When HI-RES AUDIO can't compete with VINYL...
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2023
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The older I get, the fewer fucks I give about the format my music is on. I just like to just listen to the damn music and forget about the equipment. A good song is a good song, whether played from a vinyl record or a CD on my hifi system, a "hi res" stream through headphones or my studio monitors or via bluetooth on a mono JBL speaker.
Edit: grammar.
That’s my memory of the 70s. Records, cassette, 8 track, reel to reel, radio…it was just about the music, not this modern format fan boy bollocks!
I’m the same as you. I used to be sucked in with gear and the format. Now I couldn’t give two rats about it. Just play the music and be done with it.
*fewer fucks, not less 👍
I don’t give much about format, but stereo versus mono and dynamic range is a big deal. And yes, good music is still good music on a simple Bluetooth speaker, but more enjoyable on better equipment.
You've got it right brother.
Music enthusiasts use audio hardware to listen to music.
Audiophiles use music to listen to audio hardware.
I know which camp I fall into.
What a ridiculous situation. One of the touted benefits of CD upon its introduction was the wide dynamic range available from 16-bit digital. Now we have 24-bit and the dynamics are squashed more than they were on cassette tape releases. Just stupid.
Yeah, disgusting people making mixing and mastering decisions to destroy generations of art.
Sometimes you can get decent mastering by purchasing old CDs but often you're screwed.
People are too lazy to use the volume control today.
I think the real problem is that DR scores are not required to be printed on labeling. As soon as this happened it would force people to understand this measurement more and at the same time make the record labels and artists more keen to optimize the value.
The problem is a digital audio workstation vst (plugin) called the "Maxamizer" which you set all upper level for and then raise the quieter part of the signal. This is how dynamic range gets squashed. Unfortunately, for the average person that doesn't have any idea what good dynamic range can sound like, louder is always better.
Sounds like the loudness war, but with extra steps.
I'm glad someone in the UA-cam/Influencer age with a big platform is finally talking about dynamic range compression. Those of us who were veterans of The Loudness Wars from back in the 2000s have discussed this topic (and its negative impact on music quality) for years. I acknowledge that all things being equal (e.g. identical master) I would always choose a high res lossless (or even 16/44) file over vinyl. Vinyl has less overall dynamic range capability than 16/44 or higher, is subject to wear and tear over time, hiss and pops, etc. But we almost never get the same mastering (aka not overcompressed) file. So I accept the weakness of vinyl to get the better mastered music, especially if the digital file is clearly overcompressed. BTW another reason to crush dynamic range for digital files is the thought that people use those files "on the go" so it has to sound good in the car (road noise), on the go (city/street noise) all of which can make the quieter parts of songs inaudible. So to fight that they boost up the quieter parts. The assumption is: if you're listening to vinyl, you're in a controlled environment and really listening to the music for best quality. Also, if you master a record too loud, it risks having the needle jump the groove. In an ideal world, we'd get the final approved master from the band and its mixer and engineer, and have that put on high res lossless and call it a day. But we rarely ever get that.
And - you often get a beautiful jacket and artwork.
This is fast becoming my favourite channel. I love it when audiophile youtubers say stuff like "you need lossless 24-bit/192kHz audio through this $10k system so that you can really hear what the artist intended" when the reality is typically, at best, you are hearing what the mastering engineer intended, at worst what the record company instructed the mastering engineer to do. It would be interesting to hear from somebody in the business regarding their views on how vinyl mastering differs from mass market digital mastering.
Agree with many of the comments. Lived through the late fifties era and the 60s into the 70s just enjoying LPs and singles on an auto exchange record player. I am 72 and been into hifi since got a full time job in the 70s. Have chased through that time to get listening perfection but for me never had that until CDs entered the market. A Rega Planar 2 was my final turntable and have never bothered with vinyl again. A friend had a superb set up with Quad speakers and a Linn Sondek LP3? A soon as he had bought the 1st Philips CD player, the CD100 I think, he couldn’t wait to bring it round for me to hear it! That was the end of vinyl for him too.
I now only listen to Amazon Music via Shure KSE 1200 electrostatic earphones which give me the best musical experience I’ve ever had.
I love the whole process of playing a record.
this is why i still buy cd and vinyl and havent moved to streaming. i want quality over convenience. ive invested an ungodly amount into media, amps, speakers, treatment, cd players etc and refuse to eat shyte.
"When bad digital can't compete with VINYL..."
One thing JD forgot to mention. The original recording of this album is actually early digital, done at 16/44.1
Never Hi Res then?
Vinyl breaks down every time you listen to it. Dynamics are possible in digital world with a good mastering.
I learned more watching this video than I have in the last 3 years of listening to vinyl. Flawless. Sublime video
You hit the nail on the head. It all boils down to the mastering. If the mastering and EQ is the same for both, digital will win. I have different versions of famous albums. All the CD that were mastered in the late 80s and early 90s have much better dynamic range 12-15 (in my opinion just as good or better than vinyl) versus the newly "remastered" and botched releases that are very straining to listen to with DR of 4-8.
The only thing i could afford on your table is ..... the door stop 😂😂😂
We buy compressed audio because it is ahem... "louder". If we bought more audio with performance-level dynamic range, the producers would release it that way on digital.
"We have met the enemy and he is us"
I remember watching a movie in it's original language and having the reaction "wow it is far quieter than the dubbed version".
The sound was better, but it seems dubbed versions are also "quiet" nowadays so you have to rely on whatever sound system you're hostage to.
No need to for them to compete. One can have both.
Vinyl mastering engineers actually ask for the files supplied to have the least compression applied possible. It allows them to fit more music on the record, since they can make the track spacing narrower when it's quieter, and only wider in the loud parts where it's really needed. If only labels would also release the same less-compressed masters as high-res files...
Seems to me we have an amazing luxury of choosing between infinite streaming high quality music and the enjoyable quest to find a perfect vinyl recording. And I say to myself, what a wonderful world.
It's refreshing to hear someone in the audiophile community (aka you) discussing the enjoyment of the music and not just listening to the hardware. Too often people discuss the equipment and the not the enjoyment it provides. However there is a small elephant in the room - so to speak. While some vinyl cuts may have a better dynamic range and sound more natural, the cost of the hardware to listen to this music is significantly higher for vinyl than it is for digital.
I am fortunate enough to have heard some crazy expensive vinyl setups and while I have to admit they sound really good the cost is prohibitive. Similar musical enjoyment can be had from a digital setup at a fraction of the cost.
In the ideal world, it would be nice if the record companies could release an 'audiophile master' without dynamic compression so we could actually hear what it should sound like.....
The older I’ve become the less things I want to own in my life, owning lots of “things” just don’t do it for me anymore. Every thing gone and currently replaced by a Bluestone Powernode, Chord speaker cables and a set of KEF ls50 meta speakers which I love, it’s as good as I’ll ever need in my small home. Also the amount of new music I’ve found over the last couple of years of streaming is incredible
Very good point! It is a wonderland for music lovers! ✌️😎
Pre-1990 Vinyl is for deaf noobs.
Pre-1948 shellac is acceptable.
Pre-1900 wax cylinders: heaven.
My hearing has always been compromised, and music has always been my priority. Combine both and you get an a-audiophile.
Years on and the listening fatigue due to digital has compromised my hearing even more, way more.
To cut the long story short, when I listened to vinyl again in a used records shop I felt my ears were brought back to life..
I embraced the digital era, arms open wide and ditched the frustrating vinyl experience, and today is the opposite.
Therapeutical reasons, I guess because I got 2 choices: to stop listening to music for the rest of my life, or listening to music again in a format I got divorced from and now remarried so I can listen to music properly again.
Great video,, it encapsulates in comprehensible terms what digital audiophiles can't understand about analog formats, even if that took you hours to record, lol.
I could see the fumes coming out of your ears and nostrils.
The lengths we go to just to relax and listen to some music.
I think too much music today is being mastered for playback on mobile phones...through the crappy little built in speakers, because so many people DO listen to music that way. And those of us who listen to music on better playback devices, are effectively getting the short end of the stick.
@rebeccaschade3987
Back in the 60s Berry Gordy (Motown founder) deliberately reduced the quality of his “hit factory” releases (reduced DR, reduced bass, boosted midrange etc) in order to make them sound best on cheap portable transistor radios because he knew that’s how most of his target audience would hear them. And he was right - his “factory” became the most successful pop production company in that period. It’s the same thing now with smart phones - what goes around comes around😄
When I put some tubes in the path of my High Res Audio it sounds just as natural as vinyl. It smooths out any digital sheen, while retaining the musical information. No crackling :p Tubes will obfuscate any digital character.
You know, I'm beginning to see the light on a tube power amp for that very reason, just to smooth out as you say the sheen. There are just so many to choose from these days, which is a good thing but difficult to weed through.
You make a fascinating point! Last week I performed a live version of Rachmaninov symphony 2 under the baton of Andrew Litton and we worked very hard on dynamic range. I’ve also performed the same piece with other conductors and I can safely say that focusing energies on d.r. results in a massive impact on the audience satisfaction. In essence you’ve also inadvertently made a pro argument for live classical music. Just pop down to your local symphony orchestra.
I can see you worked really hard on this one, you’ve definitely made your point in a very clear manner, congrats as usual !!
I like the feel of records and their covers, I like turntables, i like how cartridges work, I like the process of playing a record, I like the sound of a lot of lps, not all. I like analog v digital.
The compression af the dynamic range of the music is because it sounds better on a car stereo. I was told this 25 years ago. At that time people even found that a copy of a CD to a casette tape for the car sounded better than a copy of a LP. A person named Garry Miller mentioned some of the same.
The loudness war has caused a post-1990 degradation on CD releases in terms of Dynamic Range (DR). It's no secret that many audiophiles seek older CD releases and avoid like the plague new remasterings. Vinyl is indeed more resilient to that trend.
Whether CD, hi-res or Vinyl, it really depends on which type of music fan you are. If you like me as an orchestra fan, I would choose CD and hi-res streaming as which are very similar to a real orchestra replay in a concert hall which has incredible depth in 3D sound stage and clarity. I will be very easy to identify the position and type of the musical instruments. Vinyl will not be able to achieve this. However if you are a solo piano, violin fan prefer small size instruments, Vinyl will be able to shine as it has more musical feeling and touches.
Vinyl can certainly achieve this however a quality setup could easily cost more than a cd transport. Most of my classical vinyl collection outshines cd versions but this wasn't the case until I upgraded my deck and cartridge more recently.
Streaming quality is getting very close and you do avoid surface noise in both steaming and cd however vinyl can still outshine based on the mastering source
Simple answer, vinyl feel soooo good holding it in your hands.
Just got back into vinyl and this is one of the most relevant and educational video's I have seen in providing a measurable understanding of the audio transfer between between analog to digital and back. Great description of testing process to avoid biased data interpretations. Just subscribed. Great work
I love how you are using talking heads music to discuss this issue. I remember listening to psycho killer on the radio when it was first released. It blew my mind. Changed my orientation to music forever. 46 years later and we're still enjoying that song. A lot of credit has to be given to Tina and that wonderful bass line.
When you did the DR analysis you were not comparing equivalent products. If the first release has only 8 tracks, you need to compare only those 8 tracks from other releases, not anymore since the additional tracks that are not present in the original may influence the average DR.
There’s a major problem in my opinion..
People are buying vinyl ( at premium prices) and playing it back on ..at best Mid Fi ..I mean the place that will sell you a $40 vinyl copy of Taylor Swifts’ new album ..will sell you a Crosley Portable record player to play it on 🤦♂️
Yes but the record might just last a lifetime and sound better with each hardware upgrade. Buy the best possible version (hopefully AAA) and move on. Buy a crappy pressing and it will always sound crappy, no matter what turntable or phonostage you pick up down the line.
A Crossley portable record player is very lo-fi .
Before having to put up with a plastic abomination with a ceramic cartridge, I'd rather just collect the vinyl because it has a big sleeve and looks cool and put it on the shelf, while playing back the digital version instead... that'll sound a lot better for sure. Most young folks these days should have decent digital playback facilities.
I think it's no coincidence that since about the '80s, the average consumer turntable has been mediocre-to-bad, and now these Crosley-Victorola things are cheap and abundant for those who just want to see the black circle spin and make a noise.... and the average comments against vinyl are about all the problems caused by bad equipment and record-handling. So now we've got people who only know what bad turntables and dirty records sound like, and they pretend like 'that's all there is to the subject' instead of avoiding the opportunity to say something laughable.
Since we are all in this hobbie for the love of music . I figured I’d start posting some great songs to enjoy..
Mingo Fishtrap- Not the Same
Jamie cullum- Lover, you should have come over
Lake street Dive- I want you back
Seth walker- I must be in a good place now
Fever - Ray Charles
It would be cool if everyone started putting some of there favorites out. Discovering new music is what has made the streaming algorithm so great.
Solution: make it mandatory for record labels to state the dynamic range of every track on the back cover of the CD and on the streaming service page, then hit them in the balls by refusing to buy any release with a dynamic range smaller than 12 dB.
Force the record labels to stop interfering with the mastering engineers and allow them to bring back the dynamics. Usually, every track release should be mastered in different versions: for vinyl recod, for CD, for streaming platforms and for promotional use (online or on the air).
not just a mastering stand point but a mixing stand point, true stereo microphone techniques were more common for vinyl because of how music fits in a single groove (ex: panning drums left / vocals right / bass center)...also from a mixing stand point todays modern digital music has too much AIR (high end freq boosting) = more sibilance and harshness and when that high end has less dynamic range (over-compressed) it really creates ear fatigue . Vinyl physically not having the high frequency content will make the music more enjoyably for longer periods of time. digital will always be a "higher quality" but that doesn't make it better. Modern music high end focus today vs older records more mid range focus and more awareness to true stereo mixing techniques plays a large part in what you're talking about.
For me, it’s not about the vinyl it’s about what’s on it, and I can safely say you can’t unscratch a vinyl record and if you have a favourite recording you frequently listen to either for enjoyment or as a musician to learn from it ( some of us still like to learn by ear) , it just can’t compete to a cd on either durability or price
I'll take the hi-res digital files every time. I did the record thing back in the '80s when it was the best low-cost source for music, but have since moved on to better and more convenient digital options, beginning with CDs after they became more affordable.
I think the real reason, why the dynamic range decreases from release to release is: It should sound good on any device, especially the cheap modern mass consumer devices and BT boom boxes which are not capable of handling a dynamic range of 14 or more.
There's a Wikipedia article about the Loudness War. Especially mechanic Instruments sound weird with to much compression. I like the digital domain for the details and fast impulses but dropped a lot of titles from my collection because of the gruesome compression. Dynamic compression may be useful in a car on a highway or on a construction site but not on a good stereo system in a quiet home. Record labels should let the stereo systems do the dynamic compression as only the stereo system can know the listening environment and the preferences of the listeners.
Or at least offer a natural edit with full dynamic range and a compressed loudness edit for loud environments.
And you should never use Wiki as any sort of source, as it can be written by anyone who has a verified account.
Love this. After reading nearly all of the thousand comments here, I'm happy to give my take. 59 years old with not-too-compromised ears. I like vinyl ONLY for those albums that my brain remembers from back in the '70's. Breakfast in America. Hotel California. Hot Streets. I know where every instrument and note "was" in the soundstage, as originally masteted and transferred in the very best way they could at the time. As for any other presentation - original CD, today's high-def, etc. - the specs are infinitely better. But to my brain, for those old albums, it simply sounds wrong, lol. Now as for that new Stones album, I'll enjoy it in the manner that it was just recorded, and it will a great musical experience as well. An old audiophile's "muscle memory" is what this conversation is really all about!
I own and run a record store, but I'm still mostly interested in original pressings of older recordings. That said, I do get excited about all analog, repress/remasters of classic albums, especially those that are hard to find, or were never released on vinyl.
Yep, I almost always try to buy originals.
the hi-res has more low and hi-frequency info which the DR program will add in as loudness (especially the bass) in the quiet parts and the dr meter is just giving you a measurement of the difference between the loudest and quietest parts of the track. like i've said before, it's not always about the numbers, sometimes you got to use your ears.
By the late 70s many - not all, but many, many, many - mastering facilities (at a time when vinyl was the mass market format!) had moved to using digital delay lines rather than tape preview heads. Ampex and other studio tape deck manufacturers really pushed this technology, and mastering facilities were quite enthusiastic adopters of digital (and quite low-bit at that!). So by the late 70s many - not all, but many, many, many - vinyl records in the marketplace were already digital in the final step, or AAD if you prefer. And that's before digital started to move into the studio setting for tracking with the early machines from Sony, Mitsubishi, etc. in the 1980s, and before ProTools etc. arrive in the 1990s.
I've heard about the 12-bit delay being a thing, but I have yet to hear exactly how widespread the usage of it really was, because I've heard at least one vinyl-mastering engineer who worked in the '70s and '80s say he never saw or heard of anyone using it in his company, and didn't know who did otherwise. I think it was the English guy who makes videos with titles like 'vinyl is coming back and it's so wrong on so many levels'. He explains things well but I hate the clickbait and he comes off strangely snarky in comments.
I'm pretty sure the whole audio chain was analogue until at least the mid-1980's. Stereo masters were mixed onto analogue Ampex and Studer two track machines, and it was those that were delivered to mastering engineers. All the eq's and compressors that were then used were all analogue too. There were outlier digital recordings made in the early 1980's, but as a working studio musician in London the first time I started seeing digital tape machines was around 1988/89 and that was for specialist, big budget albums. Most people were still recording to tape on analogue machines. A few pioneers started using pro-tools around 1990, but when I bought my first system in 1992 it was still quite basic and very expensive.
@@MrChrisWhitten I think maybe you misunderstood the original comment you’re responding too - he’s not talking about digital in the studio he’s talking about in the pressing plant I think ?
You're spot on with this. DR is considered the most important parameter in assessing the remastering of a recording by most audiophiles.
if you like wow - if you like flutter - if you like second order harmonic distortion - if you like ticks and pops - if you like limited dynamics - then records are definitely your medium of choice
Thank you so much for sharing this kind of thoughts, too - not just reviews and comparisons. It makes a lot of sense to all of us, active listeners of digital audio formats and vynil.
Even though you're measuring the DR of the entire vinyl playback chain there's no way that chain can add DR.
AND.... that's what's actually making its way to our ears.... so I don't know what the original complaint really is about.
Most likely true for quality equipment. If the signal chain affect the DR in any way it will rather be that it slightly reduce the DR (due to clipping/distortion).
I am always super surprised how much I really enjoy well made vinyl that is cut from digital files. Michael Fremer says as much in his MoFi/Music Direct tour video. At the end of the day, it’s all about the chain of mastering and manufacturing and the end users equipment. Great video!
With modern vinyl cutting, I find the 4kHz range needs adding or removing. With one beautiful pressing I have to add 9dbB to equalise it. Apparently this has to do with the natural resonance of the mass of the cutting head which apparently needs constant monitoring and compensating for during cutting. This information comes from an old boy who still works in high end studio gear. He also told me that
Another great video, and the other video was very interesting. I've subscribed already as I do like your outlook - I'm guessing there are always a loy of outtakes 😁
The "problem" with audible gains made in dynamic range using vinyl, is that you immediately lose that gain advantage by all the noise inherently in vinyl - pops, crackles, humming. Having grown up with vinyl in the 80s, it took me ages to transition to CD, and when I made my first CD purchase (REM automatic for the people) I was just blown away by the sheer clarity and purity of the sound...I was an instant convert overnight and sold almost all my vinyl and began the arduous journey of replacing with CD. I went through exactly the same process with streaming about 10 or so years ago, having already begun dipping my toe in, ripping my CD collection onto a server and thinking "why would I need to pay for a streaming service"...but then, having gradually got used to spotify and then the higher res Tidal, I cannot imagine listening to music any other way. The sheer amount of artists Ive discovered just leaving the player running after an album finishes and does its own thing, is just wonderful. The ability to easily make playlists for a specific social occasion, a dinner party, or just to share with close pals...brilliant! The absolute joyous fun and laughter me and my pals have when they come over, chatting about music and us all pinging our favourites in turns to the streamer or new artists we've found! I still sit and listen critically and focussed to my music as its one of my main loves in life, but I feel completely liberated by streaming now and don't miss vinyl in the slightest. If I want to listen to a record AND read the sleeve details, I can do that easily online. I really don't miss having a physical "thing" in my hands, and I can't help feel that my past vinyl addiction had far more to do with collecting trophies than it did the music itself. It was an attachment to a thing, and that thing (my collection) was part of my identity. I'm glad I let go! All that vinyl space has been replaced by books :)
Why not eBooks?
@@phonomat1587Haha that was exactly my thought 😂
A maintained turntable/records don't exhibit noise like you describe.
With streaming you get a black or silver box with a screen and maybe a led light or two.
Record albums often come with a big beautiful cover and artwork.
With remastered music from the past and newer music you get a compressed audio experience on digital.
Actually quite a fascinating listen, thank you for sharing the knowledge.
I really enjoyed your enthusiasm when you put these three videos out. I got excited to hear the new vinyl. There was a mishandling with my regular store and my reserved copy was sold. I could not find them online and was fortunate to find one copy locally at another store. Thankfully they held it for me. I watched the movie in imax. It was a fun time. I have to say however, after digging for the album tonight with my terrible organization that streaming is better. In the fact I can just play it and not spend ten minutes looking for it. All seriousness though, that album issue is great. John thanks for the content and awesome entertainment.
Its also bands and producers and engineers. Ive spent decades making records and almost anytime you delever even a rough mix to a ckient, they want it louder. The rough unfinished mix needs to conpete with polished, mastered tracks.
I talk and rant about this all the time, but NO ONE is willing to let dynamics exist anymore. It bums me out.
Records are just nicer !
I use streaming !
I like my cds !
I love my records !
Yes indeed a time and place for all formats. At home I usually have vinyl in my car that’s a different but equally satisfying format. Life without music isn’t life at all.
Wow! That's really interesting to know. I've always felt that original recordings were preferable to Re-mastered versions, and now I know why. Your herculean efforts to investigate and explain this phenomenon are really appreciated. Thx.
Great subject to dive into John! In the end, the engineer and producer (and sometimes the artist) have a lot more to do with sound quality than the format. Analog tape and vinyl both have pretty severe limitations that never-the-less can deliver great musical enjoyment, Modern vinyl is so expensive that I think the engineers are extra careful to get the best result. Digital (especially hi-res) is capable of capturing live sound without limitation, but that is almost never what we get.
There are different kinds of compression used depending on the medium. A very compressed recording (average loud level) really eats up playing time on an LP, but peak limiting is very important to not overload the cutting head and cause tracking problems. As noted, deep bass is mono on vinyl and is rolled off pretty steeply below 40 or 50 Hz to save space and prevent tracking problems.
In the days when vinyl was the only choice, the sound and the quality was overall very poor. The discs were thin and usually warped (causing warp wow when played) and usually incorporated reground vinyl (old records that didn't sell, ground up paper labels and all). The most common customer complaint was 'skipping' usually caused by using really cheap crappy turntables and ceramic cartridges. Customers returned records and demanded their money back. For this reason, dynamic range and frequency response were usually purposely severely reduced compared to the master tape. 45RPM singles (used in jukeboxes) were especially bad sounding. These were considered disposable. 33RPM LPs weren't much better with a few exceptions. Big selling albums would require multiple pressing dies (stampers), each one a little worse as the mother wore out, and these dies would be used well past their prime to get the required million discs for sale.
Today's vinyl is usually heavy 180g virgin vinyl pressed using long heating/cooling cycles to get beautiful quiet surfaces. I think it also assumed that even modestly priced turntables are very capable these days and the resulting LP can be a bit closer to the master tape. BTW, using a digital master allows the engineer to 'know what's coming' to the cutting head with the benefit that the levels can be pushed a little higher without risk of unintended distortion.
Followers should check out: dynamicrangeday.co.uk/ This group is dedicated to ending the 'loudness war'.
The limitations of analog followed, insures at least good sound, and with skill, great sound. Your digital can be done easily by keyboard warriors with high amounts of technology who never were taught how to make a basic Stereo, 3 microphone recording of a live Jazz or Classical ensemble. I know how to do this properly.
So limitations of vinyl format don't allow publishers to enforce that crazy level of dynamic compression that they want and that can be reached with digital formats, and that spoils perception of music more than imperfections and limitations of vinyl media. Totally works for me! :)
Two days before my son sent me the link to this post, I watched a movie from 1946, Two Sisters From Boston. In the film, there is a scene where Lauritz Melchior records Prize Song from Die Meistersinger. When he finishes he has the following exchange with a record company exec. You can find the clip online.
Record exec: You wasn’t loud enough. People don’t want records that they have to listen to.
Melchior: But it is the right rendition of the aria Mr. Gibson.
Record exec: Who cares about the song. It’s the phenomenon. That’s what the people want. It’s the noise that comes out of the box.
Very interesting John. Thank you for this as I think this may have just tipped the balance on the decision I’ve been pondering about buying another turn table after all these years (oh and I also bought a CD player too recently, but that’s another story …). Personally I think your observations are perfectly valid - First, whether or not the software is ‘accurate’ one would assume it’s results are at least consistent and so the comparative differences between each recording analysis seems fair and objective. Second, even if it is correct that your vinyl rips take into account the various components in the signal chain, the fact remains that this is how much dynamic range your signal chain was able to give you. So even if say a lesser cartridge might give someone lesser dynamic range than yours, at least the same vinyl pressing is capable of producing that much dynamic range for you, and perhaps even more with other equipment.
For me however the factor that has got me seriously considering adding vinyl to my system is seeing just how much fun everyone has been having playing around with a crappy cheap turntable that someone gave my wife - even my 18 year old daughter who got some £1 vinyl 7” singles from Santa to mess around with this year!
The compression process can also work the other way. The tubular bells at end of the first side of Mike Oldfield’s album were recorded using a claw hammer rather than the standard mallet to give them a brighter, louder, ringing sound. The problem was that they had to be reduced in volume when it came to the tape for cutting the master lacquer as otherwise the huge increase in volume towards the end of the side would have caused heavy distortion, or even the stylus on some decks to jump out of the groove.
When it came to producing (I think) the SACD version they were able to restore the original dynamic range.
It would be interesting to know roughly how many LPs cut nowadays use a less compressed digital master than for the streaming/download version. I think it’s correct that dynamic range can make a difference (though not always) but how often are there the kinds of differences noted with this recent edition of “Stop Making Sense”? It’s a good point but to what extent can one extrapolate?
Old AAD CDs have note tonal color of instruments. In other words they sound closer to the real thing. I have around 50 or more remasterd CDs along with the originals. In EVERY case the original has more tonal color. Every single one of them
Wow, lots of outtakes at the end. You are very patient!
I have not listened to any modern vinyl, as I have not had a turntable set up for ages. I still have my old record albums from the 1970s-late 1990s, when I started to only purchase CDs, and I remember hearing a distinct difference in sound quality on vinyl when purchasing discs from notably high quality vinyl producers who also used top quality master recordings for source material (Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab, Sheffield Lab, Direct-Disk Labs, etc), as compared to the standard issue vinyl from CBS, etc.
As far as dynamic range goes, I think the big selling point of greater dynamic range for CDs was really because they had a much lower noise floor than vinyl did. Yes, CD could also have a higher end as well (due to the limitations caused by groove tracking of high level signals by the cartridge), but I think the bigger impact was the lower noise floor.
But the bottom line is that the source material (master) used to produce the media is the ultimate decider. Garbage in, garbage out! With the advent of higher quality digital recordings, it reflected badly on recording engineers who did a bad job of mastering the original music, so they needed to up their game.
Exactly.
CD's are capable of somewhere around 90 db dynamic range.
Loudness Wars reversed all the benefits of that DR for a low noise floor and high output. Which often ruins the listening experience with fatigue.
Although and honestly, natural music DR in itself can be fatiguing to listen to in a home environment on a consistent basis.
What is a useful option that streaming does offer is an adjustable DR compression for late night listening.
I Like the bloopers at the end, lol. You have made me rethink keeping some of the Vinyl Rips I have "found online" vs other digital sources.
CDs 4 life
Great vid and a necessary follow-up from the first one - thanks. The answer to 'why are the digitals mastered with less dynamic range?' To me, likely to be the fact that individual digital tracks could be competing with other individual tracks within PLAYLISTS. However, on Vinyl, the format is only competing with itself for a 20min period of intentional listening of each SIDE... so it could/should have whatever dynamic range it likes... without the competition track-to-track that digital playlists could bring up.
If dynamic range is the primary difference between vinyl and digital files, that is not due to limitations of the digital format but rather decisions made when doing the remastering. Digital files, especially high-res, are capable of much greater dynamic range than vinyl.
It is very true. Technically digital is far superior. Although modern vinyl records are capable of handling 90dB in dynamic range and 20-40kHz frequency response without a problem and most audio is not going to exceed these except for a handful of orchestral recordings. Many records have a cleaner master and playing vinyl has visual cues too which adds to the psychological factor of listening to music (that many people tend to ignore). I personally listen to vinyl AND digital for this reason but would be easier to have only digital.
YES! Excited for that podcast conversation. Sometimes videos like this are so I don't have to repeat myself and just point to a direction.
Interesting video, very well done. I saw this concert and it was fabulous and strangely enough the sound was one of the best and balanced live performances I have ever heard.
I really enjoyed your analysis of DR and how it compares between vinyl and digital formats. I can tell you, however, that the only real reason I buy vinyl is because I love the physical, tangible nature of vinyl.
For all intents and purposes, my music needs "for work" as a DJ are focused around the latest digital performance equipment that I rely on when playing on stage, so my vinyl collection is about 85-90% "for pleasure" and, to be frank, it's more about escaping digital fatigue for me. It's the same reason I buy video games on physical media and, when my budget allows for it, I prefer to pick up physical copies of my favorite movies. My profession likely makes my relationship with music more of an outlier than the average person, but it definitely affords me a certain level of awareness around the "why" of my vinyl habits.
I think your analysis is spot-on but, respectfully, I think the attraction to physical media and the effects of digital fatigue are grossly underplayed (no pun intended) within the 21st-century vinyl community. That said, whatever the reason for each individual's format preferences, I appreciate videos like this that offer a different way to approach a nuanced conversation.
I don't listen to hi res, so for me the question is Why would i buy the new release when i have an original? Answer is that in the majority of cases i find modern remasters inferior to original releases. There are exceptions of course, but when the original already sounds great why bother? Yes there are extra tracks in some cases but that's not a deal breaker for me.
Between 1984 and now this album has doubled in length. Also, the 1999 cd with 16 tracks has less dynamic range than the 18 track 2023 vinyl.
So at least for this one title it's worth the trouble.
The video was very interesting but the thing that I took away from it was, subjectivity is everything. Personally, I prefer the sound of vinyl over the clinical sound of digital recordings. Obviously there is an element of nostalgia, owning the physical disc etc. but if it sounds better to me, that's what matters. To use an analogy, I don't like strong coffee, in fact I drink cheap instant coffee. A colleague at work insisted that my coffee was rubbish and his ground coffee was far better quality. I didn't like the taste of his ground coffee so, from my perspective, his coffee was rubbish.
I'm 52 years old. I started listening to records and cassettes, then moved onto CDs, which were a gamechanger. I had a iPod Classic for a while. Now I only listen to hi-res streaming. When you read about the mastering compromises required to get modern music onto vinyl, I don't know why anyone would bother.
But the album's themselves were recorded and mastered in digital since the 80's
But 24bit masters.
@@Coneman3 What's the real difference in terms of audio?
I'd like to see more reviews/discussions of vinyl records from you. Your perspective would be a very fresh one in the vinyl record collecting community, something that is very badly needed.
Just got a good pre-amp running my 80s Technics record player on my Pioneer surround system and holy crap... the clarity and bass is astounding. So cool watching it spin away as I relax.
Thanks as always! Oh and Thanks for the outtakes! Great to see beyond your beautifully edited video that you're a human too!
In other words, it is nothing to do, per se, with the vinyl format's capacities - except possibly the softening - or warming (but nevertheless, distorting) effect of vinyl that is preferred by most listeners. Surely where the whole process is digital, there are no limitations regarding dynamic range or the degree of compression. Only the dictates of fashion and preferences. The 'authentic' dynamic range (for classical music, especially) was one of the main selling points of the digital format when the 44.1kHz 16 bit specification was introduced. For the audio CD, it was around 96dB compared to vinyl's maximum somewhere in the mid 70's decibels.
Maybe the reason why, counter to all logical expectation, some vinyl remasters have a higher dynamic range than their high resolution digital counterparts is all due to demand: the vinyl customer will, on average, be using better Hi Fi than the average digital listener, so it's worth maximizing the dynamic range (as far as vinyl allows).
Ironic - digital reproduction blew open the doors where dynamic range was concerned, but now 40 years later, most stuff is put out with pitiful dynamic ranges - lower than analogue was even before then - compressed to high heaven
To me, I love vinyl for all the reasons mentioned, but also: pure enjoyment, fun to play, nice to care for the record, and the sound quality most often. How does the DR14 original CD sound compared to the rip?
Hi. ¡Excellent video! As I understand, it’s not the turntable that is adding dynamic range. It is that the recording itself, mastered as a vinyl record, is more dynamic than the other formats. On the other hand, I remember you use to have, or used at one time, PS Audio’s NuWave converter. If possible, and if your memory of it can help, how would you rate that one with the E1DA Cosmos? I am looking for a way to rip many of my LPs into digital.
This is the kind of content that keeps me coming back. Thank you!
When I was into collecting physical media, it was never about the quality. I wasn't sitting there, melting in my couch with a glass of wine thinking "listen to THOSE freqnecies" or whatever. It was just a hobby to have a physical library of... stuff. Usually I had some sort of sub-par system and I bought the cheapest vinyls on Discogs in bulk. It was just different from having a Spotify-playlist. If I had really been interested inhigh-quality audio I would have simply gone to high-resolution flie formats, i would have never been able to tell the difference between digital and analogue at that level (except if a different mix is used).
Superb video. You hit on all the points I thought were missing from the previous Stop Making Sense video. I am not the utmost authority on audio but I am pretty savvy... and I must say that your description in this video aligns 100% with my understanding. I look forward to hearing the interview with PBTHAL.
Loved your video and the assessments you made, thanks! 👍
Loved the bloopers! I often talk that way when not on video!
We past the point where theres any perceptible difference in audio decades ago. Anything beyond then is actually introducing distortion or colour that people subjectively think are better somehow.
1988 was the time masters went to DAT tape in Australia and records started sounding bad. In America it is around 1982 for digital mastering. There are some rare exceptions of nice sounding records after these times
this is awesome !!! thanks for the clever analysis !
Hello Mr Darko, following your youtube channel I have learned so much about how in the world you can play music in a better and different way, I would love to hear more from you about the dynamic range compression, thank you!
Perhaps you get that extra DR from the crackles and pops ? :)
Are you accounting for secondary, tertiary, etc, harmonic distortion? To me, the added junk from vinyl (e,g.rumble) will produce the extended range that the measurement device reported.
Phono preamps like ifi phono will filter out rumble.
@@dextercool You can't filter out rumble without also filtering out bass.
I started re-collecting records due to the fatigue of listening to all downloaded music and the effort to download, move, and label said digital music. I find that my ears appreciate the softer, warmth of records, reel to reel, and cassettes even. I don't mind the ritual of puking physical music or of it's sleeve, wiping it down, threading the tape, or even cleaning it, to get that subjective more pleasant sound to my ears. Your explanation, makes a lot of sense to why i prefer records to digital. Basically, it comes down to, it was recorded better. Other efforts to record on a vinyl record, make for a better experience. Sure digital may be more "accurate", but analog it the way we experience, without the frequencies removed, music in real time from real instruments. These days, I've taken to spending a little more on records to get better quality, and it's led to some real fun albums to listen to. Next stop for me is a sonic cleaner and then in the new year make my way through the ritual of the whole collection. I'm expecting good results.
Quite insightful analysis on different editions of an album… as well as enlightening reflection on the Joy of listening to Vinyl 🤟🏼🙌🏼
Digital or vinyl, remastered & manipulated or not remastered, with aging your hearing will change. Exposure to sounds will shape your final experience of what you actually hear. Fact of life. Just appreciate the music whatever the format while you can.
It's later than you think
@@andyscuffmaybe not. 20year vs 40ys vs 60yrs have significant different hearing experience due to the degradation of certain frequency hearing with the use of ears in daily life. Sad reality but just like machines we degrade.
I have a problem with streaming these days. Many albums that were available aren’t anymore. Sometimes they remove access of 2/3 of the album and only two tracks are available. Why « Sonno » from Alessandro Cortini is no more accessible? I bought the album years ago but removing music from the platform happens too often
That is another huge problem with digital files, in addition to the flatness and digital artifacts (which the average person doesn't even seem to notice because 'digital is perfect' in their minds), the inconsistency and sometimes borderline-criminal behavior by distributors, like Google Play. They only sold music for a few years before 'rolling' it into UA-cam Music, but I bought like $200 worth of music off GP and within a month of my last purchase, they sent a notification saying I had 30 days to download my music purchases or they'd be gone forever, and they've just made it an absolute mess trying to accomplish that. Among other things, I bought from them a copy of 'Changesbowie' which cost $12 for solely music, and genuinely sounds far worse than my cassette tape of the same, and not even in the ballpark of CD quality. I'll just say I'm going to get my money's worth from these MF's one way or another.
What I truly enjoyed in the last 2 videos is your demonstration that the key is mastering quality. Thanks for that. At the same time, dynamic range is NOT the only factor. Agreed that the loudness war leaves us poorer in sound quality. However, depending on what you are listening to, HI RES files played from a good source (streaming has it's own problems with jitters, internet quality, EM noise, etc.) may provide the best format...if the mastering (or remastering) is of high quality. How to rate and evaluate quality mastering is therefore the true test, not the medium itself (Vinyl or Digital).
Fascinating!