Hard to believe people don’t recognize that the vast majority of gametime is solo gametime, even fot those who focus on group gametime (unless they never grind). For anyone who played Warhammer Age of reckoning and experienced the repeated zerging of The Inevitable City should see why 2 factions doesnt balance it well enough. Even if the factions dont ally, the zerging faction needs to know that pushing in on their enemy fully leaves them open to counter
Agree. I'd like to see three generalized factions. A good "blue" faction, an evil "red" faction, and a grey/yellow faction for smugglers, mercenaries and the like. Then every NPC faction will engage you based on your faction and personal reputation. Personal rep was done well as early as Ultima Online. Example: Dreadlord Buzzcut, red faction, allied with Xenothreat would have a tough time making it into the Terra system without a fight.
Nice, you make some good points in this one. Be interesting to see how it pans out. As an ex Planetside 2 player myself, I agree there should be 3 factions as you said.
Without factions the game will fall to the same fate as Last Oasis. Im not sure if many people here would know what it is but those who did play it during season 1 and 2 know that it was entirely dominated by massive clans and alliances between clans. That can be pretty epic and fun at first, but it isnt a sustainable system that is meant to last and eventually kills the game soon rather than later.
Like I said this is the first part of a bigger video which will be much more "professional" and thought out. Factions is a big topic with big thoughts, more than this video can do justice for. I am going to start working on a script for it tonight. OH, and as always, JOIN OUR DISCORD! www.discord.gg/enclaveoilrig
EVE did it right. Factions in the secure space, no factions in the null space. This allowed new players the security of groups and space they could join and grow to mount null space pushes. Null orgs were hostile to everyone. EVE has 4 factions though which to your point proves that 3 is better since players mostly now pick one large primary one (Caldari). However if SC adopted 3 factions that each controlled an area of space not able to be taken over by orgs, and then permitted non-aligned orgs to control org only space, then I think we'd have the best of both worlds currently enjoyed by EVE Online. If ever orgs dominated too much in org space, then faction space would remain as the balance to prep for an invasion and rebalance of org space.
he's in my head, first there was the multicrew thing where I was thinking the exact same, now it's this ? Time to finally put on the duct tape on the webcam uh
Nice to hear someone make sense for a change! I am a solo player in SC, pretty much, and having the factions, three is perfect, should be a major part of any game, like Horde and Alliance back in the day..... And, at the end of a session, it is nice to go back to your faction and reflect on why so much weird shit happened, why I didnt get shit done, and is this game ever going to be released!!
I don't know how it works in other games, but I would imagine being part of faction in lawless system like Pyro would reduce the amount of risk when playing solo and meeting other players, provided that killing players affiliated with your faction would hit your rep hard.
I agree. Factions are key. Plethora of examples. Battlefield, Call of Duty, Halo. I dont care about the player i care about the team effort and the rewards thereof and all without once conglomerating with the team. Although that is very possible and fun in and of itself but it takes the reigns off the player to be the bastion of self destruction.
Shadowbane and DAOC! Frontier of DAOC was real Valhala, paradise for fighters. I really wish frontier-like area came to SC. However, faction itself and number of faction is not enough. In DAOC, there were relics, which acted as common objective across realm other than personal progression, guilds took responsibility to defend the claimed outposts around relic castle. DAOC also suffered from zerging, and the same phenomenon appeared in WOW as well. The population imbalance between factions and the differentiation in army size ultimately marked the end for games adopted the faction system. As Buzz told, when armies belonging to a faction fight in contested zones, it is crucial to maintain balance by giving penalties or costs associated with maintaining the army’s size. In summary, first, there needs to be a common purpose across faction in battles-something that makes players feel those fights really matter for the faction. Second, it's essential to have a means to reasonably compensate for the population imbalance and differences in army size between factions.
Oh for sure. Everyone loved relics and it was a big incentive for people to fight and gang up on others. I just did not wanna go into the history of DAOC too much.
Well said, I hope the economics of running large fleets (not owning) will have a toll… hunting and fighting other players in fighters 24 x7 should have some realistic costs, and small combat ship ranges should be reduced. For me that should help (along with factions) with supply chain gameplay…. Let’s say the max an org could realistically run together would be 100 players. They can’t all run around in fighters forever all month killing. They’ll have to make choices, burn up resources, haul,store, and protect resources or run out of war machine supply. In todays game it’s too cheap to go military all the time
If SC puts different factions in each system, there could be some complex org interactions depending on how those inter-system factions match up. Don't know if that would be good or bad, but it would be interesting. 3 factions per system would be better, but having different numbers of factions in some systems (2 or 3) might force some unique dynamics as well. It could get very complex, and I don't know if CIG is ready for the in-game mechanics needed to support that.
i think it will be a bit of a "crafting" requiring "faction" to earn "Blueprints" to create "goods" to sell to "players" and "players" will require "ammo & equipment" to do "faction grind" the resources farmed and collected converted in to usable items to be traded to players who run missions to gain currency in the star system who buy from the player kiosk shops at their homestead and hangar locations. much as you want it ONLY to revolved around the THEMEPARK stuff it should heavily depend on the crafted commodity market. if you want to run PVP assault you need ballistic ammo which requires harvesting ore and chemicals and other materials to make factory runs of ammo (won't be expensive) everything must require a symbiotic system, you can't rob players if they can also BLACK LIST your org from buying (that could be a feature) if you hit a player you know makes ammo of the type you need cool you just BLACK listed your self or your whole org. sure you can have a 2nd account to buy and trade but idk maybe paperchains could be a thing, which i mentioned with my FAX machine "serial numbers on ammo casing and have investigation go hard core deep" if you can have a Economy that can have any solo player specialize in one reputation field they can unlock craftable schematics for items kind of how you have to pick a class but the bonus is you can always DUMP all faction and roll again and GRIND all the way up another faction tree to get another set of schematics. (i did this in star wars galaxies, ran imperial 3 factions republic 3 factions neutral 3 factions to then go back to grind imperial again so i ran it 10 times it was nearly 2 years of hard work) I really hope factions are fun but i think if the REWARDS ARE BOUNTYFUL enough and diverse enough each star system can keep orgs and solo players very active. best thing about resources in SWG was the "RNG" quality would reroll and some resources in some schematics REQUIRED the planet's version of a resource. because Star citzien is just as BIG in size (SWG was huge multiple planets huge) you have no way to control a resorce without blockades of a whole planet like you be the TRADE FEDERATION the factons for control sure 3 is a good number but i would say this can be an oppotunity to try new things in each star system and just experement also by having each starsystem have UNIQUE currency for the star system and 2ndry for each faction. the UEC is basic items but players might also charge their faction less in faction currency and maybe an exchange rate just comes around by the comodityes value. this could also tip the scales though ecohomoic warfair if one faction can trade their items cheeper and thus it becomes a resorce race because you can't blockade as easily. bottom line for me as it always has been, THE GAME must SERVE THE INTREST OF THE INDIVIDUAL and have socaial interactions tools that AID this before they focus on Faction wars and pvp and Orgs the individual player experence as a solo player must be FUN and addicting. in EU we have HUGE language barriers, so finding orgs getting organized also you have "political" incompatability i noticed this when i joined TEST's voice chat during covid and (you know what i mean BCP they are full Simple Jack.) it's not fun to play with people who you can not resonate with. this project is pretty on point it's cringe but on point. You invested FAR more than i can afford but if i could we would be "Equal" just i live in a socialist SH.
Pretty sure there will be more than 3 groups in Pyro. If not initially but than eventually. Joinable may be debatable but some form of reputation with every faction should be possible even Xenothreat. As of now I think its Headhunters, Citizen of Prosperity (kind of a stupid name), Rough and Ready, Xenothreat, the Overlords and the ones obsessed with the Pyro star that I can't remember their name.
@BuzzCutPsycho in Eve you have 4 factions they are strictly for a sub pvp style called faction warfare. You have 2 factions allied vs the other 2 factions. There are "3rd" party combatants basically pirates, that get drawn in from time to time. But it is a very small group of the pvp community in Eve. The majority of Eves pvp happens in null sec which is between the orgs run by players. And they have broken down in to a few alliances based on the region of space they live in. Notable are Goon Swarm, NCDot, Pandemic Horde/Legion and Test Alliance Please Ignore. What makes the pvp good in Eve is the economic aspect of it. It's not just a mindless destruction. There is a cost to everything and you maybe winning territory but losing because you can't sustain the losses you are suffering. SWG 3 faction PvP worked because it was simple. Rebels, Empire, independent. Each had their draws and drawbacks but it was mostly lore and fluff. Which worked.
I like factions, when you in faction you know who your friend and who your enemy. Right now when you see random player you dont know what expect. He can shoot you or not so you start shoot first.
Yes mate, this is what a lot of us older folks worry about but have had mods ban us from spectrum and others shout at us for saying that it's gonna be too many pirates Vs good if left to the populace. Nearly everyone wants to be dodgy, and those that wanna be a worker don't wanna fight. So pirates win without in-game security like Eves Concord.
Or ITC... my org. In every game we've been in, without factions, pirates always had the upper hand until my org arrived, and then because of our willingness to take a beating while playing the long game, we snowballed into the largest industrial antipirate group in the game, absorbing every good guy and territory of choice, and then totally manifesting a monopoly forcing people to join us, play by our rules, or starve. Pirates by their nature could not mount any effective alliance no matter how hard they tried. We are on course to doing the same in Star Citizen. If orgs were forced to pick a faction, it would serve to create a far greater balance in the game for certain. Don't get me wrong, we don't mind taking over a game to control content on our terms, but to prevent us from doing so, factions are prob a good start. However, EVE online did it right: factions in the common space, no factions in the null space. Best of both worlds.
My personal hope is that every single outpost on ground level ought to be possible to be taken over by players, either legally or illegally. Then you can have a whole combined arms element to try and figure out how to control that resource. Essentially, every outpost should be a jumptown of sorts with you getting a notification when the facility you control has produced the resource it puts out. If your legal claim gets taken over, then UEE sends goons to take it back and puts bounties and missions up to restore control to you.
12:29 and then there’s Day z which is a persistently popular game which has no factions because the checks and balances are that’s it’s a pretty brutal survival game
You have a very good take on this, it is just one part of how CIG may change the way MMOs are played. First, let me say I will not be talking about PvP games in general. We all know how games like Fortnite bring in a butt load of cash for their developers. What I am going to talk about is PvP in MMOs. To this day, no MMO that has full loot PvP in the base game has done well. They either die or have such small populations that hardly anyone plays them. Even our beloved EVE has a tiny population compared to other MMOs. The industry standard is to separate PvP'ers from the majority population of PvE players. Yes, PvP'ers in MMOs are a tiny portion of the population in MMOs but are usually the loudest. They are usually younger players (maybe I should say immature) who love competition, body counts, and being the best in what they do. They are the ones in chats and forums belittling, bad-mouthing, or talking trash to others (especially the PvE player). There is a reason Star Citizen has what is considered one of the best communities there is in gaming. It is because it has not been attractive to this younger group. Two years ago CIG said the average age of players was 50. MMO players tend to be casual adults, they come home from work, sit down, and enjoy a game where they can live, build, and grow in their alternate world (and thus why survival games do so well). The casual adult MMO player will not stay in a game if everything he works for is destroyed or stolen and have to start over again and again because of some PvP'er screaming the battle cry of "Get Gud". MMO companies have had to find ways to separate PvP players from PvE players with tactics such as Battlegrounds, Arenas, Security zones, mutually agreed flags, or PvP-only servers (which are always much fewer in numbers than PvE servers). New World is a good example. In alpha, the game was slated to be full loot PvP. Once they saw what would happen the game was completely shut down and rewritten from scratch before release so that the emphasis was on PvE. They had to bring in mutual flags and PvP zones. I am not the only one who sees this. Josh Strife Hayes has multiple videos on why full loot PvP fails in MMOs and does a better account of it than I can confer. CIG is about to do something new and your take on factions will probably be a big part of this. I am assuming by what has been said that they intend to make security zones such as high-sec, low-sec, and null-sec (EVE reference), this combined with the prison systems (I believe Pyro will have their own version of it based on factions) is my one hope that CIG will prevail where all the others have failed.
Hey I am older and love body counts myself but you aint wrong. Full loot can only work if the loot is easy to come by or doesn't mean too much. Look at all the people running rat kits in Tarkov or ABI. It shows. You clearly know your stuff and we're in major agreement. People like you, I feel, are the majority.
Interesting take. But too early to tell. Until we have proper party tools, consistent VOIP, and org management abilities in game factions might be helpful, but likely not the end all and be all of player alliances. I agree it’s a good start, but man - there is so much more they need to implement before we can see how players will align and work together. Like even Helldivers quick chat options allow players to articulate concisely on objectives. SC is still light years behind.
Star Citizen hangs on the presence of actual gameplay, which 12 years in we are still waiting for. We don't even have halfway acceptable physics. Gameplay hasn't even been put on the drawing board yet, I'm afraid. Factions would be nice, but would be entirely dependent on what the game will end up being. Which is anyone's guess.
it's already a very rare lowkey issue, I'm not part of any orgs or whatever and if I join a random server and accedentally join an org only one, I now have a relentless target on my head to leave like I'm playing gta online. Because I was taking up a player slot out of 100 for one of their org mate. Really petty thing to absolutely ruin a players game night but it is a finite resource to fight over... As we don't have pretty much anything like fine iron to do so with something something also elite dangerous, has factions in the form of power play, players can influance them an "lead" them, but without players they'll continue to do the same thing. As someone again casual and orgless, I've joined the discords or such and done my time hauling power play resources around just to get the exclusive/unique item they sell after some rep. It's not a good system as it really just feels like it doesn't have enough weight but it tried I guess. There's also the player made factions which own a certain sector of space, getting a % of earnings but I never even noticed this occuring outside colonia (the fuck off far lands basically)
@@BuzzCutPsycho its pretty often whenever there's events that "actually" mater like JT for orgs to camp in one server together for. Reminds me of aliances in SoT and if you don't join you'll just be sunk until you leave
Space Pirate cartels, Xenothreat, and the UEE. Or something. Factions are absolutely needed. Low effort commonality with a lower trush barrier for cooperation. If they don't make factions apart of the game, It will be eve online. I'm here for either of em. I enjoy eve, but they ought to do better.
I agree, but I think 3 factions are too few. Only because SC is not simply a combat game but also incorporates non-combat elements like players who would prefer to mine or cargo haul, etc. I can think of economic, moral, and legislative reasons to further break down possible factions. 1 The UEE which are the organized government faction which take forever to get anything done. 2 Messer loyalists who are totalitarian and oppress their own people but can muster large forces. 3 Anarchist (criminals) who have no rules. 4 Home grown civilians who are practical and focus on the near-term threats and want to be left alone. 5 Opportunists merchant/corporation type faction which will do anything for a dollar. When I first started learning about SC and saw that the main human faction was the UEE, a united human government it felt like a huge story telling mistake. Right now there is only one big baddie, the vandual. Everything else is basically a side quest. Once they are defeated the story is basically over. Break up the UEE into factions.
I need something to fucking do other than make money, I don't care about rep either unless it drives gameplay and I have done everything enough, I don't wanna keep doing it for just vredits.
One point I'd like to bring up are the failed games that have factions, but were biased in development. Locking content/resources to one faction with no access given to the other. This results in a broken economy, numerical advantages, and gear discrepancies. Thus, you have the same issue that occurs again even with factions. Prime example is Aion. Certain content was hidden from one faction and placed in an extreme difficulty area, where the opposing faction did not have to contend with the same difficulty. As such these resources and content were locked from one faction due to a broken economy, numerical, and gear discrepancies between factions. What made Aion's situation worse than most is because of these factional imbalances related to resources, content, economic stability, and gear discrepancies directly correlated to factional numerical advantages and disadvantages. In other words just like the video suggests with factionless games, if you didn't join the "winning" faction you were screwed. Prior to the server mergers the only thing that kept the disadvantage factional balance issue in check believe it or not was the Bot population. However, right before the server mergers the Bot Purge happened which destroyed what little economy the disadvantaged faction had left. They literally lost resources that would keep them in contention with the "winning" faction over night. Now throw in server mergers when the Developing Company did not listen to the player base when it was suggested to balance the factional numbers. As a result of the server mergers this discrepancy got exponentially worse as a result. The game lost 50% of its population over night after server mergers. The game was only played by a specific geographical region in the world which did not include the largest markets such as the U.S. market, EU markets and even to some degree the Asian markets. The developer realized this and went so far as to lock out the winning faction for new players and they were not allowed to join the winning faction. The developer also gave acceleration boosts to the disadvantaged faction that the winning faction were not privileged to receive. There's an old saying, "Day late and a dollar short." People at the developing company got fired for the server mergers because they basically destroyed the game when they didn't listen to their player base. For those wondering who the Developer was... It was NCSoft a Korean developer.
@@BuzzCutPsycho 3 if you count the NPC faction. PVP wasn't just Player vs Player it was Player vs Player vs NPC Faction. The only thing they did right regarding this and because of the 3rd faction, was that player factions were only allowed to hold fortresses for so long before the NPC faction took over. These fortresses were where you got end game resources and crafting materials. The problem with the factional imbalance was, numbers, gear, and resources, the disadvantaged player faction could not if ever gain control over the fortresses which put excessive stress on the economy and gear discrepancy to say nothing about the 10:1 ratio player faction numbers issue. The bot population literally supported the economy and gear discrepancy of the disadvantaged faction. So when the bots were purged the disadvantaged faction took a HUGE hit to its economy. And that was compounded even more with NCSoft merging factional imbalanced servers with other factional imbalanced servers. It was as if as you said, the PVP system was an after thought and the original game was never meant to have 2 player factions but rather 1 player faction vs NPC faction. So a lot of the content one faction had access to the other did not. More specifically during level'ing and gearing up to get to the End Game Fortress materials. To give you an idea of gear differences in that game: 1 Advantaged player with top end gear, could and did fight 10:1 and 15:1 odds and win. Gear was so important rather or not you survived a fight. In my case in particular, I remember going to the enemy zone to try to get my level 43 weapon. One of those players fought 16 of us at once, killed all of us except 2 or 3 before we finally killed him. That is how much of a gear difference there was between factions. Now add the fact there were 10 of them to every 1 of us. You should be able to understand why so many people quit that game after the server mergers. This point is important regarding content because I was on the disadvantaged faction. We had to PVP and PVE at the same time to get our level 43 weapon, the other player faction got to go into an instanced dungeon and only fight against NPC's to get theirs. So the difficulty difference between the two factions was highly in favor of the advantaged faction.
Problem with CIG doing it... making it, again, too gamified. Not natural. If you're an Outlaw in one system, you really shouldn't be know in another system. Unless you're a huge big shot kingpin. In other words, you should be able to be aligned with multiple, even opposing factions for many different systems. Unless you become "too big". Which should have benefits in itself.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I believe CIG lacks the ability to create a well balanced MMO due to lack of real leadership and vision. Their solution to staying profitable is selling players new ships, everything else is just extra. I believe SC has so much potential If it had better management .
The great thing about SC is that they can do everything. They can have systems with factions, systems without factions, systems with pvp, systems without pvp. So in the end everyone can play in the area that fits their playstyle the most.
The gameplay at 4:12 looks trash... The AI in a solo game is what should carry it into the 100's of hours and they just stood there. Looking the wrong direction. Then reacted poorly and fell over. After you know the whole story line. After you've unlocked everything. After you have learned the meta builds. The AI should be able to step up to those challenges and give you amazing montages of overcoming the odds or narrow misses but this just feels easy and dry. Instead they reused a frankly terrible difficulty mechanic from previous games where increasing the difficulty just increases hp and damage. So utterly devoid of creativity. Honestly glad I didn't try out Star Citizen. Hope the factions make it better for those who play
I personally think player ran factions would be awesome. Have like 5 or 6 factions, and then there could be wars between different factions. As far as NPC factions I agree with three cap, and then have the player ran factions
Hard to believe people don’t recognize that the vast majority of gametime is solo gametime, even fot those who focus on group gametime (unless they never grind).
For anyone who played Warhammer Age of reckoning and experienced the repeated zerging of The Inevitable City should see why 2 factions doesnt balance it well enough.
Even if the factions dont ally, the zerging faction needs to know that pushing in on their enemy fully leaves them open to counter
Sure does, and the zerging faction needs to feel the heat of logistics too.
Hopefully they steer towards three factions. I'd hate to be the guy that picks the losing faction when there's only two of them.
Agree. I'd like to see three generalized factions. A good "blue" faction, an evil "red" faction, and a grey/yellow faction for smugglers, mercenaries and the like. Then every NPC faction will engage you based on your faction and personal reputation. Personal rep was done well as early as Ultima Online. Example: Dreadlord Buzzcut, red faction, allied with Xenothreat would have a tough time making it into the Terra system without a fight.
That is the perfect trifecta, good, bad, grey. All good games with faction have them.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Good, bad, and PURPLE!
Nice, you make some good points in this one. Be interesting to see how it pans out. As an ex Planetside 2 player myself, I agree there should be 3 factions as you said.
Thanks! I am writing the script tonight at work, PS2 had 3 factions, sadly, it never had the depth PS1 had. But I will touch on all of that.
Without factions the game will fall to the same fate as Last Oasis. Im not sure if many people here would know what it is but those who did play it during season 1 and 2 know that it was entirely dominated by massive clans and alliances between clans. That can be pretty epic and fun at first, but it isnt a sustainable system that is meant to last and eventually kills the game soon rather than later.
Isn't that the game with the silly walkers
As always, Nice vid! Bumping up this algorithm!
Much appreciated!
Like I said this is the first part of a bigger video which will be much more "professional" and thought out. Factions is a big topic with big thoughts, more than this video can do justice for. I am going to start working on a script for it tonight. OH, and as always, JOIN OUR DISCORD! www.discord.gg/enclaveoilrig
EVE did it right. Factions in the secure space, no factions in the null space. This allowed new players the security of groups and space they could join and grow to mount null space pushes. Null orgs were hostile to everyone. EVE has 4 factions though which to your point proves that 3 is better since players mostly now pick one large primary one (Caldari). However if SC adopted 3 factions that each controlled an area of space not able to be taken over by orgs, and then permitted non-aligned orgs to control org only space, then I think we'd have the best of both worlds currently enjoyed by EVE Online. If ever orgs dominated too much in org space, then faction space would remain as the balance to prep for an invasion and rebalance of org space.
That's good to know like I said never played eve so I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about
he's in my head, first there was the multicrew thing where I was thinking the exact same, now it's this ? Time to finally put on the duct tape on the webcam uh
You don't want them to see what you do!
Nice to hear someone make sense for a change! I am a solo player in SC, pretty much, and having the factions, three is perfect, should be a major part of any game, like Horde and Alliance back in the day..... And, at the end of a session, it is nice to go back to your faction and reflect on why so much weird shit happened, why I didnt get shit done, and is this game ever going to be released!!
This game will be released one dayv
There would be about 5 short videos worth of discussion on factions.
Yeah. But I think I can make a well structured and longer one with a script.
@@BuzzCutPsycho short is sweet. A bigger one is not required at this stage since we have no baseline discussion of which to discuss regarding SC.
I don't know how it works in other games, but I would imagine being part of faction in lawless system like Pyro would reduce the amount of risk when playing solo and meeting other players, provided that killing players affiliated with your faction would hit your rep hard.
I would think factions are a great way to stop griefing
I agree. Factions are key. Plethora of examples. Battlefield, Call of Duty, Halo. I dont care about the player i care about the team effort and the rewards thereof and all without once conglomerating with the team. Although that is very possible and fun in and of itself but it takes the reigns off the player to be the bastion of self destruction.
Factions also give people a higher cause to care about other than themselves
@@BuzzCutPsycho this exactly
Shadowbane and DAOC! Frontier of DAOC was real Valhala, paradise for fighters. I really wish frontier-like area came to SC. However, faction itself and number of faction is not enough. In DAOC, there were relics, which acted as common objective across realm other than personal progression, guilds took responsibility to defend the claimed outposts around relic castle. DAOC also suffered from zerging, and the same phenomenon appeared in WOW as well. The population imbalance between factions and the differentiation in army size ultimately marked the end for games adopted the faction system. As Buzz told, when armies belonging to a faction fight in contested zones, it is crucial to maintain balance by giving penalties or costs associated with maintaining the army’s size. In summary, first, there needs to be a common purpose across faction in battles-something that makes players feel those fights really matter for the faction. Second, it's essential to have a means to reasonably compensate for the population imbalance and differences in army size between factions.
Oh for sure. Everyone loved relics and it was a big incentive for people to fight and gang up on others. I just did not wanna go into the history of DAOC too much.
Well said, I hope the economics of running large fleets (not owning) will have a toll… hunting and fighting other players in fighters 24 x7 should have some realistic costs, and small combat ship ranges should be reduced. For me that should help (along with factions) with supply chain gameplay…. Let’s say the max an org could realistically run together would be 100 players. They can’t all run around in fighters forever all month killing. They’ll have to make choices, burn up resources, haul,store, and protect resources or run out of war machine supply. In todays game it’s too cheap to go military all the time
Logistocal checks and balances will be crucial here
If SC puts different factions in each system, there could be some complex org interactions depending on how those inter-system factions match up. Don't know if that would be good or bad, but it would be interesting. 3 factions per system would be better, but having different numbers of factions in some systems (2 or 3) might force some unique dynamics as well. It could get very complex, and I don't know if CIG is ready for the in-game mechanics needed to support that.
Could be. Pyro is a good step towards testing that. With how long it took to get pyro i dont expect any other systems out soon
A in depth faction system video will be welcome !
I'll start writing it
Good points as always; even their existence can provide a foundation for greater gameplay (like capping). Also bamp.
Boom
i think it will be a bit of a "crafting" requiring "faction" to earn "Blueprints" to create "goods" to sell to "players"
and "players" will require "ammo & equipment" to do "faction grind"
the resources farmed and collected converted in to usable items to be traded to players who run missions to gain currency in the star system who buy from the player kiosk shops at their homestead and hangar locations.
much as you want it ONLY to revolved around the THEMEPARK stuff it should heavily depend on the crafted commodity market.
if you want to run PVP assault you need ballistic ammo which requires harvesting ore and chemicals and other materials to make factory runs of ammo (won't be expensive)
everything must require a symbiotic system, you can't rob players if they can also BLACK LIST your org from buying (that could be a feature) if you hit a player you know makes ammo of the type you need cool you just BLACK listed your self or your whole org. sure you can have a 2nd account to buy and trade but idk maybe paperchains could be a thing, which i mentioned with my FAX machine "serial numbers on ammo casing and have investigation go hard core deep"
if you can have a Economy that can have any solo player specialize in one reputation field they can unlock craftable schematics for items kind of how you have to pick a class but the bonus is you can always DUMP all faction and roll again and GRIND all the way up another faction tree to get another set of schematics.
(i did this in star wars galaxies, ran imperial 3 factions republic 3 factions neutral 3 factions to then go back to grind imperial again so i ran it 10 times it was nearly 2 years of hard work)
I really hope factions are fun but i think if the REWARDS ARE BOUNTYFUL enough and diverse enough each star system can keep orgs and solo players very active.
best thing about resources in SWG was the "RNG" quality would reroll and some resources in some schematics REQUIRED the planet's version of a resource.
because Star citzien is just as BIG in size (SWG was huge multiple planets huge)
you have no way to control a resorce without blockades of a whole planet like you be the TRADE FEDERATION
the factons for control sure 3 is a good number but i would say this can be an oppotunity to try new things in each star system and just experement also by having each starsystem have UNIQUE currency for the star system and 2ndry for each faction.
the UEC is basic items but players might also charge their faction less in faction currency and maybe an exchange rate just comes around by the comodityes value.
this could also tip the scales though ecohomoic warfair if one faction can trade their items cheeper and thus it becomes a resorce race because you can't blockade as easily.
bottom line for me as it always has been, THE GAME must SERVE THE INTREST OF THE INDIVIDUAL and have socaial interactions tools that AID this before they focus on Faction wars and pvp and Orgs the individual player experence as a solo player must be FUN and addicting.
in EU we have HUGE language barriers, so finding orgs getting organized also you have "political" incompatability i noticed this when i joined TEST's voice chat during covid and (you know what i mean BCP they are full Simple Jack.)
it's not fun to play with people who you can not resonate with. this project is pretty on point it's cringe but on point. You invested FAR more than i can afford but if i could we would be "Equal" just i live in a socialist SH.
Blueprints have been mentioned and I would not be suprised to see that be how we build ships
Pretty sure there will be more than 3 groups in Pyro. If not initially but than eventually. Joinable may be debatable but some form of reputation with every faction should be possible even Xenothreat.
As of now I think its Headhunters, Citizen of Prosperity (kind of a stupid name), Rough and Ready, Xenothreat, the Overlords and the ones obsessed with the Pyro star that I can't remember their name.
I am xenothreat man myself
@BuzzCutPsycho See? That option needs to be available in game.
Xenothreat rep is listed in 3.24 already, so I'd say the chances are pretty good you can at least make them non-hostile if not full allies.
@@BuzzCutPsychogonna be hard for me to explain to my lawful org why i have so much xenothreat rep 👀
Eve has a 4 faction system... but it is a minor thing. SWG had a 3 faction system for pvp.
how is it now with faction warfare?
@BuzzCutPsycho in Eve you have 4 factions they are strictly for a sub pvp style called faction warfare. You have 2 factions allied vs the other 2 factions. There are "3rd" party combatants basically pirates, that get drawn in from time to time. But it is a very small group of the pvp community in Eve. The majority of Eves pvp happens in null sec which is between the orgs run by players. And they have broken down in to a few alliances based on the region of space they live in. Notable are Goon Swarm, NCDot, Pandemic Horde/Legion and Test Alliance Please Ignore.
What makes the pvp good in Eve is the economic aspect of it. It's not just a mindless destruction. There is a cost to everything and you maybe winning territory but losing because you can't sustain the losses you are suffering.
SWG 3 faction PvP worked because it was simple. Rebels, Empire, independent. Each had their draws and drawbacks but it was mostly lore and fluff. Which worked.
I like factions, when you in faction you know who your friend and who your enemy. Right now when you see random player you dont know what expect. He can shoot you or not so you start shoot first.
Right now everyone is the enemy.
@@BuzzCutPsycho Yes, but many of them dont really wanna kill you but you dont know because you cant read what in their mind.)))
Yes mate, this is what a lot of us older folks worry about but have had mods ban us from spectrum and others shout at us for saying that it's gonna be too many pirates Vs good if left to the populace.
Nearly everyone wants to be dodgy, and those that wanna be a worker don't wanna fight.
So pirates win without in-game security like Eves Concord.
Agreed. Even EVE is taking steps towards faction wars I hear.
Or ITC... my org. In every game we've been in, without factions, pirates always had the upper hand until my org arrived, and then because of our willingness to take a beating while playing the long game, we snowballed into the largest industrial antipirate group in the game, absorbing every good guy and territory of choice, and then totally manifesting a monopoly forcing people to join us, play by our rules, or starve. Pirates by their nature could not mount any effective alliance no matter how hard they tried. We are on course to doing the same in Star Citizen. If orgs were forced to pick a faction, it would serve to create a far greater balance in the game for certain. Don't get me wrong, we don't mind taking over a game to control content on our terms, but to prevent us from doing so, factions are prob a good start. However, EVE online did it right: factions in the common space, no factions in the null space. Best of both worlds.
@@inigma_X nice one, you on EU?
yes.
My personal hope is that every single outpost on ground level ought to be possible to be taken over by players, either legally or illegally. Then you can have a whole combined arms element to try and figure out how to control that resource.
Essentially, every outpost should be a jumptown of sorts with you getting a notification when the facility you control has produced the resource it puts out.
If your legal claim gets taken over, then UEE sends goons to take it back and puts bounties and missions up to restore control to you.
Agreed and soon as combined arms become I a thing I will talk about that. A lot to say.
Yea, the combat needs a lot of work
12:29 and then there’s Day z which is a persistently popular game which has no factions because the checks and balances are that’s it’s a pretty brutal survival game
I had no idea lol
You have a very good take on this, it is just one part of how CIG may change the way MMOs are played. First, let me say I will not be talking about PvP games in general. We all know how games like Fortnite bring in a butt load of cash for their developers. What I am going to talk about is PvP in MMOs. To this day, no MMO that has full loot PvP in the base game has done well. They either die or have such small populations that hardly anyone plays them. Even our beloved EVE has a tiny population compared to other MMOs. The industry standard is to separate PvP'ers from the majority population of PvE players.
Yes, PvP'ers in MMOs are a tiny portion of the population in MMOs but are usually the loudest. They are usually younger players (maybe I should say immature) who love competition, body counts, and being the best in what they do. They are the ones in chats and forums belittling, bad-mouthing, or talking trash to others (especially the PvE player). There is a reason Star Citizen has what is considered one of the best communities there is in gaming. It is because it has not been attractive to this younger group. Two years ago CIG said the average age of players was 50. MMO players tend to be casual adults, they come home from work, sit down, and enjoy a game where they can live, build, and grow in their alternate world (and thus why survival games do so well). The casual adult MMO player will not stay in a game if everything he works for is destroyed or stolen and have to start over again and again because of some PvP'er screaming the battle cry of "Get Gud".
MMO companies have had to find ways to separate PvP players from PvE players with tactics such as Battlegrounds, Arenas, Security zones, mutually agreed flags, or PvP-only servers (which are always much fewer in numbers than PvE servers). New World is a good example. In alpha, the game was slated to be full loot PvP. Once they saw what would happen the game was completely shut down and rewritten from scratch before release so that the emphasis was on PvE. They had to bring in mutual flags and PvP zones.
I am not the only one who sees this. Josh Strife Hayes has multiple videos on why full loot PvP fails in MMOs and does a better account of it than I can confer.
CIG is about to do something new and your take on factions will probably be a big part of this. I am assuming by what has been said that they intend to make security zones such as high-sec, low-sec, and null-sec (EVE reference), this combined with the prison systems (I believe Pyro will have their own version of it based on factions) is my one hope that CIG will prevail where all the others have failed.
Hey I am older and love body counts myself but you aint wrong. Full loot can only work if the loot is easy to come by or doesn't mean too much. Look at all the people running rat kits in Tarkov or ABI. It shows. You clearly know your stuff and we're in major agreement. People like you, I feel, are the majority.
Interesting take. But too early to tell. Until we have proper party tools, consistent VOIP, and org management abilities in game factions might be helpful, but likely not the end all and be all of player alliances.
I agree it’s a good start, but man - there is so much more they need to implement before we can see how players will align and work together.
Like even Helldivers quick chat options allow players to articulate concisely on objectives. SC is still light years behind.
Its still pretending it is an MMO with barely functional 100 man servers
I good faction system should offer Betrayal opportunities for the top members to break the faction and profit.
100%. Making it hard to switch is important too.
Star Citizen hangs on the presence of actual gameplay, which 12 years in we are still waiting for. We don't even have halfway acceptable physics. Gameplay hasn't even been put on the drawing board yet, I'm afraid. Factions would be nice, but would be entirely dependent on what the game will end up being. Which is anyone's guess.
You ain't wrong
The Fate of Star Citizen Hangs on server meshing
And after that accessibility for all players
it's already a very rare lowkey issue, I'm not part of any orgs or whatever and if I join a random server and accedentally join an org only one, I now have a relentless target on my head to leave like I'm playing gta online. Because I was taking up a player slot out of 100 for one of their org mate. Really petty thing to absolutely ruin a players game night but it is a finite resource to fight over... As we don't have pretty much anything like fine iron to do so with
something something also elite dangerous, has factions in the form of power play, players can influance them an "lead" them, but without players they'll continue to do the same thing. As someone again casual and orgless, I've joined the discords or such and done my time hauling power play resources around just to get the exclusive/unique item they sell after some rep. It's not a good system as it really just feels like it doesn't have enough weight but it tried I guess. There's also the player made factions which own a certain sector of space, getting a % of earnings but I never even noticed this occuring outside colonia (the fuck off far lands basically)
It's interesting you experienced that. It actually represents what will happen when things do matter.
@@BuzzCutPsycho its pretty often whenever there's events that "actually" mater like JT for orgs to camp in one server together for. Reminds me of aliances in SoT and if you don't join you'll just be sunk until you leave
Im Buzzing every time you Cut your Psyche xD
is that based?
@@BuzzCutPsycho it is what it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Space Pirate cartels, Xenothreat, and the UEE. Or something. Factions are absolutely needed. Low effort commonality with a lower trush barrier for cooperation. If they don't make factions apart of the game, It will be eve online. I'm here for either of em. I enjoy eve, but they ought to do better.
i am all about XT
I agree, but I think 3 factions are too few. Only because SC is not simply a combat game but also incorporates non-combat elements like players who would prefer to mine or cargo haul, etc. I can think of economic, moral, and legislative reasons to further break down possible factions. 1 The UEE which are the organized government faction which take forever to get anything done. 2 Messer loyalists who are totalitarian and oppress their own people but can muster large forces. 3 Anarchist (criminals) who have no rules. 4 Home grown civilians who are practical and focus on the near-term threats and want to be left alone. 5 Opportunists merchant/corporation type faction which will do anything for a dollar. When I first started learning about SC and saw that the main human faction was the UEE, a united human government it felt like a huge story telling mistake. Right now there is only one big baddie, the vandual. Everything else is basically a side quest. Once they are defeated the story is basically over. Break up the UEE into factions.
UEE is certainly fall of rome so I can see subsect UEE factions. But I was talking from a pvp perspective in pyro for sure.
Interesting
Hm, it’s hard to tell what CIG will do with adding more factions but if there is a way to monetize it you know it’ll happen.
Haha well I can't think of ways right off my head
I need something to fucking do other than make money, I don't care about rep either unless it drives gameplay and I have done everything enough, I don't wanna keep doing it for just vredits.
Agreed. I need meat in my game.
One point I'd like to bring up are the failed games that have factions, but were biased in development. Locking content/resources to one faction with no access given to the other. This results in a broken economy, numerical advantages, and gear discrepancies. Thus, you have the same issue that occurs again even with factions.
Prime example is Aion. Certain content was hidden from one faction and placed in an extreme difficulty area, where the opposing faction did not have to contend with the same difficulty. As such these resources and content were locked from one faction due to a broken economy, numerical, and gear discrepancies between factions.
What made Aion's situation worse than most is because of these factional imbalances related to resources, content, economic stability, and gear discrepancies directly correlated to factional numerical advantages and disadvantages. In other words just like the video suggests with factionless games, if you didn't join the "winning" faction you were screwed. Prior to the server mergers the only thing that kept the disadvantage factional balance issue in check believe it or not was the Bot population. However, right before the server mergers the Bot Purge happened which destroyed what little economy the disadvantaged faction had left. They literally lost resources that would keep them in contention with the "winning" faction over night.
Now throw in server mergers when the Developing Company did not listen to the player base when it was suggested to balance the factional numbers. As a result of the server mergers this discrepancy got exponentially worse as a result. The game lost 50% of its population over night after server mergers. The game was only played by a specific geographical region in the world which did not include the largest markets such as the U.S. market, EU markets and even to some degree the Asian markets.
The developer realized this and went so far as to lock out the winning faction for new players and they were not allowed to join the winning faction. The developer also gave acceleration boosts to the disadvantaged faction that the winning faction were not privileged to receive. There's an old saying, "Day late and a dollar short." People at the developing company got fired for the server mergers because they basically destroyed the game when they didn't listen to their player base. For those wondering who the Developer was... It was NCSoft a Korean developer.
How many factions did Aion have?
@@BuzzCutPsycho 3 if you count the NPC faction. PVP wasn't just Player vs Player it was Player vs Player vs NPC Faction.
The only thing they did right regarding this and because of the 3rd faction, was that player factions were only allowed to hold fortresses for so long before the NPC faction took over. These fortresses were where you got end game resources and crafting materials.
The problem with the factional imbalance was, numbers, gear, and resources, the disadvantaged player faction could not if ever gain control over the fortresses which put excessive stress on the economy and gear discrepancy to say nothing about the 10:1 ratio player faction numbers issue. The bot population literally supported the economy and gear discrepancy of the disadvantaged faction. So when the bots were purged the disadvantaged faction took a HUGE hit to its economy. And that was compounded even more with NCSoft merging factional imbalanced servers with other factional imbalanced servers.
It was as if as you said, the PVP system was an after thought and the original game was never meant to have 2 player factions but rather 1 player faction vs NPC faction. So a lot of the content one faction had access to the other did not. More specifically during level'ing and gearing up to get to the End Game Fortress materials.
To give you an idea of gear differences in that game: 1 Advantaged player with top end gear, could and did fight 10:1 and 15:1 odds and win. Gear was so important rather or not you survived a fight. In my case in particular, I remember going to the enemy zone to try to get my level 43 weapon. One of those players fought 16 of us at once, killed all of us except 2 or 3 before we finally killed him. That is how much of a gear difference there was between factions. Now add the fact there were 10 of them to every 1 of us. You should be able to understand why so many people quit that game after the server mergers. This point is important regarding content because I was on the disadvantaged faction. We had to PVP and PVE at the same time to get our level 43 weapon, the other player faction got to go into an instanced dungeon and only fight against NPC's to get theirs. So the difficulty difference between the two factions was highly in favor of the advantaged faction.
Every good mmo has factions and fishing
Yes they do
Problem with CIG doing it... making it, again, too gamified. Not natural.
If you're an Outlaw in one system, you really shouldn't be know in another system. Unless you're a huge big shot kingpin.
In other words, you should be able to be aligned with multiple, even opposing factions for many different systems. Unless you become "too big". Which should have benefits in itself.
I can see that. Right now with Pyro being the only other one I'm not too worried about other systems
Its ok factions are at least 5 years away. You have time.
hopefully
CIG will do the exact opposite of what you suggest. Mark my word lol
Likely. But I'm gonna start working on the longer script. It's worth a shot. May be interesting too and should provide a bit more context.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I believe CIG lacks the ability to create a well balanced MMO due to lack of real leadership and vision. Their solution to staying profitable is selling players new ships, everything else is just extra. I believe SC has so much potential If it had better management .
The great thing about SC is that they can do everything. They can have systems with factions, systems without factions, systems with pvp, systems without pvp. So in the end everyone can play in the area that fits their playstyle the most.
It's true! And i think we will get something like that eventually that does fit everyone.
The gameplay at 4:12 looks trash... The AI in a solo game is what should carry it into the 100's of hours and they just stood there. Looking the wrong direction. Then reacted poorly and fell over. After you know the whole story line. After you've unlocked everything. After you have learned the meta builds. The AI should be able to step up to those challenges and give you amazing montages of overcoming the odds or narrow misses but this just feels easy and dry. Instead they reused a frankly terrible difficulty mechanic from previous games where increasing the difficulty just increases hp and damage. So utterly devoid of creativity. Honestly glad I didn't try out Star Citizen. Hope the factions make it better for those who play
yeah that wasnt a good room clear LOL
So much talking about pvp. I hardly see a player in PU
Big space few people
I personally think player ran factions would be awesome. Have like 5 or 6 factions, and then there could be wars between different factions. As far as NPC factions I agree with three cap, and then have the player ran factions
Again my only concern with player run factions is the snowballing.