I bought my first turntable when I was 19 years old (I am 65 now). It was a Thorens TD 160 with an Ortofon element. I still own it. A love affair with vinyl was born. I have a very extensive collection of records and I love to listen to them. I have a very nice Soundsystem and have all the modern gadgets to listen to digital music, SACD, CD, Flac files, streaming services. I have it all. But in my heart I still enjoy listening to vinyl the most. When I listen to my music I am not objective. And I don't care about measurements. To me it's all a matter of emotion. And in that regard vinyl hits me the hardest (in a pleasant way).
Even in our day Thorens was a reference for turntables but it was beyond our reach. But I can still recall the great clarity and fidelity not only from the amps but also from our home built Klipsch design speakers. Those truly were the golden days of HiFi.
@@DrRock2009 , just like smoking, despite all the health warnings on the label, people still take up smoking, because it moves, everything else does not matter.
These talks are brilliant. Mr. Lovegrove is a wonderful teacher explaining complex concepts in simple understandable terms. Also his voice and verbiage makes for easy listening.
An absolutely brilliant, informative, and personally endearing chat. I think you very much for this. And I’m certain, just from listening to you talk, that your audio equipment is absolutely wonderful; I hope I can experience it in person someday. Thank you for a wonderful UA-cam channel. It’s intelligent, artistic and articulate people like you that make this world worthwhile.
I'm guilty of being one of those who launched a long discussion in the comments to episode 2. I don't feel the need to do so this time. Harley, how masterfully you've tackled such a convoluted and complex topic; this video should become the reference point in any future discussion of the subject. Thank you for what is obviously a labour of love and thank you (and the artists) for sharing those recordings for us to enjoy.. ahem.. digitally. 😉😊
I agree absolutely. Harley side-stepped direct comparisons and preferences very well. Results are so system dependent that preferences are irrelevant other than within ones own listening room.
Thank you very much for this video. The contrast should not be between analog versus digital. Is compressed versus uncompressed. To record analog (vinyl, tape, even radio broadcasts) compression is a must. In digital recordings compression is a (bad) side effect: "hey why don't we crank up everything so it sounds LOUDER?". So many audiophiles have become obsessed with frequency response that have forgotten about dynamic range.
The best explanation of dynamic range I've heard and now i understand why we're in the middle of a loudness war. Also, it's so nice to listen to someone sit,talk and explain without there being an edit every ten seconds. Excellent.
Great talk, very much appreciated. i have a reasonable system and have done what I can with my listening room to optimize it. I have a lot of vinyl that I bought 40 or 50 years ago along with those i picked up at yard sales. Most of these recordings were compromised by the quality of the gear used at the time they were pressed but despite the compromises the sound is still glorious to my ears because I can still remember the first time I played some of them when i first got them on my old AR turntable. I have better recordngs of some of these pieces but as good as they are it's just not the same. I also have hundreds of CD's and appreciate the clean sound they offer along with the convenience of not have to get up and flip the record but sometimes if I'm in the mood I'll search through the records to find my vinyl copy of that same production because that's the way I remember it. Some digital recordings (the first digital discs) could be very grating, the mastering wasn't done right. just are not as good as the old analog pressings. And now we have streaming so I can sit for hours and just select anything I want to hear and at my age that can be a blessing. It all comes down to what do i want to hear right now - if you love the music the format it's in just doesn't matter as much.
I do some streaming when, I’m in a lazy mood, when I’m in a very casual mood, when I want to preview a album for possibly purchase. When I’m in my serious mood, I go to my vinyl. You see, I’m 75 and truly a child of vinyl record. I love the process, or the ritual of listening to vinyl ❤️
i do lot of vinyl listening but I have pretty sophisticated dac which let me enjoy music as much as on the vinyl, I mostly listen to digital music recorded in digital domain from my dac, most of the old analog recodings sound better from well mastered vinyl, there are some digitized titles which sound good also but you would have to make sure they are digitized with high quality equipment
I matured as a teen where vinyl was the top music format for consumer listening. I adopted the CD by 1984 and sold off my analog rig and LP's by 1987. The sound revolution of the CD was that impressive and yes CD's if properly mastered were always superior to any vinyl copy I had Fast forward though to 2003 and the internet as well as eBay and online shopping. I just delved into the analog editorials online which led me to renew buying a turntable and begin shopping thrift stores for vast choices of used LP's real cheap. My nostalgia to play records again along with being able to buy lots of used vinyl for cheap got me back into vinyl. I also fell into all the online forums stuff and stopped thinking but became a bit sheep like drinking the growing expanse of analog discussion or Kool aid drinking on line. I began spending more money than I should have buying more expensive turntables, phono cartridges, phono preamps and accessories. Not to forget buying ever more new LP's with increasing prices to near absurdity. I chose by mid 2000's to believe analog was better than CD because I see now of how I just wanted to fit into the vinyl community. Move on to 2020 and taking stock into my now 17 year obsession with analog. I first saw near 1000 LP's cluttering up my a/v room shelves , knowing that I only listened to maybe 40-50-60 of those albums regularly. I saw this was nuts. Then I started to add up all the money I spent on this analog stuff for 17 years and I was shocked and sickened at how much money I had spent. Now I also began a re-engagement of listening to my CD's which I stopped playing except for car audio for near 17 years. I renoticed that my CD's had that explosion of sound out from a dead quiet background noise, had a clarity of fidelity and yes ease of use. No carbon fiber brush cleaning, no stylus cleaning , no record washing machine needed and I refound the peace and peace of mind I had back in the 80' s when I first started in CD playback. 🤔 I began doing listening tests between my CD and LP copies in a/b switching in real time the fidelity. Every repeat every case if I was honest with my ears the CD was better than the LP, especially as the LP gets closer to the inner grooves where fidelity is more compromised. My most memorable example was Fleetwood Mac, Tango in the Night album. My analog copy was pristine and I had a 1987-88 original CD too. Syncing up both in playback and switching between both in real time at first they both sounded pretty good, the LP having more noise floor though, but once the LP got past mid point I noticed the drumming of Mick Fleetwood was becoming duller, less lifelike and as if he was in another room far away from the rest of the band's music, whereas the CD his drumming remained dynamic and lively. This was when I knew my 17 years overspending and infatuation with vinyl was ending. Today all my analog stuff and 1000 LP's are gone and I have zero regret doing so. I deep dived on every aspect of digital recording to know digital is superior and CD or 16/44 is all encompassing for playback. Yes, 24 bit for recording is best as long as it's properly used and mixed down to 16/44 or CD playback. 17 years of sheep like addiction to LP playback only cost me vast sums of money that could have been saved and or enjoyed on other life choices.🤔
Hi Digby, thank you very much for your interesting contribution to the debate. I am pleased you found resolution. I can imagine the expense you incurred. I feel the same when I look back on the money I wasted replacing perfectly good cars every 3-5 years. However, maybe there’s another way to look at it? We only live once, and your expenditure gave you quite some pleasure at the time And, it gave an income to lots of people in the music industry and retailers. Without retail, the whole of the music industry is badly impacted. It’s a crazy system. The world is changing and maybe, one day, CD’s will be recognised for the excellent storage medium they are. And another compensation system will be found for musicians. Especially those who do a great job without the global recognition that superstars attract ? Enjoy the music.
Hi Digby - thanks for sharing your experience which I found extremely interesting and helpful. Like you, I went CD back in 1984 and sold all my LPs. Unlike you I have stayed "digital" to the present day investing in better and better DACs. However, just like you I was wondering whether I should revisit vinyl because of reading so much positive press and online comments. So I invited my helpful dealer to set up a "digital" versus vinyl demo where we compared three top end turntables, cartridges, and phono stages with a top end DAC. I purchased one of the "direct cut" LPs from Chasing the Dragon as mentioned by Harvey in his video and I also purchased the exact same music as a digital download. I fully expected to purchase the turntable based on everything I was reading. But it didn't happen! I just could not tell enough discernible difference to justify the financial investment. Yes the LP sounded fabulous as it is brilliantly engineered, but so did the digital download. If I had to say anything, the LP sounded slightly warmer but the digital sounded "truer"! So I decided to invest in some new speakers instead and stay digital! I think this just goes to show that if properly engineered, digital is at least as good as vinyl contrary to what many audiophiles say. Maybe some LPs do sound better than CDs because of mastering decisions as explained by Harvey. But I do not think it is inherent in the technology. All the best!
@@daveuk1324 Great reply. I did my own LP vs CD comparisons and trying to ignore many years of online anti-cd bias I fell into, it was comparing the numerous LP's and CD's versions that I had. And carefully doing A/B listening which was hard as I had to raise the volume up each time I switched to the LP as they always were less loud. But I was able to get good at doing so and even the LP's I had that were know to have great fidelity, I could not escape that the CD versions always sounded better. The biggest notice was as the cartridge tracked closer to the inner grooves. The LP fidelity always got worse. From 2003 till 2020 when I got back big time into vinyl I drank all the online rhetoric. I just wanted to believe LP sounded better. Finally taking my bias out of it in 2020 changed my mind. I do not regret moving on from vinyl and back to my CD playback ways. Vinyl can be fun but also be costly, time consuming and I just got tired of it all. I deep dived on learning digital audio and playback to not be misinformed as many audiophiles are especially vinyl only ones. So I understand better today the science behind digital audio to the point of knowing if the CD or consumer lossless digital file is mastered to be an exact copy of the master tapes be they analog, digital or be a digital file, ie: no jerking around of the mastering by some ham fisted goof ball or half deaf engineer that the CD or lossy file will sound identical to the master tapes or file. OBTW IMO don't get too caught up in DAC's as they are all engineered to do the same thing. As long as they decode the digital info to an analog wave form properly they are all going to sound pretty much the same. The only real change and minor at that will be the post DAC analog stage. Thanks for your added reply. 😎
Extremely insightful and enlightening observation about your experience. Thank you for sharing it and it will have an influence on the direction I go....
Thank you for making this video. It really is great to be able to find an enthusiast who speaks with such knowledge - particularly as I work in a field where nobody has any common interests. I’d very much welcome the wider availability of different mixes, dependent on what you are playing the music on, in the way you can buy two grades of Dr Martens shoes. Perhaps then we’d see the return of the Hifi shops to town centres? A friend of mine said “can you put [something he’d heard on the radio] on your system.” It sounded terrible - screechy, compressed and auto-tuned to death. He commented “so there really isn’t any point listening to this on a food system?” As a child, our music centre didn’t even allow us to hear the words on most music, so I love feeling closer to that experience when I listen to my old LPs - like getting closer to visiting an old friend. I now buy CDs for new material, mostly because I don’t have a streamer yet. I also spend all day on a computer, so can’t fully detach in their presence
I agree in that both formats have their place. I like your reference of vinyl being a tea ceremony and streaming is a kind of spur of the moment journey. Also, because of part 1, today I have purchased a Rega P2, together with my 17 and 13 year old daughters. We recently all purchased several LPs on our summer holiday and I look forward to all sitting together and listening to the music as this will be our very own tea ceremony. Thank you for such detailed videos explaining the physics behind turntables and performing a little dynamic test in your kitchen, brilliant! Enjoy the music.
Thank you for your very touching comment. Your words inspire me to continue. Enjoy your new turntable, the joy music brings can fill all our lives. It’s lovely to learn you will be sharing it with your daughters. Enjoy the music too!
What a quintessentially British commentary on music appreciation. The tea illustration worked for me. I instantly went home (in snowy and foggy Montana USA ) and made a pot of tea then I put on "Coming in from the cold" by Bob Marley☺️ I always marvel how remarkable vinyl can sound, even though I normally stream these days. That said, the restricted dynamic range and surface noise, wow and flutter are all forgivable on a good day.
Your emotional connection was right on the money. I love handling the LP and reading the jacket.I find it more for filling. I think the difference between digital and analog is like food. Digital is like the individual vegetables and analog is like a stew. It just tastes better, seems to flow smoother. Thank you for a great lesson.
Wonderful video Harley. Indeed yes enjoy the music. I too play Vinyl, CDs and Stream, and totally agree with your comments. Each has it's place and that's what's so wonderful. Streaming allows me to discover or try out new artists, is so convenient and enables me to create my own playlists etc. However, when I'm in another frame of mind, I'll enjoy the whole vinyl experience. With vinyl you definitely have a greater connection to the music - it also, to my ears at least, sounds more 3 dimensional, more "present" somehow. I know digital only fanboys will think that's crazy, but it's what I experience on most recordings. Thanks for the fantastic series.
Thank you Harvey, I enjoyed this talk and glad to see you didn't come down on one side of the debate or the other. My listening is split equally between digital and analogue, and I have no particular preference. However, given that most vinyl has come from a digital source for the last few decades, it would take some stretch of the imagination to believe that quality of the original digital source will somehow improve by taking that digital source to cut the lacquer, then from this stamp the inverse father copies, from each of these stamp the mother copies, from each of these stamp the child copies, and finally from these stamp all the retail copies. Even the so-called one-step recordings require 3 of those steps. There is only one direction in which quality will go. Even recording direct to the lacquer will often mean using a digital cutter to give the variable groove spacing. If someone was to say they prefer listening to analogue, I would not argue with that - I might even agree because as Harvey discusses, there is an emotive connection. However, if someone was to say that analogue is better from an objective point of view, then I would question their judgement given the points made above. I listen to both and so, like Harvey, will happily sit on the fence and enjoy both.
I'm disabled, and on stormy days (and today IS stormy) my limbs ache and feel 100x heavier than normally. This makes my concentration ability severely compromised..... it also makes me a grumpy cuss! But this series (assisted by Tori Amos 'Live In Montreux') has allowed me to be totally calm. BRAVO!
Thanks for your comment. I am so glad that I, and the team who help me make these videos happen, have helped to alleviate some of your physical discomfort! Whoever could have imagined that effect? Keep smiling, H
Awesome video. Fully agree with you. Now when i’m retired and have time I almost only listen to vinyls. As you say, it’s the whole process to play a vinyl. You have the cover, you listen to all songs because it’s not just to jump to the next one and it’s a certain feeling about it. At least for me.
Harley, even my wife who has no interest in audio equipment loves your videos. And I have gone and done it, now I can play my uncle's gift of all his vinyl. Videos are getting better and better, keep up the great work.
The whole controversy ended for me when my friends and i did a test . We recorded a bit of a few favorite records using a nice quality DAC at CD specs, and then did a blind test to see if we could tell the difference between the actual record and the digital copy of it. We couldn’t. Seems mastering is everything. And records, due to their physical characteristics, have a sound to them that it seems record-aficionados like to hear.
I agree completely, I did a comparison using Pink Floyd’s Darkside of the moon, high quality vinyl and master cd, just about no difference between them.
Bang on. I have an audio buddy who has a digital master of a track he finds sibilant and awful. He also has the vinyl which he enjoys. He digitized it and cannot tell the difference either. He ended up doing the same for all his other vinyl and now enjoys his vinyl digitally. I have some knowledge on how so many digital versions end up dire in comparison to vinyl. It really is a lot of bad mastering or re-mastering when this occurs.
What a great explanation you have presented. You make it easy for your viewers to clearly understand the concepts whereas some others that argue analog versus digital seem to show their bias.
As child of the 1960's I grew up on records/ lp's not vinyls and have had cassette, 8 track, CD's and now streaming and I prefer vinyl records. I have subscribed to hi rez streaming services but always unscribe after a short period time. I can't describe the character of the digital sound but I am almost always under whelmed. Now I have to admit I have heard fantastic digital recordings that were able to keep me riveted to my seat, but they are few and far between. Cheers.
I absolutely love, and ADORE Mr Hargrove! The entire DAC experience will n e v e r match the enigmatic, visual allure of spinning mechanisms playing the world’s greatest performances. Our very planet spins on its axis, itself, spinning beautifully around our solar source. The omnidirectional perfection of the circle that surrounds life itself. From the captivating turns of Studer’s reels, and the P10’s platter , to the last MA-R Compact Cassette TDK had, turning in Tandberg’s drop-dead gorgeous TCD-3014a. Analog’s intoxicating intimacy shall perpetually wind in this music lover’s heart to infinity. -thank you
Thank you for this post. My wife & I have is around 550 CD's as well as 450 albums and have our thoughts regarding CD vs digital. We enjoy playing music through a superb system and in the end enjoy the songs the most.
Excellent analysis, I share your reflections and the main thing is to enjoy the music (in digital or analog media). Looking for technicalities and differences that only musicians could appreciate, in my opinion, is only the power of a few people. I thank you and congratulate you for your videos. Greetings from Buenos Aires, Argentina
Listen to the music, Enjoy the music, absloutely. I've been there with all the formats, loved them all. using streaming services is a great way to rediscover old favourites and and also discover new music. wonderful video. thank you.
Perfect Analog/Digital Tea analogy. Id like to add that I downloaded the Aveline Gram sample and played it with Roon. It was truly beautiful, piano WAS in my room. Roon then played Streamline by System Of A Down 😲
Hello Harley, wishing you all the best in 2023. My Gilu CD arrived safely and sounds perfect. A wonderful performance from each member of the group. Special note: based on your review I purchased and have been enjoying my little Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. It sounds delicious good and is a joy to use. Thank you, Brian
I have a personal belief that when we are young and can hear higher frequencies we would play to death our favourite songs / tracks. I believe this sound went deep into our memories so that is what we hark back to. As we grow older we retain that memory but our ears start failing us in old age and cannot reconcile what we hear today with what we heard in our youth. Its just my personal view of why music appreciation changes as we grow older for the songs of our youth.
Your audio assessment expertise, and will to distinguish good from bad, also changes and matures over time. I am old and my hearing is nowhere near as good as it used to be, but I can identify system quality differences better than I ever did in my youth.
I think this is the most balanced talk on analog/digital I have heard to date, thank you Harley. Over the years of listening to music I have come to realize for me the greatest thing to get the best from a recording is how my frame of mind and emotion are. I have lost count of the times I have so thoroughly enjoyed a listening session only to repeat the next day with the same music and equipment and find it sounds thin and uninteresting and I feel edgy and end up switching off. Now I do not force it which means I can sometimes go two weeks without listening to music but when my mood is right and I am at ease in myself and not overthinking things then, I am ready to enjoy and it is regardless of whether I have my full player/tube headphone amp and best headphones or I simple plug in my BOSE in ear N/C earphones to my little Onkyo DAP . If my mood is right then magic happens regardless, heck, even listening to highly compressed through youtube via my modest external €70 computer speakers through my HP in-built sound card can sound wonderful and nurturing if my mood is right. As an aside. I looked on your webstore but only could see an option for CD on the Balmoral recordings, since getting my new laptop last year I no longer have a cd playing option, is it available to download and if so, where? Thanks so much Harley, this has been a wonderful mini series.
Great video and format - from the recent influx of comments I suspect you are about to get big! I have a reasonable Hi-Fi system that I've pieced together in the last 8 months for myself from family leftovers, used purchases, thrift store pickups, and in the case of my Micca speakers, brand new equipment. Now that I'm in my own home and have the space, it's been an absolute joy to get it all set up and experiment with music on various formats that I've been collecting in anticipation for someday having a proper setup to listen to it on. I've got a TEAC turntable from the 90s and 2 CD players hooked up - both Sony units from the 90s/00s. One is a 5 disc changer and the other is a CD/DVD player with optical output. I enjoy both vinyl and CDs but I do prefer CDs for the convenience and nostalgia (that is what I grew up using). I still get the emotive connection you speak of when it comes to physically owning my music and listening on a physical format, but for me I get enough satisfaction from CDs that I don't exclusively buy vinyl. I also prefer the lower cost of CDs and the ease of backing them up to a HQ digital format like FLAC for on the go listening. Many audiophiles would scoff at my secondhand setup, but as you say, I'm certainly enjoying the music and love adding to my collection regardless of format. You may enjoy the writing and interviews of Ted Gioia, a music critic I've come to appreciate recently. Cheers!
Thank you very much for your very kind and thoughtful comment. Let people scoff at your secondhand set up. I had second hand gear for years and years. I purchased My vintage QUAD system decades ago, and it’s still going great. Is it ‘the best’? No! But it’s nice to use and I can still enjoy listening to music through it. Is my car HiFi the best? No, and yet I like listening to music through it! Thanks also for the tip about the reviewer. I will look him up!
Ive gone back to playing my old lp's in the last couple of yrs. I have a Technics sl d2 i bought in 1980 and it still plays like new. When i put the first album on, i realised that i missed the crackles and pops. The sound to my ears is more pure than digital. I enjoy the layed back conversations here. Thank you for the insight.
I downloaded the sample, sounds incredible even through my modest hifi setup! I have a R2R Denafrips Ares II DAC in the chain and I compared the sound to the Node 2i streamer chip based internal DAC and there was almost no difference at all. Usually the Ares II sounds way better to the Node internal DAC, but it seems with very good recordings a better DAC adds incrementally far less to a budget DAC. Great video, very informative and eye opening.
Your 3 part video is a revelation for me. I grew up on vinyl and my first turntable was a Dual (I forget the model but the year was 1970?) and it always, and still, thrills me that a tiny little piece of metal 'scratching' a piece of vinyl can make me cry, meditate, or be at peace. Sadly however, most of my vinyl library was lost to a fire and soon digital music came along and I hopped on it, albeit grudgingly. I have a huge cd library but whenever I switch from the analog source vs cd direct I do, often, rely on the source. Thank you for this musical journey. Happy listening.
So many intense convos back and forth in these comments. People forget music is supposed to be fun or moving. It’s not supposed to be a place to argue. It’s all subjective fun. I love both vinyl and hires. I see the benefits of both. Like many things in life, it’s about what you focus on. People want clear answers when there aren’t always. Let it go. Bring out the passions in other music fans. Don’t use these things as a chance to set the record straight (no pun intended). It’s not about being right, it’s about bringing out a loving passion.
You can combine the different methodes of listening. Streaming when you're outside of want to discover new music right after you've red a review. An vinyl album or cd of your favourite artist when you're at home. The miracle is that this is all posible today.
I don't think there's anyone in the world who explains audio concepts as well as Harley. I've been watching his channel and I feel like I'm being schooled by a master in a classroom at Oxford. Spectacular content, sir, and I hope one day I'm lucky enough to get to hear the Sebellius speakers.
Es ist einfach eine Gefühlssache. Als wir damals zum ersten mal CD hörten, merkte jeder sofort den enormen Unterschied zu LP oder Cassete. Später begannen wir, die Mechanik und das entspannte Drehen des Plattentellers zu vermissen. Danach kam das Streamen und heute kaufen wir schwere CD - Player für 1000de Euros. Und die meisten von uns finden Musik um so "räumlicher", je dicker die Frontplatte des Verstärkers ist - egal was die nüchterenen Fakten belegen oder widerlegen mögen. Der Wein schmeckt halt auch im Urlaub Strand besser als in der Küche zuhause ..
I accept the "different, not better" argument and, in particular, the emotive value of the physical vinyl record. However I do think that the Aveline Gram recording is a perfect example of when/why I prefer digital. I feel I am sitting next to the pianist hearing what she is hearing. Similarly, if listening to choral or organ music, digital helps me immerse myself in the atmosphere of the Cathedral, church or Chapel. In a concert hall I feel I get better spacial awareness as well as the sense of individual instruments. Note I use the term, "I feel"! I accept these are personal reactions. (One tangible advantage, I have 6,000 lossless tracks stored digitally and would need space I just don't have if they were all on vinyl)
Thanks for your comment. I can go along with it, especially from a philosophical point of view. And from a pragmatic one. For example: tomorrow I leave for France to make a recording of a piece of music that has never been recorded before. It’s a recently discovered work of a once famous composer. Even if I wanted to, I would never consider recording it analogue. For a start, I would need to move a very heavy, noisy and complex recording machine. + reels and reels of recording tape. And the result would start to deteriorate, the moment it was made. Whereas, my smell lightweight digital recording device will capture perfectly the signal it receives from the microphones. What I do with it after that. That is the question and I have the freedom to choose from that point on.
I listen to podcasts all day everyday while working and I can say with truth that this is the most pleasant thing I've heard in weeks. Thank you for your passion and sincerity and nostalgic analogy. Absolutely bliss my friend.
Congratulations! This presentation is amazing… by far the best and most fair discussion I’ve ever experienced. I could listen to you for hours … and the way you described how the experience of one form of reproduction probably has a larger impact on our enjoyment than we might imagine.
Interesting story. I agree: choose whatever you like, but even more, listen to the performance you like. Regardless whether it’s on an analog or digital medium. That said, I did a simple experiment (almost 30 years ago). Start with a digital recording cello/piano (Schoeps microphones, Tascam DA-30 recorder). Copy it to analog tape (Teac 35-2B). Copy it back to digital. The copy on tape sounds analog. The last digital copy sounds analog. That’s telling. Conclusion: the analog sound is distortion. And I’ve made several recordings of which people who said they never liked digital recordings, had to admit they sounded great… My personal view is that the recording industry was so happy they could extract more detail and made the sound more brilliant with digital recordings, without the distortion you typically had with record players (most people had a poor one and they do distort a lot), that the norm became over-detailed and over-brilliant. And then suddenly an LP sounds more natural, at least when played back on a decent system. Edit-added: Given fantastic musicians, to me it is the sound you’re after when making the recording and doing the mastering, what makes or breaks the sound. Regardless of the medium.
I know exactly what you are talking about when you describe the physical experience that happens with analogue. I do not feel that physicality the same way when I use digital sources. I wish that I did, because I can get all the digital music that I want for free. I can not explain this- I just accept this!
I have so little time to spare that I cannot spend time in the romance of vinyl. I grew up with vinyl and celebrated the arrival of CDs in 1983 (thats when they became affordable). No longer did we worry about breaking or scratching an LP, CD music sounded so much better and it was so easy to change track or album. I still have my CDs from 1983, Survivor and Police Zenyata Mopndata. I later transition in to digital and like many have an ample library that would never fit in my music room if they were physical media. The other day I tried playing Spandau Ballet LP, and it was good, but soon I started comparing to my Lossless 44k/16b track Cd Rip, and the later one was more punchy and louder. (yes as you said). Have not touched my table in months maybe a year. So, not going back to vinyl, not missing it one bit.
I abandoned vinyl forever a year after CD came out. No more record cleaning, scratches, ticks, pops, static, warps, having to flip the record, etc. It was a revelation to hear the Neptune movement of Holst's Planets NOT be swallowed up by noise. The nuances of sound were more clearly defined than ever.
This is one of the most beautiful formative videos I ever came across. Thanks a million sir, you made me go really emotional. I'm 59 and I know everything you went through in this lesson quite well, I don't need to extend myself, just to thank you again for making my day talking about the wonders of music listening, no matter the way if you got the real passion.
Analogue has always been my preference. I am 77 years old and in India we grew up with vinyl discs, Garrard turntables, Quad amplifiers and speakers which we built ourselves. This was in the late 50's and 60's. Today, I would still love to listen to Pink Floyd and Dire Straits on an Analogue system. Digital has made things simpler but to my mind it does sound a little too synthetic.
@@dkokalanov We never considered ourselves to be privileged in any way. We obtained genuine circuit diagrams and built these amplifiers. It was not only an achievement but part of our educational process. We also had a great electronics market in Bombay from where we bought all the components. Ofcourse, our Father was a great source of inspiration, being a mechanical and electrical engineer.
@@rohintonchothia9821 I didn't mean "privileged" in a matter of finances. Probably "lucky" or "fortunate" would have been a better word. The fact you built the amps yourselves speaks spades about your skills and passion!
Those are some fine sounding names, Garrard and Quad. I still own a Quad 33 pre amp and a Quad 303 power amp. The 303 is not so long ago overhauled with new capacitors. I have no intention at all to do those things away. In combination with my still fine running Thorens turntable (equipped with a modern Ortofon M2 Cartridge) it is still sounding very nice.
Harvey, your uploads are akin to both of those teas. To call this definitive is to diminish it; it is a creative triumph transcending the myriad puny debates on this topic- a stellar union of science and humanity.
All master recordings nowadays are digital. Transforming a high quality digital recording into an analog vinyl recording means nothing but quality degradation. A high quality DAC does a much better job. It is possible that the low dynamic range of vinyl makes people think that it "sounds better".
yes. Folk like compression. They like third harmonic distortion too. Its warm fuzzy and 'big'. Just think of all the folk reveling in the 'accuracy' their analog hi fi while playing a recording of an electric guitar played through a fuzz box made from a microphone dangling in front of an over driven amp and cabinet. FFS!!
Totally agree with the bottom line and that is - have fun. For me though the issue of analog and digital was recently settled in a way that surprised me and and a little bit disappointed me as I figured vinyl advocates were really just used to euphony or a ritual. I have had a digital only system for 30 years. A month ago I almost grudgingly picked up a good turntable, put a solid MC cartridge on it and listened to some of my all-time favorites on vinyl. I have a good DAC, by the way... and I hate farting around with the vinyl "ceremony" implied. So there's nostalgia involved here.... With the turntable I have a whole new level of enjoyment. Realism, soundstage and emotional connection are a revelation. Don't know why and don't care. I am now bothering everyone for their unused records and nearly living at the local record stores. If you don't have a good turntable let me suggest that you buy one or borrow one and listen to your five favorite recordings on vinyl and come back here and tell me that you weren't elated. I thought I really enjoyed Linda Ronstadt's voice but I picked up a couple of records of hers that I was familiar with on CD and streaming and that's what hooked me. - the character of the voice and just the realism were a whole different level on vinyl compared to CD and streamed hi-res digital. I see what people say about digital seeming like cardboard cutouts on a soundstage too. In my opinion you will be impressed by the air and space around each instrument or each recorded soundstage object and the space between them. Just my hastily written .02
Glad I found you, Harley. Fabulous video. On top of it all, you’ve got a great speaking voice. Keep’em coming. Gonna check out Chasing the Dragon Records.
You have brought to my mind great memories of 1957,'62,&1969. Oh and I must remember 1972,'Fiddler on the Roof.' To me Memories are like a 'spot of tea' or beer or coffee. We are so touched by the memories of the music,because of the Music. Totally enjoyed this. I thank you,& thx for the memories.
Digital and Analogue are two distinct formats. Both have their plusses and minuses. One is not better than the other, they are both excellent when correct equipment is used. One is not better from the other, they are inherently different and therefore require equally discerning accompanying equipment. The argument is a misnomer. Thank you for your videos, it is good for discussion to be.
Fabulous presentatiion. I have always prefered anologue over digital and rarely listen to digital without a DAC. Now having said that - I have just finished digitising over 100 cassettes to ensure these are not lost to time. Burnt to CDs these sound way way better than anticipated and over the airwaves - sound fabulous.
Really exciting! Thank you so much for this discussion. All that is missing is the crackling of the flames in the fireplace and no doubt a cup of one of those excellent British teas. Musically yours.
Brilliant stuff. Thoroughly enjoyed it and .. never knew the Rega story. I'll look upon Rega in a whole new light !. Just one technical note ... Even £1k to £2k hand held spl meters struggle to measure below 30 - 35 dB. Up in the land of multi thousand pound (B & K or Gras) £10k - £20k will get you "close" to the "0" dB accepted limit of human hearing, so I'd imagine the app & smartphone combination is actually measuring it's own noise below about 35. If I'm wrong, and their self induced noise is around 20 dB ... let me know. So many of us want noise measuring capability down to 20 (or even less) without massive cost.
Thanks for your very motivating message. Indeed, I am sure you’re probably correct about internal noise of measuring devices, it makes perfect sense. Best wishes from Belgium. Harley
There is still magic in analog. There is just something about it that can still grab my soul. The clicks and pops of vinyl still has some comfort for those of us who can remember a simpler time. But if I am looking for the most perfect sound, I would go to digital. Personally, I record in digital. But many streaming services don't deliver the entire range of notes. For instance, "The Stroke" by Billy Squier. Listen to that on a quality "stereo" via cassette vs. what is on UA-cam. There are LOTS of notes in the lower register toward the end of the song that are not heard on UA-cam. The sad part of that story is that if it were presented in its entirety, the end portions of that song would be AWESOME in digital. Another issue I am experiencing is the dynamic range of the speakers usually used to play streamed music. I can play many digital songs through the speakers I use for live performances and they sound really good but through my little JBL bluetooth speaker they lack a significant portion of the entire range of notes that are played on the song. Everyone I know plays their music through one of those bluetooth speakers or headphones. I have tried my in-ear monitors for streamed music and they sound absolutely horrible. But when I use them on stage, they are some of the best sounding speakers available. I have an old (1920's) Sears tube radio that has an (1) awesome speaker in it. That speaker transfers everything that the radio signal is transmitting. But the digital radio in my car, with high-end speakers, won't deliver the same listening experience. Even when the car is stationary. I think as time and technology progresses, we will get closer and closer to the magic of analog. Maybe digital would be exponentially better than analog if we were able to slice the sound wave millions of times per second? The more times a wave is slices, the closer the sampled "wave" will be to the analog wave. If someone were to figure out how to get a constant wave from digital, they would quickly become very rich.
PCM is sampled at 44,100 per 16 bit. DSD is sampled at 2.8 million + per 1 bit. I have not heard anymusic on DSD yet. So I have no opinion on the quality.
Shannon and Nyquist figured it out a long time ago. The wave going into the digital recorder is exactly the same coming out of it due to their little theorem, you just don't know how it all works.
Thank you for this series. I have been listening to my music exclusively on digital since 1983. I am a simple punter given to overdoing it on the volume knob. So I was so pleased to det rid of the fluff and scratches and palaver just to get the record to play. Then half way, through you have to turn the blessed thing over and start again. Ridiculous. My buddy here is passionate about vinyl. He has a collection numbering into thousands. Indeed, he deals in them in the markets here in Provence. Bottom , have two parts to our music appreciation. The technology and cost bring its own pleasures and frustrations. And the music. Forget the reproduction process, pour a glass of wine (another set of processes and pleasures), and enjoy your chosen music. I believe that is your message and we should all agree with it.
I listened to cassettes recorded from fm for at least a decade after the first portable cd players came along. At the time I was just happy with the format.
At a hifi show a log time a go I heard a live demo comparing a Nakamichi Dragon cassette recorder and it’s recording of a CD,switching between the two, I myself had a Nakamichi , not a dragon though but probably an entry level, but still pretty good, unfortunately the media isn’t @@JohnRussellHodge_progtwit
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. You cleverly avoided answering the actual title of your video... Your conclusion is valid though! If we consider only vinyl v digital then it's a pretty easy question to answer. Make a digital recording of the output of your turntable. Does it sound like vinyl or digital? (I don't think anybody would argue that they do in fact sound different) I've done this and to me it still sounds like vinyl. Indicating to me at least that vinyl is adding something that didn't exist in the original recording. Something nice and warm and euphoric but still a flaw if accurate reproduction of the original recording is the aim.
There's a whole generation out there that have only ever experienced digital and to them the word means "the best" and analogue means "Old fashioned, outdated" and all the other terms associated with a badly looked after LP. And they're not interested in being educated as to what can be achieved in the analogue medium. Thankyou Harley for an informative lecture.
Isn't it the music that matters most for the most of us? (@MrPetermc199: I fully agree!) Excellent explanation of the matter, a pleasure to listen to your remarks. I have always tried to pick the best of both worlds, an early stereo recording from the fifties on a good turntable can supply the same pleasure and excitement as a "hi-res" recording on Qobuz via an excellent streamer. For me music isn't about "either - or", it's about "this and that", or "ambidexterity" as it is known in the corporate world. Bringing together the best of both worlds....
A fascinating video - informative and thought-provoking, with a great metaphor in the cups of tea. Looking forward to exploring more of your material - thank you !
Two words - Blue Train. Recorded in 1958 by John Coltrane. Remastered zillions of times both on digital and vinyl releases. When I play the vinyl I’m there, in 1958, hearing a great Blue Note recording that our parents related to. Or Kind Of Blue, same thing, a timeless vinyl recording that I must have some 7 vinyl versions of. Vinyl is as close to the real thing that there is. You didn’t say that, so I did. But don’t get me wrong, when you want a quick fix, digital is available. 😊
I bumped into the series (parts 1-3) by accident. I am pretty much a nitwit wrt turntables, analog versus digital etc. but DO enjoy music to the fullest. But as I am technically educated (digital electronics) especially part 2 caught my attention completely......how amazingly interesting to learn about the F1 industry contributing to the development of a turntable f.i. ! Really mind blowing. Continuing with part 3, I fully concur with quite a few others....very interesting stories and indeed, I could listen to you for hours as well. In fact, if you were to claim the sun comes up in the north every day......I'd believe you !! Many thanks!
What a lovely comment, thank you. In Flemish we have an expression ‘met de noorderzon vertrekken’ which means to disaster with the northern sun, ie without trace… luckily, I am pretty sure the sun still rises in the East 😃
@5:10, the light bulb turns on and off at 100 times a second. Yes, during the positive half of the 50hz cycle, the light bulb turns on, then during the second negative half of the 50hz, cycle, it turns on once again. That's twice for every 1/50th of a second, or in other words, it is on 100 times a second.
I'm 65 years old, I'm mostly analog, so many good old memories (emotive connection), lucky enough to have a unique and still functional Rega, Grace, Harberth, Meridian 101 (all 1983) that I bought at the time, for peanuts. Now on, I invest my time and money to go see and hear live (orchestra/classic). I love your conclusion, 100% agree. An audio system, a camera, a car, a rocket... the best is an endless discussion. Go with your vibe.
You’re very welcome! Thanks for your kind feedback
Рік тому+3
Good video, as usual. I'm just going to leave some notes here regarding chapter 4. I understand the ritual of the process and even admit some influence, but it's pure illusion and even conditions discernment in an evaluation. The ritual does not make the sound quality better or worse. If you go to a friend's house and he plays music, you evaluate the sound quality without any affection for the hi-fi equipment. No ritual. I'm directly connected to the sound. About the "miracle" once again seems illusory to me, maybe someone will find it more miraculous that a "light" (laser) gives sound. There are people who find the "sound" (radio) coming through the air to the tuner even more fascinating and fantastic. For me it's a bit irrelevant. I use flac file on a computer and dac (not streaming), looking at a screen doesn't affect my sound, for better or worse. Only the sound quality, the sound recording quality directly influences me. My fight😂 is for better sound, the sounds of the studios all seem the same, they don't give us dimension, echo. I'll leave it here too, something that could be in chapter 4 - when I listen (eg The Wall by Pink Floyd) to listen to everything in a row without stopping... it has its value. I'm going to make a suggestion here, and if you've read this far 😁 it's worth looking for, listening to recordings made by Chesky Records and going to the website - the audiophile society - and listening to the new way recordings - there's also something we have to learn there.
Just a great and thoughtful piece. Well paced and nice anecdotes. One request, though - please don't call Dynamic Range "Bandwidth" - we know bandwidth is measured in Hz and represents the frequency response between the low and high 3dB points.
The sound waves coming from my speakers are analog (and always will be) but the source isn't always. My best sounding LPs are all digitally recorded (coincidence? I don't know). I love the sound of clean vinyl, CDs, SACDs and (16 and 24bit) FLAC/ALAC/APE/WAV files and even some MP3s - yes, I said MP3s. I think when the sound is better than you expect it affects you more than just being "background music." My favorite way to playback music is actually analog magnetic tape not designed specifically for audio. A digital 24-96 FLAC file recorded to HiFi STEREO VHS tape (TDK or BASF are best IMO) sound magnificent. Does it lose something in recording? Yes. Does it gain something in recording? Somehow, I believe, yes. VCR = "poor man's reel-to-reel" is the real deal! Play whatever sounds best through your system and into your ears. Thanks for the video(s) Harley.
Back in the late 80s and early 90s I too did a few recordings onto my Stereo Hi-Fi VHS recorder at the (wow, I have not said this in decades, but here comes the flash backs!) SP Mode (Standard Play)! It sounded just as good or even better than my 3-head cassette deck.
I'm a bit of a sucker for watching a diverse selection of UA-cam videos about hifi, and I was looking forward to Pt 3 of this trilogy. I'd say it was the best of all that I've seen, full stop. Just brilliant, thanks to the passion and sincerity conveyed.
In my living room/listening room, the noise floor is 29 db. Measured with a professional meter. This is very low, I think. I have acoustic windows and live in a quiet place when the neighbors dogs aren’t barking :-) The room is also acoustically treated to some extend. Having this quiet room really helps while listening.
The emotive connection is so important. I make coffee at home with beans from my local roaster, ground for each cup I make, use a lever espresso maker and carefully chosen cups. It tastes better than almost all coffee shops 😊. Slow coffee, in which I am intimately involved. Same with my vinyl. It takes time and a bit of expertise, and the sound (or coffee!) is a product of my efforts to some extent. I agree - enjoy the way you want to do it and like it. In the late 7os,I held up the mic from a Bush cassette deck to the wireless to record music onto tapes. I also drank instant coffee! More recently I have been able to move on and find enjoyment 😅.
I bought my first turntable when I was 19 years old (I am 65 now). It was a Thorens TD 160 with an Ortofon element. I still own it. A love affair with vinyl was born. I have a very extensive collection of records and I love to listen to them. I have a very nice Soundsystem and have all the modern gadgets to listen to digital music, SACD, CD, Flac files, streaming services. I have it all. But in my heart I still enjoy listening to vinyl the most. When I listen to my music I am not objective. And I don't care about measurements. To me it's all a matter of emotion. And in that regard vinyl hits me the hardest (in a pleasant way).
Nice comment
Even in our day Thorens was a reference for turntables but it was beyond our reach. But I can still recall the great clarity and fidelity not only from the amps but also from our home built Klipsch design speakers. Those truly were the golden days of HiFi.
I prefer listening to a Gramophone, the one without any electronics.
As Roger Waters puts it: “the only thing that matters about the final product, is: does it move you? Nothing else matters…”
@@DrRock2009 , just like smoking, despite all the health warnings on the label, people still take up smoking, because it moves, everything else does not matter.
That was the coolest and most wholesome take-away message in this debate of analog vs digital that I have ever heard. Thanks for the video!
You’re very welcome Viktor.
These talks are brilliant. Mr. Lovegrove is a wonderful teacher explaining complex concepts in simple understandable terms. Also his voice and verbiage makes for easy listening.
Wow, that’s great to hear. So pleased you enjoy them!
An absolutely brilliant, informative, and personally endearing chat. I think you very much for this. And I’m certain, just from listening to you talk, that your audio equipment is absolutely wonderful; I hope I can experience it in person someday. Thank you for a wonderful UA-cam channel. It’s intelligent, artistic and articulate people like you that make this world worthwhile.
Thank you very much indeed. That’s much appreciated. You would be very welcome!
Well said!!! Just relax & enjoy the music. No matter the format.
I'm guilty of being one of those who launched a long discussion in the comments to episode 2. I don't feel the need to do so this time.
Harley, how masterfully you've tackled such a convoluted and complex topic; this video should become the reference point in any future discussion of the subject.
Thank you for what is obviously a labour of love and thank you (and the artists) for sharing those recordings for us to enjoy.. ahem.. digitally. 😉😊
Thanks Rasheed. You’re very kind
I agree absolutely. Harley side-stepped direct comparisons and preferences very well. Results are so system dependent that preferences are irrelevant other than within ones own listening room.
Thank you very much for this video.
The contrast should not be between analog versus digital. Is compressed versus uncompressed. To record analog (vinyl, tape, even radio broadcasts) compression is a must. In digital recordings compression is a (bad) side effect: "hey why don't we crank up everything so it sounds LOUDER?".
So many audiophiles have become obsessed with frequency response that have forgotten about dynamic range.
Hi Pablo, you make a great point here. Thanks
The best explanation of dynamic range I've heard and now i understand why we're in the middle of a loudness war. Also, it's so nice to listen to someone sit,talk and explain without there being an edit every ten seconds. Excellent.
Great talk, very much appreciated. i have a reasonable system and have done what I can with my listening room to optimize it. I have a lot of vinyl that I bought 40 or 50 years ago along with those i picked up at yard sales. Most of these recordings were compromised by the quality of the gear used at the time they were pressed but despite the compromises the sound is still glorious to my ears because I can still remember the first time I played some of them when i first got them on my old AR turntable. I have better recordngs of some of these pieces but as good as they are it's just not the same.
I also have hundreds of CD's and appreciate the clean sound they offer along with the convenience of not have to get up and flip the record but sometimes if I'm in the mood I'll search through the records to find my vinyl copy of that same production because that's the way I remember it. Some digital recordings (the first digital discs) could be very grating, the mastering wasn't done right. just are not as good as the old analog pressings.
And now we have streaming so I can sit for hours and just select anything I want to hear and at my age that can be a blessing. It all comes down to what do i want to hear right now - if you love the music the format it's in just doesn't matter as much.
Thanks for your comment!
Love your conclusion. Just enjoy it no matter the media or source.
Thanks!
I do some streaming when, I’m in a lazy mood, when I’m in a very casual mood, when I want to preview a album for possibly purchase. When I’m in my serious mood, I go to my vinyl. You see, I’m 75 and truly a child of vinyl record. I love the process, or the ritual of listening to vinyl ❤️
i do lot of vinyl listening but I have pretty sophisticated dac which let me enjoy music as much as on the vinyl, I mostly listen to digital music recorded in digital domain from my dac, most of the old analog recodings sound better from well mastered vinyl, there are some digitized titles which sound good also but you would have to make sure they are digitized with high quality equipment
I matured as a teen where vinyl was the top music format for consumer listening. I adopted the CD by 1984 and sold off my analog rig and LP's by 1987.
The sound revolution of the CD was that impressive and yes CD's if properly mastered were always superior to any vinyl copy I had
Fast forward though to 2003 and the internet as well as eBay and online shopping. I just delved into the analog editorials online which led me to renew buying a turntable and begin shopping thrift stores for vast choices of used LP's real cheap.
My nostalgia to play records again along with being able to buy lots of used vinyl for cheap got me back into vinyl.
I also fell into all the online forums stuff and stopped thinking but became a bit sheep like drinking the growing expanse of analog discussion or Kool aid drinking on line.
I began spending more money than I should have buying more expensive turntables, phono cartridges, phono preamps and accessories. Not to forget buying ever more new LP's with increasing prices to near absurdity.
I chose by mid 2000's to believe analog was better than CD because I see now of how I just wanted to fit into the vinyl community.
Move on to 2020 and taking stock into my now 17 year obsession with analog. I first saw near 1000 LP's cluttering up my a/v room shelves , knowing that I only listened to maybe 40-50-60 of those albums regularly. I saw this was nuts.
Then I started to add up all the money I spent on this analog stuff for 17 years and I was shocked and sickened at how much money I had spent.
Now I also began a re-engagement of listening to my CD's which I stopped playing except for car audio for near 17 years. I renoticed that my CD's had that explosion of sound out from a dead quiet background noise, had a clarity of fidelity and yes ease of use. No carbon fiber brush cleaning, no stylus cleaning , no record washing machine needed and I refound the peace and peace of mind I had back in the 80' s when I first started in CD playback.
🤔 I began doing listening tests between my CD and LP copies in a/b switching in real time the fidelity. Every repeat every case if I was honest with my ears the CD was better than the LP, especially as the LP gets closer to the inner grooves where fidelity is more compromised.
My most memorable example was Fleetwood Mac, Tango in the Night album. My analog copy was pristine and I had a 1987-88 original CD too.
Syncing up both in playback and switching between both in real time at first they both sounded pretty good, the LP having more noise floor though, but once the LP got past mid point I noticed the drumming of Mick Fleetwood was becoming duller, less lifelike and as if he was in another room far away from the rest of the band's music, whereas the CD his drumming remained dynamic and lively. This was when I knew my 17 years overspending and infatuation with vinyl was ending.
Today all my analog stuff and 1000 LP's are gone and I have zero regret doing so.
I deep dived on every aspect of digital recording to know digital is superior and CD or 16/44 is all encompassing for playback. Yes, 24 bit for recording is best as long as it's properly used and mixed down to 16/44 or CD playback.
17 years of sheep like addiction to LP playback only cost me vast sums of money that could have been saved and or enjoyed on other life choices.🤔
Hi Digby, thank you very much for your interesting contribution to the debate. I am pleased you found resolution. I can imagine the expense you incurred. I feel the same when I look back on the money I wasted replacing perfectly good cars every 3-5 years. However, maybe there’s another way to look at it?
We only live once, and your expenditure gave you quite some pleasure at the time And, it gave an income to lots of people in the music industry and retailers. Without retail, the whole of the music industry is badly impacted. It’s a crazy system. The world is changing and maybe, one day, CD’s will be recognised for the excellent storage medium they are. And another compensation system will be found for musicians. Especially those who do a great job without the global recognition that superstars attract ? Enjoy the music.
Hi Digby - thanks for sharing your experience which I found extremely interesting and helpful. Like you, I went CD back in 1984 and sold all my LPs. Unlike you I have stayed "digital" to the present day investing in better and better DACs. However, just like you I was wondering whether I should revisit vinyl because of reading so much positive press and online comments. So I invited my helpful dealer to set up a "digital" versus vinyl demo where we compared three top end turntables, cartridges, and phono stages with a top end DAC. I purchased one of the "direct cut" LPs from Chasing the Dragon as mentioned by Harvey in his video and I also purchased the exact same music as a digital download. I fully expected to purchase the turntable based on everything I was reading. But it didn't happen! I just could not tell enough discernible difference to justify the financial investment. Yes the LP sounded fabulous as it is brilliantly engineered, but so did the digital download. If I had to say anything, the LP sounded slightly warmer but the digital sounded "truer"! So I decided to invest in some new speakers instead and stay digital! I think this just goes to show that if properly engineered, digital is at least as good as vinyl contrary to what many audiophiles say. Maybe some LPs do sound better than CDs because of mastering decisions as explained by Harvey. But I do not think it is inherent in the technology. All the best!
@@daveuk1324
Great reply.
I did my own LP vs CD comparisons and trying to ignore many years of online anti-cd bias I fell into, it was comparing the numerous LP's and CD's versions that I had. And carefully doing A/B listening which was hard as I had to raise the volume up each time I switched to the LP as they always were less loud. But I was able to get good at doing so and even the LP's I had that were know to have great fidelity, I could not escape that the CD versions always sounded better. The biggest notice was as the cartridge tracked closer to the inner grooves. The LP fidelity always got worse.
From 2003 till 2020 when I got back big time into vinyl I drank all the online rhetoric. I just wanted to believe LP sounded better. Finally taking my bias out of it in 2020 changed my mind.
I do not regret moving on from vinyl and back to my CD playback ways. Vinyl can be fun but also be costly, time consuming and I just got tired of it all.
I deep dived on learning digital audio and playback to not be misinformed as many audiophiles are especially vinyl only ones. So I understand better today the science behind digital audio to the point of knowing if the CD or consumer lossless digital file is mastered to be an exact copy of the master tapes be they analog, digital or be a digital file, ie: no jerking around of the mastering by some ham fisted goof ball or half deaf engineer that the CD or lossy file will sound identical to the master tapes or file.
OBTW IMO don't get too caught up in DAC's as they are all engineered to do the same thing. As long as they decode the digital info to an analog wave form properly they are all going to sound pretty much the same. The only real change and minor at that will be the post DAC analog stage.
Thanks for your added reply.
😎
Extremely insightful and enlightening observation about your experience. Thank you for sharing it and it will have an influence on the direction I go....
Excellent comment!
Wonderful, wonderful orator. Thanks for sharing your wisdom !
My pleasure!
Thank you for making this video. It really is great to be able to find an enthusiast who speaks with such knowledge - particularly as I work in a field where nobody has any common interests.
I’d very much welcome the wider availability of different mixes, dependent on what you are playing the music on, in the way you can buy two grades of Dr Martens shoes. Perhaps then we’d see the return of the Hifi shops to town centres? A friend of mine said “can you put [something he’d heard on the radio] on your system.” It sounded terrible - screechy, compressed and auto-tuned to death. He commented “so there really isn’t any point listening to this on a food system?”
As a child, our music centre didn’t even allow us to hear the words on most music, so I love feeling closer to that experience when I listen to my old LPs - like getting closer to visiting an old friend.
I now buy CDs for new material, mostly because I don’t have a streamer yet. I also spend all day on a computer, so can’t fully detach in their presence
Thanks Peter. Glad you enjoyed it
I agree in that both formats have their place. I like your reference of vinyl being a tea ceremony and streaming is a kind of spur of the moment journey.
Also, because of part 1, today I have purchased a Rega P2, together with my 17 and 13 year old daughters. We recently all purchased several LPs on our summer holiday and I look forward to all sitting together and listening to the music as this will be our very own tea ceremony.
Thank you for such detailed videos explaining the physics behind turntables and performing a little dynamic test in your kitchen, brilliant!
Enjoy the music.
Thank you for your very touching comment. Your words inspire me to continue. Enjoy your new turntable, the joy music brings can fill all our lives. It’s lovely to learn you will be sharing it with your daughters. Enjoy the music too!
What a quintessentially British commentary on music appreciation.
The tea illustration worked for me. I instantly went home (in snowy and foggy Montana USA ) and made a pot of tea then I put on "Coming in from the cold" by Bob Marley☺️
I always marvel how remarkable vinyl can sound, even though I normally stream these days.
That said, the restricted dynamic range and surface noise, wow and flutter are all forgivable on a good day.
Lovely comment 🙏
Your emotional connection was right on the money. I love handling the LP and reading the jacket.I find it more for filling. I think the difference between digital and analog is like food. Digital is like the individual vegetables and analog is like a stew. It just tastes better, seems to flow smoother. Thank you for a great lesson.
You’re very welcome 🙏
Wonderful video Harley. Indeed yes enjoy the music. I too play Vinyl, CDs and Stream, and totally agree with your comments. Each has it's place and that's what's so wonderful. Streaming allows me to discover or try out new artists, is so convenient and enables me to create my own playlists etc. However, when I'm in another frame of mind, I'll enjoy the whole vinyl experience. With vinyl you definitely have a greater connection to the music - it also, to my ears at least, sounds more 3 dimensional, more "present" somehow. I know digital only fanboys will think that's crazy, but it's what I experience on most recordings. Thanks for the fantastic series.
Thank you for your very kind words. I am completely aligned with you. Best wishes. H
A wonderful conclusion to the 3 part series. I really enjoyed it (and learned a lot), thank you so much for doing this.
My pleasure! Thanks for taking the time to share your appreciation
The reason I sold all my vinyl and bought cd was the static, the noise, the dust, the scratching, but I miss the fantastic cover designs.
Oh, I can concur with your statement. Especially for quiet classical music!
It's true what you said....Most importantly how to handle the dynamics while recording and playback is the master key....
Thank you Harvey, I enjoyed this talk and glad to see you didn't come down on one side of the debate or the other. My listening is split equally between digital and analogue, and I have no particular preference. However, given that most vinyl has come from a digital source for the last few decades, it would take some stretch of the imagination to believe that quality of the original digital source will somehow improve by taking that digital source to cut the lacquer, then from this stamp the inverse father copies, from each of these stamp the mother copies, from each of these stamp the child copies, and finally from these stamp all the retail copies. Even the so-called one-step recordings require 3 of those steps. There is only one direction in which quality will go. Even recording direct to the lacquer will often mean using a digital cutter to give the variable groove spacing. If someone was to say they prefer listening to analogue, I would not argue with that - I might even agree because as Harvey discusses, there is an emotive connection. However, if someone was to say that analogue is better from an objective point of view, then I would question their judgement given the points made above. I listen to both and so, like Harvey, will happily sit on the fence and enjoy both.
Lovely, well considered comment. Thank you
I still play my Sheffield Labs direct to disc LPs from many years ago and they still sound great.
Good to hear!
I'm disabled, and on stormy days (and today IS stormy) my limbs ache and feel 100x heavier than normally. This makes my concentration ability severely compromised..... it also makes me a grumpy cuss! But this series (assisted by Tori Amos 'Live In Montreux') has allowed me to be totally calm. BRAVO!
Thanks for your comment. I am so glad that I, and the team who help me make these videos happen, have helped to alleviate some of your physical discomfort! Whoever could have imagined that effect? Keep smiling, H
In over half a century very little had any effect on my grumpiness. But your videos do. You should be very proud. 😜
Excellent wrap up at the end. I do feel amazed and privileged when I realize I am transported sonically to a live event from decades ago.
Thanks! Me too!
Awesome video. Fully agree with you. Now when i’m retired and have time I almost only listen to vinyls. As you say, it’s the whole process to play a vinyl. You have the cover, you listen to all songs because it’s not just to jump to the next one and it’s a certain feeling about it. At least for me.
Thank you. So glad you liked it.
Harley, even my wife who has no interest in audio equipment loves your videos. And I have gone and done it, now I can play my uncle's gift of all his vinyl. Videos are getting better and better, keep up the great work.
Thanks! You are very kind
The whole controversy ended for me when my friends and i did a test . We recorded a bit of a few favorite records using a nice quality DAC at CD specs, and then did a blind test to see if we could tell the difference between the actual record and the digital copy of it. We couldn’t. Seems mastering is everything. And records, due to their physical characteristics, have a sound to them that it seems record-aficionados like to hear.
Thanks Chris.
I agree completely, I did a comparison using Pink Floyd’s Darkside of the moon, high quality vinyl and master cd, just about no difference between them.
Bang on. I have an audio buddy who has a digital master of a track he finds sibilant and awful. He also has the vinyl which he enjoys. He digitized it and cannot tell the difference either. He ended up doing the same for all his other vinyl and now enjoys his vinyl digitally. I have some knowledge on how so many digital versions end up dire in comparison to vinyl. It really is a lot of bad mastering or re-mastering when this occurs.
What a great explanation you have presented. You make it easy for your viewers to clearly understand the concepts whereas some others that argue analog versus digital seem to show their bias.
Thanks
As child of the 1960's I grew up on records/ lp's not vinyls and have had cassette, 8 track, CD's and now streaming and I prefer vinyl records. I have subscribed to hi rez streaming services but always unscribe after a short period time. I can't describe the character of the digital sound but I am almost always under whelmed. Now I have to admit I have heard fantastic digital recordings that were able to keep me riveted to my seat, but they are few and far between. Cheers.
Another really excellent video. This is the most thoughtful and heart felt analog vs digital discussion I’ve ever heard.
Thank you!
I absolutely love, and ADORE Mr Hargrove!
The entire DAC experience will
n e v e r
match the enigmatic, visual allure of spinning mechanisms playing the world’s greatest performances. Our very planet spins on its axis, itself, spinning beautifully around our solar source. The omnidirectional perfection of the circle that surrounds life itself. From the captivating turns of Studer’s reels, and the P10’s platter , to the last MA-R Compact Cassette TDK had, turning in Tandberg’s drop-dead gorgeous TCD-3014a. Analog’s intoxicating intimacy shall perpetually wind in this music lover’s heart to infinity.
-thank you
Thanks! 😉
Thank you for this post. My wife & I have is around 550 CD's as well as 450 albums and have our thoughts regarding CD vs digital. We enjoy playing music through a superb system and in the end enjoy the songs the most.
Thanks for sharing! You’re very welcome
Excellent analysis, I share your reflections and the main thing is to enjoy the music (in digital or analog media).
Looking for technicalities and differences that only musicians could appreciate, in my opinion, is only the power of a few people.
I thank you and congratulate you for your videos.
Greetings from Buenos Aires,
Argentina
Thank you Roberto. Best wishes from Belgium 🇧🇪
Listen to the music, Enjoy the music, absloutely. I've been there with all the formats, loved them all. using streaming services is a great way to rediscover old favourites and and also discover new music. wonderful video. thank you.
You’re welcome Bill!
Perfect Analog/Digital Tea analogy. Id like to add that I downloaded the Aveline Gram sample and played it with Roon. It was truly beautiful, piano WAS in my room. Roon then played Streamline by System Of A Down 😲
Thanks 🙏
Hello Harley, wishing you all the best in 2023.
My Gilu CD arrived safely and sounds perfect. A wonderful performance from each member of the group.
Special note: based on your review I purchased and have been enjoying my little Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. It sounds delicious good and is a joy to use.
Thank you,
Brian
Thank you Brian, your very kind. Glad you enjoyed the CD. I will pass your appreciation on to the musicians. Happy New Year to you too
I have a personal belief that when we are young and can hear higher frequencies we would play to death our favourite songs / tracks. I believe this sound went deep into our memories so that is what we hark back to. As we grow older we retain that memory but our ears start failing us in old age and cannot reconcile what we hear today with what we heard in our youth.
Its just my personal view of why music appreciation changes as we grow older for the songs of our youth.
Your audio assessment expertise, and will to distinguish good from bad, also changes and matures over time. I am old and my hearing is nowhere near as good as it used to be, but I can identify system quality differences better than I ever did in my youth.
I can her up to 15khz my kids can here 16.5khz you can play test frequencies and see how far your hearing will go
I think this is the most balanced talk on analog/digital I have heard to date, thank you Harley. Over the years of listening to music I have come to realize for me the greatest thing to get the best from a recording is how my frame of mind and emotion are.
I have lost count of the times I have so thoroughly enjoyed a listening session only to repeat the next day with the same music and equipment and find it sounds thin and uninteresting and I feel edgy and end up switching off.
Now I do not force it which means I can sometimes go two weeks without listening to music but when my mood is right and I am at ease in myself and not overthinking things then, I am ready to enjoy and it is regardless of whether I have my full player/tube headphone amp and best headphones or I simple plug in my BOSE in ear N/C earphones to my little Onkyo DAP . If my mood is right then magic happens regardless, heck, even listening to highly compressed through youtube via my modest external €70 computer speakers through my HP in-built sound card can sound wonderful and nurturing if my mood is right.
As an aside. I looked on your webstore but only could see an option for CD on the Balmoral recordings, since getting my new laptop last year I no longer have a cd playing option, is it available to download and if so, where? Thanks so much Harley, this has been a wonderful mini series.
Hi Ian. Thanks for your comment. ‘Yes’ the recording will be available to download as of next week. 17 January
@@PearlAcoustics wonderful, thank you!
Great video and format - from the recent influx of comments I suspect you are about to get big! I have a reasonable Hi-Fi system that I've pieced together in the last 8 months for myself from family leftovers, used purchases, thrift store pickups, and in the case of my Micca speakers, brand new equipment. Now that I'm in my own home and have the space, it's been an absolute joy to get it all set up and experiment with music on various formats that I've been collecting in anticipation for someday having a proper setup to listen to it on.
I've got a TEAC turntable from the 90s and 2 CD players hooked up - both Sony units from the 90s/00s. One is a 5 disc changer and the other is a CD/DVD player with optical output. I enjoy both vinyl and CDs but I do prefer CDs for the convenience and nostalgia (that is what I grew up using). I still get the emotive connection you speak of when it comes to physically owning my music and listening on a physical format, but for me I get enough satisfaction from CDs that I don't exclusively buy vinyl. I also prefer the lower cost of CDs and the ease of backing them up to a HQ digital format like FLAC for on the go listening. Many audiophiles would scoff at my secondhand setup, but as you say, I'm certainly enjoying the music and love adding to my collection regardless of format.
You may enjoy the writing and interviews of Ted Gioia, a music critic I've come to appreciate recently. Cheers!
Thank you very much for your very kind and thoughtful comment. Let people scoff at your secondhand set up. I had second hand gear for years and years. I purchased My vintage QUAD system decades ago, and it’s still going great. Is it ‘the best’? No! But it’s nice to use and I can still enjoy listening to music through it. Is my car HiFi the best? No, and yet I like listening to music through it! Thanks also for the tip about the reviewer. I will look him up!
Harley Lovegrove, you and your channel are a treasure for audiophiles and music lovers alike. Thank you.
🙏 you’re very welcome
Personaly this question never arised. Both are good enough to make listening to music a pleasure.
Absolutely!
Ive gone back to playing my old lp's in the last couple of yrs. I have a Technics sl d2 i bought in 1980 and it still plays like new. When i put the first album on, i realised that i missed the crackles and pops. The sound to my ears is more pure than digital. I enjoy the layed back conversations here. Thank you for the insight.
I downloaded the sample, sounds incredible even through my modest hifi setup! I have a R2R Denafrips Ares II DAC in the chain and I compared the sound to the Node 2i streamer chip based internal DAC and there was almost no difference at all. Usually the Ares II sounds way better to the Node internal DAC, but it seems with very good recordings a better DAC adds incrementally far less to a budget DAC. Great video, very informative and eye opening.
So glad you liked it.
Your 3 part video is a revelation for me. I grew up on vinyl and my first turntable was a Dual (I forget the model but the year was 1970?) and it always, and still, thrills me that a tiny little piece of metal 'scratching' a piece of vinyl can make me cry, meditate, or be at peace. Sadly however, most of my vinyl library was lost to a fire and soon digital music came along and I hopped on it, albeit grudgingly. I have a huge cd library but whenever I switch from the analog source vs cd direct I do, often, rely on the source. Thank you for this musical journey. Happy listening.
Thank you for watching! Thank you for your kind appreciation and for sharing your story. Best wishes!
So many intense convos back and forth in these comments. People forget music is supposed to be fun or moving. It’s not supposed to be a place to argue. It’s all subjective fun. I love both vinyl and hires. I see the benefits of both. Like many things in life, it’s about what you focus on. People want clear answers when there aren’t always. Let it go. Bring out the passions in other music fans. Don’t use these things as a chance to set the record straight (no pun intended). It’s not about being right, it’s about bringing out a loving passion.
Absolutely! I couldn’t agree more. The best system is the one you are enjoying listening to music on!
You can combine the different methodes of listening. Streaming when you're outside of want to discover new music right after you've red a review. An vinyl album or cd of your favourite artist when you're at home. The miracle is that this is all posible today.
Indeed!
I just came across your channel and I think your commentary style is great . Very relaxed and unhurried ! .. don’t change the format !
Thank you, you’re very kind
I don't think there's anyone in the world who explains audio concepts as well as Harley. I've been watching his channel and I feel like I'm being schooled by a master in a classroom at Oxford. Spectacular content, sir, and I hope one day I'm lucky enough to get to hear the Sebellius speakers.
Wow, thanks!
Es ist einfach eine Gefühlssache.
Als wir damals zum ersten mal CD hörten, merkte jeder sofort den enormen Unterschied zu LP oder Cassete.
Später begannen wir, die Mechanik und das entspannte Drehen des Plattentellers zu vermissen.
Danach kam das Streamen und heute kaufen wir schwere CD - Player für 1000de Euros.
Und die meisten von uns finden Musik um so "räumlicher", je dicker die Frontplatte des Verstärkers ist - egal was die nüchterenen Fakten belegen oder widerlegen mögen.
Der Wein schmeckt halt auch im Urlaub Strand besser als in der Küche zuhause ..
Thanks for your insightful comment and contribution to the topic.
There you go. Enjoy what you have. Not much else matters.
And you're so right. We're privileged just to be here in this time.
🙏
I accept the "different, not better" argument and, in particular, the emotive value of the physical vinyl record.
However I do think that the Aveline Gram recording is a perfect example of when/why I prefer digital. I feel I am sitting next to the pianist hearing what she is hearing.
Similarly, if listening to choral or organ music, digital helps me immerse myself in the atmosphere of the Cathedral, church or Chapel.
In a concert hall I feel I get better spacial awareness as well as the sense of individual instruments.
Note I use the term, "I feel"! I accept these are personal reactions.
(One tangible advantage, I have 6,000 lossless tracks stored digitally and would need space I just don't have if they were all on vinyl)
Thanks for your comment. I can go along with it, especially from a philosophical point of view. And from a pragmatic one. For example: tomorrow I leave for France to make a recording of a piece of music that has never been recorded before. It’s a recently discovered work of a once famous composer. Even if I wanted to, I would never consider recording it analogue. For a start, I would need to move a very heavy, noisy and complex recording machine. + reels and reels of recording tape. And the result would start to deteriorate, the moment it was made. Whereas, my smell lightweight digital recording device will capture perfectly the signal it receives from the microphones. What I do with it after that. That is the question and I have the freedom to choose from that point on.
I listen to podcasts all day everyday while working and I can say with truth that this is the most pleasant thing I've heard in weeks. Thank you for your passion and sincerity and nostalgic analogy. Absolutely bliss my friend.
Thanks
This is just a superb video. Great information, well explained, good pace. Just marvelous. Thanks!
Thank you, that’s very kind indeed. Thanks for taking the time to share your appreciation
Congratulations! This presentation is amazing… by far the best and most fair discussion I’ve ever experienced. I could listen to you for hours … and the way you described how the experience of one form of reproduction probably has a larger impact on our enjoyment than we might imagine.
Wow, thank you! That’s very kind.
Interesting story. I agree: choose whatever you like, but even more, listen to the performance you like. Regardless whether it’s on an analog or digital medium.
That said, I did a simple experiment (almost 30 years ago). Start with a digital recording cello/piano (Schoeps microphones, Tascam DA-30 recorder). Copy it to analog tape (Teac 35-2B). Copy it back to digital. The copy on tape sounds analog. The last digital copy sounds analog.
That’s telling. Conclusion: the analog sound is distortion. And I’ve made several recordings of which people who said they never liked digital recordings, had to admit they sounded great…
My personal view is that the recording industry was so happy they could extract more detail and made the sound more brilliant with digital recordings, without the distortion you typically had with record players (most people had a poor one and they do distort a lot), that the norm became over-detailed and over-brilliant. And then suddenly an LP sounds more natural, at least when played back on a decent system.
Edit-added:
Given fantastic musicians,
to me it is the sound you’re after when making the recording and doing the mastering, what makes or breaks the sound. Regardless of the medium.
Thanks for your comment and contribution to the discussion
I know exactly what you are talking about when you describe the physical experience that happens with analogue. I do not feel that physicality the same way when I use digital sources. I wish that I did, because I can get all the digital music that I want for free. I can not explain this- I just accept this!
I have so little time to spare that I cannot spend time in the romance of vinyl. I grew up with vinyl and celebrated the arrival of CDs in 1983 (thats when they became affordable). No longer did we worry about breaking or scratching an LP, CD music sounded so much better and it was so easy to change track or album. I still have my CDs from 1983, Survivor and Police Zenyata Mopndata. I later transition in to digital and like many have an ample library that would never fit in my music room if they were physical media. The other day I tried playing Spandau Ballet LP, and it was good, but soon I started comparing to my Lossless 44k/16b track Cd Rip, and the later one was more punchy and louder. (yes as you said). Have not touched my table in months maybe a year. So, not going back to vinyl, not missing it one bit.
Thanks for your comment and your contribution to the topic
I abandoned vinyl forever a year after CD came out. No more record cleaning, scratches, ticks, pops, static, warps, having to flip the record, etc. It was a revelation to hear the Neptune movement of Holst's Planets NOT be swallowed up by noise. The nuances of sound were more clearly defined than ever.
This is one of the most beautiful formative videos I ever came across. Thanks a million sir, you made me go really emotional. I'm 59 and I know everything you went through in this lesson quite well, I don't need to extend myself, just to thank you again for making my day talking about the wonders of music listening, no matter the way if you got the real passion.
Thank you very much indeed for your very kind comment. It means a lot to know how much your appreciated it. Enjoy the music!
@@PearlAcoustics I definitely will. 😄
Analogue has always been my preference. I am 77 years old and in India we grew up with vinyl discs, Garrard turntables, Quad amplifiers and speakers which we built ourselves. This was in the late 50's and 60's. Today, I would still love to listen to Pink Floyd and Dire Straits on an Analogue system. Digital has made things simpler but to my mind it does sound a little too synthetic.
Thanks for you comment and contribution to the topic. Greetings from Belgium
Wow! It seems you are part of a very rare and privileged part of Indian society. Great to hear there was such culture there even back then!
@@dkokalanov
We never considered ourselves to be privileged in any way. We obtained genuine circuit diagrams and built these amplifiers. It was not only an achievement but part of our educational process. We also had a great electronics market in Bombay from where we bought all the components. Ofcourse, our Father was a great source of inspiration, being a mechanical and electrical engineer.
@@rohintonchothia9821 I didn't mean "privileged" in a matter of finances. Probably "lucky" or "fortunate" would have been a better word. The fact you built the amps yourselves speaks spades about your skills and passion!
Those are some fine sounding names, Garrard and Quad. I still own a Quad 33 pre amp and a Quad 303 power amp. The 303 is not so long ago overhauled with new capacitors. I have no intention at all to do those things away. In combination with my still fine running Thorens turntable (equipped with a modern Ortofon M2 Cartridge) it is still sounding very nice.
Harvey, your uploads are akin to both of those teas. To call this definitive is to diminish it; it is a creative triumph transcending the myriad puny debates on this topic- a stellar union of science and humanity.
Why thank you very much. You’re very kind. Glad you enjoyed it
All master recordings nowadays are digital. Transforming a high quality digital recording into an analog vinyl recording means nothing but quality degradation. A high quality DAC does a much better job. It is possible that the low dynamic range of vinyl makes people think that it "sounds better".
yes. Folk like compression. They like third harmonic distortion too. Its warm fuzzy and 'big'. Just think of all the folk reveling in the 'accuracy' their analog hi fi while playing a recording of an electric guitar played through a fuzz box made from a microphone dangling in front of an over driven amp and cabinet. FFS!!
Dunno why I've landed on this video, but for once I see someone with common sense and very nice ways of explaining it... Subscribed.
🙏 welcome to my channel
Totally agree with the bottom line and that is - have fun. For me though the issue of analog and digital was recently settled in a way that surprised me and and a little bit disappointed me as I figured vinyl advocates were really just used to euphony or a ritual.
I have had a digital only system for 30 years. A month ago I almost grudgingly picked up a good turntable, put a solid MC cartridge on it and listened to some of my all-time favorites on vinyl. I have a good DAC, by the way... and I hate farting around with the vinyl "ceremony" implied. So there's nostalgia involved here.... With the turntable I have a whole new level of enjoyment. Realism, soundstage and emotional connection are a revelation. Don't know why and don't care. I am now bothering everyone for their unused records and nearly living at the local record stores. If you don't have a good turntable let me suggest that you buy one or borrow one and listen to your five favorite recordings on vinyl and come back here and tell me that you weren't elated. I thought I really enjoyed Linda Ronstadt's voice but I picked up a couple of records of hers that I was familiar with on CD and streaming and that's what hooked me. - the character of the voice and just the realism were a whole different level on vinyl compared to CD and streamed hi-res digital. I see what people say about digital seeming like cardboard cutouts on a soundstage too. In my opinion you will be impressed by the air and space around each instrument or each recorded soundstage object and the space between them. Just my hastily written .02
Thanks for your comment
Very true about streaming, my music flavours and genre has expanded so much since the birth of online music choice.
Thank you so much for this learning experience superb work
It's my pleasure, you’re very welcome
Garland: Trio Gilu - I am delighted with the music, performance and great recording; thank you for a great pleasure of listening to this album!
Oh that’s wonderful to hear. I will let Veronique, Mathilde and Maria know.
Glad I found you, Harley. Fabulous video. On top of it all, you’ve got a great speaking voice. Keep’em coming. Gonna check out Chasing the Dragon Records.
Thanks Matthew, much appreciated
You have brought to my mind great memories of 1957,'62,&1969. Oh and I must remember 1972,'Fiddler on the Roof.' To me Memories are like a 'spot of tea' or beer or coffee. We are so touched by the memories of the music,because of the Music.
Totally enjoyed this. I thank you,& thx for the memories.
You’re very welcome Ronald! Lovely comment
Digital and Analogue are two distinct formats. Both have their plusses and minuses. One is not better than the other, they are both excellent when correct equipment is used.
One is not better from the other, they are inherently different and therefore require equally discerning accompanying equipment.
The argument is a misnomer.
Thank you for your videos, it is good for discussion to be.
You’re very welcome. Thanks too for your comment.
Fabulous presentatiion. I have always prefered anologue over digital and rarely listen to digital without a DAC. Now having said that - I have just finished digitising over 100 cassettes to ensure these are not lost to time. Burnt to CDs these sound way way better than anticipated and over the airwaves - sound fabulous.
Thanks 🙏. Best wishes
Your’s stories are amazing and argumentation great!!! Thank you very much!
You’re very welcome. Glad you appreciate it
Really exciting! Thank you so much for this discussion. All that is missing is the crackling of the flames in the fireplace and no doubt a cup of one of those excellent British teas. Musically yours.
Thank you very much indeed. You’re very kind!
Brilliant stuff. Thoroughly enjoyed it and .. never knew the Rega story. I'll look upon Rega in a whole new light !. Just one technical note ... Even £1k to £2k hand held spl meters struggle to measure below 30 - 35 dB. Up in the land of multi thousand pound (B & K or Gras) £10k - £20k will get you "close" to the "0" dB accepted limit of human hearing, so I'd imagine the app & smartphone combination is actually measuring it's own noise below about 35. If I'm wrong, and their self induced noise is around 20 dB ... let me know. So many of us want noise measuring capability down to 20 (or even less) without massive cost.
Thanks for your very motivating message. Indeed, I am sure you’re probably correct about internal noise of measuring devices, it makes perfect sense. Best wishes from Belgium.
Harley
It was a real pleasure to listen to your all three episodes here on UA-cam. Very inspiring indeed!
Thank you! That’s wonderful to hear.
You can even compare this discussion a bit with an Analog vs Digital Camera , although they both have their pros and cons.
Agreed
Thanks for this episode. Will checkout the record label you mentioned for sure!
Thanks!
There is still magic in analog. There is just something about it that can still grab my soul. The clicks and pops of vinyl still has some comfort for those of us who can remember a simpler time.
But if I am looking for the most perfect sound, I would go to digital. Personally, I record in digital. But many streaming services don't deliver the entire range of notes. For instance, "The Stroke" by Billy Squier. Listen to that on a quality "stereo" via cassette vs. what is on UA-cam. There are LOTS of notes in the lower register toward the end of the song that are not heard on UA-cam. The sad part of that story is that if it were presented in its entirety, the end portions of that song would be AWESOME in digital.
Another issue I am experiencing is the dynamic range of the speakers usually used to play streamed music. I can play many digital songs through the speakers I use for live performances and they sound really good but through my little JBL bluetooth speaker they lack a significant portion of the entire range of notes that are played on the song. Everyone I know plays their music through one of those bluetooth speakers or headphones. I have tried my in-ear monitors for streamed music and they sound absolutely horrible. But when I use them on stage, they are some of the best sounding speakers available.
I have an old (1920's) Sears tube radio that has an (1) awesome speaker in it. That speaker transfers everything that the radio signal is transmitting. But the digital radio in my car, with high-end speakers, won't deliver the same listening experience. Even when the car is stationary.
I think as time and technology progresses, we will get closer and closer to the magic of analog. Maybe digital would be exponentially better than analog if we were able to slice the sound wave millions of times per second? The more times a wave is slices, the closer the sampled "wave" will be to the analog wave. If someone were to figure out how to get a constant wave from digital, they would quickly become very rich.
I think DSD is a constant wave ?
Thanks for your appreciation and for your contribution to the topic
PCM is sampled at 44,100 per 16 bit.
DSD is sampled at 2.8 million + per 1 bit.
I have not heard anymusic on DSD yet. So I have no opinion on the quality.
Shannon and Nyquist figured it out a long time ago. The wave going into the digital recorder is exactly the same coming out of it due to their little theorem, you just don't know how it all works.
@@emilspec1227 indeed. Their mathematics is available in our download with the Aveline Gram track
Thank you for this series. I have been listening to my music exclusively on digital since 1983. I am a simple punter given to overdoing it on the volume knob. So I was so pleased to det rid of the fluff and scratches and palaver just to get the record to play. Then half way, through you have to turn the blessed thing over and start again. Ridiculous.
My buddy here is passionate about vinyl. He has a collection numbering into thousands. Indeed, he deals in them in the markets here in Provence.
Bottom , have two parts to our music appreciation. The technology and cost bring its own pleasures and frustrations. And the music. Forget the reproduction process, pour a glass of wine (another set of processes and pleasures), and enjoy your chosen music. I believe that is your message and we should all agree with it.
Absolutely!
I listened to cassettes recorded from fm for at least a decade after the first portable cd players came along. At the time I was just happy with the format.
I had a Dual C844 cassette player that recorded Radio 3 virtually lossless.
At a hifi show a log time a go I heard a live demo comparing a Nakamichi Dragon cassette recorder and it’s recording of a CD,switching between the two, I myself had a Nakamichi , not a dragon though but probably an entry level, but still pretty good, unfortunately the media isn’t @@JohnRussellHodge_progtwit
@@JohnRussellHodge_progtwit The C-844 is an amazing cassette deck seriouslly i wish i had one
This was my favorite of all your videos, Harley. The conclusion is beautifully stated. It’s all about the enjoyment. And yes, we live in a great time.
Thanks. You’re very kind
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. You cleverly avoided answering the actual title of your video... Your conclusion is valid though! If we consider only vinyl v digital then it's a pretty easy question to answer. Make a digital recording of the output of your turntable. Does it sound like vinyl or digital? (I don't think anybody would argue that they do in fact sound different) I've done this and to me it still sounds like vinyl. Indicating to me at least that vinyl is adding something that didn't exist in the original recording. Something nice and warm and euphoric but still a flaw if accurate reproduction of the original recording is the aim.
Thanks
There's a whole generation out there that have only ever experienced digital and to them the word means "the best" and analogue means "Old fashioned, outdated" and all the other terms associated with a badly looked after LP. And they're not interested in being educated as to what can be achieved in the analogue medium. Thankyou Harley for an informative lecture.
Thanks Mike. I do believe the perception is changing. Lots of young people are discovering vinyl and living it.
Isn't it the music that matters most for the most of us?
(@MrPetermc199: I fully agree!)
Excellent explanation of the matter, a pleasure to listen to your remarks.
I have always tried to pick the best of both worlds, an early stereo recording from the fifties on a good turntable can supply the same pleasure and excitement as a "hi-res" recording on Qobuz via an excellent streamer.
For me music isn't about "either - or", it's about "this and that", or "ambidexterity" as it is known in the corporate world. Bringing together the best of both worlds....
Nice comment
A fascinating video - informative and thought-provoking, with a great metaphor in the cups of tea. Looking forward to exploring more of your material - thank you !
Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you very much indeed.
Two words - Blue Train. Recorded in 1958 by John Coltrane. Remastered zillions of times both on digital and vinyl releases. When I play the vinyl I’m there, in 1958, hearing a great Blue Note recording that our parents related to. Or Kind Of Blue, same thing, a timeless vinyl recording that I must have some 7 vinyl versions of. Vinyl is as close to the real thing that there is. You didn’t say that, so I did. But don’t get me wrong, when you want a quick fix, digital is available. 😊
😀👍
I bumped into the series (parts 1-3) by accident. I am pretty much a nitwit wrt turntables, analog versus digital etc. but DO enjoy music to the fullest. But as I am technically educated (digital electronics) especially part 2 caught my attention completely......how amazingly interesting to learn about the F1 industry contributing to the development of a turntable f.i. ! Really mind blowing. Continuing with part 3, I fully concur with quite a few others....very interesting stories and indeed, I could listen to you for hours as well.
In fact, if you were to claim the sun comes up in the north every day......I'd believe you !! Many thanks!
What a lovely comment, thank you. In Flemish we have an expression ‘met de noorderzon vertrekken’ which means to disaster with the northern sun, ie without trace… luckily, I am pretty sure the sun still rises in the East 😃
@5:10, the light bulb turns on and off at 100 times a second. Yes, during the positive half of the 50hz cycle, the light bulb turns on, then during the second negative half of the 50hz, cycle, it turns on once again. That's twice for every 1/50th of a second, or in other words, it is on 100 times a second.
Thanks
I'm 65 years old, I'm mostly analog, so many good old memories (emotive connection), lucky enough to have a unique and still functional Rega, Grace, Harberth, Meridian 101 (all 1983) that I bought at the time, for peanuts. Now on, I invest my time and money to go see and hear live (orchestra/classic). I love your conclusion, 100% agree.
An audio system, a camera, a car, a rocket... the best is an endless discussion. Go with your vibe.
Thanks for sharing your story and for your kind words. Enjoy the concerts!
Oh, my goodness, Harley. That uncompressed recording is just amazing. Thank you for this, and the pleasure and information of all your videos.
You’re very welcome! Thanks for your kind feedback
Good video, as usual. I'm just going to leave some notes here regarding chapter 4. I understand the ritual of the process and even admit some influence, but it's pure illusion and even conditions discernment in an evaluation. The ritual does not make the sound quality better or worse. If you go to a friend's house and he plays music, you evaluate the sound quality without any affection for the hi-fi equipment. No ritual. I'm directly connected to the sound. About the "miracle" once again seems illusory to me, maybe someone will find it more miraculous that a "light" (laser) gives sound. There are people who find the "sound" (radio) coming through the air to the tuner even more fascinating and fantastic. For me it's a bit irrelevant. I use flac file on a computer and dac (not streaming), looking at a screen doesn't affect my sound, for better or worse. Only the sound quality, the sound recording quality directly influences me. My fight😂 is for better sound, the sounds of the studios all seem the same, they don't give us dimension, echo. I'll leave it here too, something that could be in chapter 4 - when I listen (eg The Wall by Pink Floyd) to listen to everything in a row without stopping... it has its value.
I'm going to make a suggestion here, and if you've read this far 😁 it's worth looking for, listening to recordings made by Chesky Records and going to the website - the audiophile society - and listening to the new way recordings - there's also something we have to learn there.
Thanks for the tip Luis
One of the best/clearest explanations I’ve heard about A vs D and dynamic range. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Just a great and thoughtful piece. Well paced and nice anecdotes. One request, though - please don't call Dynamic Range "Bandwidth" - we know bandwidth is measured in Hz and represents the frequency response between the low and high 3dB points.
Thanks fir your appreciation Mike
That ceremonial vs urgent tea analogy was so spot on! 🙂👏👏👏
😉
The sound waves coming from my speakers are analog (and always will be) but the source isn't always. My best sounding LPs are all digitally recorded (coincidence? I don't know). I love the sound of clean vinyl, CDs, SACDs and (16 and 24bit) FLAC/ALAC/APE/WAV files and even some MP3s - yes, I said MP3s.
I think when the sound is better than you expect it affects you more than just being "background music."
My favorite way to playback music is actually analog magnetic tape not designed specifically for audio. A digital 24-96 FLAC file recorded to HiFi STEREO VHS tape (TDK or BASF are best IMO) sound magnificent. Does it lose something in recording? Yes. Does it gain something in recording? Somehow, I believe, yes. VCR = "poor man's reel-to-reel" is the real deal!
Play whatever sounds best through your system and into your ears.
Thanks for the video(s) Harley.
Back in the late 80s and early 90s I too did a few recordings onto my Stereo Hi-Fi VHS recorder at the (wow, I have not said this in decades, but here comes the flash backs!) SP Mode (Standard Play)! It sounded just as good or even better than my 3-head cassette deck.
Thanks
I'm a bit of a sucker for watching a diverse selection of UA-cam videos about hifi, and I was looking forward to Pt 3 of this trilogy. I'd say it was the best of all that I've seen, full stop. Just brilliant, thanks to the passion and sincerity conveyed.
Thanks Neil. So glad you enjoyed it
In my living room/listening room, the noise floor is 29 db. Measured with a professional meter. This is very low, I think. I have acoustic windows and live in a quiet place when the neighbors dogs aren’t barking :-) The room is also acoustically treated to some extend. Having this quiet room really helps while listening.
The emotive connection is so important. I make coffee at home with beans from my local roaster, ground for each cup I make, use a lever espresso maker and carefully chosen cups. It tastes better than almost all coffee shops 😊. Slow coffee, in which I am intimately involved. Same with my vinyl. It takes time and a bit of expertise, and the sound (or coffee!) is a product of my efforts to some extent. I agree - enjoy the way you want to do it and like it. In the late 7os,I held up the mic from a Bush cassette deck to the wireless to record music onto tapes. I also drank instant coffee!
More recently I have been able to move on and find enjoyment 😅.
Thanks for sharing this lovely comment
Spin up an SACD for audio nirvana!
You clearly know what you are talking about 👍 but most of all I love it how you respect personal experience and taste! Great talks!
Thanks!