I think manwe knew something was a foot , he understood the middle earth people needed hardship and villains to make them realise stuff and make advancement
I always thought that Manwe was aware that he and his other siblings had no understanding for the nature of Melkor's powers and therefore nothing to fight Melkor with (his own medicine, that probably is pride, greed, envy and revenge). That it needed something tainted by Melkor to understand and fight Melkor properly, so he 'sent' Feanor and his Noldor in a try to get him, and knew that the banishment would sharpen their determination to face him down, but in the end he knew it would need a human that was created to Melkor's very own 'death metal notes' to know how to fight him. Like you can't overpower the sound of war-drums with a harp. You need more war-drums, and those best with amplifyers added.
No. The possibility of redemption is a recurring theme in these stories. It's a commentary on the limitations of justice. Melkor must be given the opportunity to redeem himself before being given the ultimate punishment.
This highlights the basic flaws of the premise of God / Gods / Divine omnipotent and omniscient beings. Eru, Manwe and Mandos willfully allow evil and suffering to take place. It also creates irredeemable evil in the form of Melkor and Sauron. Whereas Aule, Yavanna, Orome, Tulkas and Ulmo are far more relatable, since they take action against Morgoth. I absolutely love Tolkeins world building but if there's one and only one thing I'd change, it would be this.
Manwë likely had the hardest and most thankless role of all beings in Arda. He was responsible for seeing the will of Ilúvatar done even if he didn't necessarily agree with it (and we have no way of knowing if/when this might have happened). No matter what he did or didn't do, people were going to suffer and be angry, and that can ultimately be laid at the feet of Melkor. And no, Manwë wasn't infallible, which meant the consequences of his mistakes were going to be huge.
I've gotten heat for saying my favorite Vala is Melkor; I get as much heat (and some confusion) when I say my SECOND favorite Vala is Manwe. Dude got a raw deal and tries to do his best despite that.
I was never one to pile scorn on Bird-boy's back. But I would have liked him to have gotten into the habit of mumbling to himself: "Shoulda listened to Ulmo."
It's hard for us time-bound and survival-focused beings to understand that Manwe has a specific role to play, and isn't bound to the same kind of moral logic we are. But I'm glad Tolkien laid out why releasing Melkor from prison was correct in a text published in NoMe, anyway. Imprisoning Melkor forever would be unprincipled and might not even lead to a better outcome.
The way to spur Manwe to action is through his bride. Manwe might be able to see the Children, but it is Varda who hears their calls and pleas. There's a reason she is the favorite of the Elves, and it isn't just for her stars that they love her. Frodo knows what's up. Thanks for a great video as always!
I've been trying to find an excuse to do something on Manwe/Varda Complementarity; the God of Air (ie sound) and Goddess of Light (ie vision) needing each other to function is some next-level archetypes. And yes, Varda definitely sets the agenda in this relationship 😅
I know that Tolkien was loathe to considering his writings as allegories, but here it feels like, in some way, that Tolkien was trying to work through his own faith and reconcile it with the horrors that he experience on the battlefields of The Great War. How does someone of faith reconcile the idea of a loving and benevolent creator and also witness the inhumanity and depravity that humans can inflict on one another? And, while Manwe was more equivalent to an angel than the Catholic god, he is modeled as infallible, yet uninvolved, intrinsically present, yet glaringly absent in the fate of the world. In times when a person of faith is tested, they often have to weigh these seemingly incongruent realities and reconcile them in a way that produces the least amount of doubt to their most closely held beliefs, and it feels like that is what Tolkien is doing with Manwe.
I agree. It's not quite an allegory, but the theological side of Middle Earth is certainly full of Tolkien working out his faith and its inherent paradoxes through his own subcreation.
Well, I do not think this is completely so. In-story Valar are clearly described as at fault for having adopted the isolationistic uninvolved policy. Manwe's problem is clearly stated: "he does not understand evil" - while Eru does. Men have to be faced with evil, otherwise "they get bored with good". While elves do not have this problem, still neither them nor the Valar should have had left Middle-Earth in the first place. The fact that the Valar decided to leave and abdicated their responsibility for Middle-Earth is responsible for the later developments and degeneration of it. It is the reason why elves in the end must leave it and humans must become independent of the Valar - but neither was as it should have been and was planned to be.
Manwe is like Leonard Nimoy in the Simpsons Monorail Episode. Leonard Nimoy: Well, my work is done here. Barney Gumble: What do you mean your work is done? You didn't do anything. LN: [chuckles] Didn't I?
I think part of the reason Tolkien’s explanation seems to fall short is its radical premise. Few are willing to accept, to the fullest extent of its logical consequences, that hate and evil must be met with love and restraint.
Sounds right to me; I think a lot of people can follow the *logic* of it fine, but the conclusions *feel* wrong - either too coldly indifferent or too out of touch, maybe just 'unnatural' (which, one could argue, might be the whole point when it comes to the Valar!)
The moment I liked the best about Manwe is at a very tense moment of the first age and I think it says a lot about the character. When Fingolfin challenged Morgoth at the gates Manwe observed the scene with the eagles without interventions. Seeing Fingolfin opposing the dark lord as the champion of the "justs" is something he probably respected highly but to intervene in such an act would have been directly playing against the self-determination of the elves by trying to get advantage of such dramatic situation. When Fingolfin fell Manwe intervened with the eagles to get Fingolfin's body to a safe place (but not trying directly to seize the jewels for himself). Doing so Manwe's tracing a hard line right in front of Morgoth saying something like "ENOUGH!". Morgoth get back indoor, hurt and immensely upset by that whole situation even if he won and he will never get out of the gates again by himself!
Great job as usual. Although I'm surprised you didn't use the bit about Eru gently scolding Manwë (and the Valar) for his (their) decision to bring the elves to Aman. ----- In "Nature of Middle-Earth" - Part 2, chapter XV - 'Elvish Reincarnation' (pp 246-247) - "The Converse of Manwë with Eru concerning the death of Elves and how it might be redressed", we have a discussion between Eru and Manwë about the fate of the elves that happen to die, where Eru says: "...Have I not given the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substances thereof, to shape it at their will under My will? Ye have not been backward in these things. As for My First-born, have you not removed great numbers of them to Aman, from the Middle-Earth in which I set them?" To which Manwë replied: "This we have done, for fear of Melkor, and with good intent, though not without misgivings." ---- In the second comment that followed the main text we read: "The Valar feared to meddle with the Children, since they were not in the design of Eä in which they had assisted. Also Eru had *forbidden* them to coerce their wills, daunting their minds by dread of the power of the Valar, or even amazing them with wonder of their beauty and majesty." ----- It seems to me Eru was kind of reminding Manwë of his duties, or perhaps testing him as He did Aulë about the dwarves, or simply reassuring him.
Very important points -- I had a few of these in my mind while writing, but thought they were more appropriate to a consideration of the Valar's actions generally. I also have a hard time discerning what Eru would consider the line between 'inexcusable neglect' and 'daunting/meddling.' Surely there has to be SOME middle ground...!
I never thought he was wrong about the release of Melkor, since it followed the terms set. Though maybe he should have kept a closer eye on him after he was released... What i could never understand though was the decision to just relocate the elves to Valinor and leave any that didn't want to come + the whole rest of the world to Melkor. And the one offness of it. Elwe got lost in the forest and half his people didn't want to abandon the search and come to Valinor?! Oh well, tough luck, they're stuck with Melkor for ever, along with all elves who didn't want to leave, all the dwarves, ents, animals etc. And when men show up, they'll just join the unhappy lot. I mean, suppose the noldors never rebelled, then what?! Melkor had for ever dominion over 75% of the world and all creatures except the elves that were taken to Valinor are for ever in his dominion?! It makes no sense... But then again i also understand the logic of "if we start an all out war of power it'll break the world to pieces and nothing will survive". I just feel like there must have been some better 3rd option...
We aren’t in the second theme, though, of which Manwë was the chief. The mistake of the second theme was facing might with might, which played into Melkor’s hand. The third theme was “slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came”.
what a wonderul conclusion. i have been a paramedic for 27yrs. many many days you are out there doing your best and knowing that it wont be enough. or worse knowing that you will never know if it was enough. being such a small part of a the history of a small species in a small planet is an act of faith everyday. you may never know how what you do will ripple through time and space. all you can do is try your best and hope that somewhere/time some far distant ripple of your best will find the shore it was meant for and that, when it does, it will be enough.
The key to me is to think of the Valar acting by force the same way Gandalf describes how the Ring would corrupt him. Manwe would strive to do good out of pity and love, but if he did so then the lies Morgoth whispered in Feanor's ear about the Valar as tyrants would cease to be lies. As finite beings, they are as corruptible as Morgoth, and in many ways their corruption might be even worse. Rather than inspiring free agents to war heroically against evil, you would simply have two armies of slaves: the slaves of Morgoth would fight against the slaves of Manwe, and all would suffer and die in the wars of two tyrants who each believed their vision of Arda was the superior vision.
Manwe's a slumlord. Arda's a slum. Benign neglect is still neglect. Sauron 2024: Hands-on cruelty for uncertain times. A hobbit in every pot. A ring for every king. Make the dungeons full again!
Eru did not want the Valar to directly intervene in the affairs of Middle earth and in the lives of elves and men. It was technically a bad idea for the Valar to send Orome to spirit the elves away to Valanor from their indigenous home. When push came to shove, it was Eonwe the Maia who was sanctioned by Eru / Manwe to aid middle earth against Melkor gone wild. Manwe did his disconnected part perfectly and by Eru’s design. And yes, freeing Melkor was an inside job. It’s a delicate subject but Eru created the discord in the music with very conscious intent. Very different than the Christian legends and myths that inspired his own faith.
I see a lot of critiques of Manwe/the Valar that fail to account for what would have happened if they made different choices. In many cases, it really does seem like there were no 'perfect' options.
Not the music that Eru envisioned, but I believe it was the one Eru intended. If the Valar never intervened the Maia would still need to come to Middle Earth to counter Melkor. Melian & Orome & maybe Olorin would still have played a huge role in protecting the elves and men in Belariand. I believe the moriquendi lived a more natural and balanced “elf” life and could have faired better without the self called Caliquendi with their demigod powers challenging the god of evil to open combat and all the accompanying complications instigated thusly. But that’s why Feanor is not “evil” with all his murderous treachery, he is still, an inevitable, fantastic, and essential inclusion to the music.
I couldn’t have agreed more about one with the greater knowledge having less space to act personally. Manwe and Mandos are of course god-like beings whose dealings with mortals might sometimes seem incomprehensible but the philosophy behind this can be seen easily with the case of Melian and Gandalf. Melian doesn’t slap Thingol and dominate him by force to shut his mouth when Thingol gives to Beren a kingdom-ending quest. She still gives the choice to Beleg when she states to him that his blade is cursed and will bring great harm rather than taking the sword from him by using her authority as the Queen. She takes the approach of an advisor, one who holds back to set the conditions necessary for the greater good to be fulfilled. Melian of course is an Ainu and thus probably knows a lot of things about the future anyway. Same is true about the Gandalf the White who is now much more free to look into the future and is increased in wisdom. Both characters display certain distancy to others and are aware of their station as an instrument of fate. This can be best seen I think when Gandalf watches over his allies from a high place at the Black Gate from distance and not taking the active force himself and watching as his duty in Middle Earth is about to come to an end.
@@EnerdhilYes that is the explanation of their ability of foresight. They reside the memory of events they heard back when Ea was being built and thus they can possess precognitive powers. Thus Elven foresight and prophecies are just some lucky-guessing. Strangely, I believe this philosophy also applies to some wisest elves. Galadriel knew for example that Boromir was in vain and about to get himself in a bad situation ( as Gandalf states after being incarnated ) but she never does something to actually change it
Remember when gandalf the white refused to help the hobbits retake the shire. Gandalf had a mission. His mission was over. The rest was up to the hobbits for good or ill. Anything else would exceed his mission and authority. Thats why he went to bombadil afterwards..to remove himself from the story. The Ainur are not here to rule men and elves, are not here to solve our problems. They rule Arda itself, not the children. They must tread lightly or take the risk of becoming more like Sauron or Melkor. This is what happened to Saruman.
What would Melian have done differently had she been a human Queen? I don't think she would smack Thingol anyway. I also doubt she would have told Beleg what to do with the knowledge of Anglachel if she were human. Those responses were perfectly female.
If Melkor really wanted Arda unmade into fiery chaos, he could have just put me in charge with instructions to do my best to keep things running smoothly. 😂
Unfit beyond all belief. Melkor corrupts all of Arda, twists it's living beings (including the Children of Iluvatar) and Manwe has to be *begged* by Earendil to do anything about it. Ar-Pharazon lands an army on the shores of Valinor, and Manwe has Eru on speed dial calling him in to hit the world so hard that it goes from flat to round. But even the early failings raise questions. With Varda at his side, Manwe can allegedly see *anything* on Arda, just as Varda can hear it. Yet, somehow, Manwe utterly failed to notice the unlight of Ungoliant as she and Melkor marched north across Aman into Valinor and killed the Two Trees. Feanor was justifiably angry over his father Finwe's murder by Melkor. Manwe certainly did nothing to prevent it. Indeed, a darker interpretation of Manwe is that he manipulates the Children of Iluvatar to fight his wars for him, so that he can maintain the pretense of restraint and neutrality. Feanor made a great tool for Manwe, because his easily angered personality meant that he would go fight Melkor when Manwe wouldn't. The Noldor were also tools, and allowing the First Kinslaying gave Manwe an excuse to exile them to Middle-earth so that they would fight Melkor in a protracted series of wars. The Istari were explicitly intended to manipulate Men into opposing Sauron, which is why they were denied their ability to change shape or full powers as Maiar. At every turn, Manwe uses others as pawns so that he doesn't have to get his own hands dirty. More like a mortal king than he would like to admit (or have anybody tell him).
Calling the wizards manipulators is a worst-case reading. They were sent to inspire men, only 1 (perhaps 3) succeeded in doing this. Sauruman was corrupted by Sauron lying to him about the self destructive nature of humans and elves. Radagast loved the world too much and lost his sense of duty. Only Gandalf succeeded. He gave up his life to inspire the fellowship and keep them going. He didn't know he would be brought back by Aluvatar. He gave up his immortal life to save the fellowship
@@CyrodiilCome - Not helping the argument. Pretty sure that Manwe and the other Valar could have sent regular orders to the Istari in order to keep them on-duty. Instead, at best it can be said that this was a *very* long-running reality TV show that Manwe and Varda (and probably the rest of the Valar) were watching from their perch atop Taniquetil. Curumo/Saruman in particular was inexcusable. He had basically the same background as Mairon/Sauron, as a servant of Aule, and the same tendencies (impose order). Olorin/Gandalf was the only one who really seemed to focus on the actual mission at hand. The rest were kind of just doing their own things. To this day we don't even know if the Blue Wizards hindered or helped Sauron in the East. He certainly had vast numbers of Easterling troops despite their efforts. At minimum, the Valar should have sent Eonwe, without a secret identity. Better would have been to send Orome and/or Tulkas to smack Sauron down *hard* and drag him back to Valinor for judgment. Which, you might recall, is what he was supposed to do at the end of the War of Wrath. Eonwe deserved punishment for trusting Sauron to obey without duress. That's like a cop expecting a murderer to just hand themselves into law enforcement. The moral of the story being that the Ainur are useless idiots.
I think the Legendarium can be characterized as an exercise in speculative christopaganism. Manwe is a very good king who understands his job description, but his mistake with the elves was enormous. He directly messed up Illuvatar's plan by removing so many elves to Valinor. Also, the Numenor thing was a huge mistake as well. The Valar created a race of superhuman freaks and unleashed them on the people of Middle Earth. By the time Manwe has the chance to learn from his mistakes, the consequences are so huge thats its too late to fix them.
This video got me thinking of the fact that Manwë was intended to refine and improve upon what Melkor began. Maybe it was a great wisdom of Manwë to not act so much. Melkor spent all of his strength in the years leading up to the end of the first age. Manwë continued on and can refine and improve upon what Melkor created over the many long years of the world that stretch beyond the length of Tolkien's writings.
It's interesting how Manwe and the rest of the Valar (for the most part, there are some like Ulmo take a more involved role in Arda) are almost like a deistic form of god. They don't seem to interfere a lot with the day to day goings on of Arda.
You would think so. The Silmarillion suggests they were inherent to Yavanna's part in the theme, and says they are 'spirits' who will take the form of animate trees. Almost like a non evil version of werewolves, I guess.
Actually, I never thought about the Ents not being listed among the Children of Eru Iluvatar. It might explain why Tolkien exterminated the Entwives off the face of Arda.😔
@@GirlNextGondor Can wolves actually speak? Ents can. They obviously have souls to me. Werewolves are just corrupted fauna with evil inclinations, aren't they?
It reminds me of Zeus in the Iliad. He wants to save his son, Sarpedon, fated to die, but though he can by his own power, he will not, because all the gods have decided to abide by what the fates have decreed. He could defy the fates, he is that powerful, but he will not, because as Hera is first to warn him, order has to be maintained among even the Gods. Hierarchy and roles pertain especially among the immortals.
There's a line about Tulkas et al being frustrated with Manwe's choice to release Melkor, since they didn't trust him, but they went along with it because 'those who would defend authority from rebellion must not themselves rebel.' I think a similar statement could be made about Manwe/Zeus in their roles as wielders of *legitimate* authority (obviously not the only way Zeus ever shows up, but I think in the context you're describing that's the side of him we're seeing.) If your role is to uphold order and justice, you must not yourself subvert that order.
I think an interesting thing of Manwe is it is said he had the best understanding of Aluvatar's plan. Not that he fully understands, just understands the most.
If you are brought in to enforce a set of rules, this adds a degree of rigidity to how one can act. Being a spirit brought into the world for this purpose, would make one's mental capacity particularly rigid. Manwe's hands are tied in multiple ways: a narrow range of experience, free will, and the problem of wisdom.
In a reasonable universe, the Valar would have taken responsibility for their fallen brother, and the employees he corrupted. I get why they didn't...but I think they still should have.
If the Valor stepped in and fought Morgoth then elves man and dwarf would never become the great races they became. It wasn't their right to directly interfere.
Great video! Here is hoping that through some path that even the eyes of the eagles can't detect, this "Like" will yet prove to be worth the effort of it's making!
The Ainur aren't Jeffersonian clockmaker deities who just set the machine in motion. Witness the fact that the Sun and Moon have to be actively guided every single day. Thus everything in Middle-earth. When a leaf falls, it's not because gravity "just works" but because the Ainur constantly keep it working as it's supposed to. And Manwë has to oversee all of this.
How Tulkas would have handled Sauron: "Hold my beer," he says to Eönwë. "Be back in a few." He comes back a week later, holding Sauron by the scruff of the neck, and deposits him in front of Manwe's throne. "Tricky thing, kept changing shape on me." He then drops Saruman right next to Sauron. "Thought I'd bring him back, too. It'll save us some trouble."
Mandos knows all: He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar.
Interesting video, and I take your point that Manwe has a thankless task that wasn't originally supposed to be his role. I find it hard to not see the Valar as having been rather neglectful where men were concerned though, as their rationale for leaving us to Melkor's mercy seems to be "we promised not to interfere with the Elves, and Men live on the same continent, so...sucks to be them." The thing I find hardest to swallow is the grudging forgiveness granted to the Noldor, who were strongly advised to return to the Undying Lands and be at peace, but were not actually allowed to go home except for visits and were required to live on Tol Eressea. And Tolkien's discussion of this in The Nature of Middle-Earth is rather weak - basically it hangs on "Eru is ok with it, and he can't be wrong" when there have been a number of times that Eru has allowed the Valar to do what they wanted rather than what he had envisaged. In the end I guess it come down to things having to be certain ways to make the stories work. If the Valar intervene early in the Silmarillion then it's a short book, after all...
Lexi, your videos are always so insightful, and I learn something new every time. I'm always happy when a Girl Next Gondor video shows up in my notifications!
Very good, thanks. But since you mentioned the Vanyar at the end - I can't help but feel their existence was pointless. Basically, all they did was sit at Manwe's feet and... do nothing. They might as well have been furniture or floor tiles. If I'd have been one of them, I would have said "Screw this pure boredom, I'm going back with the Noldor".
Life and living itself is precious enough, no matter what you do. Obviously, individuals who do not or cannot grow further (because they are supposedly already perfect or rather, complete) do not make for entertaining stories usually.
Given the examples of Indis, Amarie, Elenwe, and whoever spawned Glorfindel, I like to think those Vanyar who were susceptible to boredom had already moved on to claim themselves some Noldorin, uh... fellowship... before the Flight 💖
It is perfectly logical why the powers of the world do not protect elves from other elves, or men from other men, or wild beast, etc. But it really seems morally bankrupt to just leave one of your kind to ravage the children of Illuvatar. Doubly so when you yourself unleash that monster of a being upon them without them deserving any of it.
The hesitancy to deal more directly with Melkor in the early days, for fear of the destruction and loss it would cause to 'their' project of Arda, is one of the points Tolkien identifies as a moral failure of the Valar.
The idea I had the most trouble with when reading the books was how inept, aloof, and ineffectual Manwe and the Valar in general seem to be. These are supposed to be bar none the greatest agents of Eru in Arda. And yet, it looks like they are generally content to let the world go to hell, so long as they get to watch it all burn from their ivory tower. Some Valar are less despicable than others, sure, but on the whole, I can't help but see them ultimately as losers who fail their chief task: ensuring the life and freedom of Elves and Men. Without that, everything else is pretty pointless; what is the point of a flawless Arda if Elves and Men are violated, enslaved, and led to utmost destruction?
''God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; He judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, And accept the persons of the wicked? Defend the poor and fatherless: Do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: Rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; They walk on in darkness: All the foundations of the earth are out of course.''
Manwe and Melkor were very similar in the beginning, however their roles tied them to their fates. Melkor doing evil acts not for anything other then evils sake which enslaved him to it towards the end of his story. Manwe is not enslaved to good, but he does the best he can for good even though the taint of Melkor is within existence itself. The difference is struggle vs impulsiveness.
Manwe doesn't ''rule''. He observes. The only time he calls upon Iluvatar to intervene in the affairs of Arda is when something happens that might endanger the Valar.
Despite your reasons,I still think Manwe is an awful King and Vala A contrast of what he has vs what has he done: -won the spiritual and genetic lottery -was given power over all the Valar -was given lordship over the entire universe -was given knowledge of the afterlife of Mankind VS what has he done -let Morgoth go free despite being advised not to -after Feanor told him not to trust Morgoth,he set him free anyway,got his father killed,than after the consequences of his actions and warnigs given demands Feanor to give up the Silmarils -after Morgoth was free waited millennia before stopping him -after Morgoth was defeated let Sauron go free because reasons -after Sauron corrupted Numenor,he failed to smite him Elendil,Isildur and Gil Galad did a better job at defeating him than a divine archangel -devised a plan so impossible and unachivable for the wizards so much so that got one killed,one traitor and 3 others failed -i imagine that Gandalf too would have done a better job at defeating Sauron if he had the one ring As you can see his regime was one of failure after failure,most of Arda s problems could have been completely avoided if he wasnt so terrible at being both a Vala and a king
Ulmo would have done a far better job ruling... Like how was Manwe supposed to be the one who understood Eru's plan the most when he couldnt even comprehend evil?
I think Ulmo excels partly *because* he's in the second-in-command role. Although being arguably Manwe's closest colleague and supporter, he's also among those who most often acts against (at least the literal interpretation of) his mandates. They seem to balance each other out!
I can't help but reflect that the other Valar who spoke up for Melkor after his first imprisonment was none other than Nienna; and if Manwe was the chief proponent of Eru in the second part of the music, Nienna was so in the third. I cannot think this is by accident. But the other thing I kept thinking was Gandalf's line to Denethor "For I am also a Steward. Did you not know?" For Stewardship seems a very useful concept in which to describe Manwe's role. He holds Ea in trust, but it is not his.
I think Eru’s will was for self determination and free will for all humans, elves, dwarves, and even Morgoth and Sauron, etc and that came with a price both positive and negative. (with little a little nudging in the right direction along the way) Because every time the Valar had to step in with force, then much of the world was destroyed, whether it was at the end of the first age or the end of the second. The price of divine intervention was extremely costly. So Eru worked subtly through his creations whether it was Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo or Gollum.
Manwe, and Melkor, both played their part in the Great Music. Nothing they did or did not do hampered or helped Eru's design for the world, its story, or its denoument. They exercised their own free will throughout it all, yet all of their choices were already known from before their own creation and the creation of the world. That is difficult for us finite creatures to grasp, but the story of Arda was written by an infinite Being who could take all things into account and use them to achieve His ultimate end. Thus did Eru reveal to Melkor at the conclusion of the Music.
@@michaelogrady232 I feel like that really goes against the concept of free will, or more specifically goes against the idea of free will making a difference or mattering at all. if eru really already knew everything even better beginning or made things go a certain way regardless of the actions of those within arda what's the point of them having free will at all? very depressing imo living beings are not tools of a god or gods
@viper-the-great Think of it like a guy betting on football games. He always picks the winning team. Nothing is rigged. No players are manipulated. How does he do it? He's omniscient. He just knows. And with that knowledge, he can make plans.
@@michaelogrady232 r u saying he knows because he can see all the possible outcomes and as such has knowledge of everything that MIGHT happen or does he literally know what specific will happen every time? cuz one of those clearly goes against the concept of free will
@viper-the-great What is your concept of free will? Neither of those scenarios goes against my concept of free will, which is freedom to choose possible things without interference. How does an omniscient Being who knows all of your specific choices from before creation interfere with you making those choices? And how does an omnipotent Being factoring all those choices into an ultimate plan interfere with the making of those choices? I do admit this was once a tough one for me, as well, until I came face to face with me being a finite being trying to figure out an infinite Being. Then the concepts of free will and predestination stopped being mutually exclusive, and became complimentary to each other. A humbling experience.
@@michaelogrady232 again I have to ask r u referring to an omniscient being being aware of all possible choices one might make it knowing with certainty the specific choice one will make in every circumstance they ever encounter in life? if the latter it would mean that your choice was not a choice at all but essentially a design forced on u by that being, Fate creation, whatever you want to call it. perhaps the very fact that we only ever have a set amount of and specific individual choices for anything in itself speaks to a lack of freedom or true power to really choose based on our own individual thoughts and feelings and chosen desires. I'm not a pawn to be implemented in a way set by another in some grand plan. I believe that our personality is chosen by us as individuals ie a caring and kind soul or harsh bitter angry one just as some examples. I am what I am by my power of choice. not to say other things can't influence but ultimately that is if we let it. how do the concepts of good and evil heaven and hell damnation and redemption oneness and individuality fit into your view of these two ideas of free will and determinism? also a personal question if I may, what is the point of living if not to try to leave your mark on the world as long as it lasts and to be remembered as long as that and people saying you truly made a difference and helped shape the way of things? we only get one life that's about us and to show what we can do and are special and wonderful and without which creation would be worse off. what's worse then bring just another grain of sand among countless others? I've always had a profound hatred of the idea that we as individuals don't matter and can't reshape things and leave a permanent mark on creation, that we are just an instrument of some grand design following a path decided long before our creation. even more so when we the ones have to live it and live with it. sorry if this is very long to read or confrontational. I am ok with hearing other views it's just a topic that I have very deep thoughts and opinions about
I am willing to cut Manwe and the Valar generally some slack because it was the FIRST TIME there was evil, then the FIRST TIME there were incarnates, and likewise greed and vengeance and obsession and murder. I still think a little "gentle chiding," and maybe a bit more, is justified.
The big question is, why didn't Eru give his King a bit more wisdom and inclination to listen to his peers? Those seem mighty good qualities for any king.
@@CyrodiilCome yes, but no, but yes? I mean, the good guys won at the price of colossal heaps of suffering, pain and Arda being... ostile. Then again, said pain and suffering made every deed worthy.
Manwe is like a professor of music who gets to watch over a symphony. Ensuring everything happens at the right time, at he end he will get to ding his triangle once. Otherwise his wonderful skill is seldom seen. Thanks GNG
We all know the real power (pun intended) behind the throne was Varda. That's why Melkor desired her for himself, he knew who wears the pants. What's Manwë but a glorified ornithologist? Haha, just kidding.
Manwë was such a king of Arda that a lower level Ainur ( Sauron ) not only became a treat in might but almost took over middle earth! I’m sorry but he was a terrible king.
I always took it that while evil knows itself and good, and can thus fake it (lie), good is blind to evil. Only after a great many times did Manwe seem to wake up and say, "shit, this guy keeps stabbing everyone in the back. Should I do something?" It was a hole in his "programming," so to speak; or, think of it as moral colorblindless; if you cannot see it, you cannot react to it.
I think manwe knew something was a foot , he understood the middle earth people needed hardship and villains to make them realise stuff and make advancement
I love this wtiting and lore more than anything. But man, Melkor is probably one of the most tragic characters ever created. It's not like it's easy to feel sorry for him, but it's possible to recognise his tragedy in the form of being doomed to an evil path right from the beginning. He just wanted to show his everyone his metalcore but they all wanted classical. :(
Since Manwe understands best Eru's plan, then --- letting Melkor free was an inside job.
I mean, he's not wrong....
I think manwe knew something was a foot , he understood the middle earth people needed hardship and villains to make them realise stuff and make advancement
I always thought that Manwe was aware that he and his other siblings had no understanding for the nature of Melkor's powers and therefore nothing to fight Melkor with (his own medicine, that probably is pride, greed, envy and revenge). That it needed something tainted by Melkor to understand and fight Melkor properly, so he 'sent' Feanor and his Noldor in a try to get him, and knew that the banishment would sharpen their determination to face him down, but in the end he knew it would need a human that was created to Melkor's very own 'death metal notes' to know how to fight him. Like you can't overpower the sound of war-drums with a harp. You need more war-drums, and those best with amplifyers added.
No. The possibility of redemption is a recurring theme in these stories. It's a commentary on the limitations of justice. Melkor must be given the opportunity to redeem himself before being given the ultimate punishment.
This highlights the basic flaws of the premise of God / Gods / Divine omnipotent and omniscient beings.
Eru, Manwe and Mandos willfully allow evil and suffering to take place. It also creates irredeemable evil in the form of Melkor and Sauron.
Whereas Aule, Yavanna, Orome, Tulkas and Ulmo are far more relatable, since they take action against Morgoth.
I absolutely love Tolkeins world building but if there's one and only one thing I'd change, it would be this.
Manwë likely had the hardest and most thankless role of all beings in Arda. He was responsible for seeing the will of Ilúvatar done even if he didn't necessarily agree with it (and we have no way of knowing if/when this might have happened). No matter what he did or didn't do, people were going to suffer and be angry, and that can ultimately be laid at the feet of Melkor. And no, Manwë wasn't infallible, which meant the consequences of his mistakes were going to be huge.
I've gotten heat for saying my favorite Vala is Melkor; I get as much heat (and some confusion) when I say my SECOND favorite Vala is Manwe. Dude got a raw deal and tries to do his best despite that.
@@GirlNextGondor no compassion for this self-righteous moron.
I was never one to pile scorn on Bird-boy's back. But I would have liked him to have gotten into the habit of mumbling to himself: "Shoulda listened to Ulmo."
I feel like Melkor's evil would have spread even if they kept him locked away, and would maybe even taint Valinor before Middle-Earth
Better yet is Ulmo's habit of muttering 'I TOLD him so!' on the rare occasions he deigns to approach Valinor 🌊
Or the equally valid "I REALLY gotta stop listening to Aule when he vouches for people."
@@EvilSandwichKind, noble, trustworthy guy that Aule... _Terrible_ judge of character, though.
Or how about supervising Eonwe a little better?
"So, where's Sauron?"
"I told him to show up...."
"Find. Him. NOW!"
It's hard for us time-bound and survival-focused beings to understand that Manwe has a specific role to play, and isn't bound to the same kind of moral logic we are.
But I'm glad Tolkien laid out why releasing Melkor from prison was correct in a text published in NoMe, anyway. Imprisoning Melkor forever would be unprincipled and might not even lead to a better outcome.
The only thing more terrifying than Morgoth, is Openly Evil Manwe
Babe wake up! She's gonna talk about the king of the giant birds!
And the little tweety ones too!
The way to spur Manwe to action is through his bride. Manwe might be able to see the Children, but it is Varda who hears their calls and pleas. There's a reason she is the favorite of the Elves, and it isn't just for her stars that they love her. Frodo knows what's up.
Thanks for a great video as always!
I've been trying to find an excuse to do something on Manwe/Varda Complementarity; the God of Air (ie sound) and Goddess of Light (ie vision) needing each other to function is some next-level archetypes.
And yes, Varda definitely sets the agenda in this relationship 😅
Spot on!
Who doesn't love Gilthoneil Elbereth? She's so lovely,and the creator of the stars.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 Melkor
I know that Tolkien was loathe to considering his writings as allegories, but here it feels like, in some way, that Tolkien was trying to work through his own faith and reconcile it with the horrors that he experience on the battlefields of The Great War.
How does someone of faith reconcile the idea of a loving and benevolent creator and also witness the inhumanity and depravity that humans can inflict on one another? And, while Manwe was more equivalent to an angel than the Catholic god, he is modeled as infallible, yet uninvolved, intrinsically present, yet glaringly absent in the fate of the world.
In times when a person of faith is tested, they often have to weigh these seemingly incongruent realities and reconcile them in a way that produces the least amount of doubt to their most closely held beliefs, and it feels like that is what Tolkien is doing with Manwe.
I agree. It's not quite an allegory, but the theological side of Middle Earth is certainly full of Tolkien working out his faith and its inherent paradoxes through his own subcreation.
Copetholic.
Well, I do not think this is completely so. In-story Valar are clearly described as at fault for having adopted the isolationistic uninvolved policy. Manwe's problem is clearly stated: "he does not understand evil" - while Eru does. Men have to be faced with evil, otherwise "they get bored with good". While elves do not have this problem, still neither them nor the Valar should have had left Middle-Earth in the first place. The fact that the Valar decided to leave and abdicated their responsibility for Middle-Earth is responsible for the later developments and degeneration of it. It is the reason why elves in the end must leave it and humans must become independent of the Valar - but neither was as it should have been and was planned to be.
Manwe is like Leonard Nimoy in the Simpsons Monorail Episode.
Leonard Nimoy:
Well, my work is done here.
Barney Gumble:
What do you mean your work is done? You didn't do anything.
LN: [chuckles] Didn't I?
I think part of the reason Tolkien’s explanation seems to fall short is its radical premise. Few are willing to accept, to the fullest extent of its logical consequences, that hate and evil must be met with love and restraint.
Sounds right to me; I think a lot of people can follow the *logic* of it fine, but the conclusions *feel* wrong - either too coldly indifferent or too out of touch, maybe just 'unnatural' (which, one could argue, might be the whole point when it comes to the Valar!)
The moment I liked the best about Manwe is at a very tense moment of the first age and I think it says a lot about the character. When Fingolfin challenged Morgoth at the gates Manwe observed the scene with the eagles without interventions. Seeing Fingolfin opposing the dark lord as the champion of the "justs" is something he probably respected highly but to intervene in such an act would have been directly playing against the self-determination of the elves by trying to get advantage of such dramatic situation. When Fingolfin fell Manwe intervened with the eagles to get Fingolfin's body to a safe place (but not trying directly to seize the jewels for himself). Doing so Manwe's tracing a hard line right in front of Morgoth saying something like "ENOUGH!". Morgoth get back indoor, hurt and immensely upset by that whole situation even if he won and he will never get out of the gates again by himself!
Great job as usual. Although I'm surprised you didn't use the bit about Eru gently scolding Manwë (and the Valar) for his (their) decision to bring the elves to Aman.
-----
In "Nature of Middle-Earth" - Part 2, chapter XV - 'Elvish Reincarnation' (pp 246-247) - "The Converse of Manwë with Eru concerning the death of Elves and how it might be redressed", we have a discussion between Eru and Manwë about the fate of the elves that happen to die, where Eru says:
"...Have I not given the Valar the rule of Arda, and power over all the substances thereof, to shape it at their will under My will? Ye have not been backward in these things. As for My First-born, have you not removed great numbers of them to Aman, from the Middle-Earth in which I set them?"
To which Manwë replied:
"This we have done, for fear of Melkor, and with good intent, though not without misgivings."
----
In the second comment that followed the main text we read:
"The Valar feared to meddle with the Children, since they were not in the design of Eä in which they had assisted. Also Eru had *forbidden* them to coerce their wills, daunting their minds by dread of the power of the Valar, or even amazing them with wonder of their beauty and majesty."
-----
It seems to me Eru was kind of reminding Manwë of his duties, or perhaps testing him as He did Aulë about the dwarves, or simply reassuring him.
Thanks for posting these interesting quotes
Very important points -- I had a few of these in my mind while writing, but thought they were more appropriate to a consideration of the Valar's actions generally. I also have a hard time discerning what Eru would consider the line between 'inexcusable neglect' and 'daunting/meddling.' Surely there has to be SOME middle ground...!
I never thought he was wrong about the release of Melkor, since it followed the terms set. Though maybe he should have kept a closer eye on him after he was released...
What i could never understand though was the decision to just relocate the elves to Valinor and leave any that didn't want to come + the whole rest of the world to Melkor. And the one offness of it. Elwe got lost in the forest and half his people didn't want to abandon the search and come to Valinor?! Oh well, tough luck, they're stuck with Melkor for ever, along with all elves who didn't want to leave, all the dwarves, ents, animals etc. And when men show up, they'll just join the unhappy lot. I mean, suppose the noldors never rebelled, then what?! Melkor had for ever dominion over 75% of the world and all creatures except the elves that were taken to Valinor are for ever in his dominion?! It makes no sense... But then again i also understand the logic of "if we start an all out war of power it'll break the world to pieces and nothing will survive". I just feel like there must have been some better 3rd option...
God bless you and your work young lady 👍👍👍😇😇😇
Are you talking about Eru?
We aren’t in the second theme, though, of which Manwë was the chief. The mistake of the second theme was facing might with might, which played into Melkor’s hand. The third theme was “slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came”.
what a wonderul conclusion. i have been a paramedic for 27yrs. many many days you are out there doing your best and knowing that it wont be enough. or worse knowing that you will never know if it was enough. being such a small part of a the history of a small species in a small planet is an act of faith everyday. you may never know how what you do will ripple through time and space. all you can do is try your best and hope that somewhere/time some far distant ripple of your best will find the shore it was meant for and that, when it does, it will be enough.
''For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the powers, against the rulers of this world, against the VALAR ! ''
The key to me is to think of the Valar acting by force the same way Gandalf describes how the Ring would corrupt him. Manwe would strive to do good out of pity and love, but if he did so then the lies Morgoth whispered in Feanor's ear about the Valar as tyrants would cease to be lies. As finite beings, they are as corruptible as Morgoth, and in many ways their corruption might be even worse. Rather than inspiring free agents to war heroically against evil, you would simply have two armies of slaves: the slaves of Morgoth would fight against the slaves of Manwe, and all would suffer and die in the wars of two tyrants who each believed their vision of Arda was the superior vision.
Manwe's a slumlord. Arda's a slum. Benign neglect is still neglect.
Sauron 2024: Hands-on cruelty for uncertain times. A hobbit in every pot. A ring for every king. Make the dungeons full again!
He's got my vote!
2:12 The best ruler is the one who doesn't do much.
The best ruler is the one who doesn't want to lead
2:20 If he hadn't done this... sure. This would be the Way.
A+ thumbnail game, instant watch
Never really thought much about Manwë before now, at least in this way. Very interesting!
Eru did not want the Valar to directly intervene in the affairs of Middle earth and in the lives of elves and men. It was technically a bad idea for the Valar to send Orome to spirit the elves away to Valanor from their indigenous home. When push came to shove, it was Eonwe the Maia who was sanctioned by Eru / Manwe to aid middle earth against Melkor gone wild. Manwe did his disconnected part perfectly and by Eru’s design. And yes, freeing Melkor was an inside job. It’s a delicate subject but Eru created the discord in the music with very conscious intent. Very different than the Christian legends and myths that inspired his own faith.
It is worth asking, what would an Arda which did not feature many of the Elves withdrawing to Valinor look like?
I see a lot of critiques of Manwe/the Valar that fail to account for what would have happened if they made different choices. In many cases, it really does seem like there were no 'perfect' options.
Not the music that Eru envisioned, but I believe it was the one Eru intended. If the Valar never intervened the Maia would still need to come to Middle Earth to counter Melkor. Melian & Orome & maybe Olorin would still have played a huge role in protecting the elves and men in Belariand. I believe the moriquendi lived a more natural and balanced “elf” life and could have faired better without the self called Caliquendi with their demigod powers challenging the god of evil to open combat and all the accompanying complications instigated thusly. But that’s why Feanor is not “evil” with all his murderous treachery, he is still, an inevitable, fantastic, and essential inclusion to the music.
Great job, Lexi! Thank you!
12:40 "...I'm gonna go with my instincts on this one. Saddle up, partner." - Dumb and Dumber
This kind of explains why the Eagles, Manwe's creatures, could not be relied upon to give aid to the people of Middle Earth.
I couldn’t have agreed more about one with the greater knowledge having less space to act personally. Manwe and Mandos are of course god-like beings whose dealings with mortals might sometimes seem incomprehensible but the philosophy behind this can be seen easily with the case of Melian and Gandalf. Melian doesn’t slap Thingol and dominate him by force to shut his mouth when Thingol gives to Beren a kingdom-ending quest. She still gives the choice to Beleg when she states to him that his blade is cursed and will bring great harm rather than taking the sword from him by using her authority as the Queen. She takes the approach of an advisor, one who holds back to set the conditions necessary for the greater good to be fulfilled. Melian of course is an Ainu and thus probably knows a lot of things about the future anyway. Same is true about the Gandalf the White who is now much more free to look into the future and is increased in wisdom. Both characters display certain distancy to others and are aware of their station as an instrument of fate. This can be best seen I think when Gandalf watches over his allies from a high place at the Black Gate from distance and not taking the active force himself and watching as his duty in Middle Earth is about to come to an end.
Maiar participated in the making of Ëa. I would think they have some residual memory of their part in it.🤔
@@EnerdhilYes that is the explanation of their ability of foresight. They reside the memory of events they heard back when Ea was being built and thus they can possess precognitive powers. Thus Elven foresight and prophecies are just some lucky-guessing. Strangely, I believe this philosophy also applies to some wisest elves. Galadriel knew for example that Boromir was in vain and about to get himself in a bad situation ( as Gandalf states after being incarnated ) but she never does something to actually change it
Remember when gandalf the white refused to help the hobbits retake the shire. Gandalf had a mission. His mission was over. The rest was up to the hobbits for good or ill. Anything else would exceed his mission and authority. Thats why he went to bombadil afterwards..to remove himself from the story. The Ainur are not here to rule men and elves, are not here to solve our problems. They rule Arda itself, not the children. They must tread lightly or take the risk of becoming more like Sauron or Melkor. This is what happened to Saruman.
@@temmy9 Well said
What would Melian have done differently had she been a human Queen? I don't think she would smack Thingol anyway. I also doubt she would have told Beleg what to do with the knowledge of Anglachel if she were human. Those responses were perfectly female.
I've gone back and forth in my opinion of the Valor...honestly, I wouldn't be able to do any better on my first go. It's easy to judge in hindsight.
If Melkor really wanted Arda unmade into fiery chaos, he could have just put me in charge with instructions to do my best to keep things running smoothly. 😂
@@GirlNextGondor I would take the paycheck and then hire someone else to do the work. Middle Earth would be fried within a week
Unfit beyond all belief. Melkor corrupts all of Arda, twists it's living beings (including the Children of Iluvatar) and Manwe has to be *begged* by Earendil to do anything about it. Ar-Pharazon lands an army on the shores of Valinor, and Manwe has Eru on speed dial calling him in to hit the world so hard that it goes from flat to round. But even the early failings raise questions. With Varda at his side, Manwe can allegedly see *anything* on Arda, just as Varda can hear it. Yet, somehow, Manwe utterly failed to notice the unlight of Ungoliant as she and Melkor marched north across Aman into Valinor and killed the Two Trees. Feanor was justifiably angry over his father Finwe's murder by Melkor. Manwe certainly did nothing to prevent it. Indeed, a darker interpretation of Manwe is that he manipulates the Children of Iluvatar to fight his wars for him, so that he can maintain the pretense of restraint and neutrality. Feanor made a great tool for Manwe, because his easily angered personality meant that he would go fight Melkor when Manwe wouldn't. The Noldor were also tools, and allowing the First Kinslaying gave Manwe an excuse to exile them to Middle-earth so that they would fight Melkor in a protracted series of wars. The Istari were explicitly intended to manipulate Men into opposing Sauron, which is why they were denied their ability to change shape or full powers as Maiar. At every turn, Manwe uses others as pawns so that he doesn't have to get his own hands dirty. More like a mortal king than he would like to admit (or have anybody tell him).
Calling the wizards manipulators is a worst-case reading. They were sent to inspire men, only 1 (perhaps 3) succeeded in doing this. Sauruman was corrupted by Sauron lying to him about the self destructive nature of humans and elves. Radagast loved the world too much and lost his sense of duty. Only Gandalf succeeded. He gave up his life to inspire the fellowship and keep them going. He didn't know he would be brought back by Aluvatar. He gave up his immortal life to save the fellowship
@@CyrodiilCome - Not helping the argument. Pretty sure that Manwe and the other Valar could have sent regular orders to the Istari in order to keep them on-duty. Instead, at best it can be said that this was a *very* long-running reality TV show that Manwe and Varda (and probably the rest of the Valar) were watching from their perch atop Taniquetil. Curumo/Saruman in particular was inexcusable. He had basically the same background as Mairon/Sauron, as a servant of Aule, and the same tendencies (impose order). Olorin/Gandalf was the only one who really seemed to focus on the actual mission at hand. The rest were kind of just doing their own things. To this day we don't even know if the Blue Wizards hindered or helped Sauron in the East. He certainly had vast numbers of Easterling troops despite their efforts.
At minimum, the Valar should have sent Eonwe, without a secret identity. Better would have been to send Orome and/or Tulkas to smack Sauron down *hard* and drag him back to Valinor for judgment. Which, you might recall, is what he was supposed to do at the end of the War of Wrath. Eonwe deserved punishment for trusting Sauron to obey without duress. That's like a cop expecting a murderer to just hand themselves into law enforcement.
The moral of the story being that the Ainur are useless idiots.
I think the Legendarium can be characterized as an exercise in speculative christopaganism. Manwe is a very good king who understands his job description, but his mistake with the elves was enormous. He directly messed up Illuvatar's plan by removing so many elves to Valinor. Also, the Numenor thing was a huge mistake as well. The Valar created a race of superhuman freaks and unleashed them on the people of Middle Earth. By the time Manwe has the chance to learn from his mistakes, the consequences are so huge thats its too late to fix them.
Forget that, Eru himself has a lot to answer for!
This video got me thinking of the fact that Manwë was intended to refine and improve upon what Melkor began. Maybe it was a great wisdom of Manwë to not act so much. Melkor spent all of his strength in the years leading up to the end of the first age. Manwë continued on and can refine and improve upon what Melkor created over the many long years of the world that stretch beyond the length of Tolkien's writings.
Every 3 months or so, I think of how Manwe and Melkor were supposed to work together and have to have a good cathartic cry about it. 🥹
It's interesting how Manwe and the rest of the Valar (for the most part, there are some like Ulmo take a more involved role in Arda) are almost like a deistic form of god. They don't seem to interfere a lot with the day to day goings on of Arda.
They even decline to act in some cases where they believe it's still up to Eru to intervene. I like the middle ground they occupy philosophically.
@@GirlNextGondor it’s a very interesting form of “gods” Tolkien came up with!
Manwë gets an A+ from me👏🏼
A for effort 🥺
Are ents children of Eru? Don't they have as good a claim as the dwarves?
edit: Now I wonder what the Ents would have done with the rings.
You would think so. The Silmarillion suggests they were inherent to Yavanna's part in the theme, and says they are 'spirits' who will take the form of animate trees. Almost like a non evil version of werewolves, I guess.
@@GirlNextGondoryes but they had children like the others (before entwives disappeared)
Actually, I never thought about the Ents not being listed among the Children of Eru Iluvatar.
It might explain why Tolkien exterminated the Entwives off the face of Arda.😔
@@Enerdhilthey are still there and at least the younger ones will one day find them. Treebeard talks about them and how they got separated
@@GirlNextGondor
Can wolves actually speak? Ents can. They obviously have souls to me. Werewolves are just corrupted fauna with evil inclinations, aren't they?
Nice video, thank you!
Thanks, Luke! 🥰
I had a strange thought. Do you think, perhaps, Manwe released Morgoth because Eru's plan relied on him being free?
It reminds me of Zeus in the Iliad. He wants to save his son, Sarpedon, fated to die, but though he can by his own power, he will not, because all the gods have decided to abide by what the fates have decreed. He could defy the fates, he is that powerful, but he will not, because as Hera is first to warn him, order has to be maintained among even the Gods. Hierarchy and roles pertain especially among the immortals.
There's a line about Tulkas et al being frustrated with Manwe's choice to release Melkor, since they didn't trust him, but they went along with it because 'those who would defend authority from rebellion must not themselves rebel.' I think a similar statement could be made about Manwe/Zeus in their roles as wielders of *legitimate* authority (obviously not the only way Zeus ever shows up, but I think in the context you're describing that's the side of him we're seeing.) If your role is to uphold order and justice, you must not yourself subvert that order.
I think an interesting thing of Manwe is it is said he had the best understanding of Aluvatar's plan. Not that he fully understands, just understands the most.
If you are brought in to enforce a set of rules, this adds a degree of rigidity to how one can act. Being a spirit brought into the world for this purpose, would make one's mental capacity particularly rigid. Manwe's hands are tied in multiple ways: a narrow range of experience, free will, and the problem of wisdom.
Wow absolute best video. The last part really touched me. It’s not enough. The tragedy of existence 😭
You’re such a cool content creator honestly 🤍
In a reasonable universe, the Valar would have taken responsibility for their fallen brother, and the employees he corrupted. I get why they didn't...but I think they still should have.
agreed.
If the Valor stepped in and fought Morgoth then elves man and dwarf would never become the great races they became. It wasn't their right to directly interfere.
Great video! Here is hoping that through some path that even the eyes of the eagles can't detect, this "Like" will yet prove to be worth the effort of it's making!
If the Eagles can't appreciate it, I do!
The Ainur aren't Jeffersonian clockmaker deities who just set the machine in motion. Witness the fact that the Sun and Moon have to be actively guided every single day. Thus everything in Middle-earth. When a leaf falls, it's not because gravity "just works" but because the Ainur constantly keep it working as it's supposed to. And Manwë has to oversee all of this.
Solipsistic tyranny.
Wow! I am going to try to work that into at least one conversation each day.
How Tulkas would have handled Sauron:
"Hold my beer," he says to Eönwë. "Be back in a few."
He comes back a week later, holding Sauron by the scruff of the neck, and deposits him in front of Manwe's throne. "Tricky thing, kept changing shape on me."
He then drops Saruman right next to Sauron. "Thought I'd bring him back, too. It'll save us some trouble."
Intelligent and thoughtful as always
🥰
Mandos knows all:
He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar.
Interesting video, and I take your point that Manwe has a thankless task that wasn't originally supposed to be his role. I find it hard to not see the Valar as having been rather neglectful where men were concerned though, as their rationale for leaving us to Melkor's mercy seems to be "we promised not to interfere with the Elves, and Men live on the same continent, so...sucks to be them."
The thing I find hardest to swallow is the grudging forgiveness granted to the Noldor, who were strongly advised to return to the Undying Lands and be at peace, but were not actually allowed to go home except for visits and were required to live on Tol Eressea. And Tolkien's discussion of this in The Nature of Middle-Earth is rather weak - basically it hangs on "Eru is ok with it, and he can't be wrong" when there have been a number of times that Eru has allowed the Valar to do what they wanted rather than what he had envisaged.
In the end I guess it come down to things having to be certain ways to make the stories work. If the Valar intervene early in the Silmarillion then it's a short book, after all...
This was excellent. Hats off to you
Thank you! 🎩🫡
Another beautiful analysis. You can't find thought takes like this anywhere else.
Lexi, your videos are always so insightful, and I learn something new every time. I'm always happy when a Girl Next Gondor video shows up in my notifications!
21:22 I like that image of Frodo in Mordor. It's very close to my own imagination, but without the spikey shoulders
Always interesting!
Great topic!
Good video, thank you. Interesting thought candy.
Very good, thanks. But since you mentioned the Vanyar at the end - I can't help but feel their existence was pointless. Basically, all they did was sit at Manwe's feet and... do nothing. They might as well have been furniture or floor tiles. If I'd have been one of them, I would have said "Screw this pure boredom, I'm going back with the Noldor".
Life and living itself is precious enough, no matter what you do. Obviously, individuals who do not or cannot grow further (because they are supposedly already perfect or rather, complete) do not make for entertaining stories usually.
Given the examples of Indis, Amarie, Elenwe, and whoever spawned Glorfindel, I like to think those Vanyar who were susceptible to boredom had already moved on to claim themselves some Noldorin, uh... fellowship... before the Flight 💖
Great stuff, thanks Lexi 🧝♂️
his maiar Eonwe is also seemingly incompetent as well.
It is perfectly logical why the powers of the world do not protect elves from other elves, or men from other men, or wild beast, etc. But it really seems morally bankrupt to just leave one of your kind to ravage the children of Illuvatar. Doubly so when you yourself unleash that monster of a being upon them without them deserving any of it.
The hesitancy to deal more directly with Melkor in the early days, for fear of the destruction and loss it would cause to 'their' project of Arda, is one of the points Tolkien identifies as a moral failure of the Valar.
@@GirlNextGondor Probably inspired by the 1930s appeasement.
Is there a discord or community hangout spot for fans
There's currently one for patrons but it hasn't yet been expanded beyond that. Hopefully soon.
Very amusing and interesting - as always!
Time from seeing Girl Next Gondor post and watching it... Not long!
The idea I had the most trouble with when reading the books was how inept, aloof, and ineffectual Manwe and the Valar in general seem to be. These are supposed to be bar none the greatest agents of Eru in Arda. And yet, it looks like they are generally content to let the world go to hell, so long as they get to watch it all burn from their ivory tower. Some Valar are less despicable than others, sure, but on the whole, I can't help but see them ultimately as losers who fail their chief task: ensuring the life and freedom of Elves and Men. Without that, everything else is pretty pointless; what is the point of a flawless Arda if Elves and Men are violated, enslaved, and led to utmost destruction?
Your videos are amazing and informative, dear. Keep up the good work. 😊
Appreciate it!
Has there ever been a hint where Sauron had hiddeb himself?
I think the most definite statement we get is something like 'far in the east' unfortunately....
An excellent series of points.
Very well done.
Well done! Excellent job as always!
''God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; He judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, And accept the persons of the wicked? Defend the poor and fatherless: Do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: Rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; They walk on in darkness: All the foundations of the earth are out of course.''
Nice work thanks
Manwe and Melkor were very similar in the beginning, however their roles tied them to their fates. Melkor doing evil acts not for anything other then evils sake which enslaved him to it towards the end of his story.
Manwe is not enslaved to good, but he does the best he can for good even though the taint of Melkor is within existence itself.
The difference is struggle vs impulsiveness.
I think he has the belief he’s going the best he can and he trusts Eru to do the rest.
Edit:fixed a typo
I made this as a joke before watching about estel, but I’m so glad I was pretty much right.
Manwe doesn't ''rule''. He observes. The only time he calls upon Iluvatar to intervene in the affairs of Arda is when something happens that might endanger the Valar.
Oh today is a good day
I agree! This one has been on my mind a lot. It's nice to finally launch it.
Despite your reasons,I still think Manwe is an awful King and Vala
A contrast of what he has vs what has he done:
-won the spiritual and genetic lottery
-was given power over all the Valar
-was given lordship over the entire universe
-was given knowledge of the afterlife of Mankind
VS what has he done
-let Morgoth go free despite being advised not to
-after Feanor told him not to trust Morgoth,he set him free anyway,got his father killed,than after the consequences of his actions and warnigs given demands Feanor to give up the Silmarils
-after Morgoth was free waited millennia before stopping him
-after Morgoth was defeated let Sauron go free because reasons
-after Sauron corrupted Numenor,he failed to smite him Elendil,Isildur and Gil Galad did a better job at defeating him than a divine archangel
-devised a plan so impossible and unachivable for the wizards so much so that got one killed,one traitor and 3 others failed
-i imagine that Gandalf too would have done a better job at defeating Sauron if he had the one ring
As you can see his regime was one of failure after failure,most of Arda s problems could have been completely avoided if he wasnt so terrible at being both a Vala and a king
Ulmo would have done a far better job ruling... Like how was Manwe supposed to be the one who understood Eru's plan the most when he couldnt even comprehend evil?
I think Ulmo excels partly *because* he's in the second-in-command role. Although being arguably Manwe's closest colleague and supporter, he's also among those who most often acts against (at least the literal interpretation of) his mandates. They seem to balance each other out!
Aluvatar isn't evil.
Thank 🐑!
What a brilliant topic! 😃 I've never seen anyone tackle whether the Valar are te suck.
I can't help but reflect that the other Valar who spoke up for Melkor after his first imprisonment was none other than Nienna; and if Manwe was the chief proponent of Eru in the second part of the music, Nienna was so in the third. I cannot think this is by accident.
But the other thing I kept thinking was Gandalf's line to Denethor "For I am also a Steward. Did you not know?" For Stewardship seems a very useful concept in which to describe Manwe's role. He holds Ea in trust, but it is not his.
Does he even rule Arda? Hardly noticeable, besides sending his Eagles from eon to eon.
It's not every day you get to hear someone use 'calumniator'. 😀
I considered cutting to an ellipsis but was too excited to get to say it 😊
Good video
Thank you!
I think Eru’s will was for self determination and free will for all humans, elves, dwarves, and even Morgoth and Sauron, etc and that came with a price both positive and negative. (with little a little nudging in the right direction along the way) Because every time the Valar had to step in with force, then much of the world was destroyed, whether it was at the end of the first age or the end of the second. The price of divine intervention was extremely costly. So Eru worked subtly through his creations whether it was Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo or Gollum.
Manwe treated Melkor better than he did the Noldor.
Squad? In middle-earth, we travel in fellowships! lol
The 'squad' thing was meant to be a joke, but now people seem to expect it 😅
It may be more acceptable to think of Manwe as Iluvitar’s scapegoat more than his champion.
Great video
Everything Melkor does has its ultimate source in Eru. And who is Manwe to deny what is in the will of Eru?
Manwe, and Melkor, both played their part in the Great Music. Nothing they did or did not do hampered or helped Eru's design for the world, its story, or its denoument. They exercised their own free will throughout it all, yet all of their choices were already known from before their own creation and the creation of the world. That is difficult for us finite creatures to grasp, but the story of Arda was written by an infinite Being who could take all things into account and use them to achieve His ultimate end. Thus did Eru reveal to Melkor at the conclusion of the Music.
@@michaelogrady232 I feel like that really goes against the concept of free will, or more specifically goes against the idea of free will making a difference or mattering at all. if eru really already knew everything even better beginning or made things go a certain way regardless of the actions of those within arda what's the point of them having free will at all? very depressing imo living beings are not tools of a god or gods
@viper-the-great Think of it like a guy betting on football games. He always picks the winning team. Nothing is rigged. No players are manipulated. How does he do it? He's omniscient. He just knows. And with that knowledge, he can make plans.
@@michaelogrady232 r u saying he knows because he can see all the possible outcomes and as such has knowledge of everything that MIGHT happen or does he literally know what specific will happen every time? cuz one of those clearly goes against the concept of free will
@viper-the-great What is your concept of free will? Neither of those scenarios goes against my concept of free will, which is freedom to choose possible things without interference. How does an omniscient Being who knows all of your specific choices from before creation interfere with you making those choices? And how does an omnipotent Being factoring all those choices into an ultimate plan interfere with the making of those choices? I do admit this was once a tough one for me, as well, until I came face to face with me being a finite being trying to figure out an infinite Being. Then the concepts of free will and predestination stopped being mutually exclusive, and became complimentary to each other. A humbling experience.
@@michaelogrady232 again I have to ask r u referring to an omniscient being being aware of all possible choices one might make it knowing with certainty the specific choice one will make in every circumstance they ever encounter in life? if the latter it would mean that your choice was not a choice at all but essentially a design forced on u by that being, Fate creation, whatever you want to call it. perhaps the very fact that we only ever have a set amount of and specific individual choices for anything in itself speaks to a lack of freedom or true power to really choose based on our own individual thoughts and feelings and chosen desires. I'm not a pawn to be implemented in a way set by another in some grand plan. I believe that our personality is chosen by us as individuals ie a caring and kind soul or harsh bitter angry one just as some examples. I am what I am by my power of choice. not to say other things can't influence but ultimately that is if we let it. how do the concepts of good and evil heaven and hell damnation and redemption oneness and individuality fit into your view of these two ideas of free will and determinism? also a personal question if I may, what is the point of living if not to try to leave your mark on the world as long as it lasts and to be remembered as long as that and people saying you truly made a difference and helped shape the way of things? we only get one life that's about us and to show what we can do and are special and wonderful and without which creation would be worse off. what's worse then bring just another grain of sand among countless others? I've always had a profound hatred of the idea that we as individuals don't matter and can't reshape things and leave a permanent mark on creation, that we are just an instrument of some grand design following a path decided long before our creation. even more so when we the ones have to live it and live with it. sorry if this is very long to read or confrontational. I am ok with hearing other views it's just a topic that I have very deep thoughts and opinions about
I am willing to cut Manwe and the Valar generally some slack because it was the FIRST TIME there was evil, then the FIRST TIME there were incarnates, and likewise greed and vengeance and obsession and murder. I still think a little "gentle chiding," and maybe a bit more, is justified.
... poor bloke is a cosmic SysAdmin...
The big question is, why didn't Eru give his King a bit more wisdom and inclination to listen to his peers? Those seem mighty good qualities for any king.
Good guys won at the end. Manwe clearly made the right choices.
@@CyrodiilCome yes, but no, but yes? I mean, the good guys won at the price of colossal heaps of suffering, pain and Arda being... ostile. Then again, said pain and suffering made every deed worthy.
Manwe is like a professor of music who gets to watch over a symphony. Ensuring everything happens at the right time, at he end he will get to ding his triangle once. Otherwise his wonderful skill is seldom seen. Thanks GNG
We all know the real power (pun intended) behind the throne was Varda. That's why Melkor desired her for himself, he knew who wears the pants. What's Manwë but a glorified ornithologist? Haha, just kidding.
Manwë was such a king of Arda that a lower level Ainur ( Sauron ) not only became a treat in might but almost took over middle earth! I’m sorry but he was a terrible king.
Manwe is the sensitive, less powerful brother who adores Eru. But when his brother rebels he has to lead the rest of the ainur and become king.
I always took it that while evil knows itself and good, and can thus fake it (lie), good is blind to evil. Only after a great many times did Manwe seem to wake up and say, "shit, this guy keeps stabbing everyone in the back. Should I do something?" It was a hole in his "programming," so to speak; or, think of it as moral colorblindless; if you cannot see it, you cannot react to it.
I think manwe knew something was a foot , he understood the middle earth people needed hardship and villains to make them realise stuff and make advancement
I love this wtiting and lore more than anything. But man, Melkor is probably one of the most tragic characters ever created. It's not like it's easy to feel sorry for him, but it's possible to recognise his tragedy in the form of being doomed to an evil path right from the beginning. He just wanted to show his everyone his metalcore but they all wanted classical. :(