The Most Profound Moment in Gaming: MGS2 AI Conversation Analysis Part 2 of 2
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- Опубліковано 19 вер 2024
- Part 1 : • The Most Profound Mome...
This is my brief analysis of what most people would agree is the most profound moment in gaming: the final conversation that Raiden has with the Patriot AI at the end of Metal Gear Solid 2. It really speaks volumes to a number of topics in Philosophy, Psychology, Sociology, Ethics, and Science. But perhaps most importantly is that it presents one of the best arguments for control of the human race by AI, something most science fiction stories never even attempt to do.
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If you'd like to just view the AI Conversation itself you can find it here:
(Part 1) • Video
(Part 2) • Video
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Re-Uploaded version with slightly better voice track and minor editing changes. All game footage is used for commentary purposes.
“Our beloved monsters. Enjoy yourselves.”
I swear, that line feels like it’s meant for us.
It is.
I love philosophical talks such as this. It's a big reason I like mgs as a whole. The ideologies and social commentaries are presented in a very interesting way.
looking back at that ending, I can easily see why people think Raiden was in a VR simulation for the entirety of the game.
ArsenalGear crashes into the city, Solidus and Raiden have a sword fight and then Snake and Raiden have a conversation in the middle of the street still wearing sneaking suits and wielding guns and swords... but not one person shows them any attention.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Raiden and, by extension, the player wants to believe that they have won and that they are now free from AI control. they want it so much that they're willing to ignore the obvious discrepancies in their environment.
You should watch my videos on the themes of MGS2, I talk about this.
LogosSteve
NO! 😲
😄 just kidding. I'll check it out
U just blew my mind. *Matrix
And as you look closely at the back, Vamp is there walking on the streets.
I was 15 when I played this game for the first time. This conversation...actually the whole ending turned my whole virgin world upside down. An intense feeling i've never felt again since then and I fucking miss it :(
Meee toooooo
This is a remake I would pay for!!
Me too
I’m also 15 when I played this and this philosophical and political themes justvwent over my head
I was 14 and it was like 2 AM or 4 AM and it was a huge mind fuck back then and still a hell of a ride now.
the music, along with the philosophical dialogue, always creeps the shit outta me
When I played this game for the first time when I was a kid I didnt understand any bit of the AI conversation because it didnt make any since to me at the time. But now I'm 25 years old and I understand every bit of the AI conversation.
Same here. I was around 14-15 when I first checked out MGS, and the conversations were interesting, but I didn't fully appreciate or understand them until a decade later, when I started to see what those conversations were talking about. MGS2 was profound indeed...
Rose's subtitle 9:35 actually said "You have to beLIEve me" !!! The MGS games are terrific.
Find something worth to pass on... Even if reality is disheartening and ideals are flawed. I truly believe in the goodness of people to figure out what is right. This game will be one of my greatest inspirations.
Great message, and not even the only one. MGS2 is chock-full of themes, philosophies, and ideas.
@PhilosoMe play mgs3 and listen to the boss' speech at the end.
I've actually met him and tried to see if I could get an interview, he was on a tight schedule though so I couldn't really get him for a few minutes but he's a great guy and he actually seemed interested in talking about this role he did.
Someone has probably pointed this out already, but evolution doesn't mean improvement. This is a popular misconception. Evolution simply means change.
If you swap out evolution for improvement, by what metric are you measuring these things? It's going to be fundamentally subjective, no matter what you think of (because you, a human, are thinking of it). Including strictly quantitative stuff like 'continued existence of the human family tree' or 'maximum utilisation of nearby solar energy'. Ultimately an AI, whether a copy of the human brain in structure, or an original creation, will be coloured by human nature or human intentions, which are of course... subjective.
The argument that strong AI is suited to be world dictator based on their superior effectiveness at improving humanity is not tenable, because the idea of improvement is not natural, it is artificial (man made).
Personally I vehemently disagree with the statement that evolution means only change because it completely discounts the reality of the outcomes of all evolutionary systems we see today. Think the difference in matter arranged in the universe now compared to the big bang or the fact that humans eventually resulted from evolution or how much better our technology and computers are now and inevitably will be. If evolution only really meant and implied change none of the things I said would have happened, but they did. In fact just think about what adaptability could imply itself. The funny thing is that the arguments that evolution doesn't lead to increasing complexity or improved survivability always only cite specific examples and they never talk about the tendency of entire evolutionary systems. I mean the Law of Accelerating returns is a thing. I'm not saying I know the for sure better definition for evolution but I think it's very short-sighted to say the definition of change alone is enough to describe the reality. It's entirely possible that when an AI happens it'll be able to prove all sorts of laws of evolution that objectively justify it doing all sorts of thing, it's a possibility anyway.
And then on the other hand, ok, if you argue all morality is subjective in the first place (or that the idea of improvement is artificial anyway) what grounds do you have to argue against the still objective fact that a computer program can think faster and be more capable than a human being to fill in any kind of role involving reasoning? And still, I completely disagree that an AI will inherently be colored by human thinking at all. If it has no biological basis and if it self evolves (you know, like biological life) there's no reason to believe it'll be colored by us whatsoever or care about humans existing. How much do we care about the pre-life matter that birthed us? Or pre-human life? And finally the word artificial is ultimately a human-centric non-objective word itself. There are no rules that apply to the natural world that we are not part of or that the do not apply to us. So quite frankly, improvement is very natural. Again I'm not going to pretend I know the objective definition of the concept we consider improvement but it's too misguided to say it's inherently subjective. It doesn't have to fundamentally mean human or biological at all, and that's just the point. Maybe it's just inevitable.
LogosSteve
I'm only dealing with a human argument, the premise that an individual needs to be convinced personally that, from a rational perspective, AI dictatorship is preferable. It's not sufficient to say that 'I have more brain power than you, therefore I should control you'. If someone with an extremely high IQ or some other indicator of intelligence you find valid (again, subjective) told you to kill someone, you would acquiesce, /just/ because they are 'smart'? I doubt it.
Now, ignoring the argument, and simply considering possibilities, then sure it is quite possible that high intelligence entities could manipulate their way into physical dominance (much like humans have). This may be the 'natural order' of things, physically inevitable, having been replicated elsewhere in the universe. You might call this 'progress', slightly less neutral than 'evolution', but progress still isn't analogous to improvement, which is a value judgement.
BruceLeedar Accepting an argument from authority is still dumb. A reasonable AI could probably write everyone a dissertation to explain why it does anything, instantly, that would be iron clad, and that's far more likely than not. If there's one thing science seems to continuously remind us it's that everything we thought with guesses, value judgments, all subjective thinking can be demonstrated to be right or wrong based on facts.
The facts are, as we observe them today, evolutionary systems "increase in complexity" on the whole in outcomes we consider "progress." You can say that's still not objective but don't be so sure the objective explanation, which there will eventually be, isn't so different from that.
Evolution is the act of becoming better suited to exist at an optimal level in the environment you exist in. It is sort of an act of improvement, but one purely based in a subjective/specific environment.
evolution doesnt exist, everything has been getting worse since the creation. everything in the known universe trends toward entropy, nothing improves over time it just gets worse, it decays. humans lived for like 800 years in the beginning and over time the lifespans decreased. evolution is a satanic cult.
I commented this elsewhere but I wanted to share my opinions here too:
This cut scene makes me think a lot. About the truth behind free will, the capabilities of humanities, and extent of our ability to understand. Despite the overwhelming amount of information given, the most important thing, or to avoid contradicting myself, the easiest thing to interpret is the dangers of half truths. Interpreting something incompletely or only to fit one's needs is damaging to not only the growth of the person but society as a whole, and this type of mindset is everywhere. Despite people thinking that they are objective, media, organizations, and affinities they align with influence their decisions on what is they feel is important, without whole understanding what is presented. Even this behavior is present in interpretations of this scene, whether it be against political correctness, the belief that AI is vastly superior than human beings, or the presence of secret organizations in society. Doing exactly what they are preaching against incomplete interpretations. People chose what they deem to the most important to their point, mostly being the first 5 minutes of this sequence, only to present to their peers, with similar opinions, continuing to confide themselves in their gated communities. But what really made me think about this is what side is right in this conflict. Considering the context of this scene, the patriots thorough this game have been painted as the bad guys in this game, so should their speech be disregarded as radical nonsense and the AI gives this speech as their system is glitching out so is this the true intentions of the Patriots and an actual message from Kojima or just a glitch, or but with the proof of the patriots' presence and control throughout MGS, is it another example of our reality, our truth, not being true? Does it do this scene enough justice to put things into terms as basic as right and wrong, is it simply the AI's, a entity free from the detriment of emotions, observation of the flaws of humanity. However still the question must be asked for our simple interpretation of life, is complete freedom even attainable and is the method we do it correct. The AI criticized humans but AI, technology are only the extent of humanity, we build what we are able until we can make something greater to replace it. Humanity can adapt but at this moment most AI can only do what it is programmed to do. The Patriots' AI was built to analyze humanity the logical way, however that is only one way! Raiden asks a very good question that they do not answer, what defines what is the most important, does the one with the most results, however that is still only one way, there is still prevalence with emotion, feeling, and intuition. But we most remember the true context behind this information as this was created by men, incomplete creatures defined the AI and were influenced to created this analysis; however they could have made this as a critique for themselves as well. However in many was this analysis is incomplete and should not be considered the word of God. But there still is some truth to it, and it creates even more questions like is it even possible for humans to completely interpret information and what would be the result. Is Kojima telling us that it would create a superiority complex like the Patriots and their AI? Or is this whole wall of text just another half truth? Nobody truly knows but the men and women who created this themselves, however this may exercise one freedom we have. The freedom to interpret.
5:07
fission mailed !!
Dude you should analyze the part when Rose and Raiden talk. VERY IMPORTANT! :p
Their mentioning of free will was separate from their talking about self. They were illustrating the human ego, you don't have to be taught it, it just feels good when you're praised for doing things "by yourself" because we have things like self esteem that are based on if we're emotionally satisfied with ourselves. But of course we immediately dispense with that to try and blame other people if it helps us save face. It's just a crutch in a way to protect our self esteem.
To be fair, Snake only told Raiden to find SOMETHING to believe in, and find it for himself. When Raiden asked him what to believe in, Snake just told him that's his problem.
"Find something to believe in, and find it for yourself, and when you do, pass it on into the future."
"Believe in what?"
"That's your problem."
Snake only helped Raiden with the first step. What came afterwards was up to Raiden to figure out for himself.
In MGS4, Raiden chose the path of a soldier, even going as far as becoming a cyborg ninja. However Snake pulls a 180 and tells Raiden what he told him wasn't exactly what he meant. Snake was referring to passing on everything he learned as a child soldier to his family; making sure that his kids understood everything he went through so that his kids wouldn't have to go through the same trauma. A counter argument could be that Snake never knew Raiden would have a kid, but he still wanted the very best for Raiden and to settle his affairs with Rose.
"No. There are still some things you need to take care first... And people you need to talk to."
"I have no future. In a few months, i'm going to be a weapon of mass destruction. But you... You still have a family."
"You still have your youth. Don't waste it! You can start over again. I... We torn the world apart, made your life a living Hell. It's my duty... to put an end to all of this."
Snake wanted Raiden to have a life, something that a clone bred soldier could never have; he did try to live a normal life in Alaska, but he was called back out of retirement. As a clone bred specifically for war, Snake can never retire or find peace.
This was Snake's meme: a soldier fighting for a future completely freed from nuclear tyranny. Raiden's meme was to protect his family and fight for his right to live as his own person instead of a tool.
This is why I love MGS
Cesar Diaz Espinoza The conversation freaked me out...because it was true.
You cant find this level of awareness on any other game.
+Gray Fox This convo is the main reason I consider this game to be a masterpiece.
"Our beloved monsters. Enjoy Yourselves!" (As the AI looks directly at the player and breaks the fourth wall). Every time I play through this game that part gives me chills.
These games SUBTEXTS were what made it great, and not their front story.
I love the series as a whole but for a lot of the fans, lots of the subtext and messaging within each individual title is lost on them.
From a Subtext and message stand point, MGS2 still stands as one of the best in its series. but 3 over all as a game is the best one in my opinion.
No way man, MGS3 sucked and seemed like a cheap parody. MGS2 is the greatest game of all time.
i was 11 when i first played mgs2 when it came out, i was like " cool... let me fight solidus". ten years later i played it again and my respect for mgs2 went even higher after that convo. i understood a number of the concepts discussed on their own, but how Hideo carefully and meticulously arranged them together in a cerebral exercise to conclude this underrated or forgotten chapter of the series. thank you for this video, you explain this better than my efforts to get my roommates to like this
Wow I need to play this game again, it's amazing how different it seems as an adult, it makes a lot more sense now too.
Thank you UA-cam algorithms!
Ebert was definitely wrong about games not being art. I was a kid when this game came out and was completely blown away by just this section. It was probably this very conversation between Raiden and GW that got me into philosophical concepts.
It's a shame that people look at things without experiencing what it has to offer before judging it. This was my first entry into the Metal Gear/Kojima verse, and I had been hooked ever since. Love him or hate him, Kojima knows how to tell a story. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't directed a movie yet.
Thank you for going through this conversation so well. I am a huge supporter of MGS2 as the epitome of "art in video games" and have been making similar statements to yours to people I know who don't understand the medium past tetris/Angry Birds. Roger Ebert should be ashamed that he has never played Metal Gear Solid 2.
I dont agree with telling people what they can and cant give their attention to, but damn those AI are asking the real questions! "Does something like a self exist inside of you?" They're giving an Eckhart Tolle-style breakdown of how the ego, or "self" works within us. Didn't know this game went that deep.
Thank you for this. I played this game as a kid, and the ending melted my mind. I could not wrap my brain around that conversation and it left me speechless for the majority of the remaining day.
Watching it now, really brings back a lot of good memories about this game, and really helped me finally understand what was going on here.
THANK YOU!
@ThanklessExpediency Always glad to get someone else interested in MGS. It's definitely my favorite game series.
Yep this game was definitely intriguing to say the least.
Please continue to make content. This was a beautiful analysis
Gotta say, this whole 2 part vids was rather intriguing. Thanks for this educational lesson.
This was a turning point in gaming. Just as 'Man with a movie camera' and 'The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman' did for Film and literature respectively, being the first standout pioneers of postmodernism in their respective mediums, MGS2 was the first standout title to excersise the idea of postmodernisim and is still the greatest to date. Whereas games such as Spec Ops: The Line and Stanely Parable are also great examples, nothing I have seen has yet topped the majesty of MGS2.
I'm glad you mentioned Bunnyhops video man it's really interesting I watched it a few times in fact and I agree there's always that element of freedom of choice that Kojima gives the player so they can come up with their own theories. Also something to add to Rose's existence anyway is that she was a spy who completely changed the way she acted and looked to fit Raiden's interests so the persona of Rose is an illusion in more ways than one! Looking forward to how deep MGSV is going to be!
Sony should buy the MGS franchise from Konami and let Kojima develop a new MGS6. But wait, is that even my idea? Who’s controlling me?
Kojima should get lawyers to have the rights to MGS under the basis of intellectual property
Well here's a true test to this and it happened to me and many for some of you.
--- When the malfuntioning a.i colonel said - turn the game console off right now? Weird as this may be, it's actually true through the use of digitized information through human senses.
What i didn't expect was to see colonels face turned into a skull with the on-set of very weird calls, that... through fear and emotion consciously made me turn the console off as a young pre-teen. Does anyone follow?
Yeah, I took the game to my cousins house to play and got to this part and got kind of nervous thinking the console was going to break, we still laugh about it now but, it was a pretty chilling moment! I was about 14/15 at the time
I was more scared of the dam music playing in the background and me being completely defenseless running around with nothing, I did not want to die in this game, I didnt want Raiden to die, crazy now that I think about it.
I remember it was around 3am when I was traversing Arsenel butt naked. I was seriously got creeped out by the AI Colonel and the background music that I turned my PS2 off, went to bed and continued playing at noon when there already sunlight. Got genuinely scared lol
@paocomovo Absolutely, Snake in MGS2 is really when he hits his stride and finds his purpose in life. I get the feeling Kojima projected his own feelings onto Old Snake in MGS4 which changed Snake's character dramatically. Kojima was tired of being forced to do the franchise and felt like everyone was telling him what they wanted explained so he just did to get it over with, Snake reflects that.
The voice acting for Raiden though ... is what brings this down a few notches.
The character as a whole, really. He's such a weenie.
8 years have passed and this is still a big favorite of mine. Now I have to dig out my PSVita and replay all the MGS games I have on there.
Kojima's greatest genius in writing really IS making the Patriots in 2 do what we consider the wrong thing that isn't really wrong and for the right reason.(2 doesn't actually necessarily dispute this). That's what makes good villains and that's what I think will be remembered as his finest moment, not any of that easy "AIs being rational caused all these problems" narrative I really get the impression he was forced to take in 4.
You're correct. I wasn't clear in my original post. What I was referring to by taking it to it's "extreme" was what is often known as hard determinism, not simply determinism. There are those who ague that there is a form of determinism is compatible with free will; Compatibilism.
I do agree that by accepting science you are implicitly accepting some form of determinism. I'd argue that in theory you could predict virtually any event if you had a sufficient understanding of the forces of nature
You never realize how deep these Codec conversations are until now. When we were playing MGS2 in high school, all we cared about was the action. Now we understand all the cutscenes and codec conversations like this. Damn it's deep.
A shame games like this are rarely made these days if at all and crap like CoD is shoveled out every year.
Instead of playing the game... all the cutscenes have been made into movies on UA-cam... Just type Metal Gear Solid - The Movie into the search bar, on this.... Happy Hunting!
And well done again LogosSteve! Best youtube channel I've found yet, I think! Keep up the good work. Would love to see you do a piece on The Watchmen :)
This video reminds me of how affected I was by this game when I first played through it with my friends when I was ten or eleven. It really bonded us, I think, to have these insanely deep and interconnected concepts to discuss at such an early age. We definitely recognized how this game provided something that we weren't going to get out of elementary school. Unfortunately high school was also a massive let-down in that respect. MGS2 and Ender's Game made me want to change school for the youth.
The game MGS, the way it's played out, is the version Raiden plays for training. The incident at Shadow Moses did go down, but MGS2 plays the original game off as the actual simulation.
One of the best explanations for one of, if not, the best philosophies i've ever encountered. I applause this video
Weirdly enough, everytime just before Steve starts talking, the choir raises!
What a masterpiece MGS2 is. Everytime I get to the ending it blows my mind again and again
It's crazy to think that this game is now more than 10 years old, especially since the thematics within it still hold true today and probably will for decades to come.
It's truly a testament to how videogames can be more than just entertainment, that they can transcend even the greatest of books, films and music.
And the most important part of course is that it's still a fun game and experience.
thanks for the comment mate:)you're so right, i felt like raiden when i played the game especially when i came to this point, MGS series is an unbelievable gem
I've listened to this Codec conversation a million times and I still get chills everytime.
I was 12 when this game came out. I grew up with Hayter as solid snake. At 12 years old when I got to this part of the game it actually scared me. At first I thought someone seriously hacked into my ps2 somehow then I sat and listened to the whole thing. Crazy how I understood what it was getting at then and it has come to pass now... crazy....
Am I the only one who caught the word scramble "fission mailed" to not be so innocent? Its far more scary than I thought when I first played the game.. Think about it, Fission.. (nuclear reaction),.. Mailed (delivered).. Holy. Shit.
Shit indeed :O
10:31 thank you for acknowledging Twin Snakes and Portable Ops
WOW!! This video is amazing. I myself have put alot of thought into this conversation that takes place in MGS2.
I consider this video a great example of what youtube videos should be, entertaining and educational. You are a man I would love to hang out and chat with, especially regarding AI, which I don't know a lot about lol. I look forward to more of your uploads :)
This is a very well thought out and highly executed video. I hope you'll get to make more when you have the time.
So the F-C-C won't let me be or let me be me so let me see
They tried to shut me down on M-T-V
But it feels so empty without me
I don't understand this comment but I like it
Na na na na na
Na na na na na
Na na na na na
Na na na nyahh
get a clean shave
bathe
go to a rave
die from an overdose
and pick myself outta the grave
my middle finger won't go down
how do i wave?
and this is how im supposed to teach kids how to behave?
@@souparmsbarraza7206 Kids felling rebellious embarrassed there parents still listen to Elvis
I was 9 when I played this game. I remember being frightened by the philosophy. Also the skull face added extra creepiness to the mix. I had only a tenuous grasp of what they were talking about then but now it's much more interesting.
Now I’m sure you wear a mask because someone tells you to
@@omensoffate the only places I wore a mask for covid mandates was college because the only alternative was to drop out and there was no way I would do that so close to graduation. Not a sheep buddy. Got me all wrong.
Great videos man, part 1 and 2 were great. This reinvigorated my wanting to play through these again, Last time I played MGS2 was when I was like 11 years old. A lot of these concepts went right over my head, but I knew there was something there. I played it many times, and was upping the difficulty. Now I'm going to play to appreciate the ideas within the game. Thanks again for the videos they were great
I like the way the speech itself can apply to many characters in the game.
Individuals selectively develop convenient half-truths in order to make him/herself feel better or protect their own self-stem, the AI goes as far as saying there is no such thing as a "self".
Fortune could have died whenever she wanted, but she was feeling so much pity for herself that she never truly tried. Olga could have retired and live with her son, but she couldn't let go of the battlefield.
Raiden/the player.
Can you even argue against what the AIs were saying here? If an equally capable AI could take the place of our idiotic politicians I'd gladly allow it to stay in power. We do need a good filtering of useless information. If you think about it, even this statement that I just made is proof that someone like me will never be capable of free will. I liked the argument they made without even making a conscious attempt to debunk it because what they were saying was in my interests, it might as well have been a half-truth and I would have accepted it. So even even if someone could somehow prove that their arguments are wrong and full of crap, the bottom line remains the same. Humans are incapable of free will.
No one, but if there is, it's obviously screwing up. Also, "what if" gets us nowhere. Humanity has always thrived due to its ability to research. We looked at we had (at what obviously existed) and tried to look for ways to improve it. Leaving the fate of the world to some entity that may or may not exist seems incredibly passive and unwise. As long as this entity shows no signs of its existence we must move on as if it doesn't exist. To truly realize how wrong that mentality is apply it to law. Say that someone takes you to court and accuses you of stealing. HE is the one who must prove that you stole something first. Can you imagine what would happen if it was valid for him to say "he may or may not have stolen something, therefore there's a chance.
PSspecialist Your arguments make a lot of sense. It occurs to me that I'm dealing with a person who is able to exercise criticism in a fruitfull and not bad, egoistic way. I started to believe in this potentially unexistent entity and now I'm able to sleep much better at night and ,as it seems to me, posses the spiritual strength to deal with the daily shit that each and every one of us in a larger or a smaller degree encounters.
So, if someone were to take into consideration the myth of the first humans, namely Adam and Eve, and for goodness sakes I ain't no freaking creationist, one could come to the following conclusion: That dude(maybe he's not a dude, maybe he's a gal, maybe he's neutral like a hermaphrodite haha, no one knows)gave us a choice and that's to say, to choose. That's free will for you. Ignorance is a bliss and dumb people are ignorant people, and most of the time happier because they don't put their brains to work and have less worries. And if all people were subjected to this half truths of which the A.I. is speaking, they would be painlessly and efortlessly lead to the correct path of virtue, so to say. But,and god bless that god damn woman, Eva chose knowledge, of good and evil. Maybe she was tricked into it, but afterwards she was able to actually see the dangers and the adversities and the risks and uncertainties and so on and so forth. This means, by coming literally face to face with these horrors that make us tremble with fear and lose every inch of our courage, we realise how petty and weak we are and should we remain laid back on our asses we'll become food for beasts or get crushed by the allmighty forces of nature. That is called stress nowdays. The cranberries would call that animal instinct, I'd call it survival instinct. Some people handle this fear in a bad way, blaming God, their parents for bringing them in this world, being totally selfish and behaving like dicks, saying everything is pointless, this fucking game of life makes no sense, bla bla bla. They are more often than not miserable, unhappy and act in a such a way, in order to transfer this negative energy to others, so that they can feel happy about themselves, that also others can feel just as shity as they feel. This does not apply to all cases but people can be like that. And it sucks big time.
But there are is also another group of people , that no matter what never quit, never say, ok, that was it, done, no more. Pretty stubborn motherfuckers most times , they somehow overflow with positive energy and as soon as they interact with others, everything becomes a little bit brighter, like the world is not for this limited fragment of time , of which the interaction lasts, that of an awfull place to be.
The difference between these two people is first and foremost sense of responsibility.
More specifically the latter say more often it's my fault, put the blame on me, my wrong. Through the acknowledgement of their wrongdoing, they accept the flawed and imperfect character of their existence. And here it comes, they do something about it. They try as hard as their constricted and weak nature allows them to and fix stuff. They don't succeed at first try, neither at second. They fail again and again, untill they make it. They are the people who love the game itself, not the ones who are after immediate satisfaction of their desires. People that are up to the challenge, who find easy mode boring.
It is these very people who like facing off their worst enemy every day just to see him beg for mercy, themselves. It is these very people who say to themselves, either I'm responsible for nothing and for that reason I should accept everything as it is, good or bad, or I'm responsible for everything. Do you realise the power of this statement?
When someone claims full responsibility of their actions, it means he or she is 100% percent liable for every failure but at the same time for every success.
I think at this point it all comes down to egoism. If someone succeeds he must be able to say to him or herself, good job, you old me, you did it. With help but YOU did it. It's the survival instict at it's best, when namely you can tell yourself at the mirror, you fucked the shit out of that, whatever may it be.
I would advise you to read a poem, from a favourite poet of mine, C.P Cavafy,
Ithaca. My personal interpretation of it and unfortunately I'm not an expert on literature is,that the goal is the journey itself. If we knew everything from the start, we would not be able to feel this moment of enrichment, in which we can say to ourselves, today I became just a little bit less dumm, less οf a slacker, less of a coward, less of any negative adjective, depending on what goals each of us holds dear to him or her and set for him or herself respectively. If you would allow the A.I. to gain control of this journey to fullfillment, you would eliminate once and for all the right of every human being to set the compass of the ship to any destination he or she pleases. You would transform them, without their will, to the best people they could ever be. And the world would be a much more of a better place, much safer, like as if it was already decided that we should win. Much more boring also, and the same from every corner of it.
Imagine the 100% correct recipe, that would be applied to everyone, everywhere, everytime, again, and again and again. Do you want that?
Let me tell you something, I don't. I want my children, if I'm able to find a woman crazy enough to put up with me, to be the men or women they will chose to, with bad or good qualities. They will be my own flesh and blood and as their father, I will love them for what they are, and pray to Him, if he's up there to give me the strength to show them the moral values that I, personally, hold dear and commit the least amount of mistakes along the way. And you know why? Pure selfishness. I want to be sure of the fact ,that If my genes manage to pass on to the gene pool of the next generations, they are going to be worth it, because they're fucking A quality. I'd prefer it, If someone would tell me Natural selection decided that your genes are shit, therefore were excluded instead of saying to me your genes made to the next round ,but guess what, they didn't have much choice, everything was pretty much predetermined.
I hope you found my '' little'' comment interesting and worth of your time. I used some offensive language in order to show to you that I'm not some kind of preacher who sees nothing wrong in god's will. I'm just trying to introduce you to a mindset through which I could say to myself that my mother did not go through that much pain and suffering, in order to see me also suffer, through which I can say to my mummy, you did not waste 9 months of your life bearing me inside your body, sharing your food with me for nothing. In such a mindset I can find legitimacy for my course of action, my consumption of oxygen and natural resources, things crucial for the wellbeing of the whole ecosystem.
Have a good day or pleasant evening or good night, depending on your time zone. Everything's relative or I'm gonna get so fucking crazy, I'll be gullping down meds like m&m's. Hahaha, take care.
"Is it possible to become God? Is the unconscious mind nothing other than the God portal, the Heaven gate?
This is the extraordinary account of the ancient and controversial secret society known as the Pythagorean Illuminati of how it is possible for every human being to attain divinity.
There are two vast obstacles to overcome, one relating to a lack of consciousness, and the other to an over-identification with consciousness. The followers of the Abrahamic religions are "bicameral", meaning that they are highly submissive, have little grasp of rationality and obey "voices" emanating from their unconscious. Atheistic scientific materialists, on the other hand, are overly rational and deny the existence of anything other than their mortal ego-consciousness, and doubt even that. They have cut themselves off from the most mysterious domain in existence: that of the two numbers zero and infinity which define all of the mysteries of life.
The God Program deconstructs all of the claims of scientific materialism and shows why they they are false in relation to all of the most important issues of existence: life, mind, consciousness, God, the soul and the afterlife. Equally, the "revealed" religions of Abrahamism are shown to be rooted in the pre-conscious mind of the human race and to constitute a kind of mental illness and hatred of rationality. If anything, they are a manifestation of Devil worship.
Have you ever asked where the laws of the Big Bang were stored prior to the Big Bang in order to be able to shape and direct that cosmic event? The God Program takes you on an astonishing journey back to the era before the Big Bang. It reveals how and why the material cosmos came into existence, and what the precise answer is to the ultimate question of "life, the universe and everything".
It demonstrates how Jung's theory of the psyche can be traced back to the ideas of the Neoplatonist Plotinus, and illustrates why Jung's concept of the collective unconscious is the key to human apotheosis.
The God Program also reveals the true nature of the world's most sacred object: the holy grail.
This may be the most revolutionary book in history, presenting a unique and breathtaking view of reality. If you cannot find the answers to your profoundest questions in the God Program, you will find them nowhere."
www.smashwords.com/books/view/99719
+PSspecialist Politicians aren't idiots. Those who think they are and those who always elect the worst ones, on the other hand...
When i heard this discussion on the game i didn't think it had so much meaning in it until now. This just practically blew my mind
Hey Logo I just wanted yo say your videos are very good. When i first played MGS2 I was..13 I believe. So the whole conversation blew past me but When I replayed Mgs2 In HD I understood more of it but not all of it. Your videos allowed me to grasp what Hideo was talking about during this conversation. So thank you for making these videos and helping me to understand MGS2 and ,by extension, a bit more about the world.
Of the canon MGS games it's probably the last one I'd recommend based on importance to the series and in general quality. You really didn't miss anything by skipping it, the only story event in it that even has any relevance to future events is that during it Big Boss meets Grey Fox for the first time and in the game it's mostly a minor detail anyway. The whole crux of the game was that the CIA and the pentagon were having a fight over the rest of the philosopher's legacy that wasn't found yet.
Basically the AIs take forever to explain that Raiden is the posterchild for human incompetance
Wow, quite the analysis, my friend. Thanks for explaining this part of the game. I remembered when I first played this years ago, it scared the crap out of me hahaha. I wasn't used to a story that was this complex. Kojima-san is a genius.
Thanks again for sharing this.
I really don't mind Raiden's cyberdization, but I think it could have been a lot more dramatic. They could have, I dunno, explored on Raiden'S insecurities and convey that he got a cyborg body because he never believed he could succeed by himself and have snake act as a balance to him by being the guy constantly reminding him that even a sick old guy can still rock everyone's shit simply because he's got heart. Besides, Snake constantly tried to remind Raiden that his heart was still human.
I remember when i watched the avengers loki tells the audience that humans were created to be controlled (or something like that), the audience at the theater laughed. but i realized that that laugh was like a way of avoiding their true fears and that at some point we really dont believe in free will.
as for the movie that moment seemed to me a really good demonstration of humna behavior.
Fantastic interpretation
12 years later and only 99k views.... Let that sink in.
They are saying that because we get to choose what we believe or don't believe, we can also CHOOSE who we want ourselves to be, or at least choose which aspects or portrayals of who we are that we wish to present to others. They are asserting that because we have control over "who" we are in terms of what other people see, nobody is actually genuine 100% of the time. In theory one could completely become somebody else in terms of what they decide to show people. Thus making "self" a mask.
Raiden's brutal hardships and destruction of his body entirely is an abomination generated from the hate he received after replacing Snake in MGS2. -MGS4 Producer
Implies that the only way people could accept a brutally unstable and confused character whom we were thrown into the shoes of and manipulated just as easily, was by taking away his humanity, therefore severing any "hurt feelings" that attached us to him. As the A.I. in the video says, people change the REAL truth to feel better.
Man, i like your analysis about this conversation! i am a big fan of MGS series and the story! I will follow you! This it's the only scene in the series that you are face to face with the patriots! GREAT!!
And this is an example of why Metal Gear is my favourite video game series of all time.
Profound movies, books or games aren't about the breakthroughs in their own mediums alone, they're about using their strengths to have you experience ideas in a new way that you can't get without it. Where 1984 used words, The Matrix used them along with visuals and audio, and Metal Gear Solid 2 used them together with interactive gameplay.
Here's is what I believe happens in MGS2. This isn't the truth, but a truth. Would like to know your opinions.
The Tanker mission is The Patriots' version of events that you/Raiden play and experience in VR. The Tanker Incident did happen, but not as we know it (this is what Pliskin tells you). That led to the construction of the Big-Shell.
After this, and after completing "over 300 VR missions", Raiden/you think that you are "some kind of legendary mercenary". He also "covered Shadow Moses in VR", which makes me think that what happened in MGS1, as we know it, is also a VR mission we get to play based on some "truths". The Patriots know that they can control digital information, but struggle to create context in the real-life. This is why the S3 plan exists. The events of the Big-Shell do happen, and this is Raiden's first time experiencing true fear and facing death. Hence the entire C4 disposal part. The objective behind all of this is to use a real environment, and add completely surreal events to see if, no matter the context given the subject was willing to obey to orders given by the Patriots. This is so surreal that even Raiden/you start questionning the reality of everything happening around him/you. The Colonel is here to push you with facts and mission orders, in other words to CONVINCE you to continue your mission. Rose is here to PERSUADE you to continue your mission. Even if everything seems completely surreal. But the Patriots/GW don't have the required knowledge and data to know how to control humans in a real-life situation. The AI explains it to you in their last codec conversation : "The objective of this exercice, was to establish such a method".
Now, what happens in Arsenal Gear is, I believe, in a VR environment. Which would explain why everything make no sense at all. Arsenal Gear's area names, the impossible geometry, lines of codes floating everywhere, a bottomless pit inside what's supposed to be a naval ship, a ladder that leads to the VR arena that was used in MGS1 to track your "progress". This is also why people appear from nowhere. I also believe that the Solid Snake you encounter in the last part is a VR character, which is Raiden's/your idea representation of his character : the Legendary Mercenary. This is how Raiden keeps refering to Snake. The fact that he tells a whole other story of what happens in the Tanker could explain not only the different flashbacks (Snake slaughtering Russian mercs with a FAMAS), but also why the last part of the game is completely different : no more sneaking, this is pure chaos and bloodbath. What makes me believe that is that the AI tells you that they've found a way of "digitalizing life itself", so why not create characters ? After all, the VR Missions in MGS2 show you characters who can bleed, breath etc. This also reinforces the "context" argument, that no matter what's happening around you, no matter how surreal it looks, you're willing to follow orders following what you believe is right to do. But that very same idea of what's "right to do" isn't even your idea, it was implemented into your brain while doing VR Training and by talking with "Snake".
And before you answer, I know there's a VR Theory out there but it doesn't cover some plot holes. Also, about the "MGS4 invalidates many things" don't forget that not only that game wasn't planned when MGS2 was done, but the fact that everything happens in a VR Simulation doesn't prevent real events from happening.
Another neat detail is that when they talk about S3, a distorted version of the Theme Of Solid Snake from Metal Gear 2 (not this game, the 8-bit game from like 1990) plays.
im remember when i first heard this , it was so much truth behind it, i started to look at mankind somewhat different,hell i looked at myself differently .. glad u you took the time to make this ..
This was amazing
AH! MY favorite Serie and still i am learning new things about it. Thank to you you helped me understand MGS 2 Better. And because of you i am gonna go replay MGS2 on my HD collection.
I'd have been interested in your take on Rose. As her existence (and the ramifications of the conclusion) is one of the central mysteries of MGS2.
I'd request more testing thought than simply citing MGS4 (since MGS2 was a closed loop at the time and the arbitrary MGS4 has questions over it's creative integrity).
Something I never did get about this ending was Rose. Obviously Rose wasn't an AI all along as she talked to Jack about things only they would know and he sees her at the end of the game where she says "see me for what I am ok?" but 09:37 made me think she is like Campbell, being corrupted by the virus, therefore an AI not to mention attempting to lure him into the trap in AG by shouting "help!" plus being a part of campbells discussion. Where does Rose end and the AI Rose begin, if at all?
"of course I do Jack! You have to beLIEve me."
interesting...
Okay I apologize for that part, I guess I was typing what I was thinking, your right, very uncalled for.
Now I did a little research he said
"Maybe let’s say there’s a game out there where there’s a boss that you cannot defeat. It’s made that way. Normallly, when you beat the boss in a game, there’s a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment, but if you can’t beat the boss at all, if what you’re left with is a sense of loss, then maybe that could be defined as art."
That is clearly Fortune.
I liked the conversation that Raiden and Snake have after this, it teaches us the importance of a legacy.
Solidus explained that he and his brothers were born as monsters since they don't have a legacy and since no one lasts forever, their life's have no meaning.
And in the end we see that not even the human race may last forever, but since we ARE free we can built our own legacy and we have all the power of the digital era to do so. So building a legacy is the secret of immortality.
If by one light you mean on a certain level yes, and that's the point. The best villains ultimately are ones that are actually or at least arguably right although it's hard for some people to admit it. This is certainly the best example of that I can think of.
Imagine if it were Snake, not Raiden, that was in this conversation.......
Great video! I loved the entire metal gear series.
I agree with you at the end there, you're basically stating you're a hard determinist. Soft determinism and compatibilism are inherently logically inconsistent if you accept that with understanding comes better predictability. There is no logical reason to make any kind of exception for ourselves just because we want to, and I've never heard anyone claim otherwise.
when raiden is gripping the dog tags...take a good look nearby the car..it is Vamp
Kojima is a genius. The MG series is a master piece of art. And in a sense AI like video games do control you, for ex. If a mission says to "kill someone", in order to proceed you have to "kill whoever it indicates". Controlling your will
Absolutely the most incredible game of all time. The writing for this game is amazing.
That's hard to imagine for a number of reasons, particularly because it just wouldn't happen. Snake isn't really the same Snake here that he was in MGS1, he is a mentor and his character reflects that now. In MGS1 he was the knowingly uninformed expendable, here he's the knowing master of the situation seemingly. He'd have put up more of an argument sure but overall it wouldn't change much, he'd just end up being more indifferent towards the Patriots than Raiden.
Philosophy never has to enter the discussion in the first place. We observe the universe to behave in a certain way, it tends toward increasing stability of matter and higher complexity and so on, that alone is the self evident purpose of the universe.
oh... I remember when Raiden said that he went trought the shadow moses simulation.
Well, i live in a small city Brazil, its true that nowdays everyone like to sing popular musics, play the most popular games and fashion themselfes as popular characters from TV, but here, far away form the capital, people have more free will, they have more distinguished preferences to movies, novels, music, soap opera, series, games and fashion. I know it, because when i travel to a big city, everybody likes the SAME THING, it´s like they are mindless zombies, so MGS2 opened my eyes to that.
I always come back to this every once and a while first saw it at 16 I'm now 27.
@gamephreak5 The argument that LogosSteve is trying to make about video games is the artistic reaction that it provides... similarily in the way that a book can provide entertainment and a moral effect or theme.
In the case of Metal Gear Solid 2, the game doesn't act JUST as a tool of convenience to satisfy our entertainment needs, but makes the intellectually competent player realize that a story as psychologically compelling as this one can only be told through a video game. That is art.
Well in Metal Gear Solid 4, Big Boss said that Solidus and Liquid were fighting what they believed in. No one was really a bad guy.
in fact, the game came out in 2001. and was being made form 1999 till 2001...
At the time Kojima was reading influental books...
I have only begun to demonstrate this, I'm going to talk about his review of the matrix.
Interesting what you say at the end because Kojima has said himself that he doesn't believe games to necessarily be considered art. Honestly I think this has a lot to do with him being behind the series and therefore not experiencing it the same way we do...also his conceptions of art seem to be more unorthodox. Nonetheless, MGS is indeed a prime example of how games can transcend to philosophical storytelling experiences, and art. Only a slightly under-appreciated masterpiece.
Zero created the AI's , through the philosopher 's legacy inheritance , but he never thought he would become the pawn and lose power , creating a digital monster hell bent on control of the human condition . the exact opposite of what The Boss wanted so many years ago
No, this conversation is mentioned in Rising in a codec call but the issue of Raiden becoming a cyborg is never even mentioned.