I get what you mean, but as someone who relates to a lot of Bojack's struggles, I actually love Diane. I think she's a fantastic character, and I think sexism has a lot to do with why people don't like her. But the rest of what you said I definitely agree with.
Honestly, I relate to them both ^^
The show has two primary representatives of depression; Bojack and Diane. However, due to the significantly higher prevalence of males as protagonists and in speaking roles (with women only making up some 31% of speaking roles in film) women are exposed to much more representation of male behaviour then men are of female behaviour - hence why women seem to be able to understand both characters whereas men seem to only understand Bojack.
HARD AGREE!!!
The way I interpreted Diane's frustrations with Mr. Peanutbutter, leading to their eventually divorce, is, and I believe this was even said in the show, Mr. Peanutbutter doesn't really do the big gestures for Diane, he does them for himself; specifically, he does them to prevent people from leaving him. Diane has throughout the show repeatedly told Mr. Peanutbutter that she doesn't like big gestures, but he keeps doing them, especially when he fears she's going to leave him. She also tells him that she doesn't like parties, but he keeps throwing and bringing her to parties. The episode Mr. Peanutbutter's Boos even highlights this by showing the first time Diane told Mr. Peanutbutter she didn't like parties, something she had kept hidden because she didn't want to be like his exes, and Mr. Peanutbutter says that he now that he knows this, they'll never be in this situation again, but then it keeps happening.
It's not that Mr. Peanutbutter doesn't want Diane to be happy, but we are shown that he has a clear understanding of what she does and doesn't like, but keeps doing things she doesn't like and expect to be praised and loved for it. And a lot of viewers don't get why Diane becomes frustrated with Mr. Peanutbutter, because they see it as Mr. Peanutbutter wanting to make Diane happy, but Diane is presented with a situation she doesn't like and is being socially pressured to be happy about it. A good analogy would be public proposals or even promposals; to some people, they come across as very romantic and sweet, but to others, they feel like social traps, especially if the person being proposed to wants to say "no"; they know that they're socially expected to say "yes", and that by saying "no", they're going to look horrible for breaking the other person's heart, even if they have a good reason to refuse.
Again, Mr. Peanutbutter is definitely not doing this to be manipulative; his big gestures could even be seen as his own self destructive tendencies, born out of his fear of being alone. But it does frustrate me that people say Diane getting angry with Mr. Peanutbutter over his big gestures is her not wanting to be happy, as it creates this narrative that it was only Diane's fault that her marriage with Mr. Peanutbutter failed, when he had his own flaws to figure out too. And, sorry for making another analogy but, it's like if your significant other kept giving you roses on your dates, even though you've repeatedly told them you're allergic; just because most people would be happy to get a bouquet of roses on a date, doesn't mean that others can't refuse them, or aren't allowed to get mad when a loved one keeps ignoring their wants, in favor of fulfilling some romantic trope that you never even asked for
“This character isn’t personally relatable to me therefore they are badly written”
I have to disagree here: Diane was the most relatable character for me. I honestly thought that her major flaw (not knowing how to be happy... or better, being used to sadness so much that she considered it to be part of her own identity, and having high standards for everyone) was clear since season one. Maybe because our psycology is very similar? Ironically, the part of the show where I can relate with her the less is the season finale.
I never hated Diane, she was one of my favorite characters and it made me sad when I saw that so many people hated her, but I can understand where they come from. Even though you are very right about why she wasn't relatable, she was relatable on many levels for me, heck she became less relatable for me in season six, but I guess that says more of me. I got sad and didn't agree at some of her actions when she made mistakes or hurt people, but I saw it as that, mistakes, and I could kinda see where she came from. I guess we all have different experiences in life, but I didn't see her as a bad person, just a hurt one, and sadly wanting it or not, sometimes hurt people hurt others too.
Completely agree! Most relatable to me, I related to her about 80-90% of the time. And that line of: “Your problem is you hold people to impossibly high standards, including yourself” REALLY hit me. I was even in a relationship with a Mr. Peanutbutter at the time lol
I agree. She was never wrong, she saw the world for what it was and tried to be better than the world she is in by pointing out the flaws in others. But that was her main function to the show and it didn't let her grow as a character. She could only really grow once she had ditched the relationship with MrPB. She loved the idea of the life she had in LA more than she loved that life. The point of S6 is that she was better at seeing other people for who they are than she was at seeing herself, so it made sense that she could write books about someone else quite easily but not one about herself. I love Diane. I think the haters are the kind of people that love to point out hypocrisy as a means to devalue something, like as if being a hypocrite means one's point is invalid. Diane's points are still valid, she was never wrong, but she is undoubtedly in a happier place once she learns how to focus on herself rather than others.
I also never hated her. And I think people that claim she is "ungrateful" have clearly never been repeatedly not listened to by someone close to them. Like in the show right from the get go we have Diane telling Mr. PB she doesn't like bit parties or surprises and he repeatedly doing those exact two things. I thought she was the best character in the show through out.
I hated her she was very hypocritical and always acted like she was the victim
@@cabbagegreens853 and bringing up Sarah Lynn to Bojack was incredibly shitty of her.
Whoa. You think Diane was the 'Bojack Horseman' character who intially had exceptionally unrelatable experiences? 10:49 We know nothing of her experience writing 'Secretariat.' She hasn't exactly reached a J.K. Rowling or Tom Clancy level of celebrity. To start the show's narrative, Diane is hired as a ghost writer. Anonymous. Invisible. And for BoJack? Bojack has been mostly MIA in the pubic eye for 18 years. Not glamorous. She spends the entire first season being the voice of reason and trying to get some honesty from BoJack. And we learn how her family has complete disdain for her.
The Golden Globe is obviously a dig at the awards industry in general, making a mockery of the inappropriateness of a movie award for a book. And, who received the Golden Globe? Oh, yeah. BoJack did. She's background. She is the definition of Mundane.
Glamorous? She met Mr. Peanutbutter while working at Starbucks. When she divorces him, all she can afford is a complete shithole studio apart in a sketchy area.
While putting off the Billionaire philanthropist, she was hired as a consultant for the 'Secretariat' movie and is COMPLETELY marginalized and instructed to tell people not to trip over some wires. Which she failed at. She was then asked to write. A sign. Telling people to watch out for the wires.
When she did go to war-torn areas to write for an even bigger egomaniac than BoJack, she FAILED. She quit. She couldn't take it. She told herself that she was there to try and make a difference. But, really, she was just avoiding a failing marriage. Failing marriages. Very super not glamorous. She then spends the next few months hiding out drunk, unwashed, completely depressed at BoJack's house, hiding from her failing marriage.
Riding in a car. Across a Trans-Pacific bridge. 11:12 With her husband. In bumper-to-bumper traffic. How is this extraordinary? How many cars would have to be on a 2-lane (one direction) 2,500 mile bridge to create gridlock? Lots and lots and lots. According to the 1980 movie "Used Cars," a mile of cars is about 250 cars. 2 lanes. That's 500 cars a mile. Assuming this is more of vacation bridge rather than a commuting bridge, I'll assume an average 2 people per car. That's 1,000 people a mile. So that's about 2,500,000 people on that Trans-Pacific bridge. (How do you like my research? Not bad, right?) One of 2,500,000 people. Stuck in traffic. That is not exciting. AND THEY NEVER GET TO HAWAII. They stay at the equivalent of a Motel 6, and Mr. Peanutbutter swims off with a school of his fish fans.
The collapsing house....really? Diane hates parties. Hates the reason for this party (Fundraiser for Mr. Peanutbutter's CA Governor bid.) HATES the reason the house collapsed, because Mr. Peanutbutter allowed fracking under their home. It becomes 'Lord of the Flies' in there, with Zach Braff actually being murdered. Diane's husband is almost murdered. AND she wasn't with the stars anyway, she spent the whole time getting drunk with BoJack. AND her home was destroyed. This. This is your example of her glamorous life?
"...directly contributing to getting guns banned in California." She didn't want guns banned! All Diane wanted was feel comfortable and safe around men. By owning a gun. When other "hysterical" women did the same, it made men nervous. So they banned guns. This does not make her glamorous. It makes her defeated.
Every single example you gave of Diane being exceptional is poor. The circumstances she's in may be exceptional. Hollywoo and all that. But EVERY OTHER CHARACTER in the series is in that same circumstance.
I have nothing to add, just wanted to say that I love this comment
Thank you! I was looking for this comment.
I generally like this channel's analysis, but I think they missed so, so many important points on this one.
Good comment, thank you!
omg thank you!
I find the implication that the writers of Bojack made Diane "finally relatable" in season 6 to be a bit odd coming from someone who loves the show and its writing so much. It's clear from reading the comments from people who always loved Diane that she was a fully fledged character for much longer than just the last season. None of her final season came as a surprise to the people who always had faith in Diane, and, as one user put it, the final season was less a 180 for her character and more of a landing strip. A conclusion to her arc.
Perhaps it's my love for her character that's blinding my analysis, though I really really hope that's not the case, but I believe Diane's storyline having a direct parallel to Bojack's life in an extremely mundane setting was the writers' way of screaming at the viewers "Look! She isn't a bad person!"
The creators of the show have a habit of pushing ideas further and further, making them more blatant each time, when they feel like the audience isn't on the same page as them. For example, they did this throughout Season 5 with the filming of Philbert, the movie that paralleled Bojack's life to a T. In fact, they made it so clear that Philbert was meant to resemble Bojack by showcasing how Bojack himself couldn't tell reality apart from the filming process. At the end of Season 5, Diane gives a speech about how she didn't mean to glorify Philbert or make him so relatable to the point that shitty guys would put him on a pedestal. This was the writers' way of expressing their guilt in accidentally making Bojack so relatable that perhaps even the worst people were seeing him and thinking "My actions aren't so bad after all."
Season 6 was a natural conclusion to Diane's story. She was never meant to be an LA girl, and it made sense for her to finally settle down and work on her own mental health. Her final arc was simply a way for the writers to take Diane away from her crazy life and show her in a more mundane element so people such as yourself or many of the other viewers who previously didn't care for (or even disliked) Diane to get an opportunity to see her character for what she truly was all along, without the distraction of nuance that her past situations always had.
I also felt as if it was a natural ending for her character. To me, people who disliked how long she stayed with mr. Pb didn't understand how hard it is to care deeply for a relationship and wanting it to work and it just not working.
it's more impressive to see someone saying how to rewrite a character when it's so clear that he doesn't understand shit about writing
@@larabarcelos5596 I wouldn't say he doesn't know shit but it's very clear to me that a lot of Bojack youtubers have such a different perspective of Diane. I'm a young twenty-something white guy, but I always thought Diane was super relatable and an amazing character. Although the perspective of Bojack was something that made sense to me, Diane seemed like a picture of depression/anxiety that I could find more of myself in. Bojack's depression made him lash out and self-destructive. Diane's depression made her overly-critical and a perfectionist. Diane never seemed like a bad person to me, just another flawed character in a show full of flawed characters. Diane and Bojack are two starkly different images of depression and anxiety, and to me, the only reason people hate Diane so much is because the show isn't told from her perspective. People naturally empathize with Bojack because the show is framed to make him empathetic even though he is objectively more of an asshole than Diane. It's such a tragedy the show didn't do more for Diane until the last season, but I'm glad people are coming around to her now. To me, the show doesn't really start until season 4 because that's when the show expands beyond being simply Bojack's nihilistic musings and becomes a show about flawed people redeeming themselves. Mr. Peanutbutter learning he needs to grow up, Princess Carolyn learning to slow down and not compulsively enabling Bojack, Todd figuring out who he is and becoming comfortable with himself. It's just such a shame a lot of Bojack's audience missed the symbolic importance of the expansion of the show's scope mirroring Bojack's expanding perspective and internal growth after Sarah Lynn's death.
I was just thinking this while watching the video, it's like the writers were trying to show the audience as clearly as possible, how similar Diane and Bojack always were, not that they became more similar in season 6
You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around, THATS what it’s all about.
And now I'm crying. Great!
Duncanida Atreide aren’t we all
Max Y wish it continued for at least 1 more season but i understand 😔
That's honestly just one of the best lines of the show and he's one of not the best character imo
I personally felt that Mr. Peanut needed more character development towards the end, but Todd and Bojack in the last episode was so wholesome. I was totally in support of Todd distancing himself from Bojack until than. Yes, it may have been harsh but Bojack needed to get his mess together and Todd needed room to grow and flourish. It’s nice how it turned out in the end.
Yeah. Though I have to say that I originally dislike Mister and thought he was going to turn villain I am now in love with this flawed but caring partner and I cheered out loud when Bojack gave him his cross-over episode.
I would have loved Peanutbutter-focused episode.
@@akrybion Woulda been cool if they`d done a few episodes actually.
I was hoping for more screen time for PB, too! (And Todd). I'm sure it had a lot to do with their planned 7 seasons being cut down to six and not having the time for it, unfortunately. I'm hoping someday the writers will be able to release more information on what they had planned. Maybe a synopsis for episodes that had to be cut or even something like "Oh, yeah we wanted to do _____ with Mr. PB and then ____ would happen, but it had to be cut for time" would be awesome to hear.
I always thinked of Mister Peanut Butter oos like the Mister's episode but that episode what kinda dissapointing
PB went nowhere in the whole series. He was pretty much still the same at the end as the he was at the start. He still promised to be there for bojack like he always promises (and fails) to do.
I don't think that Diane was unrelatable, but I think she appealed to a different demographic. As an Asian-Canadian woman, I think this related to a lot of stories that the Asian diaspora experiences when it comes to achievement, imposter syndrome and expectations. A lot of immigrant children are constantly compared with their siblings and are encouraged to be over-achievers who, despite the accolades, never gain the approval of their family--hell, Diane doesn't even exist to them and like many, turns away from her family. Enter Mr. Peanut Butter who loves and supports her endeavours unconditionally (for the wrong reasons aka him being stuck in his 20s) but despite a seemingly perfect life as a writer and spouse, her relationships and work ultimately lack meaning. She feels misunderstood by those around her and wants to do something impactful and purposeful; this is a dream for a lot of people in in their 20s and I can't look away from many Asian-Americans my age who feels like their professional careers are devoid of meaning too. Sometimes, I felt confused by her actions, but honestly it parallels some of the confusion towards the feelings I have in my own life as well--we don't always understand why we, or others for that matter, feel certain things or act in ways that we might not expect. Despite her seemingly mundane life in the last season, I think quieter life is what she wanted all along and I was really happy for her.
Like you said, I don't think a lot of us relate to the lives of people in Hollywoo all that much either. Maybe I don't relate to charmingly oblivious characters like Todd or Mr. Peanutbutter and all of their antics, but that doesn't mean that their impact and relatability to somebody didn't exist; Diane's presence as a character definitely spoke to the people it needed to and we noticed. In any case, I appreciate these thoughts and of course, a character like Diane from start to finish!
Diane always felt like the most normal character to me, and I guess it may be because I see a lot of myself in her.
It's not due to the ethnicity or anything (I'm born and and raised in America), but just her general struggles with her family and wanting to do *something* and dealing with depression and relationships and all that really spoke to me.
I think, for a lot of people, she embodied that sense of wanting to make a change. And I think that s6 wrapped that up nicely. She didn't change the world; she was never going to and neither is one person alone irl. But, she created stuff that likely affected many people for the better.
Idk just my 2 cents
I'm a Latino American and saw myself a lot in her,
*Hollywoob
@Roland Fraser Please re-read the comment, there's a lot being said there and you somehow missed it.
The the point of the comment isn't anything to do with the commentors Canadian-ness, but the fact that Dianne has commonalities that are relatable to them.
There are shared experiences Dianne has as a character, which not everyone is going to grok, but which make her particularly relatable to some people.
It doesn't matter where Dianne grew up in North America, and the commenter could have been from the UK and still felt similarly about the character.
It is about having parents who immigrated into an English speaking country some time in the last 40 years, maybe 'hoping for a better life' with all the expectations and worldview that creates, and carried a particular mindset and cultural values with them. With regard to Dianne's relatability, she is especially going to resonate with those in the pan-Asian diaspora. If you don't understand why then please consider doing some research using those terms-- it's always good to learn things about the world we live in and open a window to see into other people's lives and try to understand.
Yes! I’m guessing I am also part of the demographic Diane was supposed to appeal to being an Asian American. I have been a Diane fan since the beginning. All the main characters are relatable on some level, but Diane always stuck out to me. Her depression, her values, her background, her personality, her struggles all really spoke to me from the beginning.
If I had to rate the characters from most to least relatable to me it would be Diane, Princess Carolyn, BoJack, Mr. Peanutbutter, and Todd. Kinda interesting that I relate to the women characters the most despite being a dude. I also thought I’d relate to Todd more since we’re both queer. (I’m bi and he’s ace but still)
I really didn't think she came off as "ungrateful," at least not as a foundational characterization. Personally, I related really hard to Diane from the get go. We have similar personality profiles, and similar career goals. A lot of her journey actually helped me identify and acknowledge my own flaws--the way her relationship with Mr. Peanutbutter imploded, her career frustrations, her difficulty in dealing with her depression...honestly, there isn't much of anything I would change about her character. At any point in the show. She's one of the best characters in fiction.
The ungrateful thing just comes from people not liking that Diane wasn't happy for things Peanutbutter does for her.
I don't think Diane is an ungrateful person. After watching this video, I see really what's it about is a symptom of Diane not allowing herself to be happy. She's always either seeking "good damage" (expecting some sort of pay-off or resolution for all the negative in her life).
OR
holding herself & others to very high standards. Which for the most part makes her seem like she can never truly be satisfied.
OR
Looking at the negatives.
@Ruh I will never understand how that situation was ambiguous for some ppl at ALL. PB made her a gift she never asked for and she didnt like it. How is that a bad thing? Its like these people expect others to shower them with gratitude when they smother them with gifts and grandiose gestures even thought noone asked them for that. In fact, Diane has made it clear MULTIPLE times that she didnt like grand gestures at all and PB went ahead and did it anyways. How is anyone mad at Diane here? PB just ignored her and you expect her to fake being happy about it? Weird af
I never really saw Diane as a bad person.
She was the only one who was actively trying to be good
Todd was okay he's not an activist but he's a good guy
Mr.Pb and PC are enablers
Bojack is the bad guy
And people like him
gony paz Todd is the best to me tbh, people who try to be good tend to be the biggest manipulative people I’ve ever met.... people just want a friend, not a lecturer. Todd feels like alright guy compared to the rest
@@asscheeks3212
That makes no sense
I don't think that you know what "manipulative "is
Showing you things that they believe to be true to change your mind is not manipulative
I thought that too, I have seen many people saying that she was just as bad as Bojack, but Bojack was better because he could admit he was the problem, when Diane has an episode of her saying she is a void, and she is the problem, when I point that out I was told that it did not count because she was drunk at the time, as if most revelations Bojack had been not while he was heavily intoxicated.
@@Cloverfr and diane wasn't a generally drunk driving abusive to Todd asshole
All she did was not be happy with Mr peanutbutter because he wasn't listening to her
Good damage was the most i ever related to a character. I cried after watching that episode.
Miles Parker i cried so hard bruh
Same
Oh god, I cried *SO* much at that part
From time to time, when I feel like I need it, I watch that particular scene again
Literally just explained the idea of good damage to my therapist this week, I relate so much to it.
Diane is the best girl throughout the series, she’s my favourite too.
I have always related to Diane and always loved her so it came to a shock to me when I found out people didn't like her. Season 6 didn't feel like a 180 so much as a landing this plane they've been flying around for 5 seasons
agreed
couldn't agree more. everything was perfectly staged from the start.
exactly. if someine think it's 180, they just failed to see her beyond her achievement, despite the show consistently showing her inner feelings and childhood, etc
I actually feel surprised that someone would think Diane was NOT down-to-earth, relatable. even if you're not vietnamese american female who writes memors and celebrities' tweets.....you should be able to relate to her
The thought never even occurred to me that people didn't relate to Diane. She was the character I related to the most and I believe her and Bojack in season 5&6 played a big part in me going to see a therapist. This video was definitely an interesting perspective of Diane that I hadn't considered. You pointed out character flaws I hadn't noticed which leads me to think that perhaps I have some other blind spots in myself to explore.
Great stuff as always! Out of curiosity, have you seen Raphael Bob Waksberg's show 'Undone' on Amazon? One of the producers of Bojack is also a co-creator of that show (Kate Purdy)
Yeah, this baffles me, shes my favourite character, and also the most relatable one for me, event though I'm mostly a mix between her and Todd..sadly
I never really related to her, but I did like her, so it surprised me when I found out people didnt like her
haha I just wrote a comment stating the same. It impressed me too. I thought everyone liked her the most.
She’s my least favorite character. She had no chill and didn’t ever swallow her own pride to support her husband
Im so happy it helped someone! Makes my day honestly
I never hated Diane as a character. I love when she tells Bojack that she did not believe in "deep down" and that people are just what they do. It was such a simple way of looking at the world and I always liked how she expressed it.
How is it possible that someone so clearly invested in the show could have missed this for so long? Nothing about this is new to season 6, this is who Diane has been the entire time. And grounding your analysis in the idea that Diane was a "bad person" seems so woefully ignorant of the whole point of her character and the show in general.
You don't seem so defensive about BoJack being called a bad person...
@@psychotic17 because Bojack doesn't even try the whole time
@@psychotic17 that's a thing though, bojack little is a bad person. Look at everything he's done to the people in his life, especially Tod. Diane wasn't great, but she tried a whole lot harder than bojack. She got help, medication and by the end more or less finally did right by herself. At the end bojack still couldn't even admit that he ruined tods rock opera, on the chalk board where bojack wrote down his "wrongs" he completely ignored what tod wrote down about what he did to him. Diane just wanted to be happy, feel full and sufficient emotionally. Bojack was the same case, but literally hurt everyone around him trying to make himself feel better.
@@spahgettionos2152 yeah, who did diane kill?
@@psychotic17 Okay, Bojack IS a bad person, he deserves that tittle, while Diane did not really do something worthy of called like that, she always tried her best to be a good person, both are excellent character non less.
I disagree with your observation that Mary Sue characters are bad because their lack of flaws makes them hard to relate to. I think the real reason Mary Sue characters are bad is because they make all of the other characters two dimensional cardboard cutouts, breaking the illusion of a realistic world.
The anime 'Haven't You Heard? I'm Sakamoto' features a titular character with quirks but almost no flaws, and yet the story is engaging because the responses of all the supporting characters are believable.
@Instrumentality1000 Or, better yet! Watch the Overly Sarcastic Productions trope talk on Mary Sues because it's great! ua-cam.com/video/H2-GIY9RTqU/v-deo.html
(pretty sure OP here already has, but if not check it out)
Honestly I think Red does a better job talking about the trope than the actual trope page. Plus she has way more to say than the main-page, but it's more digestible than the 'talk' (argument) page tvTropes has on the matter.
I think Mary Sues are bad when they either have no depth of personality or don’t face conflict within the story
This anime sounds interesting, gonna watch someday!
Diane did NOT do an 180 in the last season. Her ending didn't surprise me at all, it just felt right. She being one of the three characters that had the most consistent, slow and realistic change, one being BH and the other PC, her reasons, feelings, struggles were not as blatant as the other two's. Mind me, I love PC, but in a way, she's a rather simple character. Her being like she is, we KNOW what her problems are, and how she's super stressed and stuff. Bojack is the main character, we get a good, full backstory, he is super slow in the making, but Diane... She never openly tells stuff. Some people may've guessed it, because they FELT it, and they relate to her. Diane's struggles are way more internal, and maybe it's due to who she is, but never openly shown; you have to make 2+3 to understand her. As a side but also main character, it's her role throughout the whole series: being there but not really. She's mistreated, misjudged, and struggling like hell, but always helping others. She's a delicate character, and I think she was maybe the most consistent in the whole series. No big jumps, just a slow, building up of an ending.
I don't know how the public would've seen her, had she been a male. It seems stupid, but I feel like it does make an impact. But right now, at this moment in time, she certainly is a female character.
Can't watch Shady Doorags. He seems to have this hatred of Diane that doesn't really stem from ANYTHING and all his criticisms against her are just him misunderstanding her character, completely overlooking the circumstances that occurred beforehand or after (Diane being "uNgRaTeFuL" is a popular one), and kowkey sexist.
*highkey
Completely agree with that. I really like most of his videos but as soon as Diane is brought up it just gets a little... ~weird~ ya know
completely agree
yes he very much indulges sexist and even occasionally racist viewpoints in his commentary and in his discourse in the comments. i've spent way too much time telling him he's wrong
I believe he misinterprets his lack of understanding of her character for lack of comprehensibility. He seems to think that because he can’t understand her, she is unable to be understood.
I loved Diane from day one, and could relate to her choices even if they didn't always make sense, so you know it feels kinda shitty when people hate her for seemingly no reason
same!!!!
lol no reason
Diane was already the character I related to the most, from season 1, and everyone saying they don't relate to or don't like Diane seem to just not see below the surface until it's pushed into your face in season 6. She's just as relatable as any character, I think she just speaks to a type of person that's rarely represented in an empathetic and well rounded way and is generally disliked in life and screen. Everyone on the show is larger than life, it's their personal journey that's relatable, and I got that journey the whole way through for Diane.
Diane has been presented as a mirror to Bojack since season one tho ??
It has been a constant parallel ???
Through the whole show ???
That's some strong clickbait but I did fall for it. I think it's pretty obvious why you didn't relate to her. She's a girl having a hard time understanding herself and the point of it all. She desperately wants to do the right thing all the time but continues to fall short on it. But unlike BoJack who could get away with it all (not the guilt mind you) and repeat his self-destructive behavior again and again, she could see it plain as day, right at her face, mocking her and she lets it. She couldn't drown it in alcohol and drugs. She had to smother it with a relationship. She has dreams, plans and values but she refused to face that ugly thought in the corner of her mind that's eating her up on the inside. It's why she was drawn to BoJack, they had it too but it weighed on her the closer they got. She could have easily drowned with BoJack in that charade of happiness but because she could see the danger, she turned back and found herself someplace she never thought was enough. A normal life. It's really boring when you think about it but for me, a girl that was raised with high expectations and was taught that women are either bad stereotypes or world changing trailblazers, it's crazy. You either got to be something or you're nothing. I know guys feel that too, it's a very human struggle. It's just that somehow, whenever I fail, I think that I have failed every woman there is. I don't know why I think that. It's so illogical. Yet it eats me up with every fuck up I make and I long to find something in all this nothing.
Just because he is a guy doesn't make him unable to relate with a girl. Like come on
@@gentlydown41 and yet....all of the girls in the comments relate with her lol
Exactly
Honestly it depends on your life experiences and opinions.
I'm a man and had the feeling I was Diane when I watched!
I don't get it. I've never not loved Diane. Ever. She and PC have always, always been my favourite characters. It blows my mind that anyone finds her objectionable or blase or even just not relatable. I've been Diane. I am Diane. I don't think I've ever related to a fictional character as much as I relate to Diane. It baffles me that anyone could feel indifferent or even hate her.
i think the most relatable part of diane's story is when shes writing her memoirs and shes trying to describe the bad things that happened, but she just cant find the words. she doesnt know where to even begin because when you live your life constantly miserable it all melds together, and explaining specific instances of pain is impossible because you always try to hard to not think about them. so you forget the specifics, but trauma rewires your brain. even if you dont remember exactly how it happened, the effect it has on your behavior and thought process and feelings is always going to be reflective of that. its a very painful thing to go through, and im really glad the show explored it
Its funny you mention Shady Doorags - I used to watch all his videos, but his hatred of Diane really grated on me as she has always been my favorite character; eventually I decided that whatever value his videos might have didn't make them worth watching for me because listening to him hate on her would just leave me annoyed.
I get that. It's nice that people can be honest but blatantly hating anything and complaining about it without any humor or awareness makes for very crappy entertainment. People who hate the character would like it though, vicariously living through someone being able to voice out their complaints. If there's no other value to the statement other than to just shit on a character, I hope people can keep their complaints to a minimum at least.
Same, I only watched a few videos but I felt like his overt bias about her character made me skeptical about some of his other points. Anyway, his perspective on her didn’t relate to me
Yeah I stopped watching his videos because of how he completely misunderstood and hated on Diane. It made it hard to trust his other opinions when he so clearly got Diane wrong.
Sean Henderson literal same. I couldn’t take it. He had such a vitriol for her that just oozed misogyny to me. I just couldn’t watch his videos anymore.
His video on Tuca and Bertie irritated me as well, but i still watched them to see other points. Still feel frustrated lol.
Dude I've related deeply to Diane from the very beginning and didn't understand why people hated her or didn't get her. This show has helped me gain some insight about myself and shown me flaws in my own perceptions..
I dont think that you need that phrase about good damage to know Diane's motivation along the show. You know that Diane is searching for the good in everyone, she is the only character (with Bojack) that knows is wrong about how to get to perfection.
It’s incredible that you and most people (apparently) never liked Diane. She is, to me, the most real and grounded character and her journey in this series (and also P.C.) is the most interesting in the show. Relatability is not the reason I watch Bojack Horseman. I don’t relate to any of the characters. What makes me watch this show again and again is the characters and their journey to become better people. And Diane has always been the most grounded character. And she has always been a mirror to Bojack. The self destructive behavior, the need for validation, that’s her struggle. Diane wants to be seen and validated. She wrote an award winning book but nothing changed, Mr. Peanutbutter, Bojack, PC, her boss from the social media job, the philanthropist, nobody cared about what she wanted. Even the audience. The most amazing thing about Diane’s writing is that she did all she could as a mirror to Bojack, but even a major part of the audience was able to see her. They didn’t change Diane. What happened with her on season 6 is the most natural and earned thing could happen to her. By accepting her depression, she was able to improve, just as Bojack did with his addictions and she was even the one who took him there. Diane never was the character that lived the extraordinary life, she always was the character that could see everyone’s flaws but her own. She was tired of squinting at her marriage because she was not seen by her husband, nor fans. The change for Diane in season 6 is that she found someone that DO listens, and then she could be someone capable to see herself. And that’s what makes Diane an amazing character. It’s sad to discover that that’s not the case for you and many people out there, but I’d like to invite you to see the whole show again, paying extra attention to her. She IS the mirror for Bojack. She is the only grounded character in the whole show. She makes the hard questions and that “makes her boring”. But she is not, you just need to listen to her, unlike everybody else does in the show until the end.
Well said! I wanted to say something very similar to this after watching the video but I'm really happy someone found the words to express it! I'd say the only difference for me was that I found the struggles of most characters very relatable and BJ and her were always at the top for me. Good job!
It's interesting that you say that Diane could see everyone's flaws but her own. I always thought Diane was the most aware of her flaws; especially since she tries so hard to be a better person despite them. We know this because Diane holds herself to these impossible standards of "goodness", even though she knows she'll never achieve them. I believe it's this gap between who Diane is and who Diane wants to be that is partially, if not completely, responsible for her depression. Once she finally accepts and becomes okay with this fact, she learns to move on and heal.
Very well said!
The dislike of Diane feels a lot like the dislike of Skylar from Breaking Bad. Like it comes down to a woman having realistic negative traits which is “annoying” but the main guy is literally over there KILLING people and he’s more “relatable”.
They're hated because they hold men accountable
Diane was very relatable
I really liked her before Season 6 because she represented a character who struggle through the "ideal me" and the "real me", not just someone who can be summarized by mere "depression". The psychological struggle in her is complicated and intricate. I felt terribly awful to realize that Diane is my favourite character of all while most people don't like her. This just tells me the frustrating fact that most people can't understand people like me(Diane). Just like Diane in the show: she desperately desire Mr.Peanutbutter to really understand him while Peanutbutter is like a person from a totally different world.
In my opinion, Diane was pretty much relatable from the start. Sure when you take a macroscopic view of her you get this big picture of a super successful women with a pretty good life but when you look at a more personal level the signs of her depression were there since season one. I mean, to me the episode where she goes to visit her family when her dad died is quite relatable seeing as she was an “outsider” in her home and the fact that we can all relate to annoying family members or not living up to expectations is something that I thought gave weight to her actions and opinions. She is the voice of reason but is flawed just like everybody else and that’s something I relate too.
Im not a writer or anything, but honestly I felt that Diane's character was always wrote to explain why she was who she was and the logic as to how she ultimately was her own worst enemy was always there.
I actually had to unsubscribe to Shady Doorags because his arguments was not only illogical but it started to seem like he wasn't making his points from a literary point of view but it turned into some anti feminist misogyny ideology based videos towards her in particular.
Maybe you see something different, but haven't re watched this show 12 times but I DO know when certain characters who act or do the same things as her is no where near placed under such a critical view as is placed on Diane.
Our experiences couldn't be more similar lol. I still like shady doorags but I can't listen to what's effectively him complaining about other people's opinions rather than just disagreeing with them. I always loved Diane and related almost too hard to her. :(
absolutely agree with you, it's shocking how many of the arguments against Diane as a character are just arguments against women in general
His video criticising Hollyhock for not listening to Bojack gave me similar feelings
Yh like bojack tells some incredibly well written feminist narratives which are just disregarded by a large proportion of the male viewership, its infuriating
@@Jai137 He made a video criticizing Hollyhock? Wow, I'm glad I unsubcribed when he was complaining about Diane already. I mean, is pretty obvious that the happy ending in the end was that everybody realized they should stay away from our beloved horse, including PB. Cause he had toxic relationships with all of them. And he now is given the opportunity to be responsible for his own life instead of putting this burden and responsability in others like he always did.
That scene where Diane breaks down and admits that she stopped taking her meds because she "deserved" her depression. Like that KILLED me.
I have always been amazed by how a fundamentally good person with flaws, like Diane, can provoke such hatred in people, than a fundamentally bad person with a few redeeming qualities like Bojack. It is the same everywhere, in all genres of fiction. Severus Snape, a fundamentally horrible person who did one good thing, is kept on a pedestal whereas James Potter, a fundamentally good person who had moments of bad behavior, is hated by majority of the community. Makes me question human psyche.
Yeah, and he straight up called Diane a bad person.
Diane was always a mirror to Bojack- I cant have been the only one to see that. And can’t have been the only one to see that when she was trying to “fix” others it was almost a projection while simultaneously putting her issues on the back burner.
I feel like people who sincerely hate her are displacing frustration with her/within their own selves as hatred much like she warps frustration with her own self as self hatred. And I think people who sincerely love her recognize that they have that side to themselves too.
As an Asian that lived in US for more most of my life since 9 years old, I loved seeing Diane on Bojack. She was a very honest portrayal of a lot of introverted, hardworking young asian americans that seemingly has everything together. The inner flaws, anxiety, depression, self-doubt are all there spiraling into chaos beneath the seemingly calm demeanor for many of us, just like Diane.
all this talk about relatability. i always liked diane but not because i related to her, but because i can emphatize with her. where's all the talk about writing emphathetic characters?? i just think the term "relatability" kind of overshadows "empathetic" a lot and it's kind of becoming a pet peeve of mine personally. hardly anyone mentions this, and i think every time relatability is mentioned emphathety should also be mentioned. would've been nice if you mentioned it as well in this video. a lot of what you said could also be applied to an empathetic character so i wish there was more acknowledgement given to both.
edit: i don't mean to be too mean with my comment, i just think it's important to address and acknowledge well written characters that make you FEEL for them and understand them without having to related to them directly.
also, i just wanted to say that the 20 minutes i spent listening to this video was not at all a waste. your videos are super insightful and i love to hear what and how you think and analyze media. thanks for sharing your thoughts.
edit 2: thank you for the responses ive gotten to this comment! it's nice 2 know your thoughts
I think there is some overlap between relatability and empathy in characters. In that you become emotionally invested in a character or sympathise with their plight.
I also think there is an important distinction between the two. Which talks about why you become invested.
Relatability often also refers to being able to identify with a character. Maybe they reflect something about you personally. Or represent something you value dearly. There's something about them that can be likened to you. And so your attachment and eventual investment in the character is bourne from that.
Empathy means being able to connect with, understand or sympathize with a character despite not having much to relate with. You may never have shared life experiences nor ever walked in their shoes. There's nothing about that character that resembles you. But empathy is of course, being able to understand that character, or at least their perspective, in spite of all that.
And empathy is always harder. It's harder to write a character that requires the audience to practice empathy or at least, harder to get the audience to care and be invested in said character. Its easier to get people to root for a character they can already relate to. Not a lot of people are able to practice empathy.
totally agree there should be definitely more empathetic characters, this obsession with relatability has kinda something narcissistic to it not?
@@vivvy_0 its definitely narcissistic when it makes you write a title like "FIXING diane (because I couldn't relate to her)"
Amari Desu this is exactly what i thought tbh
I hate this obsession with a character's must look like me so I can relate to it, one of the reasons I moved to watching more Anime than western media in general its because they for the most part try to relate to the audience in almost every aspect of a character except its appearance.
You know? I HATED Diane for a very long time. But then I realized it was because I related so much. I don’t know why I hated her because of it.
Because you hate yourself? And saw yourself in her
This is the part of relatability that can backfire. Where we see the parts about ourself that we dislike the most reflected, and therefore can't stand someone for embodying our flaws. Especially if we're not ready to face those flaws, or don't think we can fix them but the character manages to.
(There are some things we can't change about ourself-- only learn to anticipate, circumvent, and deal with.)
Because people want to relate to Bojack more. He's the star of the show, gets all the sympathy, has the more tragic moment, and a lot of the other characters lives revolve around his. Bojack has "good damage" and people want clear reasons to explain why they are the way they are like Bojack does. Diane has a huge lack of purpose in her life, and perhaps less glamourous problems than Bojack, so people ignore them more and put it down to her being whiny, even when people shuld be able to understand where she's coming from. I'll never understand why people still crap on her for MRPB's surprise room, when she has said throughout the series she hates big gestures and surprises. PB doesn't exactly get Diane, and that was obvious throughout their relationship
Elizabeth Gatchell Absolutely same
I don’t know if it’s just me, but I thought Diane’s writing was always relatable. There was context for her actions, but they were a bit more subtle. The “I’m not good at parties, I never know what to do with my hands,” comes to mind. That person who invited her to a party because he confused her with ‘cool, fun Diane.” The bit you see of her family in Boston before season 6. Her seeming out of place at Girl Croosh reeks of someone that grew up with a “not like other girls” attitude. Maybe that was more apparent to me because it’s things I relate to, but still.
I mean I'm only at 1:37 but I'm not an actor and I related to some of the stuff Bojack went through. I'm not an agent and I related to PC. I feel like it's kind of a consistent theme that every characters career didnt really matter. It's the people behind the career and those people can be anyone. It's why the show was as great it as it was. Because it wasnt a show about an actor it was a show about a person
I think it was just that if you happened to have a similar career as them, you would feel more connected to them and think they were more relatable.
What the show does really well is portray all the characters as very human, so in general, even if your like is nothing like theirs, you can still relate to them, just based of seeing how they act and think and talk.
That’s so weird. I’ve always felt the opposite way. I’ve related to Diane since the very beginning of the show. 1. She’s a writer. 2. She acts as a sort of counselor or confidant to the other characters in the show. 3. She wants people to hear what she has to say, especially if she’s fighting for something she believes in. 4. She holds herself to too high of a standard, and that worsens her depression.
The last season felt especially relatable to me. Especially the scene where she sits down to write, and the day has passed without her noticing or even having written anything!
I personally believe that its not the experiences or the opportunities given to a character that makes them relatable, its how they react and how the process that change which makes them relatable. Which is exactly why I found Diane to be relatable all throughout the show. I dont need to be a married to a hollywood star in order to realize the struggles of being in a relationship. I dont need to go to cordovia to understand how shitty it makes you feel to know you’re not doing the best you could be. Diane is precisely what makes Bojack Horseman a different show. It doesn’t present a character that always makes the right decision or is consistently functional, it shows us a realistic portrayal of a woman struggling to find her place in this world whilst dealing with her internal issues. Every character is written to be relatable for a certain demographic. And I see myself, my flaws and my ways of thinking in Diane yet I can still appreciate characters like Todd or Mr peanutbutter who I do not find relatable at all. You shouldnt feel obligated to see yourself in every character to appreciate good writing and other people’s stories.
exactly!!
Diane is such a good portrayal of depression in women. I found her relatable from the beginning. I enjoyed watching her put down her self imposed burdens and choose to set a hard boundary with Bojack.
I take issue with the idea that Diane was less relatable because she was well-known in her field and around celebrities. That was never a criticism for other characters. I haven't seen: "Todd isn't relatable because he's a random guy who roomed with a celeb after crashing his party, became the business partner of another celeb and: made a Disney park, escaped prison, joined an improv cult, formed a clown dentist group, etc." That's all great, but ridiculous. More ridiculous then Diane knowing celebrities as a writer in Hollywoo. People didn't complain that we didn't have enough context for why Todd was alienated from his family and whacky like his mom until Season 5-6. Because Todd was the comic relief (with depth, Todd is great), so it was easy to like him. As the video says, much of Diane's life before S6 was about being the voice of reason to Mr. PB's self-indulgent escapades, Bojack's destructive habits, even PC's Hollywoo schemes. She'd fail, feel like a failure, and then have her own slump where she destructive. And every time she tried being her own better person she would get pulled back in. Even in Cordovia, her celebrity idol turned out to be an asshole.
Then Diane left LA. She stopped constantly trying to get Mr. PB or Bojack to be better people, or taking stands against Hollywoo(d) issues, so she didn't seem like an overbearing perfectionist. That means she stopped seeming like a hypocrite when she had her own depression. The only time she seriously engaged with Bojack's issues was when Bojack's past with Sarah Lynn was revealed, when Bojack was obviously wrong and other characters like Todd were just as critical of him, finally. Diane got a boyfriend who understood her and was a good guy who didn't need her to clean up his messes, and she finally got encouraged to be happy for herself. Magically, she was more relatable! The season she stopped being a buzzkill to Bojack or Mr. PB's drama, suddenly she was relatable.
Diane had her serious flaws, but I don't think Diane was "less relatable" because she had an extraordinary life. On the contrary, I think Diane was too reminiscent of the audience themselves, and people didn't like that. A person in her 30s struggling in her unglamorous job, failing to meet her own expectations, challenging powerful people (men), whose relationships were imperfect. She wasn't upbeat like Mr. PB, she didn't fix everyone's problems like PC, she wasn't goofy like Todd, and she wasn't the main sardonic dysfunction of Bojack. She wasn't famous, funny, or always landing on her feet. Diane was the straightforward cynical voice of reason. And that wasn't FUN, so some people decided she was boring, or mean, or unrelatable, or somehow worse than Bojack.
this sums it up perfectly.
I personally found Diane to be the character I MOST relate to for the entire run of the show. Holding yourself to impossible standards is something that literally every woman can relate to. Maybe you don’t relate to her because you’re a man? 🤔
I related more with her than bojack but i liked PC more even though i don't relate to her at all
Leanne that’s not just a woman thing. Just a perfectionist mindset. Everyone who has ambition will likely suffer from high standards due to the knowledge of life being limited. Ambition and anxiety often can go hand in hand
@@sena167 same here!! PC is my favorite fictional character of all times, but Diane was definately the most relatable part of the show for me
That was my thought, too.
I think people just want to relate to the other "more damaged" characters more. Most of Diane's problems are not specific to her being female.
I relate to Diane greatly from start to finish, I always felt the same way she felt and people not liking her really need to realize you aren't going to relate to everybody and that should be ok
I don't want perfect characters, I want characters with flaws or Damage
People literally just need to leave her character alone, that's a point in a lot of women's lives that we have went through or are going though. She's also suffering from depression, but /she's/ not relatable enough for /men/ but people simp so hard for Rick and Morty.
My favorite moment with Diane is when she's struggling with her memoirs and thinks about the bully she had in high school. The bully says that she probably has her own sad relatable story as to why she is mean and I love that. Diane is incapable of seeing things 2 dimensionally, everything has depth and layers to her, and when she goes on antidepressants and lives with Guy it's part of her just trying to live life and be happy. The darkness and depth that defined her life are gone, and you can tell that she feels like she's lost part of her identity but she knows that she's better off being happy It can be so hard to get over depression because it makes you so distant from everything, and it becomes your identity, and you don't want to let go of it because you don't want to lose your identity, but Diane does and she's better for it
I think that's a really interesting take on her character because I came away feeling the opposite about her. I found her very relatable through most of the time. Sure, her life is unusual, but her feelings about, and actions within it, are incredibly mundane. She's constantly looking for something she doesn't quite understand. The mundane setting she finds herself at the end just showed once more that this unhappiness came from within her, and because I understand this feeling of nothing ever sitting quite right so well, I could relate to her despite, and often even because of her unusual position. I never considered that the exact things that only served to emphasize her character for me, would make her unrelatable to other people. The last season felt like a natural conclusion, although at first it felt very foreign to me. She was looking for that big thing that would make her complete, but instead she found healing in normalcy and a slow, but steady process.
It honestly never occurred to me that people didn’t relate to Diane. I don’t think I’ve ever come across a character I related to more intensely. Something about her character just made me feel incredibly seen.
Same
This is genuinely one of those situations (as many have stated in the comments) where you don't relate to the character because the character isn't for you. Like it's okay to not relate to a character with an inherently feminine experience/plot line when you're not a woman. Most woman have spent their whole lives practicing the "this isn't for me but I can tell it's good writing." where as so many men are just starting to experience well written female stories so I understand there's a learning curve. Like you saw her as having an extraordinary life rather than as a woman who's semi-successful in a career she feels is unfulfilling while also never getting the credit for her hard work. Her being the "voice of reason" ways on her, she's constantly being asked to be Bojack's conscience and do his emotional labor. Her need and desires are constantly overshadowed or pushed to the side in order for her to be that voice of reason. Even her career goal--the need she has to make a positive impact on the world with her writing--is related to the expectation that she has had placed on her to be Good(tm). So many women get stuck in this motherly role to everyone (but like specifically the men in their lives) where they need to act as a pillar. For Diana, who has modern and feminist ideals, that looks different from how it's often (when at all) portrayed in the media. There's this compromise that a lot of working women make that goes something like "I know I'm not going to get the recognition my male peers get but knowing it's successful or (more importantly) knowing I'm doing good is enough." The catharsis in S6 isn't that she's become more normal or relatable, it's that she's finally letting herself do things that make her happy rather than needing the things she's going to mean something outside of herself. Up until this point she's never allowed introspection because she too busy doing it for other people. It hurts me a little to see you get so close to understanding and then totally miss the mark. Like, ungrateful? What does she have to be grateful for? Writing something for Bojack to put his name? Being forgotten in her own marriage? She a perfectionist because the world tells women that they need to everything perfectly to matter but she isn't PC and she doesn't want to be.
See, it's weird, I've always found
Diane relatable because I share a lot of flaws with her. Even my last relationship was similar to hers with Mr Peanutbutter (though much less long) and ended in a similar way. She got, in a way, less relatable to me in Season 6 because I'm just not at that stage yet where I'm getting my shit together, but she does serves as a possible positive outlook on my future which is also nice.
Anyway, I'd recommend Johnny2Cellos as a another great Bojack creator. Peace
Early Diane was definitely relatable and critical to the story. She was the normal grounded person who was often a moral compass (or at least insight, even if annoyingly so) in the midst of out-of-touch stars who were living lives in the clouds. She’s kind of like the Jim or the Oscar from the Office in that way - not terribly interesting but a really important narrative device up against wilder more unpredictable characters like Bojack and much of Hollywoo. Diane often was the person trying to do the right thing and take the high road, but it being snuffed out by shenanigans, indifference, and surreal absurdity. Most of us can’t relate to having celebrity friends, but seeking “good” and “justice” and meaning in an environment that’s faking it is fairly universal enough (at least in the West) to be relatable. (At least I think so, it truly is subjective). I always felt like Diane was just a less damaged version of Bojack - trying to find happiness but for her it mostly meant by trying to be a good person (which Bojack explored at some points). Great analysis though!
Her and Bojack are my favorite characters because I relate to them both
Bojack can't really have a stable relationship because of his relationship with his mother (my mom was like Bojacks in many ways) and Diane I see myself in her in a way that I want to do something that helps others but I just don't find anything in my life currently that makes me happy I have super close friends and an amazing girlfriend but I just can't trust anyone or put my faith in my own relationships
I definitely felt like they initially had a close amount of damage, but Diane decided to react, while Bojack always made poor decisions and drowned in self pity
Even as a guy, i'm sure people relate to diane. No one is perfect, especially in this series. Every character had their faults, just like we all do. Thumbs down this video.
Horse Renoir good for you for being more open minded!
I think a lot of guys find her annoying for being a nagy unsatisfied feminist wife. That’s it... it says more about them.
I wasn’t that invested in Diane, but it did make me disappointed hearing a lot of my go to youtubers discussing this character with sexist undertones.
@@agnnnnnnn I'm a 20 year old guy and was pretty indifferent about diane for most of the show. But I never disliked her character, and season 6 opened my eyes to that. It made her easily one of the most grounded and relatable characters in the show. Obviously she looks nothing like me nor have I struggled with similar things. But she can be emphasized with very easily towards the end of the show.
Eric Hawkins Next your going to teach us that not every man is a bad guy, right ? The only think you all can say about Diane is that she is being hypocritical and can’t even reach her one standard. And then ? It was STATED in the show that Diane biggest flaw was precisely that she is holding others AND herself to unreachable standards. Her being hypocritical and not succeeding in that are parts of her problem, she isn’t perfect. However her points still stands and she is actually a good representation of what women go through especially women with immigrates parents. It’s funny how most men can all find thousands of excuses about Bojack being Bojack but as soon as we talk about a convince female feminist that call out others on their bullshit you suddenly holds her to very higher standards than her male counterparts and only say ONE thing about her to justify your attitude. «wow, like absolutely every character of the show Diane has some flaws that she tries to work through, she is the worst». There is a reason why most women not only understand but like and relate to Diane while most men call her irritating or ungrateful amongst many others things. It’s not just about men and women not sharing the same lives and not being treated the same by society, it’s also men (and women) subconsciously judging women harder. So yes, internalized misogyny has a big impact on how the fandom react to the different characters, pretending that it’s not just prove further that you probably don’t care about the whole problem or can stand the subject to be adresse. Which is again, probably why you REALLY can’t stand Diane.
Eric Hawkins Did you try to dismiss my point by saying the exact same thing as me in your first paragraph ? For real ? I just said that Diane being hypocritical doesn’t explain why people consider her to be an irredeemable character and judge her way more harshly than Bojack and you tell me that... a character possessing a flaw doesn’t make it unlikable. YET you literally are telling me that you hate Diane because she possess two flaws that can’t even begin to compete with Mr. PeanutButter or Bojack’s own problems. So you just proved my whole first point but you rather say the same thing as me, taking a condescending tone while pretending to teach me something than accept that I am right or that we simply agree on this topic ? Anyway, moving on.
You’re not even reading me, you’re just picking words out of context to suit yourself and your already made up opinion. «How is that men’s fault» like how does one even ask that when it has literally nothing do with what was actually written ? You keep generalizing and overreacting to a pretty much easy thing to understand : we all have internalized misogyny, both men and women *like I already stated two times already*. Women being holds up to higher standards by their peers and even more by men is nothing unusual, it’s something that is been settle for ages now. If you aren’t aware of it you are just born yesterday or you just want to pretend that it doesn’t exist, that’s it. Again, you also have to add that Diane is a realistic description of what a WOMAN goes through as proven by the numerous comments made by women on Diane’s character. Adding to that, as opposed to all the females presents on the show Diane is a convince feminist that constantly calls out people on their bullshit. Key words : as opposed to all the others females on the show. Based on these three FACTS we can understand why Diane doesn’t appeal to the majority of the male fanbase : they can’t relate to her troubles, her story and our society made it so that we tend to be way less sympathetic to woman (in movies and series). Also men are generally less sensitive towards feminism and women’s issues (the simple fact that you are currently playing dumb and try to dismiss the whole gender issue/ is clueless about it here proves it by itself) The more you insist that it doesn’t exist the more it proves that you personally have a real problem with the topic and further more prove my whole point which is : Diane gender does have an impact on the way the audience judge her overall. Like I just said, you purely dislike Diane for two of her flaws that aren’t even that big and that she does adresse at some point in the show. You are subconsciously (key word : subconsciously) judging her more harder because she is a woman, because she is more relatable from a women’s perspective and that she is a mirror to Bojack and a voice of reason. Mr. Peanutbetter is more like than Diane despite being a way less important and heavily flawed character simply because most guys of this fandom thinks this is unacceptable that a spouse won’t be happy that her husband don’t listen to her feelings and openly supports everything that she stands against for the sake of it. So yeah, when you see that someone like Mr. PB can have the most insane excuses about his behavior but Diane is constantly hated for literally two flaws of her (it also show how much did you truly TRY to think about the character in the first place to be only able to repeat the same two things about it) and read the comments made about it it’s quite logical. That’s how it is, if you want to deny it to sleep better at night I really couldn’t care less it just irritating me how you go as far as to go to a comment section and acting like you are stupid. Just stop with the «BuT nObOdY eXpLiCiTlY sAiD iT sO-». Yeah, everything isn’t subtle in life, like Diane’s character.
Eric Hawkins I already answered everything and point out that internalized misogyny was PART of it (even tho it’s possible that people just don’t like a character because they just don’t like it, which I forgot to add because even if it seems pretty evident you seems to be the kind of person that need everything to be openly spill out for them in order to not constantly just imagine what the other is saying). Learn to read properly.
I am tired, have a great night, day, noon whatever time it is in your country !
Diane always, always, was the character that I identified the most. I think the point is precisely that the character is written to resonate with women, all the difficulties and dilemmas that she goes through directly communicate with women. And yes, she "banned" the use of weapons in California, for example, but this is due to the fact that "they hate women more than they like weapons". And it is this bitter taste that women experience, almost every day of their lives.
Holy crap, This. Right. Here!
I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with your entire analysis here.
You say yourself that different people will relate to different characters. Well, I hate BoJack. I don't relate with him at all. I have never struggled with addiction, or fame. I think he's a whiny narcissist who wants to be a good person without putting in the effort.
On the other hand, I loved Diane. I found her extremely relatable. I struggle with perfectionism, high moral standards, a belief that the world should be better than it is, and being misunderstood by the people close to me. I think she's intensely relatable and very tragic, because her biggest flaw is that she desperately wants to make a difference: everything she does has to have a higher purpose, a high importance, and must change the world - but that's terrible for her mental health because she isn't able to actually do that. She needs to learn that it's okay for her actions to not 'matter'.
Being a writer isn't what makes her relatable, similarly to how being an actor doesn't make BoJack relatable. Struggles with alcohol aren't universal, struggles with perfectionism aren't either. That doesn't mean that either character is not relatable enough - just not relatable to some people.
I interpreted both characters very differently to you, because I'm very different to you. Neither of our experiences are universal. Diane and BoJack are relatable to different audiences, and that's okay.
you voiced exactly what i was thinking while watching this! 100% agree~
Exactly! Thanks for saying this!
Precisely! This was a bit nauseating to watch as it began to feel very strongly as "this experience is unrelatable to me, ergo it is bad writing". Even at the end, it felt very much like "they made her more like the character I could relate to, which made her better written." Erm - no, Savage, it just made her more relatable to you. Put in a little more effort.
(incidentally, have unsubscribed from both channels - this was just too nauseating)
@@urbanvixensoton Yeah! I also unsubbed because of this. Using your perspective and only your perspective to 'objectively' criticise a character makes for pretty poor analysis, and indicates a pretty severe lack of empathy.
This put everything I feel about Diane into words, thank you.
I honestly don't think Diane needs, "Fixing," she was already the most realistic and one of the most relatable characters in Bojack. Her little quirks and reactions, are identical to wives. Maybe you've never dealt with her issues or known someone who has, but her character is alreadg extremely relatable and well written like nearly every man character in Bojack.
Diane is my favourite character because she was always super relatable to me. As an African born and raised in Australia, the episode in Season 2 where Diane went to Vietnam looking for some kind of connection and not finding it, really hit me hard because I always felt that way whenever I go to Zambia to visit extended family. It's a place where everyone looks like you so you want to feel like you belong, but you don't know the language or culture so you just end up feeling out of place and like an imposter. Then the Good Damage episode in the final season had me in tears because of how much I identified with her feelings. Throughout the show's run, Diane's flaws and struggles always resonated with me, and it's great to understand why that is. Thanks for the video!
Diane has always been a mirror to Bojack.
yeah it's so weird that some people only noticed now
@@valeriarossini543 I think it's cause only now it's shoved in our faces, to look really similar
I've always found Diane to be the MOST relatable character due to the exact reason you are pointing out - very similar flaws. Why I had this relatability from the beginning is also due to the exact reason you point out - most people (especially men) didn't relate to her, she's in a high status place, with a high status man and has experiences that are wildly outside what most people BUT still feels deeply unhappy and lonely. So all of the righteous indignation coming out in "strange" ways all made sense to me, but probably not to your average person. She experienced deep fundamental wounds by a parent as a child and is trying to meet those needs she never got when she was a kid - validation, acceptance, love, but she doesn't know how. As a person who also experienced a lot of that and does things most other people struggle to relate to, seeing her on screen made me feel validated and gave me a bit of a window into that gap I feel between myself and most everyone else. And I really liked the changed she went through (some of which may have pretty directly paralleled my own personal decisions). It gave me hope, to see her come down to Earth a bit and experience genuine happiness and intimacy. Love your videos, glad you made this one.
I related to Diane the most throughout the entirety of the show. I felt like I WAS her.
I totally relate to Diane?? I grew up bookish, tomboyish and disliked, and then my insecurities lead to drug abuse, sexual self indulgence and poor decision making as a teenager. Insecurity leads to cheating and all sorts of shit like that. There was never a point at all where I didn’t relate to her, and I don’t think you have to like a character to relate to them. Then again, you’re a man, she isn’t for you.
uhhh i literally always found diane relatable. idk if im alone in this, but i've never hated her at all. I've understood that she is deeply flawed and a sort of reflection of bojack, but i've also sort of always sensed the reason why. and season 6 didn't make diane a reflection, she always had been the entire time. i love diane, and i always have.
also just something i noticed: bojack's self-hatred illustrations are bright, colorful, and cartoonish because of his obsession with television. diane is shaped around writing, so her's is pen and scribbles and drawing.
I personally loved Diane because I felt she was an interesting take on the typical millennial and always stood for what she wanted most of the time. She did some stuff I hated, but I felt it helped with her internal struggles and the twist of her actually being underweight for most of the show.
Yeah, I agree. She does a lot right, and a lot wrong (imo, getting guns banned. I dont think that would go over as well as it did in the show in real life) but your right; it was her tenacity and willingness to get things done that made me like her. Her ability to grow and change cemented that despite her occasionally awefu dicisions I think she makes.
@@psychoactivesorcerer7285 she didnt actually intend for her decision to get a gun to get them banned? Like she was finally finding a reason to like guns and have some power and as a joke on society everyone suddenly wanted to ban guns after females felt empowered by guns. The only people that should hate diane for that are people who were sexist enough to only react when a women felt connection with guns
@@psychoactivesorcerer7285 yeah like the other commenter said, the joke was that getting guns banned wouldn't work like that in real life and diane didnt want that lol
@@amaridesu1141 Oh, I see. Well I must have missunderstood. I may have been high and misremembered or something wouldnt be the first time. Thanks for setting me straight and not being an asshole about it.
When was she ever underweight?
Diane actually inspired me to go on antidepressants again and in a way I'm thankful. I really see myself in Diane and I guess seeing how her life became slightly more bearable by going on them really helped to comfort my worries about taking medication again.
Diane was always super relatable to me, it's so weird to find out how many people find her unrelatable
my wife's an self loathing outspoken feminist vietnamese woman, and i'm an alcoholic depressed horse, so she found diane extremely relateable since the beginning
I'm seeing all these comments and I genuinely think it just comes down to women found Diane relatable and men just didn't until her whole arc was fulfilled. Even as a man something I really liked about Bojack's female characters was that they were undeniably WOMEN. They have storyarcs that sometimes only women can find themself relating too. Princess Carolyn was the same way. A lot of the people that spoke publically about Bojack Hosreman were men (the type of men during the beginning of the shows run that never fully went away is a different problem for another day) and this lead to it seeming like Diane wasn't liked when in reality it was a bunch of guys all thinking they get the show but couldn't understand the basics of seeing something from either where the writers were coming from (they are obviously even more left-leaning than most of Hollywood and this affects every part of the show) or where...women are coming from. Men don't get it and hopefully with Diane being "redeemed" to them they can begin to understand some struggles women have that are either more prevalent to them or specific to them.
thank you!
you put my thoughts into words.
I always found curious how women are more open to understand male characters than men open to understand female characters, it happens in a lot of communities I'm in.
@@Cloverfr because female socialization contains traits of male socialization, but male socialization does not do the same.
Isn’t shady doorags the guy who said he didn’t like tuca and bertie because the men who were extremely inappropriate in the workplace didn’t get to be good guys?
Not exactly. I think he just wanted it to be more like Bojack in the sense that the harassers were given further depth and reasoning for their actions, so they were more sympathetic. But the idea of Tuca and Bertie is that it's a world through a woman's eyes and how harassment makes a woman feel, not how someone who abuses their power in the workplace should be sympathized with, which is why the video is so disliked.
I wouldn't be surprised
He called diane a hypocrite for recognizing that she wasn't happy with a man who constantly refused to listen to her and said that she actually doesn't want to be happy
gony paz he kinda has a hating women thing going on
I found her relatable from day one (not because our backgrounds were similar at all, they are very different. It was her worldview and values mostly). I felt that she was so much like me, that season 6 was a heavy blow to me and my choices in life. The "flip the nothing" part almost made me cry and her getting married shocked me hard. I was very surprised when I knew she was hated. I never saw her as a hypocrite at all and she made absolute sense to me; even though I´m not that keen on judging others, her values and her doubts and struggles on feminism, for example, and her self-awareness on those struggles, were my own. Pretty interesting video tho.
I don‘t really think Diane is a hypocrite.
True.
Yeah, I don’t believe that failing to live up to your own expectations is synonymous with being a hypocrite.
I have to admit, I identified so deeply with Diane, found her so relatable, that I felt I from around the third season that I knew what her issues were bc I’d faced them, myself. And I realised how lucky I was to figure them out in my 20s as opposed to wasting so much of my life having to face my own effectively inability to just be happy, to constantly look at the negative in hopes that sooner or later I’d find the positive within it. Her rant about damage was probably the moment that hit me the hardest bc I’d never seen it put so perfectly before; why suffer all this pain if that pain was never going to go anywhere better? It was devastating to hear. Honestly brought so much of it back to surface in a way that I’m still kind of recovering from? It’s a hard thing to really swallow.
Good analysis, I think Diane's physical change in weight defiantly added to here relatability. I love how the writers showed her weight change but didnt show it change her or the relationships with those around her, it was kinda of a non factor. I liked that alot, but I cant put my finger on why.
I don't know if this is the reason you liked that but I feel like it normalised obesity in a positive way. I mean, some shows try to add representation in their characters but end up making it stand up like it's a big deal, but in this case it wasn't. Diane didn't want to gain weight at the beginning, which I find pretty realistic, but the others characters didn't really think anything about it. They didn't mind it, because it is something normal. I don't know if this applies to you, but I really loved that.
and sorry if I misspelled something, English isn't my first language
because it normalizes something that happens all the time in real life, but is treated shamefully, usually because society has a lot of standards (esp related to beauty and the body image).
i think one of BJHM's greatest strengths is their normalization of everything. wlw couple getting married? todd is asexual? depression? they don't toot their own horns whenever these mature and relevant topics come up. they just treat it with the same respect and sincerity like every other issue they handle on the show. because it's realistic. because it's normal. because it happens in real life. i think that's great. there's no big patting themselves on the back or "hey look we're progressive". they just, DO it. and i think that adds a lot to the genuineness of the show.
Its something that Bojack Horseman is very good at. The writers are excellent at weaving things naturally into the story (most of the time anyways).
Take for example Herb being gay. How do we find out he's gay? He tries to kiss Bojack when he reveals to Bojack that his pitch for "Horsin Around" got green-lit. Herb being gay isn't just for the sake of diversity. Its a crucial plot-point since later that episode, news gets out that Herb was gay & it put the show's entire network in jeopardy.
An even better example is Angela Diaz. It's never made explicit at any point in the show that she's gay. In S1, its only mentioned by Bojack that Angela made pantsuits a thing, but that's a largely harmless tidbit. Later in S6, there are stronger hints and clues but no outright explicit mentions of her sexuality. It may never have needed to be anyway, because her sexuality really only serves to further emphasize Angela's character as a cold ruthless business woman that wouldn't even cut Herb some slack as a fellow gay.
All this really is good writing and good story-telling techniques. Being able to relay information to the audience without needing to beat them over the head and spell everything out for them. Its why raw exposition dumps are heavily frowned upon. Its the laziest form of writing and also shows a lack of faith in the audience to be follow on their own.
@@MrOzzification ohhh i didnt even catch the theory that angela is gay. what are the hints? :00
@@sationalsen Normalizing obesity is never positive, lol.
As someone who has been medicated against anxiety and chronic depression since 14 the moment she asked "am i going to need these for the rest of my life?" Made me both sad and happy, because that's exactly what i ask myself everytime i avoid my pills thinking im okay now, just to have a bunch of panic attacks and health problems because i need those to be a functioning human being.
However it also made me see that there are people who need the same kind of medication i do, and it made me feel less alone.
I think diane is, and will be, a character that i will always love because of that.
Im not speaking for every person with depression or mental illnes, im speaking for myself and she is the most accurate potrayal of what i go through everyday.
Diane was definitely my favorite character from S1 but I did stop relating to her up until she traveled to Vietnam.
I haven't seen a lot of people talk about that part I guess because only a few people can relate but uhhhh...
So a little about me: I'm an American. Born and bred. So are my parents and grandparents. However, my maternal family are of Mexican descent. They were born on Mexican territory but then history happened and despite not moving out of state, they became American citizens because the borders changed. "We didn't cross over the border, the border crossed over us," is a running joke in my family.
I'm half white, half Hispanic. I grew up in New Mexico with a huge Mexican population. New Mexico basically still has one foot in its Mexican roots.
Since moving to Canada, I've realized some things about my background that I've taken for granted. I'm trying to embrace my heritage while also recognizing my privilege. And it's weird and awkward because I always feel like a tourist. Despite it being my background I feel like a weeaboo for Mexican culture, awkwardly trying to learn Spanish the best I can despite my family all speaking English. Coco was a weird movie for me because all the characters looked like my family but the setting was unfamiliar and new to me.
This is a long winded way of saying I have an identity crisis. Yeah I'm an American but my family doesn't look like your typical American family.
But then Diane went to Vietnam. And seeing her awkwardly struggle with the culture and language... I could feel that in my bones. It was the first time in a few seasons that I felt a connection to Diane. For the first time in several seasons that I could point at her and go "oh my god it's me."
And I felt like the writers had taken a good look at her character and reworked her to become a more active member of the cast again.
It was such a huge relief for me, even though our backgrounds are completely different.
Seeing her in the last season was so satisfying to me. It was a reminder that just because you find a good relationship doesn't mean your depression magically goes away. (Also shout out to Guy for being a genuinely awesome and supportive partner.)
I was so scared Diane was going to be pushed away but they really turned that around and I am so happy for it. I'm so happy I can say that yes, I related to Diane again.
I really gotta get better at seeing parallels -- Diane's arc is really obviously mirroring Bojack's, and i just figured i was super invested into it because I liked the character. Phenomenal work as always man.
Sorry did people not realise this about diane before season 6? Do you remember episodes like Out to Sea and The dog days are over? Diane has been intensely relatable, and inextricably written as a mirror of bojack, from the beginning of the show. This isn't some vast change in the writing of the show it's just people actually paying attention rather than making some knee-jerk reaction to her character.
I remember watching that scene when Diane says "I'm depressed but I'm not like DEPRESSED DEPRESSED" and relating to that so much because like her I viewed my depression as less meaningful than other people who have/struggle with depression.
I related to Diane too much, it was overwhelming to see a character as depressed and fed up as I am, someone who wants to change the world but can't, who wants to believe that there is a reason for things when there really isn't. I adore her so much because I see so much of myself in her.
I always loved Diane. Yeah, she’s annoying. So am I. I relate so hard to feeling personally responsible for fixing the world and all its injustices and feeling so defeated when I can’t. For some of us, that is super relatable.
I relate to her primarily by being a woman, and secondarily by having depression. A lot of what many people view as weakness, hypocrisy, or a choice to be unhappy can be inevitable when you don't have the support you need. People come down on her hard for going off her antidepressants but you cannot know how easy it is to become uncomfortable with health and impervious to logic.
13:20 i don't think it made her a bad person. just flawed. she was trying so hard to see the trees and not the forest. she manages to come through this and that's growth. that's real. she's one of the realest characters on the show imo (minus all the crazy hollywood events/lifestyle but hey the show is about a washed up actor too and not many people can relate to that either)
its such a shame it was cancelled, i couldnt help but feel like it could've been perfect if it had one season before this one to flesh this out more
It wasn’t canceled, it had a proper ending.