The Gollum internal dialogue is such a beautiful and heartbreaking scene, but it feels like it is a recognition that even tho he wishes it differently somehow, he has already crossed the rubicon.
Denethor wasn't a bad guy. He was a single man that did his best in an untenable situation and it finally broke him. He wasn't weak, because a weaker person would have broken much sooner.
@@Enerdhil He lost his wife early, he lost his son recently. He was proud, I will agree to that, but he was also regal, and he felt totally responsible for his people. He was a good leader that was pushed beyond his limit.
@@kevinpotts123 So ...Do you actually think that Denethor's pride did not cause him to gaze into the Palantir, knowing that he would have a struggle session with Sauron every time? Pride caused him to take chances that eventually resulted in him losing his mind.
You know, there's some facts that, once you know them, there's a part of you that's just... in horrible pain, for the rest of your mortal days. I think this is one of those. So... thanks? 🤣🤣😭
Can you cite where this is, about the tear stains? I've just spent a while looking for it in HoMe 8 and not finding it. Would like to see it in Christopher's own words.
@@GirlNextGondor On perhaps a cheerier note, I've watched too many reaction videos to the movie version. One of the most memorable comments was someone writing that his small daughter, watching the movie for the first time and seeing Gandalf and three eagles approaching the unconscious Frodo and Sam, said "Look! Gandalf brought an eagle for Gollum!" I think that would make the Professor smile.
@@larrykuenning5754 apparently this isn't all true. Tolkien himself mentioned in letter 241 having "blotted the pages with tears" when writing about Sam and Frodo in the field of Cormallen. According to letters 72 and 91, it was C. S. Lewis who cried to the Gollum scene. Finally, in a recount of Tolkien's visit to Holland, it says he himself admits to weeping when writing the scene. Carl Hostetter might have mentioned the manuscript part too, but can't find much about it. So, to recount: Tolkien admited to being moved by many scenes; he admits to crying to one of them and staining the pages of it in a letter; he admits to Jack crying to the scene in question in another letter; he admits to crying to the scene in question in a piblic event, and if Holstetter actually talked about it, it might explain why I had confused him with Christopher in the first place.
@@therealpatagonianpancakes: Thanks for the Letters reference. Looking up 72 and 91, it looks to me that what moved Lewis to tears was "the last chapter" of Book IV, i.e. "The Choices of Master Samwise" which is later than the scene where Gollum nearly repents.
It seems to me that Tolkien found a way to use his love of ancient things lost, and turn it into the skill he sought to write his characters. These moments of near-redemptions are 'the beautiful', lost as surely as those who have perished to time. Glimpsed imperfectly, desired, and thought over.
That is a really neat take I hadn't considered. The idea that a missed opportunity is a sort of 'unexplored vista' of what could have been... coupled with the idea that to repent would mean *going back* to some version of what these corrupted figures used to be in a past that now *seems* impossibly distant - which is something else the text emphasizes at every opportunity 😆
There's an even more agonizing corollary here: by stopping Gollum's redemption, did Sam make it so that Frodo had to leave Middle-earth (and him) because after Gollum's betrayal he believed himself to be similarly irredeemable?
@@GirlNextGondor Personally I believe that Frodo was 'doomed' to leave as soon as he was stabbed in the dell at Weathertop. At least, that sealed his fate and from there there was no return. Though I wonder what could've been, had he returned to the Shire and someone else accomplished destroying the Ring, so that he didn't have to carry it for so long, towards the heart of darkness, it's power constantly growing. At the point where he's stabbed he has already been safeguarding the Ring, whose power slowly waxed over the years, even if he did not use it. It still 'preserved' him, as it did Bilbo. I wonder what could've been, but in the end it just makes me sadder. The ending always makes me shed a tear. Of all the members of the Fellowship, Frodo in my eyes deserved most a calm, peaceful life. At least in Valinor he was granted that, and that is a comforting thought. Still, it's always a sorrowful to realise that Frodo gave up a happy life in his beloved Shire for others. This will always make him the greatest, most tragic heroic figure of the story.
I don't think that's true. I don't think it really reflects his Christian worldview. The idea that God "predestines" people to condemnation is mostly, to my knowledge, only a thing in the few Calvinist denominations of Prorestantism (Presbyterians, Reformed, and some Baptists) and not reflective of Tolkien's own Catholic tradition that values the importance of free will. Important to the understanding of Providence is that although God does not ordain that people commit evil in order that his greater purposes be accomplished , like Gollum failing to he redeemed, thus destroying the Ring, God's Providence works in such a way that his will can be accomplished without violating people's freedom to make their own choices for good or evil. The evil people do can be turned around and used to accomplish good, even though it would've been preferable for them to make the right choices in the first place. Gollum's failure, then, may have resulted in Sauron's defeat, but his redemption wouldn't have inherently prevented Sauron's defeat. If anything, it could have still happened regardless. The only thing Gollum's choices changed in the grand scheme of things was the amount of suffering Frodo, Sam, and Gollum himself had to endure to get to the finish line, but it was providential eucatastrophe that secured the ultimate victory.
I appreciate that 🥰 though any particular insight is, I'm afraid,. mostly due to the unconscionable amounts of time I spend Thinking About Elves when I should be, for instance, filing my taxes....
This is, quickly, my favorite of your videos. My sadness at Gollum’s losing his last chance at repentance was in me from my first reading as an early teen, and from that, it disturbed me to see “hero Sam” being (or being used) as a tool to challenge him…
Something I didn't find a good place for, but think is *really* important to challenging the tired 'Middle-earth was meant to be a world of simplistic black-and-white morality' narrative, is a quote by Tolkien saying that Sam, an overall 'good' person who was mainly motivated by compassion, loyalty, and protectiveness, ended up doing something bad, and that he included this in part because it "seemed to me to be most like real life." Sam really is doing the best he can - which is pretty darn good! - but because he's not perfect (nor is anyone around him), he sometimes ends up causing harm anyway. That's haunting.
@@anni.68 Except Sam had every right to mistrust Gollum, as did most people who came upon him. You have to remember, he was banished from the Shire for murder, and had been known by that point as a vile thing hiding in the dark places in the world. You don't just trust a scorpion not to sting you, just because it says it won't.
@@mrbigglezworth42 Sure, but Frodo also had every right to mistrust Gollum, and Bilbo had a reason to kill Gollum. But they didn't, out of pity. Trying to help someone who's trustworthy is mere opportunism, true virtuous pity comes only when you help those that "don't deserve it". Frodo also had a right to refuse the Ring, but he took the more noble path.
Speaking on choices, what of the choice of forgiveness? It just makes me think that, say in the case of Manwë, he was said to be 'fooled' and released Melkor because he could not comprehend lies, but there is also consequence of choosing "right" when others do not do the same, etc...nor a point just a thought that popped up listening to this the first time around. What stuck with me the most after all this time was that it really made me think about Sam and how we just brush off his abbrassive attitude towards gollum because we see gullom not smeagol and can't fault his devotion to Frodo. But it also is remarkable to me that Tolkien devised this character who is so 'pure' but still has teh capacity to be cruel/hate which shows that nothing is without his shadow and how even those that are on the whole 'good' can still behave/make ill choices. Sometimes what determines how others, history, or even future choices, is really as much a matter of circumstance/time....
@@GirlNextGondor you have different takes than other Tolkien channels. You do far more than just history - you’re far more thoughtful. You seem to be an intellectual heir of sorts. Keep up the fabulous work.
You are touching on themes that make Tolkien's work such a treasure for those who take the time to discover them. These themes transcend generations and cultures, which is why Tolkien is so beloved all over the world by so many. Brilliant analysis, as usual. Well done!
Hearing these things makes me think that I need to reflect upon myself very deeply. Not only am I entertained by your channel I think I'm actually getting a bit of personal growth.
I... think I'm happy to hear that, but reluctant to take responsibility for it? Maybe you're just growing on your own 😉 and I just happen to be nearby? On the other hand, I frequently find that "researching a cool fun topic that will boost muh algorithms!" quickly turns into "I must personally strive to live a more decent and courageous life, lest I let (insert character) down" (the video on Creativity and Evil was one of those). So maybe it's just the subject matter that's edifying us both....
Because I am demonstrably obsessed with villainous ginger meow-meows, I will point out that Maedhros’s throwing himself and the Silmaril into the fires of the Earth is a similar self-sacrifice. Nobody is going to commit more kinslaying for *his* Silmaril, that’s for sure. Including him.
I found this channel last month. I have been a life long fan of Tolkien and I can say that this channel provides the most interesting and in depth analysis by far. I absolutely love it. Thank you so much!
@@GirlNextGondor Gobsmacked and humbled is my reaction. I had just written a short paragraph on the nature of Bombadil and was feeling quite pleased with myself. But this stuff may be over my head. :) Thank you for giving me something to puzzle over.
damn, Gollum stealing the ring from Frodo, and then thinking super hard, and then yeeting himself into a volcano, is one of the funniest images ive ever imagined, thank you for this!
Here's a good question why did Fëanor have so many children. Surely an immortal being would not have that many children. The only reason for having that many children is because you expect multiple of them to die. Having that many children when you are immortal means it's not going to take that long to overpopulate.
Most Elves did not have that many children and they usually only had children during a specific phase of their lives. I think the best explanation of why Fëanor had so many was he was an outlier. On the other hand, all but one of his children only outlived him by a few centuries and the one grandchild he had passed away without any children. The Fëanorians were good at finding ways to kill themselves off.
At the heart of these character's villainy was pride and arrogance. While they could change their behavior at certain points they could never really repent and achieve redemption. The humility of our heroes is what saved Middle Earth.
@@GirlNextGondor Agreed. Just found this channel today and it is excellent. Another poster mentioned Galadriel finally passing her test. "She was proud, strong, and self-willed" but when faced with the ultimate temptation she refused it. "I passed the test. I will diminish...and go into the West...and remain Galadriel."
Didn't realize I clicked on this within a minute of posting. Now my comment will be late. XD Thanks for the upload! I hadn't thought about how Sams remarks were the reason Gollum remained evil...
It's a pretty painful moment. He's trying to protect Frodo from Gollum and ends up triggering the opposite effect. To make matters worse he *does* eventually take pity on Gollum, but only after he's had to carry the Ring himself for a while 🤔
What a lovely video! But one small statement made me think… there is at least one character that really achieved redemption: Galadriel. She literally says: “I pass the test.” That was her moment at the moral event horizon, and she turns. When I read that for the first time, I still feel the same elation and relief of her character-growth. This was the clearest moment of redemption for a character. I would think there are more in the book.
First I really like your channel, it is very well done. So I will keep tuning in. I have an observation on the character of Denethor, and wonder what you think of it. I recall that Aragorn had served Denethor's father and that Denethor was jealous of him. Later as Steward using the Palantir, he would have recognized Aragorn and realized his lineage. To his mind, if Sauron is overthrown he is no long Steward because of Aragorn. But if Sauron wins, he is still overthrown and no longer steward. Either way, he is no longer steward. Could it be that it is this realization that his existence--which to him is to be steward no matter what--is over either way which leads to his hopelessness and suicide? It is a "what the heck" situation that you lose no matter what, so why try? In my life I have seen people in a no win situation just quit--a marriage, a job, a sports team, whatever--and Denethor strikes me as such a character. Anyway, keep up the great work here.
@@GirlNextGondor OSP did a wonderful precis of the various sources surrounding The Illad, along with some hilarious characterizations of Aggie at his boneheaded best: Odysseus: "You just can't help yourself can you!" Aggie: "Hey, I kidnapped her fair and square!" ua-cam.com/video/TLodQGpIpIs/v-deo.html
On the one hand you feel bad knowing that Gollum would die regardless of how the Quest of the Ring ended since his longevity is tied to the Ring itself and no matter how it's destroyed he cannot live without it in the literal sense. On the other hand Gandalf does explicitly say that Gollum wandered the lands looking for the Ring drinking blood and killing infants.
But Gollum (the real Geek), who is at least man-adjacent (he speaks Westron, for Eru's sake) is thus a cannibal. He's not the best choice to invite as entertainment at a kid's birthday party. Slinker the Ravenous Stinker......Yikes!@@Laucron
@@kevinrussell1144 He eats 'squeakers' under the Goblin kingdom. hes a child killer. " Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked!" "when we twisted that nassty young squeaker. "
That's a newly posted one from Jonathan Guzi! I loved it 😍 always a pleasure to see more evil Numenorean temple scenes and/Sauron calling down divine wrath.
The Dagor Dagorath Prophecy says that in the end even Feanor will be redeemed. Which given how emphasis there is on him rejecting it during his mortal life, sounds like evidence Tolkien might have considered Universal Salvation. The idea was popular among some of his 19th Century influences like George MacDonald, F.D. Maurice and Charles Kingsley. And there's precedent for Universalist Catholic theologians as well.
You and The Red Book have the best Tolkien content!! I thought I was knowledgable, but I'm getting deeper and deeper into the legendarium with each video. Its like peeling back layers of an onion, like 'truth' I guess. You understand things on a deeper level more and more each time.
Tolkien knew that most of us reject repentance, as well...one of the reasons that the story feels real sometimes. I imagine when it's us that it's just as tragic in hindsight, as well.
Can the worth of something be reduced to the amount of money it can be sold for? Van Gogh's paintings are sold for millions, yet he died in poverty. Were his paintings worth less (worthless) back then? And do Tolkien's works gain more worth by the production of merchandise than by the creativity he put into them?
As many times as it is offered, repentance is often refused in the Legendarium. Aule, Boromir, and Osse, are the only characters who, when confronted with their misdeeds, repented and submitted to Authority, or went out like a true Champ. I would add Celebrimbor and Turgon but a Noldo is going to Noldo and it's difficult to blame them for shiny object attachment, be it jewelry or shining cities, when it appears to be written into the Noldor DNA. Also, because all the Middle Earth Noldor are cursed, it is hard to parse out where individual free will ends and the curse begins. As discussed in a prior video, a clear example is the idiotic last desperate attempt to steal a Silmaril by the two surviving sons of Feanor. Almost certainly the most morally upstanding of the seven (very low bar), Maedhros and Maglor would have repented if their oath would have allowed for it. Manwe forgave Melkor. I'm sure he could have used the AllFather hotline and worked something out. 1000 Yen of Community Service or maybe carving: 'I will not use my hroa's mouth to write checks my fea can't cash' a google times in stone. And, then there's Hurin, poor poor Hurin. Who also repents of his bitterness when his sight is cleansed by Melian's empathy and discernment. Who have I missed? Why do so few of the Legendarium's characters reject their last chance for redemption when offered?
I'm glad you spotted that 😉 I realized while I was working on this video that the "last chance" is something that can most clearly be seen *only if one fails to take it*. Aule and Osse are pretty clear examples; Boromir is likely another. But there are plenty of good-but-not-perfect characters who struggle with temptation, who may have passed their 'last chance' without it ever being remarked upon so explicitly. Maybe Frodo's decision to spare Gollum would have been his 'last chance;' maybe Sam giving the Ring back to Frodo was another case. Gandalf and Galadriel (and Faramir!) resist taking the Ring. Thorin refrains from killing Bilbo after he finds out about the Arkenstone. Isildur realizes he's been dumb about the Ring and tries to at least do damage control in his final hours. All of these *could* have been Last Chances, or they could have been 'merely' crucial decisions, which the characters could still recover from if they messed up. But the fact is they *didn't* mess up, or didn't mess up too badly, so we'll never know what would have happened if they'd failed. (Maedhros seems to go back and forth, which is why he's so tricky - every time you think his villain arc is complete, he swerves and pulls a Redemption; the cycle repeats until even he gets bored of it and hucks himself into the nearest fissure .) With Morgoth, Sauron, Feanor, Saruman, Denethor, Grima, and Gollum already hogging my attention, though, I figured getting into *actual* cases of redemption was a subject for another video. 😅
@@GirlNextGondor When you do end up writing that 'Character Redemption in Tolkien's Writings' video, I hope you'll touch on the Greatest Redemption Arc of All Time™: Lobelia Sackville-Baggins! 🥄🥄🥄
@@GirlNextGondor I'd kind of like to see that redemption video. Seeing the failures is interesting, but it's important not to dwell solely on them. Otherwise its easy to think that there is no hope, and nothing to be done. (yes, I like redemption arcs. I find them fascinating, because they let you see what's possible for a character that you might have given up on, or nearly so. Well done, they can be brilliant, and leave me yelling 'yes!' out loud. Badly, well, anything done badly enough is pretty bad.)
This video really echoes with my person experience, there was someone I loved deep but failed to turn her trajectory towards a dark path. You make me want to reread TLOR again after so many years. Thank you
Wile the long term effects - possibly detrimental in spite of good intentions - of our decisions can not be known, the world will be a better place if we strive to be the best version possible of ourselves.
Tolkien’s Christianity, specifically his Catholicism, is probably what was most influential in these moments. The author Flannery O’Connor, who was also Catholic, uses moments like this as well in her works. Good video.
What about Ossë ? Much like Frodo, in his time of need there's someone else there to pull him out of the edge. There's also the theme of being alone and loneliness that combines with the pursuit of power for power's sake.
Imagine if Gollum DID help them destroy the ring. His life wouldn't be the same afterwards and it would be hard for him to adapt to a normal life. I mean...he forgot what bread tastes like...that's a long time being detached from people!
Gollum, at least, seems to think that his continued long life is dependent on the Ring's existence -- just like Bilbo quickly starts showing signs of old age and senility after its destruction, it sounds like Gollum would probably experience the effects of 500 years passing all at once. But in a related vein, I want to know more about how the Wood-elves tried to rehabilitate him. It seems that off-leash walks in the woods were part of the protocol 😅
@@GirlNextGondor The Woodland Elves were probably oblivious to the evil within Gollum, just as the Valar were oblivious to the evil within Melkor. Righteous characters never seem to understand the extent to which evil can indwell beings.
@@Enerdhilehh, the Wood Elves don't have the same reputation of wisdom or righteousness as the Ñoldor or Sindar (although at the same time wise elves like Turgon and Thingol also made stupid choices that got them killed, but you could argue that they had valid motivations). Point is I'm sure long-lived elves like Thranduil could've perceived Gollum's corruption, but tried to help him anyway, whereas someone like Manwe if he saw Gollum would prob be like "uh I don't remember this being part of the Ainulindale" and thus not understand his depravity
@@mon_moi At least in my headcanon, the First Children of Iluvatar are like Adam and Eve if they never sinned. Men are like Adam and Eve after they ate the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I know Maeglin, Eöl, and all the Fëanorians did many evil acts, but they are outliers. So I think it is possible that even after Aragorn explained to Thranduil how evil and sneaky Gollum was, they didn't realize that they were supposed to adjust their treatment of him, so they gave him permission to be outside and climb up trees, and that is when Orcs suddenly attacked them and Gollum was able to escape.
I feel like Tolkein is inviting us to imagine, in moments of our own lives when we quaver on the edge of decision, struggling to do what is right, what if the whole fate of the world were silently and patiently hanging in the balance. We could never know which of our decisions could ultimately lead to the world's salvation, or not.
Another impressively thoughtful video. There’s something uniquely cathartic about having information that is mostly known to you connected in this way by your video essays. I always come away from your work not only better grasping Tolkien’s world, but also feeling more in touch with the themes of his work and my feelings about them. Your videos are simultaneously comforting and intellectually and imaginatively challenging/fulfilling.
sméagol is my favorite character ever .. i see myself in him .. i got into lotr late maybe not even a year ago i fell hard for the franchise because of him .. its a very compelling performance i find my myself understanding and in deep sympathy for why he betrayed froto
All the heroes, anti-heroes, and villains have a point of no return. But some of us are just straight up deceived by Sauron to betray our friends and join our beloved by way of a cruel death. Just sayin: there's a good reason I'm unhappy
Maybe your unhappiness can be comforted by the fact that you did, indeed, repent, and saved your liege's son? Or better yet, having fled the circles of the world, are you not reunited, in some sense, with your Eilinel? ...having fled the circles of the world, *how are you leaving comments on UA-cam videos*?
@@GirlNextGondor I am glad that Beren was spared, I suppose there is some redemption in that. But the betrayal of Barahir weighs heavily on my heart nonetheless. As for Eilinel, I'm still searching for her beyond the circles. I guess that's how I ended up on your UA-cam comments. Pretty far out! ❤️
Always a pleasure to see you in the comments section, squashie! There's a point of tension I'll have to get into later, exemplified by Sam vs Saruman or Wormtongue (or even Sauron): in the one case, a person who means well overall ends up causing harm (which Tolkien called something like 'good doing evil unaware' and said he thought it was a common phenomenon in real life.) In the other case, the opportunism and self-centeredness of evil characters ends up harming *them* more than it does anyone else, often because they assume everyone else is as corrupt as they themselves are. So on the one hand, we have good doing evil, and on the other, we have... evil doing evil (to itself), which sometimes has "good" (or at least fortunate) effects. Quite the predicament 😅 (And yes, lady-balrogs are a fascinating overlooked opportunity!)
@@GirlNextGondor Bless you Lexi! You are a legend. And I'll catch up on the new vid soon :) And that is a great observation! The "good doing evil unaware" does seem to happen often in life...
While watching this video I had to think a lot about Galadriel and how great it was that she did pass her test and did repent in the end! She of course started on a much higher spiritual level compared to the more villaneous characters but her turning away from the valar could have easily led her down a very dark path too. Instead of a dark lord you would have a queen...
🥰great video as always! This was a very interesting topic I haven’t seen covered in full before. Wonderfully done! (And in Melkor”s defense, those rocks are really, really shiny)
Been eagerly awaiting your new upload. This was a really good one! I feel that Tolkien's view on redemption was heavily influenced by his Catholic upbringing and personal faith, since the idea of the redemption is such a vital part of that branch of Christianity. But Tolkien's personal brand is not the same as church doctrine, and he demonstrates a much more humanistic view on it in his later writing. It does make me deeply regret (for the millionth time) that we could never get even one of the Great Tales finished by Tolkien's own hand. When reading the published Silmarillion and knowing that the versions printed there are often very early, very rough and lacking in both detail and philsophical and moral depth it makes me wonder what we could have had. For example Fëanor. If I remember right the 1977 version of his life is mostly comprised of very early material, and his death in particular is an event that Tolkien didn't return to as often as some other stories that he chose to re-work. So what could a finished version of Fëanor's life looked like? Definitely a timeline I would have liked to visit. Looking forward to the next one
I'm looking into the "evolution of the Silmarillion' timeline right now, and it is a *doozy.* Feanor is scarcely even present in the earliest stages, though he's so short-lived that the post-LotR versions flesh him out nicely almost up to the moment of his death. Thingol, apparently, evolves quite a bit, but the only version of his death Tolkien succeeded in working out was an early one that did not match well with the later versions and had to be Frankenstein'd in. The version of 'Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin' found in Unfinished Tales is, for me, the closest we'll get in terms of style and detail to what a 'finished' post-LotR Silmarillion would look like.
@@GirlNextGondor I'm nowhere near as read as you are in the History of Middle-Earth books and the other ancillary material but it really does seem like a mess, yes. Just reading through Christophers note on some stories which reveal that the material presented has a temporal range that can be from like 1915-1955. I do know that the Thingol story is one case where Christopher openly said he messed up. The version printed in the 77 Silm is an almost pure invention of Christopher and/or Kay because they could not find a textually complete version of that part of the story at the time. However as you say that story DOES exist, but it's from a much earlier document, was unknown to Christopher at the time and really clashes. The standalone volume "Beren and Luthien" (my favorite of the Great Tales) is such an insane hodge-podge of material going all the way from "silly fairytale" to "deeply depressing existential drama". You covered this a bit in past videos like the one about great love stories but yeah the textual history there. Also sorry but I just realized. Uh, Tolkien was considering Melkor's discord not being his big evil deed? Was he seriously thinking about ditching the entire "Arda Marred" thing as the central mythological part of the story? I'm not sure I understood that right part but if that's the case that would have almost torn up the Legendarium from the ground and is about as much of controversial change as "Arda was always a regular planet with a sun and moon". Professor did you... did you consider HOW MUCH REWRITING you would have to do if you went with this?
Such great material! Thanks kiddo. Been bad about saying a lot for a while, but you have gotten me through this year of grad school. Dont know what I was thinking of going back at 50, but thanks! Loved watching the channel grow over the past couple years! Crazy to have been here from near the start!
The near repentence of Gollum is probably the most sombre moment in the entire trilogy of books- when Gollum almost became a Hobbit again and not a creature utterly twisted by the ring.
It's moments like these that show Sam is such a flawed character like anyone in tolkiens work. While, in the beginning, he was afraid about being turned into something unnatural by Gandalph, he reveals his other side when dealing with Gollum. He thought of himself as someone better than him and treated him as something lowly and insignificant; even when Smeagol was trying to seek Redemption and be better. Is this kind of nature with people that always feels disgusting and not one that usually comes up in conversation much but I am glad it's a topic being looked at.
So many of the people who claim to represent Tolkien's legacy don't really understand what made his works so good. They think all you have to do is include some elves, hobbits and wizards, throw in a bit of magic and action, and boom, just as good as Tolkien if not better. But if this video teaches anything it's that what makes Tolkien's work great is mostly what makes any work of literature great, the realistic characters, the struggles they face, the decisions they make, and the effects those decisions have on those characters. It's the same things that make a Dickens novel great. Why is the Hobbit movie trilogy so much worse than the book? Because they left these things out of the movies in order to make room for ridiculous action scenes. It's not like a great novel can't have a bit of action and adventure, Treasure Island for example, but it has to enhance, not replace, what made the novel great. Show me a person who can adapt Great Expectations into a good TV series, and I'll show you someone who can adapt Lord of the Rings into a good TV series; I guess the people at Amazon haven't figured that out yet.
Even if Sam had not spoken so harshly to Gollum at the crucial moment and Gollum, I wonder if it would have held. The One Ring's grasp on him was powerful and not easily removed. Still, I remember reading that text about Gollum genuinely repenting and then sacrificing himself to destroy the Ring and thinking as possible alternate endings go, that would have been a good one. Upon occasion, I have wondered about how if at certain moments a character had repented but the moment was one where the effect of their redemption wouldn't have been clear. For example, Saruman rejects Gandalf's offer at Isengard but I'm not sure if it would have made a huge difference if he had taken it. But what about if after Gandalf escapes his imprisonment on Orthanc that Saruman reflects on things and decides he has made a grave mistake. Sometimes, it is easier to decide to atone for your mistakes on your own than when having to do so with those you have wronged. What if Sauron had repented not at the end of The War of Wrath but rather at the end of The War for the Sake of the Elves? There's lots of possibilities.
Probably an inspiration, whether directly or indirectly. But the HS has four towers each in a ocrner, where the building depiected seems to have eight, in four pairs.
Gollum's near repentance _was_ one of the most moving and successful elements of the story. And it was completely erased by the movies and replaced by a stock villain character scene that is not in the books and therefore did not need to be included in the movie. I will never understand how Tolkien lovers can love the movies so much. They ruined some of the most beautiful and moving scenes that were the essence of the story to me.
I can explain one reason why some of us like the movies. If not for the LotR Trilogy Films, I never would have read Tolkien. I tried to read TFotR, but never made it past Bilbo's party. Now after two decades of binge reading Tolkien, I will never say anything critical of those first three Jackson movies. The Hobbit is another matter.😅
@@Enerdhil LOL. Okay, that is a redeeming feature if they turned some people back to the books. 🙂 I just resent how the collective "canon" has been altered to erase and replace some of the best scenes. Another pet peeve is Elrond's advice that they would find friendship along the way being replaced by Galadriel saying the opposite ("To wear a ring of power is to be alone"). Then of course, they erased the actual friendship of the Ents (who had to be scolded by hobbits to take any action) and Faramir (who becomes a duplicate Boromir instead of the true friend along the way that he was). Like Jackson had to make it a meaner, nastier story than it was. As someone who read the books for decades before the movies came out, I was not inclined to forgive his arrogance in changing the story to make it worse.
@@Cat_Woods I agree with everything you posted. Peter Jackson changed a lot of things, but the look and feel of Middle Earth in the films is still how I think of it when I read the books.
And the Huge-revelation-that-never-occurred-to-me-and-Girl-Next-Gondor-mentions-only-in-passing goes to... The Eucatastrophe of Gollum's death had its impetus in his oath on the ring. 😱
I forget where I first ran into this idea, it's been formulated in a few different ways across the internet - but I do remember it kind of blowing my mind that I hadn't connected the oath to Gollum's death before. There's even debate on whether Frodo had a role in 'cursing' Gollum too - long before they reach Mount Doom Frodo promises that if Gollum were to attack him, he would use the Ring to command him to throw himself off a precipice or into the fire, and then on the slopes of the mountain Frodo makes good on that by telling Gollum if he touches Frodo again he shall be consumed in the "Fires of Doom."
I really loved this. To me the character of Gollum can in many ways be considered the hero of the tale, he destroys the ring. What he thought, how he repented as he fell into the abyss we know not, what grace allowed him to destroy his bane is beyond our ken. As for Sam he is only human, therefore an imperfect hero, Gollum is only human, an imperfect villain, the same is true of the humanity of all of Tolkiens characters, whatever their race. One could maybe go so far as to say, Tolkien knew his own doubts and imperfections so well that he could realistically reflect them in his wonderful characters. Thanks GNG.
I'd argue against that by noting that much of what Gollum does is influenced by his own personal greed of the Ring. Not only does he fail to redeem himself like similar characters in the story, he essentially embraces his fall at the end. It's entirely by chance, or the work of Eru (or God, since Tolkien was Catholic) that Gollum falls to his doom while celebrating his seeming victory and by extension destroys the Ring. Before this, it's likely that Gollum rejected redemption during the events at Osgiliath, and by that point he had fully committed himself to evil. He's not an imperfect villain because he failed, he's an imperfect being because he refused to change.
@@mrbigglezworth42 yes indeed his failure is due to personal greed and to try to look at it from a Catholic viewpoint it is by the grace of god that he is destroyed in his attempt to claim the ring. If Bilbo stabs him when he has the chance, or if so many other chances had destroyed him earlier he is not there for the moment of eucastrophe. As Tolkien says “evil will oft evil mars.” The use of the disharmony to create an even more beautiful music, as promised in the Ainulindale is demonstrated beautifully here. The ability of god to redeem all is shown. The doomed and forgotten soul bears the ring to its destruction. I am not saying Gollum is the hero, merely that he can in many ways be considered as such. My view is that like much the professor wrote whilst praising and extolling heroism, especially that shown in the long defeat, he is keenly aware of the futility of many types of heroic behaviour. No one person is the hero in the book, some pick Sam, a great choice I am trying to point out the complexity woven into these characters.
Astoundingly deep analysis as usual, thanks for all the insight. I have a tangential inquiry though. I never quite understood the nature of the ring's effects on longevity. Is it related to its mere existence, on how much it taints a specific wearer? Because Gollum spent a long while without it and even still he lived. Do you have any video explaining its impact on both the fëa and hröa?
You say that Morgoth is the originator of evil. I don't think this is correct. If we can agree (we probably don't) that evil is a negative thing, the absence of good, the introduction of flaws or imperfection), we must also admit that ERU (in the world of Tolkien's Arda) created Morgoth, so ERU is the originator of evil, not Morgoth. Morgoth, yes, is (in JRRT's world) the disobedient agent through which evil was introduced, and since he emerged from the Mind of Eru, might we also refer to Melko/Melkor/Morgoth as a Spirit Puppet, not a free agent? How, in fact, is the Eru-Melkor relation discernibly different than the Melkor-Orc relationship? Anything created by Eru is, I think you've claimed, by definition "good", but can you also consider that such definitions are at the core of the consistency issues that arise in all such discussions of Tolkien's or ANY religion-based worldview? Eru (God) created all the animals, and many of these animals feed, reproduce, and compete for living space with violence. They liter and MAR the idyllic landscape with death and destruction, and they do this at the call of instinct, meaning they follow the nature that was instilled in them. Good and evil, therefore, are relative, because in the POV of the little fish, for example, he or she had a bad (evil) day when they were eaten, but the big fish was happy and content and filled with the good things of the world. If, instead, we adopt a different viewpoint, and say that SIN (and not evil) is what we should be commenting on, we also may be forced to admit that our notion of free will must be much constrained (or even eliminated). Disobedience to our nature, therefore, would be the true flaw or measure of wickedness, and evil would need to be redefined and NOT equated to sin or wickedness. The problem with even this revised notion of reality, however, will still reside in agreeing upon WHAT constitutes our natures. 99% of animals are NOT gay, while 5% (or 10%?) of human are, and Morgoth is 99% wicked. Are those 5% of humans following their natural (baked in the cake) proclivities, and is Morgoth being true to himself, and thus perfect in his own eyes? Perhaps we need to rethink the nature of Eru? This topic is an evolving minefield, but I agree with you. I can't stay away from it. Thanks AGAIN for all the time, effort, and thought you pour into these videos.
Sarumans failed try of redemption always gets me although I geniuinly despise him all the time. Everything might have been different if Gwaihir had arrived Orthanc a bit later
Sauron's repentance after the War of Wrath was no deception to me. The help he would offer them in coming among the Elves was a kind of penance and a sign of his sincerity, but they could not understand him, and because of this misunderstanding they returned Sauron to the will of Melkor.
It's a very Catholic thing. Looking to the Bible, specifically the New Testament, we can see a fine trio of approaches to the opportunity of redemption. Firstly, there is Judas, who, after betraying Jesus, is so struck with guilt that he ends his own life. Then there is Peter, who denied Christ three times, but then repented and was redeemed. In these two, we see both betray their Friend and Lord, but one refuses to accept redemption while the other is redeemed and even becomes first among the Apostles. Then there is Pontius Pilate, who is alien to the circumstances of Jesus; he determines that He is innocent of any crime, and tries again and again to liberate Jesus, but ultimately balks when faced with the crowds and the threat of incurring the wrath of Emperor Tiberius. Had Pilate stood strong and denied the Jews, he'd be remembered today as a paragon of justice and strength, rather than the man who washed his hands of innocent blood to appease the riotous masses. Stories of redemption and near redemption compel the human spirit, both by the hopeful triumph of the former and the painful tragedy of the latter.
The Gollum internal dialogue is such a beautiful and heartbreaking scene, but it feels like it is a recognition that even tho he wishes it differently somehow, he has already crossed the rubicon.
“The die is cast.”
@@MichaelWilliams-bw6healea iacta est
"You have become a fool Saruman, but pitiable."
Denethor wasn't a bad guy. He was a single man that did his best in an untenable situation and it finally broke him. He wasn't weak, because a weaker person would have broken much sooner.
His pride did Denethor in.
@@Enerdhil He lost his wife early, he lost his son recently. He was proud, I will agree to that, but he was also regal, and he felt totally responsible for his people. He was a good leader that was pushed beyond his limit.
@@kevinpotts123
That's right... beyond "his" limits. Yet his pride refused to recognize that and led his mind down the path of insanity.
@@Enerdhil well, the Palantir probably pushed him into insanity more than anything. Not his pride.
@@kevinpotts123
So ...Do you actually think that Denethor's pride did not cause him to gaze into the Palantir, knowing that he would have a struggle session with Sauron every time? Pride caused him to take chances that eventually resulted in him losing his mind.
To illustrate how important Gollum's failed redemption was to Tolkien, according to Cristopher, the manuscript of that scene had tear stains on it.
You know, there's some facts that, once you know them, there's a part of you that's just... in horrible pain, for the rest of your mortal days. I think this is one of those. So... thanks? 🤣🤣😭
Can you cite where this is, about the tear stains? I've just spent a while looking for it in HoMe 8 and not finding it. Would like to see it in Christopher's own words.
@@GirlNextGondor On perhaps a cheerier note, I've watched too many reaction videos to the movie version. One of the most memorable comments was someone writing that his small daughter, watching the movie for the first time and seeing Gandalf and three eagles approaching the unconscious Frodo and Sam, said "Look! Gandalf brought an eagle for Gollum!"
I think that would make the Professor smile.
@@larrykuenning5754 apparently this isn't all true. Tolkien himself mentioned in letter 241 having "blotted the pages with tears" when writing about Sam and Frodo in the field of Cormallen. According to letters 72 and 91, it was C. S. Lewis who cried to the Gollum scene. Finally, in a recount of Tolkien's visit to Holland, it says he himself admits to weeping when writing the scene. Carl Hostetter might have mentioned the manuscript part too, but can't find much about it. So, to recount: Tolkien admited to being moved by many scenes; he admits to crying to one of them and staining the pages of it in a letter; he admits to Jack crying to the scene in question in another letter; he admits to crying to the scene in question in a piblic event, and if Holstetter actually talked about it, it might explain why I had confused him with Christopher in the first place.
@@therealpatagonianpancakes: Thanks for the Letters reference. Looking up 72 and 91, it looks to me that what moved Lewis to tears was "the last chapter" of Book IV, i.e. "The Choices of Master Samwise" which is later than the scene where Gollum nearly repents.
It seems to me that Tolkien found a way to use his love of ancient things lost, and turn it into the skill he sought to write his characters. These moments of near-redemptions are 'the beautiful', lost as surely as those who have perished to time. Glimpsed imperfectly, desired, and thought over.
That is a really neat take I hadn't considered. The idea that a missed opportunity is a sort of 'unexplored vista' of what could have been... coupled with the idea that to repent would mean *going back* to some version of what these corrupted figures used to be in a past that now *seems* impossibly distant - which is something else the text emphasizes at every opportunity 😆
If Gollum's betrayal is necessary for the destruction of the Ring, did Sam save Middle Earth by stopping Gollum's redemption?
See Tolkien's own speculation (in Letter #246) quoted at 23:55, about how the Quest might have been achieved anyway.
There's an even more agonizing corollary here: by stopping Gollum's redemption, did Sam make it so that Frodo had to leave Middle-earth (and him) because after Gollum's betrayal he believed himself to be similarly irredeemable?
@@GirlNextGondor I feel it’s one of those things only eru knows
@@GirlNextGondor Personally I believe that Frodo was 'doomed' to leave as soon as he was stabbed in the dell at Weathertop. At least, that sealed his fate and from there there was no return. Though I wonder what could've been, had he returned to the Shire and someone else accomplished destroying the Ring, so that he didn't have to carry it for so long, towards the heart of darkness, it's power constantly growing.
At the point where he's stabbed he has already been safeguarding the Ring, whose power slowly waxed over the years, even if he did not use it. It still 'preserved' him, as it did Bilbo. I wonder what could've been, but in the end it just makes me sadder. The ending always makes me shed a tear. Of all the members of the Fellowship, Frodo in my eyes deserved most a calm, peaceful life. At least in Valinor he was granted that, and that is a comforting thought.
Still, it's always a sorrowful to realise that Frodo gave up a happy life in his beloved Shire for others. This will always make him the greatest, most tragic heroic figure of the story.
I don't think that's true. I don't think it really reflects his Christian worldview. The idea that God "predestines" people to condemnation is mostly, to my knowledge, only a thing in the few Calvinist denominations of Prorestantism (Presbyterians, Reformed, and some Baptists) and not reflective of Tolkien's own Catholic tradition that values the importance of free will. Important to the understanding of Providence is that although God does not ordain that people commit evil in order that his greater purposes be accomplished , like Gollum failing to he redeemed, thus destroying the Ring, God's Providence works in such a way that his will can be accomplished without violating people's freedom to make their own choices for good or evil. The evil people do can be turned around and used to accomplish good, even though it would've been preferable for them to make the right choices in the first place. Gollum's failure, then, may have resulted in Sauron's defeat, but his redemption wouldn't have inherently prevented Sauron's defeat. If anything, it could have still happened regardless. The only thing Gollum's choices changed in the grand scheme of things was the amount of suffering Frodo, Sam, and Gollum himself had to endure to get to the finish line, but it was providential eucatastrophe that secured the ultimate victory.
Simply the best Tolkien-tuber. Greater insight and reflections than I see anywhere else
I appreciate that 🥰 though any particular insight is, I'm afraid,. mostly due to the unconscionable amounts of time I spend Thinking About Elves when I should be, for instance, filing my taxes....
@@GirlNextGondor Once you go full time (dunno if you already are) it will all be worth it, and so, so deserved
This is, quickly, my favorite of your videos. My sadness at Gollum’s losing his last chance at repentance was in me from my first reading as an early teen, and from that, it disturbed me to see “hero Sam” being (or being used) as a tool to challenge him…
Something I didn't find a good place for, but think is *really* important to challenging the tired 'Middle-earth was meant to be a world of simplistic black-and-white morality' narrative, is a quote by Tolkien saying that Sam, an overall 'good' person who was mainly motivated by compassion, loyalty, and protectiveness, ended up doing something bad, and that he included this in part because it "seemed to me to be most like real life." Sam really is doing the best he can - which is pretty darn good! - but because he's not perfect (nor is anyone around him), he sometimes ends up causing harm anyway. That's haunting.
@@anni.68 Except Sam had every right to mistrust Gollum, as did most people who came upon him. You have to remember, he was banished from the Shire for murder, and had been known by that point as a vile thing hiding in the dark places in the world. You don't just trust a scorpion not to sting you, just because it says it won't.
@@mrbigglezworth42 Sure, but Frodo also had every right to mistrust Gollum, and Bilbo had a reason to kill Gollum.
But they didn't, out of pity. Trying to help someone who's trustworthy is mere opportunism, true virtuous pity comes only when you help those that "don't deserve it".
Frodo also had a right to refuse the Ring, but he took the more noble path.
Speaking on choices, what of the choice of forgiveness? It just makes me think that, say in the case of Manwë, he was said to be 'fooled' and released Melkor because he could not comprehend lies, but there is also consequence of choosing "right" when others do not do the same, etc...nor a point just a thought that popped up listening to this the first time around. What stuck with me the most after all this time was that it really made me think about Sam and how we just brush off his abbrassive attitude towards gollum because we see gullom not smeagol and can't fault his devotion to Frodo. But it also is remarkable to me that Tolkien devised this character who is so 'pure' but still has teh capacity to be cruel/hate which shows that nothing is without his shadow and how even those that are on the whole 'good' can still behave/make ill choices. Sometimes what determines how others, history, or even future choices, is really as much a matter of circumstance/time....
Always great video essays. Glad to be among the first to watch
Appreciate it! ❤️
@@GirlNextGondor you have different takes than other Tolkien channels. You do far more than just history - you’re far more thoughtful. You seem to be an intellectual heir of sorts. Keep up the fabulous work.
You are touching on themes that make Tolkien's work such a treasure for those who take the time to discover them. These themes transcend generations and cultures, which is why Tolkien is so beloved all over the world by so many. Brilliant analysis, as usual. Well done!
There was an extra eagle for Gollum
Hearing these things makes me think that I need to reflect upon myself very deeply.
Not only am I entertained by your channel I think I'm actually getting a bit of personal growth.
I... think I'm happy to hear that, but reluctant to take responsibility for it? Maybe you're just growing on your own 😉 and I just happen to be nearby?
On the other hand, I frequently find that "researching a cool fun topic that will boost muh algorithms!" quickly turns into "I must personally strive to live a more decent and courageous life, lest I let (insert character) down" (the video on Creativity and Evil was one of those). So maybe it's just the subject matter that's edifying us both....
The perfect video after a long day. Thanks!
Always learn something new!
I feel the same way. Lexi does all the hard work so we can be couch potatoes and enjoy her videos while getting an education in Tolkienology. 😁
Because I am demonstrably obsessed with villainous ginger meow-meows, I will point out that Maedhros’s throwing himself and the Silmaril into the fires of the Earth is a similar self-sacrifice. Nobody is going to commit more kinslaying for *his* Silmaril, that’s for sure. Including him.
I’d never thought about it before but that is one hell of a parallel. I wonder if Tolkien planned it or it was a coincidence.
@@simonmorris4226 Tolkien is hardly more immune than any other writer from the answer being "both"...
I found this channel last month. I have been a life long fan of Tolkien and I can say that this channel provides the most interesting and in depth analysis by far. I absolutely love it. Thank you so much!
Appreciate that tremendously. So glad you're enjoying it! 🥰
@@GirlNextGondor Gobsmacked and humbled is my reaction. I had just written a short paragraph on the nature of Bombadil and was feeling quite pleased with myself. But this stuff may be over my head. :) Thank you for giving me something to puzzle over.
Boromir does achieve redemption - and as Tolkien would put it, death is his reward.
Death is indeed the Gift of Eru to Boromir.
damn, Gollum stealing the ring from Frodo, and then thinking super hard, and then yeeting himself into a volcano, is one of the funniest images ive ever imagined, thank you for this!
Here's a good question why did Fëanor have so many children. Surely an immortal being would not have that many children. The only reason for having that many children is because you expect multiple of them to die. Having that many children when you are immortal means it's not going to take that long to overpopulate.
Most Elves did not have that many children and they usually only had children during a specific phase of their lives. I think the best explanation of why Fëanor had so many was he was an outlier. On the other hand, all but one of his children only outlived him by a few centuries and the one grandchild he had passed away without any children. The Fëanorians were good at finding ways to kill themselves off.
At the heart of these character's villainy was pride and arrogance. While they could change their behavior at certain points they could never really repent and achieve redemption.
The humility of our heroes is what saved Middle Earth.
Tolkien definitely seems to have subscribed to the theory that pride is at the heart of all moral failing.
@@GirlNextGondor Agreed. Just found this channel today and it is excellent. Another poster mentioned Galadriel finally passing her test. "She was proud, strong, and self-willed" but when faced with the ultimate temptation she refused it. "I passed the test. I will diminish...and go into the West...and remain Galadriel."
Didn't realize I clicked on this within a minute of posting. Now my comment will be late. XD
Thanks for the upload! I hadn't thought about how Sams remarks were the reason Gollum remained evil...
It's a pretty painful moment. He's trying to protect Frodo from Gollum and ends up triggering the opposite effect. To make matters worse he *does* eventually take pity on Gollum, but only after he's had to carry the Ring himself for a while 🤔
What a lovely video! But one small statement made me think… there is at least one character that really achieved redemption: Galadriel.
She literally says: “I pass the test.” That was her moment at the moral event horizon, and she turns. When I read that for the first time, I still feel the same elation and relief of her character-growth.
This was the clearest moment of redemption for a character. I would think there are more in the book.
First I really like your channel, it is very well done. So I will keep tuning in. I have an observation on the character of Denethor, and wonder what you think of it. I recall that Aragorn had served Denethor's father and that Denethor was jealous of him. Later as Steward using the Palantir, he would have recognized Aragorn and realized his lineage. To his mind, if Sauron is overthrown he is no long Steward because of Aragorn. But if Sauron wins, he is still overthrown and no longer steward. Either way, he is no longer steward. Could it be that it is this realization that his existence--which to him is to be steward no matter what--is over either way which leads to his hopelessness and suicide? It is a "what the heck" situation that you lose no matter what, so why try? In my life I have seen people in a no win situation just quit--a marriage, a job, a sports team, whatever--and Denethor strikes me as such a character. Anyway, keep up the great work here.
Great!
💖
Feanor reminds me a lot of Agamemnon, it's as if they just can't help being absolute jerks...
I was the lone Agamemnon stan in my Iliad reading group years ago. This explains so much 🤣
Though, of the two, Aggie was a better elder brother....
@@GirlNextGondor OSP did a wonderful precis of the various sources surrounding The Illad, along with some hilarious characterizations of Aggie at his boneheaded best:
Odysseus: "You just can't help yourself can you!"
Aggie: "Hey, I kidnapped her fair and square!"
ua-cam.com/video/TLodQGpIpIs/v-deo.html
@@GirlNextGondor he reminds me of Luke castlan good intentions or st least understandable but should have no power over others do to their temperament
On the one hand you feel bad knowing that Gollum would die regardless of how the Quest of the Ring ended since his longevity is tied to the Ring itself and no matter how it's destroyed he cannot live without it in the literal sense. On the other hand Gandalf does explicitly say that Gollum wandered the lands looking for the Ring drinking blood and killing infants.
The possibilities for horror spin-offs in the late 3rd Age are infinite. I can see the posters now: "Slinker: He's Coming For Your Kids!"
Hey, a mans gotta eat
But Gollum (the real Geek), who is at least man-adjacent (he speaks Westron, for Eru's sake) is thus a cannibal. He's not the best choice to invite as entertainment at a kid's birthday party. Slinker the Ravenous Stinker......Yikes!@@Laucron
@@kevinrussell1144 He eats 'squeakers' under the Goblin kingdom. hes a child killer.
" Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked!"
"when we twisted that nassty young squeaker. "
squad ⬆️up ⬆️
All hail the immortal Squad 😁
Thanks lexi. Beautiful building. ( Dome) lighting.
That's a newly posted one from Jonathan Guzi! I loved it 😍 always a pleasure to see more evil Numenorean temple scenes and/Sauron calling down divine wrath.
@@GirlNextGondor it's wonderful
Babe, wake up!
Awesome video! I'm gonna have to smack that like button like Gollum smacking the lava in Mt. Doom!
Ooof, that's a hard smack 😅
Ouch!🔥🌋
Maybe I'm childish, but the Patron who goes by the name of Elu Thickgol always gets a chuckle out of me!
Every time I have to read out his name I have to (affectionately) roll my eyes 😅
@@GirlNextGondor I realised that I never can increase my tier because Eru knows I don’t want you to have to pronounce mine!
YOU ARE BACK! YAY! 🎉🎉
(I'll comment on the video after i finish watching it)
The Dagor Dagorath Prophecy says that in the end even Feanor will be redeemed. Which given how emphasis there is on him rejecting it during his mortal life, sounds like evidence Tolkien might have considered Universal Salvation. The idea was popular among some of his 19th Century influences like George MacDonald, F.D. Maurice and Charles Kingsley. And there's precedent for Universalist Catholic theologians as well.
You and The Red Book have the best Tolkien content!! I thought I was knowledgable, but I'm getting deeper and deeper into the legendarium with each video. Its like peeling back layers of an onion, like 'truth' I guess. You understand things on a deeper level more and more each time.
This is probably my favorite video on the channel
Tolkien knew that most of us reject repentance, as well...one of the reasons that the story feels real sometimes. I imagine when it's us that it's just as tragic in hindsight, as well.
For all the money the LOTR brand has made, i estimated that Tolkien is worth $100,000. per page
Can the worth of something be reduced to the amount of money it can be sold for? Van Gogh's paintings are sold for millions, yet he died in poverty. Were his paintings worth less (worthless) back then? And do Tolkien's works gain more worth by the production of merchandise than by the creativity he put into them?
I repent. I was wrong. May Illuvatar have mercy on my fëa.
What a pleasure to find your channel - your not just re-capping, but presenting some solid literary analysis.
This was great! For once someone analyzing the THEMES and not just picking over letters and passages for glimses of more lore and history. Subscribed!
As many times as it is offered, repentance is often refused in the Legendarium. Aule, Boromir, and Osse, are the only characters who, when confronted with their misdeeds, repented and submitted to Authority, or went out like a true Champ. I would add Celebrimbor and Turgon but a Noldo is going to Noldo and it's difficult to blame them for shiny object attachment, be it jewelry or shining cities, when it appears to be written into the Noldor DNA. Also, because all the Middle Earth Noldor are cursed, it is hard to parse out where individual free will ends and the curse begins. As discussed in a prior video, a clear example is the idiotic last desperate attempt to steal a Silmaril by the two surviving sons of Feanor. Almost certainly the most morally upstanding of the seven (very low bar), Maedhros and Maglor would have repented if their oath would have allowed for it. Manwe forgave Melkor. I'm sure he could have used the AllFather hotline and worked something out. 1000 Yen of Community Service or maybe carving: 'I will not use my hroa's mouth to write checks my fea can't cash' a google times in stone. And, then there's Hurin, poor poor Hurin. Who also repents of his bitterness when his sight is cleansed by Melian's empathy and discernment. Who have I missed? Why do so few of the Legendarium's characters reject their last chance for redemption when offered?
I'm glad you spotted that 😉 I realized while I was working on this video that the "last chance" is something that can most clearly be seen *only if one fails to take it*. Aule and Osse are pretty clear examples; Boromir is likely another.
But there are plenty of good-but-not-perfect characters who struggle with temptation, who may have passed their 'last chance' without it ever being remarked upon so explicitly. Maybe Frodo's decision to spare Gollum would have been his 'last chance;' maybe Sam giving the Ring back to Frodo was another case. Gandalf and Galadriel (and Faramir!) resist taking the Ring. Thorin refrains from killing Bilbo after he finds out about the Arkenstone. Isildur realizes he's been dumb about the Ring and tries to at least do damage control in his final hours. All of these *could* have been Last Chances, or they could have been 'merely' crucial decisions, which the characters could still recover from if they messed up. But the fact is they *didn't* mess up, or didn't mess up too badly, so we'll never know what would have happened if they'd failed. (Maedhros seems to go back and forth, which is why he's so tricky - every time you think his villain arc is complete, he swerves and pulls a Redemption; the cycle repeats until even he gets bored of it and hucks himself into the nearest fissure .)
With Morgoth, Sauron, Feanor, Saruman, Denethor, Grima, and Gollum already hogging my attention, though, I figured getting into *actual* cases of redemption was a subject for another video. 😅
This is so funny and well written. Bravo
@@GirlNextGondor When you do end up writing that 'Character Redemption in Tolkien's Writings' video, I hope you'll touch on the Greatest Redemption Arc of All Time™: Lobelia Sackville-Baggins! 🥄🥄🥄
@@GirlNextGondor Perhaps it can be simply stated that you don't know it's your last chance until you fail to take it.
@@GirlNextGondor I'd kind of like to see that redemption video. Seeing the failures is interesting, but it's important not to dwell solely on them. Otherwise its easy to think that there is no hope, and nothing to be done. (yes, I like redemption arcs. I find them fascinating, because they let you see what's possible for a character that you might have given up on, or nearly so. Well done, they can be brilliant, and leave me yelling 'yes!' out loud. Badly, well, anything done badly enough is pretty bad.)
Gollum's moment of almost redemption always made me sad.
This video really echoes with my person experience, there was someone I loved deep but failed to turn her trajectory towards a dark path. You make me want to reread TLOR again after so many years. Thank you
Great exploration of a fascinating theme!
You’ve quickly become my favorite Tolkien UA-camr.
'Sneaking! sneaking! Hobbits always so polite, yes. O nice Hobbits! Smeagol brings them up secret ways that nobody else could find. Tired he is...'
“GirlNextGondor” Funny. Love it. Good analysis too! Do you have one on Bombadil and Goldberry? I’ll check it out.
Thanks! I've made passing references to TB and Goldberry but not one dedicated to them exclusively... not yet, that is!
Wile the long term effects - possibly detrimental in spite of good intentions - of our decisions can not be known, the world will be a better place if we strive to be the best version possible of ourselves.
Tolkien’s Christianity, specifically his Catholicism, is probably what was most influential in these moments. The author Flannery O’Connor, who was also Catholic, uses moments like this as well in her works.
Good video.
What about Ossë ?
Much like Frodo, in his time of need there's someone else there to pull him out of the edge.
There's also the theme of being alone and loneliness that combines with the pursuit of power for power's sake.
Imagine if Gollum DID help them destroy the ring. His life wouldn't be the same afterwards and it would be hard for him to adapt to a normal life. I mean...he forgot what bread tastes like...that's a long time being detached from people!
Gollum, at least, seems to think that his continued long life is dependent on the Ring's existence -- just like Bilbo quickly starts showing signs of old age and senility after its destruction, it sounds like Gollum would probably experience the effects of 500 years passing all at once.
But in a related vein, I want to know more about how the Wood-elves tried to rehabilitate him. It seems that off-leash walks in the woods were part of the protocol 😅
@@GirlNextGondor
The Woodland Elves were probably oblivious to the evil within Gollum, just as the Valar were oblivious to the evil within Melkor. Righteous characters never seem to understand the extent to which evil can indwell beings.
@@Enerdhilehh, the Wood Elves don't have the same reputation of wisdom or righteousness as the Ñoldor or Sindar (although at the same time wise elves like Turgon and Thingol also made stupid choices that got them killed, but you could argue that they had valid motivations). Point is I'm sure long-lived elves like Thranduil could've perceived Gollum's corruption, but tried to help him anyway, whereas someone like Manwe if he saw Gollum would prob be like "uh I don't remember this being part of the Ainulindale" and thus not understand his depravity
@@mon_moi
At least in my headcanon, the First Children of Iluvatar are like Adam and Eve if they never sinned. Men are like Adam and Eve after they ate the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
I know Maeglin, Eöl, and all the Fëanorians did many evil acts, but they are outliers.
So I think it is possible that even after Aragorn explained to Thranduil how evil and sneaky Gollum was, they didn't realize that they were supposed to adjust their treatment of him, so they gave him permission to be outside and climb up trees, and that is when Orcs suddenly attacked them and Gollum was able to escape.
I feel like Tolkein is inviting us to imagine, in moments of our own lives when we quaver on the edge of decision, struggling to do what is right, what if the whole fate of the world were silently and patiently hanging in the balance. We could never know which of our decisions could ultimately lead to the world's salvation, or not.
Aid from providences ♥️♥️♥️ honestly respect to this video n you Lexi ♥️♥️♥️
Another impressively thoughtful video. There’s something uniquely cathartic about having information that is mostly known to you connected in this way by your video essays. I always come away from your work not only better grasping Tolkien’s world, but also feeling more in touch with the themes of his work and my feelings about them. Your videos are simultaneously comforting and intellectually and imaginatively challenging/fulfilling.
sméagol is my favorite character ever .. i see myself in him .. i got into lotr late maybe not even a year ago i fell hard for the franchise because of him .. its a very compelling performance i find my myself understanding and in deep sympathy for why he betrayed froto
All the heroes, anti-heroes, and villains have a point of no return. But some of us are just straight up deceived by Sauron to betray our friends and join our beloved by way of a cruel death. Just sayin: there's a good reason I'm unhappy
Maybe your unhappiness can be comforted by the fact that you did, indeed, repent, and saved your liege's son? Or better yet, having fled the circles of the world, are you not reunited, in some sense, with your Eilinel?
...having fled the circles of the world, *how are you leaving comments on UA-cam videos*?
@@GirlNextGondor I am glad that Beren was spared, I suppose there is some redemption in that. But the betrayal of Barahir weighs heavily on my heart nonetheless.
As for Eilinel, I'm still searching for her beyond the circles. I guess that's how I ended up on your UA-cam comments. Pretty far out! ❤️
@@GirlNextGondor UA-cam exists in both the seen and unseen worlds?
Wishful thinking isn't a good reason to commit treachery. You make your bed; you lie in it.
The lord of the rings 😍😍😍😍😍😍
I like the way you put things.
This video offers a new perspective on the characters and their stories that I have yet to see. This is a great video. Awesome work.
I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er
Your videos always have the effects of a cast of Heal
Always a pleasure to see you in the comments section, squashie!
There's a point of tension I'll have to get into later, exemplified by Sam vs Saruman or Wormtongue (or even Sauron): in the one case, a person who means well overall ends up causing harm (which Tolkien called something like 'good doing evil unaware' and said he thought it was a common phenomenon in real life.) In the other case, the opportunism and self-centeredness of evil characters ends up harming *them* more than it does anyone else, often because they assume everyone else is as corrupt as they themselves are.
So on the one hand, we have good doing evil, and on the other, we have... evil doing evil (to itself), which sometimes has "good" (or at least fortunate) effects. Quite the predicament 😅
(And yes, lady-balrogs are a fascinating overlooked opportunity!)
@@GirlNextGondor Bless you Lexi! You are a legend. And I'll catch up on the new vid soon :)
And that is a great observation! The "good doing evil unaware" does seem to happen often in life...
While watching this video I had to think a lot about Galadriel and how great it was that she did pass her test and did repent in the end! She of course started on a much higher spiritual level compared to the more villaneous characters but her turning away from the valar could have easily led her down a very dark path too. Instead of a dark lord you would have a queen...
The breadth of this analysis is, well, breathtaking. Thank you
🥰great video as always! This was a very interesting topic I haven’t seen covered in full before. Wonderfully done! (And in Melkor”s defense, those rocks are really, really shiny)
Been eagerly awaiting your new upload.
This was a really good one! I feel that Tolkien's view on redemption was heavily influenced by his Catholic upbringing and personal faith, since the idea of the redemption is such a vital part of that branch of Christianity. But Tolkien's personal brand is not the same as church doctrine, and he demonstrates a much more humanistic view on it in his later writing. It does make me deeply regret (for the millionth time) that we could never get even one of the Great Tales finished by Tolkien's own hand. When reading the published Silmarillion and knowing that the versions printed there are often very early, very rough and lacking in both detail and philsophical and moral depth it makes me wonder what we could have had.
For example Fëanor. If I remember right the 1977 version of his life is mostly comprised of very early material, and his death in particular is an event that Tolkien didn't return to as often as some other stories that he chose to re-work. So what could a finished version of Fëanor's life looked like? Definitely a timeline I would have liked to visit.
Looking forward to the next one
I'm looking into the "evolution of the Silmarillion' timeline right now, and it is a *doozy.* Feanor is scarcely even present in the earliest stages, though he's so short-lived that the post-LotR versions flesh him out nicely almost up to the moment of his death. Thingol, apparently, evolves quite a bit, but the only version of his death Tolkien succeeded in working out was an early one that did not match well with the later versions and had to be Frankenstein'd in.
The version of 'Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin' found in Unfinished Tales is, for me, the closest we'll get in terms of style and detail to what a 'finished' post-LotR Silmarillion would look like.
@@GirlNextGondor I'm nowhere near as read as you are in the History of Middle-Earth books and the other ancillary material but it really does seem like a mess, yes. Just reading through Christophers note on some stories which reveal that the material presented has a temporal range that can be from like 1915-1955.
I do know that the Thingol story is one case where Christopher openly said he messed up. The version printed in the 77 Silm is an almost pure invention of Christopher and/or Kay because they could not find a textually complete version of that part of the story at the time. However as you say that story DOES exist, but it's from a much earlier document, was unknown to Christopher at the time and really clashes. The standalone volume "Beren and Luthien" (my favorite of the Great Tales) is such an insane hodge-podge of material going all the way from "silly fairytale" to "deeply depressing existential drama". You covered this a bit in past videos like the one about great love stories but yeah the textual history there.
Also sorry but I just realized.
Uh, Tolkien was considering Melkor's discord not being his big evil deed? Was he seriously thinking about ditching the entire "Arda Marred" thing as the central mythological part of the story? I'm not sure I understood that right part but if that's the case that would have almost torn up the Legendarium from the ground and is about as much of controversial change as "Arda was always a regular planet with a sun and moon". Professor did you... did you consider HOW MUCH REWRITING you would have to do if you went with this?
Such great material! Thanks kiddo. Been bad about saying a lot for a while, but you have gotten me through this year of grad school. Dont know what I was thinking of going back at 50, but thanks! Loved watching the channel grow over the past couple years! Crazy to have been here from near the start!
I really enjoyed the philosophical insight of this video. 😍
The near repentence of Gollum is probably the most sombre moment in the entire trilogy of books- when Gollum almost became a Hobbit again and not a creature utterly twisted by the ring.
I love your take on things, keep it going ❤
It's moments like these that show Sam is such a flawed character like anyone in tolkiens work. While, in the beginning, he was afraid about being turned into something unnatural by Gandalph, he reveals his other side when dealing with Gollum. He thought of himself as someone better than him and treated him as something lowly and insignificant; even when Smeagol was trying to seek Redemption and be better. Is this kind of nature with people that always feels disgusting and not one that usually comes up in conversation much but I am glad it's a topic being looked at.
Sam is an amazing, heroic character, but it's doing him (and Tolkien) a disservice to ignore that he had flaws and that his mistakes had consequences.
So glad I found this channel. You are absolutely wonderful in your character analysis!
Your best video yet! And that's saying a lot!
So many of the people who claim to represent Tolkien's legacy don't really understand what made his works so good. They think all you have to do is include some elves, hobbits and wizards, throw in a bit of magic and action, and boom, just as good as Tolkien if not better. But if this video teaches anything it's that what makes Tolkien's work great is mostly what makes any work of literature great, the realistic characters, the struggles they face, the decisions they make, and the effects those decisions have on those characters. It's the same things that make a Dickens novel great. Why is the Hobbit movie trilogy so much worse than the book? Because they left these things out of the movies in order to make room for ridiculous action scenes. It's not like a great novel can't have a bit of action and adventure, Treasure Island for example, but it has to enhance, not replace, what made the novel great. Show me a person who can adapt Great Expectations into a good TV series, and I'll show you someone who can adapt Lord of the Rings into a good TV series; I guess the people at Amazon haven't figured that out yet.
Excellent video, thank you
This is the first of your videos i have watched, and this was so well written. I'm probably going to binge a bunch more!
Even if Sam had not spoken so harshly to Gollum at the crucial moment and Gollum, I wonder if it would have held. The One Ring's grasp on him was powerful and not easily removed. Still, I remember reading that text about Gollum genuinely repenting and then sacrificing himself to destroy the Ring and thinking as possible alternate endings go, that would have been a good one.
Upon occasion, I have wondered about how if at certain moments a character had repented but the moment was one where the effect of their redemption wouldn't have been clear. For example, Saruman rejects Gandalf's offer at Isengard but I'm not sure if it would have made a huge difference if he had taken it. But what about if after Gandalf escapes his imprisonment on Orthanc that Saruman reflects on things and decides he has made a grave mistake. Sometimes, it is easier to decide to atone for your mistakes on your own than when having to do so with those you have wronged. What if Sauron had repented not at the end of The War of Wrath but rather at the end of The War for the Sake of the Elves? There's lots of possibilities.
Am I going soft in the head, or is the dome in the graphic at the start the Hagia Sophia? It's uncannily like the Hagia Sophia
Probably an inspiration, whether directly or indirectly. But the HS has four towers each in a ocrner, where the building depiected seems to have eight, in four pairs.
A great gem of a video 2 thumbs up
Very interesting, thank you
i repent of my unsubbery
Never too late to have a change of heart 😂
Excellent elucidation!
Nice work thanks
Your analysis is quite good. :)
Thank you 😊
Gollum's near repentance _was_ one of the most moving and successful elements of the story. And it was completely erased by the movies and replaced by a stock villain character scene that is not in the books and therefore did not need to be included in the movie. I will never understand how Tolkien lovers can love the movies so much. They ruined some of the most beautiful and moving scenes that were the essence of the story to me.
I can explain one reason why some of us like the movies. If not for the LotR Trilogy Films, I never would have read Tolkien. I tried to read TFotR, but never made it past Bilbo's party. Now after two decades of binge reading Tolkien, I will never say anything critical of those first three Jackson movies. The Hobbit is another matter.😅
@@Enerdhil LOL. Okay, that is a redeeming feature if they turned some people back to the books. 🙂
I just resent how the collective "canon" has been altered to erase and replace some of the best scenes. Another pet peeve is Elrond's advice that they would find friendship along the way being replaced by Galadriel saying the opposite ("To wear a ring of power is to be alone"). Then of course, they erased the actual friendship of the Ents (who had to be scolded by hobbits to take any action) and Faramir (who becomes a duplicate Boromir instead of the true friend along the way that he was). Like Jackson had to make it a meaner, nastier story than it was. As someone who read the books for decades before the movies came out, I was not inclined to forgive his arrogance in changing the story to make it worse.
@@Cat_Woods
I agree with everything you posted. Peter Jackson changed a lot of things, but the look and feel of Middle Earth in the films is still how I think of it when I read the books.
@@Enerdhil I'll grant you that. The New Zealand scenes, especially, definitely help in visualizing the story.
And the Huge-revelation-that-never-occurred-to-me-and-Girl-Next-Gondor-mentions-only-in-passing goes to...
The Eucatastrophe of Gollum's death had its impetus in his oath on the ring. 😱
I forget where I first ran into this idea, it's been formulated in a few different ways across the internet - but I do remember it kind of blowing my mind that I hadn't connected the oath to Gollum's death before. There's even debate on whether Frodo had a role in 'cursing' Gollum too - long before they reach Mount Doom Frodo promises that if Gollum were to attack him, he would use the Ring to command him to throw himself off a precipice or into the fire, and then on the slopes of the mountain Frodo makes good on that by telling Gollum if he touches Frodo again he shall be consumed in the "Fires of Doom."
This is such a great video. So many content creators make amazing lore videos, but the literary analysis sets yours apart.
THIS WAS SO GOOD.
❤️ 💙 💜 💖 💗 💘 ❤️
I really loved this. To me the character of Gollum can in many ways be considered the hero of the tale, he destroys the ring. What he thought, how he repented as he fell into the abyss we know not, what grace allowed him to destroy his bane is beyond our ken. As for Sam he is only human, therefore an imperfect hero, Gollum is only human, an imperfect villain, the same is true of the humanity of all of Tolkiens characters, whatever their race. One could maybe go so far as to say, Tolkien knew his own doubts and imperfections so well that he could realistically reflect them in his wonderful characters. Thanks GNG.
I'd argue against that by noting that much of what Gollum does is influenced by his own personal greed of the Ring. Not only does he fail to redeem himself like similar characters in the story, he essentially embraces his fall at the end. It's entirely by chance, or the work of Eru (or God, since Tolkien was Catholic) that Gollum falls to his doom while celebrating his seeming victory and by extension destroys the Ring. Before this, it's likely that Gollum rejected redemption during the events at Osgiliath, and by that point he had fully committed himself to evil. He's not an imperfect villain because he failed, he's an imperfect being because he refused to change.
@@mrbigglezworth42 yes indeed his failure is due to personal greed and to try to look at it from a Catholic viewpoint it is by the grace of god that he is destroyed in his attempt to claim the ring. If Bilbo stabs him when he has the chance, or if so many other chances had destroyed him earlier he is not there for the moment of eucastrophe. As Tolkien says “evil will oft evil mars.” The use of the disharmony to create an even more beautiful music, as promised in the Ainulindale is demonstrated beautifully here. The ability of god to redeem all is shown. The doomed and forgotten soul bears the ring to its destruction. I am not saying Gollum is the hero, merely that he can in many ways be considered as such. My view is that like much the professor wrote whilst praising and extolling heroism, especially that shown in the long defeat, he is keenly aware of the futility of many types of heroic behaviour. No one person is the hero in the book, some pick Sam, a great choice I am trying to point out the complexity woven into these characters.
Well done, this one!
Alas, poor Gollum.
Astoundingly deep analysis as usual, thanks for all the insight.
I have a tangential inquiry though. I never quite understood the nature of the ring's effects on longevity. Is it related to its mere existence, on how much it taints a specific wearer? Because Gollum spent a long while without it and even still he lived. Do you have any video explaining its impact on both the fëa and hröa?
Good question. Hopefully, Lexi answers it.
Yowza!
Gollum's character and story is a masterpiece in storytelling.
Most interesting. Splendid video!😁
Appreciate it! ♥
You say that Morgoth is the originator of evil. I don't think this is correct. If we can agree (we probably don't) that evil is a negative thing, the absence of good, the introduction of flaws or imperfection), we must also admit that ERU (in the world of Tolkien's Arda) created Morgoth, so ERU is the originator of evil, not Morgoth. Morgoth, yes, is (in JRRT's world) the disobedient agent through which evil was introduced, and since he emerged from the Mind of Eru, might we also refer to Melko/Melkor/Morgoth as a Spirit Puppet, not a free agent? How, in fact, is the Eru-Melkor relation discernibly different than the Melkor-Orc relationship?
Anything created by Eru is, I think you've claimed, by definition "good", but can you also consider that such definitions are at the core of the consistency issues that arise in all such discussions of Tolkien's or ANY religion-based worldview?
Eru (God) created all the animals, and many of these animals feed, reproduce, and compete for living space with violence. They liter and MAR the idyllic landscape with death and destruction, and they do this at the call of instinct, meaning they follow the nature that was instilled in them. Good and evil, therefore, are relative, because in the POV of the little fish, for example, he or she had a bad (evil) day when they were eaten, but the big fish was happy and content and filled with the good things of the world.
If, instead, we adopt a different viewpoint, and say that SIN (and not evil) is what we should be commenting on, we also may be forced to admit that our notion of free will must be much constrained (or even eliminated). Disobedience to our nature, therefore, would be the true flaw or measure of wickedness, and evil would need to be redefined and NOT equated to sin or wickedness.
The problem with even this revised notion of reality, however, will still reside in agreeing upon WHAT constitutes our natures. 99% of animals are NOT gay, while 5% (or 10%?) of human are, and Morgoth is 99% wicked. Are those 5% of humans following their natural (baked in the cake) proclivities, and is Morgoth being true to himself, and thus perfect in his own eyes?
Perhaps we need to rethink the nature of Eru?
This topic is an evolving minefield, but I agree with you. I can't stay away from it.
Thanks AGAIN for all the time, effort, and thought you pour into these videos.
Sarumans failed try of redemption always gets me although I geniuinly despise him all the time. Everything might have been different if Gwaihir had arrived Orthanc a bit later
Sauron's repentance after the War of Wrath was no deception to me. The help he would offer them in coming among the Elves was a kind of penance and a sign of his sincerity, but they could not understand him, and because of this misunderstanding they returned Sauron to the will of Melkor.
It's a very Catholic thing.
Looking to the Bible, specifically the New Testament, we can see a fine trio of approaches to the opportunity of redemption. Firstly, there is Judas, who, after betraying Jesus, is so struck with guilt that he ends his own life. Then there is Peter, who denied Christ three times, but then repented and was redeemed. In these two, we see both betray their Friend and Lord, but one refuses to accept redemption while the other is redeemed and even becomes first among the Apostles.
Then there is Pontius Pilate, who is alien to the circumstances of Jesus; he determines that He is innocent of any crime, and tries again and again to liberate Jesus, but ultimately balks when faced with the crowds and the threat of incurring the wrath of Emperor Tiberius. Had Pilate stood strong and denied the Jews, he'd be remembered today as a paragon of justice and strength, rather than the man who washed his hands of innocent blood to appease the riotous masses.
Stories of redemption and near redemption compel the human spirit, both by the hopeful triumph of the former and the painful tragedy of the latter.
Also the two thieves, both bad to the bone, one repenting, one not
@@universalflamethrower6342
Another great example.
Actually, no one would know who Pontius Pilate was had Jesus not been crucified under his watch.