Motorcycle's Driving skills: The Energetic Drivability [ENG]
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- Опубліковано 18 бер 2017
- If you guys want to increase your leaning skills, like tight turns, U-turns, brake when the bike is leaned, lean with less chance to slide, etc, don't hesitate to contact us and do a training course with us :
antipilotedelignedroite.fr/fr...
Here is a video to show you a different way of driving a motorcycle :) Far from how you drive, surely. It is not a pedagogical video, but a demonstration video, to show you some differences between classical techniks and this one :) - Авто та транспорт
I am doing this at 11 with my Dandy bikes (only zig zag at that moment) and I am sure this kinda riding practice is very good to improve cornering confidence (improving stability, judgement and cornering decision) although it is not used for daily purposes (considering traffic and road conditions)
now I'm 30 and will try this again with a bigger bikes.
thank you for posting this video!!
Your videos are always a briliant source of inspiration for my own Moto Gymkhana training. Thanks!
You're welcome :)
I would give a pay check to watch him do this on the bike test in 1989. The test guy was so smug it would have been amazing! Cool stuff!
Wonderful video, beautiful skills, I'll see you in May.
Thanks :) Yes, I received your mail, I will answer asap :)
I am going to watch this again and again and ... :D Nice video!
Thank you and good luck lol
I have tried applying both front & rear brakes on my Royal Enfield Classic-350 while cornering with pillion and it responded soo well...
I think it all depends on tyres and how much pressure u r applying on the brakes.
Having knowledge of Engine braking gives you more confidence in the corner...
This technique can only be achieved by practicing and not by watching videos..☺
This seems surreal but extremely practical , salute to you for imparting the training to harness full potential of the machine , I really feel goosebumps when I see you maneuvering any machine with a panache and masculine finesse
Thank you for the message :)
Good techniques for tight radius corners. As speed increases, so does the radius. The bike is dynamic, you will need to use counter-steering and body position for faster, larger radius corners.
This is some advanced stuff man! :-)
thank you :)
Just remember this.... There is never an always! Skilled people can do things that counter what is generally taught. But as a Motorcycle instructor what we teach is the easiest and safest way to ride. Yes you can use front brake while turning, but it is a more advanced skill. Not something that should be taught to a new rider. Too easy to go down.
We do not teach trail braking in the basic class, but i surely has its advantages and is a skill that should be learned!!
I tell my students. First you have to learn to sit up, then crawl, then walk, then run. We do not teach run, ie advanced skills, in the basic class. This man's skills are way beyond basic.
I am an instructor, and I agree with the fact that first, we have to teach basics. But after that, we have to teach thingd that can help people to ride safer, not only about skills, but aabout what they "search" when they want to ride a bike: they want sensations, and this is why most of riders ride fast. Then, even if you have skills, your chance to die are vey high. So if we can teach a way of riding that give people lust to not need to have speed to have sensations, then I will teach them this, even if it takes more time to learn it.
Hi. Thanks for the video.
The fact that you say that you don't "use" counter-steering doesn't mean that you don't "use" it, it just means that you don't do it consciously. Single-trail (single-trace) vehicles that have fixed back wheel and movable front wheel (like motorcycles) **only** turn by counter-steering, regardless of whether you understand what you are actually doing at that time or not.
More specifically, and you grasp that point by feeling it, such vehicles don't actually turn, they actually "fall" to one side or the other. Counter-steering is used unconsciously to make it "fall" to the desired way. I didn't read all the comments, but it's surprising to see that very few have grasped what counter-steering is in practice and in theory. Mike Bennett only did in theory.
You can even see counter-steering in your video, at point 2:35 to 2:37: While exiting the turn, the bike is leaning to its right side, your handle-bar is also turned to the right-side, making the bike to stop leaning to its right side (i.e. counter-steering). This is the exact reason we see the bike to stop leaning to its right-side and start to balance itself and then starts lean to its left side (counter-steering ended right there, at around 2:36-2:37).
Although you are wrong, you are wrong in the exact right way, helping everyone understand what counter-steering is.
You are counter-steering all the time, it's just it's more visible for everyone to see at these points i mentioned, since the video slows down as well. Also, forget "pushing" the handlebar since it confuses you, you might pull the one opposite to it, it makes no difference, and you do it all the time.
Thanks for your comment, but no, I really don't. I don't pull or push. What you are seeing, is only the fact that the handlebar wants to go strait thanks to the acceleration.
Yesterday, I tried to lean without my hand on the handlebar, at 50km/h (thanks to a high idle and with the 3rd gear), and it works easy.
What is possible, is that the bike is self counter steers. You can see that when you are on the stand. If you lean without your hand on the handlebar, it will turn on its own to the opposite side of the turn first, even at 0 speed.
It doesn't make any difference at all. The bike is leaning on one side and the handlebar is turned on this same side and this is the definition of countersteering, the bike starts to change the lean angle to the opposite side and balances itself. The fact that the "handlebar wants to go straight thanks to the acceleration" is another effect, called the gyroscopic effect. You and many others tend to mix counter-steering with the gyroscopic effect. They relate and complement each other when you ride a bike, but they are not the same.
"The bike is leaning on one side and the handlebar is turned on this same side and this is the definition of countersteering" what I understand from this sentence is wrong, but maybe I don't understand it good (I am not ironic).
About the self balancing, I totally agree, this is the heart of most video I made. And even without Gyroscopic effect, as Professeur Papadoulous demonstrated it in 2011.
The Gyroscopic effect is not the only one effect who made the handlebar to go straight, the caster effect helps too.
"The bike is leaning on one side and the handlebar is turned on this same side and this is the definition of countersteering": 2:35 at the video. The bike is leaning on the right side and the handlebar is also turned on the right (same as the bike) side. This position makes the bike start to lean to the left side and it does. As you can see on 2:37 the bike is already leaning to the left side. This is the definition of countersteering because the bike's handlebar was turned right and 1.5 seconds later the bike was leaning to the left (this is the "counter" or opposite direction, hence the "counter"steering term).
All that happened that made the bike "turn" in these 2 seconds from right to left was the steering wheel pointing to the right direction, making the bike lean to the left.
It's pretty obvious, can't comment on this any further than that :p
Thanks for sharing i like to watch competition riding
You're welcome :)
To throw a bike around like that is due to a highly developed skill set. The bike is a gyro and this style of riding displays how well a bike can be mastered. In the video, the rider and bike are one. Very aggressive use of the gyro effect. Really enjoy watching it over and oner!!!
Thank you :) but the gyro effect is not the only effect I am using...
AntiPiloteDeLigneDroite Very true. On the level you handle the bike the way you control the bike is another aspect that is very well done. Gyro is only one.
Do you have any instructional videos? or books available in the US? I see in your point, and I know what you show works well in slow maneuvers. Most principles of looking through the turn, counter weighing, counter steering, not using the front brakes in slow maneuvers are for educational purpose which leans towards extreme safety. I have used the front braking on turns ( I think we call it Trail braking) but it requires practice and lots of riding experience, a new rider who touches the front brakes on turns may have a catastrophic experience, but yes anyone can feather the front brakes as long as they are respective of their bike's capability and the speed.
I have some "intructionnal" video, but not really "how to". I mean, I can show the effect we'll use in this way of driving, but I can' do a video to say: first do that, then... Because a video can't show sensations. In a training course, I can take people with me on the bike, then, I can make them feel the sensations they'll need to accept.
About the front brake during the turn, when you have the correct skills, like let the handlebar turn itself, brake less and less during the turn, don't have your weight on your arm, you will not fall :)
Very interesting technique, and very well executed i might add, nice skills!
Allthough i disagree a tiny bit about the not countersteering in the figure-8 riding. I think you are countersteering from the moment you start accelerating at the end of the tight turn, to get the bike upright and the to get the initial lean for the next corner (you have to really, because of physics). But then you start braking, which of course dramatically decreases the turning radius, allowing you to turn in further and further without countersteering. Like I said, very interesting technique.
Thank you, but I really not have forces on the handlebar... I am using the front brake and my weight to lean, to explain it in a simply way (but it is a little bit more complicated than that).
So if the bike countersteers, it is not because of me pushing on the handlebar (I don't do it anymore).
:)
Dead right but he's quite unable to understand what he's doing I'm afraid.
Accelerating acts itself acts a "counter steering" force that straightens up the bike.
@@Elscroftz Agreed actually on the uprighting/straightening force accelerating creates, however that force alone cannot get you from a lefthanded turn into a righthanded turn or vice versa. As the rider from the video allready explaned, he is using his weight to lean in and brake and accelerating to increase and decrease turn radius, therefore not needing countersteering. As said in my initial comment, a very interesting technique; idd love to know whether motogymkhana riders use it often.
Is it posible to do this with clipon handlebars?? I saw in your videos a cbr600f that seems to have raised handlebars instead of original factory clip-on handlebars...
Yes, it is. My handlebar is raised, yes, but it is still clip on, not straight. It is from ABM.
It was for my back, the body position with real clip on hurts my back a lot :(
Hey, I would like to ask you for a bit of help. I crashed some time ago and got a bit of fear of leaning the motorcycle. I did a safety course and it helped a bit, but I would like to practice a bit on my own. So the question is: how far can you really lean a machine? How do you know, that the tires are starting to loose traction? Is a big parking spot a good place to train (when it comes to the grip of the asphalt)? Thank you in advance and ride safe!
For now, I can't answer this with lot of accuraty. But you can be sure of one thing: your tires have more chance to loose their traction if they have to much pressure on them. So, when you lean, as long as you push the handlebar, you stop the normal movment of the front wheel who wants to turn in the direction of the leaning, so you have more chance to fall. This is why, you shouldn't counter steer during a time too long. This is why I reduce the speed in my turn, then, when the bike is leaned, I don't need to lean it more by myself. But if you reduce the speed too fast (with a bad braking, it is the same problem). Same with throttle.
This needs to change your speed at the beginning of the turn, because this way of riding will change the trajectory you are used to see. Not easy to resum it here, sorry.
How do you turn at high speeds? (100km/h +?)
It seems I have to do tones of effort if I want to steer with my legs and feet inputs. However, with counter-steer the bike just goes with just a push forward on the handlebars.
I would love to know which technique do you use when you ride on the road.
Thank you much, I love your style.
At this speed, there are no tight turns, so it should not be hard lol
But for sure, counter steer is easy.
For my part, I don't use feet inputs, but butt and hips. But the movment is always hard to understand, during the course, it is something that takes a lot of time for the trainees to master
Interesting video, great to have discussions, too bad all the comments can't be civil. My personal belief is that, under most conditions, counter steering occurs when physics makes occur - like gravity, it has physical laws. On becoming aware of the phenomenon, you can play with it and use it to advantage . . . or not, but deny it exists at your peril. This video doesn't deny the existence of counter steering, it offers up a way to play with it . . . no bad thing. As for head placement, isn't it eye fixation (or point fixation) the more relevant concern? Clearly, playing with head placement addresses eye fixation, so the more we chat about that, the better. My only beef with the video is that in my world we don't "drive" bikes, we ride them . . . hey, ya can't please everyone eh?
Nice resum :) Thank you :)
That is so bad that I can't speak english very well to talk more and better with people like you :(
I know its an old video but I see you are still active. I am struggling locking the handle bars and keeping balance on a sportbike, do you have any tips?
Hey, no, I don't have any tips, as from my point of view, to have a better control of the bike, it needs a lot of work, changing your body position, the sensations you'll need to accept, like the free fall, and the free rotation of the handlebar.
This is why we are organising training course of 2 days or 3 days. It is long to change :)
I had a guy who I paid for some extra lessons get me to practice this because of a few reasons.
1. you are more intuned with everything around you can see the car pulling out and get out of his way easier while scanning traffic around you.
2. you can enjoy the sights while riding. you're not just riding to get from A to B but to enjoy going from A to B.
3. when you do this kind of practice you build a reflex into your system on how to use your motorcycle. A more advanced reflex. so if the time ever come and ninja space zombies ever come to earth you can ride on out without forgetting how to ride.
Personally, I sometimes get on and my mind draws a blank but my body knows how to ride because I've pratice skills like whats on this video.
I do some course like this :)
yeah I practice this and I found a few time that I would have crashed my instincts took over and by the time it over my brain kicks in and says honk the horn.
Great video. One question -- what is the advantage of initially looking away in a turn?
Thanks :) the advantage is to have better sensation of leaning, and more over, as this bike can't turn to much, if I don't look at where I want to go, I remove the will to turn. Then, I can accept to lean more to turn, and my brain will not want to turn the handlebar :)
Hey! God skills man! . Where are you from? I am from Argentina (Southamerica) , when you enter the turn, do you use the front brake while you turn the bike down ?
Thank you, I am from France (Europe), far away from you lol Yes, I am using it before and in the turn ;)
Only front brake or rear only?
You should disable comments. Some are notoriously uninformed and partial opinions, stemming from the ignorance of basic physics laws, and, even worse, some are purpusfully been negative and harmful. It’s a pain even to read that authoritative tone coming from the ignorance bliss. I bet my shirt they can not explain precession in plain english. You are too kind with them. By the way the video(s) are absolutelly briliant!
Thank you :)
I can't disable them, because some of them are interesting too. We don't have to "hide" because of bad people. We have to live with them. And thanks to them, we can feel ourself more intelligent ;)
Posting a vid is an invitation to be viewed and admired. If the viewer recognises
the vid as utter rubbish then they're going to say so. The wisdom of crowds says
the majority is right most of the time. The theories in this vid are nonsense
and he's being called out by the majority, that's all. That's how it works.
correct me if I wrong, but formulas shown at 3:12 work at 45degrees of lean. As a result at 45degrees you have (V2)/g = R . Basically at 7m/s (25km/h) you'll be able to turn with R~5m at 45g=degrees
Yes, your calcul is right :)
Can this technique be done on any bike or scooter? Or is it just sport bikes? I ride a Piaggio BV 350.
you can do it with every bike, asd long as there is two wheels and an engine :)
Just out of interest, when you're using your front brake (obviously very gently) in tight turns, are you also using your rear brake? I use both.
Yes, I do, because, first I used only rear brake, and I am still using it, but less than before :)
Thanks :-)
Thanks, good to know :-)
what's the CC on that bike?... very nice execution on every turn... and Guys, for more info on this kind of driving, I suggest googling "Moto Gymkhana". Hey bro, and what's your time on the GP8 you did on this video, looks really fast. :)
it is a 650cc :)
The latest chrono I did (last year) was 29,2s. I think I am faster now :) And this week end, I changed something on the bike : I increased the caster angle, and the bike is better now ;)
Look at the video again. He uses THOSE BASIC principles, despite the clames he did not. His style is like ride a ByCicle at slow speed !
1. He moves his uperbody, it canges the center of mass and producung counterstearing effect and the bike leans by Itself !
2. Look when you want to go, this make you relaxed on the bars and you will turn. When you from experience become relaxed and know well your metric, you can turn your head where ever you want - but only when you gain enough experience you can perform that STUNT!
3. Front brake while leaned. If smooth to the point of lock T(0-) your are going to be ok. At the lock Time(0+) YOU WILL FALL faster that you could blink. Summary: Front brake during turn is Very Bad Habit.
Niki Chepel front brake while turning is fine...if you have mastered that skill.
100% on point Wayne! Because it's called trail braking.
Front brake while lean...........did you hear the revs while he used his front brake?Ever ride a clutch much?
Yup, trail braking is always ok, no stopping while turned is not ok. Not really sure why he advise people with such bad habits, I think he does not know or understand the concepts.
how do you not use the clutch while turning at such low speed, wouldn't the bike jerk with the slightest touch of throttle at such slow speed? still on carburettor
You can use your throttle and your rear brake: keep a very small acceleration with the throttle, and use the rear brake to slow down, but keep the small acceleration to not stall.
thanks!!
Hey AntiPiloteDeLigneDroite, on what bike are you riding in this video ?
It is a Honda CBR650F, bt I changed some things on it: I added some stop steer, to make it turn less, and I increase the caster angle to increase the size (to be able to lean more before touching the foot peg) and to make the handlebar to turn slower :)
its a beautiful bike and thank you for your quick response
its there some process we can use to practice this safely without dropping/falling? any site ?
No, sorry. There are other video with some tips, like this one:
ua-cam.com/video/ZMl3Y-4Tcrc/v-deo.html
But the best is to do a course with us :)
Put bars on your bike or go for proper training. And ignore his theories.
He's wrong.
👍 Superb skills
double thanks :)
so on higher speeeds you also do not counter steer lol? I'd like to see you turn in the wheel entering curve at 80-90 km/h
At this speed, turns are very wide, so there is no need to lean the bike quickly, then you can lean without counter steer... I am teaching to my student this kind of riding, and we are using theses skills on traffic lanes, so at higher speed, and they are able to follow any trajectory, so...
Honest question here. How and why do you not look into the turn earlier? what are the benefits of your preferred method?
I will try to explain it in English, but it is hard for me, sorry :(
I don't look at where I go, to let the bike turns itself. If I look at where I want to go, my will want to control teh trajectory, and then, I will stop or move the handlebar myself, which will make me fall. Here, I just lean, and brake, and wait until it is full lock on its own. Then, I can concentrate my will to keep my head straight compared to the horizon, to have less fear to lean more :)
I understand what you are aaying. Thanks for the reply.
you're welcome :)
Everything has to do with physics . How are you going to do body counterweight at that speed considering centrifugal force ? Unless you want to be expeled from the bike you have to kind of practice circle 8’s with knee dragging at certain speeds . There are two different concepts here . One is a “U turn technique” at low speed with body counterbalance, And the other one is “figure eights” with knee dragging technique at higher speed which involves moving your body in the direction of the turn so you don’t end up flying away out of the bike
Counter steering is only appropriate at a sufficiently high speed, when gyroscopic properties of the front wheel become too strong to ignore and have to be utilised instead.
"Look where you want to go" principle depends a lot on how much your sense of balance and body position is tied to your visual perception. For absolute majority of people this link is very strong. To test it, try standing on one leg with your eyes open and then with your eyes closed.
In my latest video, I showed that counter steering could be used even at low speed ;)
About the look, you're right, and this is why I teach to people to be able to not look where they want to go. Then, on traffic lanes, they will be able to go in a direction, and to watch around them in the same time, to see if something is coming from one side or another to cut their trajectory, and then, to be able to avoid it :)
I've done this before. You are doing true steering.
You're going just fast enough to gather some momentum, the inertia of this momentum acts as a counter-weight.
The head postition doesn't really matter, but does make it much easier.
You're not going fast enough to counter-steer.
What do you mean by "true steering" ?
So, if you've done this before, this means that you were front braking while leaned, letting the handlebar to turn itself until full lock, leaning until you have the sensation of falling, without counter steering. Is it what you've done ?
Last thing, if counter-steering works thanks to the speed, how am I counter steering here : ua-cam.com/video/-jyltAAFS4E/v-deo.html
For people who are unfamiliar with countersteering and may be having difficulty following the comments, here's a safe experiment that anyone can do, who can ride a bicycle with no hands:
reach out and touch one of the handgrips with one finger, and very gently push forward. I dunno what might happen at super-slow speeds, but at normal biking speeds, you'll turn... well, try it for yourself, you might be surprised
so you only use the front brake to make the bike "stand up" and that's why you're not falling down even though you don't put yourself to the outside as a counterweight? (does the "looking straight" also help you not fall down without counterweight?)
No, the front brake helps me to lean more... it doesn't straight me up :) About the look, yes, it helps me to no fear about falling, but, it helps me to avoid the will to turn the handlebar (If I don't look, I have to wait until it is full lock)
but if you are saying that the front brake helps you lean more, then what's keeping you from falling? only a slight throttle twist? because there's no counterweight as i see. or the bike just "rolls" toward where the front wheel points to instead of "falling in"?
(just trying to find out which "force" is keeping you away from the tarmac :) because there has to be something to balance your weight with the bike leaning in with the front wheel braking)
It is only centrifugal force. Please watch the video I amde about it. This is why I putted the link during the video :)
annotations don't appear when i'm watching youtube on my phone. gonna check out that video now, but just fyi: might worth to add the same to the descriptions, so people watching the video on mobile would also see it ;)
Thanks for posting. Slow speeds allow lots of different approaches to bike control. Ask a stunt rider... I guarantee half of what he/she tell's you isn't in the book.To all the "experts" below. You'll understand more when you open your senses to learning and experimentation. But of course, you know that already.
You do use contersteering even in the last scene where you stated you did not. You used it while still turning Right, to straighten up the bike. At that moment(when already vertical), yes, you didn't have to countersteer to turn left, because you gained an angular momentum before. In order not to slam on the ground, you had to turn left as the bike leaned over. Very good skill indeed.
Thank you :) But... you are wrong, I am not counter steering (it is doing itself). And to show it to you (because you're not the only one who said that to me), please look at this:
ua-cam.com/video/cgtmuS8WFLU/v-deo.html
Sadly he doesn't understand what is going on.
@@dny9394 who?
AntiPiloteDeLigneDroite you are playing with a different phenomenon at low speed: the gyroscopic reaction of the front wheel is neglegible compared to the moment you apply to the system by leaning over With your body. But still it doesn't prove that countersteering is not what you have to do in order to turn a motorcycle at normal speed.
Also the part in which you state that the forces that you apply to the handlebar go to the ground and reduced the grip of the Tyre, is wrong. I don't understand how can someone without a good understanding of phisics (as far as it seems!) Wants to teach to other people.
Also: you have a steering dampener: the rotational speed of the handlebar is limiter by this device. Try to do the same without it, and you most likely see that you'll get very different reactions by the motorcycle depending on radius, speed, moment you apply and more. So you won't get the consistency in turning that you have now with that thing, and I would be more difficult to do that excercise.
Also: the scene the handlebar turning towards the turn, are shot by a camera on the driver. The point of view is changing, (left-right) and the reference with the speedo is pointless. Fix the camera on the tank.
I'm learning to drive motorbike and find the technique that one learns in a driving school kind of unnatural dogmas. Yes, it works. But I find it quite limited and it makes not much sense to me either. They tell me don't try to understand it and just do it.
What you're showing here and in your other videos makes much more sense to me. And it uses really the physics behind in a clever way. And seems to be much more powerful too. How can I learn these techniques?
For now, I have no other ideas that to tell you to do a training course with me...
Amazing! :-)
Thanks, man :)
2:35-2:38 he start turn by counter steering, 2:39 he turn wheele to direction of turn, and start brakeing. Braking in this position increase "falling" into turn and that makes the turn tighter. Because low speed cause low centrifugal force he has to move his body to outside of a turn to keep balance. 2:47 he start adding speed that cause increase of centrifugal force and that cause bike to stand up.
Thank you to explain me how I am riding... but everything is wrong.
I am not countersteering, as you will see it in the next video I am doing (in which you will see me doing turns at several speed without my hand on the handlebar). I am not turning the handlebar, as you will see it to in the next video, and I am not doing counterweight. My position is like this only because my external legs is pushing on the tank to lean the bike.
Last thing, centrifugal force decreases with the speed, but it increases with the reduction of the radius... so as my radius becomes tighter when I am slowing down, the force doesn't really change at the end. When I am using the throttle, it is not to stand up the bike, but to have the front wheel going straight.
No handlebar driving does not prove you do not use counter steering, this video show it ua-cam.com/video/Ki_nJsuXIIA/v-deo.htmlm57s You should record something like this in video to prove you do not counter ster
And this part show indirect counter steering by braking ua-cam.com/video/Ki_nJsuXIIA/v-deo.htmlm38s
What I want to say, when I say I don't counter steer, is that I don't push myself the handlebar, taht's all.
If the bike is self countersteering, it doesn't matter.
On the video I am doing (with no hand on the handlebar), we can't see it, even at more speed, and with an on board camera...
The video you linked seems good to see, but I can't understand the language :(
Yep. Absolutely correct.
Nice to see this many views on your gymkhana video's. I think "experienced" should maybe be swapped for "beginner". It is nice to see you make progress on your style. Counter steering always works no mater the speed or the technique used (as it is a balancing act).
Hi Bob, thank you for your message :) I use the term ''experimented'', because, most of the time, I have comments from experimented riders, and they are few to agree with what I show...
I do agree with what you say with counter steering (and I show in the latest video I made, that it works even at slow speed). But I don't use it.
But since this video, I think I made other progress. We will see each other in June :)
Gymkhana riding style, it's not wrong at all it is the way all the professionals ride. what is normally taught about riding particularly parking lot slow stuff is very contradictory to when you watch the experts! Good job.
Thank you. As you say, it is different. And on this other video, you can seehow it goes on a big bike like BMW 1200RT:
ua-cam.com/video/ZMl3Y-4Tcrc/v-deo.html
I would be very happy with myself if I could turn that tight with such control. Like it.
Thank you, it seems this movie shokes a ot of people lol and not it the good way, some times ;)
+AntiPiloteDeLigneDroite it's not the movie that shocks people, it's the bullshit and wrong explanation captions that are associated with it that shocks people. Your skills are excellent!
Mee too!
@@Peter-976 Exactly....
excuse me，Does your CBR650F have a replacement handlebar?
Yes, I "raised" it up
This guy do actually the counter-steering just after passing the stake by delaying straightening the steering bar. Without counter-steering you will never do any turn or even change direction. What we call counter-steering is actually so natural reflex that we don't think about it. Every child do it on bicycle! Any change of riding direction begins with moving the contact point of tires outside the the center of mass. i.e. befor turn left your tires must be on the right side of CG. So you put some press on steering bar oposite to planned turn and guide the wheels outside (motorcycle leans). Then by continuing ride straight you will fall on left, that's why you have to in the next step turn your steering bar left. The centrifugal force starts to act avoiding your fall.
This guy thanks you for this explication of what he is doing, and says that you are very good to analyse something, just by watching...
But...
Look at this video, and explain me how I am doing to lean, and to go in full lock (or not) without my hand on the handlebar? How can I counter steer, if I don't have my hand on the handlebar,?
@@AntiPiloteDeLigneDroite in full-lock you are actually long long after the input of counter-steering. In full lock you only stabilize the lean by operating throttle or front brake gently (rear brake is better in this case by the way :) ). Generally in full lock the radius of turn depend only on your lean angle. The more you lean the smaller the radius (because of front suspension geometry). And why can you do it without hand on handle bar? (when in the film? I didn't notice ) I guess it is apparently temporary stable turning after lots of your practice. You know exactly how to initialize the next turn leaving the previous one. Make more 360s without any brakes input and you will fall outside, or without throttle input you will fall inside. Thats why Gymkhana riders use higher idle RPMs and greater gears ratio.
Oki, so I miss two things lol : my ironic effect (I don't need you to explain what I am doing, as I don't do what you say), and second, the link of the video I mentionned in the previous comment (this is why you didn't see the without hand moment lol)
So here is the link:
ua-cam.com/video/uNKiJRRbTpI/v-deo.html
The Japanese's Moto Gymkhana's riders are changing the rpm and the idle only to have more torque to accelerate. At its normal minimum, the idle is too low (it is made for shiffiting gear) to have enough torque. So they increase the idle to avoid the gap of torque the engine has at his minimum idle speed. They don't change the idle as Europeans peoples do. Same reason for the gear ratio. This allows the riders to not use the clutch, to prevent it from being too much used.
And at this moment, I had the normal gear ratio, in the video, idle was at 2500rpm.
Well said, but he won't understand...
damn it! I took pictures from this video to show you when and where you are countersteering and I can't post the pictures to comments!
Just name the time. 2:35.
Counter steering take effect after a certain speed. If that speed is not achieved, you cannot counter steer. Below that counter steer threshold speed, you go in the direction of the steer, not opposite.
So, in this case, could you explain me how am I able to use it here, at very low speed:
ua-cam.com/video/-jyltAAFS4E/v-deo.html
And how I am able to not use it, even at a speed faster than 50km/h ?
ua-cam.com/video/uNKiJRRbTpI/v-deo.html
It seems that lot of things are unknowned about counter steering. The fact that people can't do it at low speed doesn't mean that you can't do it, and the fact that people can't lean at higher speed without pushing the handlebar doesn't mean that you can't do it too.
Counter steering (in term of pushing the handlebar) is working for sure, but it is not the only way to lean, no matter the speed...
I can't believe people are saying this fella's a bad rider. Incredible skill.
Thank you :)
It seems that sometimes, when people is not able to do something, he becames angry...
correct me if I'm wrong.. mastering the throttle control is the key?
it is ONE of the key, but not the only one :)
Warm slicks is the other
Mastering the trifecta is important clutch throttle and rear brake all used together as a team
Man you are so smooth with your bike...you're the french keith code :D
❤️ love your shit!
#HatersGonnaHate! 😎💁
Thank you lol
Did you have rear brake applied?
Yes, but not only :)
what is the tire model on motorcycle ?
It was Michelin Pilot power 2ct on the rear, and pilot power cup evo on front, if I can remember :)
speed is the key, depends on speed, if you are riding low speed range (6/10 km/h) you should use counter steering, mid/high speed, (like moto gymkana) you do not need to, because speed let you stay up. there is no wrong or correct technique, it is just depending on your speed ;-)
Counter leaning doesn't work, it is a myth. You can't fight the weight of the bike, unless your are tall or heavy. What is working, is only the fact that the handlebar is rotating, as you can see it in this video :
ua-cam.com/video/ua_qU5gSiqs/v-deo.html
More over, there are no Gymkhana technique. Moto Gymkhana is only about color of cones, and technik is free.
On real life, you can do your u-turn at the speed you want, and it all depends on your skills, ad on the bike. A bike which is not turning that much, like a super sport, you can u-turn with counter leaning, or you turn wide :)
OH OH .... You don't drive a Motorcycle , You RIDE it. You drive a car all right. Good video. Similar to Japanese Police riders video. Anyway well done for putting up the video which is well made with good riding skills.
Tommy Raleigh from Ireland.
Thank you :) about the translation, I was used to say "ride a motorcycle", but online translators and Humain translators here in France, said me that I have to put "drive"... So maybe you are right, but it seems that It does not prevent the understanding. Maybe my own translation does, yes :)
THANK YOU SIR...
you're welcome
I follow You a long time, l would like to ride just half like this Guy!!! He plays with Bike like a Toy 👏🏻👍🏻🍀
Thank you :) And, if you want to learn, please come, I teach this way of riding during training course (we can provide a bike with crash cage).
Your toys are different, if I trust your name ;)
Do you need a high cc bike above 300 to accomplish this?
No, any bike can do it, even scooters. But lighter bikes are too easy, as they can turn a lot without too much efforts.
Sportbikes are the hardest, as they can't turn so much. For example, here is a video with the GSXR1000, which can turn in theory no less than 6m80...
ua-cam.com/video/snKjUQ8Cw6k/v-deo.html
@@AntiPiloteDeLigneDroite I showed your video to someone and he was convinced you needed a power bike to make those tight turns leaning without falling especially without counterweight. Thanks for replying!
This man knows his bike abilities , What we don't see all the drops learning this, Don't we all wish our roads looked this good
You don't see it, because it doesn't happen so much time ;) It is not a question of "talent", but only about how I am riding. And then, you can have a look when I ride on a wet ground...
ua-cam.com/video/L8Mug5VzFpA/v-deo.html
yeah ! I want to ride like this !!!
So you can train by yourself, and I hope my videos here can help you:
ua-cam.com/play/PLCelmYncuuHi_clJ15PdV6twI2mSg8s28.html
Or you can do a course here with us :)
heh - this exactly destroys the most of instructors basic rule "You go where you looking to.. if you don't turn your head you will not turn. It's same as on the skis." ..Although I know I can look left but go right on skis ;)
lol yop :) but it seems that it is "magic", and I am as heretic to say that lol
Skis don't have wheels. Skis are not gyroscopes either. Come to think about it,
skis don't have anything in common with a bike do they?
wow.. Awesome :3 I want to handle a bike this gr8 :3 i'd practice a whole summer with my Varadero 125. I did some no hands circles and stuff yes i fell one time heh... :3
:)
What gear did you used?
It is first gear :)
is there a kind of micro counter steer happening. what causes the bike to learn. to turn at am particular radius, you have to have the right lean angle. turning the bars in the direction of the lean at anything above walking pace will counter steer. perhaps these turns are just slow enough that counter steering does happen. would be really cool to see Super slow motion of the right to left turn transition. much slower than the slow motion here.
Nice work btw. gets everyone thinking
Thank you, but there are two effects with the couple "leaning/hnadlebar". If you turn it with your arm, it will lean the bike to the other sides, but if the bike leans, it will turn back the handlebar in the direction of leaning.
I did a video about that, but it is in French, and we saw the handlebar going first in one direction (the one where I tryed to turn the handlebar), then the bike lean to the opposite side, and then, the handlebar turns in the direction of the leaning.
I am sorry, but it is to hard for me to explain it more in english :(
ah, ok. so you make the bike lean by force, and the bars follow into the natural trailing position for the ok lean an speed.
No Problems - it's all good learning.
I think it's a terminology thing. My definition of countersteering, which is also described well in the book "Twist of the Wrist" is the initial "counter" input to the steering, which is against the final direction of the turn. It is what causes the bike to lean over. Once leaned (correctly for the speed and radius with right throttle), the bike will maintain a particular turn with the wheel facing the direction of the turn (without rider input). This is a function of steering geometry, speed and radius. If you get the tip over and throttle right, it's all self balancing. not enough tip, and you need to keep the counter force to overcome the bikes desire to stand up. It works at gymkahana speeds, or at circuit speeds. The radius and speed are just different. The book also describes travelling through corners, deliberately not putting any load on the steering bars, and allowing the geometry and physics to take care of the turn
Normal "tricycle" steering - turn right to go right only works when the bike is upright. If you are going fast enough to lean the bike in a turn, then the classical "counter" steering input is required to tip the bike (unless you are heavy enough to tip the bike against the natural desire to tip against the steering input)
The knee against the tank is also talked about in that book. By doing that (or pressing on the pegs), it's not the force you apply to the tank that causes the effect, but where it allows you to position your body, and that modifies the centre of gravity of the bike+rider, which in turn helps set the turn radius for the speed you are carrying. By pressing on the tank, you are actually moving your upright positioned body mass towards the centre of the turn, contributing to the effective lean angle. A similar effect is gained by shifting your weight inwards on the seat an perhaps even hanging low of the side, like GP racers. It's all just moving the centre of mass closer to the centre of the turn, for more turning force.
Keep the videos coming. I think this sport is a great idea. Hoping we can get is started where I live.
You're close to understanding what is happening here. The steering movement is all done with the bars. In a left hand turn the first move of the bars is actually to the left, then the bike is counter-steered, then bars turned to the left to counter the bike falling over. It feels like swinging the bike into the turn, rather than forcing the bike into the turn, and is much more natural/effective. The bike also takes a much more circular path around the turn, rather than a parabola. If everybody learned how to do this there would be a lot less accidents, as steering is learnt intuitively, but, in a panic situation the conscious mind can't work out which way to turn the bars to get the required effect. This is why some people just go off the road on a corner they should easily have got round. Its nothing to do with 'target fixation'. The movements are so small, it is why there is so many people giving different advice. Brakes and throttle are used for balance as well. But if you can steer properly then you have a lot more options when it comes to getting around a bend.
I would love to be able to learn this. Any suggestion on how to learn it without dropping my really expensive bike? Despite the negative comments below, you have skills that I doubt many of the people below can demonstrate. These skills could save me from injury or death someday and would LOVE to learn this kind of thing. Suggestions?
Douglas Hughes invest in crash bars
I have them front and rear but the design of the BMW K1600 is such that even with the crash bars you can be in danger of damaging very expensive tupperware even with the best crash bars. It is the only down fall of the bike IMO
We are doing training courses to learn this, because there are some things I am doing that I can't show in a video, you'll need to feel it. This is why during the trianing course, I am asking people to come as passenger with me :)
Where are you?
AntiPiloteDeLigneDroite I'm thinking about starting a gymkhana group here in Atlanta. Will be a great way to experience the bikes performance without an expensive track day or sliding off the side of a mountain.
At 2:35, you exit a R turn with the bike leaned R and the wheel turned R,
you then lift the bike up by adding some power which gives you L
momentum and the bike goes straight over the top and falls to the L.
There is no need for the quick flick of CS as the bike is already falling to the L.
You've set up the pylons at the right distance apart that each L turn follows the
previous R turn immediately. This is just trick riding, nothing to do with
riding in a straight line then making a turn. Place the pylons 50 yards apart ok?
If you straightened the bike up first and kept it upright for a while to lose that
momentum then there is no way you could do that L turn without CS.
You can't buck physics mate. And of course you look where you are going:
your eyes are closed or you look straight ahead for only about 1 second then
at the apex of each turn your head flicks round and you look back towards
the next turn. The bike follows. All standard stuff. Basically you've taught
yourself a trick. But I can see it could have some value in some situations.
I'm afraid you ride like the rest of us really: nothing to see here, move along.
It would be a good idea to read through the theory again so you get a better
grasp of the physics and mechanics of turns, but great riding skills: respect.
Distances between cones doesn't occur, as during races, the distance is never the same, and it stills work. If I have more straight line, I will just have to brake more before with the front brake... Again, this will prevent me for using counter steering (I mean, I will not have to push the handlebar to lean, as you can see it here: ua-cam.com/video/cgtmuS8WFLU/v-deo.html)
And the bike doesn't follow my look, but my look fall the bike: when I reach full lock, then I look the next goal to adjust the throttle.
But you are judging me with your eyes and your experience, and it is always hard to see something we are not ready to see, so I understand, I am used to that.
How do I learn this?
You can do a training course in Japan, or here, but in France :)
technically dont you just need to use rear brake? as in alot of your videos you do it without hands
It depends of what you want lol Rear brake is enough for a safe riding, sure :)
Very interesting, it would be nice to know how to practice that safety, to have both skills of riding would be awesome
Japanese are used to do that :) I can teach it too, but I am in France...
Darn, I'm in USA, I'll do some research, thanks
It will be hard, as it seems that in US, you have a way of riding completely different from this one, and reading comments written here by some US guys, what I am showing here is like the devil lol
Not every body is open minded as you are :(
I've tried doing this but my bike can't really run smooth below 4k rpm lol
You cann fix that by using your clutch, or using in the same time your throttle and your rear brake, but it is hard to do :)
Yeah I definitely gotta practice more but my whole bike shakes and clutches aren't cheap to replace on my bike lol
So, try to find the correct balance between your trottle and your rear brake (a rear brake is cheaper to replace) :)
I'll be watching more vids! I'm assuming it's easier when you have handle bar raisers on a sportbike?
Yes, it is. But the only difficult with original bars of a sportbikes is that you are too closed from the tank. This is why I changed mince, but I do not use a straight one (I don't like that) :)
This method really only works at low speeds. In fact it is the best method at low speeds. The only other way to make turns that tight involves sliding the rear tire. Something I have mastered on my dirt & dual sport bikes but not on a street bike.
You can do it even with more speed. I teach it to my students, and they use it during lessons on traffic lanes, so with more speed.
And it works with every bike. But I don't think you can learn it on your own. Or it will be very hard :)
You can turn in with the front brake slightly on. It's called trail braking
Yop :)
awesome
Thank you :)
which bike is that?
Honda CBR650F
If I am not mistaken, we do not drive a bike. We ride it. Nice demo anyway.
You almost have to be this good to pass the motorcycle test at the dmv.
vacantrider true that. I did it in a hail storm & on a bike with an extreme jerky throttle.
No offense meant but I can see counter weight provided by the turning speed. You do not need your body for that. And at slow speed you can not countersteer when turning so you turn the bar. All I see is that theres someone that can turn without looking where he wants to go (which is nothing extraordinary). Is this really worth doing a vid about?
I see no offense in what you say (and thank you for that), but I don't really do what you say :) I don't turn the handlebar, it turns alone, thanks to the leaning. About counter weight, you're right: I don' t do it with my body, but I let the centrifugal force do it (but it is not the turning speed only).
But what you don't see, is the size of the turn, compared with the speed. Two parking boxes are 5m wide. And I add some stop steer on this bike.
If you want to realize the difference, you can try to do a GP8. It is a small race of 5 u-turn in a direction, 4, in the other direction, with 12m between both u-turn, with 40cm cones. The start/stop boxe is 3m from the first cone, and 1m wide. You can see here one of my try (and I am not the faster): ua-cam.com/video/goQqM-5HFao/v-deo.html
See how many times you need to do that, what is your speed at the beginning of the turn, and the wide of your u-turn (if you could find a similar bike than mine, it could be great).
Please try :) being under 32s is a great time when we start. If you can do that, oki, my video is useless for you. But if not...
yup, nothing to see here folks, move along.
why theres so much hate here? gotto gv the guy credits for putting up some infos about handling a bike. some 'Pros' wouldnt agree? but then again what is proper when u have a ton of HP. just take what u can.. and not what u dont
im a beginner driver and sometimes i make turns this way i now realise
slower turns but not too slow, this turns feel different, something like guiding motorcycle into turn
and turning like this feels easy, problem is i do it without thinking and proly could not repeat them on request :-/
It's good you notice this mate. Body position, observation and use of the controls are indeed a fine balance. For example, in low speed riding I use the rear brake a lot more to control speed and actually push the bike down to make the bike turn in a smaller radius at times. That's the opposite of what i'd do on the open road. As always , there's loads of "information" on youtube which must not be confused with wisdom. Try an advanced motorcycling course... sounds shit but it will make you a better (wiser) rider.
Don't understand all the haters lol. Also, nobody should be criticizing your English unless they speak at least two languages.. Your riding is incredible.. Do you know anyone who teaches the basics of this style in Southern California?
Hey thank you :)
No, I don't know who can teach you this kind of riding in South California. As I can know, you'll have to go to Japanto learn this. Or in my city ;) This year, I already have somebody from California who is coming here to learn this :)
wonderful wish I could try that on my sporty, but I think I'd dump it on the first turn!!
Don't try it: here is not a how to, it is only to show that it is possible. But to do it, you'll need to learn a lot af new things about body position, brake, lean, etc...
Which bike is this ? #bikes
It is Honda CBR650F
I believe, counter steering is the only way to lean the bike. I said "I believe" because I am neither an instructor nor a scientist. In other "techniques" or way of riding, I believe, riders applies counter steering unintentionally ... happy ridings ...
I am an instructor too. And I WAS thinking that counter steering was the only way to lean, before. But I changed my mind, since I saw some riders (and me), being able to lean without their hand on the hnadlebar. In this case, how is it possible to counter steer, either unintentionnally ? :)
As I mentioned, I think handlebar gets effected somehow even without hands on the handlebar. To lean the bike a centrifuge effect has to be occured and I think only way to trigger that is counter steering. I am a huge fan of it :) ... an other example, when I get of my bike from the center stand I steer to right a little so I avoid to crash the bike on its right side, bike leans to left smoothly. I think you are a good instructor, at least you are open to positive discussion. Have a good one ...
Thank you :) I didn't say counter steering doesn't work. I think it works. But it is not the only way to lean, and what we do now, is safer, as the front wheel is free :)
Awesome riding. When you first practiced this type of cornering did you have many accidents to become so good.
Thank you :)
Only one, but it was BEFORE, and it is thanks to him that I decided to change my way of driving. Now, when I am falling, I have no injure, the bike is not broken, and it happens only when I play to much with the limits lol
How do you learn all that without dropping your bike a thousand times?
Thanks to the Physic, and my knowledge about how our body feels sensations... so it is not natural, and this is why I am doing training courses to teach to other people :)
I think people like to say the words "Counter Steer".
It seems, indeed :)
there's no rights and wrongs between the soul in a bike and their owner. that's why some people just need to wait for the right bike for them to do something like this.
This video implies something not true and shows no understanding of what makes a bike turn. In that sense this video is dangerous. Angle to road and frame/fork geometry are what turns a bike.. How you achieve that angle can vary but counter steering is what happens, whether it is conscious or induced. Counter steering is what the bike geometry and physic dictate. It's not magic. Just , maybe, counter intuitive to some people. Counter steering is a subtle angle change in the steering head, compared to the handle bar angle in these slow speed turns, so not really visible in these videos. It doesn't mean that it is not there. Not looking where you want to go. So what? We can all do that. Doesn't make it safe.
When I say "I don't use counter steering", I only say that I don't push the handlebar, as you can see it in some videos where I can do turns without my hands on the handlebar. Because it seems that lot of people think that it is the only way to lean. I completely agree with your explication of how it works (I explained it again this morning during a training course).
About the look, I don't think lot of people could do it (again, I can see that during the training courses I do with people who already have a licence to ride a motorcycle, and a few of them are able to do it without help). But it helps to let the bike to do what it has to do, without having our will who would like to do another trajectory.
Trying to do a U-turn as tight than these one with the same kind of bike and with the same speed at the beginning without falling, requires another use of what we are used to do with a bike, about position of body, brakes, trajectory... This kind of U-turn is very different of what the police officers in the US (or in France) are doing, for example.
Cool. Thanks for the reply. I understand what you are saying. There are many different ways to present information to students. It's great that you have given your time to put together this video.
Thank you :) I am glad that we could have a positiv discussion :)
Positive discussion is always good and I really only have one interest. To learn something new to further my own riding skills so I am interested in teasing out and understand what you mean by 'Energetic Drivability'. Are you interested in some questions and a bit of a discussion?
Hi Mike, sorry for the delay, but I have so much comments these last days, that I can't answer them all :( I don't know what happens, but since several days, there is an explosion of comments :(
Please tell me what you want to know, I will do my best to answer it :)
Wow, those are some great skills...and I can‘t even pass my motorcycle test. 😑
Thank you
Very similar to Japanese style u-turns my friend
Thank you, they said me the same, I am happy :)
Master🙏
Thank you :)
A pretty amazing display of skill. I'm not saying I fully understand the techniques involved, but I am fascinated by all riding techniques and always have an open mind. Very rarely is there ever ONE best way to do something, especially in sports. Merci beaucoup!
thank you :)
Nice video. I like the difference from american school style. Illustrated with the Physics of what and why helps me understand what I'm seeing and how it's different from what I practice. I'm always up for new knowledge and seeing is believing.
Thanks
Gypsy
Thank you. As you say, it is different. And on this other video, you can seehow it goes on a big bike like BMW 1200RT:
ua-cam.com/video/ZMl3Y-4Tcrc/v-deo.html
And on this one, you will see more physical explications:
ua-cam.com/video/cgtmuS8WFLU/v-deo.html
& I have just had a light bulb moment as it is like Kayaking & Kayak Rolling & once you have trained the body to do the job Looking does not actually count because it is muscle memory.
Not only: yes, your light bulb moment is not so bad :)
Countersteering is the most efficient way to turn at higher speeds. Turning the bike using handlebars is better at lower speeds. Whats more to add here? And "you go where you look" naturally does not apply when the bike simply follows the handlebars at low speeds :) you dont really turn with your eyes :D
We do agree about the look, but not with the handlebar : I don't turn it, even if I am "at slow speed". And even at higher speed, I don't use it. But it is hard to understand, as you are not doing the same than me. This doesn't mean that I don't believe that countersteering works (I used it a lot before), but now I am doing anotehr way :)
I think I have to do the next video about a new u-turn, which will show some strange things about counter steering...
I still think high handle bars are a big aid to performing motogymkana
I've seen GSXR-750s there.... impressive. But agree, high bars a great help.