Idea: everything played out in the same way except Jerome doesn't die in season 4. In season 5 Jerome and Jeremiah clash over their love/hate of Bruce and both go into the acid. Only one comes out, so we never know who really became J
@@Mohamad-m7md Or they could have done it as DC did near the end of the new 52 and imply (and later reveal that both Jerome and Jeremiah) were both the Joker. Then if Fox and WB decide to do a follow-up series (Think the later X files, Prision Break reboots/seasons) show that some of the crimes where Joker related but one would be more anarchy based and somewhere more cerebral in nature, leading Jim and Harvy not to know who or what was causing the crimes.
aesthetic sunshine WB sure pulled the plug on this show, big time...but hell,they’re no better...the dceu had the rockiest of starts(except man of steel)both Batman versus Superman and justice league fell far in the deep-end,almost pouring the entire dc company down the drain...but then, comes Wonder Woman and aqua man, along with Shazam...and things got interesting real quick
It has been pretty stupid. They give us Riddler, Cat Woman, Penguin, Mr. Freeze...but NO. You CAN'T have the Joker. Gimmie a break. SMALLVILLE had Lex Luthor alongside Clark since the first episode. There was no reason to deny Gotham the use of the Joker. Having them use green hair or even just the name in the finale...there's no way that would have harmed the movies any. (Unless Warner feared the show would do the Joker so well nobody would accept any later movie versions of the Joker. In a way that sure happened with Luthor.)
1700 MARS yeah ur right Leto is so bad he should not be in the same sentence then Gotham joker btw I know that u disagree with us so don’t r/whoosh me I’m playing a part
@TERRENCE CASATONGUAY Pretty much everyone was a better Joker than Leto. Heck, even Brent Spiner who voiced The Joker in that one Episode of the Young Justice was a better Joker than Leto.
When I first heard of the twin brother thing I thought that Jeremiah would embrace his madness by killing Jerome himself, in a nice twist. It was done ok but there was no surprise
They could put the red hood in first Matt Reeves movie like the origin of joker and then in post credits scene would see joker and they make a sequel with the joker as the main villain. That would have look good without take the shine of the penguin or riddler.
I just love jeremiah. Im sorry but i do. I liked his relationship with bruce. You don’t notice that bruce was there for him with the whole jerome situation which is why he cared so much. I liked his character and the fight between them was epic and satisfying and as annoying it may seem, i like the story just the way it is. My only problem with it all to me is just the finale of gotham season 5
Watching back the ace chemicals episode with my friend, I said that when Jeremiah was getting beaten up by Bruce, there should be a BRAZZERS logo at the bottom
I would have liked to see them explore the 3 Jokers concept from the comics to run with things in season 4. Kind of like how the they acknowledged that Harley had predecessors in the comics and Jay commented that there were always more fish in the sea after killing Ecco. Honestly, I'd love a continuation arc where you saw Jay subtly grooming Harleen to make her the new Ecco. Encouraging her to use the word "Puddin", to lean in to her accent, etc. A vague suggestion that in Jerimiah's broken mind that he's trying to recreate what he lost with Harley.
I love them both Valeskas equally for different reasons. They were both brilliant yet very different sides of The Joker. Jerome was more like the Modern Age Joker, Joker from the Arkham games, and the DC Animated Universe Joker with hints of Ledger and Nicholson while Jeremiah was more like Frank Miller's Joker, Killing Joke Joker, Ledger, and Golden Age Joker.
Imagine if after Bruce refused to kill Jerome in season 3 Jerome becomes obsessed with proving to Bruce that he is evil just like him thus beginning the neither kill each other clash of ideologies relationship we know in the comics.
This would've been the best way to go. Jerome becoming obsessed with corrupting Bruce, while Bruce kinda becomes obsessed trying to reform Jerome into a better person.
I agree with every word you said, Boba! Those are my thoughts exactly. They had him come back from death once, so they should have kept with that. No matter how much I love Jeremiah (which is just as much as Jerome), they should have kept the OG, 'J'. Very well put together video, very detailed explanation, and as always a job very well done! Keep up the good work, Boba! And enjoy your holiday, you deserve one!
The story of MR.J (Joker) in Gotham is one of the best for me, from the beginning to the end. Cameron Monaghan played a lot of joker variations and partly in his own way and I really liked that. He should get the joker in the next Batman movie against Robert Pattinson that would be great
@FoxRNG But he was basically a live-action version of the one from The Killing Joke combined with Frank Miller's Joker and Joker when he made his debut during the Golden Age. Like in The Killing Joke, one bad day turned him into who he is & his origin was "multiple choice" in addition to the fact that he tried to prove that anyone can be corrupted enough to become like him, which is what he was trying to prove by trying to drive Commissioner Gordon mad in The Killing Joke whereas in The Dark Knight, he did it to Harvey Dent instead and did it to Batman and the rest of Gotham. As for his personality, it's less like how Joker's often depicted and more like how Joker was originally depicted when he was first created, a cold and calculating criminal mastermind and less of the perpetually grinning and laughing and visibly manic Joker that many know him to be. Frank Miller's Joker had a similar personality too and his obsession with Batman and chaos were similar too.
Jerome was perfect from the beginning as the pre-Joker. The producers should have just committed to the character (even if they couldn't call him the Joker) instead of coyly teasing this "inspiration for the Joker" nonsense. Let's kill him off! Then bring him back! Then kill him off again! Oh, and he has a twin brother who will eventually be the real Joker!
Agreed. They should've just keep the character and make him fall into the acid wat. But we never see Jerome ever again, but we still get a tease that he survived. They could've just keep him around and have him as the Joker, without saying out-right that he is the Joker.
Disagree Boba. I love Jerome but I prefer Jeremiah for being a more unique take on the Joker & his relationship with Bruce. I think they did the Joker story amazingly across the show, and for a long time I didn’t want Gotham to give a definitive Joker origin. But they won me over in S4. I loved the intrigue and twists and ideology/legacy aspect. Definitely 100% happy personally with how they did it.
That’s my problem, Gotham is a origin story to “batman” so Jeremiah being a unique villain became a great villain yes but as a joker he was boring, I love joker because his charisma was so unpredictable, I was on my toes when Jerome held a whole party including bruce and Alfred hostage but I “just” knew Jeremiah was going to lose because who in fiction hasn’t tried to blow up the city and failed If your plan is gonna be cliché and boring might as well have fun doing it instead of looking like a smart ass with no personality then look stupid when you lose
If I were to write this, I would have kept Jerome alive. Everything plays out the same leading up to Jerome’s death, except when he falls he is caught by a police tarp (can’t think of the name). He is then locked away in GCPD. Jeremiah still receives the gift and gets disfigured, yet he keeps hiding it via makeup. Meanwhile, Jeremiah and Bruce get closer and closer. Jeremiah was locked away for 15+ years with only Ecco to keep him company. Now Bruce is reaching out and Jeremiah feels like he has a friend for the first time. Meanwhile, there are rumors of Jerome causing mass hysteria even when he is locked away in solitary confinement. Here, Bruce and Jeremiah reach their sole disagreement. Bruce wants to see Jerome brought to justice, while Jeremiah wants to kill him. Jeremiah breaks into Jerome’s cell and is prepared to do the deed before he is whisked away by Ra’s al Ghul. That story continues to play out as Ra’s makes Jeremiah even more obsessed with Bruce. Jerome breaks out simultaneously and rallies his followers to burn down Gotham once and for all. Jerome starts targeting buildings like Jeremiah did in the real show while Ra’s and Jeremiah blow all the bridges, cutting off Gotham from the mainland. Jeremiah then kills Ra’s at his request, thus gaining control over the League of Shadows only until Bruce takes up the mantle by breaking his one rule. Season 5 starts with Jeremiah attempting to pull Bruce over to the League of Shadows while Jerome continues to wreak havoc in Gotham. It all culminates the same way with Bruce fighting Jeremiah and Jerome in ACE Chemicals only for BOTH Jerome and Jeremiah to fall into the same vat of acid which is then flushed out into Gotham’s river system. That is the last anyone sees of Jerome or Jeremiah. Ecco is then committed to Arkham where she remains comatose in shock over Jeremiah’s death. However, years later in the Series Finale, a mysterious burned figure who calls himself J appears, and no one can tell which Valeska brother it is.
Jeremiah valeska is the best joker ever made in history Jerome valeska was no joker but he carried the Gotham tV show at least for me a great insanely unstable joker fan opinion
I think they should've went with ONE character from season 1, like a fused character of Jerome and Jeremiah. And give him that shyness of Jeremiah, but at times that psychology of Jerome. Sort of like a personality disorder, and then later on somehow he goes fully insane and cues that Jeremiah laughing, clenching his own head scene, and give him Jerome's crazy crazy personality with aspects of Jeremiah's cold and calculative personality. Finally in season four cue the Bruce and Jeremiah/Jerome character battle ending up with the Jeremiah/Jerome character falling in the chemicles. Now the timeskip, he awakens when Bruce returns to Gotham, and he has a half Jerome and half Jeremiah personality.
since bat man revealed there is multiple people playing the joker ((least 3)) i wish gotham could have gone longer and it turns out there is triplets each with there own personalities and quirks you had jerome being the anarchist / spot light mass murdering joker ...the one that doesnt have a plan and just does.......your got jerimiah who is obbessed with the relationship who is super sane aspect of the joker and then have a 3rd J with other quirks....basicly dont permently kill any of the 3 and made the audiance feel like there is only 1 that periodicly had mood / personality shifts then later towards the end not that badman/gorden/brucewayne find out but the audiance finds out that there is 3 the whole time ....that would of paid super ommish to the commics i know the triple joker wasnt revealed till after gotham started but i think it might of been cool if they went that way ....maybe the 3 would be friendemies in a since that they are each competeing to be the best joker BUT sometimes will plan and conspirer together just some ideas ive always loved how there was least 2 people being the joker or spirit of the joker especially after finding out cannonly there is more then 1 anyways
Here's my thought. If you're going to kill off Jerome for Jeremiah to assume his position, there's no point in Jerome existing except buying time story line wise; but seeing the end goal of Jeremiah becoming Joker taints / diminishes Jerome's arc, ultimately seeing he's worthless unless you're to do a multi-joker universe! I mean, people hated Jeremiah season 4 because he didn't have classic Joker characteristics that Jerome possessed, but again if he had said traits, than there's no point in Jerome.. So to quote a Gotham episode.. "Damned if you do..".
My idea for Joker would of been that Jack Napier would of been at the circus like Jerome except he would’ve had a semi-close relationship with Bruce maybe even being there when Thomas and Martha Wayne are killed and from that it slowly starts to twist him to the point that as he visits Bruce in the alley, Selina could see him smiling. I would’ve loved that foreshadowing but yeah Jack could’ve easily descended into the Red Hood Gang slowly subsiding away from Bruce maybe Bruce pushes him away. But Jack would in fact be creepy and would probably be Joker-esque when not only the cops try to stop him but Bruce tries to remind him of the friendship they once had but it leads to Jack falling and we would of seen him as Joker two seasons later or teased in the next season prior to him falling would make Bruce guilty.
I agree about the building of the relationship between Bruce and Jeremiah. It was only for 1.5 episode? I wish it would have been for more. But I really like Jeremiah, how he sees Bruce as a friend and his conception about friendship. I mean he never had a friend so, to be along with someone who congrats you for your job, it must have been a huge hug for Jeremiah. Just few episodes more about them and Jeremiah's obsession would have been so great to watch
Ironically the TV joker is much better than some of the film ones 🥴 Despite all the restrictions - Gotham created a phenomenal joker storyline even with all of the flaws. I really loved the show and nearly all of the characters in it.
@@DanW21 with more seasons the Jerome clone would study Jeremiah's tactics as jeremiah tortures him then kills jeremiah becoming the shows third proto-joker then they would kill him too at some point and then some random guy falls into the chemicals and becomes the fourth proto-joker who inspires the real joker in the finale, just my thought
Or it was only because of fucking *copyright issues*! They didn't even gave Gotham a chance to do that. They said they're reserving these for Jared and Phoenix, i know yeah the two did good job at it. But Cameron can make Joker more popular that even a filipino like me love Cameron's Joker.
Honestly he is in my top 3 jokers so because he matches the feel of Gotham. What I really enjoy about the show Gotham is the fact that give the city the best representation yet I have felt that with all of the other versions Gotham never felt like the most crime ridden city in the world. Sure there where a lot of bad people in the city but it visually did not show how bad it was the show Gotham captures it perfectly with all of the crime bosses and and simple killers and robbers to the criminally insane and how the police department had to be run.
I never understood why they killed him in the first place. Seriously all they had to do was never call him Joker, the Joker as an idea angle could have been used by the end if they never wanted to fully embrace him as Joker
Here is a better storyline: Bruce fights Jerome Valeska in ACE Chemicals, and finally snaps killing Jerome leaving Bruce with a heavy weight on his shoulders since he killed someone and broke his code which makes him vow to it even more. Jeremiah would still be the main villain of Season Five and the end of Season Four, and Jerome would still gas him starting to make him go insane. But Jeremiah would finally decide he wanted to truly torment Bruce when he finally realized despite the fact that Jerome was evil he was still his brother and went full on insane. Jeremiah would take many examples from Jerome making it even more that Jerome started this Joker idea that many others followed including Jeremiah as he tormented Bruce going full on Joker. Jeremiah would still be J at the end of Season Five, and talk about how something bigger was coming, but Jeremiah would die at the end of Season 5 making it clear that the Valeskas started the idea of Joker and someone would pick up the mantle. On a final note finding Jeremiah should have been a major plot line in Season Four instead of a 3 Episode or so plot, Jeremiah could have also worked at Gothcorp in Season Four and Season Five, but in Season Five we would see him snap was Jerome died quitting Gothcorp to be a Villain to Bruce. P.S: This Plot would have worked a even better if Gotham got at the very least a full 22 Episode long Season Five.
I think that maybe having Jeremiah be introduced earlier on in the series or them having more seasons could have gone the Smallville Clark & Lex route with Bruce and Jeremiah being best friends like brothers but because of Jerome, Jeremiah would slowly start to turn into The Joker and by the end Jeremiah becomes Joker at the same time as Bruce becomes Batman and this could’ve truly played on the whole “one bad day” idea from the Killing Joke and it would make sense why Batman would want to help Joker rather than kill him as they were friends/brothers once. Jerome’s legacy of anarchy and madness would be solidified by creating The Joker through his brother while managing to not have him be replaced by Jeremiah. Would’ve made a helluva twist on the Batman mythos.
How about jerome doesn't die, and jeremiah got a copy of the plans of jerome. And then jerome and jeremiah would have some sort of contest of those plans, with jerome doing it in an insane way, and jeremiah doing it in a "sane" way
The only thing I like about Jeremiah was his look and the fight between him and Bruce at Ace chemicals in season 4. I felt like that fight was straight out of the comics
I have to agree with you Boba, honestly, as much as I love Jeremiah, Jerome should've been our Joker in the end. Also, just a thought, I wish that after Jerome and Bruce's fight in season 3, that when we saw him again in season 4, his mood would've changed for Bruce for not killing him in season 3, like a reflection to Batman not killing Joker after their fight in Arkham Origins the first time. That way, it would make him understand Bruce a lot more in the future (if he hadn't been killed off) and he would've been the one to fight Bruce in Ace Chemicals.
My idea for the joker (Gotham) . Like the start, Jeremiah works as a detective with Gordon. He works with Bruce and he’s get super close to him. Like they become best friends. Then author fleck (pre-joker) causes chaos and little by little, finds mind tricks and used it on Jeremiah. Then author fleck makes the same smoke they used for laughing gas. Jeremiah becomes the joker but he doesn’t realize but he does become more protective over Bruce and he starts to get paranoid. Bruce has issues with someone and Jeremiah took his first kill. BOOM joker origins
I don't mind the having Jerome and Jeremiah both being Joker. I liked both iterations, but I would have liked it more if the relationship between the twins was explored more before killing one of them off and that Jeremiah and Bruce's would had more time to build up their friendship imo. Idk maybe if Jeremiah was shown in an earlier season or if Gotham had two more seasons there would been more time to flesh out his Joker.
I think that they should’ve had several different jokers just kind of appear. Like every season a different person just becomes completely unhinged and forms a cult, and Cameron monohan could be two of them, and in that way they could set up from the beginning that the joker is an idea and the audience didn’t get attached to one person.
Wait now...... Jeremiah had been alone with just echo for the majority of his life, so the fact that Bruce embraces him and a friendship with him made Jeremiah feel an instant connection with him! He was Jeremiah’s best friend, it was his only friend!!
I do think that Jerome should have been the Joker, I adored Jeremiah but on reflection Jerome was way better. Also I personally wasn't a fan of Season 5 Jeremiah, I much preferred him in Season 4, he was way more intelligent
I do ultimately think Jerome would have been better to stick with yes (especially knowing how more leeway the directors would get with the Joker), but I do have to give credit to how they did manage to still pull off the twin story. A lot of shows/movies that try to do the twin twist make it *too* predictable and a little boring. They used each twin to then create one joker so for me it was nice to see each side of the joker in more depth.
Before Jerome got popular wasn't the original plan for Gotham's Joker for there to be a bunch of people who could possibly become him and it'd be up to the audience's imagination which one did after the series ended?
I respect your opinion, I just want to know if Jeremiah was in Jerome's spot and Jerome was in Jeremiah's spot with their looks and personalities kept the same, would you have changed your opinion? You did bring up the history thing and how it would feel more satisfying if the person from the beginning was in the end, so I think I know the answer to this question, just wanna make sure. Sorry for the run on sentences 😂
Hey boba big fan! I have to say while I agree with you from a story and character standpoint it would have made more sense to have Jerome be the Joker absolutely. However the truth is I just personally like the character of Jeremiah valeska more so from a personal standpoint I am happy with the way things turned out....and honestly it seems I liked the whole 5th season alot more then most people did...but agian that's more of a personal standpoint.
#BobaTalks as much as love Jerome, I still feel the Jeremiah joker was way better. If he started in season one and not Jerome. If you really read most comics of the joker, It was extreamly vastly intelligent artist and Anarchist Who laughed alot But at the same time was very serious. In one comic joker says " Look I'm the joker I don't randomly kill people I only kill people if it's funny what could be possibly be funny about killing you". Jeremiah clearly fits that Jeremiah only thought it would be funny Have a twisted relationship with Bruce Wayne Just like Heath Ledger joker wanted a twisted relationship with the Batman. Jerome Did not They portrayed him as a murderer psychopathic killer who just wanted to kill people just because. Though the comic version of joker Always had a reason the kill A Motive, And objective To get a point across. Jerome had none, "He just wanted to destroy things". If Jeremiah was in season one Expended his character With the adaptation of season 5 Before the last episode which was horrible. It would be the best Joker in Gotham. Given you can't use the name joker, So they made an ideology about him which I thought was OK what I really did like about Jerome more than anything was that they killed the character and brought him back from the dead. I think when they killed the character and brawn back from the dead joker was born because he believed That life itself was a joke anyone and everyone to see the way that you saw the world his eyes like When he was dead. They did that to Jeremiah and kept him least bit sane He could have been the best. Though that's my opinionTo be honest I just think Jeremiah to pull it off if he was in the beginning, But no one asked me so.
I don’t think this would’ve worked because the chemicals is supposed make Joker into the Joker it’s supposed to make him all maniacal and a narcissist Jerome was already insane like that so Jeremiah was better we see him go from a calm and cunning villain to the narcissistic Joker so if it was Jerome it’d spoil the fun of seeing him go from I guess you can say normal since Jeremiah was so calm about things to a complete psychopath so I disagree with this but I did prefer Jerome I know I’m more than late on this but I still decided to put this
Jeremiah actually was also always fucked up. Actually according the jerome even more so fucked up. I think it's explain the chemicals did jack shit to him other then feeling pain and what not. Besides this is just one popular story you csn still make a joker story where he was always insane.
@@ilovezoom3719 I'm talking about when there was kids. I believe Jerome talks about how Jeremiah would do fucked up things but no one believed Jerome during that time. If anything the chemicals made Jeremiah show his insanity
For my version of what I would've done, the entire show would've had to change. I would've kept season 1 and made that tone consistent. I would keep the Jerome scene and then season 4 would be the last season in the Gotham world with the last season being a mixture of time jumps for one overarching story. And Jerome would not appear at all throughout the show untill season 5. I would have an episode begin with a man leaving Arkham asylum. You see his feet and him getting a new name. Wehn he leaves. You see his face. Later on we cut to him 4-5 years after where he has a family he can't support. And then the killing joke origin would happen but it wouldn't have any ties to the killing joke other than that
I agree with this in alot of ways. As much as I love how it ended up, the biggest problem for me was the constant retconning of their previous decision on what to do with the Joker. They had a guy who could maybe be the Joker, then they brought him back and killed him off saying he just "inspired the Joker", then they brought him back to life and then went back on that by killing him again. Then he had a twin brother who was actually said to be the Joker by the cast, but then they retcon that and said he's also not the Joker, but then he fell into a chemical vat meaning he had to be the Joker, but then they retcon that and said that this whole thing was just the 3 Joker storyline with each character representing a different version of the Joker. I'm perfectly fine with them doing the 3 Joker storyline and it ended being really great in the end, but I wish they had one clear vision from the start and didn't have to constantly change their minds on what to do, cause it left things quite messy
Late reply I know but had to comment. Warner bros didn't allow the show to use the joker. They gave us that phenomenal first episode and that was all we were supposed to get when they brought him back warner bros started making a fuss the studio answered hes just similar to him, not really the joker but the more similar he got and the more popular wb kicked off. The show killed him off and said see he isn't the joker. Then they brought him back and killed him off for his twin who also was similar but different. Unfortunately that inconsistency was all wb allowed them to do and I think they made an amazing thing out of a bad situation. All itineraries of Cameron monaghans joker make him the best for me. But I have a preference for Jeremiah. The cold calculating madness and the obsession with Bruce Wayne was just perfect. Not that I didn't love Jerome though
I think Jeremiah was necessary. Jerome would've gotten old. I don't see Jerome wearing makeup and purple suits. But they could've made the blimp of laughing gas go into the river and jerome fall into the river. But I'm real happy with what they went with but Jeremiah should NOT have been a twin brother maybe just some random guy. Idk it's fine. It makes sense. It's good but he DEFINITELY should've been retconned to be the true identity of a character we've seen since the beginning. Maybe even from Season 1.
I still think they did well considering they were restricted with what they were allowed to do , and personally I prefer Jeremiah because the costumes are way better and accurate. They could have kept some of jerome’s personality in Jeremiah also Jeremiah has a better name x .
@Minimal Interest Listen to the final scene in S2. Jerome is still dead at this point, and you can hear his laugh as well as the back of a ginger man's head.
Who know how I would handle a somewhat joker story S1/adding a crime family know as the red hood gang and we follow two new members Lonnie & jay Machin where they deal with the current death of there parents S2/Lonnie ultimately is killed in front of jay and jay what's revenge on the killer S3/jay starts to show interest in becoming the next leader but is kicked out of the reed hood gang S4/jay fells betrayed but what's to spread chaos S5/jay ultimately became Anarchy See what I did a bait an switch where both anarchy and joker are similar and a simple storyline
Gotham dropped the ball due to the lack of time spent on Jeremiah. The finale was way too short! The finale should have been 2 hours to make the battle inside ACE Chemicals more impressive.
I think you misunderstand Jeremiah's role. For starters jeremiah and Bruce were friends for a couple years. And were considered best friends which already adds a unique dynamic. On the other hand Jerome had no love or care for bruce and only wanted to hurt him. Another thing is it's very much Jerome's fault why jeremiah ends up the way he does so in a way jeremiah Is a part of jerome which makes sense in many ways. I would have loved to have one more season with jeremiah and just one more season with Gotham in general. But even so having two different people albeit twins play versions of the joker fits into the new comic canon as well that their have been three different primary jokers in the main universe. Which is meh but whatever
This show still could have been amazing without Jeremiah and Jerome. I think The Riddler and The Penguin carried this show so much on their back they are in the hospital crippled.
I think one cool thing they could have subtly done, still could technically be true although they never alluded to it, would be the three Jokers. I remember in one comic Batman discovered there are three Jokers and if instead of killing of Jerome, they could have kept him alive but he may have gone into hiding or something, idk. This way, due to the Valeska clone hinted at in season 2 finale, there could have theoretically been three Jokers and if they handled other stuff differently it could have been even better.
I think they kinda did that with post acid Jeremiah, since he is supposed to be different from Jeremiah before and a completely different person, I think they did put a Easter egg for that with them. Since it’s Jerome, Jeremiah, and J or Joker.
I think if Jerome fell into acid, most people would think he was a Heath ledger origin, Soo having him survive might cause argument between DC movies and Gotham series
I think WB should have obtained the rights to use the Joker by name on "Gotham," first. Then, they should have made Jeremiah and Jerome a composite character, a psychotic super-genius domestic terrorist, gangster, cult-leader, serial killer and active shooter, complete with UA-cam decapitations of hostages and manifestos. They should have used the beginning "Perma-Clown" look after the Ace Chemicals toxic bath, like the comic book and 1989 Batman movie. The face-removal and stapling could be done in later episodes or seasons, like the New 52 comics. For a realistic origin, they could omit the acid bath and face-stapling and just put Jeremiah/Jerome in clown makeup, like the" Dark Knight" Joker, the best film version of all time. If they liked Jared Leto's Joker, they should have given Gotham's Joker full-body tattoos, Echo Harley Quinn's name and career and a gun collection, appropriate for a domestic terrorist, mob boss and mass shooter. To demonstrate Jerome Valeska's psychosis, WB should have shown hallucination scenes, like in "Black Swan," "Naked Lunch" and "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas." They should also have included all the humor-themed gadgets of the original comic book and "Batman," such as Joker Venom, high-voltage joy buzzer, Jokermobile, etc. I liked Cameron Monaghan's performance as Jerome and Jeremiah Valeska. The Joker cult was original and awesome! It should have been religious, recruited college students, had a compound, gun collections and harems, like real cults. Good legal team and a little more research would go a long way!
I wish they would’ve started with the Jerimiah version and kept that character throughout it was just a little more chaotic joker type of character to me especially with how obsessed he was with Bruce throughout the seasons.
I think they did alright. If it was ME doing things, after they all leave the scene, and Jeremiah is in his maze/house, he opens the package and it's just knockout gas, play a SLIGHTLY different audio message from Jerome..... cut to Jerome's body being discovered missing from the M.E's at GCPD. CUT to a room filled with medical equipment, Jeremiah tied down to a hospital bed with an oxygen mask on his face, Prof. Strange being held at gunpoint by Jeremiahs men, (dialog dialog, dialog), transfer what's left of Jerome's mind from his barely alive brain INTO Jeremiah while Joker toxin gets pumped into his lungs through the mask. BAMM ! , STILL a better twist than the water allergic aliens in "Signs". :-D
A thought a friend and me had on how the Joker could have been done better is basically "combine" both Valeska brothers into one, with the help of Hugo Strange. Now where me and my friend differed is that he felt that there should have been another Red Hood (lets call him Jack Napier for now) that gives the GCPD a hard time and Bruce tries to help, but things go south and Jack Napier Red Hood falls in the chemical vat and presumably dead, only to be fished out by Hugo Strange (for a reason to be explained) and have his face replaced with the scared up Jerome face and look as paper white as Jeremiah. Also getting his brain removed to be replaced with both Valesca's brains (or at least a dominant half), the chaotic half of Jerome and the calculative half of Jeremiah. He believed it would make for a good confliction of personalities and make him feel a bit close to both Bruce and Batman. My thought was similar but cut out the middle man (Jack Napier) and just have both Valesca's in Jeremiah after the chemical vat scene. Hugo Strange fishes him out, does the brain business with Jeremiah and Jerome, and then you get a joker with pep in his step. But that's how we felt, either way we're okay with how the show ended really and it had a resolute conclusion that we could walk away from and reflect on how each character got to where they are now.
As cool as it would have been to see Jerome become the Joker I am fine with the route the show did and making Jeremiah Joker! Both characters are great and extremely interesting and Jerome’s legacy made Jeremiah the Joker and he lives on through Jeremiah and in his head! The show runners said that neither Valeska brother would be the joker which I guess is technically true as Jeremiah was reborn when he fell into the vat of acid at Ace Chemicals as the Joker but he still has Jeremiah’s memories so pretty much season 4/5 Jeremiah is an origin story for the Joker just like Batman’s and when Bruce fully becomes Batman in the ten year time jump Jeremiah fully becomes the Joker and will be called that from then on! I like how they’re stories mirror each other!
My thing is that Jerome was written to want Bruce dead at all costs. Jerome's obsession was different than Jeremiah's. He didn't want to become Bruce's best friend or brother. Also when you stated that Jerome didn't care about Bruce in Season 4 that's untrue cause in Jerome's final episode when he takes that group of people hostage he demands Jeremiah, Gordon AND Bruce to be brought to him so he could kill them all. Than in the episode where Jeremiah reveals his evil side, he shows Bruce Jerome's journal where he wrote about his desire to kill Jeremiah, Gordon and Bruce. So he was still obsessed. I see your point though that Jerome WOULD have made more sense since he WAS Gotham's original Joker. But if I recall correctly the showrunner stated that when they decided to keep Jerome around (he was only supposed to appear in season 1 as an Easter egg and possible foreshadowing) that they never intended for him to become the Joker. He was meant just to begin that story and the ideology which to me was a creative way around not being able to bring the definitive character in. Although like you said in the end it's pretty obvious that Jeremiah is the Joker.
Issue with Jerome; he’s too...Joker right from the get go. There wouldn’t be a big journey to him becoming Joker when he practically is joker without make up.
Nice video. My debate. Now to give you the another outlook of the Veleska Twins. You never mentioned it and no one actually has ever mentioned it.... But- you talked about how Jeremiah didn’t have a long and personal connection with Bruce like Jerome had since Season 1. Well. I beg a differ. Why. - Let’s go back (or fast forward) to when Jerome broke out from Arkham in S4 w/ Crane and Oswald. Who was Jerome searching Gotham for? - His Uncle and he tried the Three Soups... he needed information, a address. From there he goes to the office to ask for who? - Asking for Zander Wild.... remember the fireworks Jerome brought on that day/episode Let’s fast forward some more... too... “the Deadman trigger”. The 1st one lol. (Season 4, E18) After Jim brings Bruce and Jeremiah to Jerome as asked. JEROME... sits down and tells his story about him and his brother. Go back. Watch and listen to the story. Jerome sits down in the chair and talks about the history. Point is. They had different paths of life. - The parents he was referring to was.... Thomas and Martha Wayne. The common bond... was Bruce. Jerome being upset that the Wayne’s adopted Jeremiah “secretively” from Gotham Fast forward to after Jerome’s death... Jeremiah has the same feelings about Bruce. From this standpoint... he’s always known about the adoption and his “brother” Bruce. Jeremiah always wanted a brother unlike Jerome and he had one in Bruce.... who didn’t even know he existed. To also feed on... Jerome & Jeremiah always knew one another pretty tough over the years minus not being around each other. They knew there capabilities. Jerome knew Jeremiah was as crazy and wild as him. And Jeremiah knew it as well, but was able to have a more control over it....... until that night he opened up the box... I don’t want to continue rambling... maybe I should do a video lmao Cheers, Batman Guru Lol
BA Force Just to let you know, it was never said that it was the Waynes that adopted Jeremiah. Jerome just said some ‘rich folks’, they could’ve been anyone.
I was just ranting about this yesterday! The switch and plot was unnecessary. You go from an insane genius to another? That shit had me hot! Lol I just think it was pointless but Gotham is dope!!!!
I like how the 2 "jokers" are based from past versions of Jokers..the first one really gave me a jack Nicholson and Heath ledger joker feel, when he had is face stiched,while the second one reminds me of the animated movie's "the dark night returns" Joker
another cool thing they could have done if they just inserted Jerome into the scenes with Jeremiah and where Jerome would have bombed the bridges then a fun thing to do is still have Jeremiah as a character, but Jerome could have used him to make the bombs and other tech
They split the Joker's personality between Jerome and Jeremiah precisely because a full-on Joker would create copyright issues with Warner Brothers as they didn't want the Joker to be featured in Gotham.
Idea: everything played out in the same way except Jerome doesn't die in season 4. In season 5 Jerome and Jeremiah clash over their love/hate of Bruce and both go into the acid. Only one comes out, so we never know who really became J
I thought I was the only one with this idea! I'm glad I'm not alone
@@Mohamad-m7md Or they could have done it as DC did near the end of the new 52 and imply (and later reveal that both Jerome and Jeremiah) were both the Joker. Then if Fox and WB decide to do a follow-up series (Think the later X files, Prision Break reboots/seasons) show that some of the crimes where Joker related but one would be more anarchy based and somewhere more cerebral in nature, leading Jim and Harvy not to know who or what was causing the crimes.
Good idea
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A LEGEND
Wow
They did great. It was WBs fault because they wouldn't allow them to use certain things.
aesthetic sunshine WB sure pulled the plug on this show, big time...but hell,they’re no better...the dceu had the rockiest of starts(except man of steel)both Batman versus Superman and justice league fell far in the deep-end,almost pouring the entire dc company down the drain...but then, comes Wonder Woman and aqua man, along with Shazam...and things got interesting real quick
How could a Batman movie use ALL the other characters BUT the joker? Makes no sense at all?!
@@maineindividual5202 Because WB didn't sell the rights for the joker :(
Gotham Should have been given full rights to the Joker after Season 3.
It has been pretty stupid. They give us Riddler, Cat Woman, Penguin, Mr. Freeze...but NO. You CAN'T have the Joker.
Gimmie a break. SMALLVILLE had Lex Luthor alongside Clark since the first episode. There was no reason to deny Gotham the use of the Joker. Having them use green hair or even just the name in the finale...there's no way that would have harmed the movies any. (Unless Warner feared the show would do the Joker so well nobody would accept any later movie versions of the Joker. In a way that sure happened with Luthor.)
@@nakyer Kevin Spacey's Lex Luthor was well liked
@@nakyer What about Supergirl’s Lex Luthor?
He's still a better Joker than Leto ever was.
1700 MARS yeah ur right Leto is so bad he should not be in the same sentence then Gotham joker btw I know that u disagree with us so don’t r/whoosh me I’m playing a part
Damn Right
Leto did the best he could with what they gave him to work with.
nakyer no
@TERRENCE CASATONGUAY Pretty much everyone was a better Joker than Leto.
Heck, even Brent Spiner who voiced The Joker in that one Episode of the Young Justice was a better Joker than Leto.
When I first heard of the twin brother thing I thought that Jeremiah would embrace his madness by killing Jerome himself, in a nice twist. It was done ok but there was no surprise
He tried too, he just failed
@@t_r_a_y_e9858 Idc if he tried😂
@@KountourisYT I mean it's the effort that counts right 😂
@@t_r_a_y_e9858 I guess if it was real life 😂
I like how they did it because it had Jerome get the last laigh
Gotham couldn't use the joker because wb would rather invest in jared leto's joker than jerome/jeremiah 🤦🤦🤦
I heard that quote before, you got that quote from the video that explains why you should watch Gotham didnt you?
@@carlosjavier771 sort of
Cameron should play joker in the Matt Reeves
They could put the red hood in first Matt Reeves movie like the origin of joker and then in post credits scene would see joker and they make a sequel with the joker as the main villain. That would have look good without take the shine of the penguin or riddler.
CJ HUMALA ihtop films
I just love jeremiah. Im sorry but i do. I liked his relationship with bruce. You don’t notice that bruce was there for him with the whole jerome situation which is why he cared so much. I liked his character and the fight between them was epic and satisfying and as annoying it may seem, i like the story just the way it is. My only problem with it all to me is just the finale of gotham season 5
The last bit of it was indeed rushed
Watching back the ace chemicals episode with my friend, I said that when Jeremiah was getting beaten up by Bruce, there should be a BRAZZERS logo at the bottom
@@alexandersmith7061 You feel it, don't you, Bruce?
Do you think that Gotham will do a comic that continues from the end of the finale like Smallville did?
TheDCLogical :. I would be pleased if they did
1700 MARS
Same
Plausible
Gotham: Year One. . _.
Yh Anything is possible in Gotham
totally agree with you dude. Jerome would have been the best way to go
You're singin' my song, Boba. This is my kinda video.
Joke man man
It's the pupster
that's a cute comment. did your husband give it to you?
@@greategretpictures R E N T ?
I would have liked to see them explore the 3 Jokers concept from the comics to run with things in season 4. Kind of like how the they acknowledged that Harley had predecessors in the comics and Jay commented that there were always more fish in the sea after killing Ecco. Honestly, I'd love a continuation arc where you saw Jay subtly grooming Harleen to make her the new Ecco. Encouraging her to use the word "Puddin", to lean in to her accent, etc. A vague suggestion that in Jerimiah's broken mind that he's trying to recreate what he lost with Harley.
I know I’m late but damn the thumbnail is amazing! How you lined up Jeremiahs smile with jeromes gave me chills. Good job boba
This show has gone out as a show with so so so much wasted potential due to WB.
I love them both Valeskas equally for different reasons. They were both brilliant yet very different sides of The Joker. Jerome was more like the Modern Age Joker, Joker from the Arkham games, and the DC Animated Universe Joker with hints of Ledger and Nicholson while Jeremiah was more like Frank Miller's Joker, Killing Joke Joker, Ledger, and Golden Age Joker.
boba you must really love the joker character huh? :)
Qronicッ hm probably
Who doesn't
Ofcourse he loves the joker
@@jidzplayz5577 MCUtards dislike anything DC because they're such huge fans and know everything about marvel
@@Ok-eg8dg no
Imagine if after Bruce refused to kill Jerome in season 3 Jerome becomes obsessed with proving to Bruce that he is evil just like him thus beginning the neither kill each other clash of ideologies relationship we know in the comics.
This would've been the best way to go. Jerome becoming obsessed with corrupting Bruce, while Bruce kinda becomes obsessed trying to reform Jerome into a better person.
I agree with every word you said, Boba! Those are my thoughts exactly. They had him come back from death once, so they should have kept with that. No matter how much I love Jeremiah (which is just as much as Jerome), they should have kept the OG, 'J'. Very well put together video, very detailed explanation, and as always a job very well done! Keep up the good work, Boba! And enjoy your holiday, you deserve one!
The story of MR.J (Joker) in Gotham is one of the best for me, from the beginning to the end. Cameron Monaghan played a lot of joker variations and partly in his own way and I really liked that. He should get the joker in the next Batman movie against Robert Pattinson that would be great
we can't make better than cameron monaghan
Jerome is the best Joker.
Fight me.
LeonOrenValentine he ducking sucked being the best I highly doubt it. Heath was 10times beyond his level
@@dayknight9045 let's not get crazy. Cameron is a top 3 joker so let's not go coco.
@FoxRNG But he was basically a live-action version of the one from The Killing Joke combined with Frank Miller's Joker and Joker when he made his debut during the Golden Age. Like in The Killing Joke, one bad day turned him into who he is & his origin was "multiple choice" in addition to the fact that he tried to prove that anyone can be corrupted enough to become like him, which is what he was trying to prove by trying to drive Commissioner Gordon mad in The Killing Joke whereas in The Dark Knight, he did it to Harvey Dent instead and did it to Batman and the rest of Gotham. As for his personality, it's less like how Joker's often depicted and more like how Joker was originally depicted when he was first created, a cold and calculating criminal mastermind and less of the perpetually grinning and laughing and visibly manic Joker that many know him to be. Frank Miller's Joker had a similar personality too and his obsession with Batman and chaos were similar too.
Jerome the best joker
4:38 Which is one of the dumbest DC Related Decisions WB ever made.
Jerome was perfect from the beginning as the pre-Joker. The producers should have just committed to the character (even if they couldn't call him the Joker) instead of coyly teasing this "inspiration for the Joker" nonsense. Let's kill him off! Then bring him back! Then kill him off again! Oh, and he has a twin brother who will eventually be the real Joker!
Wiser words have never been spoken.
Agreed. They should've just keep the character and make him fall into the acid wat. But we never see Jerome ever again, but we still get a tease that he survived. They could've just keep him around and have him as the Joker, without saying out-right that he is the Joker.
Jeremiah season 5 not counting last episode my favorite joker ever done
Disagree Boba.
I love Jerome but I prefer Jeremiah for being a more unique take on the Joker & his relationship with Bruce. I think they did the Joker story amazingly across the show, and for a long time I didn’t want Gotham to give a definitive Joker origin. But they won me over in S4. I loved the intrigue and twists and ideology/legacy aspect. Definitely 100% happy personally with how they did it.
That’s my problem, Gotham is a origin story to “batman” so Jeremiah being a unique villain became a great villain yes but as a joker he was boring, I love joker because his charisma was so unpredictable, I was on my toes when Jerome held a whole party including bruce and Alfred hostage but I “just” knew Jeremiah was going to lose because who in fiction hasn’t tried to blow up the city and failed
If your plan is gonna be cliché and boring might as well have fun doing it instead of looking like a smart ass with no personality then look stupid when you lose
If I were to write this, I would have kept Jerome alive. Everything plays out the same leading up to Jerome’s death, except when he falls he is caught by a police tarp (can’t think of the name). He is then locked away in GCPD. Jeremiah still receives the gift and gets disfigured, yet he keeps hiding it via makeup. Meanwhile, Jeremiah and Bruce get closer and closer. Jeremiah was locked away for 15+ years with only Ecco to keep him company. Now Bruce is reaching out and Jeremiah feels like he has a friend for the first time. Meanwhile, there are rumors of Jerome causing mass hysteria even when he is locked away in solitary confinement. Here, Bruce and Jeremiah reach their sole disagreement. Bruce wants to see Jerome brought to justice, while Jeremiah wants to kill him. Jeremiah breaks into Jerome’s cell and is prepared to do the deed before he is whisked away by Ra’s al Ghul. That story continues to play out as Ra’s makes Jeremiah even more obsessed with Bruce. Jerome breaks out simultaneously and rallies his followers to burn down Gotham once and for all. Jerome starts targeting buildings like Jeremiah did in the real show while Ra’s and Jeremiah blow all the bridges, cutting off Gotham from the mainland. Jeremiah then kills Ra’s at his request, thus gaining control over the League of Shadows only until Bruce takes up the mantle by breaking his one rule. Season 5 starts with Jeremiah attempting to pull Bruce over to the League of Shadows while Jerome continues to wreak havoc in Gotham. It all culminates the same way with Bruce fighting Jeremiah and Jerome in ACE Chemicals only for BOTH Jerome and Jeremiah to fall into the same vat of acid which is then flushed out into Gotham’s river system. That is the last anyone sees of Jerome or Jeremiah. Ecco is then committed to Arkham where she remains comatose in shock over Jeremiah’s death. However, years later in the Series Finale, a mysterious burned figure who calls himself J appears, and no one can tell which Valeska brother it is.
Yep, I agree. Jerome carried the show
I'd say Penguin, but whatevs
Jeremiah valeska is the best joker ever made in history
Jerome valeska was no joker but he carried the Gotham tV show at least for me a great insanely unstable joker fan opinion
10:46 correct me if I'm wrong but Jerome's henchman looks like the same actor who played Heath Ledger's Joker's henchman in The Dark Knight.
It was the same actor
He was hes been in the flash as well
Barnzooka he was
I think they should've went with ONE character from season 1, like a fused character of Jerome and Jeremiah. And give him that shyness of Jeremiah, but at times that psychology of Jerome. Sort of like a personality disorder, and then later on somehow he goes fully insane and cues that Jeremiah laughing, clenching his own head scene, and give him Jerome's crazy crazy personality with aspects of Jeremiah's cold and calculative personality. Finally in season four cue the Bruce and Jeremiah/Jerome character battle ending up with the Jeremiah/Jerome character falling in the chemicles. Now the timeskip, he awakens when Bruce returns to Gotham, and he has a half Jerome and half Jeremiah personality.
The only problem with Jerome was that they killed him in season 4.
since bat man revealed there is multiple people playing the joker ((least 3)) i wish gotham could have gone longer and it turns out there is triplets each with there own personalities and quirks you had jerome being the anarchist / spot light mass murdering joker ...the one that doesnt have a plan and just does.......your got jerimiah who is obbessed with the relationship who is super sane aspect of the joker and then have a 3rd J with other quirks....basicly dont permently kill any of the 3 and made the audiance feel like there is only 1 that periodicly had mood / personality shifts then later towards the end not that badman/gorden/brucewayne find out but the audiance finds out that there is 3 the whole time ....that would of paid super ommish to the commics i know the triple joker wasnt revealed till after gotham started but i think it might of been cool if they went that way ....maybe the 3 would be friendemies in a since that they are each competeing to be the best joker BUT sometimes will plan and conspirer together just some ideas ive always loved how there was least 2 people being the joker or spirit of the joker especially after finding out cannonly there is more then 1 anyways
The twin brother thing really jumped the shark.
After playing jedi fallen order I can’t not unsee cal kestis (same actor)
Here's my thought. If you're going to kill off Jerome for Jeremiah to assume his position, there's no point in Jerome existing except buying time story line wise; but seeing the end goal of Jeremiah becoming Joker taints / diminishes Jerome's arc, ultimately seeing he's worthless unless you're to do a multi-joker universe! I mean, people hated Jeremiah season 4 because he didn't have classic Joker characteristics that Jerome possessed, but again if he had said traits, than there's no point in Jerome.. So to quote a Gotham episode.. "Damned if you do..".
My idea for Joker would of been that Jack Napier would of been at the circus like Jerome except he would’ve had a semi-close relationship with Bruce maybe even being there when Thomas and Martha Wayne are killed and from that it slowly starts to twist him to the point that as he visits Bruce in the alley, Selina could see him smiling. I would’ve loved that foreshadowing but yeah Jack could’ve easily descended into the Red Hood Gang slowly subsiding away from Bruce maybe Bruce pushes him away. But Jack would in fact be creepy and would probably be Joker-esque when not only the cops try to stop him but Bruce tries to remind him of the friendship they once had but it leads to Jack falling and we would of seen him as Joker two seasons later or teased in the next season prior to him falling would make Bruce guilty.
That’s how I would’ve done Joker in Gotham.
I agree about the building of the relationship between Bruce and Jeremiah. It was only for 1.5 episode? I wish it would have been for more. But I really like Jeremiah, how he sees Bruce as a friend and his conception about friendship. I mean he never had a friend so, to be along with someone who congrats you for your job, it must have been a huge hug for Jeremiah.
Just few episodes more about them and Jeremiah's obsession would have been so great to watch
Ironically the TV joker is much better than some of the film ones 🥴 Despite all the restrictions - Gotham created a phenomenal joker storyline even with all of the flaws. I really loved the show and nearly all of the characters in it.
5:32 The whole Fear of Diluting the brand stance is just dumb.
especially since monaghans performance is universally praised
Seriously! It’s batman, whoever sees that a batman movie is going to come out they’re going to go see it regardless of the show.
You think if we got more seasons they would've one a Jerome vs Jeremiah episode with Jerome being brought by again
@@DanW21 with more seasons the Jerome clone would study Jeremiah's tactics as jeremiah tortures him then kills jeremiah becoming the shows third proto-joker then they would kill him too at some point and then some random guy falls into the chemicals and becomes the fourth proto-joker who inspires the real joker in the finale, just my thought
@@InitialPC Theres only 3 Jokers.
Or it was only because of fucking *copyright issues*! They didn't even gave Gotham a chance to do that. They said they're reserving these for Jared and Phoenix, i know yeah the two did good job at it. But Cameron can make Joker more popular that even a filipino like me love Cameron's Joker.
Honestly he is in my top 3 jokers so because he matches the feel of Gotham. What I really enjoy about the show Gotham is the fact that give the city the best representation yet I have felt that with all of the other versions Gotham never felt like the most crime ridden city in the world. Sure there where a lot of bad people in the city but it visually did not show how bad it was the show Gotham captures it perfectly with all of the crime bosses and and simple killers and robbers to the criminally insane and how the police department had to be run.
I never understood why they killed him in the first place. Seriously all they had to do was never call him Joker, the Joker as an idea angle could have been used by the end if they never wanted to fully embrace him as Joker
Lovin the goatee and mustache boba!!! Some serious Green Arrow vibes
I'm happy with what they did. Variety is the spice of life. We have seen more variations and unique Joker styles this way
Here is a better storyline:
Bruce fights Jerome Valeska in ACE Chemicals, and finally snaps killing Jerome leaving Bruce with a heavy weight on his shoulders since he killed someone and broke his code which makes him vow to it even more.
Jeremiah would still be the main villain of Season Five and the end of Season Four, and Jerome would still gas him starting to make him go insane. But Jeremiah would finally decide he wanted to truly torment Bruce when he finally realized despite the fact that Jerome was evil he was still his brother and went full on insane.
Jeremiah would take many examples from Jerome making it even more that Jerome started this Joker idea that many others followed including Jeremiah as he tormented Bruce going full on Joker.
Jeremiah would still be J at the end of Season Five, and talk about how something bigger was coming, but Jeremiah would die at the end of Season 5 making it clear that the Valeskas started the idea of Joker and someone would pick up the mantle.
On a final note finding Jeremiah should have been a major plot line in Season Four instead of a 3 Episode or so plot, Jeremiah could have also worked at Gothcorp in Season Four and Season Five, but in Season Five we would see him snap was Jerome died quitting Gothcorp to be a Villain to Bruce.
P.S: This Plot would have worked a even better if Gotham got at the very least a full 22 Episode long Season Five.
I think that maybe having Jeremiah be introduced earlier on in the series or them having more seasons could have gone the Smallville Clark & Lex route with Bruce and Jeremiah being best friends like brothers but because of Jerome, Jeremiah would slowly start to turn into The Joker and by the end Jeremiah becomes Joker at the same time as Bruce becomes Batman and this could’ve truly played on the whole “one bad day” idea from the Killing Joke and it would make sense why Batman would want to help Joker rather than kill him as they were friends/brothers once. Jerome’s legacy of anarchy and madness would be solidified by creating The Joker through his brother while managing to not have him be replaced by Jeremiah. Would’ve made a helluva twist on the Batman mythos.
How about jerome doesn't die, and jeremiah got a copy of the plans of jerome. And then jerome and jeremiah would have some sort of contest of those plans, with jerome doing it in an insane way, and jeremiah doing it in a "sane" way
The only thing I like about Jeremiah was his look and the fight between him and Bruce at Ace chemicals in season 4. I felt like that fight was straight out of the comics
I have to agree with you Boba, honestly, as much as I love Jeremiah, Jerome should've been our Joker in the end. Also, just a thought, I wish that after Jerome and Bruce's fight in season 3, that when we saw him again in season 4, his mood would've changed for Bruce for not killing him in season 3, like a reflection to Batman not killing Joker after their fight in Arkham Origins the first time. That way, it would make him understand Bruce a lot more in the future (if he hadn't been killed off) and he would've been the one to fight Bruce in Ace Chemicals.
He’s so right about Jerome should have been I’m ace chemical with Bruce
Great review like alway. I love the different alterations of Jokers throughout the seasons.
My idea for the joker (Gotham) . Like the start, Jeremiah works as a detective with Gordon. He works with Bruce and he’s get super close to him. Like they become best friends. Then author fleck (pre-joker) causes chaos and little by little, finds mind tricks and used it on Jeremiah. Then author fleck makes the same smoke they used for laughing gas.
Jeremiah becomes the joker but he doesn’t realize but he does become more protective over Bruce and he starts to get paranoid. Bruce has issues with someone and Jeremiah took his first kill. BOOM joker origins
I don't mind the having Jerome and Jeremiah both being Joker. I liked both iterations, but I would have liked it more if the relationship between the twins was explored more before killing one of them off and that Jeremiah and Bruce's would had more time to build up their friendship imo. Idk maybe if Jeremiah was shown in an earlier season or if Gotham had two more seasons there would been more time to flesh out his Joker.
I think that they should’ve had several different jokers just kind of appear.
Like every season a different person just becomes completely unhinged and forms a cult, and Cameron monohan could be two of them, and in that way they could set up from the beginning that the joker is an idea and the audience didn’t get attached to one person.
This whole entire show can be described as “could’ve been much better”. They got the wrong person to do the show man. What a shame.
Wait now...... Jeremiah had been alone with just echo for the majority of his life, so the fact that Bruce embraces him and a friendship with him made Jeremiah feel an instant connection with him! He was Jeremiah’s best friend, it was his only friend!!
I love them both. Personally Jeremiah better, but i agree with you. love u boba
I do think that Jerome should have been the Joker, I adored Jeremiah but on reflection Jerome was way better. Also I personally wasn't a fan of Season 5 Jeremiah, I much preferred him in Season 4, he was way more intelligent
I do ultimately think Jerome would have been better to stick with yes (especially knowing how more leeway the directors would get with the Joker), but I do have to give credit to how they did manage to still pull off the twin story. A lot of shows/movies that try to do the twin twist make it *too* predictable and a little boring. They used each twin to then create one joker so for me it was nice to see each side of the joker in more depth.
Before Jerome got popular wasn't the original plan for Gotham's Joker for there to be a bunch of people who could possibly become him and it'd be up to the audience's imagination which one did after the series ended?
I respect your opinion, I just want to know if Jeremiah was in Jerome's spot and Jerome was in Jeremiah's spot with their looks and personalities kept the same, would you have changed your opinion? You did bring up the history thing and how it would feel more satisfying if the person from the beginning was in the end, so I think I know the answer to this question, just wanna make sure.
Sorry for the run on sentences 😂
Hey boba big fan! I have to say while I agree with you from a story and character standpoint it would have made more sense to have Jerome be the Joker absolutely. However the truth is I just personally like the character of Jeremiah valeska more so from a personal standpoint I am happy with the way things turned out....and honestly it seems I liked the whole 5th season alot more then most people did...but agian that's more of a personal standpoint.
#BobaTalks as much as love Jerome, I still feel the Jeremiah joker was way better. If he started in season one and not Jerome.
If you really read most comics of the joker, It was extreamly vastly intelligent artist and Anarchist Who laughed alot But at the same time was very serious. In one comic joker says " Look I'm the joker I don't randomly kill people I only kill people if it's funny what could be possibly be funny about killing you". Jeremiah clearly fits that Jeremiah only thought it would be funny Have a twisted relationship with Bruce Wayne Just like Heath Ledger joker wanted a twisted relationship with the Batman. Jerome Did not They portrayed him as a murderer psychopathic killer who just wanted to kill people just because. Though the comic version of joker Always had a reason the kill A Motive, And objective To get a point across. Jerome had none, "He just wanted to destroy things". If Jeremiah was in season one Expended his character With the adaptation of season 5 Before the last episode which was horrible. It would be the best Joker in Gotham. Given you can't use the name joker, So they made an ideology about him which I thought was OK what I really did like about Jerome more than anything was that they killed the character and brought him back from the dead. I think when they killed the character and brawn back from the dead joker was born because he believed That life itself was a joke anyone and everyone to see the way that you saw the world his eyes like When he was dead. They did that to Jeremiah and kept him least bit sane He could have been the best. Though that's my opinionTo be honest I just think Jeremiah to pull it off if he was in the beginning, But no one asked me so.
I don’t think this would’ve worked because the chemicals is supposed make Joker into the Joker it’s supposed to make him all maniacal and a narcissist Jerome was already insane like that so Jeremiah was better we see him go from a calm and cunning villain to the narcissistic Joker so if it was Jerome it’d spoil the fun of seeing him go from I guess you can say normal since Jeremiah was so calm about things to a complete psychopath so I disagree with this but I did prefer Jerome I know I’m more than late on this but I still decided to put this
Jeremiah actually was also always fucked up. Actually according the jerome even more so fucked up. I think it's explain the chemicals did jack shit to him other then feeling pain and what not. Besides this is just one popular story you csn still make a joker story where he was always insane.
@@cngotham4111 I mean he was for sure messed up but not as much as Jerome to an extent
@@ilovezoom3719 I'm talking about when there was kids. I believe Jerome talks about how Jeremiah would do fucked up things but no one believed Jerome during that time. If anything the chemicals made Jeremiah show his insanity
@@cngotham4111 ahh well you weren’t specific enough but ok now I see
For my version of what I would've done, the entire show would've had to change. I would've kept season 1 and made that tone consistent. I would keep the Jerome scene and then season 4 would be the last season in the Gotham world with the last season being a mixture of time jumps for one overarching story. And Jerome would not appear at all throughout the show untill season 5. I would have an episode begin with a man leaving Arkham asylum. You see his feet and him getting a new name. Wehn he leaves. You see his face. Later on we cut to him 4-5 years after where he has a family he can't support. And then the killing joke origin would happen but it wouldn't have any ties to the killing joke other than that
Cool change
Yes!
I agree with this in alot of ways. As much as I love how it ended up, the biggest problem for me was the constant retconning of their previous decision on what to do with the Joker. They had a guy who could maybe be the Joker, then they brought him back and killed him off saying he just "inspired the Joker", then they brought him back to life and then went back on that by killing him again. Then he had a twin brother who was actually said to be the Joker by the cast, but then they retcon that and said he's also not the Joker, but then he fell into a chemical vat meaning he had to be the Joker, but then they retcon that and said that this whole thing was just the 3 Joker storyline with each character representing a different version of the Joker.
I'm perfectly fine with them doing the 3 Joker storyline and it ended being really great in the end, but I wish they had one clear vision from the start and didn't have to constantly change their minds on what to do, cause it left things quite messy
Late reply I know but had to comment. Warner bros didn't allow the show to use the joker. They gave us that phenomenal first episode and that was all we were supposed to get when they brought him back warner bros started making a fuss the studio answered hes just similar to him, not really the joker but the more similar he got and the more popular wb kicked off. The show killed him off and said see he isn't the joker. Then they brought him back and killed him off for his twin who also was similar but different. Unfortunately that inconsistency was all wb allowed them to do and I think they made an amazing thing out of a bad situation. All itineraries of Cameron monaghans joker make him the best for me. But I have a preference for Jeremiah. The cold calculating madness and the obsession with Bruce Wayne was just perfect. Not that I didn't love Jerome though
Cameron Monaghan is the best honestly in playing the Joker/Valeska brothers!
Love that Joker
Geoff good gamer I understood that reference
@@vibranttrash4036 I understand "that" reference.
I think Jeremiah was necessary. Jerome would've gotten old. I don't see Jerome wearing makeup and purple suits. But they could've made the blimp of laughing gas go into the river and jerome fall into the river. But I'm real happy with what they went with but Jeremiah should NOT have been a twin brother maybe just some random guy. Idk it's fine. It makes sense. It's good but he DEFINITELY should've been retconned to be the true identity of a character we've seen since the beginning. Maybe even from Season 1.
10:51 naw u right, he the real G
I still think they did well considering they were restricted with what they were allowed to do , and personally I prefer Jeremiah because the costumes are way better and accurate. They could have kept some of jerome’s personality in Jeremiah also Jeremiah has a better name x .
I'm just annoyed that they never did anything with the teaser that there might be a clone of Jerome out there.
@Minimal Interest Listen to the final scene in S2. Jerome is still dead at this point, and you can hear his laugh as well as the back of a ginger man's head.
Wonderful video!
Who know how I would handle a somewhat joker story
S1/adding a crime family know as the red hood gang and we follow two new members Lonnie & jay Machin where they deal with the current death of there parents
S2/Lonnie ultimately is killed in front of jay and jay what's revenge on the killer
S3/jay starts to show interest in becoming the next leader but is kicked out of the reed hood gang
S4/jay fells betrayed but what's to spread chaos
S5/jay ultimately became Anarchy
See what I did a bait an switch where both anarchy and joker are similar and a simple storyline
They should simply evolve Jerome
Facts
Good vid boba
Excellent joker, I still think Jerome being joker would’ve been so much better but jermiah is also excellent, his laugh, look and overall really good
Gotham really messed up the Joker.
Nope
Gotham dropped the ball due to the lack of time spent on Jeremiah. The finale was way too short! The finale should have been 2 hours to make the battle inside ACE Chemicals more impressive.
I think you misunderstand Jeremiah's role.
For starters jeremiah and Bruce were friends for a couple years. And were considered best friends which already adds a unique dynamic.
On the other hand Jerome had no love or care for bruce and only wanted to hurt him.
Another thing is it's very much Jerome's fault why jeremiah ends up the way he does so in a way jeremiah Is a part of jerome which makes sense in many ways.
I would have loved to have one more season with jeremiah and just one more season with Gotham in general.
But even so having two different people albeit twins play versions of the joker fits into the new comic canon as well that their have been three different primary jokers in the main universe. Which is meh but whatever
This show still could have been amazing without Jeremiah and Jerome. I think The Riddler and The Penguin carried this show so much on their back they are in the hospital crippled.
I think one cool thing they could have subtly done, still could technically be true although they never alluded to it, would be the three Jokers. I remember in one comic Batman discovered there are three Jokers and if instead of killing of Jerome, they could have kept him alive but he may have gone into hiding or something, idk. This way, due to the Valeska clone hinted at in season 2 finale, there could have theoretically been three Jokers and if they handled other stuff differently it could have been even better.
I think they kinda did that with post acid Jeremiah, since he is supposed to be different from Jeremiah before and a completely different person, I think they did put a Easter egg for that with them. Since it’s Jerome, Jeremiah, and J or Joker.
Only if Jerome and Jeremiah where morphed as one big character the Joker
Wow what a great surprise for my day!!!
I think if Jerome fell into acid, most people would think he was a Heath ledger origin, Soo having him survive might cause argument between DC movies and Gotham series
I think WB should have obtained the rights to use the Joker by name on "Gotham," first. Then, they should have made Jeremiah and Jerome a composite character, a psychotic super-genius domestic terrorist, gangster, cult-leader, serial killer and active shooter, complete with UA-cam decapitations of hostages and manifestos. They should have used the beginning "Perma-Clown" look after the Ace Chemicals toxic bath, like the comic book and 1989 Batman movie. The face-removal and stapling could be done in later episodes or seasons, like the New 52 comics. For a realistic origin, they could omit the acid bath and face-stapling and just put Jeremiah/Jerome in clown makeup, like the" Dark Knight" Joker, the best film version of all time. If they liked Jared Leto's Joker, they should have given Gotham's Joker full-body tattoos, Echo Harley Quinn's name and career and a gun collection, appropriate for a domestic terrorist, mob boss and mass shooter. To demonstrate Jerome Valeska's psychosis, WB should have shown hallucination scenes, like in "Black Swan," "Naked Lunch" and "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas." They should also have included all the humor-themed gadgets of the original comic book and "Batman," such as Joker Venom, high-voltage joy buzzer, Jokermobile, etc. I liked Cameron Monaghan's performance as Jerome and Jeremiah Valeska. The Joker cult was original and awesome! It should have been religious, recruited college students, had a compound, gun collections and harems, like real cults. Good legal team and a little more research would go a long way!
I wish they would’ve started with the Jerimiah version and kept that character throughout it was just a little more chaotic joker type of character to me especially with how obsessed he was with Bruce throughout the seasons.
I think they did alright. If it was ME doing things, after they all leave the scene, and Jeremiah is in his maze/house, he opens the package and it's just knockout gas, play a SLIGHTLY different audio message from Jerome..... cut to Jerome's body being discovered missing from the M.E's at GCPD. CUT to a room filled with medical equipment, Jeremiah tied down to a hospital bed with an oxygen mask on his face, Prof. Strange being held at gunpoint by Jeremiahs men, (dialog dialog, dialog), transfer what's left of Jerome's mind from his barely alive brain INTO Jeremiah while Joker toxin gets pumped into his lungs through the mask. BAMM ! , STILL a better twist than the water allergic aliens in "Signs". :-D
And then Jerome would do the same thing with Jeremiah that Joker tried to do with Batman in Arkham Knight ?
A thought a friend and me had on how the Joker could have been done better is basically "combine" both Valeska brothers into one, with the help of Hugo Strange. Now where me and my friend differed is that he felt that there should have been another Red Hood (lets call him Jack Napier for now) that gives the GCPD a hard time and Bruce tries to help, but things go south and Jack Napier Red Hood falls in the chemical vat and presumably dead, only to be fished out by Hugo Strange (for a reason to be explained) and have his face replaced with the scared up Jerome face and look as paper white as Jeremiah. Also getting his brain removed to be replaced with both Valesca's brains (or at least a dominant half), the chaotic half of Jerome and the calculative half of Jeremiah. He believed it would make for a good confliction of personalities and make him feel a bit close to both Bruce and Batman. My thought was similar but cut out the middle man (Jack Napier) and just have both Valesca's in Jeremiah after the chemical vat scene. Hugo Strange fishes him out, does the brain business with Jeremiah and Jerome, and then you get a joker with pep in his step. But that's how we felt, either way we're okay with how the show ended really and it had a resolute conclusion that we could walk away from and reflect on how each character got to where they are now.
As cool as it would have been to see Jerome become the Joker I am fine with the route the show did and making Jeremiah Joker! Both characters are great and extremely interesting and Jerome’s legacy made Jeremiah the Joker and he lives on through Jeremiah and in his head! The show runners said that neither Valeska brother would be the joker which I guess is technically true as Jeremiah was reborn when he fell into the vat of acid at Ace Chemicals as the Joker but he still has Jeremiah’s memories so pretty much season 4/5 Jeremiah is an origin story for the Joker just like Batman’s and when Bruce fully becomes Batman in the ten year time jump Jeremiah fully becomes the Joker and will be called that from then on! I like how they’re stories mirror each other!
Agreed with you BOBA Jerome is the real MVP
My thing is that Jerome was written to want Bruce dead at all costs. Jerome's obsession was different than Jeremiah's. He didn't want to become Bruce's best friend or brother. Also when you stated that Jerome didn't care about Bruce in Season 4 that's untrue cause in Jerome's final episode when he takes that group of people hostage he demands Jeremiah, Gordon AND Bruce to be brought to him so he could kill them all. Than in the episode where Jeremiah reveals his evil side, he shows Bruce Jerome's journal where he wrote about his desire to kill Jeremiah, Gordon and Bruce. So he was still obsessed. I see your point though that Jerome WOULD have made more sense since he WAS Gotham's original Joker. But if I recall correctly the showrunner stated that when they decided to keep Jerome around (he was only supposed to appear in season 1 as an Easter egg and possible foreshadowing) that they never intended for him to become the Joker. He was meant just to begin that story and the ideology which to me was a creative way around not being able to bring the definitive character in. Although like you said in the end it's pretty obvious that Jeremiah is the Joker.
Issue with Jerome; he’s too...Joker right from the get go. There wouldn’t be a big journey to him becoming Joker when he practically is joker without make up.
Nice video. My debate.
Now to give you the another outlook of the Veleska Twins. You never mentioned it and no one actually has ever mentioned it.... But- you talked about how Jeremiah didn’t have a long and personal connection with Bruce like Jerome had since Season 1.
Well. I beg a differ. Why.
- Let’s go back (or fast forward) to when Jerome broke out from Arkham in S4 w/ Crane and Oswald.
Who was Jerome searching Gotham for?
- His Uncle and he tried the Three Soups... he needed information, a address. From there he goes to the office to ask for who?
- Asking for Zander Wild.... remember the fireworks Jerome brought on that day/episode
Let’s fast forward some more... too... “the Deadman trigger”. The 1st one lol. (Season 4, E18)
After Jim brings Bruce and Jeremiah to Jerome as asked.
JEROME... sits down and tells his story about him and his brother. Go back. Watch and listen to the story. Jerome sits down in the chair and talks about the history.
Point is. They had different paths of life.
- The parents he was referring to was.... Thomas and Martha Wayne. The common bond... was Bruce.
Jerome being upset that the Wayne’s adopted Jeremiah “secretively” from Gotham
Fast forward to after Jerome’s death... Jeremiah has the same feelings about Bruce.
From this standpoint... he’s always known about the adoption and his “brother” Bruce. Jeremiah always wanted a brother unlike Jerome and he had one in Bruce.... who didn’t even know he existed.
To also feed on... Jerome & Jeremiah always knew one another pretty tough over the years minus not being around each other. They knew there capabilities.
Jerome knew Jeremiah was as crazy and wild as him. And Jeremiah knew it as well, but was able to have a more control over it....... until that night he opened up the box...
I don’t want to continue rambling... maybe I should do a video lmao
Cheers,
Batman Guru Lol
BA Force
Just to let you know, it was never said that it was the Waynes that adopted Jeremiah. Jerome just said some ‘rich folks’, they could’ve been anyone.
Jerome should have been joker
Got any ice creme in there
I was just ranting about this yesterday! The switch and plot was unnecessary. You go from an insane genius to another? That shit had me hot! Lol I just think it was pointless but Gotham is dope!!!!
I like how the 2 "jokers" are based from past versions of Jokers..the first one really gave me a jack Nicholson and Heath ledger joker feel, when he had is face stiched,while the second one reminds me of the animated movie's "the dark night returns" Joker
another cool thing they could have done if they just inserted Jerome into the scenes with Jeremiah and where Jerome would have bombed the bridges then a fun thing to do is still have Jeremiah as a character, but Jerome could have used him to make the bombs and other tech
My fav Storie line was ed
That thumb. Nail is insane
They split the Joker's personality between Jerome and Jeremiah precisely because a full-on Joker would create copyright issues with Warner Brothers as they didn't want the Joker to be featured in Gotham.