The Themes of Metal Gear Solid 2 Part 3: Choice and Legacy

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  • Опубліковано 9 лис 2024

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  • @s0nnyburnett
    @s0nnyburnett 7 років тому +54

    I wish I could get this kind of analysis on all my favorite pieces of media.

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  7 років тому +10

      Well... got any other favorite pieces of media you suggest I take a look at? No promises but I'm wondering what I will do to branch out in not too long.

    • @Oddity00
      @Oddity00 5 років тому +7

      I wish I knew more media deserving of this kind of analysis.

    • @jonipp1
      @jonipp1 Рік тому

      @@Oddity00 lmao

  • @ohrileymccoy
    @ohrileymccoy 7 років тому +26

    I've been meaning to say for sometime that in part 1 of the series, and tremendous job on it all btw, I think the biggest deception of all was the meta-deception Kojima played on us all with the deliberate misdirection of making all the hype in the build up towards the release of MGS2 make it seem as if Snake was going to be the main playable character throughout the game and then the massive carpet rug pulling of introducing Raiden as the main character. That is a massive deception given how popular Snake was as a character, how anticipated MGS2 was at the time and how pivotal Raiden was in regards to all the themes you brilliantly lay out. Just wanted to say that. Thank you for the great work

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  7 років тому +2

      suiteheart Yeah, I may not have mentioned it but that's true. Thanks.

    • @ohrileymccoy
      @ohrileymccoy 7 років тому +4

      Honestly, that wasn't a complaint but just something I found rather interesting after considering all of the subtext and theme you were exploring in your video in the first place. Which is what allowed me to see that bait-and-switch through a different lens and I was able to vastly appreciate that game much more (already was an all time favorite)
      It's also not in the narrative of the story in any way so it's more of a broadening, wide scope perspective of all those themes you describe. You can't say it's "part of the story of MGS2" because it isn't...it's a commentary on us but I think Kojima was entirely cognizant of this and used such a drastic and decisive decision in order to subliminally reinforce the major themes of the story...
      now i'm rambling, thank you so much!

    • @anthonywhite7873
      @anthonywhite7873 5 років тому

      Yeah I remember that exact feeling the first time I played, it was like I had been tricked but for a specific purpose and only 16 years later do i now understand. Erie!!!!!

  • @Comkill117
    @Comkill117 3 роки тому +4

    I love that Snake’s response to “What should I believe in?” is “Thats your problem.” Compared to how controlling the Patriots are and how they planned everything, it’s nice to have the guy who’s actually on your side giving you the freedom to figure things out for yourself.

  • @hansfrankfurter2903
    @hansfrankfurter2903 2 роки тому +2

    This game is so eerie and prophetic since it was released only 2 months after 9/11 and not only is it set in NYC but it predicts a terrorist attack and it warns against all the abuses of power that had taken place due to 9/11 or was set in motion by 9/11.
    Wikipedia Quote "Significant changes to the game's ending were made late in development following the September 11 attacks in New York, where the finale occurs. A sequence depicting Arsenal Gear's displacement of the Statue of Liberty and crashing through half of Manhattan was removed, as was a short coda to appear after the credits, a breaking newscast showing the Statue of Liberty's new resting place, Ellis Island. At the point where Solidus dies, Raiden was supposed to have cut the rope on Federal Hall's flagpole, causing an American flag to fall over Solidus' body, and American flags that were supposed to be on all the flagpoles in New York were removed from the title.[74] The Japanese spelling of the name "Raiden" was changed from katakana (ライデン) to kanji (雷電) due to the former form of the name resembling "Bin Laden" in Japanese.[d][75]"
    "According to Kojima in the documentary Metal Gear Saga Vol. 1, the original plot of the game revolved around nuclear weapon inspections in Iraq and Iran and had Solid Snake trying to stop the Metal Gear while it was located on an aircraft carrier, in a certain time limit, while trying to stop Liquid Snake and his group. However, about six months into the project, the political situation in the Middle East became a concern, and they decided that they could not make a game with such a plot. The tanker in the released game is based on this original plot."

  • @KarasawaL30
    @KarasawaL30 7 років тому +11

    Sharing this everywhere; people gotta know why MGS2 is so impactful as one of the first (in my opinion) true postmodern game that transcends mere entertainment and encroaches on the territory of artfulness.
    And thank you so much, sir, for your analyses. I have so thoroughly enjoyed this series of videos.

    • @Shanyae9
      @Shanyae9 2 роки тому

      TL;DR: Good Game

  • @JamesCarmichael
    @JamesCarmichael 7 років тому +6

    "I faked being a victim myself because I couldn't bare to face the families of the real victims."
    "I've killed my soul by playing the victim."

  • @Arkangel630
    @Arkangel630 7 років тому +6

    I would have never connected the dots to see the overarching themes as clearly if it wasn't for your videos. Really made me see the game in a new light.
    Good job man.

  • @intrepidconqueror8199
    @intrepidconqueror8199 7 років тому +4

    Holy shit, I subscribed today and I'm already getting content I subscribed for.

  • @deandejaguar
    @deandejaguar 4 роки тому +2

    I still think this is the best Metal Gear game - intrigue, mystery, plot-twists, furthering the story, fan-service without pandering. It did everything that MGS1 did only better, pushed the envelope of what was possible from games at the time and fleshed out the universe (that would unfortunately be it's downfall too - nanomachines!)
    I never got the hate of Raiden - he always made Snake look and feel cooler. But we saw the character progression through the game. Snake in MGS1 was already a legend, a hero, he didn't really have a progression other than deciding not to be a pawn anymore (though quitting FOXHound was his first attempt, being kidnapped and forced to go to Shadow Moses wasn't really a willing decision).
    I personally think they should have left some mystery in things for MGS4, not just explain everything with nano's ... also, the massive booboo with Dr. Clark's switching gender to fit the story...

  • @adamhh1994
    @adamhh1994 7 років тому +17

    Two videos in a day?
    You're really spoiling us here Steve!

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  7 років тому +8

      Christmas came very late.

    • @adamhh1994
      @adamhh1994 7 років тому

      Hey as long as you're here man.

  • @Mongo121314
    @Mongo121314 4 роки тому +1

    Man, after watching your metal gear videos including the mgs1 ones, I will say this series is one of the most intelligently written stories I've ever seen. It can be convoluted at times sure but as a whole is just so well done. Everyone should get to experience it at least one time through either by playing them or videos like this and others. Absolute masterpieces.

  • @DiggsLuciano
    @DiggsLuciano 2 роки тому +1

    Thank you for your time, efforts to make the video. Those are the answers to my question about How we Live. Yes it is profound for me. I let go or Burnt out like phoenix after I saw those video,. For greater good, not just for me, but Mya family my society and my beloved country Indonesia. The Creator of Our Reality give you goodness multiple times from the this kindness that you have gave.

  • @ArgentWolf95
    @ArgentWolf95 5 років тому +2

    I've watched this series since part one all in one go tonight, and it is an amazing commentary. A lot of what you explain is pretty much how my real life worldview took shape as I understood the themes on a surface level. However, your videos have pretty much explored them oon a deeper level than I have seen, so awesome work at that! This game influenced me on a lot of deeper levels as I grew up. As a teenager, I didn't understand it, but I played MGS a lot through my years, and eventually it actually taught me the same lessons Raiden has to learn about free will and the dangers of authoritarian power, misinformation, lies, and the value of deciding for myself what to believe and fight for. All the themes you explored had an impact on me in my life. Something I've actually struggled with at times, but MGS 2 always would give me hope in a strange way.
    That last part is why Solid Snake and Big Boss are two of my greatest video game heroes for over two decades. Through these characters, Kojima taught me the value of free will and what I should believe in or fight for. It's important now because of how torn the western world is ideologically. What i'm trying to say is. Because of MGS 2. I've developed my own personal principles, morals and beliefs that defend free will of others. A viewpoint that is becoming more rare in a time where governments and corporations are doing something similar to what the S3 plan is.

  • @eldevenirdelostiempos9764
    @eldevenirdelostiempos9764 6 років тому +3

    The ending was kind of pessimistic, this video has made me cheer up again! Thank you!!

  • @EricExistentialism
    @EricExistentialism 7 років тому +1

    These vids and the ones on the AI convo have given me an all new appreciation for this game as an adult, since I first played it when I was young and a lot of this went over my head. What an absolute masterpiece of gaming and it's spotlighted fantastically here. Well done

  • @zach7
    @zach7 7 років тому +38

    did you wait to release this on April 30th?

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  7 років тому +43

      zach7 More like I forced myself to finish it today because of what day it is.

  • @jamieowens3115
    @jamieowens3115 6 років тому +15

    Man, amazing! This is the third time I’ve watched this series so I thought it deserved a comment especially being so close to April 30th.
    It’s overarching narrative is like the war between the philosophies of Modernism (the sons of Liberty) and Postmodernism (GW AI) and how Raiden has to navigate that philosophical battlefield. Basically I think it gets to the point where even though postmodernism has some good ideas it can be taken too far (and become nighilistic like Raiden becoming scared and confused about reality and his place in the world) and not to reject modernism (something that has been happening since the genesis of postmodern thought and more so over the last 30 years that has spawned an intellectual backlash with the likes of Jordan Peterson and others in recent years)
    I don’t know if you noticed, but throughout the game the Colonel sounds as if about 100 different voice actors with similar voices took it in turns to do different lines, it can even change in the middle of a paragraph and it’s so odd and jarring when you notice it. It adds to the idea that he was AI the whole time whereas this doesn’t happen with anyone else.
    Anyway, spectacular video and thanks for your hard work. MGS2 is a work of art.

  • @Zombehz4lyfe
    @Zombehz4lyfe 7 років тому +1

    Thanks for finally returning to this series man. MGS2 is one of my all time favourites, glad to see more coverage on it and hopefully your stuff will get the attention it deserves soon.

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  7 років тому

      Zombehz4lyfe I appreciate it.

  • @epocdotnet
    @epocdotnet 7 років тому +4

    Now I need to re-watch the last 2 parts!
    Completely worth it though, you gave me a whole new perspective on a much loved game (series).
    Your videos are the ones I show to my friends, when I want to explain why I love them so much.
    I hope you're gonna hang around for a while

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  7 років тому +1

      Daniel With people like you it's hard not to.

  • @bronosx2246
    @bronosx2246 6 років тому +2

    Well, I just finished watching all three of these and I can't believe such a great video I've been missing. I know who I'm subscribing to. Steve, you have my thanks.

  • @f1delio
    @f1delio 7 років тому +1

    This is so good. Thank you for making these.

  • @thewhizkid3937
    @thewhizkid3937 5 років тому +1

    "making an argument for free will." - that part I like

  • @aprendendocomgames
    @aprendendocomgames 6 років тому +8

    Please, return with your channel! ❤🎮

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  5 років тому +3

      I am getting footage for my MGS1 vid today.

    • @adrianlopez3373
      @adrianlopez3373 5 років тому +1

      Please keep going man! This series convinced me that mgs2 isn’t just VR entirely. I have to play it again to see where I stand but this series gave me a fresh perspective

  • @MrEffectfilms
    @MrEffectfilms 6 років тому +2

    I love that you waited to post this on April 30th, very appropriate.

  • @Swagghanistan
    @Swagghanistan 7 років тому +2

    Excellent series of videos. You have a very keen eye for the details

  • @jonipp1
    @jonipp1 Рік тому +1

    im here because a bald man from twitch KEKW
    edit: i feel like i just won lottery because your channel is literally made from gold, i have now watched pretty much everyone of your videos and i fucking love your content

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  Рік тому +1

      Thanks a lot! I apologize for the reviews I think they're my weakest stuff by far.

  • @melanieisdemented
    @melanieisdemented 5 років тому

    fantastic and cataclysmic observation of a part of the MGS saga.

  • @Lorkoification
    @Lorkoification 5 років тому

    Thanks Steve, that was really something.

  • @chrisbee1984
    @chrisbee1984 5 років тому

    I think the conflict with "Radient and Rose" will live on forever

  • @mehmettan3570
    @mehmettan3570 4 роки тому

    Amazing! Thanks alot!

  • @Pauld0622
    @Pauld0622 7 років тому

    glad your back!

  • @aprendendocomgames
    @aprendendocomgames 6 років тому

    Loved these analysis videos! Love MGS!

  • @gregoryberrycone
    @gregoryberrycone 6 років тому +3

    working on anything else? your mgs2 vids are some of the best content ive seen on youtube. if you enjoy the post modern stuff id have to reccomend gravitys rainbow and V. by pynchon (novels) (pynchon even makes a direct kojima reference in one of his novels, and ive always wondered if Kojima is even aware of how much of the meta narrative devices he employs were pioneered by Pynchon in literary form decades earlier)

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  6 років тому +1

      Well... I might do the other MGS games' themes, I feel like it's worth doing. I have other videos too I might do. I don't read much but I'll consider giving those a look.

    • @gregoryberrycone
      @gregoryberrycone 6 років тому

      good to hear, id be very interested to hear your thoughts on mgs1. those fourth wall breaks (mantis, meryls codec on the cd case, "you enjoy all the killing, thats why!" and so on) are still some of the best in gaming.

  • @christophergarrison2628
    @christophergarrison2628 4 роки тому

    Solid snake was an unknown unknown! There are known knowns and unknown knowns and there are unknown unknowns. IT WAS AN UNKNOWN UNKNOWN!

  • @FronkZappa
    @FronkZappa 7 років тому +2

    oh hell yea thirst 4 that mgs2 content like

  • @jojoalsodayri5256
    @jojoalsodayri5256 8 місяців тому

    Extremely beautiful and insightful videos, thank you so much.!
    Kindly, will there be vids for MGS3 and 4?

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  8 місяців тому +2

      Kind of. I've decided the next videos will be more about themes in japanese games/anime as a whole and I'll talk about them

    • @zlodrim9284
      @zlodrim9284 6 місяців тому

      @@LogosSteve That's great to hear!

  • @BenjaminWhitley
    @BenjaminWhitley 7 років тому +6

    Steve, thank you so much for making another video about MGS2. I've been thinking about your MGS2 videos regularly since the election. The fact that Kojima was so prescient about the problem of the lack of data filters in the information age continues to blow my mind. I assume he must have read some book about it that inspired those elements of the game? I'm aware of Dawkin's The Selfish Gene, does it all come from that? Because that would be very surprising that Dawkins, a biologist, would have that kind of insight into data theory, but then again, it is a logical conclusion when comparing genes to memes. What are your thoughts about these ideas in the "post truth" "fake news" Trump era? Personally, my mind immediately goes to the fact that all the major tech giants have already spent the time and money building spam and fraud filters into their systems, but none of them have filters for false information. And now we as a society have all at once paid the overdue price for it.

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  7 років тому +7

      Benjamin Whitley Well it's certainly interesting but this has always been a problem with the net. Google and youtube are so huge for example yet don't (and couldn't) employ enough people so sort through our information so automated systems have to suffice for things like customer support. Google has to use algorithms to guess what search results you want and the surprising thing is how good they are at still doing all this without people. But of course that means that for now there will be that discrepancy between what a program and a person can do to filter through stuff. Until AI is as good as people or better.
      Where Kojima got this stuff from as I understand it is stuff like The Selfish Gene and also just the general political mentality the Japanese have about government censorship, it's a much more familiar topic to them than us. Possibly some Neuromancer in there or something it influenced too. At least that's my guess. MGS2 is always more true than ever before, there's no escaping that it seems. Polarization, income inequality and what psychology dictates happen because of those largely are the factors that got us into the bizarre political climate we have today. To borrow a phrase from The Newsroom, people choose the facts they want. Kojima just used some basic insight into human psychology and our failings and saw the potential for the internet to expose them. If our economy wasn't so mismanaged at the end of the day then things wouldn't be nearly as bad as they are now.

  • @deadspace4755
    @deadspace4755 6 місяців тому

    "Without free will, there is no difference between submission and rebellion."
    What does it mean exactly?
    He is referring to the patriots(Submission) and Solidus(Rebellion) but what is the connection between them(the words)? Prez means that without free will all is pointless? Surely l missed something or missed between the lines. But this quote still rings true as every line in this game, in our era.
    l want so much to milk every detail that is helpful that Kojima wants us to see and understand, since almost everything(if not all) is relevant to this day.

  • @killermicrobe
    @killermicrobe 7 років тому

    Oh my god

  • @matmcd4660
    @matmcd4660 5 років тому +1

    At the end Solidus says, this is where George Washington's Presidency began 200 years ago today...
    that would make the year only 1989

    • @Omnituber01
      @Omnituber01 5 років тому

      Majority of MGS 2 took place in 2014.
      So: 2014 - 200 = 1814
      George Washington would already be dead by then as he died in 1799 (though one could assume that Solidus meant over 200 years ago). You're right by assumption but flawed in proving it by of mathematical error.

    • @hansfrankfurter2903
      @hansfrankfurter2903 2 роки тому

      @@Omnituber01 The game was actually during 2007, so it should've been 1807 but still your conclusion is right. He meant it as a ballpark estimate.
      Man the lore of this game is so amazing.

  • @EmoDKTsuchiya
    @EmoDKTsuchiya 6 місяців тому

    Oh look. Its our current reality

  • @deadspace4755
    @deadspace4755 6 місяців тому

    "Without free will, there is no difference between submission and rebellion."
    What does it mean exactly?
    He is referring to the patriots(Submission) and Solidus(Rebellion) but what is the connection between them(the words)? Prez means that without free will all is pointless? Surely l missed something or missed between the lines. But this quote still rings true as every line in this game, in our era.

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  6 місяців тому

      Yeah you got it. Without free will everything is pointless, basically. This is all coming from another big theme across Japanese media called Self-Identity I will have to make a video on, at some point. It's very similar to free will.

    • @deadspace4755
      @deadspace4755 6 місяців тому

      @@LogosSteve Free will, who gave that to us? Our own Creator, God. Without free will, we are just a machine or animal. But even with free will, we can still destroy others or our own self. So, it is about how you use it.

  • @sethpassmore8821
    @sethpassmore8821 6 років тому

    bruh, your stuff is dope. What are some of your favorite games?

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  6 років тому +2

      Well, this and Final Fantasy X are my all time favorites. Lately my hat is off to Nier: Automata and The Evil Within (the sequel I don't think is as good), also The Talos Principle. I still need to play Deus Ex: Mankind Divided but I did like Human Revolution...

    • @sethpassmore8821
      @sethpassmore8821 6 років тому +2

      LogosSteve sweet. FFX was the only one I ever beat, just never got to or was spoiled of the others..
      MGS2 IS my second fav MGS - only recently because of its narrative becoming more and more relevant today (at least here in the US). Your philosophical understanding of it was so precise.
      But my favorite game is Shadow of the Colossus. Its hard for me to actually give a few more. Psychonauts was cool lol.
      But if you could go on about more stuff, specifically philosophy in dope ass games, youd be the first patreon i'd support. Until then ill be patiently waiting.
      -Seth

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  6 років тому +3

      Sounds like the motivation I need. Thanks.

  • @KOTEBANAROT
    @KOTEBANAROT 6 років тому

    this is really good. id noticed before that Ames specifically mentioned parallel processor supercomputers while GW is itself that computer, but didnt really think of it much. i also love that no, the patriots ARE wrong and seem pretty pathetic on their own, and the only thing they can do is lie and manipulate - though they do that well, just look at the fans going "well the ai isnt wrong!" and maybe believing that we need such an ai. it is especially funny when one side of some political debate mentions patriots speech at the end to deride other side for cherry picking truths and sitting in echo chambers all while doing the exact same thing.

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  6 років тому +1

      My feelings about the patriots are somewhat complex. In this video I try and represent what the game has to say as accurately as I can, but I do think in concept, if you take away the lying and lack of consent of the people, AIs like the Patriots are an eventuality.

    • @KOTEBANAROT
      @KOTEBANAROT 6 років тому +1

      LogosSteve i couldnt help but think about patriots ai when i was listening to strangeloves tapes in peace walker. she was talkig about how ai would probably take the direction of having a hive mind unlike the sci fi ais that have identity similar to humans. i guess the patriots are like... fusion of the two?

    • @LogosSteve
      @LogosSteve  6 років тому +2

      I recommend the original ghost in the shell movie for a more nuanced take on this kind of topic. In my opinion that's probably one of the best depictions in fiction of how AIs of the future will consider the concept of self. In reality even humans are both concepts at the same time (a collective and individuals), we just think of ourselves primarily as individuals because of how our brains evolved as a social species. Things like the basic idea in psychology of Theory of Mind and all that, the fact that we have instinctive mechanisms to recognize other humans as thinking just like us. Thus our knee jerk reactions to entities in fiction that seem like hive minds is that they're evil. AIs will be masters of acting like individuals and acting as a collective, they'll be smart enough to know they will have to present themselves as individuals or we will think they're too alien to us to be relate-able. But you also have to ask how much baggage we have in our idea of self, things like the instinct for self-preservation. If you could think entirely logically would you necessarily need that? How about emotions?

  • @LoftOfTheUniverse
    @LoftOfTheUniverse 3 роки тому

    MGS2 is still so confusing

  • @DionPanday
    @DionPanday 7 років тому +2

    Steven and Hyperbit both release a Metal gear video on the same day? What is goin on.

    • @HerbieTEA
      @HerbieTEA 7 років тому +3

      Do you know what today is... Jack?