Dragon's End Tribalism - Talk with MightyTeapot & Chat
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
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This video has blown up, and a few things have gotten VERY misinterpreted so I'm going to pin this:
1) I was having a conversation with my stream about the meta when Teapot happened to drop by. I of course was the only one with a mic, this wasn't planned, and we just talked (him within the chat panel) for 2 hours. The tone of everything he said was interpreted through chat, and I do not believe any of it was malicious.
2) A few people have hit me with "how dare you post this video without his permission". It was a video I was already making and he popped in in the middle of it. On my stream, without his face, and without his voice. I did not feel I was making him look bad in any way so it honestly did not even OCCUR to me that he would be against it. Perhaps that was wrong, but that was the mindset of what happened.
3) One major misinformation point. I've seen people saying teapot is "able-ist" because he asks people to get on voice chat. That... that isn't able-ist. That isn't what that means. Stop.
4) At the time I write this, there are a lot of comments with VERY negative things said about him. This is making his community think that mine is attacking his, and they are reacting to it. Please remember that we are just two dudes who both really enjoy this game. We have differing opinions about this topic, and that's fine, but NOT justification for personal attacks.
If you read this far, thank you.
On 2, and some part 4, if anything that proves your point on Tribalism even more so, that even if you don't pick sides unless you are on one side 100% the other side picks you for the other side. That there is this divide that has happened, that we've not had before. That the players are fighting other players. personally for me, I'm just going to go back to being a casual and logging daily to loot chests and do some wvw while I wait for things to blow over.
he reaps what he sows. his tone really shows who he is. he's always one of the eliteness, thinking that his 'fun' should be everyone else 'fun'.
i thought this was supposed to be a controversial video, i actually agree with your video. especially having influence on even half the map is really hard.
@@wishwisky8319 This is the one.
I don't consider myself in any "camp" and I'm not gonna back down on the comment I wrote.
I watch the occasional Muk video and I've been part of one teapot stream that showed me enough to know I wouldn't be interested in his comments or thoughts.
Any "attack" at teapot from my side, stems solely from the way he acts, rather than the need to "defend" Muk, though I can't speak for everyone, of course.
I don't think we should be taking sides. It just goes to show your point on tribalism. People want "one side" to "win" and pit you against one another. You and Teapot are both extremely talented and passionate individuals who enjoy the game and want to share that passion with your communities.
I am very sad that people think either of you were being negative about the other when all I saw was two extraordinary individuals, who are among some of my favorite content creators, speaking about their love for the game and approaching an issue from different angles. People have seemed to have forgotten the art of debating and immediately leap to X person is absolutely wrong and I stand by Y person. I suppose it has become the typical kneejerk reaction of social media.
Let's not forget that we are all fans of Guild Wars 2.
The level of patience you had with the chat, explaining the same things again and again, is off the hooks. Thanks for keeping the discussion civilized.
Babisiting hero.😅
When streaming there is constantly people coming in and out of the channel, it is all too common to answer a question, and seconds later have someone ask the exact same question 😅
Civilized and patient you are absolutly right about that. Would love to see more people to try to understand the 2 side of a discussion
I don't watch Muk a lot, but I will agree that this is one of the signs of a good streamer.
The patience to explain the same thing over and over or giving a quick and concise answer in conjunction with a chat command are key when it comes to interacting with viewers.
I would presume it annoys the streamer on the inside quite a bit, but it keeps up a good atmosphere in the stream.
Used to watch a streamer that would go really passive-aggressive if someone asked a previously answered question, pointed at a chat command while not even giving a yes/no answer and when the command had outdated info he'd get all pissy.
Yet also not afraid to drop some knowledge on the people who seem to not be able to or flat out refuse to understand any way but their own.
I run a tiny guild. It has 4-7 consistent members. 2 are capable WvW and PvP, 3 have attempted raids, 2 have kept up to current content, One has completed the "Return To" achievements, and I am one person in each of those examples.
I stayed for the entire video, and I think I'm now understanding some things better. No one is saying that the fight itself isn't good, it's the coolest thing I've ever done the game - and I did complete it yesterday after 15 attempts. But I know just from this reflection that every other member of my guild will absolutely be emotionally crushed by attempting this. For the more casual members of my guild I have tried over many times to improve their builds. Sometimes it works, sometimes no matter how hard I try I don't get any purchase in terms of improving behavior.
One of them even said that they don't play this game to engage in difficult content and it would be foolish to tell her all of a sudden that this game that she's enjoyed for over 7 years is suddenly not for her because of a single meta among dozens of metas that she's been able to complete just how she is.
While I definitely would hate to see a Nerf to this that would make a trivial, I do think that the damage this event is doing is real and dangerous for the health of the game.
WoodenPotatoes made a comment in a video I was watching from a while back where he said (and I’m paraphrasing here) that people who can’t “git gud” will just quietly leave the game because they don’t want to face the criticism of saying they can’t do something.
Listening to TeaPot’s comments made me think about that. Making people feel inferior (whether directly or indirectly) because they aren’t as good as you is just sad and is exactly how you push people away from the game.
That's the point though, they CAN do it they just need to engage a bit and they won't have a problem
@@MightyTeapot There are several people in my Guild that are in their sixties and seventies that quite literally can't get better at this game anymore. I used to be an extremely good video game player 20 years ago, but age robs you of all that. Not everyone in this game is a teen or even a thirty year old. I don't raid because I've tried and literally don't have the eye-hand coordination to pull it off anymore. Hiding a mount behind a fifty man raid is bullshit when there is no way you'll ever be able to get it.
@@MightyTeapot To put into perspective of why people are upset and depressed about this is that the advertised mount for all the marketing videos and trailers is locked behind an OPEN WORLD event that is forcing players to play in a certain way that is not preferred by them. Other factors have also been mentioned by chat and muk which i dont think needs to be reiterated.
To address the point about "Engaging a bit", Introducing new methods and provide incentives to make it fun for all when learning these mechanics is the way to go. I am sure there are plenty of suggestions that this community can put forth when it comes to that part. An OPEN WORLD meta where players are bombarded with all these at once is not how it should be done and it will cause a divide amongst the playerbase which is clearly evident atm.
I aint against you or how you prefer to play, Your version of "Engage a bit" is not going to be the same for all players who play this game and especially for OPEN WORLD PvE content. There is no "Correct" way of playing this game and that is evident with the diverse playerbase and the content they choose to interact with.
Instanced version of this meta for people who wanna tryhard and another version for the open world players which will of course be nerfed so that it can be done for those who are doing it atm and in the future. This is the only way that can please everyone.
Forcing anything on any playerbase is never going to help.
@@dalerippke3761 Yeah I wouldn't mind moving the turtle away from it, and I do think that although not all players have the skill to complete the meta, groups can get good enough to make up for that over time.
My runs have around 6-7 minutes left on the timer, that is more than enough to have a few less experienced players along for the ride!
@@hydragerium1 I really do mean a bit, this particular boss gets really easy with just understanding the very basics of the game.
Specifically -> Boons, Squads and Simple coordination.
You don't need raid level mechanics to beat this you need to know the basics of the game, it's a big step up because no other content in the game requires this (which could be considered a problem I suppose).
The definitive point of this discussion is the fact that you are limited to 50 random players in a raid group that you are not able to pick or kick. Everyone wants the loot at the end, but with the difficulty so high, not everyone in that group of 50 will be able to pull their weight. Random groups are random. Some people can't play at a high level. Some can but won't for personal reasons. Some people just troll. People are just too different to coordinate at such a high level in a random, open world event. Try-hards are limited by the weakest link in a random group of 50, therefore everyone will be unhappy. It's like that cartoon panel where they have elephants, monkeys, lizards, giraffes, and all manner of animals report to a class, and the teacher says, "Today, you will be graded on your ability to climb a tree." Only in this case, it's a group project, and even the monkeys will fail because of the elephants and turtles, even though everyone wants to succeed and no one intended to group together.
After chak gerent, tequatl update, and even the old balth temple meta events, i feel like anet has learned nothing
People in chat: what do you think about that meta?
Muk: I've got a guide for that!
Ok I lol'ed
Good job Thorne
"Get to the Point: Dragon's End" incoming.
No the real guide was provided by Teapot not Muk.
@@AntonMochalin ok fain boi LOL
“Non-consensual raiding” sums up the meta event incredibly accurately, but I wish it didn’t
Yeah... I think I might need to speak to a therapist now...
As someone who has played on and off since launch this division in the community hits different.
Tyria has always been one of the most welcoming worlds a gamer can step into. Sure pvp has its share of toxicity but that's true of any competitive mode.
We, as a community, are better than this. I've faith things will balance themselves out with some gentle nudges on Anet's part.
Have a little patience and remember someone else is behind that monitor you're screaming at in game.
No we the community are not better than this. This has been happening always any time balancing was a bit harder that the common. It happened with the Chak Gerent, it happened with raids, it happened with the marionette, it happened with the HPs on HoT launch, with some of the season 4 story bosses, it happened with the TT even. This is exactly how the gw2 community always has been. People have no chill and no patience that want instant satisfaction for the things they enjoy and damn all the others. This is why this community "cannot have nice things". This has always been one of the worse aspects of the gw2 community.
@@mormegil231 if it were an instance, where we have no difficulty joining a well prepared group. we wouldn't complain so much.
and yes.. it is very hard.. very hard to join a map with decent group........ Also RNG... been running this meta for 11th times now.. still no turtle. no tv, no bear. make homer something something XD
Competitive has toxicity mostly due to balance being neglected in the past years, EoD seemingly improved this side of the community according to my observation.
@@deceaseyang6499 Then wait for the damn nerf and let others have their fun (and i am saying that without having the turtle either). I even enjoy the failure since the set piece is great. I can wait a week or two for the turtle if it comes to that. The only thing that make a failure annoying is the people bitching about it. There is not need to be unpleasant. People make it unpleasant with their attitude. Anet has already said they are monitoring the success rate and will adjust accordingly. This meltdown and exaggeration is just annoying and serves none. But that is how we were always as a community. Entitled children with no intention to wait for things to be done properly and we just lose our shit from the first few days.
@@mormegil231 if you really enjoy failure. Perhaps you should try raid. I mean raid without any armor. Naked with weapons. I guarantee you this will dramatically up the difficulty. If you find that too easy you could also try T4 fractal without agony resistance... I hope these grant you the failure you so desired. GL
P.s. i don't find fun from failure. I have done and failed this meta 11 times. Waste good chunk of my life already.
I love these real talk videos. You are such a voice of reason with well thought out arguments and examples.
I got turtle 4 days after release, it was hard as hell to get a good squad. My friend who is not dedicated to GW2 as i am told me "I give up, call me when they nerf it". He didn't quit GW2 but he was just demoralised and before EoD launched we was excited as hell.
I used to really respect Teapot for his knowledge of the game but his comments here are not constructive for the game.
The fact that people are making LFG posts where they're requiring you to link Legendary Insights, which were up until now exclusive to raids, and kicking an entire elite spec for a piece of OPEN WORLD content should tell you all you need to know about how well this is going.
To be fair its a beast of their own making really. It all started with the mass nerfs expansion start. No one that has spent so long working on their builds this expansion should have to redo their whole build due to extreme nerfs. Some people aint got time for that..esp after spending so much gold on specific gear. Some just move on... I mean i could go on about he jade bots and the turle and the fishing and their actual uses in game but like i said in another post.. this whole expansion is just bizzare front to back.
wtf.................
This is the minority though, I have killed this multiple times without any of this requierements, the people that use LI to get people in are just gatekeeprs, no need to do this to finish the meta.
If this meta wasn't a dps check there would be no problem. Surely ANet could have come up with a challenging meta event without requiring people to go to snowcrows beforehand.
@@Quplas You don't have to go to Snowcrows at all, wtf. The Boss HP was leaked already, in a 50 player squad everyone needs to do exactly 7k dps constantly to beat it. Better rush to snowcrows and train 12h a day to get my 7k benchmark ready.
The problem is people can't or don't want to dodge anything at all or press more then 1 button.
Oh man, this was eye-opening to me. I got my DE kill with a HS organized group and I pretty much felt like TPot, but watching the whole of this conversation reminded me of what MOST people in Guild Wars 2 are and like to do. It's not the people who push their limits. I like to do that, I like to get good, but most people just enjoy the open world and the social aspect.
I feel like the Meta is pretty awesome as it is, but it definitely should not gate access to the turtle. Also completing the meta event should be achieveablle for everyone, no matter their dps and also for total PUGs without commanders. In that case they will just get bronze and like almost no rewards.... Show them the fight in the open world and let them see that IF THEY WANT TO PUSH the limit, they can organize a group and try to get gold level. Gold could even be more difficult as it is right now. But let everyone finish the event for the lore and the turtle. Just not give them significant rewards.
Disagree on the meta section. Hard metas that require *some* level of organization are absoutely fun. Putting the mount behind it was questionable and now that it's been changed, it's fine. 3 weeks later and I do it daily, very rarely do I see a group that fails during not-ass-o-clock hours... as long as it isn't absolutely mandatory for a core feature, it's fine. Need to do decent damage but don't play well? Literally go look up autoattack mechanist build that can still pull 20k without much input. No problem. Get your lore.
@@NazzyDragon 4 weeks after your comment, here:
I am sad to say, that you represent an absolute minority of people, who do it daily.
Most of camp “git gud” has simply….left. Returned to raids and fractals, because DE is a huge time sink.
Most of team “nerf this” has also left. Sure, some actually “got gud” but DE is lacking the numbers of people willing to play it now, depending on time of day.
Most metas before evening fail because simply no organized squad happens.
Then you’ll have 4 hours of absolute bottlenecking because 2-3 guilds will come to organize it, and after that it’s dead again.
Keep in mind that some people cannot make those 4 hours because of work and life.
Like me: after I got the turtle mount, I still returned to DE because it’s fun. It’s challenging. But nowadays it’s not feasible to do, because I miss out on those 4h because of work.
Even if I try to commander and organize, there’s simply not enough people to succeed. And the reputation scares most of them away.
And I say this even though Anet has already balanced DE, since this discussion. AND added an additional way to obtain mount.
For me the problem isnt the difficulty, but the insanely long rampup / pre events... for my ONE kill so far I spent around 3 hours (!) for one try... that's how long it took to get everyone on the map... get 10 events for everyone... get them charged up on offensive/defensive protocolls... get them to discord... get explanations and groups set up... and then FINALLY do the event itself was supereasy. But can you imagine spending 2h or more and then failing in the end with like 1-5% hp left on boss? Would you do it again? And again? And again? I will not.
1 simple fix would be: if you fail, you can just RESTART the meta at the final stage. like the collect the color thingies phase.
I failed 3 times with 1-5% but done it the fourth time. Was a bit painful though. :D
yeah i really think people like teapot doesn't seem to get that the setup etc is really one of the problems. he spent 20 mins explaining how to get a 100% win rate map happening, with sqds etc. but that is like listing a fractal grp for each 5 man subsqd. making sure they each have right boons/support/dps.
Personally, I think the difficultly is fine. But there shouldn't be a timer, and the rewards need to be a lot better.
@@JuniperoHendricks It's "easy" when you're a raider with a guild, he plays the game in a "bubble".
Even triple trouble with a guild running it and leading the groups, fails from time to time.
To be honest, I'm not sure why they didn't just grant the turtle from doing the hatchery events. You know, where there are actual turtles.
I also assumed it would be there at first
I played the meta over the weekend. No sleep, a lot of tries, more than 50 consecutive hours and in the end I managed to complete it. The meta is fun, have a ton of mechanics to make it interesting, the music is awesome. I will never come back to it, but It was fun
Conq bro.But saying "I will never come back to it" proves idea behind to meta is failed.With every month players who wanna do this event will drop and new players will suffer for it.Thats why A.net should change to meta for make it replayable
No meta is "fun" if you end with "I will never do this again" That kinda goes against the entire word of Fun. Usually people do things that are not rewarding if its still fun enough. The fact that people will never do this again, means in the end, the truth is, it was not fun.
Dear lord
Congrats and you nailed the point. Good player who got the Turtle are not coming back to help...... sad.
@@Goremize That's what I call my 'Again' ranking. I rank all video game content by whether it ends with me saying "That was awesome, I'd like to do it again!" vs. "Dear Lord, I never want to do that again!" :)
I really like the idea of having the gold/silver/bronze rewards. Though the event probably can also use some rebalancing as certain phases *cough*tail*cough* essentially seem to extend the fight and make it even hard or impossible for more organized groups to complete.
Also, regarding the griffon and the skyscale, they weren't gated off by a 2h+ long run into a brick wall as far as I remember. Sure it took time and effort, but most of these were incremental or could be circumvented. Like 250 gold for the griffon was a lot for me, but every day I got a bit closer. The acquisition was more like a slope. And the few items that were behind a challenging event weren't like 2h, it was a 10 minute bounty.
Team nerf? Team git gud? I’m team, “if I wanted to raid, I’d go raid.”
I don’t care if the reward for completing this meta were a legendary of choice - I do not have the time or ability to sit for 2 hours straight uninterrupted when I have a disabled wife and autistic daughter at home on top of a 48-56 hour per week job. I get to play in small spurts where interruptions are mostly beyond my control. If my daughter goes meltdown mode, or my wife needs help, I have to stop immediately. I’d be a risk to the “group” the moment I signed up. If I have to stop in the middle of Triple Trouble, everyone can go on without me and still succeed.
At the end of the day, I’m not bummed I won’t ever get the turtle. Like, at all. I’m more bummed that raiding has forced its way into open world. Now there is content in the game-mode I play most that I cannot do - not out of execution on my part, but because of the rules surrounding it.
teapot needs to understand that not all people are on his level of dedication and that is ok not to be on it couse gw2 never pushed the player on the content, gw2 is all about freedom of choice, if i want to get a challenge i go raids or fractals, if dont i just level up alters or farm gold, thats why this game is so great
Wow many people don't realize that most players don't sweat the game. Or it's that they think that 10-15k dps is average. Josh Strife Hays said something that makes a lot of sense... A casual player will not look through guides, through video, or really go through their build. Most casual players have 1-2 hours a day as you said, and that's the biggest audience. It's safe to say that no one in these comments, or your chat is a casual including myself. But because the only people we see around here are hardcore players, it's easy to think that your average casual player does that 10-15k dps. Yeah that might be casual in the hardcore player base, but in the casual player base that's a godsend. It was a nice listen, this video. Interesting how many different POVs there are about this topic.
I have to say, I gained much respect for Mukluk after watching this video. Not only a pro gamer, but also a decent Human being. Thank you :)
that is exactly the problem... Mukluk you really understand us casual player.
Like I posted on Reddit
So I came from FFXIV and do a lot of high end raiding there. GW2 is really unique in that it's the only MMO on the market that has such a major emphasis on an open world and players being able to wander into an ongoing meta event. As you play through the game, you're a very subtly encouraged to partake in metas you see around the area and help out people even if it looks like they have it handled. Why? Because you can get rewarded too for helping out, even if you're just a rezbot for 90% of the fight. So when a brand new meta comes out that has an expansion defining feature locked behind it. People are going to want to do that meta and they'll show up to do it. By having what is essentially an open world raid happen in the open world then punishing players for not 'being raid ready' is a very dumb idea that makes very little sense.
I understand the mindset of players who are happy we're getting open world content that forces you to play really good but the problem is that's not what GW2 is about. Cooperation and everyone pitching in, no matter how little, to take down a meta is what GW2 is about. By telling more casual or lesser skilled players to either 'git gud' or to never have a chance at using a brand new mount + mastery track is a very short sighted way of thinking. High end players are a very small minority, even in games with major systems in place for them such as WoW/FFXIV. Casual players are the bulk of your game's population and by throwing shade at them you're digging a hole that Warcraft players dug years ago.
Muk has a lot of great ideas to appease both sides and make everyone happy. ANET should really embrace their mistakes and rethink their plan or else the biggest selling point for EoD (Cantha is very popular but the amount of people who played GW1 is not as big as you think) will be moot and ANET will have thrown a lot of money into the boiler for no tangible benefit.
This here, I don't care for gw2 raiding. I raid in WoW if I wanted to get in discord and do organized raid I wouldn't play gw2.. I play it for the very open world casual play and being able to collect rewards for laid back play. And gw2 has best pvp in WvW. I have gave this meta 4 tries now, and I want to do it before completing the story for the achievements. Soo I haven't progressed. So atm I just not playing gw2 and playing elden ring.
I don't raid, if I do strikes or fractals I find chill runs. I like prancing around just doing stuff, that's the content I'm in the game for. I ended up maining scourge for a while just to be rezbot at events, picking up other players so they can go back to doing their thing.
Frankly if this was a strike or something behind a way chiller meta, I'd be training full time to get in because the expansion got me super hyped. Right now I just kinda want a refund for EoD because I can't even play "Canach says" or do random JPs without someone bashing casuals in map chat
Excellent points. I haven't seen any counter-discussions that address really addresses them in a way that seems feasible.
You got it. That's it. I hate raids. They destroyed gw. Before raids everyone could play what ever he wants. Now you are forced to play special builds, buy most expensive runes and sigills, and everyone is toxic to. You, if u don't play 100% snowcrow level.
And the best: most of the people are bad wihtout supporters who carry them. Before raids most people used berserk and are forced to stay alive by dodging and so on. Now they cry if there's no healer. Gw2 goes more bad every add on...
Very much agreed. You articulated this perfectly. I've been playing since beta and one of my favorite aspects of the game is watching swarms of people rushing in to fight the big boss or contribute to an event. Some coordination is great, but being able to just stop what you're doing for a moment and help out is what made me fall in love with this game. Requiring raid-level precision and prep among 50 or so people (mostly randos) in open world content is insane! And people probably wouldn't be as upset if the turtle wasn't locked behind it. They've added a new way to get the turtle egg now, but I fear that very few people will bother with the meta at all, even though it's pretty fun. It takes too long and is asking for too much out of the average player. It's depressing to see the community tear itself apart like this.
Turtle mount is honestly the most casual focused mount, its so dumb for it to be locked behind the hardest content in the game.
I literally only want to turtle so that I can do turtle tours for new players, including my grandma, who loves turtles. And after 8 tries (yes 14 hours) I am still unable to do that.
I agree with you @muk about the box art rewards. Imagine if we needed to finish dragon stand to unlock gliding, or if we needed to do the Desolation and Vabbi event chains to unlock mounts at all. It's ridiculous to lock this behind something that cannot be done either solo, or somewhat reliably, with a relatively disorganized group.
I do not think that there should be nerfs to the fight itself, but I do think that there should be changes.
Namely, there should be less rng in the bosses attack patterns (doing 12 bites in a row, swapping sides and being invuln is ridiculous and unfair, and entirely rng, no player control at all) [I've had more than one pull, in the hardstuck discord organized groups, where we have failed AT 1% because of this rng invuln pattern]
There should be a bit more leeway in the timer. I like the suggestion about gold silver and bronze rewards, but have also considered a soft enrage phase, where the boss gets powered up slowly the longer past the timer you go, allowing a properly configured group to squeeze some extra time, likely all the extra time you need.
And finally, the overall meta time should be reduced. 2 hours is FAR too long. It should be at most 1hr long regardless if which camp your are in, this is a consensus, it takes to long to do. Remove low and medium prep entirely, just make each zone need to fill one bar to get prep, and then have a few extra events to give more stacks of the loot buff. Speed up the escort events and the magic collection phases, make the focal point of the entire meta the boss fight, and not the prep and then a literal 10-30 minute waiting game...
I like the idea of Gold/Silver/Bronze reward for time, and also the idea of doing something to make the attack pattern less RNG.. both those are really good suggestions
I think also having each stage of the escort give 1 stack of the buff would mean you wouldn't have to be in the pre-event SO long.
Honestly, I hate most every invulnerability mechanic ever. They're pretty much always nonsensical as far as any gameplay immersion and break the flow of things rather than just giving you a pause to catch your breath (and cooldowns and weapon swaps).
So, yeah, my few experiences with the last fight are rather frustrating as you're spending a lot more time running around dodging mechanics and trying to find where and when to do damage than actually fighting.
Omg, doing turtle tours for your grandma sounds so sweet! Did you eventually manage to do that?
Hey, thanks for calling out the social anxiety people. I never group. Ever. It's the reason why GW2 is the only game for me. I can have all the fun of playing with people without having to interface with them. I don't group because I /DO NOT/ want to be the reason you fail your content. I'm a scrub, know it and don't want to bring you down.
Yeah. I think social anxiety is only part of why I don't get into groups much at all. Time constraints and mood and etc all having to line up with others' schedules. And it's one thing to drop into a squad doing something on a map for a little while versus getting into Discord, an entirely separate program, and figure out all of that, for even more time commitment to get something coordinated.
Hi there, same here. The reason me and my friend aren't in any guilds or do raids/fractals/strikes etc... It's not like we don't want to, rather we don't want to be judged and get discouraged from the negative encounters. And the LFG system is not friendly at all to people who have never done endgame content. I love GW2 and I don't want elitism/toxicity directed at me to be a reason for me to quit.
I'm the same. If discord or a mic is required for anything then I'm not doing it.
I feel you my friend, I quit pvp and fractal over this.
@@shirayuucchi4031 Just the other day I quit the only active guild I had joined, because one of the members decided that he is offended by the way I talk, calling me names and told me to play on a different server. You literally could never know what's gonna trigger some random guy on the internet.
Really enjoy the fight and did finally get a success after 14 hours of attempts but what you said in the video is 100% correct - it doesn't matter how well you play when you're relying on 49 other people to know what they're doing
I've done the meta about 8-10 times before I finally got a successful run, and I haven't been back since. One because of the chance of failure, but also because of just how toxic some of the maps have been before, and especially after the boss. The fight itself is amazing, it's some of the most fun i've had doing open world in quite a long time, but after the first 2 days of failures I started to resent being in a squad with so many people who just couldn't understand what was going on, or when pre-nerf people were even trolling the green circle phase by intentionally not doing it to cause chaos.
I can probably say that this is the single best meta in the game with the worst possible execution I've ever seen. having 2 hours of my time robbed when the pre-meta goes so well only to fail with literally more than 20% of the boss HP feels like a slap in the face.
My younger sister bought me EOD as a bday gift last year, we both play gw2 and we're really excited to get the turtle mount (we had so much fun using the mount during beta). She's currently on break from playing since she's busy at her job so I promised to make time during holy week to help her get her own turtle. Turns out, to unlock the collection, a very hard meta that will need hours will be needed. Both of us thought that there's just part of the story needed to finish to unlock the collection since that is how its always been in past. I tried many times the meta, im not a hard core raider or vet in that field but i regularly play wvw (got good gears for different roles and build necessary) and is very good at following commanders during gvg and since there's usually just PUG during the meta, it's very hard and hours and hours are being wasted just to get the egg.
My problem is that my sis isn't like that (she's just a casual player who wants to have fun and get a cute giant turtle mount, sometimes, she even find Skyrim and Dragonage hard so when she's playing them i have to takeover during some boss battles). She's really disappointed when i messaged her on how difficult it will be on unlocking the mount, so i told her we'll just concentrate on getting her skyscale first since it will be far more useful in the long run.
I had to show kp. We got it done but I was so bummed. I thought of all my guildies who haven't done it, and don't really do raids. A moment that should've been glorious felt shameful because of how exclusionary it was.
Absolutely agree that such design is hurting the game. As a high tier fractal player with a mix of ascended and legendary gear, I am scared and put off by the controversies surrounding the topic. Currently progressed to the third EoD map and relucent to move forward. Why should I? I have Elden Ring, Horizon Forbidden West, Lost Ark, Triangle strategy and more to play. It is not like I am against getting good, as I repeat the die and win cycle for countless times in Elden Ring. It is the design that some randos can screw the entire group up which angers players. Gaming time is precious, and we have better options.
When people ask me about GW2 I generally refer to it as the casuals MMO. The skill ceiling for most content is not that high so it's more accessible to more people. The full time working dad of four kids can still get Best In Slot gear with limited play time. There is also content for the people who can invest hours upon hours into the game. The problem with the Dragons End meta, it doesn't allow that casual player to be able to succeed in how Anet has allowed them to play from the start.
I don't think the meta needs to be nerfed to the ground. Honestly, I think just added an extra minute or two to the timer would fix over half the attempts I've made. But the player base as a whole is not as hardcore as other MMOs out there, which is a part of why I enjoy GW2 so much.
The turtle does incredible structure dmg. All the stuff in drizzlewood, the doors/shields in DE. Otherwise you've put to word exactly what I've been thinking. I had to put 3hrs of work for some crappy loot and to begin a money sink collection for a mount
Is it usable in all maps? How's the combat as it's a combat mount.
@@occy127 It's useable in every map, and as a combat mount it does... ok? You really need to have a 2nd person aboard to man the artillery cannons, but even then, the ammunition recharge takes too long imo for it to be any useful beyond the initial barage/belly flop.
lol 53g money sink give me a break.
@@occy127 your character does stronger aoe damage than the turtle
@@occy127 For the driver is boring as hell, you get 1 skill on a 4 1/2 second cooldown with a massive animation lock.
Gunner is kinda fun, you can almost shoot everywhere and speed up the turtle for a short period.
Gating this mount behind what is essentially an open-world raid, which has inevitably drawn all the gatekeeping a$$holes away from instanced raids and into this open-world raid, coupled with the completely uncalled for and out of nowhere nerfs to self sustain traits and runes should tell everyone what Anet thinks of casual solo players.
I think we've hit a tipping point here.
Hi Muk, I don't want to go into the topic of the video as i think you have plenty of valid points there and it has been discussed at length. I just want to clarify something i think you are misunderstanding. At 46:40 you go into some discussion where you shared some groups of players under the umbrella of casual players, and it seems you are under the impression that beetle racers and griffon flyers fall under that category. As the leader of the largest beetle community in game, I want to clear that up. While yes, you can see beetle racing as "weird" (it kind of is, really), it is not casual. The beetle racing community is founded on competitive principles and my members are putting in many hours to perfect their craft and become better than their peers. Just like raiders, or PvPers, or GvGers or any other dedicated community does. We are also good friends with the griffon flyers and the same goes for them, and no they do not use any hacks to stay in the air for that long, it's just good old practice and dedication again. And yes, we gathered and cleared the dragons end meta without much issues or drama, we like to challenge ourselves and we like dragons end for it. We are not the casuals you might think we are - I hope this clears up that misunderstanding.
The people that enjoy their mounts or decorating their guild halls also enjoy doing various other things in the game. We all play the same game, and regardless of which community we belong to, some people enjoy challenging themselves and some do not. I wouldn't generalize raiders as unable to handle their mounts since i know a good portion of the active racers are also active raiders.
I apologize if you thought I was truly insulting you all. I mentioned multiple groups of people in jest to try and lighten the mood a bit. GuildMM and his spreadsheets, you guys and your mounts, etc. It was only meant to get a laugh and move on.
1) You guys are amazing and I hope you keep doing what you are doing
2) we have a roller beetle track in one of our guild halls called "break a bone speedway" . I absolutely suck at it, I know how tough it is
3) I make similar other jokes from time to time, like "oh wow BOTH of the guild wars 1 players aren't going to like this!" (I know gw1 has more than 2 people playing it) but if you are new to my channel me joking may not have been obvious.
Sorry again it you felt I was coming at you.
@@MuklukUA-cam All good, it did not feel as an insult at all! Just thought it needed that clarification. Love your content, keep it up!
I feel like folks like Teapot are so immersed in the world of players who spend hours and hours in the game that they can no longer see players like myself who are lucky if we can play for 30 minutes at a stretch.
Imagine having no time but want to play an mmorpg. Smoothbrainer
@@yourealittlebitfat4344 Actually I've been having lots of fun in GW2 for many, many years. On days I don't have much time I just do the three dailies for a bit of gold and achievement points. On days I do have more time I go do open world content like bosses and events or I just chill and level an alt, work on a story, or chip away at map completion. I love playing "fashion wars".
GW2 has been very accommodating for my playstyle and time constraints which I've rewarded it by buying expansions and Gem Store items. Unlike other games it hasn't demanded I spend hours upon hours of my time to feel as if I'm getting any enjoyment or progress. Absolutely nothing "smoothbrain" about it.
@@DezzieYT GW2 also doesn't demand a monthly subscription fee, which makes it an attractive choice for people who want to play an MMO but can't justify a monthly sub fee for a game that we may have to go days or weeks without playing.
On top of that, this game is horizontal progression so catching up if we fall behind isn't a terribly daunting thing. I started GW2 14 months ago and have all maps completed, all mounts, all masteries, 12K AP and 3 Legendaries built.
I managed all that on roughly 12 hours of play per week. Folks like us are more than likely the majority case for GW2.
Why do you feel like everything should be readily available to you in an mmo where you barely have time to engsge with it
well but you have to understand that a MMORPG can't cater towards people that can only play half an hour at a time
that would make the game the absolute snooze fest
Watched the whole video, and I'm really surprised (probably shouldn't be surprised at all) that some players kept arguing with the logic of your point of view (which I share 100%). The event is beautiful and challenging, and there is a need for more content like this in the game, but it was implemented badly by putting it into an open world meta, and gating the Siege Turtle behind it's successful completion is just one of the dumbest things Anet has done in the last 10 years. This was supposed to be the year GW2 finally got the recognition it deserves, and a great chance to grow the game population, perhaps even double, or triple the number of players who login each week, but it is mistakes like this one that could ruin Anet's chances during these critical first few weeks of the expansion. Anet needs all of the positive press and free "word of mouth" advertising that they can get, and this problem is hurting the future of the game, and possibly the studio. Teapot is smart enough and knowledgeable enough about GW2 to know that your arguments are valid, and that some kind of change to fix this situation is urgently needed, so I'm a little surprised that he contradicted you a couple times in this video.
"Weather you're on team blah or team blubb, pleas recognize there is another group of PEOPLE on the other side" is good advice. Not only for Gw2 or games in general but for live. Empathy folks. YOUR view/taste /idea/experience of anything is YOURS, not THE way. I always marvel how hard this seems to for so many people. This makes me sad.
This is exactly my view regarding Dragon's End Meta. I'm an average PvE enjoyer who do raids, fractals, have titles, do decent in dps etc, but like you said, the difficulty of the meta and the pressure feels like I'm doing a raid and I know not everyone do raids or even enjoy it. And to have a "dps check", raid level of mechanic awareness, ON A META EVENT, it's asking too much from the community, might as well advertise it as a 50+ man raid.
I do really like the meta, the mechanics, the visuals and all, but I also have been doing it with my guild who approaches it like we approach a raid, and this isn't the case for many other players. I really want Anet to at least address that this is in fact an issue and fix it, however they want to fix it. Thank you for speaking out about the meta, Muk! \0/
So you want it to be like every other meta? Like TD,AB? Just to out a v mark for a daily meta run?
@@svarog8253 No, I like the meta, I prefer it not be nerfed but still the divide between players is obviously an issue so Anet have to address it how ever they want to address it. Either catering to the pro pve players by giving better loots, or the more casual player by nerfing the mech or making it easier to at least get the mount, or other approaches that might be totally new. Based on the design of the new strikes and the open world metas, anet definitely intended to put harder pve contents for more hardcore pve players, and I like that personally, but not everyone share the same sentiment and this leads to a toxic divisive community which GW2 aren't famous for. Anet have to quickly do something regarding the meta before they're losing more players that got disappointed from endless failed meta and not getting their mount, thus affecting their view of the new expansion, and anet itself.
Honestly, I don't mind any changes, I'll still enjoy it. I'm just an average pve enjoyer hehe
The real question of whether the Meta needs to be nerfed is this: If the turtle mount was not tied to the Meta would so many people be willing to go through the time and difficulty of completing it? If the answer is "no" then you have your answer.
@@DezzieYT It doesn't necessarily need to be nerfed, they just needed a decent reward for time. Fail or Succeed.
Man...Muk you really are the man of the masses. You understand how I feel on whats exactly happening right now.
This is a very crucial moment for Anet to really communicate on what they want or won’t do, or it will only result where everyone is just losing.
I have to agree with muk here. 1st playthrough of EoD was fun, good time all around. But the longer I've been in Cantha the more bugs and problems I keep finding. Yesterday I was in Echovald fishing waiting for the tengu quest chain all day, it never triggered. When I realized there was a tag that wasn't moving I went to look. They were at a bugged event farming kills on endlessly spawning brotherhood at the forever tree. As for the Metas, I've only ever been able to complete 1 and that was the Aetherblades, and chat was flooded with "don't touch the chest or you'll bug the boss." There's just too much to be said about the problems that keep popping up. I end up turning to fishing just to avoid the drama
Hey o/ I just wanted to pop in and say that I agree with you about the endless bugs of npcs, metas and events being frustrating and exhausting. I have yet to actually encounter the event to clear the water purifiers in Seitung province for an archievement, after a week. And while you never claimed to not be patient I just wanted to share my experience with you. Games, especially mmos come with tons of bugs when new content is released and if it's not ingame it might be the servers disconnecting or maps being full. I think what you and me should try to do, since the bugs really bother us and kind of 'ruin the experience' is to just wait a few weeks before we start our adventure.
I have been playing since the original gw2 came out but have always come in for any dlc a month later. This is the first time I played on release date and every meta was bugged. Progress was bugged, cutscenes weren't playing and all in all I hate myself for not being patient enough to just wait a week or two. What my point is with the bugs and people complaing that they 'are still not fixed' is simple. Anet is fixing bugs, but most of them right now are crash related bugs, major game breaking bugs and while it sucks that I can't finish my archievement for the crypts in echovilds because the chests after the puzzle don't open, it's not game breaking.
So I'd just takea deep breath and either wait a bit or do the things that you can/has been fixed by now. I wish you a lot of fun adventuring through cantha. I don't know about you but I love New Kainengs design. Am a bit sad it's the biggest city without having even a bank for us or crafting spots (yes I know they used Aborstone for it but still.) so it feels a bit empty, but it is so beautiful.
Have a nice day
@@Shyrahja real quick I want to clarify that I'm not frustrated or exhausted. I've had this pointed out to me a lot that "it was just released, there's going to be bugs" and I understand that. But that is not a reason to not talk about these things.
There was an incident back when ANet had accidentally removed a memorial NPC while fiddling with old code, they were completely unaware of it at the time and didn't know until a user on reddit had mentioned it. And ANet thanked the user and got the NPC back.
My point is that we should be angry or frustrated, but we shouldn't be accepting or dismissive either. We need to be Nuetral, we need to talk about these things. Cause if nothing is ever said, then nothing will ever be done.
Also the 2nd map does have a bank with a giant vault door, I stumbled across it which exploring. It was inside 1 of the larger buildings somewhere in the center of the map. The map feels more packed to me then the other 3, but that might just be that the events always feel really frequent there
the guy who kept saying it isnt as hard as raids completely 100% missed muks point, he just wanted to wave his "i know wtf im doing" shit in everyones facing trying to force himself to be right when hes wrong lmao
Don't mind the challenge. I do mind the limited zone population limit, the long length of the event, and the fact that individual players could fuck it up for every else. Those are elements that shouldn't be part of a public zone meta.
I agree with Muks' take on this issue. Teapot shits on the gw2 player base on the daily, so it's not a surprise that his opinion is elitist.
I absolutely do not do that, that is a blatant lie lmao
@@MightyTeapot Me saying "on the daily" is a little hyperbolic but I had to stop following your stream due to all the negativity. Tea times were filled with toxicity. Your daily stream had frequent comments like "if you're in gold rank, you are objectively bad" ..."you're worse than bots"..."most gw2 players don't know how to use W,A,S,D" ..."I hate seeing all the shiny fashion"...etc. Toxic comments. I'm really not trying to be a dick. It just felt like your attitude was, "if people aren't up to me and my friends level, they're just bad".
@@Apheria_Wren Those statements are true, and yes most players do not understand basic game mechanics, this is actually more of a reality check for my audience tbh who are often oblivious to just how the average player actually experiences the game. Yes players in gold do not understand the game very well and bots can get to plat, it's obviously a bit of a meme way to say it but those statements are objectively true
@@MightyTeapot So you need to retract your "blatant lie" comment since you just admitted that you DO say lots of toxic things about the player base on your stream. Thanks for proving my original point. I'm out...bye Hardsuck.
This is far from the only topic where people can be quite insulting and disrespectful and toxic while thinking they're just being honest or truthful or that their opinion is an objectively true fact or whatever. And so get offended when they get a hostile reaction in response.
Totally agree with you. We shouldn't be broken into tribalism and telling others to "get gud." It makes the game look terrible when we say that we're one of the friendliest communities in the MMO space.
I do feel like ArenaNet has failed to give us progressively more difficult open world metas and instead just dumped people into Dragon's End and expected them to do well. Kudos to the commanders who have the patience to lead these squads to victory time and again.
I'm up to 24 failures so far on Dragon's End. I love the fight and it is an amazing spectacle of fighting a dragon on top of a tower in the sky, but its extremely frustrating when you spent nearly three hours doing this one meta and get nothing out of it.
I didn't even play the meta yet, but I gotta say, I was floored by the sudden "here are fractal mechanics" stuff in the story.
I could get through it with the probably suboptimal build I made, but I can't help but wonder if a returning player that never touched fractals wouldn't be surprised at the sudden unexplained mechanics. You don't get much nightmare fractal bullet hell in the open world.
And I gotta say, I do like stuff getting a bit more complex than just "hit and dodge", but it feels like your one character needs to be able to do absolutely everything, from healing through constant damage, to tanking everything, to dealing with projectile deflect, break bars and to some extent combo fields (not required, obv).
Just kinda feels like the experience is intended either for a jack-of-all-trades or for more than one person, to go smoothly. Makes me wish for a GW1 style companion npc that just pops a cc on my command or plops a combo field (on command, rather than wait 15 seconds for them to pity-drop it).
Can we please stop spreading the myth that Gw2 is one of the friendliest communities in the mmo space, it just isn't true. There is an illusion of friendliness because people for the most part don't have to interact with each other in any way. This becomes awfully apparent when playing other mmos e.g., FF14 that have communities which can interact with each other without acting like angry children 99% of the time. This myth about the Gw2 community really needs to die out.
@@bjarke8579 I was not spreading a myth, just stating what many people have spoken about the game itself. I don't necessarily 100% agree with the statement myself.
The truth is, there is no such thing as the "friendliest community" in any online or offline space. There are just communities of people, some may be better than others in their own way. Even in FF14, I have met some of the saltiest people there who scream and yell when you fail a raid mechanic. Even in Deep Rock Galactic, a game completely about coop mining, I have met trolls.
People acting like children is not new, to Guild Wars or even in real life. If you gather enough people together, there are bound to be a few who will troll others, who will enjoy making others suffer. This is just a faucet of human nature.
I've had a lot of thoughts watching this and thought I would air them. *To be up-front, while I agree on the siege turtle front, I'm definitely on the "dnt nerf it!" camp:*
First of all, I have to admit I was utterly unaware about the size of the divide here, which is why I made sure to watch the whole video. I played the expac really slowly, taking my time and enjoying it, and so did my mates. And when I arrived at the final map and meta I was absolutely amazed by the scale, music, and *difficulty* of the encounter. So did them, and we continued to love it the rest of that day 'til I got my kill on my 7th try. It was obvious to us that this was intended to be a very challenging meta, and that it had failed for many people, but we definitely didn't know so many felt so strongly against it.
For what it's worth, I do think you inflate the difficulty of this meta somewhat. For most people it's only been 2 days since they arrived in this map, the community will likely learn. Additionally, much of the "prepwork" you mention is nearly entirely the responsibility of the commanders, and those are NOT average players. Truth is, the average player just plays a DPS build, and his only responsiblity is making sure he has food/map buffs, and follows the relatively simple mechanics of the meta. The fight isn't "complicated", it's just tight, you have to be on the ball and do damage. By contrast, raid CMs are FAR more demanding for the average participant - yes I've done them too, but completely disagree on that front. The added difficulty here, ie the management and organization of a 50-man squad, lies squarely on the shoulder of the commander/s. That might be unfair for them, but in general they're people that pick up those jobs cuz they're confident, and luckily, only 1 out of 50 people need to do it. It's not representative of the average experience.
My main issue with the idea of nerfing this meta (not talking about the siege turtle issue, agree with you on that front), is that there is, and has always been, a serious shortage of high-end hardcore content for the parts of the community that love that sort of play. The only things available for years have been raids and high-end fractals, and those were seldomly updated. Now we get strikes sure, but it's pretty much a continuation of the raid system. Not since before the HoT meta nerfs have we had an open-world meta of this caliber!
An analogy that came to my mind for those that complain about the meta's difficulty is, imagine a restaurant that has a great menu with 50 items. They then decide to add a vegetarian option for those 2% of customers who are vegetarians. Then the rest of the customers go up in a uproar because they dnt want to eat vegeterian food! There are already so many casually-geared open-world metas in the game, what's one more going to change about the daily reality of a casual player? One more meta on the meta train? yay...The closest thing in difficulty is probably Chak Gerent, that fails sometimes, but I can't even remember the last time I failed it. Nothing fills the space this meta does in today's GW2 and people want to take it away? Especially considering that the minority of players that love hardcore content also tend to be those that play the most, advertise it the most, and spend the most money; nerfing the meta seems a terrible idea.
I think the *MAIN POINT* of all this that everyone can agree on is that *WE NEED AN ALTERNATIVE ROUTE FOR THE SIEGE TURTLE* . Through another npc, or a lower difficulty bronze tier like you suggested, or whatever else. While I don't think the siege turtle is as important as gliding or the original mount system were (because it's not a new system, just an addition to one), I do empathize with, and understand the point that siege turtles are one of the main reasons people bought the game, and its acquisition is currently unnecessarily hard for those people that just want the mount. Additonally, it's creating undue division in the community as a result of it.
That said, I also *DO NOT THINK THE META SHOULD BE NERFED* . I don't know what will come of the future, maybe the community will learn and this will become a particularly hard meta that people still consistently kill, or maybe you were right and once people have the turtle, there wont be enough people to clear it as a pug anymore, which would be a problem and then require fixing. This will probably end up depending on the economy of the rewards we get from the meta, if it doesn't suffice, rewards will need boosting. But we're not there yet, and maybe never will be so, for now, DON'T TOUCH IT.
People seem to forget it’s not just the meta…. It’s the entire prep and pre meta that is needed on top of the actual fight. All that time spent ingame only for it to fail… At this time people have to join early to avoid being unable to enter maps which are participating, it’s a roll of the dice if you get a good group or not if you’re not a person with LI and then it’s quite a lot of time of trying to buff yourself up, boost the map to high on all points and then waiting for it to start. Some people dont have that time to spend in game.
Add to this the gatekeeping of the community, the cohesion required in a PUBLIC 50 man group and your asking way to much of the community that as Muk pointed out, has been playing a certain way for years which are then required to step up to almost raid like tactics and player performance. It just doesn’t work. You end up pissing off all of your player base because everyone is fighting with each other and they lack the motivation to try or repeat the meta again.
If I hadn’t been part of progression raiding in other MMOs, this would have pissed me off to high hell and back even more because I don’t play Gw2 to learn how to bloody raid in it. I play it casually and to chill. I fish for like two hours straight a pop. I don’t know my DPS nor do I want to because it’s made me toxic in the other MMOs I’ve played. And guess what, you’re required to play one of the new strikes on top of this to finish getting the turtle, it’s too much.
Ive completed the meta, and I do enjoy the mechanics (tho not the frequency or randomness of it) but it’s certainly something I won’t repeat until something changes because the rewards kinda suck for the time sink and there is no reason for me to try again.
So basically players like me and my fiancee who started the game few months back and just enjoying the game on their own pace have to RUSH through the content now to get the turtle?
We just had the time to do the open world and still doing the story, haven't touched upon fractals, raids, dungeons, metas etc. because we wanted to do the story first.
And now you tell me we have to RUSH through everything and join the meta early still being a noob and probably fail the meta for everybody else cause of incompetence we still have or just don't bother and never get the turtle because when we reach the point of us being competent enough, there won't be any players to do the meta? Great design. And there are players who say GET GOOD and do this now? Yeah, sure, getting good immediately now.
Good joke guys, gatekeeping is the worst thing a community can do. I didn't switch from cs:go to MMO to get told get good again. In an MMO. MMO which should look for longevity while having the "do it now or never" activities.
Great.
If it gets to that point I'm sure they would make another method of obtaining the turtle. I'm in the same boat as you.
As someone who identifies as a casual player (I don't do strikes, raids, fractals, any of that...just open world meta stuff and mess around with alts) I honestly love the meta. I don't like the community at each other's throats, but from my end as a "don't nerf" player, my annoyance from the other side is that outcry to nerf the meta is asking that something be taken away from me. I am so happy that there is finally an easily accessible form of challenging content, regardless of all of the chaos factors that go into what that may be. Literally ever other map is a free meta event where you can just stand there and click a chest at the end. I did them for gold or whatever in the past, but ever since I got to Dragon's End I spend all day every day when I'm playing just doing the meta A- because I like it and B- because I know I can help since I have so much experience.
I honestly think the only answer at this point is to offer an alternative path for that mount. I played WoW for over 10 years so I know how people feel about mounts (I was never one for caring about mounts myself to be honest. I would always find the one I liked and just used that one), and locking it behind a type of content that so many people would not want to engage in was a mistake, but the answer can't be to nerf the event. I don't even care about the rewards, I literally just think it's amazing fun.
The people that want the event nerfed have largely also said that once they get the egg they will never come back to the map. I hear your concerns about their current state of their feelings, but it sounds like those players aren't going to be coming back to the map regardless of nerfs, so ultimately what people are saying is to nerf the event till they get what they want then they're out. As someone who not only loves this meta but also sees this as a promising step towards attracting new players who have preconceived notions of gw2 because of how historically easy it's been, all I hear is people want to take this way from people like me who see this as an exciting and rewarding experience.
For a turtle.
The event is way too long to be as challenging and demanding as it is. Aside from that, I completely agree with you. But spending 2-3 hours for an almost certain failure time and time again with virtually no end in sight is absolutely unacceptable.
@@Tracker947
I think what makes people think things are fun or valuable for their time vary from person to person though. For me the event is a lot of fun win or lose (obviously a lot more fun winning, especially since I know it's likely there are a lot of people who just got their eggs), so spending hours there isn't an issue for me especially since the other content in the game aside from the other 3 maps I have been doing for years already at this point.
I've only run with the same commander I randomly met in lfg twice now, otherwise my other clears have just come from doing it with other random groups. Not EVERY clear is a victory, but the wins outweigh the loses at this point because I see people getting better and better at the mechanics. It's only been a week afterall, and I think people are starting to get the hang of certain parts of the encounter.
I'll be surprised if Anet dosen't add an alternate turtle unlock in a month or so.
@@Rincewindl Oh god I don't know if we can survive a month of this energy, regardless of what side of the fence you're on lol Hopefully it gets addressed sooner rather than later
I just want success of the meta to be less RNG dependent and more dependent on player skill. I dont want them to nerf the fight persay, but its dumb when the boss goes from constantly switching sides to getting breakbars only when tail is up. If they tone down RNG a bit, and maybe give us like 22 minutes instead of 20 i think i would be happy.
I have played GW2 since launch. I like dungeons and running around on my own exploring the world. I like jumping in on random spontaneous metas or joining teq or triple trouble if I am on at that time. I still can only do 4-6kdps. Ive gotten better gear, changed rotations `, watched guides, but cant do better and Im fine with that. I dont do fractals pvp wvw or raids, I like to chill. Why after 9 fing years playing how I ENJOY IT that Im no longer allowed by the community to play how I LIKE? Its upsetting.
You can still play how you like. Trick is, now there's content you want behind something that you don't want to do. Something that isn't completely chill. You might have to put in some effort. I guess you have a decision to make.
@@RiylanCorma You contradict yourself . You say I can play it how I want. I want to play Open world content in a non-stressful way. Anet has made open world that way for 9 years. Telling me I have to do something I don't want to do is not letting me play it how I like nor how it has been designed for a decade. I know that Eod is harder openworld, like HoT was, and I adapt by finding people to help me when I need. But forcing me play differently to better statisfy 50 other people to get an advertised piece of content is upsetting that players think that is okay.
You are contribute to the issue muk is mentioning telling me I need to put in effort. I DO put in effort. I recognize my limits and have hit them and so I recognize there is content that needs more and I will miss out on it. That cool, but this is a situation where the content (open world) has been for almost a decade is now merged with a style I recognize I cant do(raid instanced) and they put the mount I was promised from purchase and loved during the beta behind it.
I want people to have their harder content, my husband is a raid leader. But imagine if they went and made ever raiding so basic and simple that people with rare gear can complete them with no coordination or having to learn mechanics? Make raids like the easy3 strikes. That is a change to a decade long design of content and people who love raids would be upset that their content is no longer how they want to play.
@@Agynisus No contradiction on my part. Play the game how you want to. Don't do the content you don't want to.
Here's the thing, though. You're telling me that I can't play the way I want to. I really like that this era-ending meta event is difficult. It should be. This is the culmination of the whole GW2 "story" so far. I want open world to be harder, so it's not just face roll difficulty. I want there to be more hard endgame content. For the first 2-3 days I attempted this event, I didn't even know what the rewards were. I wanted to clear it *because* it was the hardest thing we've seen in open world so far. I like that the DE meta, for once, isn't just "playing alone together." 60 different people have to come together and accomplish a goal, in co-ordination. We finally have the "MM" in our MMORPG. And a large chunk of my fellow players want to take that from me. To make the best meta so far as easy as octovine, or whatever. I don't want that to happen.
ANet never said you'd be handed a turtle for logging into EoD. Sometimes games have neat things locked behind accomplishments. And that's OK. GW2 has neat things locked behind accomplishments already. Weapon/armor skins in raids, everything skins locked behind the gemstore... If not every player wants to do whatever that accomplishment requires for completion, that's OK too.
That said, I think they should go ahead and unlock a version of the siege turtle for everyone. Why not? Make it visually different somehow, so you can tell who did the meta to get it. Maybe quarter size, so it can be tiny and cute. I think that would work for everyone.
@@RiylanCorma it's not just about the turtle, open world zone wide metas have been part of the story. This is part of the main story.. it shouldn't be gated for organized raiders. This large majority that want this nerfed keep this game alive. If this drives away casual players you won't see anymore content much less any hard content.
@@joshb5809 Nope, story is all instanced content limited to a party.
this meta gives me very mixed feelings. before I put my thoughts on the meta and what it could potentially mean for the game, lemme just say I LOVE listening to you talk for long periods of time like this, debating about topics. its a ton of fun to listen to while fishing because fishing is the only thing that is real in this game any more and I do not wish to be convinced otherwise.
Now then, about the meta in question. its very...muk-y. for lack of a better word. the encounter itself, and the mechanics and everything going on with it, IS FUN. it is a very good and well put together experience fighting the dragon and all that. the problem comes with it being an open world meta event, and not an instanced encounter. because as it stands now, Dragons End spits in the face of everything open world has been about and has been teaching people for the past 9 years of the game's life.
Open world historically has been the land of "do whatever the hell you want and as long as you know what it is you're trying to do and can do it well, you will succeed." its a game mode where you can do wacky shit like Power firebrand with hammer and actually make it work really really well, a game mode where trailblazer sword/sword berserker can conquer the world with proper play and an elemental staff tempest can rip through hordes of enemies like they're playing dynasty warriors.
but if you tried to play any of those builds that have been designed and optimized for traditional open world content in dragon's end, you're gonna get clapped and have wasted hours of your time for nothing. that is not good. that is like making a new pvp map and having the neutral objective be Dhuum CM with every single mechanic he has intact. it is disrespectful to players who do open world content to not only shove another game modes rules in their face, but tell them they HAVE to do it in order to get a major selling feature of the expansion they paid good money for. and what's more, it tells open world players and even people like me who loves doing instanced content that "this is the only way to play and engage with our game". which WOULD be ok if the game wasn't so prideful in its "diverse" and "play how you like" style of build craft and gameplay. you cant really compare it to something like WoW or FF14 because those games don't have the same level of diversity as this game does, and if you have diversity you need to actually HAVE diversity and not just the illusion of diversity.
And let me tell you, as someone who does strikes and raids and fractals fairly often, I dont like sitting in the same 2-3 meta builds copy/pasted from a snowcrows website just so i can enjoy the game and experience it. I want to actually make builds and try them out and find ways to make my favorite weapons and abilities actually function well, which I'd like to think is the main appeal of the entire flippin game to begin with, and open world is the only place that Im allowed to do that crap. open world is a game mode where you can just take a breath and relax and not have to worry about doing your exact meta-approved rotation and you dont have to worry about some "higher up" breathing down your neck making sure you fall exactly in line to complete every encounter.
This meta really sets a potentially dangerous precedent for open world content, because if metas continue to be like how DE is, then open world is just raids with extra steps and worse rewards, and that is just depressing and that kind of a future makes me almost not wanna play the game any more.
Also I need to ask, not trying to start a fight or flame or anything like that I genuinely wanna know. has any meta released before DE, where its caused this severe of a divide between players so soon after its launched? cause I've never heard of it happening in the past at all.
Also also side note PS whatever; to the people who say that DE requires only the bare minimum from you in terms of engaging with the games mechanics. what is there to do within the mechanics of the game that are BEYOND what DE currently asks of players? cause I have yet to encounter anything in this game that asks you to do anything more than what DE is asking of you.
EDIT: I see a lot of people in the comments talking about "its the first piece of hard content in years don't take this away from me!" and I get that, I really really do it sucks seeing something you love be absolutely obliterated and crucified by the masses. but it isn't like if DE is made more in line with what's expected/considered reasonable for open world content that's just it there's no new hard content ever again in the game. we know for a fact that CM strikes are coming in the next few weeks, you wont be starved of hard content just because they made the ez mode accessible game mode ez mode accessible like how it should be. let the casuals have their game mode that they enjoy. we can only assume more strikes/CM strikes will be coming in the future with new living world updates. plus if there's enough people saying they like it how it is, Anet may make an instanced version that preserves the encounters current level of difficulty. but there is no way DE can stay how it is and anyone who thinks it can and it'll be good for the game is honestly not thinking clearly.
Hey man, also loving all the debate that's happening, but have the opposite view on this topic :D To be up-front, while I agree on the siege turtle front, I'm definitely on the "dnt nerf it!" camp. Also, I had just posted a comment that contained responses to much of the same topics you talked about, so this message is partly copied over from that.
My main issue with the idea of nerfing this meta (not talking about the siege turtle issue, agree with you on that front), is that there is, and has always been, a serious shortage of high-end hardcore content for the parts of the community that love that sort of play. The only things available for years have been raids and high-end fractals, and those were seldomly updated. Now we get strikes sure, but it's pretty much a continuation of the raid system. Not since before the HoT meta nerfs have we had an open-world meta of this caliber!
An analogy that came to my mind for those that complain about the meta's difficulty is, imagine a restaurant that has a great menu with 50 items. They then decide to add a vegetarian option for those 2% of customers who are vegetarians. Then the rest of the customers go up in a uproar because they dnt want to eat vegeterian food! There are already so many casually-geared open-world metas in the game, what's one more going to change about the daily reality of a casual player? One more meta on the meta train? yay...The closest thing in difficulty is probably Chak Gerent, that fails sometimes, but I can't even remember the last time I failed it. Nothing fills the space this meta does in today's GW2 and people want to take it away? Especially considering that the minority of players that love hardcore content also tend to be those that play the most, advertise it the most, and spend the most money; nerfing the meta seems a terrible idea. You mentionned the diversity of play that the game is so prideful in - well if there's anything that screams the opposite of diversity to me, it's nerfing this encounter into becoming, effectively and mechanically, no different to many of the dozens of other metas already included in the game. One with better visuals and music sure, but just another one to add. By contrast NOTHING exists in the game like it right now. That' something we should cherish.
Open-world is the land of do whatever you want? Well that's fine, enjoy that on the other 64 maps that cater to that exact desire. Leave those that have been yearning for harder content this one map.
Regarding your question about DE's difficulty compared to raids: for most people it's only been 2 days since they arrived in this map, the community will likely learn. Additionally, much of the "prepwork", that makes DE difficult is nearly entirely the responsibility of the commanders, and those are NOT average players. Truth is, the average player just plays a DPS build, and his only responsiblity is making sure he has food/map buffs, and follows the relatively simple mechanics of the meta. And that's the main reason we say this easier than raids. For an average player, one who just needs to have a build, come in and do his job, the only difference is the mechanics, yes. But the actual mechanics of Soo-Won are SUPER simple. The fight isn't "complicated", it's just tight, you have to be on the ball and do damage. By contrast, raid CMs are FAR more demanding for the average participant. The added difficulty here, ie the management and organization of a 50-man squad, lies squarely on the shoulder of the commander/s. That might be unfair for them, but in general they're people that pick up those jobs cuz they're confident, and luckily, only 1 out of 50 people need to do it. It's not representative of the average experience.
Has this ever happened before? Sure, the obvious one that sticks out in my mind is the HoT metas. Upon initial release they were very difficult and were nerfed after outcry, but the community was divided. I can also think of non-meta things that caused similar division like the skyscale.
I think the MAIN POINT of all this that everyone can agree on is that *WE NEED AN ALTERNATIVE ROUTE FOR THE SIEGE TURTLE* . Through another npc, or a lower difficulty bronze tier like Muk suggested, or whatever else. While I don't think the siege turtle is as important as gliding or the original mount system were (because it's not a new system, just an addition to one), I do empathize with, and understand the point that siege turtles are one of the main reasons people bought the game, and its acquisition is currently unnecessarily hard for those people that just want the mount. Additonally, it's creating undue division in the community as a result of it.
That said, I also *DO NOT THINK THE META SHOULD BE NERFED* . I think your point about it being a "slippery slope" for open world content is exceedingly unlikely. I don't see arenanet adding any new meta of this difficulty caliber for a long while. Maybe season 6 finale? Casually-geared open-wrodl content, was, is, and always will be the extreme majority of all content being put into the game. I don't know what will come of the future, maybe the community will learn and this will become a particularly hard meta that people still consistently kill, or maybe Muk was right and once people have the turtle, there wont be enough people to clear it as a pug anymore, which would be a problem and then require fixing. This will probably end up depending on the economy of the rewards we get from the meta, if it doesn't suffice, rewards will need boosting. But we're not there yet, and maybe never will be so, for now, DON'T TOUCH IT.
@@HarJBeRw Definitely think the turtle should have other ways of being acquired without a doubt. and while I do see your point with the restaurant analogy (very clever I do approve :D) I think its not quite like that because as muk states in the video, anet wants you to do this meta BEFORE finishing the final act of the story for everything to make sense. So Anet is trying really hard to make people do this meta with the story and turtle both gated behind its completion, which is fair enough on their part, but I think the issue is that they are putting an arrow down saying "hey go do this!" for everyone doing the story, but the problem comes with that being an encounter that is very VERY difficult and far too much for people just wanting a good story. I think having a difficult meta is ok as long as its done in a way that is open world style difficulty not so much "instanced/raid/hardcore" style difficulty if that makes sense. because there's nuance and strategy in open world if you want to take on some tough challenges such as soloing legendary bounties or high end world bosses a lot like what a whole lot of what lord hizen does (I hope I spelled his name right).
And on the point of diversity, I will admit I wasn't really thinking of it from that kind of a viewpoint, I was really just talking about the diversity and flexibility of the various specs/elite specs so that is an interesting angle to think about.
And as a side note, as I was typing this up a thought came to mind, if the super mega brutal difficult meta event was the echovald event or the new kaineng event, would people care as much or at all? turtle aside cause we all know that gating the turtle is stupid, is it the issue of it being dragon's end specifically that's so tough? cause I thought about that I realized I wouldn't care at all if there was a super challenging meta in echovald or new kaineng really.
Another side note, what do you think Anet could do in regards to the meta that would make it easier for people to get their turtle from it, while still preserving the challenge and fun for people looking for it? would an extension on the timer work? or fixing some of the rng? or maybe make like a dragonstorm style instance of the event that keeps it how it is now maybe?
Hi there, I come from a background of hardcore largescale pve -- and yes, we did have that years ago. I always despised that idea that only 'fractals (later, raids) r true pve high-end content!' coz, well, they are not. There were times when one certain world boss got a big renovation... ofc I'm talking Teq. Compared to those days, DE is a piece of cake, coz it never took even a week of trying to succeed. Whole guilds were founded in order to get those kills, I speak of literal hundreds of ppl (our alliance only had about 1k members, and we were one of many).
Then Triple Trouble came around. And communities like ours had to struggle for a certain while. Not like Muk here or Teapot guiding pugs to victory on like second day.
But problem is then it all went away. We got nothing in years, so that community got disbanded coz ppl lost interest in game.
HoT was _hard_. It still fails from tme to time, and we got extreme powercreep as well as HoT itself got severely nerfed. That was that moment where it all went kinda awright -- as ppl didnt want to learn the basic mechanics, like 'no facetanking dmg' 'never stay in red circle' 'burzurk gear is actually not the only stats in game nor the best one'. Same things that mostly bring today's DE to fail.
As for 'DE asks of player like nothing else does' -- that certainly not exactly true. It just not so obvious in other places.
For example, imo Boneskinner is rather izi strike coz the only thing one have to do there (literally, hug the com and evade in synchro) we practiced for that Teq and Wurm runs for years. I killed Bones on the first try with pugs, never looking it up in advance. Also I saw how ppl fail it (mostly staying the last one alive) after they proudly ping hundreds of kp. So game asks u there -- but u can be carried thru, so its not so obvious.
Now, I've found a new home in a community who's mostly about doing hard things accessible to all players, and we got our kill on second try. And today we tried again and failed only coz discord servers lagged out and we only had less than half squad in voice. But I'm sure jumping in on a next run whenever it happens again, coz it's actually one of a very few places where u can join a real fight, not blocked by community itself.
Latter being, ofc, kp insanity which plagues fractalCMs, raids or even strikes. _That_ is real problem. Not that game never asks u of some skill, but the community don't let u get where it does. Link 250li -- u'r welcome, even if u were carried thru all the way. U r a returning player like me, who's actually okay in skill, but happened to had a life for a couple of years -- no1 cares, 5,10,20k ufe should it be. Counting all runs kinda flawless, 120ufe per 1h, daily -- we r talking of 100-200h gate here. 2h meta 13th try still looks hidious? Not so much for me.
I don't actually like difficulty spike, that's true. Imo Echovald meta is waaaay too forgiving to ignoring mechanics. It shouldn't actually be won with half players laying dead. Kaineng final doesn't also feel even like a town-wide scale event. That sudden difference is making DE feels much worse. It doesn't punish u the way failed Dragon Stand does -- and gotta say I never heard that much bickering there as I hear these days in DE.
I'd say Anet should've made an alternative to getting the turtle -- however, that should be kinda costly and lenghty, like, getting only to that final battle and failing it, but no less than 30 times for example. So that it won't nullify the meaning of efforts for those who r getting it now.
In no way can strikeCMs make it up if meta get nerfed to same boring pew-pew most of others r. 5,10 man group content is not _open world_. They never were. Idea of shoving all the least diffucult content in the boxes called 'instanced' is the very thing which brought this skill rot on us.
@@ZlataChernis You make some good points and Mukluk also complained about the lack of scaling.
It might be best to keep the Open World events for casuals and have an option for organized 50-man groups to do a harder version with better rewards. Also eliminates the trolls who can become a really big problem if you ramp up Open World difficulty.
The requirements some people are asking in LFG are kinda stupid of course but that's unfortunately nothing new. Sure, ask me to have 100 Dhuum KPs for a map meta.
@@kaltaron1284 It could not be best to keep community divided into 'casuals who do pve' and 'hardcores'. There should be events which require efforts but where a well-skilled organised squad can be seen by a bypasser and joined and even by them, so that ppl knew there's a place for skill and effort and joy of accomplishment. Hiding all this behind ugly doors of 'instanced! u r not welcome here if u haven't done it 100 times already' is bad.
So extremely well summed up. I raided until I got my legendary armor and never went back because I figured out after the hours spent in raids that I hate this type of content. I never felt a shred of that missing out feeling when a new raid came out, that's just not for me, plenty of open world content. Now here we are, having essentially an open world raid boss.
At this point, I almost get the feeling that Arenanet changes their staff fully every few years and every time we got a bunch of new developers who have no idea what are they doing, because they have no experience with the game. It would literally explain everything that is wrong with GW2: the inconsistent, schizophrenic storytelling, the same mistakes resurfacing periodically that previously Anet already found a solution, the notion of keep abandoning old system for new ones, not finishing or fully committing them and so on. I wasn't particularly hyped for EoD but this is just depressing beyond anything I would have imagine.
Edit: also, for the people who spread the delusion that "yOu jUsT nEeD tO oRgAnIzE yOuR gRoUp" - I participated in an organized map with a good commander who made the subgroups properly and conntantly shouted what to do and we still lost. All that work and effort for nothing. Congrats for the developers.
It's funny, I've made a conscious decision to savor the new content since it takes so long to get new story contest. I hope they work this out so I have people to play the meta with in a few weeks.
I still need to start Icebrood story lol.
I dunno, I was late to the party, because I enjoyed Elden Ring a ton and now it just feels like they took some good ideas, kept some bad ideas and the meta appears to be an apocalyptic shitfest.
I got through the story, thought that would be the most tedious part and then I found all the small things that annoy me about GW2 occasionally.
Hearts that force a specific playstyle and simply don't work well for all classes or are wonky as shit. "Deliver this steam with your raptor, but the ledges are high up, which would be more suited to the Springer. If you find something to tail-slam along the way, you will lose all steam charges. If you tail-slam something you will encounter enemies, who don't award anything to the heart progress. Any events in the area reward no heart progress."
Jade bot seems like a cool idea, but they just couldn't help themselves and had to include a wonky "but only if you have a charge" mechanic. The whole module system behind it, which is the big part, isn't explained and left to you to read through for 5 minutes.
The Skiff is kinda ok, but once you use your Skimmer you realize just how gimped that boat feels and start to wonder why you can't just fish from your Skimmer, that moves and turns much faster and is easier to get on and off of.
Zip lines are a terrible excuse to introduce more terrible verticality, so you either spend 2 minutes trying to find a way around, a zip line that actually goes up, rather than down (why would anyone need a zip line to go down? Gliders have been in the game forever) or the intended way through a mountainous wall.
Not even the new professions I was so hyped for are really fun, because so many enemies just take forever to kill, evade for 5 seconds straight or just projectile reflect, so you can't experiment much.
I'll probably just get my masteries done (the one good thing, is that they give you lots of mastery points) and then go back to the old GW2 metas, strikes, fractals etc.
Me too! I could play all day long, but my partner can only take so much GW2 in one day and I promised to not race ahead without him. It doesn't help that we're both getting distracted by fishing!
Teapot was in multiple streamers chat the other day saying all the same thing... As far as I've seen on twitch He (and his crew) are the only ones telling everyone it has to stay the same.. This is one of the reasons I choose not to watch him. He thinks everyone should have fun the way he does or not at all... mule-headed.
I'm a casual open worlder, just a little over 1yr new to the game- I doubt I need to ellaborate that my credentials are below average at best...
I just wanted to say that I find comfort that there's someone like you, Mukluk, who at the very least understands boths sides...
I just finished my EoD story run today, and found myself laughing woefully when I saw the achieve telling you to play the meta before the finale. I already knew about this messy debacle from the social media that I didnt have the willpower to even try. The lfg groups I could find all scream for KPs or joining big community vcs (just for one map meta). It's overwhelming, and discouraging.
And as a final note... I just want more people to realize that being an arse, whether intentional or not, does not help whatsoever.
This, all of this 100%. Thank you for saying it and posting it. My wife is one of those open world players who loves the mounts and skins in the game. She would never look outside the game for a group and wouldn't try it more than once or twice if it's this hard.
19:25 Raids and Legendaries were advertised as Difficult to do/acquire. You can't compare that to the turtle.
Also, I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet, but there are some people who play this game who may, for whatever reason, be physically unable to execute higher tier play. It may take them longer to get, but they can still make progress if there were other paths to getting the turtle.
@TheExtremistModerate can I buy legendary armor ?
@TheExtremistModerate I can't play good in WvW with avg 400 ping. I want to buy it T.T
Should it be balanced so blind people can beat it? You can achieve very respectable dps/healing or boon support, or whatever else your build is meant to do with sub 10 keypresses per minute. I know about the whole ableist conversation but the bar is not set higher than what is required for general computer usage
I have now attempted this meta 20 times, Over 40 hours of my time, I have tagged up for 5-6 of them, have all my scripts typed out on my stream deck in a folder, full proper sub groups. Every meta I have tried has failed. I started GW2 18 months ago and have spent over 1800 hours in game, I love it. But this is not fun at all, it is not respecting of my time for the Loot or completion.
If loot was better, I wouldn't mind, but as things are I will complete this once and never return. My guild of 80+ people are all saying the same. Clear it and get back to drizzlewood. I don't know if others have seen the same issue, but on top of it being crazy hard, the loot is terrible!!!!
Personally, I think that the meta did not create the divide, it was always there but never brought to the forefront like it is now. The biggest misstep was not making the meta this difficult, it was never ramping content in the Overworld to reach this level of difficulty in the first place.
The simple fact is that the game never asked its players to do something like this for practically 10 years as we approach that anniversary. And now, Anet has assumed a position where it expects players who are ultimately unfamiliar with having to exert themselves strategically to suddenly perform at the highest level of difficulty?
That is the only real disconnect, imo.
Yep. Wouldn't have been near as much of an issue if they'd taken this expansion to introduce people to the idea of doing more than 3k DPS, and actually moving out of the orange circles.
The truly sad part is this Meta is going to mar what I feel has been an overwhelmingly fun expansion. It's getting a tonne of discussion on GW2-related Twitter feeds, UA-cam channels, and Reddit posts and not in a positive way. EoD was Anet's chance to make GW2 a breakout MMO and I worry the Meta is going to sink that skiff right as it launches from dry dock.
Again, thx for this video!
I wrote it before and I'll write it here: Muk is such a good analyst for what is core and what is gore. Listen to this man, he's neutral and collected and states in a good way what is going on!
I've come just a short way into the story but man I'll wait until I progress further on, after hearing this!
I am the filthy casual type player that has yet to even start the expansion due to lack of time. I don't yet have a Griffon or Skyscape. One day...
I'm still slugging through Return To things from the lead up last year. Have a bunch of story to get through. I don't even listen to the story. All skippable cutscenes get skipped. I don't have time.
I only play open world, with extremely rare ventures into WvW where I never kill anything.
I've been playing two years and only very recently learned what a break bar was and how to fix it, because one of the story bosses required it, and my brother explained it to me in person while I was visiting. I had to bring a stomper turret and then was able to pass the right.
I have no idea what my DPS is, I just press my skills when the cool down is done and shoot stuff at the bad guys.
I appreciate this video, and you looking out for people like me that have never joined a raid, strike, whatever they're called. That type of content isn't for me. I'll have to do some one day because I got almost to the end of Mawdry and now it needs something that's only obtained there...
Anyways. Thanks for the video. Always appreciated. Mmmh.
I enjoyed the Meta until I found out that the turtle is locked behind it, I've tried it three times and failed it three times. Then I found out that not only is the Meta required, so is the Strike mission, and no thank you, I'm not a hardcore player and I don't have the gold to craft new armor for a single thing that I will not do again after getting the Turtle.
I've been trying to pinpoint just what it was that's making me feel anxious about EoD, and this video nailed it. I feel like it's a case of false advertising; yes, there's a crazy new mount available but the likelihood of getting it will be slim to none because it relies on so much that is beyond my personal control. I don't want it to be easy, but the current situation is frankly unfair.
Even though I like the green mechanic on this boss and it would be a shame to lose it, maybe they could change it to be more like raids where you just need a certain amount of players to stand in the greens and then the fight just continues like normal where Soo Won does her tsunami. If not enough people go in the green then its massive squad-wide damage. They would probably need to adjust the timer though, otherwise it might be too easy. Just an idea.
The greens is kind of a new mechanic thrown in, in the middle of an intense DPS fight, that isn't well explained. Having one of the pre-events or something with similar mechanics in another zone would help a lot to get people use to how that phase works instead of needing to learn while being worried about failure. Or stop the timer during this phase is another option.
I see what the problem is here. I'm only on the second map. I'll get there eventually to save the day, but I've only got little legs!
On a more serious note, there are some things that just take time. When the new Tequatl event came in, beating him suddenly became a lot tougher and needed a huge amount of coordination, but nowadays everyone knows what to do and the event is pretty easy. So it may just take a bit of time for everyone to get used to this. If it does continue to be really difficult, then you may end up with a map like Dragons Stand that very few people visit. In the nine years that I've been playing that's one of the only maps I've never finished.
I think that the key thing for me is getting to the end of the game means getting to the end of the story and we all need to be able to do that. For me, this feels like something that needs a middle-ground. Make it a 'little' easier, but also let people have time to figure it out.
Tequatl was my favorite fight in the whole game back then. But the thing is, if you got on a map with a comand, and you got a few (not all just a few) people to listen and organize, you were getting it done. 100% of the time. Here, even if you get A LOT of people to listen, you may fail it. That is bad.
I don't like the idea of the turtle behind it, but I do like the idea of it staying hard. Maybe not this hard, but still, challenging. And they need a diferent carrot in front of the stick. This meta should be the most rewarding thing, and so far, it does not sound like it is.
@@gabriellana4366 I'm still yet to reach it as I deliberately wanted to take my time on each map, but it does sound as if the difficulty is set too high. I think they and the player base just need to remember that we're a varied bunch. I'm not quick, some others might be brand new or very young. The game has always been really great at accepting everyone.
My guess is that Anet are monitoring the feedback and will put out an update or at least a recognition of the frustration players are having soon. They've always been pretty good about that.
My fear has started to come true. Some players who have not gotten turtle have stopped trying. By stopped trying I mean they're now afk by the waypoint.
In every pug run I'm seeing 1 or 2 players afk-ing by the wp on the ship, simply waiting if the map is going to succeed, and if it is, they're ready to griffon launch into the boss to do some 20k damage and get the turtle egg.
They don't care about protocol buffs, they don't care contributor buff, they just want their egg.
This is simply because for years ANet has allowed (read: not taken aggressive/quick actions against) AFK farmers.
It has happened in Dragon's Stand, Drakkar, Dragonstorm, and it's happening in Dragon's End. The rest of the non-afk hard-grinders are the ones being punished for it.
The tiered reward idea sounded good to give gold, silver, bronze depending on time taken with extended leeway
Best comment I've read about this meta is that the "casual" players that are struggling with it right now are players that bought and played through a new expansion in a week. What happens when the "real" casual players get there?
Hey, I came back to this game after few year break (3-5) playing mainly FF14 last year. In FF there is really hard content for 48 players that needs good knowledge of the encounter, pre-prep, 2h at least and is more punishing than any other content in the game as it basically prevents res mechanics, one person not doing their job will wipe the raid and you need to start from beginning (DRS). This content is SIDE content to a story instance that is much easier. It has special rewards, skin unlocks and mount, but mounts in FF have all the same function. It's just basically symbol that you were able to do it. People are running it for the challenge and fun. And it has solid income of newcomers because the unique rewards and bragging rights. Locking any content that is poster child under something like this would kill the game, just because 99% of player base would not do it. It requires whole datacenter to fill the 48 party.
Talking about difficulty. I tried some raid. It was training and I have no idea how it was called because everything is wing in this game. But the bosses have like two mechanics. It's just foam noodle fight with few repeating mechanics. It was maybe bit "harder" than FF story raid? But just because enrage is tighter (I don't thing FF story mode bosses have enrage). From the strikes the hardest one was some Bonesomeone and that incredible foe was fallen by stepping to the left and not moving with chains. That is not difficult. The only problem is, failing the mechanics will one shot you or someone else. Fractals (I did only T2 max because AR) are super easy. The hardest thing is that bosses don't have consistent markers and some attacks are not marked properly. Also "reflects ranged damage", why? My point is, this game is VERY easy. And till you do CMs you probably don't need to think about mechanics that much, I never had to. Any significant jump in difficulty for open world is just... bad design.
Anyway hope this got fixed or will get fixed while I snail my way to EoD. Much love.
P.S.: The thing about bugs. I made new char and went trough story from core to (I just started it today) The Icebrood Saga. The bugs are horrible. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE. I got soft locked 3 times. Multiple times enemy spawned in wall or become unreachable because was pushed beyond my range (thanks Bram). Dialogs don't trigger, NPC gets stuck running on texture... Its insane. And I am not even talking about "balancing" of story missions. They are not hard. Just annoying. Some seem to be balanced for parties? They don't scale with multiple players so two ppl are able to steamroll them like nothing, but if you are alone and get hit you get chain stunned, die, respawn in middle of attack, get hit, get chain stunned, die, respawn spamming dodge roll... Its just annoying. The story is fun, its like silly D&D campaign, but I have really hard time recommending it when I am pissed of in every other story duty.
P.S.S.: Too bad no one will read this, but I needed to pour my heart out. :D
I did DE on my 3rd attempt and I'm also in the camp "never going there again". EoD is great until the very final meta boss. And the strikes are awesome, too.
I have a job and therefore limited time each day. One attempt equals to a whole evening for me. If I failed the 3rd attempt, I would possibly have never tried it again because it doesn't respect my time.
Soo-Won is fun and visually stuning, but also incredibly draining to fail. I've stopped doing it for collections, can't be bothered after I know it will feel more like drudgery than anything rewarding. Sometimes it's RNG, sometimes it's players, sometimes both. First just feels frustrating and like you're not really been in control when the timer runs out, the second is worse when 10-15 people are suddenly dead in the first few minutes and you know immediately that the event will fail and making the remaining time a slog. It sucks having to think 'if only those players weren't here I wouldn't have wasted two hours' when open world should be more relaxing and fun than that.
Returned for EoD after being sick of raiding in WoW and wanting something else and remembering my time with GW2 at its launch. At all other metas, I feel like I've been able to join in and quickly picking up what I needed to do and meaningfully contribute even if it's my first time interacting with stuff like Octovine and using the armors. There's room for me to fail and learn without messing it up for others. Here it felt like me learning and seeing mechanics for the first, second, and third time ruined it for others and held 40-50 people back each time until I got it.
Been less anxious learning raids as a Healer and that's not where I want me or anyone to be.
Something I'd like to see is a Soo-Won fight hard mode as an instanced Guild World Event. Like I said it's fun, but it requires a higher level of coordination to bring out the best the event can offer. And this would be a way for players to organize in a way they can't in open world pugs.
I belive that the first error Arenanet made with this situation was making the event a meta to begin with, like if they knew that players would need a well organized group to get it done why not just make it a raid, that way you indirectly tell everyone "hey you would need a well organized group to get this done"
Watched this again and man. Way to go. You stayed composed, were rational and didn't let people put words in your mouth but STILL took what they said and articulated it better, then gave your thoughts. Very difficult to do.
Forget about Dragon's End for a minute and FIX SEITUNG PROVINCE. I've done that galdarn meta TWENTY-THREE TIMES and it's never let us finish due to one of three showstopper bugs.
Balance/difficulty is one thing. Game-breaking bugs are an entirely different and inexcusable thing.
Grrrr
My experience in seitung:
1st) cannons bugged, meta broke, they later tweeted they knew and were working on this
2nd) final boss reset the fight as soon as we engaged, failing the meta, we found out its cause someone opened a chest in the room before he was defeated
3rd) we failed but no bugs
4th) success! we were already yelling at people dont touch the chests cause they bug the meta, but to our surprise no chests were in the room before the meta began and we did it normally
@@MuklukUA-cam I think if you see chests in the boss room you've already bugged.
Hey Muk, one of the other games I play (Realm of the Mad God) had a similar situation when they reworked an old dungeon and I thought I would share the problems the player base had with it and how the company fixed it. To try to keep things simple, I will explain it in terms of the closest parallel GW2 has rather than explain everything about Realm of the Mad God.
Basically they took the the easiest raid in the game, whose purpose was to introduce players to end game content (similar to what strike missions do in GW2) and reworked it. The rework of this easy raid blew the current hardest CM raid out of the water. It was more difficult, took about 3x as long, it's loot table was not amazing, and it necessitated that players join a dedicated discord server to complete this dungeon as pugging it was effectively impossible as it would always end with you trying and failing to solo it after everyone else died. The main problems outlined by the player base were:
1) an excessively long pre-meta event that required more group organization then every boss fight in the game
2) the boss was invulnerable for 70% of the fight
3) every boss phase could 1 or 2 shot you
4) they added tons of extra mechanics just for the sake of adding more mechanics
5) the loot table was poor
6) WAY too many different boss phases
Strangely enough, the difficulty is of the reworked raid was not what people complained about.
What the company did to fix this: drastically reduced the duration of the pre meta event from an hour-ish to something that could be completed in 15-20 minutes as long as about 4 people in the group knew what they were doing. They reduced the number of unique phases and mechanics the boss had and reduced the frequency with which the boss cycled through different phases and mechanics. They also reduced the boss's invulnerability from 70% of the fight to about 10% They also increased the amount of loot you got from the boss when completed. The biggest change was the reducing the duration and complexity of the pre-meta event. Previously doing this raid was a major time investment to the point that people were not even willing to attempt the raid. Also nobody really cared about the pre-meta event and all anyone cared about was the boss fight, so going through an hour of boring gameplay before you even get to the fun part was what annoyed people the most. This killed the enthusiasm for the raid much more than failing the raid.
Didn't know you felt that way about the expac. I just started the story and am now afraid to get to DE, as one of those casual players who like to sip chocky milk while clicking 1 in AB
I decided I was tired of failing DE with PUGs (even after commandering up myself once, making good subs, calls, etc) and joined a Hs run.
We cleared 1st go, we were well coordinated as you would imagine. Almost failed with 3+ mins in last phase due to bad RNG even though we nailed every mechanic previously.
I agree with Muk 100% in the video.
The saddest thing to me isn't even about the meta, it's the damage that's being done to the community with the 'us vs them' mentality.
As grateful as I am to the Hs community for all the help they are providing to everyone, I'm in the same school of thought. "If I need to join this community to complete the meta and I can't get a single clear with organising the people of an open world map- something needs to change about it.
I'm someone who does raids, fracs, strikes, CMs; I love a good challenge and I love the dynamics/mechanics of the DE boss. It's EPIC! But in it's current state it is unreasonable in line with everything Muk said in the video.
Again like I said, Hs community is really pulling out all the stops for DE which is freaking awesome! However hearing their leaders refusing to acknowledge the objective existing issues surrounding the meta and just telling people "it's very doable" and "a little effort" is very harmful to a mass of very upset people. It's not about lying or sugar-coating. It's about empathy; trying to put yourself in the shoes of those people and understanding. This is extremely important for the long term health of GW2 which I do not want to see die.
Since completing it once, I am not going back until there are some reasonable changes/communication from ANET on the issues. Absolutely no desire of rolling the dice with a map full of people and very likely failing after 2 long hours to numerous things I cannot control.
Thank you for putting together this video. As much as I feel sad for your frustrations, I am really grateful to hear your voice in this conversation!
"Yeah thats still a terrible statement even if you read the whole thing" i love muk
From what I'm seeing, people are pissed about the meta until they clear it.
There will be a wedge between people anyway. Though the turtle should not be gated behind the meta. But the new legendary weapons should. As they're legendary. It's odd that you can just buy some of the unique drops from the TP. Legendary components from the map metas should be account bound.
Easy solution: Increase the reward so that it's worth the effort for tryhards(for a lack of a better term).
Yes this....after getting the turtle egg there is almost no reason to do it again
From what I can tell it's not about it being hard but rather reward, good players only do it once for the turtle leaving no experienced players to lead, if they remove the turtle ontop of that the meta will never be done.
Yeah I can't believe there's no infusions in the drop pool.
@@hanneskarlbom6644 all the insanely good players I know have been playing DE meta constantly. For fun.
That wouldn't help. It'd still be 2 hours for (assuming win rates stay the same) a 50% chance at loot, vs however much you can get in the same amount of time in t4 fractals or drizzkewood or silverwastes or whatever else. So some might keep doing it for a while for fun, because they enjoy the novelty of it being challenging, but eventually thos3 people are going to get tired of it and move on to other things, and after a while, this meta won't be winnable by regular people as muk menrtions.
My idea was to just tie the tail phase to the CC bar. So if you don't CC the boss you have to deal with the tail. Otherwise you never see the tail. Would reward competence and won't screw you over so badly when the boss lunges.
I suggested the same thing! I think that would help a lot and also incentivize dealing with breakbars properly.
"You gotta be troll to do 2k dps." What the frog... really? I have a friend, she loves her core elem and bifrost that she just made (staff). She is playing since 5 years now. Mostly Knight gear. I took her fractals. 2-3k dps. She is not a troll. She enjoys the game, she loves gw2, she is buying items in the store, and.. she is sad that turtle is locked for her. I 100% agree with mukluk. The content should be hard but... not THAT hard.
Having just tried Dragon's End for the first time a few days ago, finding this has been quite a funny watch.
My very brief experience was a map message saying that if you aren't here for meta, leave. If you are here for the meta, squad up with X person or Y person and do what you're told or gtfo.
Was just grabbing HP's and figured 'sure why not, most map metas aren't super demanding' and jumped in tag. I was immediately hit with yelling and complaining from the commander and their friends about herding 55 strangers.
Stuck it out to the end, all the while the commanders constantly complained how we were going to fail at 55%, how no one was listening.
Turns out everyone had blocked the tag holder because he was getting on their nerves, and i ended the meta blocking him too.
Failed at 2%,;Fun meta, tho! ❤
Yeah my first attempt of four with an organized squad was successful. Every other time it has failed at 2%. I actually enjoy the buildup and it feels fun and balanced RIGHT up until that final push where suddenly everything falls apart with bubbles/whirlpools. I blame the design/readability of the event on ANet’s part-not to mention the balance, since literally everything else goes smoothly until that last minute or two. But then in chat, people start blaming each other instead.
11:58 - CGQuorra: "Soo you want anet to constantly pump out easy content because of NEW PLAYERS?" New players who can't do the meta are a tiny part of the issue. It's casual players who have played for YEARS without having to do that level of content.
Drizzlewood was some of the most fun I've had in this game. Dragon's End is STUNNING 0and fun.... but not repeatable like DW, for lack of reward and the fun drains away with Fail after Fail.
The Gating of the Turtle was just a remarkable lack of foresight by the Devs... Shockingly short-sighted. Both you and Wooden Potatoes have the correct read on this. And I hate "Git Gud" too.
And HEY! I race Beetles & lost 7 hours designing the new Guild Hall Sunday (we fought and won it with myself, my wife, and one rando good person) I'm not weird.... well maybe.... a lil 😅
Ok, the Candy Crush comment has me back in cause I'm on Level 7090 right now 🤣
One thing is for sure, they never should've blocked a mount of all things behind that meta-wall. That said, my thoughts on metas r rather different. True, Drizzle was that kind of fun, where u did this once then jump right bk again, and continue staying there for weeks. But then it becomes predictable and boring af, so for example I haven't return to DZ once in last 8+ months, and i don't see me returning there in years to come. DE on the other hand is smth u do and then say 'never again!!' and then in a week or a month u wanna a feel of accomplishment, not just 'i happened to run somewhere around there..', and u jump in some orginized group for thrill of some real struggle. Like ppl still do TT, even tho it was called 'impossible!!!11' far longer than DE.
I was enjoying the expansion, the maps are beautiful, the elite specs were fun, the story was great.
When I reached the final map I knew the turtles were coming up as its the last mastery to complete. When you go to the temple with the siege turtles let's just add a baby turtle that you have to raise that takes several more steps then getting a more grown one if you beat the meta.
I do Fractal CMs, Strikes and raids weekly. Adding a 2 hour meta that people barely can complete isn't worth it for me. I've failed it 3 times, just going to wait till things change.
I still come back to this video from time to time. I find it interesting how divided people were (And possibly still are) about this topic.
The “People are Divided” is so accurate.
It's sad how much you had to defend yourself Muk. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. Kudos!
Man, I really wanted that mount. I've been playing a MMO for the majority of my gaining life where you could carry people and ride together and it's a feature I've been missing so much. And then it happened: the siege turtle!
Seeing this is absolutely sad. I've completed every Raid boss up until Wing 5, Fractal Daily, sPvP Plat 2 - but I don't see myself getting this mount within the next 6 months when everyone fully understood how to do the meta.
I'm completely in for dividing up the rewards so you get something no matter what. Almost no reward could be so high that it makes a 2 Hour run worth it, if failing it grants you nothing. I also don't have the time to play too much due to my current situation and I don't see myself playing 2hrs straight at all! That's why I'm currently wvw'king. Not because I like it, because it's feasible. I can't just alt f4 at any given moment without losing to much progression or reward
Thank you for the video and for remaining calm.
I definitely think the meta needs either an easy mode, ways to extend the timer (like people have been talking about with silver/bronze tiers) or just some frustration fixes. It also needs better rewards, so people are going to repeat it more than they do Triple Trouble.
What I mean by frustration fixes are changes that make an event failure less frustrating. For example, if some players doing greens die, but all the others are back up, just let the phase end. It's super frustrating to wait for a timer intended for someone who cannot make it back up. Also, prevent the boss from switching sides for the last 20 or so seconds of the encounter so groups can have their "close call, but we made it" moments instead of failing because she decides to switch with 2 seconds on the clock.
I hope that ArenaNet can do something about this soon and at the very least, move the siege turtle away from it if they don't intend to make the event easier. The collection for the turtle is harsh enough on casual players with its requirement to do a strike. Honestly, at this point I think a fix like that is the only thing to prevent further community divide, becaus people are pouring more and more oil into that fire every time the meta fails and it's terrible for the otherwise absolutely brilliant community.
I wish the entire set of pre-meta events and boss fight as they are were an instance. Mega Strike or something. GOOD rewards but HARD. That would have been great. Then have a training mode version for the questline and unlocking the turtle.
When the first attack by Soo-Wan is
1) Announced by Aurene before it hits
2) Easily avoidable by a simple dodge
3) Can simply not be near Soo-Wan until after the first attack hence not even needing to dodge
and half the pug squad gets downed
then yes the answer is Git Gud!
What I'd do :
- Balance the Encounter with the assumption that NOBODY has any stacks of the pre-meta buff. These should be Extra, bonus for people wanting to invest more TIME, and thus get the extra chests as reward (if successful). Hell, make those chests lootable even on a failure, so at least you get some loot from the extra time you invested BEFORE the meta
- The Gold/Silver/Bronze Timer idea is Excellent : Reward good gameplay with loot, allow some leeway on the "success" state.
Thank you much for trying to keep this whole discussion civil. it really shows how much you and most of us care for the game and hate how this is making the community split when we shouldn’t be :(
Failed the Meta once and decided to never go back. I have never seen (in over 600 hours) such a toxic map chat and split community.
It is just not healthy to have an angry playerbase. No matter which side you are on.
Excellent video Mukluk. It is great to see you presenting a realistic viewpoint and the most sensible opinions I have seen regarding this whole thing. It's very unfortunate that the reaction to this video is doing exactly what you pointed out was the major problem with the meta - it is pitting communities in the game against each other.
GW2 is famous for its supportive and positive community. ArenaNet has released an expansion that is managing to damage that community. If they have not realized their mistake and are not feverishly making efforts to fix it, then that would be very worrisome.
What annoys me the most about this, is that ANet essentially said "no new raids".
What a bunch of people had asked the last years for, and I found extremely interesting was "what about a really hard, 20 man raid?"
Well, great news.
We now have a 50+ people raid, with abysmal rewards aside from the turtle, that doesn't give you raid rewards so you could work towards some raid exclusive items, that is open for anyone and has utterly bad organization options, that is also largely dependent on RNG.
I mean, my last three tries of my also 7 tries in total, ... we did everything right. We did the pre events to get the 20% dmg buff, we had foods, we had the jade buffs, we did the the wisp phase in record times, we did DPS like there was no tomorrow, there were almost no new players AND STILL we had the boss spam her swiggity swooty around the arena mechanic, where half the people spend their whole time running around in circles, just so you then get a 10 second DPS phase, that is again interrupted by her switching sides.
This is unacceptable.
If you do everything right, then at some point I reject the fact that we weren't good enough. If some people's idea of "get better" is "play so many times that the stars align and you get the boss to just sit there so you can defeat her and have a successful run", then that's a big problem, that a lot of people who beat the meta either don't recognize as a problem, or don't want to because they got very lucky and are now sitting on a high turtle and don't want others to be successful.
Well said. But don't think DE is the end of the turtle frustration. I'm stuck behind Seitung Province meta bugs. I'm 0/23 tries and going INSANE.
@@virus2003 Yeah, did that 3 times already too while I was hanging around there, failed each time, and everytime that one NPC bugged out.
We were able to reset it each time, but there wasn't enough time left to complete the meta.
Which also makes me think that there's something wrong, not necessarily a bug, but something wrong with the Dragon's End meta. Some inner cooldown of Suu-Won's abilities has to be looked at, at least.
I've beat the meta twice now and have my turtle mount and I still think the meta event is terribly designed and far too overtuned. It needs some big nerfs and/or major redesigns. Otherwise this thing will be dead in the water once people finally get their mounts and then never return to it.
I agree, I love the meta, its wonderful. It challenges me in a way that I haven't seen in open world too often. But with how often she changes positions and becomes invuln for almost half the fight, that's not challenging, it's bs. There's no amount of DPS output that will make up for that. I'm going on 11 tries and I'm getting a little tired of completing an hour of shopping lists for the map just to get a crack at fighting su-won again. It's becoming a chore just to even get to the final fight only to lose after you get up there due to the RNG gods. All they would have to do is to tweak her rotations and make it possible for you to even hit her... maybe make damage to her tail count as a slight damage to her overall health. Not anything to make a huge difference, just enough that it doesn't seem like the only outcome is removing her shield buff. I mean the tail is theoretically attached to her isn't it?
Well Spoken. Keep up the Good Work.