It's funny to think Jaheira and Viconia had been living but a short walk from each other for who knows how many years and yet they never met (until this point in the game).
@@travissteffel7431 Shadowheart has been in the house of grief for 40 years. This is very clearly stated in the game. Viconia has been at lead of the cloister and her whole mission from Shar was to raise Shadowheart so she's been there for all that time. What makes you think that Jaheira has only been living in her house for 2 years?
@@JannPoo you missed the convo bud, the other guybasked how long she had been on her quest into the shawdow realm. I answered by saying not more then a year or two. So I'm saying jaheria couldn't have been out of the city longer then a year or two. Probally less time then that but I'm being as generous as I can
Anyone else notice her memories are in the mirror if you choose to gain wisdom. Memories of a drow who served another but then came to shar and of companions that she remembered fondly. Sounds like all her good parts including her loyalty to her comrades where lost to the mirror
The problem is how wotc chose to do with her as a character knowing how deep her character was and beloved yet they gave no shits. Now that larian is gone, in all likelihood, what will they make canon would be dark justiciar shadowheart, Laezel eaten and ascended astarion given when they did to both sarevok and viconia. So those “whiners” are just a herald to what is to come. Why could they not do what dragon age does and import old saves and choices into the new game? I mean depending on what u did in dragon age 1, certain comapnions in the sequels will be different.
@@nathanieljefferies5491well we have statistics now, so they’ll probably base it on those. (How many people ended with Selenite vs Sharan Shadowheart, etc)
@@ethosterros9430 how is it contrived tho,i have the feeling there is no way they could have put in old characters without somebody calling it contrived its impossible
@@ethosterros9430 yep and for DnD that isnt wild at all,as i said its impossible to bring back a character without being contrived for some,i have the feeling there would be no explanation that would satisfy you on top of that jaheira and viconia dont have the age problem
@@feto5310 I would rather not have the cameos. But then I'm part of the crowd that would have preferred a divinity 3 from larian. I just dont think they understand baldurs gate at its core. Like they got the dnd stuff down just not what made that series feel the way it did. Maybe it's my autismo OCD but it just rubs me wrong even if it's a good game.
for all those that are sad about Viconia, remember in the "good ending" where you romance and convert her, she's quite DEAD...assassinated by Lloth. the alternative is she is left alive and in the service of Shar..who this game illustrates very nicely is NOT a good patron to follow if you want anything resembling a happy ending. And really..the concept of something like happiness and joy completely alien to her..going from one evil godess to another..pretty much doomed from birth.
I'm more upset that they didn't bring Gray Delisle back to voice Viconia. =( Jahiera's VA basicly disappeared and Jim Cummings I think retired but Delisle is still very active.
This is the inevitable end for the worshipers of shar. Even dark justiciars aren't safe from her assuming she was still worshiping lolth she'd be in an even worse place.
Still a worse version of her non-romance epilogue. They introduced retcons into it to make Viconia worse. Larian didn't have to do her bad like they did.
You forgot how she allied with Drizzt to save the Elves of Suldanessellar and received the highest honor among elvenkind. Now she is just a pysco evil bitch
Hes the heart of bg1 with that hamster. The only meme thing is such an iconic character is one of the worst classes in the original game and his agi and con score also made him not so good for melee either. Like his damage was fine with the str score but melees needed to be able to take hits and he was bad at that.
well I didn't. Maybe I will try to recruit him asap in my next gameplay, but in my previous gameplay I only have other place for long ranged AoE characters like Gale or Wyll, since Shadowheart and Astarion are unreplaceble.
@@Exile19941 She had two endings. if you romanced her, she would become a nicer person, and actually ingame make an Alignment shift from Neutral Evil to True neutral. On that Path she died, cause she settled down with the PC and kinda let her Guard down. The other path, where she remains Evil, is where she survives. Since shes obviously Alive in BG3, she didnt go through all the Character Development that everyone in this Comment section is talking about, so her unsympatheic disposition after stewing under Shars influence for 100 Years is quite understandable.
@@centimanj8916 I mean they did say in the game like with seravok(who was the main villain in the first game but became a companion in bg2) she had a chance to be good but wasted it so they could’ve twisted it to have it be both endings be somewhat canon says she did but saw the raid and she escaped and used astral projection either that or if the PC could shapeshift they could’ve taken her place
And? Remember, that Speak with Animals is a completely common perk in the DnD universe, and that animals are sentient and will have full conversations with you if you use it to talk to them. Minsc just has the perk.
@@jazzyj7834 If you use Speak With Animals you can't talk to Boo, who isn't a regular animal. Miniature Giant Space Hamsters are telepathic, which is how Boo communicates
@@DasKame I would've liked to see a tortured, hellbound Irenicus in BG3, maybe as a boss. I kinda expected it at some point because there were many references to Avernus ( where he seems to end up ), we eventually go there too, and there was this book about him and Volo's monologue. Irenicus was the best antagonist in any RPG in my book. He made it personal with you and your party early on, had a complex storyline, had a pretty cool appearance and was quite powerful. He also had great wit and his voice was memorable. Unfortunately the actor who did his voice died in 2022.
Just going to drop the text of Viconia's non-romance Epilogue from BG2 Throne of Bhaal here, since a lot of people seem have incorrect interpretations about her characterization from that ending: 'No longer with 'Bhaalspawn', Viconia went on to found a cult dedicated to Shar in the city of Waterdeep. One of her followers betrayed her, however, prompting the slaughter of the whole tainted lot. Shar admonished Viconia strongly for this, but she was unrepentant and again wandered the Realms. Viconia was still formbidable, and went on to prevent an attempt by hte Knights of the Shield to take over Calimport, and even worked with Drizzt Do'Urden to save the elven city of Suldanessalar from a Zhentarim plot. For this last act, the elves accepted her, and Queen Ellesime bestowed the highest honors of the Seldarine, an accolade never before given to one of her dark kind. Viconia reportedly bowed once without emotion, and then left. Her fate remains unknown.' This is why I'm deeply upset by Larian's portrayal of Viconia in BG3. This is her NON-ROMANCE Epilogue, and even in it she gives the middle finger to her goddess and walks off into the sunset after being a hero and saving a ton of people. She literally has Minthara's exact plot of giving the middle finger to every god that tries to make her do stuff she's morally opposed to with Lolth and Shar, and then in BG3 she's the exact opposite of her BG2 writing.
@@eastbow6053 Not really unexpected. Drow are vary long lived, but due to the hostile environment and violent society. Its pretty rare for them to reach old age.
In fairness, the canon MC of BG1 and 2 (Abdel Adrian) really sucked and did the bare minimum. If he had put in as much effort as most players, the setting of BG3 would have been rather different.
@@AndrewTheZ Its funny how much of a god you could create in the original games just power gaming the system. Usually something dumb like duel classing berzerker to level 9 then taking mage. Making a V line straight for the staff of magi then just proceeding to absolute shit stomp everything solo.
I have to admit, Viconia is one of the biggest places I feel Larian fucked up in BG3. She's nothing resembling her characterization in BG1 and 2. When you explore her story in those games, you find out she turned to Shar after having to flee Drow society because she refused to sacrifice a child to Lolth. She starts off the games initially very catty and combative, similar to Lae'zel, but as you progress through the story you begin to crack her shell and learns there's a lot more depth to her. You can even eventually convince her into a full alignment shift, but even if you don't, if she's part of your core party when you beat BG2's Throne of Bhaal, she actually ends up teaming up with Drizzt to fight off an invasion to save multiple surface cities. A big part of your initial meetings with Viconia in BG1 and 2 is saving her from prejudicial surfacers who assume she's just another evil Drow, as in BG1 she's being pursued by the Flaming Fist and in BG2 a group of angry townsfolk are trying to burn her at the stake. So seeing them turn around and just turn her into another evil manipulative Drow feels extremely wrong, given her previous characterization and character development. It feels like whoever wrote her storyline literally met her, talked to her for like one conversation and assumed that she was always like that and hated her, especially given how Minsc and Jaheira talk about her in BG3.
@@1wayroad935 gEt oVeR iT. Sounds like someone who never play previous games and had it easy compared to some of us who wanted a great continuation of the story. If not for the success of the previous 2 games, Baldur's Gate won't even be a thing and you probably never heard of it until it gone mainstream with the bear scene. Get the f out of this series you bandwagon s**m Viconia is unlucky that she got bad character treatment but you won't hear mainstream fans complaining about it because she's someone from a game of 20 years ago. If she's someone like Joel from TLOU whose game is in a recent era, you would see the same outrage from fans just like how Naughty Dog did him in the 2nd game
@@abitdodgy2844 Gatekeepers gonna gatekeep, it seems. How about you try not sounding like a boomer who's mad over the success of the third game. Viconia turns evil over the course of the module that the BG series is based on, that's canon fact and predates the video games, so sorry that your waifu bait doesn't meet your delusions.
@@evilmiera It's kind of depressing to see people who clearly never cared about those characters bring them back to life.. just to butcher their stories. I'm kinda shocked how Larian thought this is a good idea.
For a game with many positives, the handling of returning characters is... mixed. They largely seemed to have lifted the characters from their introductions and ignored most the development. It works fine with Minsc and Jaheira. Sarevok, arguably? It doesn't really make sense that a good Gorion's Ward would just let Evil!Sarevok run around. Either redeem him or replant him in the ground. Viconia though? She flees the Underdark because she wouldn't kill a child and Lolth's pissed. In BG1 she's found fleeing guards for presumably false accusations. Her party conflicts are never started by her. In BG2 she's running again because when she tried to settle down she got jumped and left for dead then killed them in self-defense. If you look at her character and not her cleric required alignment, she was more Neutral-Rude with the odd vicious streak than actually Neutral-Evil. So, even with her initial characterization, she didn't act like she did now. I find it hard to see her as the same character, different VA notwithstanding.
People are getting their panties in a twist because "ThAt'S nOt My ViCoNiA!" add or replace legacy character name as appropriate. You can't write for player choice, if Vic was redeemed she DIES in her ending of BG2 Jaheria can leave or be killed by the Bhaalspawn in 1 and 2 Minsc is not immune to player shenanigans. People have a hard time separating their fantasy that the game allows and the developers choices. Vic leaving Lolth for Shar is probably a mercy considering even if she wasn't doing shady shit she was strung up and on the verge of being burned at the stake in BG2 there is no normal life for Vic without a way to protect herself why not the goddess of secrets to hide from Lolth
@@ongoingprocessfailed She dies only if you romanced her and stayed as mortal with her. Same with the allignment change, only if romanced. In canon Bhaal's spawn romanced Jaheira. Viconia canon ending is travels, saves the elf city once more with Drizzt. Getting recognised by elven Qeen and getting a medal.😊 Establishment of Shar sect, later they tried to kill her, she obliterates them... and get admonished by Shar. She was never an evil like other evil characters. From her stories: She kills only in selfdefense. Didn't sacrifice a child to Loth, had to flee and Shar was selected, bc She had to. In my opinion She got stuck with evil as a Drow. But her conduct. Like saving a beggar from being punished by Guards in Athkatla makes her a neutral.
@@ongoingprocessfailed Even if you redeem Vic zero percent at all her baseline personality still wouldn't condone her actions in bg3 its shit writing either by Larian or by WOTC stop your BS
@mc_rysiek5277 It states that in the Baldur's Gate wiki, but now I'm not so sure. We do know that she is likely well over 100 when she enters the scene because the time that she tells you about needing to sacrifice an infant if you romance her in BG2, would have been close to 100 years before the events of BG1. A test like that would be a test to determine if someone is truly an adult in the drow world, and drow don't become adults until their 40s or 50s. BG3 happens roughly 100 years after the end of BG2, so I would say she is at least in the 250 years old range then. Really should not be looking that old, then, unless something about Shar corrupted her looks.
@@Spotastic9 No, it doesn't, I've checked her entire entry on BG Wiki, and there's nothing of the sort. I've even checked her entry on the Forgotten Realms Wiki, still nothing. House DeVir has been destroyed in 1297 DR, 69 years before the events of BG1 (1368). On average, an acolyte enters Arach-Tinilith at the age of 40, and spends 50 years learning. Meaning Viconia would be, at least, around 159 years old at the time of BG1, and around 283 at the time of BG3.
Honestly, This game basically assasinated Viconia's character, yeah shes evil but the is not a 1 dimensional cult leader. Plus she can be some what redeemed in BG2. Even if they wanted to bring her back as a villian, could they not make her a more interesting one? You could replace her with any priest of Shar and it would change nothing.
@@dantedragocuore I know the exact date House DeVir was destroyed. 1297 DR. That's 16 years after the Icewind Dale game, 15 years before the Icewind Dale 2 game, 71 years before Baldur's Gate 1, 72-73 years before Baldur's Gate 2, 75 years before Neverwinter Nights, 77 years before Neverwinter Nights 2 and Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance, 78 years before Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance 2, and 196 before Baldur's Gate 3.
Viconia and Vizeran = Joestar family technique Valas = "Break a leg, I've got several to spare." Alton = "MY FACE _ASPOL- MELT! ...... then ASPLODE" Ginafae = "The Zak got my tongue" And on top of all that, Matron Mother Baenre (Who is probably Minthara's Grandmother or GreatX? Grandmother?) basically summoned Malice to the Baenre compound to personally congratulate her on a job well done like the next day. So, yeah. The spite is justified, if a little old.
Alas, Viconia only turned Neutral if you romanced her. Meaning that if she were Neutral, that would mean the canon plot was the OG Bhaalspawn wifed her and had a kid with her, based on their epilogue. Not that I would object to that in the slightest, as that was my ideal ending. But it does interfere with the intended 'we aren't committing to a specific ending' angle they took with the OG Bhaalspawn's story.
@@Terralventhe Why would they refer to the canon plot ? It's Baldur's Gate 3, they could let us import ou save file from Baldur's Gate 2, or at least let us pick the events like in Mass Effect with 'Genesis'. If they don't want to make a sequel and just use the lore of forgotten realms, then they can name their game something else.
@@WallySketch I mean, for one, Larian was forced to make most of their narrative decisions based on what Wizards of the Coast decided was "hard-locked canon." Unfortunately, that also means that all of the BG3 narratives are not derived from the previous games, but instead the godawful books where the protagonist was a dumb edgelord called ""Abdel Adrian"", and the author killed off Khalid and Minsc in the first five chapters because he didn't like them in the game, while turning Jaheira into a vapid bimbo who keeps falling over like a cheerleader in a horror movie, and who wants to jump Abdel's bones -- only to be forced to bring Minsc back in the BG2 novel because the game made it so. He ditched Imoen at every turn and.. look, the novels were just really, REALLY bad. lol So we were never really going to get a 'faithful to the previous two games' sequel in terms of the narrative from the getgo.
@@TheAutisticBrony They didn't bring a single voice actor back from the original games. There's more than just Viconia, Jaheria, and Minsc. It was pretty clear they didn't care to.
May be that they didn't have the ability, may be that they couldn't afford to. All in all, I think these folks do well. My least favorite is Mercer, he's been in so much, I can hear him through anything.
@@thenameless3271 I refuse to believe they didn't have the ability or resources to rehire at least one original voice actor. This had to have been on purpose.
@@TheAutisticBrony To be fair, Jaheira's original voice actress effectively dropped off the face of the earth--finding her is likely more difficult than it's worth. Jim Cummings is a "controversial" figure as of late given allegations. As for Grey DeLise? Could just be she wasn't interested, or she didn't have the time. She's a busy woman with a number of possibilities and roles to act for.
I can really identify with Minsc when it comes to Viconia and Sarevok. Both were characters who made a ton of mistakes and were given a second chance at life.... then proceeded to utterly waste it.
Viconia actually had a very solid character arc in BG2 that transformed her into a hero, and no at the end of Throne of Bhaal, she actually becomes a hero who teams up with Drizzt to save multiple surface cities after the events of the story. Her characterization in BG3 is actually an enormous betrayal of how she was portrayed in BG2. She literally refused to serve Lolth because she was asked to sacrifice a child, so seeing her turn around and basically do the same with Shadowheart in BG3 is the exact opposite of her original character.
negative, even in her non-romance ending it describes that she worked with Drizzt Do'urden to save Suldanessalar from the Zhentarim. She was giving the highest honor of the Seldarine to which she bowed without emotion and then left. It then states that her fate remains unknown. You can go watch a video of her non-romance ending to verify that what I'm saying is accurate, it only takes like 30 seconds.@@marvelgirlxvii
@@marvelgirlxvii That was the non-alignment shift ending that Jenn was referencing. Even when Viconia remains Evil, she still turns out to not be that awful of a person. Wizards of the Coast purposely rewrote her epilogues to make her a worse person.
@@Rzepik This is very much in line with Viconia in 1+2, without gooing through her character ark in these games... Which she canonically didnt, since her character Development only happens if you romance her. After which she dies. Which she didnt, obviously. Add to that stewing for 100 Years under Shars influence, and voila.
@@centimanj8916 Nope. You must be misremembering things. 1. First of all, her romance doesn't have to change her alignment. 2. And the most important part - her non-romance epilogue is the heavily implied redemption epilogue. FFS, she joins Drizzt to fight bad guys. And she has a bit of falling out with Shar after the temple massacre (here retconned to "it was Shar's orders).
darkness spam was broken in early patches. daylight supposed to counter the darkness spell but you cannot fucking cast anything in the darkness because your caster char tries to walk for casting. indeed was the hardest encounter in the game for me.
Jaheira was one of the very few companions Viconia actually respected while Jaheira wasn't Lawful Good and appreciated balance in all things. Now Jaheira immediately insults her while Viconia doesn't bite back. They were in the same party together for 2 games. It doesn't feel right that there's nothing else.
Agreed. Jaheira had a shell you had to crack. She didn't open herself so easily in BG2. To her it was a demonstration of emotional strength and she saw the same in Viconia which made her respect her. She appreciated Viconia's straightforward manners. Jaheira was more annoyed by the good aligned Aerie lol.
look how they massacred our girl. I mean, I have romanced Viconia in my playthrough of BG2 and than ascended. The Viconia I knew was non evil and switched from worshiping Shar. They could have shown her a bit egoistic and manipulative, but this? Fuck.
@@Methoswicca only if she was romanced and main character chose NOT to ascent. In my case I have ascended and Viconia was romanced with her redemption arc complete.
In her evil ending she leaves Shar too. Or at least has a faling-out with her, it's not clear. But I mean, c'mon, she joins drizzt and saves an elven city, take a fookin hint larian.
Viconia's memories were altered here in the BG3 time; probably by Shar. She's still the Viconia that Gorion's Ward have traveled with. Everyone needs to go check Viconia's past in the Mirror of Memories.
I never played bg1 or bg2 so I can't say how well this game does fanservice but having read the book on miniature giant space hamsters I do love that I was able to identify Boo correctly as such. I'm honestly surprised they actually existed but Boo does have a way of surprising people I suppose.
@Alienoiable he was super annoying and arrogant, but I liked to laugh at him. But yes you want to do his quest line correct, mostly to give him that wisdom boost
Kinda weird that Viconia looks old seeing as drows live for 700 to 1000 years while Jaheira a half-elf who lives just over 200 years makes sense to look older seeing as it's been over a hundred years.
I did NOT play the first 2 Baldur gates games but knowing viconia USED to be an ally makes me hesitate to kill her, but I still want her shield, it’s possible to knock her, loot the shield, do a long rest and get the “spare her” dialogue or something like that?
In her default non romance ending, she straight up saves an entire elven city from destruction and abandons shar. this is straight up a retcon that borders on hatefic
@@stannisbaratheon_1 Dont worry, people who dont know what BG 1-2 is, still have 100 reasons to tell you that the game is a masterpiece, that act 3 is good, and game is not in EA.
Ah come on. Dirty? She's alive. What about Dynaheir, Xzar, Khalid, Garrick and many many many other Partymembers of Baldurs Gate 1 that died horrible in Baldurs Gate 2? Viconia is neraby greacful in her place in comparison
Its Nice to ser their reaction. Thing is...If you get to Baldurs Gate before solving that part of his personal Quest It becomes easy to explore the Dungeon. Act 3 should let you get more than 12 since the last missions doesnt grant anything more than enchanted itens. Money and experience doesnt matter in the last act...
I think cutting things off at 12 was a very deliberate decision. 13 is when casters get access to 7th level spells and thus things like Teleport, Forcecage, Planeshift, and Simulacrum. All things that I can imagine would drive the Devs absolutely nuts. So while I too would like if there were a couple more character levels, I totally get why they stopped where they did.
I do feel sad about the route they took with her in bg3 but I guess her being commited to evil would be the cannon version. Besides im assuming they also did it because the evil drow companion role was already taken by Minthara
oh boy a video showcasing 3 Baldur's Gate legacy characters all interacting with each other! i loved these three characters in baldur's gate 1 and 2 and putting aside my personal journeys with them, i think this is a neat little callback even if it doesn't fit precisely with the romance route (which i couldn't do because i made a female MC anyway)! i sure hope the comments section is respectful, openminded, and has normal opinions about women and LGBTQ+ people
i love that fact that many many many people say "Wait! MINSC SHOULD BE OLD BY THAT TIME!" and nobody had a Problem with the hamster surviving 100 Years XD
The woman who abandoned Lolth and lead to the destruction of her house and the effective death of a brother she loves because she refused to sacrifice a child in a deities name, is now perfectly ok with kidnapping, torturing, and brainwashing a child in Shar's name, despite even in her own default non romance ending of baldurs gate 2 she has a falling out with shar and goes down the route of a stoic antihero, who saves an elven city from destruction with a very famous Drow hero. They don't act, look, or sound like Viconia. And could very easily just be a generic villain aside from the name. quite frankly Larian can fuck themself for getting a character this wrong and conveniently sliding into the last act of the game knowing full well people would've torched them if this was in the early access.
What you describe could very well not happen if you never saved her (she dies, or survives through her own wiles presumably further scarred and embittered) or the PC didn't work their azz off to redeem her, she's EVIL on her character sheet, though of course she might say what you want to hear and what she needs to say if you're her easiest ticket out of some repeat torches and pitchforks events.
Her default ending has her falling out with shar and saving an elven city from destruction before wandering off on her own. And she was only "evil" due to her survivor instincts. She even openly states she'd support you as your first cleric if you go the divine route of bg2@@childesinthev.761
Jaheira is literally dead as per WOTC "Canon" that excuse doesnt work and if the choice was to butcher them comedically or not put them in, thats on Larian@@IllJoy
@@stannisbaratheon_1 Larian had zero decisions on the lore, it was all dictated by Wotc, INCLUDED RETCONS. If you want to rage at someone, rage at them
Pretty sure this is part of stuff that wasn't elaborated on as much such as Karlach to a level. Plus BG3 is not a direct sequel (it's a fair bit removed to allow it breathe as its own title w/ callbacks like this interspiced).
@@theepicduck6922 Just some good ol' memberberries that don't make any sense if you think about them for more than a second... I must be living in a purgatory as a punishment for all the laughing at trekkies I did.
So Baldur's Gate 3 takes place close to a century after the events of Throne of Bhaal. Minsc got turned to a statue sometime after ToB. I don't think they ever gave Jaherria or Viconia their age canonically during the Bhaalspawn Saga.
In BG2? Yes, she's about to be burned at the stake in the Temple District, IIRC. In BG1 she is being chased by people and you similarly can bail her out.
Just remember BG3 is not a sequel to BG2. It's an alternate history in the same setting. Basically if the Bhaalspawn never did anything (EDIT: I mean to say never ascended, they still did stuff "live their life") and just kinda lived their life. In this timeline Viconia founds the Sharite cult she made post BG2 and keeps it going. In BG2 if the Bhaalspawn doesn't romance viconia she founds then kills her sharite cult after they betray her, then saves an elven city with Drizz't Do'Urden. Implying her alignment changes regardless of the romance, just off vs on screen.
What Sarevok is in the game and Jahaeria will mention that he was redeemed, only for him to go back to Bhaal decades afterwards. That kinda means Charname has to exist of Sarevok was brought back to life as good-aligned
@@ethanduncan1646 Never wrote the Bhaalspawn didn't exist. Just that in BG3 what everyone did is very different than the canon of BG1&2. An alternate universe take. Which means that Sarevok can still be redeemed but how it happened is arbitrary. Could be the Bhaalspawn sure, but ultimately the canon ending in BG2 didn't happen in BG3 and what the BG2 characters have done after is different than the BG2 game epilogues.
@@ecklesezekiel9804it is NOT an alternate universe take, it is just Wizard of the Coast forcing their own version of canon unto this, they have been trying to do this ever since they release the “Murder in Baldur’s Gate” module all those years ago.
@@ecklesezekiel9804 have you not seen all the amount of products made by wizards of the coast in recent years that are directly related with Baldur’s Gate?, from the aforementioned module “Murder in Baldur’s Gate”, the module “Descent into Avernus”, the Magic the Gathering expansion in which all origin characters (except the dark urge) from BG3 were released as cards, to Baldur’s Gate 3 itself, that’s a huge amount of time and investment to create interest on a product, only to disregard it moving forward?… it just doesn’t makes sense, so yeah this is canon until WotC declares it not to be (which doesn’t seems to be the case for now… or ever really considering how good the game is doing). Plus it wouldn’t be the first time they did a retcon, first they retconned the games to canonize the (awful) novels, only to walk back on that and canonize the version of the story on “Murder in Baldur’s Gate”, so yeah they have done it before (despite people generally hating it) and they are likely to do it again.
So, Jaheira is still attractive, (though a lot more masculine than 1 or 2) but what the HELL did they do to Viconia? Why is the modern industry so insistent on removing attractive women?
What are you talking about? She's got an attractive build, revealing attire and long white blonde hair. That's all the box ticks for the typical gamer bro thirst trap
Given how Viconia is arguably the best character in BG2, going so far as to have her own romance theme be a variation of the main theme, this depiction by Larian felt really low. Now let’s be honest: I know people are all hyped up with the new BG3 and all, and while I like it too, I don’t think Larian is the best at storytelling. Sure, the game is fun due to its sandboxy nature. But the quality of writing is only ok, and it really shows here. But I don’t think it compares to the stuff that BioWare or Obsidian put out there when it comes to writing. Just go check Kreia from Sw: KOTOR2.
@@Kill0rGurke and Lae Zel said that Boo's race exist - just not the miniature part (miniature giant space hamsters) they're really trying to F with our minds LOL
People have a hard time separating their fantasy that the game allows and the developers choices. Vic leaving Lolth for Shar is probably a mercy considering even if she wasn't doing shady shit she was strung up and on the verge of being burned at the stake in BG2 there is no normal life for Vic without a way to protect herself why not the goddess of secrets to hide from Lolth. Minsc was brought back in lore in the Forgotten Realm mythos years before not as a ploy to shoehorn him into the game. Honestly, its nice to see Jaheira vibing, she's changed a lot but in ways I enjoyed.
People are getting their panties in a twist because "ThAt'S nOt My ViCoNiA!" add or replace legacy character name as appropriate. You can't write for player choice, if Vic was redeemed she DIES in her ending of BG2 Jaheria can leave or be killed by the Bhaalspawn in 1 and 2 Minsc is not immune to player shenanigans.
@@ongoingprocessfailedEven if she isn’t romanced she still in a way redeems herself. She rebels against Shar and saves the elven city of Suldanessellar alongside Drizzt, she is then awarded with the highest honor by Queen Ellesime. BG3 literally had to retcon parts of that and make her character do a complete 180 back to being a stupid fanatic who didn’t learn a thing who just gets killed in game within minutes of meeting her again.
Here because I missed all these cutscenes because Shadowheart's plot got bugged way before this in the shadowlands. We managed to free the Nightsong long before discovering what it was, and then when we backtracked to try to fill in what we missed it was bugged and broken because the Nightsong wasn't there. Shadowheart was a schizo ever since, and many dialogues never triggered.
One thing i am not happy about is how they made Viconia look. She is a drow, they live a very long a time so she needn't look as old as she does. Also, she is supposed to be stunningly beautiful, she looks like Courtney Love on a bad day here.
I dislike what they did with her character as well but I think the aging is fine. Radiation in the Underdark shortens their lifespans, Drow are long lived compared to Humans, short lived compared to regular Elves. If I remember correctly anyway, mostly going off the early Drizzt books where Matron Baenre was like 800 and ancient in Drow years. With that in mind, and I think 125ish years between Bg2 and 3, Viconia would be middle aged in terms of Drow years. I also don't like what they did with the character but her physical appearance is fairly accurate at least. Unless Drow live longer now, in which case damn they just butchered the character all around. Great game but if they wanted an old evil companion to fill this role Id of sooner taken Edwin or Kagain. Hell, Montaron and Xzar even.
@@purpleparadise536 I disagree. Being older is one thing, but her looks are not like they should be. There are plenty of middle aged women/people who are beautiful, especially if they were beautiful when they were younger. Also, 125 is not middle aged for a drow. It may not be as young as another elf but it's still too young to have her look this age, especially considering how beautiful she was. She looks like the drow version of a strung out, drug addict.
@@purpleparadise536 Drow ARE elves! The two races are equally long-lived; Drow society is merely more conducive to untimely demises. A the very least, Viconia ought to have looked younger than Jaheira any day, seeing how the latter is a half-elf.
@@DasKamewriting a character dead and bringing back a returning character in name only, with none of their original personality are two different things. At least they didn't bring back Aerie 🤮🤮🤮
They shat on all Drows in this Game and they still didn't finish it. I'm surprised they didn't have a Drizzt Cameo only to have them throw a Huge Rock on him like Wild E. Coyote. Cringe Larian Stuff, just Lazy like a lot of Stuff that isn't acknowledged by Crazy Fanboys.
@@naljiaskal5004 Nah, but i remember Khalid and Dynaheir and i was VERY pissed the "Poochied" both Off Screen in BG2. So i don'T Mind to fight Viconia (and let her Escape at the end)
She was less crazy backstab-happy than Drow nobility was typically portrayed as (or at least that's how she presented herself when around a non-evil PC) but yeah she wasn't a good person.
I think Abdel Adrian was meant to have romanced Jaheira, so it seems like their going for "generally vague sequel canon" rather than official Forgotten Realms canon. You can also make a pretty strong argument for Viconia having not been evil, or at least not like this.
It's funny to think Jaheira and Viconia had been living but a short walk from each other for who knows how many years and yet they never met (until this point in the game).
That’s life in a big city for you.
I don't recall the lore but how many years has Jaheira been off to fight in the Shadowlands?
Not very long couldn't have been more then a year or 2.
@@travissteffel7431 Shadowheart has been in the house of grief for 40 years. This is very clearly stated in the game. Viconia has been at lead of the cloister and her whole mission from Shar was to raise Shadowheart so she's been there for all that time.
What makes you think that Jaheira has only been living in her house for 2 years?
@@JannPoo you missed the convo bud, the other guybasked how long she had been on her quest into the shawdow realm. I answered by saying not more then a year or two. So I'm saying jaheria couldn't have been out of the city longer then a year or two. Probally less time then that but I'm being as generous as I can
Anyone else notice her memories are in the mirror if you choose to gain wisdom. Memories of a drow who served another but then came to shar and of companions that she remembered fondly. Sounds like all her good parts including her loyalty to her comrades where lost to the mirror
You're right i also checked. These "old players" be crying without knowing anything fr
@@dkylely Emotion can cloud judgment. I'm one of those "old players" who have played BG1 and BG2, but I understand Viconia more than most of them.
The problem is how wotc chose to do with her as a character knowing how deep her character was and beloved yet they gave no shits. Now that larian is gone, in all likelihood, what will they make canon would be dark justiciar shadowheart, Laezel eaten and ascended astarion given when they did to both sarevok and viconia. So those “whiners” are just a herald to what is to come. Why could they not do what dragon age does and import old saves and choices into the new game? I mean depending on what u did in dragon age 1, certain comapnions in the sequels will be different.
@@nathanieljefferies5491well we have statistics now, so they’ll probably base it on those. (How many people ended with Selenite vs Sharan Shadowheart, etc)
@@connorblack99 were the statistics with sarevok and viconia like this?
Imagine if Viconia was recruitable. You could have Dark Urge, Viconia, Minsc and Jaheira all in one team.
Just like old times, eh?
Its fan service in a way I dont like. They just Inject beloved characters into the game for no reason in the most contrived ways.
@@ethosterros9430 how is it contrived tho,i have the feeling there is no way they could have put in old characters without somebody calling it contrived its impossible
@@feto5310 minsc got petrified and un petrified so he could turn up 100 years in the future. Cmon buddy.
@@ethosterros9430 yep and for DnD that isnt wild at all,as i said its impossible to bring back a character without being contrived for some,i have the feeling there would be no explanation that would satisfy you on top of that jaheira and viconia dont have the age problem
@@feto5310 I would rather not have the cameos. But then I'm part of the crowd that would have preferred a divinity 3 from larian. I just dont think they understand baldurs gate at its core. Like they got the dnd stuff down just not what made that series feel the way it did. Maybe it's my autismo OCD but it just rubs me wrong even if it's a good game.
for all those that are sad about Viconia, remember in the "good ending" where you romance and convert her, she's quite DEAD...assassinated by Lloth. the alternative is she is left alive and in the service of Shar..who this game illustrates very nicely is NOT a good patron to follow if you want anything resembling a happy ending. And really..the concept of something like happiness and joy completely alien to her..going from one evil godess to another..pretty much doomed from birth.
I'm more upset that they didn't bring Gray Delisle back to voice Viconia. =(
Jahiera's VA basicly disappeared and Jim Cummings I think retired but Delisle is still very active.
This is the inevitable end for the worshipers of shar. Even dark justiciars aren't safe from her assuming she was still worshiping lolth she'd be in an even worse place.
Still a worse version of her non-romance epilogue. They introduced retcons into it to make Viconia worse. Larian didn't have to do her bad like they did.
You forgot how she allied with Drizzt to save the Elves of Suldanessellar and received the highest honor among elvenkind. Now she is just a pysco evil bitch
BS@@catoblepasomega
I regret having picked up Minsc so late in Act 3. Such a fun character.
Yeah I really wish you could have recruited him sooner
I regret going for Minsc right away, really ruined the flow of act 3.
Hes the heart of bg1 with that hamster. The only meme thing is such an iconic character is one of the worst classes in the original game and his agi and con score also made him not so good for melee either. Like his damage was fine with the str score but melees needed to be able to take hits and he was bad at that.
@@ethosterros9430 *miniature giant space hamster
well I didn't. Maybe I will try to recruit him asap in my next gameplay, but in my previous gameplay I only have other place for long ranged AoE characters like Gale or Wyll, since Shadowheart and Astarion are unreplaceble.
Poor VIconia...she had SUCH a good arc in Baldur's Gate 2...
Right. Reduced to such cringe for a cheap cameo. May as well not write her in at all.
Remember mostly everyone in BG1 ended horrible in BG2? XD
Though from what I was told her arc led to her death by a drow raid
@@Exile19941 She had two endings. if you romanced her, she would become a nicer person, and actually ingame make an Alignment shift from Neutral Evil to True neutral. On that Path she died, cause she settled down with the PC and kinda let her Guard down.
The other path, where she remains Evil, is where she survives.
Since shes obviously Alive in BG3, she didnt go through all the Character Development that everyone in this Comment section is talking about, so her unsympatheic disposition after stewing under Shars influence for 100 Years is quite understandable.
@@centimanj8916 I mean they did say in the game like with seravok(who was the main villain in the first game but became a companion in bg2) she had a chance to be good but wasted it so they could’ve twisted it to have it be both endings be somewhat canon says she did but saw the raid and she escaped and used astral projection either that or if the PC could shapeshift they could’ve taken her place
Anyone noticed that when he asks Boo not to listen, he actually covers his own ears?
And? Remember, that Speak with Animals is a completely common perk in the DnD universe, and that animals are sentient and will have full conversations with you if you use it to talk to them. Minsc just has the perk.
@@jazzyj7834 If you use Speak With Animals you can't talk to Boo, who isn't a regular animal. Miniature Giant Space Hamsters are telepathic, which is how Boo communicates
@@Synthonym If you drink the potion, Minsc will actually mention this, it's great. lol
@@jazzyj7834 They're already Sentient. You're talking about Sapient Animals.
@@jazzyj7834Boo is not a regular animal, he’s Minsc’s companion.
So happy I met the OG voice of Viconia! ::holds up signed copy of BG2:::
Grey Delisle?
@@nathanieljefferies5491Yup.
Man jaheria and minsc appearing in Baldur's gate 3 is such a blast from the past
+ Viconia ;)
And Saervok...and Volo/Eliminster....
and mentions of Keldorn, Khalid and Irenicus
@@williamblackfyre4866 What about Korevas?
@@DasKame I would've liked to see a tortured, hellbound Irenicus in BG3, maybe as a boss. I kinda expected it at some point because there were many references to Avernus ( where he seems to end up ), we eventually go there too, and there was this book about him and Volo's monologue. Irenicus was the best antagonist in any RPG in my book. He made it personal with you and your party early on, had a complex storyline, had a pretty cool appearance and was quite powerful. He also had great wit and his voice was memorable. Unfortunately the actor who did his voice died in 2022.
Just going to drop the text of Viconia's non-romance Epilogue from BG2 Throne of Bhaal here, since a lot of people seem have incorrect interpretations about her characterization from that ending:
'No longer with 'Bhaalspawn', Viconia went on to found a cult dedicated to Shar in the city of Waterdeep. One of her followers betrayed her, however, prompting the slaughter of the whole tainted lot. Shar admonished Viconia strongly for this, but she was unrepentant and again wandered the Realms. Viconia was still formbidable, and went on to prevent an attempt by hte Knights of the Shield to take over Calimport, and even worked with Drizzt Do'Urden to save the elven city of Suldanessalar from a Zhentarim plot. For this last act, the elves accepted her, and Queen Ellesime bestowed the highest honors of the Seldarine, an accolade never before given to one of her dark kind. Viconia reportedly bowed once without emotion, and then left. Her fate remains unknown.'
This is why I'm deeply upset by Larian's portrayal of Viconia in BG3. This is her NON-ROMANCE Epilogue, and even in it she gives the middle finger to her goddess and walks off into the sunset after being a hero and saving a ton of people. She literally has Minthara's exact plot of giving the middle finger to every god that tries to make her do stuff she's morally opposed to with Lolth and Shar, and then in BG3 she's the exact opposite of her BG2 writing.
This makes this OLD BG1 Gamer so Nostalgic....Viconia was the First PC character i ever romanced in any video game!
And 20 years later, you kill her
Vic is so silly 🐢
What? Viconia? Noooooo :(
Took a lot of effort to romance her and changed her alignment in BG2...
WHAT... THAT IS HER?
@@eastbow6053 yup
@@eastbow6053 Not really unexpected. Drow are vary long lived, but due to the hostile environment and violent society. Its pretty rare for them to reach old age.
In fairness, the canon MC of BG1 and 2 (Abdel Adrian) really sucked and did the bare minimum.
If he had put in as much effort as most players, the setting of BG3 would have been rather different.
@@AndrewTheZ Its funny how much of a god you could create in the original games just power gaming the system. Usually something dumb like duel classing berzerker to level 9 then taking mage. Making a V line straight for the staff of magi then just proceeding to absolute shit stomp everything solo.
I have to admit, Viconia is one of the biggest places I feel Larian fucked up in BG3. She's nothing resembling her characterization in BG1 and 2. When you explore her story in those games, you find out she turned to Shar after having to flee Drow society because she refused to sacrifice a child to Lolth. She starts off the games initially very catty and combative, similar to Lae'zel, but as you progress through the story you begin to crack her shell and learns there's a lot more depth to her. You can even eventually convince her into a full alignment shift, but even if you don't, if she's part of your core party when you beat BG2's Throne of Bhaal, she actually ends up teaming up with Drizzt to fight off an invasion to save multiple surface cities.
A big part of your initial meetings with Viconia in BG1 and 2 is saving her from prejudicial surfacers who assume she's just another evil Drow, as in BG1 she's being pursued by the Flaming Fist and in BG2 a group of angry townsfolk are trying to burn her at the stake. So seeing them turn around and just turn her into another evil manipulative Drow feels extremely wrong, given her previous characterization and character development. It feels like whoever wrote her storyline literally met her, talked to her for like one conversation and assumed that she was always like that and hated her, especially given how Minsc and Jaheira talk about her in BG3.
Someone can change over the span of over 100 years? Who knew?!
Get over it.
I've heard that this is canon from WotC, so I'm not sure how much input Larian had here.
@@1wayroad935 Someone can have some gripes with your favorite game and discuss them in an adult manner? Who knew?!
Get over it.
@@1wayroad935 gEt oVeR iT. Sounds like someone who never play previous games and had it easy compared to some of us who wanted a great continuation of the story. If not for the success of the previous 2 games, Baldur's Gate won't even be a thing and you probably never heard of it until it gone mainstream with the bear scene. Get the f out of this series you bandwagon s**m
Viconia is unlucky that she got bad character treatment but you won't hear mainstream fans complaining about it because she's someone from a game of 20 years ago. If she's someone like Joel from TLOU whose game is in a recent era, you would see the same outrage from fans just like how Naughty Dog did him in the 2nd game
@@abitdodgy2844 Gatekeepers gonna gatekeep, it seems. How about you try not sounding like a boomer who's mad over the success of the third game. Viconia turns evil over the course of the module that the BG series is based on, that's canon fact and predates the video games, so sorry that your waifu bait doesn't meet your delusions.
Viconia and Sarevok had returned to their evil ways! Go for the eyes, Boo!
Real shame. Its kind of boring to see a villain turn good then turn evil again.
@@evilmiera It's kind of depressing to see people who clearly never cared about those characters bring them back to life.. just to butcher their stories. I'm kinda shocked how Larian thought this is a good idea.
@@DarkWhite-t I don't think it's a butchering so much as it's kind of lazy. They did alright with Jaheira and Minsc.
@@evilmiera yeah, most likely accidently butchering. Does it makes it better? No.
Jaheira and Minsc are fine, I agree.
For a game with many positives, the handling of returning characters is... mixed.
They largely seemed to have lifted the characters from their introductions and ignored most the development. It works fine with Minsc and Jaheira. Sarevok, arguably? It doesn't really make sense that a good Gorion's Ward would just let Evil!Sarevok run around. Either redeem him or replant him in the ground.
Viconia though? She flees the Underdark because she wouldn't kill a child and Lolth's pissed. In BG1 she's found fleeing guards for presumably false accusations. Her party conflicts are never started by her. In BG2 she's running again because when she tried to settle down she got jumped and left for dead then killed them in self-defense. If you look at her character and not her cleric required alignment, she was more Neutral-Rude with the odd vicious streak than actually Neutral-Evil.
So, even with her initial characterization, she didn't act like she did now. I find it hard to see her as the same character, different VA notwithstanding.
Well they really nailed the portrayal of Minsc
I really don't understand why Minsc and Jaheira dislikes Viconia so much? She did not done anything bad during BG1+2...
Shes sharran. Let's be honest here. Worshipping shar is generally bad. Shes trying to destroy the world
I heard there was some retconning involved on WotC's side. The results most likely wasn't anything good
People are getting their panties in a twist because "ThAt'S nOt My ViCoNiA!" add or replace legacy character name as appropriate.
You can't write for player choice, if Vic was redeemed she DIES in her ending of BG2 Jaheria can leave or be killed by the Bhaalspawn in 1 and 2 Minsc is not immune to player shenanigans.
People have a hard time separating their fantasy that the game allows and the developers choices.
Vic leaving Lolth for Shar is probably a mercy considering even if she wasn't doing shady shit she was strung up and on the verge of being burned at the stake in BG2 there is no normal life for Vic without a way to protect herself why not the goddess of secrets to hide from Lolth
@@ongoingprocessfailed She dies only if you romanced her and stayed as mortal with her.
Same with the allignment change, only if romanced.
In canon Bhaal's spawn romanced Jaheira.
Viconia canon ending is travels, saves the elf city once more with Drizzt. Getting recognised by elven Qeen and getting a medal.😊
Establishment of Shar sect, later they tried to kill her, she obliterates them... and get admonished by Shar.
She was never an evil like other evil characters. From her stories:
She kills only in selfdefense.
Didn't sacrifice a child to Loth, had to flee and Shar was selected, bc She had to.
In my opinion She got stuck with evil as a Drow. But her conduct. Like saving a beggar from being punished by Guards in Athkatla makes her a neutral.
@@ongoingprocessfailed Even if you redeem Vic zero percent at all her baseline personality still wouldn't condone her actions in bg3 its shit writing either by Larian or by WOTC stop your BS
why does she look so old? I know this is 100 years later but drow live to be like 700 and she looked quite young in her bg2 portrait.
She may have looked young, but she very much was not. She was over 600 years old when you encounter her in the original series.
@@Spotastic9 Where was it ever stated?
@mc_rysiek5277 It states that in the Baldur's Gate wiki, but now I'm not so sure. We do know that she is likely well over 100 when she enters the scene because the time that she tells you about needing to sacrifice an infant if you romance her in BG2, would have been close to 100 years before the events of BG1. A test like that would be a test to determine if someone is truly an adult in the drow world, and drow don't become adults until their 40s or 50s. BG3 happens roughly 100 years after the end of BG2, so I would say she is at least in the 250 years old range then. Really should not be looking that old, then, unless something about Shar corrupted her looks.
@@Spotastic9 No, it doesn't, I've checked her entire entry on BG Wiki, and there's nothing of the sort. I've even checked her entry on the Forgotten Realms Wiki, still nothing.
House DeVir has been destroyed in 1297 DR, 69 years before the events of BG1 (1368). On average, an acolyte enters Arach-Tinilith at the age of 40, and spends 50 years learning. Meaning Viconia would be, at least, around 159 years old at the time of BG1, and around 283 at the time of BG3.
@@mc_rysiek5277 Check the wiki again. Look at the frequently asked questions on her entry. But yeah, around 300 sounds about right.
Honestly, This game basically assasinated Viconia's character, yeah shes evil but the is not a 1 dimensional cult leader. Plus she can be some what redeemed in BG2. Even if they wanted to bring her back as a villian, could they not make her a more interesting one? You could replace her with any priest of Shar and it would change nothing.
Minthara basically insults all of House DeVir. It's hilarious
Make sense considering the House DeVir fall from grace some centuries ago.
@@dantedragocuore 200 years ago, on the night Drizzt was a newborn baby.
@@LightStreak567 thanks, i have a doubt about the exact date.
@@dantedragocuore I know the exact date House DeVir was destroyed. 1297 DR. That's 16 years after the Icewind Dale game, 15 years before the Icewind Dale 2 game, 71 years before Baldur's Gate 1, 72-73 years before Baldur's Gate 2, 75 years before Neverwinter Nights, 77 years before Neverwinter Nights 2 and Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance, 78 years before Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance 2, and 196 before Baldur's Gate 3.
Viconia and Vizeran = Joestar family technique
Valas = "Break a leg, I've got several to spare."
Alton = "MY FACE _ASPOL- MELT! ...... then ASPLODE"
Ginafae = "The Zak got my tongue"
And on top of all that, Matron Mother Baenre (Who is probably Minthara's Grandmother or GreatX? Grandmother?) basically summoned Malice to the Baenre compound to personally congratulate her on a job well done like the next day.
So, yeah. The spite is justified, if a little old.
Bit of a shame they didn't go with the version of Viconia that turned "Neutral" in BG2 :(
Alas, Viconia only turned Neutral if you romanced her. Meaning that if she were Neutral, that would mean the canon plot was the OG Bhaalspawn wifed her and had a kid with her, based on their epilogue.
Not that I would object to that in the slightest, as that was my ideal ending. But it does interfere with the intended 'we aren't committing to a specific ending' angle they took with the OG Bhaalspawn's story.
But she dies in throne of bhaal if she gets neutral
@@konstantinriumin2657 I mean, she dies in almost all her endings. lol
@@Terralventhe Why would they refer to the canon plot ? It's Baldur's Gate 3, they could let us import ou save file from Baldur's Gate 2, or at least let us pick the events like in Mass Effect with 'Genesis'. If they don't want to make a sequel and just use the lore of forgotten realms, then they can name their game something else.
@@WallySketch I mean, for one, Larian was forced to make most of their narrative decisions based on what Wizards of the Coast decided was "hard-locked canon." Unfortunately, that also means that all of the BG3 narratives are not derived from the previous games, but instead the godawful books where the protagonist was a dumb edgelord called ""Abdel Adrian"", and the author killed off Khalid and Minsc in the first five chapters because he didn't like them in the game, while turning Jaheira into a vapid bimbo who keeps falling over like a cheerleader in a horror movie, and who wants to jump Abdel's bones -- only to be forced to bring Minsc back in the BG2 novel because the game made it so. He ditched Imoen at every turn and.. look, the novels were just really, REALLY bad. lol
So we were never really going to get a 'faithful to the previous two games' sequel in terms of the narrative from the getgo.
Why not Grey DeLisle's voice?she voiced Viconia even in dragonspear...
They didn't bring Jim Cummings back either
@@TheAutisticBrony They didn't bring a single voice actor back from the original games. There's more than just Viconia, Jaheria, and Minsc. It was pretty clear they didn't care to.
May be that they didn't have the ability, may be that they couldn't afford to. All in all, I think these folks do well. My least favorite is Mercer, he's been in so much, I can hear him through anything.
@@thenameless3271 I refuse to believe they didn't have the ability or resources to rehire at least one original voice actor. This had to have been on purpose.
@@TheAutisticBrony To be fair, Jaheira's original voice actress effectively dropped off the face of the earth--finding her is likely more difficult than it's worth. Jim Cummings is a "controversial" figure as of late given allegations. As for Grey DeLise? Could just be she wasn't interested, or she didn't have the time. She's a busy woman with a number of possibilities and roles to act for.
I can really identify with Minsc when it comes to Viconia and Sarevok. Both were characters who made a ton of mistakes and were given a second chance at life.... then proceeded to utterly waste it.
Viconia actually had a very solid character arc in BG2 that transformed her into a hero, and no at the end of Throne of Bhaal, she actually becomes a hero who teams up with Drizzt to save multiple surface cities after the events of the story. Her characterization in BG3 is actually an enormous betrayal of how she was portrayed in BG2. She literally refused to serve Lolth because she was asked to sacrifice a child, so seeing her turn around and basically do the same with Shadowheart in BG3 is the exact opposite of her original character.
@@Jenn-lq9yubut she’s dead. She wouldn’t be in this game at all if she redeemed herself.
negative, even in her non-romance ending it describes that she worked with Drizzt Do'urden to save Suldanessalar from the Zhentarim. She was giving the highest honor of the Seldarine to which she bowed without emotion and then left. It then states that her fate remains unknown. You can go watch a video of her non-romance ending to verify that what I'm saying is accurate, it only takes like 30 seconds.@@marvelgirlxvii
@@marvelgirlxvii That was the non-alignment shift ending that Jenn was referencing. Even when Viconia remains Evil, she still turns out to not be that awful of a person. Wizards of the Coast purposely rewrote her epilogues to make her a worse person.
@@WhiteManOnCampus ya I did figure that out.
Well, there always are choices and consequences, Viconia.
Farewell, my old friend and my new enemy.
This isn't Viconia.
It's her mutated clone created in evil Larian labs.
@@Rzepik This is very much in line with Viconia in 1+2, without gooing through her character ark in these games... Which she canonically didnt, since her character Development only happens if you romance her. After which she dies. Which she didnt, obviously. Add to that stewing for 100 Years under Shars influence, and voila.
@@centimanj8916 Nope.
You must be misremembering things.
1. First of all, her romance doesn't have to change her alignment.
2. And the most important part - her non-romance epilogue is the heavily implied redemption epilogue. FFS, she joins Drizzt to fight bad guys. And she has a bit of falling out with Shar after the temple massacre (here retconned to "it was Shar's orders).
I really wish I could have seen Aerie again. Even Mazzy and Keldorn got mentioned (by Minsc) but his new witch got forgotten.
He mentioned her once in a dialog
@@siektv1714 I must have missed that one. Shame.
He referenced her as his witch.
In the room with all the plaques mentioning Mazzy, Keldorn, and Jan there’s one about Aerie
@@chowmeower7294 Does it say anything about her fate or where she is now? (As an avariel elf, she would be very much still alive by the time of BG3.)
This battle there was the hardest of all the game for me. Until I used a globe of invulnerability. Quite useful when there is so much ennemies.
darkness spam was broken in early patches. daylight supposed to counter the darkness spell but you cannot fucking cast anything in the darkness because your caster char tries to walk for casting.
indeed was the hardest encounter in the game for me.
lae'zels comment about Boo/space hamsters changed so much in my believe about minsc since bg1
Everybody is wondering how Minsc can be alive after all the time, but nobody is questioning Boo XD
In my BG2 party all 3 were working together.
Jaheira was one of the very few companions Viconia actually respected while Jaheira wasn't Lawful Good and appreciated balance in all things. Now Jaheira immediately insults her while Viconia doesn't bite back. They were in the same party together for 2 games. It doesn't feel right that there's nothing else.
Agreed. Jaheira had a shell you had to crack. She didn't open herself so easily in BG2. To her it was a demonstration of emotional strength and she saw the same in Viconia which made her respect her. She appreciated Viconia's straightforward manners. Jaheira was more annoyed by the good aligned Aerie lol.
Viconia is ALWAYS in my (good:) party :) Trough both Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 :) Surface-dwellers can be so stupid. Lil alurl! For Shar!
look how they massacred our girl. I mean, I have romanced Viconia in my playthrough of BG2 and than ascended. The Viconia I knew was non evil and switched from worshiping Shar. They could have shown her a bit egoistic and manipulative, but this? Fuck.
She switched from worshipping Shar to getting killed by Lolth in the good ending
@@MethoswiccaOnly if she was romanced, non-romanced Viconia eventually found herself fighting alongside Drizzt and his group.
@@Methoswicca only if she was romanced and main character chose NOT to ascent. In my case I have ascended and Viconia was romanced with her redemption arc complete.
In her evil ending she leaves Shar too.
Or at least has a faling-out with her, it's not clear.
But I mean, c'mon, she joins drizzt and saves an elven city, take a fookin hint larian.
simp
Jaheira: So i can give her a huge (Bear form)
Viconia's memories were altered here in the BG3 time; probably by Shar.
She's still the Viconia that Gorion's Ward have traveled with.
Everyone needs to go check Viconia's past in the Mirror of Memories.
Man...Viconia really hit the wall didn't she.
I saved her life in this quest, I still have to romance her in the previous parts of Baldur's Gate XD
I spared her, and Jaheira approved.
I never played bg1 or bg2 so I can't say how well this game does fanservice but having read the book on miniature giant space hamsters I do love that I was able to identify Boo correctly as such. I'm honestly surprised they actually existed but Boo does have a way of surprising people I suppose.
I never thought of recruiting minsc before entering the house of grief! this game just keeps on giving lmao
I miss anomen from baldurs gate 2. That guy was funny.
and Jan Jansen. Needs more Turnips
he was a lot less funny if you "failed" his questline. Guy turns literally into a psycho.
@Alienoiable he was super annoying and arrogant, but I liked to laugh at him. But yes you want to do his quest line correct, mostly to give him that wisdom boost
Goodbye my love
To quote Dimitri from Fire Emblem Three Houses, “Is this some kind of Twisted Joke?!”
Kinda weird that Viconia looks old seeing as drows live for 700 to 1000 years while Jaheira a half-elf who lives just over 200 years makes sense to look older seeing as it's been over a hundred years.
Jaheira.. Do you really mean to give her a hug? Around the shoulders or your hands around her neck? 😂
Ok, who else is upset they didn't bring back Jim Cummings for Minsc?
He's 70 years old. I think the issue was Minsc is 35 or so in game.
He's retired and didn't want to do it
He's retired. And maybe meToo'd by his wife.
@@Synthonym That is not the case. They never contacted him. He recently voiced Minsc again for Siege of Dragonspear.
@@Leonson1 Siege of Dragonspear came out in 2016 do you know what year it is dude?
For Shar! Shululul!
Damn, Viconia. I saved you from being burned alive in the city square once, and this is how you repay me?
Lolth weaves in mysterious ways i guess
Oops, I didn't sit on the bench and went straight to the dungeon skipping this conversation.
Larian messed up with Viconia. They made a good game, but they messed up with her.
Honestly after seeing how troublesome or useless the gods are the only God ill follow is Boo. Minsc is truly smarter then the rest of us to do it
Отчего Викония постарела, она ведь эльф они 1000 лет живую. На момент оригинала она была вполне молодой. Помотала её жизнь.
Шар - богиня утрат, тащемта (а также геометрическая фигура😆). Вот юность и утратилась.
Потому что это не Викония.
Не выглядит сильно старой
I did NOT play the first 2 Baldur gates games but knowing viconia USED to be an ally makes me hesitate to kill her, but I still want her shield, it’s possible to knock her, loot the shield, do a long rest and get the “spare her” dialogue or something like that?
What's the opposite of fan service? Because that's what they did to Viconia...
Justice for Viconia! Damn this sucks
Shadowheart smells of milldew, confirmed. If Minsc says so, it must be true.
Thing is..we have bg2 and viconia still isnt like this from what ive recalled.
In her default non romance ending, she straight up saves an entire elven city from destruction and abandons shar. this is straight up a retcon that borders on hatefic
@@stannisbaratheon_1 Dont worry, people who dont know what BG 1-2 is, still have 100 reasons to tell you that the game is a masterpiece, that act 3 is good, and game is not in EA.
@@kharngotrekson1726i'm sorry nostalgia blind you, but the game is a masterpiece, act 3 could have been better and it's not EA
@@stame4109 Well if nostalgia blinds me against a game with homosexuals on every step instead of good writing im all in for it.
@@stannisbaratheon_1WotC changed the lore, which is what Larian was using. WotC can't keep a consistent narrative to save its own skin
I kinda wish if you were evil you could recruit her. Still, really cool to see her again!
I feel like they did Viconia dirty - she should have been more of a badass. She just seemed like a jaded old priest who went full lame villain.
Ah come on. Dirty? She's alive.
What about Dynaheir, Xzar, Khalid, Garrick and many many many other Partymembers of Baldurs Gate 1 that died horrible in Baldurs Gate 2? Viconia is neraby greacful in her place in comparison
@@DasKame SPAMSPAMSPAMLOVELYSPAMSPAMSPAM. Nothing graceful about character assassination, and nothing bad about a good death.
@@ohauss Khalid? Dynaheir? "GOOD Death?" They died OFF-SCREEN. Thats POOCHIE-LEVEL of "Development" XD
Its Nice to ser their reaction. Thing is...If you get to Baldurs Gate before solving that part of his personal Quest It becomes easy to explore the Dungeon. Act 3 should let you get more than 12 since the last missions doesnt grant anything more than enchanted itens. Money and experience doesnt matter in the last act...
I think cutting things off at 12 was a very deliberate decision. 13 is when casters get access to 7th level spells and thus things like Teleport, Forcecage, Planeshift, and Simulacrum. All things that I can imagine would drive the Devs absolutely nuts. So while I too would like if there were a couple more character levels, I totally get why they stopped where they did.
Nothing a little modding can't fix.
I do feel sad about the route they took with her in bg3 but I guess her being commited to evil would be the cannon version. Besides im assuming they also did it because the evil drow companion role was already taken by Minthara
man they really trashed one of the best characters in franchise
oh boy a video showcasing 3 Baldur's Gate legacy characters all interacting with each other! i loved these three characters in baldur's gate 1 and 2 and putting aside my personal journeys with them, i think this is a neat little callback even if it doesn't fit precisely with the romance route (which i couldn't do because i made a female MC anyway)! i sure hope the comments section is respectful, openminded, and has normal opinions about women and LGBTQ+ people
She looks way older than she should.
Viconia was already hundreds of years old in bg1/2. She was a whole ass priestess of Lolth before becoming a cleric of Shar.
@@ce5122 Do we know any dates for certain from lore or so?
How in the nine hells is Minsc looking younger then both the elves??
As far as i recall, he spent a lot of the time turned to stone
He was petrified for hundreds of years.
It seems that a century long mud bath does great things for the skin.
i love that fact that many many many people say "Wait! MINSC SHOULD BE OLD BY THAT TIME!"
and nobody had a Problem with the hamster surviving 100 Years XD
@@DasKame miniature space hamsters are long-lived compared to their distant worldly hamster cousins
Why don't they make a remaster of BG 1 and 2 with this graphics engine? Ufff I buy it without hesitation.
How old are minsc here and why he is still alive here...
He was turned into stone some wild magic saved him before the story of bg3 there is comics of it
He and Boo spent 100 years as a statue.
i adore that everybody Questions Minsc Age, but nobody Boo's... Space Hamster can be eternal i guess
Lol for some reason despite having a neutral expression, your halfling looks so petty af torturing Minsc and Boo with Viconia’s name.
The woman who abandoned Lolth and lead to the destruction of her house and the effective death of a brother she loves because she refused to sacrifice a child in a deities name, is now perfectly ok with kidnapping, torturing, and brainwashing a child in Shar's name, despite even in her own default non romance ending of baldurs gate 2 she has a falling out with shar and goes down the route of a stoic antihero, who saves an elven city from destruction with a very famous Drow hero. They don't act, look, or sound like Viconia. And could very easily just be a generic villain aside from the name. quite frankly Larian can fuck themself for getting a character this wrong and conveniently sliding into the last act of the game knowing full well people would've torched them if this was in the early access.
What you describe could very well not happen if you never saved her (she dies, or survives through her own wiles presumably further scarred and embittered) or the PC didn't work their azz off to redeem her, she's EVIL on her character sheet, though of course she might say what you want to hear and what she needs to say if you're her easiest ticket out of some repeat torches and pitchforks events.
Her default ending has her falling out with shar and saving an elven city from destruction before wandering off on her own. And she was only "evil" due to her survivor instincts. She even openly states she'd support you as your first cleric if you go the divine route of bg2@@childesinthev.761
wasn't Larian decision it was WotC
Jaheira is literally dead as per WOTC "Canon" that excuse doesnt work and if the choice was to butcher them comedically or not put them in, thats on Larian@@IllJoy
@@stannisbaratheon_1 Larian had zero decisions on the lore, it was all dictated by Wotc, INCLUDED RETCONS. If you want to rage at someone, rage at them
Bg3 is a sequel in name only, its a larian game through and through.
Why the hell she arguably looks older than Jaheira?
Why the hell even bother to bring her back as some generic villain?
Pretty sure this is part of stuff that wasn't elaborated on as much such as Karlach to a level. Plus BG3 is not a direct sequel (it's a fair bit removed to allow it breathe as its own title w/ callbacks like this interspiced).
@@theepicduck6922 Just some good ol' memberberries that don't make any sense if you think about them for more than a second...
I must be living in a purgatory as a punishment for all the laughing at trekkies I did.
So Baldur's Gate 3 takes place close to a century after the events of Throne of Bhaal. Minsc got turned to a statue sometime after ToB. I don't think they ever gave Jaherria or Viconia their age canonically during the Bhaalspawn Saga.
Ah come on, remember what terrible Fates had most of the BG1 Characters in BG2?
@@DasKame True.
But the difference is they didn't have much going on in BG1, so it's MUCH less annoying.
I wanna see Boo scolding the gods.
I forget is viconia the drow you save in the city after you escape your captor in the beginning?
Nah
In BG2? Yes, she's about to be burned at the stake in the Temple District, IIRC. In BG1 she is being chased by people and you similarly can bail her out.
Lolth has nothing for gratitude
Ah the OG drowifu
kinda suck that, full evil team in BG2 is great.
What is that first scene? I only met Viconia in the house of grief for the battle.
So many simps in the comments can't get over Viconia losing the title of Evil Drow Mommy(c) to Minthara. Baenre send their regards
Just remember BG3 is not a sequel to BG2. It's an alternate history in the same setting. Basically if the Bhaalspawn never did anything (EDIT: I mean to say never ascended, they still did stuff "live their life") and just kinda lived their life. In this timeline Viconia founds the Sharite cult she made post BG2 and keeps it going.
In BG2 if the Bhaalspawn doesn't romance viconia she founds then kills her sharite cult after they betray her, then saves an elven city with Drizz't Do'Urden. Implying her alignment changes regardless of the romance, just off vs on screen.
What Sarevok is in the game and Jahaeria will mention that he was redeemed, only for him to go back to Bhaal decades afterwards. That kinda means Charname has to exist of Sarevok was brought back to life as good-aligned
@@ethanduncan1646 Never wrote the Bhaalspawn didn't exist. Just that in BG3 what everyone did is very different than the canon of BG1&2. An alternate universe take.
Which means that Sarevok can still be redeemed but how it happened is arbitrary. Could be the Bhaalspawn sure, but ultimately the canon ending in BG2 didn't happen in BG3 and what the BG2 characters have done after is different than the BG2 game epilogues.
@@ecklesezekiel9804it is NOT an alternate universe take, it is just Wizard of the Coast forcing their own version of canon unto this, they have been trying to do this ever since they release the “Murder in Baldur’s Gate” module all those years ago.
@@marcialhd A retcon then? Can you link me where BG3 is the official canon now? It's so different I thought it must have been.
@@ecklesezekiel9804 have you not seen all the amount of products made by wizards of the coast in recent years that are directly related with Baldur’s Gate?, from the aforementioned module “Murder in Baldur’s Gate”, the module “Descent into Avernus”, the Magic the Gathering expansion in which all origin characters (except the dark urge) from BG3 were released as cards, to Baldur’s Gate 3 itself, that’s a huge amount of time and investment to create interest on a product, only to disregard it moving forward?… it just doesn’t makes sense, so yeah this is canon until WotC declares it not to be (which doesn’t seems to be the case for now… or ever really considering how good the game is doing).
Plus it wouldn’t be the first time they did a retcon, first they retconned the games to canonize the (awful) novels, only to walk back on that and canonize the version of the story on “Murder in Baldur’s Gate”, so yeah they have done it before (despite people generally hating it) and they are likely to do it again.
Well now that I know Viconia is in the game, I gotta play it now!
Just don’t get your hopes up regarding Vic herself. You’ll thank me latter.
All I can say I am glad they didn't bring back Anomen. At least he is out of their reach.
Huh? Where does that scene take place? I first met her in the Shar Temple where I had to fight her.
Reminder that misc is English pain
Not my Vicky
I wonder which bg1 and bg2 might still be alive
So, Jaheira is still attractive, (though a lot more masculine than 1 or 2) but what the HELL did they do to Viconia? Why is the modern industry so insistent on removing attractive women?
What are you talking about? She's got an attractive build, revealing attire and long white blonde hair. That's all the box ticks for the typical gamer bro thirst trap
Given how Viconia is arguably the best character in BG2, going so far as to have her own romance theme be a variation of the main theme, this depiction by Larian felt really low.
Now let’s be honest: I know people are all hyped up with the new BG3 and all, and while I like it too, I don’t think Larian is the best at storytelling. Sure, the game is fun due to its sandboxy nature. But the quality of writing is only ok, and it really shows here.
But I don’t think it compares to the stuff that BioWare or Obsidian put out there when it comes to writing. Just go check Kreia from Sw: KOTOR2.
a necromancer... how is it?
Why Joe Rogan is in this game?
i love this !!!
I hate it!
how did you get her to show up to camp
What is to talk to Minsc [and Boo] with Speak with Animals on?
Protagonist will say he can't understand Boo even with SpeakWithAnimals
DunDunDUN!
@@slitor thats because Boo isnt an animal but an alien. Speak with animals doesnt work on aliens.
@@Kill0rGurke and Lae Zel said that Boo's race exist - just not the miniature part (miniature giant space hamsters)
they're really trying to F with our minds LOL
Trully i don't like that devs added characters from prev bg games here
Baldurs Gate 2 said:
Hold my Beer, i can Wipe out half of the Cast of Baldurs Gate 1 in many devious ways....
People have a hard time separating their fantasy that the game allows and the developers choices.
Vic leaving Lolth for Shar is probably a mercy considering even if she wasn't doing shady shit she was strung up and on the verge of being burned at the stake in BG2 there is no normal life for Vic without a way to protect herself why not the goddess of secrets to hide from Lolth.
Minsc was brought back in lore in the Forgotten Realm mythos years before not as a ploy to shoehorn him into the game.
Honestly, its nice to see Jaheira vibing, she's changed a lot but in ways I enjoyed.
People are getting their panties in a twist because "ThAt'S nOt My ViCoNiA!" add or replace legacy character name as appropriate.
You can't write for player choice, if Vic was redeemed she DIES in her ending of BG2 Jaheria can leave or be killed by the Bhaalspawn in 1 and 2 Minsc is not immune to player shenanigans.
@@ongoingprocessfailedEven if she isn’t romanced she still in a way redeems herself. She rebels against Shar and saves the elven city of Suldanessellar alongside Drizzt, she is then awarded with the highest honor by Queen Ellesime. BG3 literally had to retcon parts of that and make her character do a complete 180 back to being a stupid fanatic who didn’t learn a thing who just gets killed in game within minutes of meeting her again.
Here because I missed all these cutscenes because Shadowheart's plot got bugged way before this in the shadowlands. We managed to free the Nightsong long before discovering what it was, and then when we backtracked to try to fill in what we missed it was bugged and broken because the Nightsong wasn't there. Shadowheart was a schizo ever since, and many dialogues never triggered.
Man! I just hate it when RPGs stablish a canon. It always makes me want to play the previous games less.
One thing i am not happy about is how they made Viconia look. She is a drow, they live a very long a time so she needn't look as old as she does. Also, she is supposed to be stunningly beautiful, she looks like Courtney Love on a bad day here.
I dislike what they did with her character as well but I think the aging is fine. Radiation in the Underdark shortens their lifespans, Drow are long lived compared to Humans, short lived compared to regular Elves. If I remember correctly anyway, mostly going off the early Drizzt books where Matron Baenre was like 800 and ancient in Drow years. With that in mind, and I think 125ish years between Bg2 and 3, Viconia would be middle aged in terms of Drow years. I also don't like what they did with the character but her physical appearance is fairly accurate at least. Unless Drow live longer now, in which case damn they just butchered the character all around. Great game but if they wanted an old evil companion to fill this role Id of sooner taken Edwin or Kagain. Hell, Montaron and Xzar even.
@@purpleparadise536 I disagree. Being older is one thing, but her looks are not like they should be. There are plenty of middle aged women/people who are beautiful, especially if they were beautiful when they were younger. Also, 125 is not middle aged for a drow. It may not be as young as another elf but it's still too young to have her look this age, especially considering how beautiful she was. She looks like the drow version of a strung out, drug addict.
@@purpleparadise536 Drow ARE elves! The two races are equally long-lived; Drow society is merely more conducive to untimely demises. A the very least, Viconia ought to have looked younger than Jaheira any day, seeing how the latter is a half-elf.
Viconia didnt age well...
Виконию перекасабланило
this game obliterated Viconia and Saeravok , dont bring back characters to destroy their characters , holy crap
So....remember BG1?
And how Many of the Heroes died gruesome in BG2?
Things never changes i guess XD
@@DasKamewriting a character dead and bringing back a returning character in name only, with none of their original personality are two different things.
At least they didn't bring back Aerie 🤮🤮🤮
@@everinghall8622 WRITING a Character Dead??? They killed MANY of the BG1 Heroes IN the BG2 Game wich you can witness.
They shat on all Drows in this Game and they still didn't finish it. I'm surprised they didn't have a Drizzt Cameo only to have them throw a Huge Rock on him like Wild E. Coyote. Cringe Larian Stuff, just Lazy like a lot of Stuff that isn't acknowledged by Crazy Fanboys.
They butchered Viconia in BG3 they made her a plain villian - she's not the character she was in BG1 & 2.
Aw come on: How Many BG1 Characters died terrible in Bg2?
i remember at least 5.
@@DasKame Spamming that doesn't make it the argument you think it is.
@@DasKame I loved BG1 but to be fair - the companions were not very fleshed out beside Jaheira or Minsk. Or do you even remember Eldoth or Safana?
@@naljiaskal5004 Nah, but i remember Khalid and Dynaheir and i was VERY pissed the "Poochied" both Off Screen in BG2. So i don'T Mind to fight Viconia (and let her Escape at the end)
@@naljiaskal5004bg1 was only mentioned because viconia was from bg1, her big character arc and story was from bg2 which is a far better game.
Это не Викония. Это какая то левая дроу присвоишая себе её имя.
so Abdel never really romanced Viconia and Jaheira?
Whats the history of Viconia? was she orginally an evil character?
She was less crazy backstab-happy than Drow nobility was typically portrayed as (or at least that's how she presented herself when around a non-evil PC) but yeah she wasn't a good person.
I think Abdel Adrian was meant to have romanced Jaheira, so it seems like their going for "generally vague sequel canon" rather than official Forgotten Realms canon.
You can also make a pretty strong argument for Viconia having not been evil, or at least not like this.