The CD revolution: Part 2: do all CD players sound the same?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- In this video (Pt.2 of 3), I explore two main questions: Can a 30 year old vintage CD player sound as good as a top of the range modern one? And, if we use our CD players as 'transports' (by connecting them to a DAC via their coax digital outputs), will they sound the same as each other, and as good as a modern high-quality transport?
CD Players featured: Vintage - QUAD 67 (from 1993), Philips CD 880 (from 1989), Sony CD 'Walkman' (From 1999)
Modern: Cyrus CDi-XR with PSU XR, Rega Saturn MK3, Pro-ject cd-box-RS2-t with Pre Box RS2 Digital DAC, Philips TAEP 200 (DVD/CD player).
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
08:09 The listening tests
As always, if you would like to find out more about Pearl Acoustics and our Sibelius loudspeakers, please visit our website at:
www.pearlacoustics.com
or email us with your questions:
enquiries@pearlacoustics.com
Social media links:
/ pearlacoustics
/ pearl.acoustics
The play list used for the comparison tests and elimination:
1. Beethoven Symphony No. 4 in B flat - 1st. Movement: Simon Rattle & Vienna Phil.
2. Little House on the Hill: Willie Nelson
3. Mountain O' Things: Tracey Chapman
4. Linda Paloma: Jackson Browne
5. St. James Infirmary: Count Basie and Dizzy Gillespie
6. You Look Good To Me: Oscar Peterson Trio
7. Goin' Ahead: Pat Metheny
8. Prachtig in het Blauw: Bart Peeters
9. Comfort ye my people: Handel's Messiah : Academy of Saint Martins in the Fields
10. Who's Blues: Chris Barber
11. One for My Baby: Dianne Reeves
12. Six Blade Knife: Dire Straits
13. God's Problem Child: Willie Nelson
14. Bitty Boppy Betty: Pink Martini
15. Gee Baby, Aint I Good To You: Diana Krall
16. Lay Down: Indigo Spirit
Link to Maarten's video shorts, Fjall Music: @fjallmusic
![[柴犬ASMR]曼玉Manyu&小白Bai 毛发护理Spa asmr](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0TsXQ7z2Dh4/mqdefault.jpg)
Every time I want to replace a component, I just turn the volume up a little bit to make it sound better and I'm happy again.
Great comment! 😀
You need something that goes up to 11 then 😉
I like your attitude! You are a healthy person!
At my age the sound need to be up a lot
The audiophile community declares you the winner of the loudness war.
Very interesting test! I came to the same conclusion a few years ago after buying a very expensive T+A SACD player and couldn't hear any difference to my 1988 Technics CD player. Thank you for this professional review.
You’re very welcome! Glad you enjoyed it
What an excellent subject matter and presentation. This is the standard for all UA-cam technical audio discussions.
Thank you!
Many presenters fail to live up to the standard.
so glad i made it to 73 where everything sounds good
😀
This is a very interesting and informative comparison. Thanks!
My pleasure!
Harley, you just nailed a lot here. Please keep on producing such great videos for us. So fascinating. ❤
Thanks! I will try to keep them coming 😉
Absolutely brilliant survey
Such amazing hard work and dedication
Thankyou
Thanks, I am glad you appreciated it. (I must admit it was way much more work than I had originally planned)! 😉
Thanks, Harley. very perceptive as always. I'm looking forward to part 3.
You’re very welcome
I found this really interesting, thank you for your time and trouble at doing tests like this.
Thank you Martin, that’s very kind
This is absolutely riveting could not get over how incredible this is Bravo.
Thank you! Very kind
Wow! Thanks so much for these two videos. Very, very interesting. Can't wait for part 3.
You’re very welcome!
@PearlAcoustics Also, I'm very curious to hear what you have to say about the Saturn MK3 as I own an Elex-R integrated amp. I've been looking for a new CD player to replace a 30 year old YAMAHA player (that doesn't have digital outputs). There aren't too many Rega products reviews on UA-cam. It will be nice to see what you have to say. 😊
Fantastic video, especially the findings when using the external DAC. Thank you and looking forward to part 3.
Glad you enjoyed it Dan.
Every video on this channel feels like yet another relaxed afternoon with a good friend talking about the subjects I most enjoy. Keep up the good work!
Thank you 🙏
i feel like i need some Makers and a little bit of jazz in the background.
Many Thanks, I didn't realize it till you mentioned but I've alawys wondered about the relationship between analog and digital converters with different setups. Delightful Insights 🔥
Thank you. You’re very welcome
👍😄. What a wonderful program! Excellent exposition in every way! Some mysteries were solved for me. Part 3 is very intriguing. - Heather
😀
Many thanks ! Very useful and interresting study ! Can't wait for the next one !
Thanks! Pt. 3 comes out on May 2. At 20:00 GMT+1
Have to agree with CG below, 2 great videos and very much looking forward to the third.
Great that you included what happens when external dac is used and glad with the conclusions of your panel.
Thank you Harley for making and sharing these very insightful videos with us. Much appreciated.
Hi Con, the pleasure is all mine! So pleased you enjoy our videos. Of course, I only do the research and the talking, my colleague Ajay does the back room editing stuff! 😉
@@PearlAcoustics Do pass on my application to Ajay.
@@conkelleher8454 I certainly will. Thanks!
I appreciate the detailed and thoughtful work you're doing in this comparo. These are questions that a lot of us have had for decades and they can only be answered to a good level of satisfaction after a considerable investment in time and equipment. So, thank you!
Thanks, you’re very kind. I appreciate your comment very much.
Excellent video, Harley! Love all your contents. Many thanks for that👏🏻
My pleasure!
Great video thank you. Really like your presentation style and knowledgeable delivery 💯
Thank you. That’s very kind.
Very interesting, looking forward to the sequel !
Greetings from Berlin
Thanks!
Valuable test; I’m glad one of the reviewers stuck with the Phillips unit until the end, I feel sure the engineers put a great deal of effort into it. I appreciate the fact your friend loaned it for the exercise.
🙏 indeed it was great to see the Philips keep up with the new ones, after all these years
Very interesting, thanks so much for taklng the time and effort to make this video. Much appreciated
Thanks Erik. It’s comments like yours that make all the effort worthwhile
@@PearlAcoustics 🙏
Thank you very much for your time and efforts. Very informative and interesting series of videos.
Thank you. You’re very kind
Excellent video, I have just 3 weeks ago bought a Rega Elex 4 and wanted a CD player also, we tried a few players and they were quite good but then decided to try the Audiolab CDT 9000 transport through the Elex 4 internal DAC, it was a huge improvement that I wasn't expecting, so much so I had to take one home and am extremely happy with the sound of the combination.
My system is complete for now with my P6 turntable also.
Looking forwards to part 3.
Hi Ian, thanks for your kind words. Isn’t it great when one has a system that one can simply enjoy and relax with?
Aren't higher priced CD players priced higher because of the superiority of the DAC inside? IOW, how much difference can the transport section actually make? I suspect not much.
Superb show, as always. Looking forward to part 3
Thanks 🙏
Thanks for doing this for us. Truly exemplary thoughtful process
Thank you! 🙏
Good lord, I love everything about this video.
I've on occasion dreamt f setting up similar such comparisons myself -- but never quite managed to go through with it. And wouldn't have been able to, at this level.
Thank you. That’s very kind. I have to tell you it was quite some work, it took way more time and effort than I intended. So comments like yours make it all worthwhile. 🙏
Thank you for that very interesting pair of videos. This confirms all my own less formal experiments! I, too, came to the conclusion that you could take a ‘cheap’ cd mechanism as input to a decent DAC stage and get surprisingly good results. But not all, ‘cheap’ cd mechanisms will have the appropriate outputs for you to achieve this easily. My own dvd/blue ray player only has one output designed for a TV. But I’ve had great success improving the sound of Denon and Technics CD players by feeding them into better DACS.
IT’s a cheap and satisfying way to improve your system.
Thanks Andrew, very kind
I've been eagerly awaiting this video- I like the content and the direction of the channel.
Same here! I'm in the market for a nice transport that isn't overpriced, and not made by slaves.
Thanks Charles!
Ditto 💯 %
Thank you Harley, another superb presentation & always enjoy your warm friendly personality. As a dedicated analog guy I recently decided to upgrade my digital gear. As it turns out we had a bit of a shootout of our own which was truly eye opening. People can talk all the technical specs they want but even though Peter at Audio Note sticks to rebook, the sound is simply so natural, so you are there. Everyone of us preferred the Audio Note system to a full boat DCS system that on paper you wouldn't think possible. And I completely agree with your view, more attention to the DAC is money better spent.
Thank you Scott, that’s very kind. And thank you too for your very interesting contribution to the topic
Thank you, very good testing and conclusion.
Thanks - you’re welcome
Another Great installment. Really glad you did the comparison on the digital outs too & as you said it seems that the way forward is definitely to utilise an older or cheaper CD player as transport & Spend the money on the DAC.
Would be very interested to see how some of the really high end DACs from the 90's 2000's compare to the more modern ones. I recently added a Cambridge audio DACMagic to my setup from which I also feed a old Studio DAC from the late 90's & I was really surprised to find I much preferred the order dac. It seemed to have a much flatter response across the spectrum while the newer DAC while probably more lively was also tiring to listen to in comparison.
Looking forward to part 3
Thanks Chris! I think you have an important point here. A modern, highly revealing and ‘fast’ Dac, is not necessarily the most pleasant to listen to music on! The original engineers, had vinyl as their reference, and I think that impacted the outcome in the fine tuning.
@@PearlAcoustics Hi Harvey,znot sure if you'll see this but you've sent me down the rabbit hole so to speak. I've been doing some "Critical Listening" over the past week and have come to an interesting conclusion perhaps one for you to contemplate also. The older DAC I have is a Swissonic AD96 (considered highly in it's day next to the apogee Rosetta's) I've found that the preferable DAC in terms of listener experience depends largely on the age of recordings e.g. I have found recordings made in the era of my DAC (late 90's) sound better through a 90's dac ( for example Michael shrieve's Two Doors) however more modern recordings sound better through the more modern DAC so it seems there is a difference in the EQ/presentation for each DAC but more interestingly is that the engineers seem to have accounted for this & to me at least the best playback seems to be through a DAC commensurate with the era. An interesting one for you to explore should you desire.
@@chriswraith9988 Hi Chris. I’ve read it. Thanks very much for your comment. A very interesting approach. I wonder if anyone else has experienced a similar outcome? I have never thought of it this way. I will re-listen beating the age of the recording in mind.
What an awesome series! I did hear a noticable difference when I put my Audiolab ctd6000 on sorbothane spheres - particularly with grip in the bass. I was using these as a bit of 'good housekeeping' and was not actually expecting to hear a difference at all. Viva CDs!!
Thanks
I have the CDT 6000, it's not in my system at the moment. It's been replaced by the wiim mini and qobuz. £89 and bit perfect.
@@r423sdex Interesting! I've got the Wiim mini & a Qobuz subscription. I can confirm that it sounds fantastic!
I was shortly going to replace my Marantz CD5005 (being used as a transport) for either the CDT6000 or the CDT9000.
You've made me wonder if it's worth the bother! 🤔
@@martinclift3843 don't bother with the cd transport, I have 3 gathering dust. I plugged my IPhone into my dac, even that is better than the cd. Wiim mini is better by a long way.
Thank you Harley, this sounded like such a fun thing to be apart off. You made it very clear (to me) regarding the cd transport into a modern Dac. This has always been a question of mine, is there a difference in transports? Glad there isn't a big difference. I can leave my Cyrus 6s (second hand) alone.
You’re very welcome Hardeep. Indeed enjoy your Cyrus 6
No! All modern transports and DACs are only copies of Philips, Sony and teac-tascam! Do not waste your money on these fraud products!
Good stuff, can’t wait for P3!
Thanks!
Yet another interesting video. Thank you, Harley!
My take on modern DAC - two main areas on where it really matters
1. the quality of the power supply to the various stages
2. the 'sound' of the output/gain/buffer stage. Opamps or discrete parts add a lot of flavours to the eventual sound, more than the different DAC used
Thanks. Very interesting comment
The last thing you want is something adding flavour. All you want is high fidelity, no noise and distortion. Otherwise it's being added to all the music.
@@r423sdex Apparently, some audiophiles like to have a bit of hiss and some other forms of distortion and noise, as you get from tubes and phono cartridges. Exact replication of digital masters is not favored by all.
@@PearlAcoustics perhaps you can consider updating the philips by changing out the opamps (5532?) and put into sockets so you can use some newer opamps such as opa16xx etc.
You'll probably feel a veil lifted initially but can be a bit too clinical for some.
Still, you can easily reinstate the original opamps with the sockets
@@Unker_Spunkanathan thanks for the suggestion. But it was loaned to me for the test! 😉
amazing series!! 🙌
Thank you 🙏
fantastic video,can't wait for part 3,i have cd player philips cd670 and my opinion about good sounding of philips players is,they have very good cdm 4/19 transports,also good 1541 dac in all sorts of variants..can't wait for third part video...i wish you all the best..
Thanks Miljan
Absolutely fascinating results. Can't wait for part 3.
👍
A rigorous and excellent comparative review - and one that should set the standard for others. I often ask audiophiles about why they prefer one component over another, and ask them if they have ever blind switch tested them. They never have....
Thank you for your kind appreciation and comment
I remember a few years ago when wine was blind tested, and the result was anything but expected! Many of the newer wine producing countries were preferred over the older European producers, much to their chagrin! Of course, it is very subjective, and I suppose ultimately it is what the market prefers which could well be influenced by price not only taste, that is most important if you want to sell a lot of it!.
I know myself that I have purchased expensive wine on occasion and not always really impressed by its flavour and quite frankly could have picked the local Sainsbury's plonk in a blind test. You may realise that I am no oenophile!
Could this also be true of the audiophile who is used to listening to music that sounds characteristic of the types of players they themselves have bought?
@@georgedyson9754 I would probably guess so. In their defence, however, a blind switch sort of test like the one in this video can be difficult to replicate. Still, ime, even a quick and dirty blind test with some missing steps can still be very revealing.
I shall do a similar test too. Between the modified and all stock player and also, test same albums from different studios using two same machines. Results are always fun and eye opening for sure
Go for it!
Brilliant. Really enjoyed this. Thank you
You’re very welcome Paul
Wonderful exploration of audio reproduction history. Thank you Harley. I love all your test music and know why this music is chosen. I would personally like to see something that might demonstrate the elusive 'Boogie Factor', or music that makes one immediately get up and dance around with joy (eg well recorded 'Electric Guitar Rock', something more substantial than Dire Straits anyway). I have had top flight systems, but sometimes they have not always been totally 100% musically satisfying, across all 'genres'. Quite a trick to get something that does it all? Looking forward to part 3 :0) ps Apologies if you have covered this elsewhere (new subscriber)
Welcome to the channel! And thanks very much for your comment. I totally get it
I have a Marantz cd80 and I think it has the same dac as the Philips 880. Bought it new and still sounds wonderful.
Great series
Thanks Anne!
You are so right ,Anne!
Excellent work as always. I have the Rega player so looking forward to part 3!
Thanks Don!
I just got an Onkyo DX-C390 6 disc cd changer with vector linear shaping circuitry and direct digital path open box from Best Buy for $100. Got the 4 year warranty for $20. It’s normally $350. It most definitely sounds better than my old player. The difference is night and day paired with my Yamaha A-S801
I've watched this video while having breakfast this morning. The coffee went cold. I was at the edge of my seat. It was really helpful, especially to streamline my future equipment investments: 1> immediately upgrade my coaxial cable || 2> separate pre-amplifier || 3> A better DAC, in the long-term, I just got a new one a few months back. Thanks so much for this. Your take and approach has been superb in all the videos of your channel. I've learned so much. Thanks.
Thanks Gabriel, sorry your coffee went cold! 😉 so glad you find them useful
It's good to get some perspective on older equipment and how it compares with later generations. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
"There is no conflict" Darth Vader
"There is no comparison" I
Old gear was made by engineers and enthusiasts, the new one by marketing departments.
Thank you for confirming my views on CD players. I still use a Rega Planet player bought new by myself in about 1994. I've listened to many newer players and could hear no reason to "upgrade".
You’re welcome!
Rega Planet super CD Player ❤❤❤
This was highly interesting! Thank you!👍
Glad you enjoyed it! You’re very welcome
This is a wonderful series of videos - thanks for putting them together - the effort is not inconsiderable! I would be interested to know (I am 33 btw) if there is a socialisation effect - your young listeners preference to newer players could be confounding a socialised change in taste… this isn’t a criticism, more of a “yes but…” - 10/10!
Hi, thanks for your kind comment. As per your question, I think the review sample was too small, but…. 1 third of them preferred the vintage Philips AND the other third found it impossible to differentiate between the vintage Quad 67 and the new Cyrus, and the last third only preferred the Cyrus by the smallest margin. (This can also be down to the fact that the Quad 67’s components are thirty years old)! 😉
Dear Harley! I like your videos! What components in the DAC s can make them sound different?
As expected. If using a digital out (coaxial or optical) and the player is providing an uncorrupted data stream; use whatever you want. No point wasting cash any anything special, as the DAC/Amp/AVR will do the heavy lifting. So get a DAC/Amp/AVR that you like the sound profile of.
Awesome test and looking forward to part 3.
Jordan
Thanks Jordan!
These videos are fascinating. I can Philips as a customer and was allowed to buy stuff at the staff shop. I was surprised that you didn’t mention the Laserdisc because I always thought that the CD was a spinoff. I bought a Marantz CD player just before moving to the USA in 1985. It wasn’t very reliable and I bought the first Discman as a backup. I am pleased that the CD is making a comeback. Fortunately, I haven’t thrown my 1,200 CDs away. I grew up in Worthing down the street from B&W. The coils were wound by the housewives in our street.
Thanks! Indeed, I think you’re right that the video disc came first and cd for audio was not taken seriously in the beginning. Hence, only Sony took up the challenge at first.
I live in Worthing now, and have a couple of pairs B&W, I should pop by the factory I think they have a mini museum. I kept my CDs too thankfully, and have a Quad 66, I must try the coax into my DAC, hadn't thought of that.
@@DamonGreen You’re welcome. Let me know if VW have a museum, it would be worth a visit. 😉👍
I love the Philips CD 880 nice warm sound !
Brilliant review
Thanks Ricky!
I'm still listening to my Harman/Kardon HD760. It was built at the end of the nineties and costed originally 1300DM. Nowadays around 1000€. I bought it from eBay five years ago for about 100€. It always sounded good, but after connecting it to a real NF-cable (Transparent Music Link Plus) it started singing. What a glory! And I prefer the sound of the DAC inside the Harman over the DAC-sound of my Cambridge Audio 851n azur streamer/network player/ DAC. That's why I still listen to the analogue output stage of the Harman. ;-)
Best regards from Germany and thank very much!
got the 710 and I really cannot complain
Thanks Sebastian. Glad you enjoyed it. And thanks too for your contribution to the discussion
I had a Kenwood DP 7090 with 8 Burr Brown chips in the DAC. Still one of the best machines I've ever heard
Nice
It is a very good machine!
Very interesting video's for audio-hobbyists, thank you 👌
Glad you enjoyed it Jef.
@@PearlAcoustics,thanks, I absolutely did. Also nice to hear that the Philips CD-880 still is able to compete with modern players. I have one...😉
As a great CD enthusiast with a very large collection, I am loving this! Very well done, informative and entertaining. I have six CD player (Naim, Rega, Musical Fidelity, Rotel, Sony, Parasound) and a Denafrips Pontus II dac, that has been a really wonderful surprise on soind quality. I am really curious on what would be the outcome if could add one of this recent R2R dacs to that comparison. My Parasound bcd2000 transport and dac1000hd dac combo mentioned above, is more than 20 years old and still is a reference. In my opinion, CD reproduction has been totally satisfying since the late 90’s... at a cost of course. I can’t wait for part 3...and 4 :)
I am so glad you are enjoying our videos. I enjoy making them too, so it’s a win, win. I wonder which player you would keep, if you could only have 1? 😉
You should see your doctor!
I enjoy part 2 much as part 1 because you have the Philips cd880 standing there like a brick. For me one of the most beautiful vintage CD Player. That's why I love my vintage Philips cd850, over 32 years old and plays almost every day what i want to hear in a for me great way. Sorry, I'm a vintage Philips hifi Lover 😊.
No apology needed! Glad you enjoyed them.
I have a Philips cd 850 mk Ii cd player which I bought a couple of years ago second hand after my much newer NAD player decided to quit. The 850 mk Ii uses a bitstream dac and sounds very smooth, silky and atmospheric. Although more than 30 years old it blew the NAD out of the water.
Thanks for your comment
Thanks for this great series.
I just added the Topping E50 DAC to my headphone stack ..being fed by my decades old Denon 3520 cd 💿 player …and you’re absolutely correct .
If the mechanical composure in working order and all the ins and outs are correctly functioning…an outboard DAC is an excellent way to update and upgrade the sound🎉
Thanks once again.
You’re very welcome Carmine
@@PearlAcoustics I look forward to the 3rd video in this series.
Thank you 🍕👍
If you believe that any modern DAC (including this E50 that you mention and i have never heard of) could beat the DENON sound, especially 3520 or 3560......man, you are deeply wrong. I have DENON 2560GL and it still sounds better than the newest giga, mega, hyper, super-duper, ultra advanced Saber ESS ES9026PRO which is in Technics SL-G700 M2. The only reason that it sometimes loses in terms of punch, bass and dynamics in some demanding Metallica tracks is that there is not a single electrolyte capacitor alive into the device. Neither in power supply section nor in audio circuit. Simply their lifespan is over. But i remember it when it was new....it was not a DENON, it was real sound DEMON. So go have your capacitors replaced and forget about all the modern stuff. 😉👍
@@nickolaymiltenov interesting 🤔
@@carminedesanto6746 .....but true. Wait for my comment in general discussion where i will explain in details my point of view.
Very informative, thank you👍
Glad it was helpful!
You're videos are really interesting it is not often that film makers actually research really worthwhile subjects . Excellent work Harvey !
Thanks Mark
Praise due Harvey you have taught me a lot xx
I know they are not terribly expensive but I have found the Ifi Zen 2 the most incredible sounding dac in my experience fed directly into active studio monitors . I have tended to use Spotify and UA-cam recently as
sources which I know are not state of the art but you do get tremendous
choices of material . You could actually listen to different stuff forever
without ever repeating any tracks which is quite mind blowing !
I would be interested if you evaluated some of the Ifi products yourself.
Thanx again mate .
Harley!
Looking forward to Part 3
My 1st cd player was one of the earlyish Yamaha "natural sound " models. It was paired with a Nad 3020 amplifier & B&W stand mount speakers
It was very musical 🎶 👍 🇬🇧
👍
Nice presentation.
Thank you!
Well done! I can't wait for part three. I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion. May I suggest that you do this same kind of review of DACs? Extending from what you concluded here, I would postulate that the output preamp of a DAC will have a significant effect on the sound of the DAC, and maybe more than the DAC itself. Heresy?
Hi Jef, thanks for your kind words. I think I will look into Dac’s at some point. The interesting thing here (for me) is that in some cases (like the Lyngdorf TDAI1120) there is no pre out, as such, they just filter off the non ‘audio’ information. I think I will have to get to grips with the fundamentals of Dac design first! 🙃 There’s just so much to learn in this industry
@@PearlAcoustics There seems to be a lot of mystery around DACs, much of which might be considered hype (by some). For example, an R2R DAC is incredibly difficult to get a lot of "real/usable" bits out of, due to the matching requirements for the resistors. But some of the most highly touted DACs are R2R designs. This doesn't make sense when one considers the limitations of this approach, ESPECIALLY using discrete resistors. And there are various DACs that use the same chips, but might sound different. This can only be due to other aspects of the unit, such as the output amplifier, noise isolation, etc. It would be interesting to see if there are discernable differences between DACs that are designed with the same chip. I don't think I've seen anyone make this comparison using a formal A/B testing approach.
This was very worthwhile, Harley! I've found that each of the 4 or 5 disc spinners I've owned each had a distinct personality & their distinctive sound took at least a few days to reveal itself. Most were enjoyable, especially my '90's vintage Harman/Kardon which sounded a lot like the reviewer in Stereophile wrote (impressive bass extension). I kept the H/K over 12 years, but I recall that the new $150USD Sony SACD player that replaced "Lady H/K" sounded a bit thin when I bought it. A year & a half later, it still sounded fairly anemic on CD or SACD, so I was glad to be rid of that one.
Thanks Pat. We have an H/K in the factory, I always thought it performed extremely well.
What an extremely refined, elegant, empirical, observation of CD playback. I do so enjoy the Canadian kit version of the English AudioNote DAC to play through. The Resistor/Transformer/Resistor, I/V conversion, sans any op amp implementation and the R2R architecture, non-oversampling, method for reconstruction, what was recorded vs the computational algorithm guessing at what was laid down, via the Delta Sigma methodology, for me, yield a more enjoyable performance.
Thank you Scott. And thanks too for your comment. It always amazes me how many ways there are of solving a problem
I understand that you are dazed and confused.have you considered snake oil and an expensive gadget that can clean your power supply!!!???
@@GeirRssaak My condolences, having to live a life, sans a cortex.
Dear Scott! I respect your opinions!
Dear Wolf! Thank you for your sympathy!
Dear Harley ,
This is going beyond interesting .. just can’t wait for the part 3
I really appreciate the way you explain things in simplest way so non audiophile can understand that easily. By the way I m buying albums on your review and love em so much even the background of mine is not that particular genre of music
Just can’t thank you enough for making interesting videos.
Have a question?? In those cd players you must have optical ( Toslink) output so why didn’t you use ? Is coax better than optical ?
Than you
Kind regards
Hi Atri, you’re very kind. Thank you. In fact I do not have optical outputs in the CD players, only coax or analog. So I cannot help you there, I am afraid. I was once told that Coax is superior to optical, as it has less components in the chain.
I remember the old argument of single beam laser pickup vs 3 beam laser pickup, when in reality it was just a mirror splitting the single into 3 beams anyway. Good video. I think you are right. Most any CD player collects the same high quality digital signal from the disc. The DAC is where the sound difference comes in.
Thanks for your appreciation and your comment
I've really enjoyed this series so far. It seems to have fairly convincingly challenged the idea that CD transports make a big difference to the sound, something that many of us suspected. The methodology seems pretty sound (small pun intended), and I appreciate the care taken. So your next task is to bump up the sensitivity of your excellent speakers so I can power them with the 12.5 Watts my 300b amp puts out. 😉
Hi Jim. Thanks for your kind comment! It’s much appreciated. Now increasing the efficiency of the Sibelius loudspeaker is going to be a massive challenge! 😉. If you have a true 12,5watts per channel with both channels driven, you will have about 100db into your room. For me that’s more than enough 😂. Enjoy the music. Best wishes, Harley
Indeed I have found the transport to be almost as important as the dac.
@@davidspendlove5900 I'm confused, are you disagreeing about the OP's comment?
Sorry to say my transport only has transformed my system . I was already using a very good universal blu Ray player to the same dac . Its only better organisation of sound but amounts to a transformed sound with detail being affected in a positive way . Texture too is better but clarity is about the same .
If you have a good dac, a good transport is vital to get the very best from that.
Long long ago we listened to that Quad in the shop ......it sounded quite good but when we hooked it directly to the power amplifier ( The Quicksilver mono 8417 ) and the big Spendor .something happend ............we were in the music with a roof above us and surrounded by it .........a wonderfull e"xperience but not practical because we couldn't adjust and lower the soundlevel because that would have harmed the magic..hahaha
Even with Frankie goes to Hollywood ....we were in th e DOME .......
The big Philips left us with a great souvenir ..........it played MUSIC ..........and propably it still does ...
Thanks for your comment Frank
I believe that you have done a good test!
Thank you!
Kudos - that was excellent!! As someone who was about to spend £1k on a new transport, you've stopped me in my tracks. Looking forward to part 3.
Thanks Martin. Part 3 coming soon. Best wishes from Belgium
Build & component quality should be superior for 1K 💿 👍
thanks for sharing I use my Oppo UDP 203 as a transport. I rotate between an Arcam irDac with a Booster power supply and a Denafrips Ares II. In my own testing I preferred the sound of the external Dac's to what's in the Oppo 203
That’s interesting, I have never heard an Oppo… but they have acquired cult status now it seems?
Interesting, as that Oppo is reputed to have an excellent DAC and output stage. I have been keen to get one for playing surround sound music and 4k Blurays in my multichannel system, but they still command very high prices on the second-hand market. Unfortunately, no one seems to make as good players these days.
@@jimfarrell4635 I was lucky in purchasing my unit. When Oppo got out of the UDP business I called the company and asked if any were left I was told no. I gave them my phone number just in case they found one. A few days later I received a call saying they found a few units so I purchased one. I can’t believe what these units command in the used market
@@PearlAcoustics I’m interested in finding out which CD player you preferred in part 3. I would assume I could rule out the portable CD player….lol
@@cruzingrsx4484 yes indeed! 😀
What's really impressive is that that 1989 Philips was fitted with such capable DAC. Kudos to the Dutch!
And the Belgian technical design team 😉
You are so right!
is not surprising when you consider that cd audio system was developed by philips.
Very interesting and also useful but also entertaining!
That’s very good to hear. Thank you.
Harley, excellent work. I have often considered replacing my Rotel RCD2, which is 24 years old because newer technology should be better. For awhile now, I have been using it as a transport connected to a Denafrips dac and it sounds very good. You have validated my own experience. Thank you.
You’re very welcome Dave! Thanks for your kind appreciation
I miss my Rotel CD player. It lasted almost 20 years and the first 10 of these it was playing almost all the time when I was at home (no TV, no internet, only CDs). It 'died' a few years ago. Honestly I think that Rotel deserves a place on part 1 of this series - Rotel managed to make really good and relatively affordable players.
When I started looking for a new transport my main consideration was not sound quality, but how long I wanted it to last. I have many CDs and still like to spin them. The market of players and transports is shrinking - many of the best drive mechanisms (Philips or Sony, your Rotel has a Sony IIRC) aren't produced anymore - and as long as stocks last some new old stock drives are put into a new chassis (like the Denafrips Avatar). After that there will be only really cheap drives or really exotic and expensive ones that are not necessarily going to last very long.
I went for a Jays Audio transport - a nice virtually indestructive Philips drive in it, and easy to service (if ever needed). I do think that it sounds better too - it was a bonus that I didn't expect - but saying that here will unfortunately get some people here all worked up.
As a Belgian computer guy, it was always my thought that the CD player is there to extract data and has CRC, so as long as it has a stable transport and jitter is well in control, the sound signature would be related only to the DAC section and further elements down the chain.
Thanks for the efforts you put in setting-up this test and help us (re)discover those iconic CD players... I have difficulties discussing with audiophiles who pretend to have bionic ears and hear day and night differences between things that are undistinguishable to me (like the difference between a 100€ and a 5000€ coax cable ;-) So I appreciate your humble, pragmatic and unbiased approach.
I hope you will someday have series about FLAC, MQA (pretty much dead now), DSD, etc... I can easily smell a low bitrate MP3 but I feel like it will be very so hard to compare a 16bit 44.1Khz FLAC with higher-res music. I'm not sure I hear a difference due to a different (re)mastering, sometimes not sure I hear a difference at all, or is my mind tricking me ? I would be curious to hear your thoughts on all this...
Hi Sebastian thank you very much for your kind comment and interesting suggestion. Indeed, in a lot of cases (assuming the mastering is identical) telling apart some different file types would be very difficult. But sometimes it’s just easier to know you are listening in high res so you know you’re getting the best quality possible. But a track with distortion on it from the original recording is always going to have it.
As a Danish computer guy, I can relate to a lot of that. I have come to know a couple of audiophiles who spend staggering amounts of money on equipment, and while their setups do sound really good, I have come to the conclusion that they are the wrong people to ask why. For them it is all "black boxes" that presumably do magic stuff better than some other black boxes. One does not have to understand something in depth in order to enjoy it though, however when they talk about their network setup, a subject which I do know about, it becomes apparent that there is at least some degree of beliefs over facts. I know other people who are into HiFi, who have setups that to me sound just as good, but without the voodoo.
Btw, audio CDs (red book) do have pretty basic error correction, which is much less than data CDs, so I can imagine that not all manufacturers spend the same amount of effort prevent, detect and mitigate errors.
You are so right! You Belgians and dutch invented the cd! The hifi reviewers tend to be tonedeaf and unmusical!
hyggelig å høre fra en dansk data ekspert! Danskene har alltid laget meget bra lydprodukter! Problemet idag er at de fleste hifi kritikere er umusikalske og tonedøve!det siste jeg har lest, er at man trenger en egen strømrenser til ti tusen kroner for å få god lyd!
You are so right!
I recently used my old Audiolab 8200CD as transport into my Moon DAC. Just like I bought a new CD player. Don't need a new one anymore. Very interesting video.
Thanks Alain!
This brings me to another place. I had a 5 cd carousel player, a sony with the dsp. I wish I had not given it away. It had thousands of hours of great listening to it.
Thanks!
Anyone reading this that is on a budget and needs a newer model: I can recommend the Onkyo C-7030, which has a Wolfson DAC, remote and digital line out. It's beautiful to look at, very minimalist layout, built-in headphone amp and has amazing sound. I have other players but always come back to it.
Thanks very much for your valuable contribution to the topic.
I’m rehabbing an old Sony CDP -70. If that doesn’t work out my eye is on the Onkyo.
Wonderful video, sir.
@@briancaine9130 thank you! Good luck with you refurb project
Yes, that is my conclusion also that any transport sounds the same when we take digital out and it is the same output from the transport regardless of what transport it is coming from.
I made that finding when trying to compare streaming vs CD.
I afterwards figured out that I actually tested the CD player built in DAC against the DAC that the streaming were using.
I redo the testing and took the digital out from the CD player and feed the same external DAC that the streaming were using.
Now with the same DAC i could not tell a difference between CD or streaming (for that song that I had choose anyway).
Now I use a old OPPO that can play anything optical media. And take the digital out. So CD, DVD-Audio, SACD, HDCD, BD-Audio and so on ..
So the tip is get a player that can play as many formats as possible then use the digital out and use your preferred DAC and you can play any optical format that comes your way and have a excellent sound. 🎉
So my personal conclusions were if I can't hear a difference between a astonishingly good CD (actually it was a HDCD that had very good dynamic range when testing the same track but on several different releases. Tested with dynamic range testing software and this one stood out a little bit better than the other releases) and the streaming service. Then the streaming service is good enough for me..
And I am a happy camper. 😅
Very interesting comment. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. Glad you have a happy conclusion
Yup, l went through a similar journey and basically found the same as yourself. Digital out to a DAC ... Hard to hear a real difference on a USD 40k rig. Streaming from a NAS also surprised me. Great video btw
Than you very much Harley for doing that nice tests. I enjoyed it very much. A side note: I haven’t realized that the word “minute” has different pronunciations depending on if it is a noun or and adjective.
You’re very welcome Carlos!
Excellent test. I use a Coax out straight into a 24 Bit DAC - just great.
Thanks!
THANKS HARLEY 🤗 for doing ALL the hard 😅 work … being as objective as possible 💚💚💚
Thanks, that’s very kind. (I have to admit, the CD series did take quite a bit of preparation and research)!
@@PearlAcoustics YES ,🤗 BUT IT’S WORTH IT …to educate all
@@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461 🙏
Thanks for doing this, I have heard small differences with transports, I ended up some time ago just using an old Rega planet, with a good Burson dac 160, not the best but great analogue out.
You’re very welcome. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.
Many thanks. Excellent. Recent discovery :)
You're welcome!
I liked that.. interesting idea to take a cd player as a transport mechanism..and introduce a recent DAC..ok I'll listen out for part 3
Glad you enjoyed it
I've heard about 3 different cd players in my time. A NAD 542, a 515 bee and a Philips CD160. You can definately tell between the 542 and 515 bee (which I didn't like and ended up selling). My favourite is the NAD 542 .The CD 160 is my second favourite. I bought Beresford DAC as I wanted to play USB from my PC into my amp, it also has Coax digital inputs and so as a matter of interest I connected the Philips CD160 to the DAC to see the "benefits" of 40 years of Digital improvements. Or so I thought, or if you believe the marketing hype. I struggled to tell a difference between the Beresford DAC and the 40 year old built in DAC from the CD160. The DAC may have been slightly cleaner, but it was almost impossible to tell much difference. When I connected the NAD 542 to the Beresford, I couldn't tell any difference.
Regarding your listening tests, it would have been an interesting exercise to repeat the test after an hour or so and see if people marked the results the same. I bet they wouldn't have marked them the same.
A final note, when we bough the NAD 542 from the dealer, we took along the CD160 to play it through the shop's stereo system to see if it was worth buying a new CD or not. It was played through a top of the line Amp and LInn speakers. We could definately tell a difference there. So, differences between CD players become more apparent on the the quality of the amp and speakers.
Hi, thanks for your comment. You raise some very good points here, especially on listening fatigue and subjectivity. It is possible we could have had different results, although Pierre-Nicolas and Maarten have very discerning hearing - it’s their job. And the were both very consistent throughout. I even double blinded Pierre-Nicolas and he immediately said “I think you’ve switched them, this is CD4, not 3!” And he was absolutely right. Indeed, the differences are easier to discern with high quality equipment
Not an audiophile and cannot afford expensive machines. I found this video very informative, educational and most of all, enjoyable. Thank you !
Very clear explanation. thanks for that. a year ago after many many years of service I sold my Sony 30ES (built like a tank) that served as a transport connected to a R2R DAC. Because I don't play many CDs anymore I bought a cheap Audiolab 6000cdt transport and connected it to the same R2R DAC. The shock was unexpected , the Audiolab really sounds much better .
Thanks for your comment. How interesting. That could of course be down to the old machine not capturing the data correctly.
I have had lots of cd players over the years, most sound similar enough that choosing between them is an exercise of futility, particularly when put up against comparing cartridges where difference is usually obvious. These days my hearing is a bit wrecked from playing in bands so wouldn't bother experimenting with different players.
However, I bought a second hand Phillips back when these things had only been around a couple of years and it was bonkers compared with some of the others I heard. It was exhausting, the sound was so realistic and compelling that it wasn't much use for listening casually. I suppose it could be described as cold and brutal 😅
These days I have a s/h Marantz something or other with basic dac, its OK but I wish I still had the Phillips to have the occasional brain destruction session.
Enjoying the vids. Thanks.
Thank you for your kind words and also for your interesting contribution to the topic. I must admit that, if finances allow, keeping pieces of equipment when ‘upgrading’ can be very rewarding later on. It can increase the fun of the hobby and remind us that every choice is some kind of compromise. Enjoy the music
Harley, that's excellent work. I did the same thing about ten years ago when my NAD CD player started to fail. I had several DVD players, that no longer played DVDs due to weak lasers, three Sonys & a Panasonic. When compared at the analog outputs, the Panasonic DVD-A110 (with DVD Audio DACs) was the only one that matched the sound quality of the NAD. I still use it daily, it only plays pressed discs, so I have a Sony BDP-S3700 & Schiit Modi DAC for all other discs/formats. I'm not sure why but the 3700 plays scratched discs better than any of my other players!
Thanks Trevor! Technology can be unpredictable at times! Enjoy the music
The old masters Philips, Sony and teac-tascam are still superior to the new ones!
Very interesting and informative. Since I am older and have had CD players since the mid 80's (my first was a Philips) I have always told others that older CD players can sound just as good as modern players. I love that one of your listeners liked the vintage Philips the best. I am keeping my now older McIntosh MCD500 as it sounds great.
Thanks Dale. Indeed, if what you have sounds great and works just fine, why would anyone change?
Thank you Harley. I am a delighted to hear the results of your evaluations with friends and colleagues - not only because it was revealing, but also because it will likely save me a bunch of money. My CD section comes from an old OPPO BDP-83SE, which was released in 2009, but was used only a few times before I purchased it about a year ago. This is used Digital Out (bypassing the DAC) to the Digital In on a Devialet Expert 120 amplifier, which had a great DAC in its day. What your research tells me is that I would have to spend a lot to improve on what I have (which I would not like to do as I love being married more than owning hifi!). Regards from Perth, Australia. Derek
You’re very welcome Derek. Indeed, keep your marriage and your existing HiFi! 😀
Hi Derek. I use exactly the same Oppo player as a transport with a slight wrinkle. I purchased a little Chinese box for about £50 which strips the audio stream from the hdmi out and converts it to I2S via hdmi, which then plugs into my Denafrips Terminator Plus dac. The sound is great, and the bonus is that it allows me to output the DSD stream to the dac and play SACDs via the DACs' superior processing. I just checked, and it also has optical and coaxial outs, though I'm not sure if it will output DSD via coaxial. Don't see why not, though. That Oppo is a lovely player. Real shame they got out of the Bluray business.
@@jimfarrell4635 Hi Jim. This is wonderful information! I've been looking for a way to play SACDs. The problem is that there is no input to use on the Devialet. What I have as a link is a Cambridge Audio CXN 2 streamer/DAC. What is the name of the "little Chinese box" and do you have any links or advice on how to connect this? Many thanks. Regards from Perth, Derek
@Derek Cohen Hi Derek. I had a look for the name on it and couldn't find it. I will check ebay. So does that mean you are effectively using the DAC in the Cambridge ? If so you would need to check if it can handle DSD via the digital inputs. I will get back shortly with the name of the wee black box.
@@jimfarrell4635 Jim, the OPPO is connected to the Devialet, but only plays CD not SACD. How do I get SACD to the Devialet? Neither the Devialet nor Cambridge have HDMI, only Toslink and Coaxial. Regards from Perth, Derek
That was a very well done test... Also tracks with my personal experience. When I got my first stand-alone DAC (Schiit Modi3), I compared the sound of several old CD players and DVD players with digital outputs that I dug out of my garage and found they all sound the same when listening through the DAC although I thought I heard differences when comparing the analog outputs. I preferred the Modi DAC over the analog outputs of all but one of the CD players... A Rotel RCD 950, which was the first one I ever bought. Maybe that's a good one to add to the list.
Thanks Kevin. Rotel were certainly known for their quality products
Trust your ears!
Fantastic research Harley - many thanks. Why not do a part 4 and compare CD via DAC with streaming via same DAC at CD quality say from Tidal or Qobuz using the same people and method?
Thanks for your appreciation. Good idea… I have noticed a difference doing just that (but only on my own). There did seem to be some differences, I even tried playing the CD of the streamed piece too, also through the same DAC. My gut feeling is that the difference could be down to some kind of compression or delivery from the streaming companies. For example ‘Tidal’ didn’t sound as good to me as ‘Qobuz’ on some tracks. But don’t take this too literally at this stage, I do need to do more research. For example, how do we know that each streaming company is playing the exact same source material? It could be mastered differently?
@@PearlAcoustics Hmmmmm 🤔- sounds like an interesting bit of follow up research. I have Tidal streaming through a Naim Uniti Atom and it sounds pretty amazing. I've not tried any comparisons with CD as yet, partly due to the faff of level matching it exactly, and partly as you say, are you listening to the same master? It would certainly be good to find out what your panel conclude about the comparisons though. Thanks again Harley for the brilliant content on your channel - I get giddy every time there's a new episode. 🤣
@@Phil_f8andbethere 😀
I think it is well know by now that CD sounds far more superior than any streaming service.
@@mornecoetzee735 Interesting 🤔