I agree! Makes 500hp, runs 12s at 113mph😂😂😂. Dyno is a tuning tool. Had a bloke say aww low numbers to my ls1 at 380rwhp but it run 11.69 116mph. His made 500hp and run 12.6s at 113mph 😂😂.
Interesting video. I think most people seem to only pay attention to power (RWKW / RWHP) still, ignoring torque figures. Im most intersted in torque myself. However, I try not to compare dyno sheets between shops, too many variables, and dyno results are too easily distorted as you speak about. The shop i use has a notoriously low reading dyno in comparison to other shops, so online everyone will tell you its weak sauce, but the strip showed it not to be the case :)
Great video! Recently new to owning a dyno, I have always done the ratio to wheel speed method. Converter slip never crossed my mind! This is now changing how I'm going to go about it! (Before people jump through my throat I use the rpm tracking so when analysing the dyno logs I can correlate it to the ecu datalog to make adjustments, but for future dyno sheets I will change that so there is a correct torque readout!)
Awesome explanation! Had mine years ago on a mainline dyno ( TASKMASTER ) ignition clamp all in place , And I’m definitely happy with what numbers & torque it produced ! But in saying that yet to get track times
Hah, i've got a friend who keeps shoving a LS/VZ Commo dyno sheet in my face, who just spent a heap of money on the full cam package with about 20 less kw than my standard engine side slinger supercharged falcon. I'm not one to get into disputed over dyno sheets cause, literally as you say, they can be fudged. Dyno queens don't interest me, i just leave it down to the strip times or actual races, but i will say everything he keeps carrying on with only has km/h vs hp graphs. Zero RPM readings, barely legible torque readings (small scales on torque readings), zero real info only that it "made" just shy of 300kw at 220km/h. I just can't comprehend what its supposed to mean And this videos explained it a little bit better, i think he got one of those derived calculated sheets (tbh the whole cam/tune package he got was absurdly cheap compared too what i know it should cost so its not surprising). Kinda feel bad for him with how much was spent on it when it might not be putting out what the paper sez its putting out
100% on the strip being the real guage of hp. I ask for drag times and mph from overseas high hp numbers and get smart comments about gear ratios etc on why they don't go
Non of these numbers mean much to me but i guess your dyno only gives you horsepower or watts but really engines make torque and horsepower is calculated
I remember being at dyno watching my mates car get tuned and his 4.5 diff ratio gave him 1100 torque.. they weren't looking for numbers so hadnt connected up any of the calibration stuff it was only fuel afr and ignition adjusting and just went off what numbers the dyno decided to put out
I worked at a workshop where the dyno operator couldn’t even understand lambda 😂 He told the customer to change the gauge to a normal AFR reading before he’d be willing to tune it, now I can understand wanting a gauge that reads 14.7/1 as stoich because it’s what you’re comfortable with but that sent alarm bells off for me so given that experience it doesn’t surprise me this sort of thing happens and it wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of shops are doing this none the wiser and just thinking it’s not making much of a difference
Lambda is the only ratio we use, I'm amazed at how many people don't understand it and it's the most important number, It all comes down to the base mathematics everyone seems to complicate things.
You need to obd scan the rpm to get an accurate result, I've seen 500rpm lower than actual which drastically changes the total power from the torque to engine speed ratio
When it comes to Dynos Americas different. I look at honda Type Rs FL5 being tuned with 280 kw at FW with 93 tune and the ones in AU 230KW at the wheels on 98 tune. Either it’s way too conservative tune with full bolt ons or it’s something else. 230-40 is crap when the Puerto Ricans are pushing 640+ HP at the wheels on stock internals. 🤔
With high rpm you will make good Tourque if it’s a turbocharged straight six like a 2jz with 30 psi plus getting shoved into it Eg my dragster does a 1.14sec 60 ft that’s equivalent to 0-100kph in 1 sec and 3.5g That’s letting the trans brake go at 5500rpm and the thing revs to 9200rpm
This video isn't really focused on the fudging side of things, it's more targeted and focusing on why people get crazy torque numbers, no disrespect to Dyno operators but more of an educational video.
It’s a lot easier if you think about power, torque and rotational speed in standard (SI) units. These are watts, nm and radians/second. Using these units, power = torque x rotational speed. So the dyno works by measuring torque at the wheel (or hub if hub dyno). It also knows the speed the dyno is rotating. Multiplying these together gives the power at the dyno. Now, to get engine torque, you have to divide the dyno power by the engine speed. The engine torque is not the same as dyno torque as the engine torque is multiplied by the transmission, diff and tyres. However, this engine torque number is not correct because there is drivetrain loss due to friction in the drivetrain.
The thing I appreciate the most about this response to a problem is that you have not defined it as conspiracy. Generally, stuff like this always stems from ignorance. I feel like this is a good response because you have recognised that it is ignorance (in general) with less people doing it on purpose to deceive.
Dynos were never meant to give real world power / torque numbers. They are a tuning tool - you can only compare before and after numbers on the same day to measure changes to the vehicle.
This actually makes a lot of sense since I had a few dyno runs and noticed my ssv with l98 make 470hp and 540nm does that sound legit cause now I’m worried I got stitched with dodgy tuners 😅swear it made more nm almost stovk with a baby cam then going to a vcm 883 😵💫 I like this guy he sounds like someone I’d be happy to take my car too 💯
You will probably find that your smaller cam did actual make more torque than the bigger cam as that is something I would expect to see, more horsepower you make in the higher RPM range the lower the torque. Bigger does not necessarily mean it's going to be better, most people question why we recommend the smaller cams as opposed to the bigger cams and this is the reason
@@IndependentMotorsportsdefinitely correct there I was told the cam I chose was too big should have went a crow cam and not a vcm not the best cams going especially only making 5hp more with the e85 not a great combo 😑good Info for the next time round
@@Tattooharlz nothing wrong with the VCM range, its all about the correct combination. Every time a car turns up at our workshop with the boot full of parts that the customer has hand selected always turns into a disaster build. This is why we like to select All the parts so the combination works.
Correct me if I'm wrong but a dyno measures torque and horsepower is calculated based on torque at a certain rpm. The dyno doesn't measure horsepower and then calculate torque based off that.
Hub or roller dyno's measure torque a the hubs/wheels with load cell and inertia. remember it gets multiplied by the gear ratios of your gearbox, diff, tyres, The dyno uses this measured torque and the rpm of the dyno (not engine) to calculate the power at wheels / hubs. To get the torque as explained on this video, the power numbers need to be calculated by engine rpm. Which at the end of the day isn't really a useful number either. As you are using wheel power and engine speed to measure torque. so the torque number is actually torque at the engine minus drive line loss. The original number measured by the dyno is actually torque at the wheels, thats hitting the pavement. Its obviously different in every gear and different again in an auto with converter. Moral of the story unless its an engine dyno. just look at the hp numbers and the torque curve not the torque numbers
To dumb it down it's a tuning tool nothing more than that, As long as the numbers keep going up and you work from your baseline you're making progress. Engine dyno is king for actual figures and MPH Is the most accurate when backwards calculating. You should always compare apples with apples to save all the confusion
Yes mate. That's correct. Engines generate mechanical torque, not power. Torque over time (RPM is time) equals indicated power. If you want more power, than the engine needs to be able to generate more torque. Don't know why he explained it the way he did. Completely backwards. But you can calculate either figure (power, torque) once you have one of them. Although breath of fresh air too finally see someone else pointing out the ludicrous torque figures people claiming. Little funny if you go back to watch old videos, how drastic cam specs have changed over the years regarding LSA. They're getting tighter. Especially after asking years ago about running a tighter LSA and basically told "na wrong" Guess he's consistently backwards.
@@serioussam6339 Its explained how a dyno works, rather than an engine. A dyno has no idea how much torque an engine makes, when you are measuring at the wheels or hubs. But it does know the torque at the wheels and the rpm at wheels. Which equals power at wheels.
All depends on your ignition setup, The Dyno gives you a configurations setup to adjust for this. Calibrate your tools so they work correctly that's the moral of the story.
Probably wouldn’t be to far off anything forced induction makes good Tourque numbers If you had two cars same engine and same peak power But one was na and one forced induction The forced induction will always accelerate faster due to the higher torque numbers And torque is what moves things not power as power is simply a calculation of torque times rpm
Agreed, i think its pretty close...maybe a touch high. My FGX has 421rwkw and 811nm but a stock blower. I think your figures are accurate not a fudge - dyno itself might be a little off but they aren't BSing you. PS My car was tuned by one of the best and most highly regarding in the country so i know mine was about as accurate as you can get.
Also remember the torque numbers shown (if calculated correct) will be engine torque minus the driveline loss. Since they are being calculated from power at wheels and engine rpm. It isn't engine torque or torque at wheels.
@@IndependentMotorsports all good! wasn't having a go or anything just adding to what you said, nice video. I get called out on the torque numbers on my channel all the time, as my dyno shows the torque numbers that the dyno sees, which are obviously way higher than what people are expecting. Its an older setup, that doesn't have any of the engine rpm math
@@IndependentMotorsports Its an old vane dyno (now mainline) running dynotorque control. A lot of the old vane dyno's here in NZ were upgraded to their control in early 2000's, mine was one of the last ones they done around 2015 ish. Pretty sure nz would be the only place you would find them
wow billet crank, Fast manifold, ported heads by Higgins, customised cam, full tunned try y headers and free flowing exhaust and free flowing cats and race fuel, engine revining to NA at 8,000 rpm, sure you can get around the 350Kw with about 600 nm of torque, its about what cam your using and crank and as they say a engine is just a air pump so the more efficient and better flowing that air pump is working the more power with the right fuel, your going to make big power compared to a stock ls1, Ls2 6lt and so on? People for get your not going to make power unless you spend a lot of money with hi end internal components and blue printing everything that moves in that engine? cheers 👌✌👍😎🦘 Also what's that old saying nothing beats big blocks right no substitute for cubic inches right? so you can have a ls platform but its stroked out to a 416 or 408 right?
Great vid makes alot sence now after seeing a ross review vid a few days ago with an ls1 stato making in the mid to 300 kw range but 1100 nm souds like a good shop to stay away from
More people need to hear/understand this!!
Great video 👌🏻
I agree! Makes 500hp, runs 12s at 113mph😂😂😂. Dyno is a tuning tool. Had a bloke say aww low numbers to my ls1 at 380rwhp but it run 11.69 116mph. His made 500hp and run 12.6s at 113mph 😂😂.
Queue the LS1 guy with 1000nm of torque in 3, 2, 1..........
Spot on. I know nothing about dynos but timeslips and knowing the weight of the vehicle and doing the math = most accurate figures.
If you’re going much over 100nm per litre naturally aspirated you are probably measuring it wrong.
Interesting video. I think most people seem to only pay attention to power (RWKW / RWHP) still, ignoring torque figures. Im most intersted in torque myself.
However, I try not to compare dyno sheets between shops, too many variables, and dyno results are too easily distorted as you speak about. The shop i use has a notoriously low reading dyno in comparison to other shops, so online everyone will tell you its weak sauce, but the strip showed it not to be the case :)
Well said Stathi.
Well explained , you’ll definitely upset all the dyno sheet owners and a few shops , track doesn’t lie
Great video!
Recently new to owning a dyno, I have always done the ratio to wheel speed method.
Converter slip never crossed my mind!
This is now changing how I'm going to go about it!
(Before people jump through my throat I use the rpm tracking so when analysing the dyno logs I can correlate it to the ecu datalog to make adjustments, but for future dyno sheets I will change that so there is a correct torque readout!)
Good on you mate We are always learning no shame in that.
did you really start with "Let's have the conversation"? when "Let's torque about it" was right there?
Very informative thank you mate good work
Run your car, not your mouth fixes all the shit talkers 😂.
Awesome explanation!
Had mine years ago on a mainline dyno ( TASKMASTER ) ignition clamp all in place , And I’m definitely happy with what numbers & torque it produced !
But in saying that yet to get track times
Hah, i've got a friend who keeps shoving a LS/VZ Commo dyno sheet in my face, who just spent a heap of money on the full cam package with about 20 less kw than my standard engine side slinger supercharged falcon. I'm not one to get into disputed over dyno sheets cause, literally as you say, they can be fudged. Dyno queens don't interest me, i just leave it down to the strip times or actual races, but i will say everything he keeps carrying on with only has km/h vs hp graphs. Zero RPM readings, barely legible torque readings (small scales on torque readings), zero real info only that it "made" just shy of 300kw at 220km/h. I just can't comprehend what its supposed to mean
And this videos explained it a little bit better, i think he got one of those derived calculated sheets (tbh the whole cam/tune package he got was absurdly cheap compared too what i know it should cost so its not surprising). Kinda feel bad for him with how much was spent on it when it might not be putting out what the paper sez its putting out
Awesome Thank-you great video
100% on the strip being the real guage of hp. I ask for drag times and mph from overseas high hp numbers and get smart comments about gear ratios etc on why they don't go
Non of these numbers mean much to me but i guess your dyno only gives you horsepower or watts but really engines make torque and horsepower is calculated
Great story and so true
I can hear all the tuners phones ringing!!!!!
Fantastic knowledge!
I remember being at dyno watching my mates car get tuned and his 4.5 diff ratio gave him 1100 torque.. they weren't looking for numbers so hadnt connected up any of the calibration stuff it was only fuel afr and ignition adjusting and just went off what numbers the dyno decided to put out
Use the dyno as a tuning tool and The numbers don't matter as long as they keep going up you are going in the right direction
I worked at a workshop where the dyno operator couldn’t even understand lambda 😂 He told the customer to change the gauge to a normal AFR reading before he’d be willing to tune it, now I can understand wanting a gauge that reads 14.7/1 as stoich because it’s what you’re comfortable with but that sent alarm bells off for me
so given that experience it doesn’t surprise me this sort of thing happens and it wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of shops are doing this none the wiser and just thinking it’s not making much of a difference
Lambda is the only ratio we use, I'm amazed at how many people don't understand it and it's the most important number, It all comes down to the base mathematics everyone seems to complicate things.
You need to obd scan the rpm to get an accurate result, I've seen 500rpm lower than actual which drastically changes the total power from the torque to engine speed ratio
Yes that is correct and with modern diesels that is the easiest way to get the rpm signal,
When it comes to Dynos Americas different. I look at honda Type Rs FL5 being tuned with 280 kw at FW with 93 tune and the ones in AU 230KW at the wheels on 98 tune. Either it’s way too conservative tune with full bolt ons or it’s something else. 230-40 is crap when the Puerto Ricans are pushing 640+ HP at the wheels on stock internals. 🤔
Great Video Stathi 👌👍
Stathi the 🐐🙏
This is all too common
Excellent vid Stathi
Dyno
In no particular order
1. Sales tool
2. Tuning tool
3. Measuring tool
With high rpm you will make good Tourque if it’s a turbocharged straight six like a 2jz with 30 psi plus getting shoved into it
Eg my dragster does a 1.14sec 60 ft that’s equivalent to 0-100kph in 1 sec and 3.5g
That’s letting the trans brake go at 5500rpm and the thing revs to 9200rpm
Engine Dyno is the best for true figures. A Dyno is just a tool like a flow bench. You don't race Dynos and flow benchs😂.
There is a really good video done on the motive garage channel and goes into great detail about dyno numbers and how easily they can be fudged
This video isn't really focused on the fudging side of things, it's more targeted and focusing on why people get crazy torque numbers, no disrespect to Dyno operators but more of an educational video.
It’s a lot easier if you think about power, torque and rotational speed in standard (SI) units. These are watts, nm and radians/second. Using these units, power = torque x rotational speed. So the dyno works by measuring torque at the wheel (or hub if hub dyno). It also knows the speed the dyno is rotating. Multiplying these together gives the power at the dyno. Now, to get engine torque, you have to divide the dyno power by the engine speed. The engine torque is not the same as dyno torque as the engine torque is multiplied by the transmission, diff and tyres. However, this engine torque number is not correct because there is drivetrain loss due to friction in the drivetrain.
Spot on!
The thing I appreciate the most about this response to a problem is that you have not defined it as conspiracy. Generally, stuff like this always stems from ignorance.
I feel like this is a good response because you have recognised that it is ignorance (in general) with less people doing it on purpose to deceive.
Dynos were never meant to give real world power / torque numbers. They are a tuning tool - you can only compare before and after numbers on the same day to measure changes to the vehicle.
This actually makes a lot of sense since I had a few dyno runs and noticed my ssv with l98 make 470hp and 540nm does that sound legit cause now I’m worried I got stitched with dodgy tuners 😅swear it made more nm almost stovk with a baby cam then going to a vcm 883 😵💫
I like this guy he sounds like someone I’d be happy to take my car too 💯
You will probably find that your smaller cam did actual make more torque than the bigger cam as that is something I would expect to see, more horsepower you make in the higher RPM range the lower the torque.
Bigger does not necessarily mean it's going to be better, most people question why we recommend the smaller cams as opposed to the bigger cams and this is the reason
@@IndependentMotorsportsdefinitely correct there I was told the cam I chose was too big should have went a crow cam and not a vcm not the best cams going especially only making 5hp more with the e85 not a great combo 😑good Info for the next time round
@@Tattooharlz nothing wrong with the VCM range, its all about the correct combination. Every time a car turns up at our workshop with the boot full of parts that the customer has hand selected always turns into a disaster build. This is why we like to select All the parts so the combination works.
Very informative and honest no bullshit about the facts 👏🏻
Great knowledge given here for free. Much respect.
Love your honestly
Unfortunately a lot of other dyno operators are only interested in ripping people off $$$.
Hey man, do you boys work on 3.8 holdens at all? thanks
Correct me if I'm wrong but a dyno measures torque and horsepower is calculated based on torque at a certain rpm. The dyno doesn't measure horsepower and then calculate torque based off that.
Hub or roller dyno's measure torque a the hubs/wheels with load cell and inertia. remember it gets multiplied by the gear ratios of your gearbox, diff, tyres, The dyno uses this measured torque and the rpm of the dyno (not engine) to calculate the power at wheels / hubs. To get the torque as explained on this video, the power numbers need to be calculated by engine rpm. Which at the end of the day isn't really a useful number either. As you are using wheel power and engine speed to measure torque. so the torque number is actually torque at the engine minus drive line loss. The original number measured by the dyno is actually torque at the wheels, thats hitting the pavement. Its obviously different in every gear and different again in an auto with converter. Moral of the story unless its an engine dyno. just look at the hp numbers and the torque curve not the torque numbers
To dumb it down it's a tuning tool nothing more than that, As long as the numbers keep going up and you work from your baseline you're making progress.
Engine dyno is king for actual figures and MPH Is the most accurate when backwards calculating.
You should always compare apples with apples to save all the confusion
Yes mate. That's correct. Engines generate mechanical torque, not power. Torque over time (RPM is time) equals indicated power. If you want more power, than the engine needs to be able to generate more torque. Don't know why he explained it the way he did. Completely backwards. But you can calculate either figure (power, torque) once you have one of them. Although breath of fresh air too finally see someone else pointing out the ludicrous torque figures people claiming.
Little funny if you go back to watch old videos, how drastic cam specs have changed over the years regarding LSA. They're getting tighter. Especially after asking years ago about running a tighter LSA and basically told "na wrong" Guess he's consistently backwards.
@@serioussam6339 Its explained how a dyno works, rather than an engine. A dyno has no idea how much torque an engine makes, when you are measuring at the wheels or hubs. But it does know the torque at the wheels and the rpm at wheels. Which equals power at wheels.
Doesn't an induction clamp produce a pulse every two crankshaft rotations?
All depends on your ignition setup, The Dyno gives you a configurations setup to adjust for this.
Calibrate your tools so they work correctly that's the moral of the story.
🙏
Thanks for sharing.
Great video 👍
Well explained 👏
What about my LS1 With a Harrop HTV 2300 453 kw 993 nm dose that sound right built by Sam's Performance and yes with a Magnum F
Probably wouldn’t be to far off anything forced induction makes good Tourque numbers
If you had two cars same engine and same peak power
But one was na and one forced induction
The forced induction will always accelerate faster due to the higher torque numbers
And torque is what moves things not power as power is simply a calculation of torque times rpm
Agreed, i think its pretty close...maybe a touch high. My FGX has 421rwkw and 811nm but a stock blower. I think your figures are accurate not a fudge - dyno itself might be a little off but they aren't BSing you. PS My car was tuned by one of the best and most highly regarding in the country so i know mine was about as accurate as you can get.
Also remember the torque numbers shown (if calculated correct) will be engine torque minus the driveline loss. Since they are being calculated from power at wheels and engine rpm. It isn't engine torque or torque at wheels.
Dyno dynamics give you the option to show engine or wheel torque and we always show wheel,that is the most accurate for obvious reasons.
Sorry mate I read that with my eyes closed ignore My response
@@IndependentMotorsports all good! wasn't having a go or anything just adding to what you said, nice video. I get called out on the torque numbers on my channel all the time, as my dyno shows the torque numbers that the dyno sees, which are obviously way higher than what people are expecting. Its an older setup, that doesn't have any of the engine rpm math
@@Garage4age All good mate what dyno do you have?
@@IndependentMotorsports Its an old vane dyno (now mainline) running dynotorque control. A lot of the old vane dyno's here in NZ were upgraded to their control in early 2000's, mine was one of the last ones they done around 2015 ish. Pretty sure nz would be the only place you would find them
Those numbers look funny.
3000 RPM at 100 km/hr..?
My V6 (3.6L) ticks over at 1850 RPM @ 100 km/hr.
Am I missing something here.
It's in 4th gear if manual or auto will be in 3rd. Usually pull is done at 1:1 gearbox output
@@caillangojak8540
Thanks. Yes that makes sense.. 🏁
Hello @mpwperformance
wow billet crank, Fast manifold, ported heads by Higgins, customised cam, full tunned try y headers and free flowing exhaust and free flowing cats and race fuel, engine revining to NA at 8,000 rpm, sure you can get around the 350Kw with about 600 nm of torque, its about what cam your using and crank and as they say a engine is just a air pump so the more efficient and better flowing that air pump is working the more power with the right fuel, your going to make big power compared to a stock ls1, Ls2 6lt and so on?
People for get your not going to make power unless you spend a lot of money with hi end internal components and blue printing everything that moves in that engine? cheers 👌✌👍😎🦘
Also what's that old saying nothing beats big blocks right no substitute for cubic inches right? so you can have a ls platform but its stroked out to a 416 or 408 right?
Great vid makes alot sence now after seeing a ross review vid a few days ago with an ls1 stato making in the mid to 300 kw range but 1100 nm souds like a good shop to stay away from
Yep a shop or 2 in WA.