For those of you who are confused- use a “tunable” gas block, low mass bolt carrier group, and an adjustable buffer system like the JP for a sweet shooting, reliable platform. Being able to regulate the gas and keep a low mass carrier moving as slowly as possible to reliably cycle the action is the best option for recoil mitigation. JP makes some fantastic stuff! Thanks!
jcllings if it’s like my Hogan that has a reversible gas piston you can reverse it to mitigate recoil. One direction is for standard operation and the other is for suppressed operation. Just take the piston out of the gas block, turn it around, and reinstall. If you don’t have that option you can still use a tunable buffer system like what is shown in this video. Outside of that, or maybe a brake, you can’t do much else. Pistons are not designed to be lighter recoiling- they’re made to be more reliable than a standard DI gas system. Whether they are or not might be able to be covered in a different video.
Which doesn't work well with large frame AR's in say .260 vs a small frame AR in say 6.5 Grendel. I set up the .260 the same way I did the Grendel where I gas regulated it, that doesn't work when suppressed. Exactly as described, huge port pressure spike and the bolt getting slammed around even with the adjustable gas block turned almost completely in. So mass regulation is how you solve the problem. I prefer going lightweight bolt carrier, SCS, and an adjustable gas block, but suppressed large frames don't behave the same way I've learned.
I totally understand what he is saying but honestly I own weapons not trinkets ( no disrespect intended) and the moment you start taking away mass from ANY pert of the firing group you are immediately risking a malfunction that you can't possibly be CERTAIN of the cause right off whilst in the shit . I understand perfectly it's just not the right thing for me . Have no idea what's right for anyone else. I don't think it's right to be telling uninformed ppl that are going to believe they have a guaranteed boom every time . i assure you change your buffer or spring value BCG. weight not material thankfully we do have 2 bcg upgrades that ACTUALLY improve the combat ready reliable AR . BCG finish and bolt material . Mil-spec needs to update . Otherwise you will have some bolt hop that may even be imperceptible to you until parts are already worn . . It will make your gun run doing what he says I agree but it IS not can or might IS going to fail and you now have a minimum if 3 options instead of be sure about the instant diagnosis you will have with factory weight stuff . The rifle will tell you exactly what it is by its behavior .
@ManiacallyYours Semi auto is almost never used in the military. If military personnel adopted your mentality, they would have never ditched the .308 for the 5.56.
Thanks for some of the best rifle parts I've ever purchased, and KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT rather than some of these schmucks who talk, but have no real idea.
The buffer will get you to the right chapter. The gas block will get you to the right page. (If you really care) But just remember that a D is passing, so you don't have to fine tune it that much. 3-430 is all you're lookin for.
Like your part and love your videos starring JP. However, I believe that an important point was missed when talking about regulation -- especially gas regulation. When you load single round mags and adjust the gas pressure until the bolt barely locks up you are AT THE LOWEST END OF THE ACCEPTABLE BOLT VELOCITY RANGE. Any less and the gun wouldn't cycle properly. It should be mentioned that any one who shoots more than one kind of ammo in their rifles -- which is most people -- should do the gas port adjustment using the ammo that generates the lowest pressures and the shortest impulse. This generally means that load featuring the lightest bullet from that brand that loads that weight most mildly. Always adjust with the lightest, weakest ammo you shoot, not your favorite ammo. Fiddling with tungsten weights is not quite that sensitive, but the same concept applies. Eg. If you shoot 110gr Vmaxes, 149gr surplus ball and 175 gr GMM in your 308. You should adjust your gas block with the 110 Vmaxes. The rifle will work with the 149 and 175. But, if you adjust with the 175, I can almost guarantee that the lighter loads will not lock the bolt carrier and possibly may not strip the next round and/or eject properly.
@@newerest1 Outside temperature also does not matter all that much! Sound counter intuitive, but it's true... When temperature drops, burn rate of powders drop. While this generally reduces muzzle velocity it also means that more powder burn happens later into the bullet's time in the barrel with the pressure peak and decay shifting to the right! That, plus the slower bullet spending more time in the barrel after it clears the gas port, combine to greatly mitigate the loss in port pressure and dwell available to cycle the weapon. -- The AR, and most military rifles with the exception og the likes of the Ultimax 100, have a very short cyclic stroke. That is, there is very little bolt travel after it clears the hold open lever and when it bottoms out and smacks into the buffer. This makes tuning it just right such that it locks open but does not reach the end of its travel largely impractical. You are playing with something like a quarter of an inch here. So, any reliable rifle will tend to have some smack in exchange for cyclic reliability. You can minimize the effects of that smack by reducing the reciprocating mass -- such as using a low mass BCG or buffer weights. But, a lot of that is designed into the rifle and there is only so much you can do. The FN FAL for instance has a MUCH LOWER reciprocating mass than a 308 AR -- just look at the size of the BCG! Hence, it is inherently a more controllable rifle in burst or rapid fire.
@@dwightlooi The powder is converted within a fraction of a second and fully burned before the bullet has traveled anywhere near the port. Extreme cold conditions absolutely do affect cyclic rate. These are some of the most difficult sets of conditions for military rifles to pass, which is why the ports are drilled the way they are.
@@LRRPFco52 I am pretty sure they do. But think about it this way... cold temperatures basically turn a faster powder into a slower powder. Two things happen when the powder burns slower. The first being that the pressure peaks become lower. But the second is that that entire pressure curve is shifted to the right. Your pressure port is located somewhere on the X axis and moving the curve to the right INCREASES the pressure when the bullet reaches the port. This in part compensates for the drop in magnitude.
Very well explained. No free lunch so you need to figure out what’s important to you. Light weight systems and low gas can be ammo sensitive. Heavy weight systems are forgiving but have more recoil/reciprocating mass.
Built a 762x39 11” barrel ar with a oden works adjustable buffer and adjustable gas block. After going back-and-forth adjusting the weights on the buffer and the pressure with the adjustable gas block looking for the perfect combination I ended up switching the buffer to a standard weight buffer and adjusting the pressure on the gas block till it felt And cycled right.
Old video, but good information. My next 300blk build is going to have a high mass BCG and Buffer, accompanied by a 10 position adjustable gas system. Shooting suppressed with 220gr subs I plan to start with the highest mass and lowest gas and work my way to that sweet spot.
Spring rate is constant. Spring force generated will depend on the amount of spring deflection from the free state of the spring. F=MxA (Force equals Mass multiplied by acceleration). On the rebound of the BCG, the only force created will depend on the spring rate and how much compression (deflection) there is in that spring which will depend on how far back the BCG (with the now empty shell casing) moves from the forces created by the gas system. The mass involved is pretty self explanatory (anything moving). The BCG and buffer are the two main mass items moving forward (plus part of the spring and the new cartridge being chambered from the magazine). There is friction involved in the movement, of course. You have a couple items to mess with for forward movement of the BCG (total mass of moving items and spring rate). Rearward movement of the BCG will depend on the output of the gas system (pressure and duration), masses that are already mentioned, and buffer spring force to overcome (plus any friction).
Don't know if I am just dense and completely missing the point, but after your explanation, it all makes perfect sense...as I said, either I am missing the entire point or you actuaLly explained this conundrum clearly and concisely...well done sir, and thank you for shedding light on what, to many (including myself) often appears as murky as voodoo...
How can a 'typical shooter' determine if their individual rifle is operating in the 'sweet-spot' of bolt velocity as you recommend? I understand, and agree, that there are two ways to regulate bolt velocity with either variable port pressure or variable reciprocating mass of the BCG/Buffer combination. I also understand how the presence or absence of a suppressor and/or variable barrel configurations (ie. carbine vs. mid-length vs. rifle length) affect port/gas system pressure which is the driving force of bolt movement. Presumably, when the system short-cycles, the velocity is too low, but it is not clear how to diagnose when bolt velocity is too high or when you are in the 'sweet spot'. I'm uncertain that simple observation of ejection of expended cases at 2 o'clock vs. 4o'clock is sufficiently accurate, especially considering that some receivers to not have shell deflectors which may perturb that action. Please help!
So to be clear would you always recommend a heavier buffer or heavier BCG over an adj gas block or just the two in conjunction? I've had good results with the adj gas block but I don't like having another component to fool with.
I like to think of the mass and the gas like a coarse adjustment and a fine adjustment respectively. Changing your mass moves the theoretical "needle" in greater chunks, like hitting your tab key on your keyboard, whereas your gas block should let you more finely move the needle, like hitting the spacebar on your keyboard. Not a perfect metaphor but maybe more readily grasped than comparing it to the coarse and fine adjustment on a microscope. For a competition rifle, a lower mass might (depending on your gas port, barrel length, gas system, spring weight, environmental factors, etc) let you use a lower gas block setting and achieve lower recoil, faster follow-ups, all the things competition shooters like.
I have the Ultra Low Mass BCG and the new Silent Captured Spring buffer system with the different springs set which I have yet to install. I'd like to know what's the best way to tune this for low recoil impulse and competition applications. Do we want to use the heaviest SCS spring that doesn't bounce the BCG and bolt back in battery or lightest spring? Do we dial in the desired spring before tuning the gas to lock back on an empty magazine?
JPRifles Too light can also have a slow recovery. You really need to "feel" the different impulses. I used to do the lightest spring, too. It was definitely softest on the shoulder. However, it had a "Cha-Chunk" feel. Going to a slightly faster spring, it became more "Cha-Cha-Cha" and it was easier to keep a shooting cadence.
I'm running a Daniel Defense MK-18 MOD 1 with a Gemtech Suppressed Bolt Carrier system, and a Radian Weapons Raptor SD fluted charging handle, obviously with those 2 mods pushing the excess suppressor gasses out the ejection port, I need a good balanced buffer that will not only help facilitate the operation on the bolt, but quiet the mechanical operation of the weapon down as well. What tension spring, and how many of the Tungsten weights would you recommend for your JP Silent Captured Spring Gen 2 Buffer System.
Run the standard h2 I have a very similar set up it runs great suppressed with the h2 silent capture system I also have a adjustable bcg and geissele charging handle and I capped off my forward assist also to help with blowback
Man, if I could have the pleasure of owning a DD then I wouldn't touch a thing on her. I honestly wish I never shot one. I've purchased 2 AR's and built 2, favorite of the bunch is my sons of Liberty Gun Works 16"....but anyways a buddy of mine got a DD and let me run a course with the rifle, "he's a real sweetheart". But the second I fired the rifle for the first time it just felt perfect. Everything from the sound, the feel, the awesome cheek weld I was able to achieve with his 1-6x LPVO. Everything just felt easier to do and I shot the best I ever had up until that time at the course. They make amazing rifles.
I have a PWS AR10 piston gun in 7.62 rifle with a 14.5 inch barrel. What JP- SCS buffer configuration do you recommend I use? Thank you for any suggestions!
If im reading it correctly your chart says to use a JCSCS2-10H2 for my AR10 piston gun with adjustable gas block, but the section before that says not to use your system with a adjustable gas block piston gun in standard or heavy configuration?
A very elegant approach indeed. Out of curiosity, have you ever experimented slowing down bolt speed by regulating the gas flow rate through the restriction of the flow via a smaller ID in the gas tube instead of restricting/venting the gas at the gas block?
There was a company that did that. You could adjust the choke through a vent hole on carbine handguards from the top. Haven't seen them in a long time though. Railed handguards and float tubes made that interface untenable. There are also flow regulators in bolt carriers, which I've been using lately. Bootleg and 2A Armament have those. Gemtech used to make one too. There are also 2 different carrier keys with adjustable gas on the back end of them, using large set screws that choke the flow path from the key into the carrier.
I was just about to ask y'all what should i do in regard to the VMOS carrier the regular or heavy version, for a 16" 308? Would i abandon the idea of an adjustable gas block all together? Thanks for uploading this video.
Will do. I'm going to stick with the original plan for the VMOS and adjustable gas block. Might give y'all a shout as to which VMOS to get paired with which SCS. Thanks for the response.
How does the VMOS with the lowest mass configuration compare to the Aluminum or the Steel LMOS for a small-frame AR? What about on the heavy end? What are the disadvantages of the VMOS on a regular 556 AR (16'', DI, unsuppressed)? Thanks
JP i'm new to the AR family building my first a AR308 with a 18" barrel what system do you reccommend for this rifle. I plan too use it for some comp. shooting and for a hog hunt thanks Dennis Dikowski
The key is to have the correct amount of gas and mass regulation for they type of use the firearm is intended to see. There are totally different requirements for a competition 3-gun race rifle compared to a duty/defense style rifle that will be run suppressed at least part of the time.
This has always confused me. What we are experiencing as recoil is a product of force. So you can adjust force with mass or velocity. Why do I need to regulate both?
JP has been at this for 20 years now. They literally set the standard for competition AR-15s in action shooting, and every company in that space copies JP.
@@andygrew4832 Who hasn't copied JP? JP pioneered: * Adjustable gas blocks for the AR-15 * AR muzzle brakes * Lightwwight Free float tubes * Adjustable competition triggers * Billet AR receivers * Lightweight Bolt Carriers * Tunable action springs and buffer systems * AR-15 barrel radiators He completely changed the market for high-end performance AR-15s and AR-10s.
I dont have enough money or time to try and find the perfect BCG and buffer setup. My rifle is shooting overgassed at the 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock position any suggestions on which setup would be good? I also changed my carbine buffer with an H2 and i saw no difference in where my cartridges were landing.
An adjustable gas block will give you the ability to tune the rifle easily. If you don't want to change out the gas block, you could try taking the buffer weight from H2 (~4.6oz) to H3 (~5.4oz). On the JPSCS2-15H2 (two 2nd generation tungsten masses and one 2nd generation stainless steel mass) Silent Captured Spring system, you would simply remove the one remaining 2nd generation stainless steel buffer mass and replace it with a 2nd generation tungsten mass. If you are running a traditional/mil-spec style buffer and spring system, you may need to purchase a completely different buffer to achieve the H3 mass.
Honestly, people get far too worked up about where their brass is going. I used to be the same way and became fixated on it but had a buddy let me use his adjustable buffer tube and I bought a sprinco white and red buffer spring. Now, literally with ALL my rifles I get a sprinco red buffer spring and an adjustable buffer weight. Then the next step is to take your two choice rounds, "I go by the round I practice with and the round I use for defensive measures". Now, take both of said rounds and put 1 in one magazine, one in the other. Your only goal from this point is to make sure after firing that single round that your bolt will go to the locking position on an empty mag. You do this all the way up to the heaviest you can go with the buffer until your bolt will no longer reliably lock back after shooting the 1 round mag. All systems are very different. I have 3 different 16" AR's that are practically built the same per milspec that are just using different brand part even though almost all parts are practically identical. Each of the 3 rifles have drastically different buffer weights in them. 1 of them I couldn't get to lock back past just 3.7oz while one of the others I'm able to reliably run my buffer weight at 5.15oz. All 3 shoot and feel practically identical as far as perceived recoil and sight realignment and all 3 like to spit brass right around the 3 o'clock position but honestly they could be spitting anywhere from 1-5 o'clock and I honestly could care less. As long as the rifle is reliable and feels good then it truly doesn't matter until you start mucking around with suppressors.
So why does it different to remove mass from BCG compare to buffer, if they are going to move in unity? For example, why should I get the Aluminum BCG compare to just remove a weight from the SCBS(assuming the overall weight of the moving mass is same) ?
They do work in tandem, like you say. It depends on how much you want to change the weight. The difference between our low mass steel carrier and the aluminum carriers is almost 3 oz. Assuming you're going from a tungsten mass to a steel in your SCS, that's saving you about 1/4 oz.
@@JPRifles thank you so much for reply. I have been so confused on this topic. I am wondering in this case why would we have weight on buffer at all? It seems like we could just have a no weight on the SCBS right ?
Correct. A heavier buffer slows down the higher pressure gas, which results in less kick and more controlled brass ejection. Pistols need the heaviest buffers because the pressure is so much higher, versus a rifle length gas system. But an adjustable gas block controls the amount of gas, allowing a person to run the standard buffer on any gas system.
so what do you suggest for a 10.5 inch 5.56 AR that is extremely over gassed? should i keep the carbine buffer weight and use an adjustable gas block or should i change the weight of the buffer? and i am not running this gun suppressed...
Heavier buffer and stronger spring, Purchase JP Enterprises Tuned and Polished Buffer Spring AR 15, $20.00 MidwayUSA. Buy a food scale to weigh your buffers ($15.00). Buy the combination buffer weight kits and mix and match until you love it. (If your a PSA guy like me) the PSA gas port is a little large, buffers are light (under 3oz) and buffer springs are weak. Gun built for occasional shooter. Love PSA but these are just the facts ma’m. My son purchased a 7.5 from PSA buffer weighted 2.8oz weak worthless spring, bolt slammed so hard wouldn’t eject a single cartridge. He purchased an H3 buffer 5.4 oz and the JP spring and oh ya it’s a shooter. One mans opinion (from experience).
Holy hell you're using a carbine buffer weight in a 10.5? If you changed the buffer weight alone you would have a completely different feeling rifle and if you pair it with sprinco red then you'll be in heaven.
So how does a mere mortal know what the bolt velocity "sweet spot" is? Then how do you know whether your bolt/buffer system is too light or too heavy? What are the symptoms of each?
I use ejection pattern as a gauge, if the brass is wacking the case deflector and lauching to the moon youre over gassed, if your rifle wont lock open properly or has a weak ejection around 5 to 4 o clock youre too slow.
I completely understand searching for the optimal bolt sweet spot and recoil impulse. However, it seems like your talking about balancing over gassing, BCG travel time, and recoil impulse with a silent capture/lightweight BCG and weights. What’s the point of producing a lightweight BCG, just to add more weight on it? I love my light weight 3 gun labs BCG. If I wanted a heavier BCG I’d swap it for a M16 profile. Adjustable gas blocks and the choice of buffer weight seems like a much more affordable, faster and time proven method. Never mind the the type of ammo your shooting. Whether it be subsonic, super, or hand load. I’m sorry. I just don’t get it. Are you discussing a common problem. Or are you discussing a problem with the products you produce?
There are times when less reciprocating mass is a benefit and there are time when more reciprocating mass is a benefit. Two specific scenarios would be a rifle that you would like to run suppressed vs an all out 3-gun race rifle. You want more mass in the suppressed rifle to help keep the bolt closed a little longer so the excess pressure can drop. Whereas the goal on the 3-gun rifle is reduce reciprocating mass to minimize felt recoil. I would also still have one of our adjustable gas blocks installed on both examples.
Jacob Dohogne a heavier bcg and buffer is will give you greater momentum to strip off and chamber the next round, assuming the same spring rate. In competition I'd make the trade off of a steadier sight picture over 100% reliability. In a duty/HD rifle I'd stick with a full m-16 profile BCG and an H or H2 buffer with a regular carbine spring. Also realize a heavier spring rate will decrease the time your magazine has to feed the next round. So standard rate spring with an H or H2 for utmost reliability.
Oh really? Doesn't a heavier buffer and BCG take more energy to move rearward leaving less "rebound" energy coming forward? Of course it does. And there's so no such thing as the "same spring rate" since the LOAD ON A SPRING is a "factor" in its "rate". Identical springs produce different "spring rates" as the loads they're subjected to change. If all you "sight-obsessed" shooters were better shots and hit the freaking target in the "bullseye" with the first shot you wouldn't have to be obsessed with having your sights "stay on target" for "subsequent" shots.
I consulted a former DOD weponds developer who has 30 years experience. We talked about all these products, and piston systems. He doesn't think too highly of a lot of these products. Especially anything low mass. Reliability becomes an issue. So does breakage. Be careful what gimmicks you throw money at. Be prepared to spend extra money on additional parts to tune. And time. Additionally, you won't get answers from these companies about comparability with all these cool parts. They will tell you to give them all your money. Buyer beware.
@@deeremeyer1749 I have to disagree. If you don't change out a spring, its spring rate will not change. Different loads will behave differently on a given spring but the spring rate has not changed. Only the load has changed.
@@deeremeyer1749 Spring rate is constant. Spring force generated will depend on the amount of spring deflection from the free state of the spring. F=MxA (Force equals Mass multiplied by acceleration). On the rebound of the BCG, the only force created will depend on the spring rate and how much compression (deflection) there is in that spring which will depend on how far back the BCG (with the now empty shell casing) moves from the forces created by the gas system. The mass involved is pretty self explanatory (anything moving). The BCG and buffer are the two main mass items moving forward (plus part of the spring and the new cartridge being chambered from the magazine). There is friction involved in the movement, of course. You have a couple items to mess with for forward movement of the BCG (total mass of moving items and spring rate). Rearward movement of the BCG will depend on the output of the gas system (pressure and duration), masses that are already mentioned, and buffer spring force to overcome (plus any friction).
Already ordered the adjustable JP Gas Block. Next to help my custom 300 blackout to cycle in the sweet spot I want to go with the adjustable bolt carrier and JP Silent Capture. My system is the pistol length 10.5 inch barrel. Can you post the links to the 2 parts you would highly recommend for me to complete my build? Thank you JP!
We prefer to do the gas adjustments at the gas block. If the gas restriction is at the gas key or in the carrier, all of the excess gas coming out of the gas tube is going into your receiver and action.
matt kehn ehhhhhh..... Yeah they do. And good ones have a “tunable” gas piston. I have one that can be removed and reversed for suppressed operation to help mitigate recoil. Recoil is definitely more of a concern with piston rifles. Mine is all Nickel Boron everything so it cleans with literally a wipe of a paper towel, so there are definitely benefits. The buffer might be one of the only tunable parts on a piston AR!
First time I shot at AR, it was the original version. I fired it in basic training, and the last time I fired it was to re-qualify. I shot expert Marksman with the temperature of 8 Below Zero on a 20 knot wind in my face. I even fired the right and left post rest in full auto. It was getting cold. At no time did I ever feel like this five and a half pound 22 recoil enough to need any kind of recoil mitigation. The most irritating thing about it was the way the recoil spring would ring in your ear as you're firing the next shot. Recoil was so negligible as to be almost non-existent. I do understand trying to mitigate gas pressures in this firearm that has shown a propensity to dump primers into the trigger works and jam itself. I don't know if the suppressor exacerbates that problem or not, however it certainly can't help. Perhaps it's because I was originally trained on the M14 when I was doing army training before I went in the Air Force. But I never found this pipsqueak gun to have enough recoil to worry about.
I agree that the .223/5.56mm cartridge does not recoil much compared to a larger intermediate one like the 7.62 Nato. That is about where the accuracy of your statement ends. I haven't heard of any US Military branch that actually qualifies under full auto with the M16, nor have I heard of an issued M16 to be 5 pounds. If you're using any standard length (20" barrel) M16 or variant then the weight is about 7.5lb. Plus if you think this is such a wasted effort to tune your rifle to the best it is able to be then why even comment on a system that helps do just that? The less wasted gas you use to operate the action then the more potential velocity to the bullet with the added benefit of comfort and faster reacquisition of the target. Don't forget that the jamming issue you're speaking to is also fixed by... wait for it... tuning your rifle to the application you use it for.
@@jackshett apparently you seem to have misunderstood my comment. You don't engage in war by giving somebody a half design rifle like McNamara did. Secondly the original M16 weighed 5.5 pounds. I know there was about 9 variants that were built with titanium barrels that weighed 4 1/2 pounds. That was the whole point of the design of the rifle to be a lightweight defensive weapon. Not an assault weapon. And the last time that I qualified as expert Marksman with that same rifle which was blisteringly accurate by the way, it was January and Idaho and I had a 20. Wind in my face and the wind chill was a below zero. I did the post rest position, right-hand and left-hand, in full auto. I still shot a 3 inch group at a hundred yards. It was freaking cold and I didn't want to be out there any longer and I had to be. The problem with the weapon is when you're standing in front of a field of elephant grass you can't shoot through it. The seven six two dozen recoil a little bit more than a556 it we coils a hell of a lot more than a five five six. It is, although technically an intermediate cartridge. It's ballistics are functionally identical to the 30.06. The only thing that qualifies ar-223 is an intermediate cartridge is the fact that the neck is shorter than the 223 Remington Magnum. The ballistics are identical. As it's the exact same case with a shorter neck. I don't care how much you tune the goddamn M16. The 55 grain Full Metal Jacket is great for producing wounds as long as you don't have to shoot through any kind of barrier to get to the flesh. The other round will go through barriers and even some armor, but won't produce enough wounding capacity to put someone down. That has been untenable ever since they designed the damn rifle. But Gene Stoner knew that that's why he thought that using it as your main rifle was a Fool's errand. McNamara murdered a high number of soldiers forcing them to carry an incomplete design into battle. Are there uses for the cartridge, yes. My personal close-quarters battle carbine is a Mini-14 the folds into a very compact package. But I do understand the limitations of the cartridge, but in clothes quarters fighting, as long as you're not trying to shoot through even moderate barriers. It is an excellent round. We are now sixty years from the Inception of the M16 / AR-15. Is it a good weapon system, yes. But it also weighs 8 1/2 pounds. The issued M14 weighs 9 1/2 lb. Most soldiers who picked up an M14, 96% could shoot a 2 inch group at a hundred yards with iron sights. That's not bad accuracy for Marksman grade shooters. Because of its lightweight and its influence by breathing, the original M16 wasn't usually shot that well. Even though it generally shot better than the M14. As far as its design indicates. The direct impingement system has a fatal flaw. It produces gas to a point that is immediately adjacent to the trigger mechanism importing at least part of the problem that the firearm requires it to be devoid of contamination to function cleanly. And you're argument that bleeding off gas only reduces the velocity of the projectile is devoid of understanding of gas operated systems. What do you think the gas Port is at the end of the barrel. You can't bleed enough gas from that part of the barrel and change the velocity by enough to measure. The reason I went to the Piston Drive AR version made by Ruger, is precisely that before Ruger puts, especially a semi-automatic firearm, out on the market they actually fired 25,000 rounds without cleaning before they release the firearm for production. Does it add a level of complexity, yes. But the advantages is that I can use ammo that those who have a direct impingement cannot. So it makes the weapon more usable in emergency situations where your source of ammunition may not be pure. If ultimate accuracy was all you were after. You get a bolt action rifle. I want owned a Ruger Model 77 in 7 mil mag with a load that I was given buy a benchrest shooter that I loaded up and the first 20 round group I fired out of that firearm measure, Center to Center spread of 049 in. it was the epitome of the long range capability throughout the 1980s. but at the bench it would beat the living hell out of you oh, but it was blisteringly accurate. Although an Antiquated design by today's standards. It makes a wonderful sniper platform. Almost everything has its use. But you must be careful to not put so much lipstick on it that you lose track of what it truly is. In the hands of Masters, Almost any weapon system can be superlative. The problem is is you need a superlative weapon system for the normal grunt to have a leg up. that is my only hope that they finally come to their senses and introduce a cartridge and system that they had the opportunity to before they killed thousands of men in Vietnam because some pencil Pusher in Washington demanded it.
@@44hawk28 This is why I don't typically reply to youtube comments. It becomes an argument with the internet tough-guy who thinks he knows everything, walked uphill in the snow both ways to school every day and otherwise simply lying out his a--. Fact checking you any further is a complete waste of time.
@@jackshett that's funny I don't care who you are. If you're depending on fact-check, I suggest you start doing a little bit more research. Let me give you a history lesson on fact check. The first time I ever employed it, I had pulled up the speech that Obama gave in Mombasa Kenya and a 6 minutes into the speech he stated that he was the first American president to be from Kenya. I pause the video, went to fact check and asked if in that speech Obama had admitted to being from Kenya. In fact check said no he never said any such thing. I went back to the video, washed where he said exactly that thing, and then went back-to-back check and it still stated that he had never said it. I've been studying ballistics since I was about 12 years old oh, I've been teaching firearm use since I was 14. My gunsmith has been shooting competition in thirty-ought-six since he was 13 or 14. And he is 12 years older than I am. I will take direct knowledge every single time. I do understand your misgivings of UA-cam, it is however just a comment section. But every once in awhile you get into a good conversation. I've run into some good ones and into some bad ones. The other person that I am discussing things with on this same thread, at least seems to have some knowledge. And isn't speaking in more generalized terms. He speaks about specific weaponry and platforms, and I only opine on the ones that I know , and have had experience with. And I'll bet money that you have no idea of why and what changes they made on firearms that increased their range so well in the last 8 years or so. Ruger actually produced a rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor that was shooting competent groups out to 1500 yards till everybody who had sighted there scopes at a hundred yards, instead of the 275 or 300 like you're supposed to if you intend on doing long range shooting, ran out of scope. You can disregard experience all you want. But first-hand experience by those who understand the Sciences involved can be a learning experience.
44 Hawk wrong. I read about 2 words you wrote after saying there’s no point to recoil reduction in such a lightly recoiling rifle and decided to reply. There are instances when recoil mitigation is everything. Like competition shooting- which JP is super involved with. There’s a reason shooters like Jerry Miculek modifies his guns. TO BE FASTER! That’s everything to shooters like him- and plenty of others. I doubt you’ll find anyone that will argue with you that the standard recoil of a standard AR-style rifle shooting standard 5.56 is a “heavy hitter” in terms of recoil. That’s the beauty of the platform- a lot of people can (clearly) shoot it really well- even off-hand in adverse conditions. I have a super tricked out AR that runs great in matches, but wouldn’t be my first choice of rifle if my life depended on it’s performance. People like different things, and build those things for different purposes. You don’t see very many stock Toyota Camry’s winning NASCAR races right? But that damn thing will sure as hell get your ass to work.
the only way to measure the gas pressure is by the bolt locking back on the last shot correctly and the spent cartridge ejection angle such as 1 oclock to 4 oclock position parallel to the gun position, with 1 oclock position being over gassed and 4 oclock position being the correct position.
You can get false readings using the clock pattern just from extractor geometry, ejector channel debris or spring binding, tight chamber dimensions, and spent brass deflector geometry. You can regulate the ejection pattern with ejector spring length too. Not all ejector springs are within TDP specs as it is.
So anywhere from "1 hour forward" and "1 hour rearward" of "sideways"? That's a pretty wide range of "ideal", isn't it? And how in the hell do you get an AR to eject empties FORWARD unless they're VIOLENTLY bouncing off the "brass deflector"? Do you know what the hell you're talking about?
@@snek9353 He was asking what ideal bolt velocity was in terms of design specification. Informing him on how you adjust your setup doesn't answer the question. Just because you don't know and you presume bolt velocity isn't measurable doesn't mean the question can't be answered with a specific figure. Someone knows, surely stoner and all who worked on the prototype know the numbers.
Theunofficialresults. Right now it’s a guess and check game. Some get lucky some not so much. I don’t want to buy the whole lot to find the one that I need! A guy should be able to calculate off of components. Buffer weight, length of gas tube, bullet weight and velocity too many cartridges to even begin (some of use reload), suppressed, not suppressed. And so on.
4739 0173 I just bought the Armaspec captured buffer to try in my 12.5. I got it cheap so I figured wtf. I have an adjustable gas block on it and a lightweight bcg. Haven't been out with it yet, but if it is worse than just the flat spring and H1, I can always switch it back. I'm like you, not endlessly funded to keep replacing parts that don't fix or at minimum, help an issue.
There is a mountain of research involving pressure measurement systems at the chamber and gas port, high speed video showing cyclic rate and feeding/extracting/ejecting behavior. It's extremely expensive so the entities that gathered the data aren't normally sharing it, because it gives them a decisive edge in reliability. The main ones that come to mind are ArmaLite's work in the late 1950s, Army Research Lab, Colt, KAC, FN, Hk, Diameco, Alexander Arms, maybe a few others.
I like all these new ideas, but I prefer the original system. I don't think I'd trust an aluminum bolt carrier, in a combat setting, or if you're running your rifles really hard. I just trust the stuff I've had experience with.
Jason’ You’re never going to be in a combat situation. Although an aluminum bcg will make your rig lighter while your larping in the desert killing all those enemy paper targets. 🤡🤣
@@TacticalBuffoonary maybe if you actually read what i wrote, instead of fishing for likes, you’d have seen i wasn’t just talking about combat situations, you dumb fuck. Shit, even the manufacturer said they don’t suggest it for duty use. So who’s the clown now? Asshole
If only we had realized earlier...we could have just built exact copies of the original Stoner rifles, and they would do everything as well or better than our current rifles... Damn!!!
That’s because every situation is different. What load are you shooting? What gas length? Carbine? Intermediate? Rifle? What weight is your buffer? Running suppressed? Sometimes or all the time? Want the ability to “tune on the fly” for suppressed? How heavy is your barrel? Is this a race gun or do you need EOTWAWKI reliability? I have different AR variants for different purposes. My race gun would never be the one I’d go to if I had to guarantee 100% reliability. Tuned gas ports and low mass carriers with the lightest weight parts available USUALLY (not always) equal reduced felt recoil at the cost of some level of reliability. This isn’t an isolated truth that applies only to an AR-style rifle. Guys serious about competition will use reduced recoil loads in their shotguns where prudent to have faster transitions and reduce recoil, etc. Here’s the answer- you have to tune your rifle for your needs. There is no perfect recipe that will work for every single application. The generalities referenced in the video are the best starting point. It’s up to each person to tune from there. Thank goodness companies like JP exist to allow shooters the option to increase the reliability of their individual weapon platform while gaining performance. Plus, as noted many times by Garand Daddy, their stuff makes your gun look cool, and if you don’t look cool, what’s the point to any of this?
@@joshuareed3999 It's still too generalized even for specific applications. For example. I have a 6.5 grendel 18" with adjustable gas. I want to reduce felt recoil. Do I reduce the weight of the BCG? If so, why? What will that do to the impulse? He doesn't say. Do I need to reduce, or increase the gas? If so, why? He doesn't say. Do I need a stronger spring for a reduced weight BCG? If I do, then the BCG might be lighter, but it's going to slam home faster... What does this do for aiming? These are all questions that aren't answered. Any sort of specific answer that might be hinted at, is still left generalized. In other words, he sounds like a politician with no definitive answers for certain popular build scenarios.
Thengine first of all- thanks for not taking an argumentative tone. Too many know-it-all idiots on here! All I can speak to is my own experience. My current “race gun” has an 18” barrel with rifle length gas system chambered for .223 Wylde and I shoot .223 Rem in it as opposed to 5.56. Less chamber pressure. I use a Superlative Arms adjustable gas block, super lightweight BCG, and the Gen 2 JP silent captured spring system- just the standard weight, not the H2 or heavier variant. I attribute the extremely light recoil of my setup to the fact that I dialed the gas system to only allow enough gas to reliably cycle my super light BCG and that’s it. I’m not a physics professor, but less moving weight to compensate for, coupled with slowing that really light BCG down as much as possible, has seriously made a big difference in my follow up shots. I know some people aren’t a fan of adjustable gas blocks- citing reliability issues- but in my application it has been awesome. I do have the JP adjustable gas block on another rifle with a 16” Wilson Combat barrel and I believe it runs the intermediate gas system. Or mid length. Anyway, it has run flawlessly. That gun is not setup as a competition style rifle, but I used the adjustable gas block to dial the gas back just a touch and it shoots really well. I’m running an H2 buffer with standard spring in that one. Each rifle is different and the ammo also plays a lot into the reliability of setups like this. I set mine up for 223 so that if I wanted to run 5.56 in them it will usually only add to reliability with the higher chamber pressures. The Superlative gas block is nice because it also has a bleed off feature if you run suppressed. Hope this answers some of your questions!
Ideally you want the lightest system that functions reliably, but determining the exact effect on a specific system is complicated because there are many interrelated variables. We need to define a few things: I think the Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) operating window is defined by the distance the BCG must travel to clear the cartridge and return with enough momentum to strip and chamber a round. It must also lock to the rear on an empty mag. We can measure Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) mass, bullet mass, buffer spring rate (force/distance compressed) and buffer mass. The effects of the rifle cycle on feel and sight recovery is governed by momentum of the moving components (Bolt, bolt carrier and buffer), impulse of the gas on the BCG/buffer, impulse of the components themselves when the rifle cycles. Momentum = mass x velocity, an increase in mass or velocity would increase the momentum, however as I mentioned everything is interdependent, if you increase the moving mass, the velocity will be reduced. Think of impulse as force over time, a greater impulse, will increase the momentum. Pushing the kid on the swing harder or softer for a longer duration can both send them to the same height. The rule of thumb is the lowest pressure that cycles the rifle reliably will result in the lowest adverse effects on sight recovery or feel. The impulse, represented by the pressure of the gas at any given time, will be affected by a change to any variable in the system. Reducing the mass of any moving component in the system will reduce the gas pressure needed to cycle the system. Without knowing the specific impulse the gas imparts on this specific setup we can’t know if the momentum will increase or decrease. We need to know the pressure over time on this specific system, but my intuition is it will result in a decrease in momentum. Reducing the spring rate of the buffer spring will reduce the gas pressure needed to cycle the system. Again, we don’t know how this changes the specific impulse of the gas pressure on this specific setup. My intuition is that as long as the spring rate is high enough to stop the moving components from slamming to a stop, the momentum would decrease. A suppressor increases the impulse of the gas on the BCG. We can counter this by decreasing the gas pressure, increasing the mass of the BCG or buffer, increasing the spring rate, or a combination to get the system back into the operating window. You want the lightest components that function reliably. There are tradeoffs and again we need to know every detail to calculate the exact effect of a change on a system. In general anything that increases the momentum of the moving components may be more reliable, but nothing is certain because all variables affect each other. You can increase momentum by increasing the gas pressure resulting in the BCG moving at a greater velocity however, there is a point where the BCG could bounce (bolt bounce) which indicates it is out of the operating window. If we increase the mass the moving components would have greater inertia which is its resistance to changing velocity, but may need more gas to keep them in the operating window.
Jeffrey Tollar you’re exactly right about there being lots of variables to account for. That is why, in my opinion, an adjustable gas block is the best way to account for the changes in each setup and to allow you to dial in the gas setup to reliably cycle YOUR setup. There are lots of little things that can affect a particular rifle as well- and that are documented very often in building AR-type weapons. One that is very common is gas port size/gas block placement over that port. If your gas block is 1-2 degrees out of perfect alignment you have greatly reduced the gas making its way back to the chamber. There are lots of little details like that that could theoretically affect each setup even if you compared two rifles with identical components. Spring rates for buffers are undoubtedly based on the length of coil and the diameter or strength of the material used, which wouldn’t seem to control their strength very well. I’ve seen “braided” setups, softer setups, etc. All of this to say that each setup can be inherently different even across a control group- like 2 rifles made of exactly the same components. There is some good news regarding pressures used (or needed) in the setup. Ammo is generally an easy way to control chamber pressures so that you have relatively consistent force applied to the recoil setup in each application. For those of us that roll our own ammo we can control the type of primer and powder used, and those can be combined to either increase or decrease chamber pressure. Once you have a specific load worked up for your application you can use your (presumptive) adjustable gas system to only allow enough gas to reliably cycle your setup. Again, I use my “common” plinking ammo setup to set my gas system and I “over-gas” it slightly to make sure, as much as possible, that I account for any discrepancies or variances that you can’t typically control- temperature, humidity, etc., which can affect chamber pressure as well. My common ammo is the cheapest, and most common stuff I shoot and I keep pressures pretty low compared to some of the hotter stuff that I would shoot if shooting for groups, or even in a defensive situation. Those hotter loads would only increase reliability since they have higher pressures so there is no need to account for them and re-work the gas system, or change any parts if your immediate need ever became a defensive one. The recoil impulse will be greater, but not to the point that the gun is jumping out of your hands and unmanageable! Most gas-operated guns have the benefit of managing recoil as a function of their design, and the AR-platform weapon systems, especially in 5.56/.223, are very manageable even without all of the things mentioned here.
I hate to do this to you: I love your products and will continue to run them. The dedication to the art of MSR your company displays is second to none! That being said the audio on this vid is just trash. The music and mic dropping in and out is totally unworthy of representing your company’s passion and expertise. Seriously, I’ll recommend your products everyfreakingday of the week, but please lose this video.
then you won't be getting the characteristics & results from your weapon that I get... don't EVER shoot another weapon like mine... one that is tuned with as much disposable money that you could throw at it feasibly... just keep shooting at the intruder in your house, the threat you've been forced to engage... with ol' Jane she's normal & plain, but will still shoot the creep with outstanding results... hopefully. But, if you take ol' Jane coyote hunting with me and need to engage a single with a follow up shot, or double, a triple... don't expect your weapon to be able to keep up and be ablevto make smooth follow-up shots without your thermal scope losing the target from the recoil from your rifle while you're shooting and for the entire system of parts to be used and function as silently as possible and as smooth, frictionless, and as absolutely quiet as possible together in your rifle, so you can get the validation you desire from being able to help your neighbor (the cattle farmer right down the road) save a baby calf from the 3 coyotes he's been seeing every other morning (as they're running away from yet another day old baby calf) all in one night because you have a tuned weapon system 😉 that is paired with a set of on the job/in the field shooting skills which are comparable to those of a real polished badass and that in turn... unknowingly pays for your JP Silent Capture Spring System in filet minón steaks for you and yours every week for a LONG time AND a reputation that follows you forever for being THAT guy... the one that's a 100% straight-up, sharp shootin', real life sniper-type of hero, that's one hell of a great shot, and generally just a badass type of man's man... the ol' git-ur-dun kinda dude reputation that just snowballs in your community and turns into making thousands or more dollars in the near future... plenty to pay for a 150 dollar JP SCS for ol' Jane to be able to run her squeeky ol' jerky bowels & forcefully rearward thrusting loins, together in conjunction both reliably AND silently... Oh boy...!!! He sure is a dead eye ain't he?!!!
@@zekethefishgeek8690 I got the Griffin Buffer and Superlative adjustable gas block. Sorry son, your attention whoring and superiority complex is showing. The Griffin Snach charging handle is also nice, especially with muzzle devices. I also prefer to keep as close to GI speck for parts availability in leaner times.
Before this video,I kinda understood what I needed for my build... After this video,I'm so confused and over whelmed...lost. Talking...and Talking...and Talking....but Not showing anything in how you make it all work...pointless and disappointing,thought that I was finally going to learn something by making my build work....UGH!....
@@JPRifles Lol...Questions?...No Title: Gas V Mass Regulations in your AR... kinda miss leading here... I clicked here thinking that we would see in some ways of demonstrations of the differences of the two and what would be beast for our build... Instead we have someone swiftly rambling on and on as if we all should know already all the terms and issues he is refering too...kind pointless...huh? My bad for misunderstanding what the video was?...Not what I was looking for and certanly dont want any questions answered by that guy...sorry
@@ellissmithjr6599 It helps to have a basic understanding of English words first. Is English a 2nd language for you by chance? I just noticed that you used "miss leading", "beast" instead of best, "too" instead of "to". Maybe autocorrect is cheating you out of what you're trying to say. Happens to me sometimes.
@@LRRPFco52 You must have Not liked my opinion and maybe missed the whole point in that it was about his style of presentation.There was very little in detail and it was vague which left many that are Not familiar with arms or more importantly in matnance and how they work on the inside...That's all it was my friend. It's ok that you disagree with my opinion or didn't have a basic understanding what the whole point was to make him realize that he needs to do better in Presentation,because I know he has a real job in doing so... Passive sarcasm leading to Consructive Criticism 👍...That was the Point. Again,you Not liking it or disagree is ok but you mentioning about my language and auto correct going stupid on me that you thought I didn't know about? You do realize that this is Utube right?...where most are posting with less than perfect English and a lot of slang and Abbrv's as well...right? My point here with you,lighten up my friend because their is a lot of worst things going on in the world my friend. BTW... I spent 12yrs in the military with 8 of those years in GROUP.I have been all over the world teaching,training and Organizing troups to learn how to fight and survive against Powerful Bad invaders and Perverted,Twisted Religious groups that only know Hate and Power. That is why I had an opinion of his style of Presentation...that all,not a crisis my friend...but I think you didn't care because that wasn't your motive here...just my opinion. But good luck to you 👍.
Suppressors aren't a "good match" with ANY gun. They're completely "working against" the gun and ammunition in every way possible and increasing the loads on it and the "shooter" everywhere but the "inner ear" and that supposed "benefit" is nothing of the kind since the "physiological effects" of shooting are purely "psychological" and a "suppressor" does nothing to change the fact that a shooter is shooting a gun and attempting to hit some sort of target with it and the suppressor does nothing to HELP hit the target and plenty to HURT hitting the target.
For those of you who are confused- use a “tunable” gas block, low mass bolt carrier group, and an adjustable buffer system like the JP for a sweet shooting, reliable platform. Being able to regulate the gas and keep a low mass carrier moving as slowly as possible to reliably cycle the action is the best option for recoil mitigation. JP makes some fantastic stuff! Thanks!
jcllings if it’s like my Hogan that has a reversible gas piston you can reverse it to mitigate recoil. One direction is for standard operation and the other is for suppressed operation. Just take the piston out of the gas block, turn it around, and reinstall. If you don’t have that option you can still use a tunable buffer system like what is shown in this video. Outside of that, or maybe a brake, you can’t do much else. Pistons are not designed to be lighter recoiling- they’re made to be more reliable than a standard DI gas system. Whether they are or not might be able to be covered in a different video.
Which doesn't work well with large frame AR's in say .260 vs a small frame AR in say 6.5 Grendel. I set up the .260 the same way I did the Grendel where I gas regulated it, that doesn't work when suppressed. Exactly as described, huge port pressure spike and the bolt getting slammed around even with the adjustable gas block turned almost completely in. So mass regulation is how you solve the problem. I prefer going lightweight bolt carrier, SCS, and an adjustable gas block, but suppressed large frames don't behave the same way I've learned.
I totally understand what he is saying but honestly I own weapons not trinkets ( no disrespect intended) and the moment you start taking away mass from ANY pert of the firing group you are immediately risking a malfunction that you can't possibly be CERTAIN of the cause right off whilst in the shit . I understand perfectly it's just not the right thing for me . Have no idea what's right for anyone else.
I don't think it's right to be telling uninformed ppl that are going to believe they have a guaranteed boom every time . i assure you change your buffer or spring value BCG. weight not material thankfully we do have 2 bcg upgrades that ACTUALLY improve the combat ready reliable AR . BCG finish and bolt material . Mil-spec needs to update . Otherwise you will have some bolt hop that may even be imperceptible to you until parts are already worn . .
It will make your gun run doing what he says I agree but it IS not can or might IS going to fail and you now have a minimum if 3 options instead of be sure about the instant diagnosis you will have with factory weight stuff . The rifle will tell you exactly what it is by its behavior .
@@jeffmartin4448 The military owns weapons, you own trinkets. Imagine larping like as if you had a weapon when you can't even select fire.
@ManiacallyYours Semi auto is almost never used in the military. If military personnel adopted your mentality, they would have never ditched the .308 for the 5.56.
This is an amazing description of why I need some mass regulation on my suppressed AR!
JP is the only good thing that has ever come out of minnesota
Is this what they mean by a well regulated militia?
absolutely
Also why the US Army switched from Beans to Rice in the mess hall. True story.
5 position gas regulator can change setup in 3 seconds, much more convenient that swapping BCG and buffers!
Thanks for some of the best rifle parts I've ever purchased, and KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT rather than some of these schmucks who talk, but have no real idea.
Thanks for all the support
The buffer will get you to the right chapter. The gas block will get you to the right page. (If you really care) But just remember that a D is passing, so you don't have to fine tune it that much. 3-430 is all you're lookin for.
Very informative Sir, thank you.
Like your part and love your videos starring JP.
However, I believe that an important point was missed when talking about regulation -- especially gas regulation. When you load single round mags and adjust the gas pressure until the bolt barely locks up you are AT THE LOWEST END OF THE ACCEPTABLE BOLT VELOCITY RANGE. Any less and the gun wouldn't cycle properly.
It should be mentioned that any one who shoots more than one kind of ammo in their rifles -- which is most people -- should do the gas port adjustment using the ammo that generates the lowest pressures and the shortest impulse. This generally means that load featuring the lightest bullet from that brand that loads that weight most mildly. Always adjust with the lightest, weakest ammo you shoot, not your favorite ammo. Fiddling with tungsten weights is not quite that sensitive, but the same concept applies.
Eg. If you shoot 110gr Vmaxes, 149gr surplus ball and 175 gr GMM in your 308. You should adjust your gas block with the 110 Vmaxes. The rifle will work with the 149 and 175. But, if you adjust with the 175, I can almost guarantee that the lighter loads will not lock the bolt carrier and possibly may not strip the next round and/or eject properly.
This makes so much sense, yet I hadn't thought of this. Thanks for your comment!
Don't forget to mention all the factors with port pressure, different powders and outside temperature for example in some circumstances.
@@newerest1 Outside temperature also does not matter all that much! Sound counter intuitive, but it's true... When temperature drops, burn rate of powders drop. While this generally reduces muzzle velocity it also means that more powder burn happens later into the bullet's time in the barrel with the pressure peak and decay shifting to the right! That, plus the slower bullet spending more time in the barrel after it clears the gas port, combine to greatly mitigate the loss in port pressure and dwell available to cycle the weapon.
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The AR, and most military rifles with the exception og the likes of the Ultimax 100, have a very short cyclic stroke. That is, there is very little bolt travel after it clears the hold open lever and when it bottoms out and smacks into the buffer. This makes tuning it just right such that it locks open but does not reach the end of its travel largely impractical. You are playing with something like a quarter of an inch here. So, any reliable rifle will tend to have some smack in exchange for cyclic reliability. You can minimize the effects of that smack by reducing the reciprocating mass -- such as using a low mass BCG or buffer weights. But, a lot of that is designed into the rifle and there is only so much you can do. The FN FAL for instance has a MUCH LOWER reciprocating mass than a 308 AR -- just look at the size of the BCG! Hence, it is inherently a more controllable rifle in burst or rapid fire.
@@dwightlooi The powder is converted within a fraction of a second and fully burned before the bullet has traveled anywhere near the port.
Extreme cold conditions absolutely do affect cyclic rate. These are some of the most difficult sets of conditions for military rifles to pass, which is why the ports are drilled the way they are.
@@LRRPFco52 I am pretty sure they do. But think about it this way... cold temperatures basically turn a faster powder into a slower powder. Two things happen when the powder burns slower. The first being that the pressure peaks become lower. But the second is that that entire pressure curve is shifted to the right. Your pressure port is located somewhere on the X axis and moving the curve to the right INCREASES the pressure when the bullet reaches the port. This in part compensates for the drop in magnitude.
John Paul is the man!
As a firearms nerd I thoroughly enjoyed the detail provided in this video!
Very well explained. No free lunch so you need to figure out what’s important to you. Light weight systems and low gas can be ammo sensitive. Heavy weight systems are forgiving but have more recoil/reciprocating mass.
Built a 762x39 11” barrel ar with a oden works adjustable buffer and adjustable gas block. After going back-and-forth adjusting the weights on the buffer and the pressure with the adjustable gas block looking for the perfect combination I ended up switching the buffer to a standard weight buffer and adjusting the pressure on the gas block till it felt And cycled right.
Also to add its a 16" barrel with a carbine length gas system.
You are the best of the best. Thank you for your Vigilance.
@JPRifles
What would you recommend for a 22" 6.5 Creedmoor AR? (JP barrel)
FMOS carrier and SCS heavy?
Thanks!
Old video, but good information. My next 300blk build is going to have a high mass BCG and Buffer, accompanied by a 10 position adjustable gas system. Shooting suppressed with 220gr subs I plan to start with the highest mass and lowest gas and work my way to that sweet spot.
Now, how does buffer spring strength enter into all of this?
Spring rate is constant. Spring force generated will depend on the amount of spring deflection from the free state of the spring. F=MxA (Force equals Mass multiplied by acceleration). On the rebound of the BCG, the only force created will depend on the spring rate and how much compression (deflection) there is in that spring which will depend on how far back the BCG (with the now empty shell casing) moves from the forces created by the gas system. The mass involved is pretty self explanatory (anything moving). The BCG and buffer are the two main mass items moving forward (plus part of the spring and the new cartridge being chambered from the magazine). There is friction involved in the movement, of course. You have a couple items to mess with for forward movement of the BCG (total mass of moving items and spring rate). Rearward movement of the BCG will depend on the output of the gas system (pressure and duration), masses that are already mentioned, and buffer spring force to overcome (plus any friction).
Don't know if I am just dense and completely missing the point, but after your explanation, it all makes perfect sense...as I said, either I am missing the entire point or you actuaLly explained this conundrum clearly and concisely...well done sir, and thank you for shedding light on what, to many (including myself) often appears as murky as voodoo...
Well done sir
How can a 'typical shooter' determine if their individual rifle is operating in the 'sweet-spot' of bolt velocity as you recommend? I understand, and agree, that there are two ways to regulate bolt velocity with either variable port pressure or variable reciprocating mass of the BCG/Buffer combination. I also understand how the presence or absence of a suppressor and/or variable barrel configurations (ie. carbine vs. mid-length vs. rifle length) affect port/gas system pressure which is the driving force of bolt movement. Presumably, when the system short-cycles, the velocity is too low, but it is not clear how to diagnose when bolt velocity is too high or when you are in the 'sweet spot'. I'm uncertain that simple observation of ejection of expended cases at 2 o'clock vs. 4o'clock is sufficiently accurate, especially considering that some receivers to not have shell deflectors which may perturb that action.
Please help!
So to be clear would you always recommend a heavier buffer or heavier BCG over an adj gas block or just the two in conjunction? I've had good results with the adj gas block but I don't like having another component to fool with.
I like to think of the mass and the gas like a coarse adjustment and a fine adjustment respectively. Changing your mass moves the theoretical "needle" in greater chunks, like hitting your tab key on your keyboard, whereas your gas block should let you more finely move the needle, like hitting the spacebar on your keyboard. Not a perfect metaphor but maybe more readily grasped than comparing it to the coarse and fine adjustment on a microscope. For a competition rifle, a lower mass might (depending on your gas port, barrel length, gas system, spring weight, environmental factors, etc) let you use a lower gas block setting and achieve lower recoil, faster follow-ups, all the things competition shooters like.
What's the weight of the 308 vmos with the 3 tungsten weights
I have the Ultra Low Mass BCG and the new Silent Captured Spring buffer system with the different springs set which I have yet to install. I'd like to know what's the best way to tune this for low recoil impulse and competition applications.
Do we want to use the heaviest SCS spring that doesn't bounce the BCG and bolt back in battery or lightest spring? Do we dial in the desired spring before tuning the gas to lock back on an empty magazine?
JPRifles Too light can also have a slow recovery.
You really need to "feel" the different impulses.
I used to do the lightest spring, too. It was definitely softest on the shoulder.
However, it had a "Cha-Chunk" feel.
Going to a slightly faster spring, it became more "Cha-Cha-Cha" and it was easier to keep a shooting cadence.
I'm running a Daniel Defense MK-18 MOD 1 with a Gemtech Suppressed Bolt Carrier system, and a Radian Weapons Raptor SD fluted charging handle, obviously with those 2 mods pushing the excess suppressor gasses out the ejection port, I need a good balanced buffer that will not only help facilitate the operation on the bolt, but quiet the mechanical operation of the weapon down as well. What tension spring, and how many of the Tungsten weights would you recommend for your JP Silent Captured Spring Gen 2 Buffer System.
Depends on ammo. High pressure 77gr SMK will be different than low pressure Wolf 55gr.
Run the standard h2 I have a very similar set up it runs great suppressed with the h2 silent capture system I also have a adjustable bcg and geissele charging handle and I capped off my forward assist also to help with blowback
Man, if I could have the pleasure of owning a DD then I wouldn't touch a thing on her. I honestly wish I never shot one. I've purchased 2 AR's and built 2, favorite of the bunch is my sons of Liberty Gun Works 16"....but anyways a buddy of mine got a DD and let me run a course with the rifle, "he's a real sweetheart". But the second I fired the rifle for the first time it just felt perfect. Everything from the sound, the feel, the awesome cheek weld I was able to achieve with his 1-6x LPVO. Everything just felt easier to do and I shot the best I ever had up until that time at the course. They make amazing rifles.
You guys do any direct sales? I mean I have to come down anyways to get some Dillion stuff from Wolf's Den so I'll be in Hugo anyways.
I have a PWS AR10 piston gun in 7.62 rifle with a 14.5 inch barrel. What JP- SCS buffer configuration do you recommend I use? Thank you for any suggestions!
If im reading it correctly your chart says to use a JCSCS2-10H2 for my AR10 piston gun with adjustable gas block, but the section before that says not to use your system with a adjustable gas block piston gun in standard or heavy configuration?
What’s the best setup for cheap 55gr 223/556?
A very elegant approach indeed. Out of curiosity, have you ever experimented slowing down bolt speed by regulating the gas flow rate through the restriction of the flow via a smaller ID in the gas tube instead of restricting/venting the gas at the gas block?
There was a company that did that. You could adjust the choke through a vent hole on carbine handguards from the top.
Haven't seen them in a long time though. Railed handguards and float tubes made that interface untenable.
There are also flow regulators in bolt carriers, which I've been using lately. Bootleg and 2A Armament have those.
Gemtech used to make one too.
There are also 2 different carrier keys with adjustable gas on the back end of them, using large set screws that choke the flow path from the key into the carrier.
How would you setup a 9" 300 blackout barrel with an 7.2" welded suppressor? Gas or Mass?
Do you have to use the buffer detent on the this new style of buffer?
I was just about to ask y'all what should i do in regard to the VMOS carrier the regular or heavy version, for a 16" 308? Would i abandon the idea of an adjustable gas block all together? Thanks for uploading this video.
Will do. I'm going to stick with the original plan for the VMOS and adjustable gas block. Might give y'all a shout as to which VMOS to get paired with which SCS. Thanks for the response.
How does the VMOS with the lowest mass configuration compare to the Aluminum or the Steel LMOS for a small-frame AR? What about on the heavy end? What are the disadvantages of the VMOS on a regular 556 AR (16'', DI, unsuppressed)? Thanks
Thank you!
JP i'm new to the AR family building my first a AR308 with a 18" barrel what system do you reccommend for this rifle.
I plan too use it for some comp. shooting and for a hog hunt
thanks
Dennis Dikowski
Give the JPSCS2-10 with the JPBC-4 a try. If you are looking for a complete carrier group ( bolt, cam pin, firing pin, etc) look at the JPBC-4 BCG
Or you could do both. Spend a day out on the range and figure out exactly what combination is going to work for you.
The key is to have the correct amount of gas and mass regulation for they type of use the firearm is intended to see. There are totally different requirements for a competition 3-gun race rifle compared to a duty/defense style rifle that will be run suppressed at least part of the time.
@@JPRifles duty / self defense rifle need more gass than 3 guns right? Because reliability is more important than recoil impulse in duty gun.
This has always confused me. What we are experiencing as recoil is a product of force. So you can adjust force with mass or velocity. Why do I need to regulate both?
I have 308 ar10 how do no if need the one that’s all Stainless or other one vmos and want run Suppressed sometimes but not all time?
Interesting concept. I'm not completely sold on the approach presented, specifically, but I think you're headed in the right direction.
JP has been at this for 20 years now. They literally set the standard for competition AR-15s in action shooting, and every company in that space copies JP.
What other companies manufacture a similar product?
@@andygrew4832 Who hasn't copied JP? JP pioneered:
* Adjustable gas blocks for the AR-15
* AR muzzle brakes
* Lightwwight Free float tubes
* Adjustable competition triggers
* Billet AR receivers
* Lightweight Bolt Carriers
* Tunable action springs and buffer systems
* AR-15 barrel radiators
He completely changed the market for high-end performance AR-15s and AR-10s.
I dont have enough money or time to try and find the perfect BCG and buffer setup. My rifle is shooting overgassed at the 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock position any suggestions on which setup would be good? I also changed my carbine buffer with an H2 and i saw no difference in where my cartridges were landing.
An adjustable gas block will give you the ability to tune the rifle easily.
If you don't want to change out the gas block, you could try taking the buffer weight from H2 (~4.6oz) to H3 (~5.4oz). On the JPSCS2-15H2 (two 2nd generation tungsten masses and one 2nd generation stainless steel mass) Silent Captured Spring system, you would simply remove the one remaining 2nd generation stainless steel buffer mass and replace it with a 2nd generation tungsten mass. If you are running a traditional/mil-spec style buffer and spring system, you may need to purchase a completely different buffer to achieve the H3 mass.
Javier Acosta keep going up on the buffer weight. If that doesn’t resolve it go to a stiffer buffer spring
Honestly, people get far too worked up about where their brass is going. I used to be the same way and became fixated on it but had a buddy let me use his adjustable buffer tube and I bought a sprinco white and red buffer spring. Now, literally with ALL my rifles I get a sprinco red buffer spring and an adjustable buffer weight. Then the next step is to take your two choice rounds, "I go by the round I practice with and the round I use for defensive measures". Now, take both of said rounds and put 1 in one magazine, one in the other. Your only goal from this point is to make sure after firing that single round that your bolt will go to the locking position on an empty mag. You do this all the way up to the heaviest you can go with the buffer until your bolt will no longer reliably lock back after shooting the 1 round mag. All systems are very different. I have 3 different 16" AR's that are practically built the same per milspec that are just using different brand part even though almost all parts are practically identical. Each of the 3 rifles have drastically different buffer weights in them. 1 of them I couldn't get to lock back past just 3.7oz while one of the others I'm able to reliably run my buffer weight at 5.15oz. All 3 shoot and feel practically identical as far as perceived recoil and sight realignment and all 3 like to spit brass right around the 3 o'clock position but honestly they could be spitting anywhere from 1-5 o'clock and I honestly could care less. As long as the rifle is reliable and feels good then it truly doesn't matter until you start mucking around with suppressors.
So why does it different to remove mass from BCG compare to buffer, if they are going to move in unity? For example, why should I get the Aluminum BCG compare to just remove a weight from the SCBS(assuming the overall weight of the moving mass is same) ?
They do work in tandem, like you say. It depends on how much you want to change the weight. The difference between our low mass steel carrier and the aluminum carriers is almost 3 oz. Assuming you're going from a tungsten mass to a steel in your SCS, that's saving you about 1/4 oz.
@@JPRifles thank you so much for reply. I have been so confused on this topic. I am wondering in this case why would we have weight on buffer at all? It seems like we could just have a no weight on the SCBS right ?
COMPLETELY AGREE ON LESS MASS. Regulate the gas instead. MANY reasons.
This just confused the heck out of me. So, if I adjust the gas I should go with a lighter bcg and if I over-gas I should go with a heavier bcg?
Correct. A heavier buffer slows down the higher pressure gas, which results in less kick and more controlled brass ejection. Pistols need the heaviest buffers because the pressure is so much higher, versus a rifle length gas system. But an adjustable gas block controls the amount of gas, allowing a person to run the standard buffer on any gas system.
Yeah, the slower the bolt unlocks the further the bullet gets down the barrel and the lower the pressures are when the bokt begins to open.
The legend himself
I have an lmt enhanced bolt with an extra gas ventilation hole. Which jp should I get?
Please refer to out Silent Captured Spring Selection Guide: jprifles.com/document_pdfs/SCS%20Selection%20Guide_794.pdf
Is a VMOS bolt carrier with both tungsten heavier then a standard FA bolt carrier?
Yes, it is.
so what do you suggest for a 10.5 inch 5.56 AR that is extremely over gassed? should i keep the carbine buffer weight and use an adjustable gas block or should i change the weight of the buffer? and i am not running this gun suppressed...
Heavier buffer and stronger spring, Purchase JP Enterprises Tuned and Polished Buffer Spring AR 15, $20.00 MidwayUSA. Buy a food scale to weigh your buffers ($15.00). Buy the combination buffer weight kits and mix and match until you love it. (If your a PSA guy like me) the PSA gas port is a little large, buffers are light (under 3oz) and buffer springs are weak. Gun built for occasional shooter. Love PSA but these are just the facts ma’m. My son purchased a 7.5 from PSA buffer weighted 2.8oz weak worthless spring, bolt slammed so hard wouldn’t eject a single cartridge. He purchased an H3 buffer 5.4 oz and the JP spring and oh ya it’s a shooter. One mans opinion (from experience).
Holy hell you're using a carbine buffer weight in a 10.5? If you changed the buffer weight alone you would have a completely different feeling rifle and if you pair it with sprinco red then you'll be in heaven.
When running suppressed what is wrong with keeping lightweight mass and turning the gas down?
As long as it's dialed in correctly you will be fine. There are added benefits to going heavier and slowing down the operating system
I would consider a short-stroke gas piston with an adjustable gas block if I were to run a suppressed system most if not all the time.
So how does a mere mortal know what the bolt velocity "sweet spot" is?
Then how do you know whether your bolt/buffer system is too light or too heavy?
What are the symptoms of each?
Sweet Spot being defined as successfully/reliably cycling the gun with the least amount of energy possible?
I use ejection pattern as a gauge, if the brass is wacking the case deflector and lauching to the moon youre over gassed, if your rifle wont lock open properly or has a weak ejection around 5 to 4 o clock youre too slow.
I completely understand searching for the optimal bolt sweet spot and recoil impulse. However, it seems like your talking about balancing over gassing, BCG travel time, and recoil impulse with a silent capture/lightweight BCG and weights.
What’s the point of producing a lightweight BCG, just to add more weight on it? I love my light weight 3 gun labs BCG. If I wanted a heavier BCG I’d swap it for a M16 profile.
Adjustable gas blocks and the choice of buffer weight seems like a much more affordable, faster and time proven method. Never mind the the type of ammo your shooting. Whether it be subsonic, super, or hand load.
I’m sorry. I just don’t get it. Are you discussing a common problem. Or are you discussing a problem with the products you produce?
So you can tune.
snek tune what?
@@Warthog71 Reciprocating mass, lighter isn't always better.
There are times when less reciprocating mass is a benefit and there are time when more reciprocating mass is a benefit. Two specific scenarios would be a rifle that you would like to run suppressed vs an all out 3-gun race rifle. You want more mass in the suppressed rifle to help keep the bolt closed a little longer so the excess pressure can drop. Whereas the goal on the 3-gun rifle is reduce reciprocating mass to minimize felt recoil. I would also still have one of our adjustable gas blocks installed on both examples.
You guys going to get a BCG for the 300 aac?
The BCG is no different.
So a a heavier bcg and buffer are more reliable than a lighter bcg and buffer
Jacob Dohogne a heavier bcg and buffer is will give you greater momentum to strip off and chamber the next round, assuming the same spring rate. In competition I'd make the trade off of a steadier sight picture over 100% reliability. In a duty/HD rifle I'd stick with a full m-16 profile BCG and an H or H2 buffer with a regular carbine spring. Also realize a heavier spring rate will decrease the time your magazine has to feed the next round. So standard rate spring with an H or H2 for utmost reliability.
Oh really? Doesn't a heavier buffer and BCG take more energy to move rearward leaving less "rebound" energy coming forward? Of course it does. And there's so no such thing as the "same spring rate" since the LOAD ON A SPRING is a "factor" in its "rate". Identical springs produce different "spring rates" as the loads they're subjected to change. If all you "sight-obsessed" shooters were better shots and hit the freaking target in the "bullseye" with the first shot you wouldn't have to be obsessed with having your sights "stay on target" for "subsequent" shots.
I consulted a former DOD weponds developer who has 30 years experience. We talked about all these products, and piston systems.
He doesn't think too highly of a lot of these products. Especially anything low mass. Reliability becomes an issue. So does breakage. Be careful what gimmicks you throw money at. Be prepared to spend extra money on additional parts to tune. And time.
Additionally, you won't get answers from these companies about comparability with all these cool parts. They will tell you to give them all your money. Buyer beware.
@@deeremeyer1749 I have to disagree. If you don't change out a spring, its spring rate will not change. Different loads will behave differently on a given spring but the spring rate has not changed. Only the load has changed.
@@deeremeyer1749 Spring rate is constant. Spring force generated will depend on the amount of spring deflection from the free state of the spring. F=MxA (Force equals Mass multiplied by acceleration). On the rebound of the BCG, the only force created will depend on the spring rate and how much compression (deflection) there is in that spring which will depend on how far back the BCG (with the now empty shell casing) moves from the forces created by the gas system. The mass involved is pretty self explanatory (anything moving). The BCG and buffer are the two main mass items moving forward (plus part of the spring and the new cartridge being chambered from the magazine). There is friction involved in the movement, of course. You have a couple items to mess with for forward movement of the BCG (total mass of moving items and spring rate). Rearward movement of the BCG will depend on the output of the gas system (pressure and duration), masses that are already mentioned, and buffer spring force to overcome (plus any friction).
Already ordered the adjustable JP Gas Block. Next to help my custom 300 blackout to cycle in the sweet spot I want to go with the adjustable bolt carrier and JP Silent Capture. My system is the pistol length 10.5 inch barrel. Can you post the links to the 2 parts you would highly recommend for me to complete my build? Thank you JP!
You're the best JP thank you!!!
I sure will!
What about adjustable gas BCGs?
We prefer to do the gas adjustments at the gas block. If the gas restriction is at the gas key or in the carrier, all of the excess gas coming out of the gas tube is going into your receiver and action.
Hes the kalashnikov of modern ar15s
What about gas piston rifles ?
Dadwithallthecool it becomes irrelevant. They don’t use a buffer.
matt kehn ehhhhhh..... Yeah they do. And good ones have a “tunable” gas piston. I have one that can be removed and reversed for suppressed operation to help mitigate recoil. Recoil is definitely more of a concern with piston rifles. Mine is all Nickel Boron everything so it cleans with literally a wipe of a paper towel, so there are definitely benefits. The buffer might be one of the only tunable parts on a piston AR!
I can figure why they don't have a ghost image of there website in the corner.
wow no hyper links to there products.
dude!
First time I shot at AR, it was the original version. I fired it in basic training, and the last time I fired it was to re-qualify. I shot expert Marksman with the temperature of 8 Below Zero on a 20 knot wind in my face. I even fired the right and left post rest in full auto. It was getting cold. At no time did I ever feel like this five and a half pound 22 recoil enough to need any kind of recoil mitigation. The most irritating thing about it was the way the recoil spring would ring in your ear as you're firing the next shot. Recoil was so negligible as to be almost non-existent.
I do understand trying to mitigate gas pressures in this firearm that has shown a propensity to dump primers into the trigger works and jam itself. I don't know if the suppressor exacerbates that problem or not, however it certainly can't help. Perhaps it's because I was originally trained on the M14 when I was doing army training before I went in the Air Force. But I never found this pipsqueak gun to have enough recoil to worry about.
I agree that the .223/5.56mm cartridge does not recoil much compared to a larger intermediate one like the 7.62 Nato. That is about where the accuracy of your statement ends. I haven't heard of any US Military branch that actually qualifies under full auto with the M16, nor have I heard of an issued M16 to be 5 pounds. If you're using any standard length (20" barrel) M16 or variant then the weight is about 7.5lb. Plus if you think this is such a wasted effort to tune your rifle to the best it is able to be then why even comment on a system that helps do just that? The less wasted gas you use to operate the action then the more potential velocity to the bullet with the added benefit of comfort and faster reacquisition of the target. Don't forget that the jamming issue you're speaking to is also fixed by... wait for it... tuning your rifle to the application you use it for.
@@jackshett apparently you seem to have misunderstood my comment. You don't engage in war by giving somebody a half design rifle like McNamara did. Secondly the original M16 weighed 5.5 pounds. I know there was about 9 variants that were built with titanium barrels that weighed 4 1/2 pounds. That was the whole point of the design of the rifle to be a lightweight defensive weapon. Not an assault weapon. And the last time that I qualified as expert Marksman with that same rifle which was blisteringly accurate by the way, it was January and Idaho and I had a 20. Wind in my face and the wind chill was a below zero. I did the post rest position, right-hand and left-hand, in full auto. I still shot a 3 inch group at a hundred yards. It was freaking cold and I didn't want to be out there any longer and I had to be. The problem with the weapon is when you're standing in front of a field of elephant grass you can't shoot through it.
The seven six two dozen recoil a little bit more than a556 it we coils a hell of a lot more than a five five six. It is, although technically an intermediate cartridge. It's ballistics are functionally identical to the 30.06. The only thing that qualifies ar-223 is an intermediate cartridge is the fact that the neck is shorter than the 223 Remington Magnum. The ballistics are identical. As it's the exact same case with a shorter neck.
I don't care how much you tune the goddamn M16. The 55 grain Full Metal Jacket is great for producing wounds as long as you don't have to shoot through any kind of barrier to get to the flesh. The other round will go through barriers and even some armor, but won't produce enough wounding capacity to put someone down. That has been untenable ever since they designed the damn rifle. But Gene Stoner knew that that's why he thought that using it as your main rifle was a Fool's errand. McNamara murdered a high number of soldiers forcing them to carry an incomplete design into battle. Are there uses for the cartridge, yes. My personal close-quarters battle carbine is a Mini-14 the folds into a very compact package. But I do understand the limitations of the cartridge, but in clothes quarters fighting, as long as you're not trying to shoot through even moderate barriers. It is an excellent round. We are now sixty years from the Inception of the M16 / AR-15. Is it a good weapon system, yes. But it also weighs 8 1/2 pounds. The issued M14 weighs 9 1/2 lb. Most soldiers who picked up an M14, 96% could shoot a 2 inch group at a hundred yards with iron sights. That's not bad accuracy for Marksman grade shooters. Because of its lightweight and its influence by breathing, the original M16 wasn't usually shot that well. Even though it generally shot better than the M14. As far as its design indicates.
The direct impingement system has a fatal flaw. It produces gas to a point that is immediately adjacent to the trigger mechanism importing at least part of the problem that the firearm requires it to be devoid of contamination to function cleanly.
And you're argument that bleeding off gas only reduces the velocity of the projectile is devoid of understanding of gas operated systems. What do you think the gas Port is at the end of the barrel. You can't bleed enough gas from that part of the barrel and change the velocity by enough to measure. The reason I went to the Piston Drive AR version made by Ruger, is precisely that before Ruger puts, especially a semi-automatic firearm, out on the market they actually fired 25,000 rounds without cleaning before they release the firearm for production.
Does it add a level of complexity, yes. But the advantages is that I can use ammo that those who have a direct impingement cannot. So it makes the weapon more usable in emergency situations where your source of ammunition may not be pure.
If ultimate accuracy was all you were after. You get a bolt action rifle. I want owned a Ruger Model 77 in 7 mil mag with a load that I was given buy a benchrest shooter that I loaded up and the first 20 round group I fired out of that firearm measure, Center to Center spread of 049 in. it was the epitome of the long range capability throughout the 1980s. but at the bench it would beat the living hell out of you oh, but it was blisteringly accurate. Although an Antiquated design by today's standards. It makes a wonderful sniper platform. Almost everything has its use. But you must be careful to not put so much lipstick on it that you lose track of what it truly is. In the hands of Masters, Almost any weapon system can be superlative. The problem is is you need a superlative weapon system for the normal grunt to have a leg up. that is my only hope that they finally come to their senses and introduce a cartridge and system that they had the opportunity to before they killed thousands of men in Vietnam because some pencil Pusher in Washington demanded it.
@@44hawk28 This is why I don't typically reply to youtube comments. It becomes an argument with the internet tough-guy who thinks he knows everything, walked uphill in the snow both ways to school every day and otherwise simply lying out his a--. Fact checking you any further is a complete waste of time.
@@jackshett that's funny I don't care who you are. If you're depending on fact-check, I suggest you start doing a little bit more research. Let me give you a history lesson on fact check. The first time I ever employed it, I had pulled up the speech that Obama gave in Mombasa Kenya and a 6 minutes into the speech he stated that he was the first American president to be from Kenya. I pause the video, went to fact check and asked if in that speech Obama had admitted to being from Kenya. In fact check said no he never said any such thing. I went back to the video, washed where he said exactly that thing, and then went back-to-back check and it still stated that he had never said it. I've been studying ballistics since I was about 12 years old oh, I've been teaching firearm use since I was 14. My gunsmith has been shooting competition in thirty-ought-six since he was 13 or 14. And he is 12 years older than I am. I will take direct knowledge every single time. I do understand your misgivings of UA-cam, it is however just a comment section. But every once in awhile you get into a good conversation. I've run into some good ones and into some bad ones. The other person that I am discussing things with on this same thread, at least seems to have some knowledge. And isn't speaking in more generalized terms. He speaks about specific weaponry and platforms, and I only opine on the ones that I know , and have had experience with. And I'll bet money that you have no idea of why and what changes they made on firearms that increased their range so well in the last 8 years or so. Ruger actually produced a rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor that was shooting competent groups out to 1500 yards till everybody who had sighted there scopes at a hundred yards, instead of the 275 or 300 like you're supposed to if you intend on doing long range shooting, ran out of scope.
You can disregard experience all you want. But first-hand experience by those who understand the Sciences involved can be a learning experience.
44 Hawk wrong. I read about 2 words you wrote after saying there’s no point to recoil reduction in such a lightly recoiling rifle and decided to reply. There are instances when recoil mitigation is everything. Like competition shooting- which JP is super involved with. There’s a reason shooters like Jerry Miculek modifies his guns. TO BE FASTER! That’s everything to shooters like him- and plenty of others. I doubt you’ll find anyone that will argue with you that the standard recoil of a standard AR-style rifle shooting standard 5.56 is a “heavy hitter” in terms of recoil. That’s the beauty of the platform- a lot of people can (clearly) shoot it really well- even off-hand in adverse conditions. I have a super tricked out AR that runs great in matches, but wouldn’t be my first choice of rifle if my life depended on it’s performance. People like different things, and build those things for different purposes. You don’t see very many stock Toyota Camry’s winning NASCAR races right? But that damn thing will sure as hell get your ass to work.
the only way to measure the gas pressure is by the bolt locking back on the last shot correctly and the spent cartridge ejection angle such as 1 oclock to 4 oclock position parallel to the gun position, with 1 oclock position being over gassed and 4 oclock position being the correct position.
You can get false readings using the clock pattern just from extractor geometry, ejector channel debris or spring binding, tight chamber dimensions, and spent brass deflector geometry.
You can regulate the ejection pattern with ejector spring length too. Not all ejector springs are within TDP specs as it is.
You talk about it but never say what it is! So what IS the ideal bolt velocity in an AR?
Beach&BoardFan generally it's just enough gas to reliably eject brass between 2 and 4 o clock
Hey! dumb answer award 🏆 congrats Daniel!!!
Ok the next person to answer this better have and actual velocity value not a bunch of anecdotal common knowledge.
So anywhere from "1 hour forward" and "1 hour rearward" of "sideways"? That's a pretty wide range of "ideal", isn't it? And how in the hell do you get an AR to eject empties FORWARD unless they're VIOLENTLY bouncing off the "brass deflector"? Do you know what the hell you're talking about?
@@snek9353 He was asking what ideal bolt velocity was in terms of design specification. Informing him on how you adjust your setup doesn't answer the question. Just because you don't know and you presume bolt velocity isn't measurable doesn't mean the question can't be answered with a specific figure. Someone knows, surely stoner and all who worked on the prototype know the numbers.
Man how I wish there was enough research out there to do some math to achieve what you need.
4739 0173
Yeah, give me a math equation!
Theunofficialresults. Right now it’s a guess and check game. Some get lucky some not so much. I don’t want to buy the whole lot to find the one that I need!
A guy should be able to calculate off of components. Buffer weight, length of gas tube, bullet weight and velocity too many cartridges to even begin (some of use reload), suppressed, not suppressed. And so on.
4739 0173
I just bought the Armaspec captured buffer to try in my 12.5. I got it cheap so I figured wtf.
I have an adjustable gas block on it and a lightweight bcg.
Haven't been out with it yet, but if it is worse than just the flat spring and H1, I can always switch it back.
I'm like you, not endlessly funded to keep replacing parts that don't fix or at minimum, help an issue.
There is a mountain of research involving pressure measurement systems at the chamber and gas port, high speed video showing cyclic rate and feeding/extracting/ejecting behavior.
It's extremely expensive so the entities that gathered the data aren't normally sharing it, because it gives them a decisive edge in reliability.
The main ones that come to mind are ArmaLite's work in the late 1950s, Army Research Lab, Colt, KAC, FN, Hk, Diameco, Alexander Arms, maybe a few others.
I like all these new ideas, but I prefer the original system. I don't think I'd trust an aluminum bolt carrier, in a combat setting, or if you're running your rifles really hard. I just trust the stuff I've had experience with.
We don't recommend out aluminum carriers for any kind of duty/defense use either. They're strictly a race-gun component for competition.
Jason’ You’re never going to be in a combat situation. Although an aluminum bcg will make your rig lighter while your larping in the desert killing all those enemy paper targets. 🤡🤣
@@TacticalBuffoonary maybe if you actually read what i wrote, instead of fishing for likes, you’d have seen i wasn’t just talking about combat situations, you dumb fuck. Shit, even the manufacturer said they don’t suggest it for duty use. So who’s the clown now? Asshole
I guess this is for the hobbyist. Eugene Stoner had it right the first time.
If only we had realized earlier...we could have just built exact copies of the original Stoner rifles, and they would do everything as well or better than our current rifles... Damn!!!
Get rid of back round noise !!!
Lots of generalized statements without being clear on anything.
That’s because every situation is different. What load are you shooting? What gas length? Carbine? Intermediate? Rifle? What weight is your buffer? Running suppressed? Sometimes or all the time? Want the ability to “tune on the fly” for suppressed? How heavy is your barrel? Is this a race gun or do you need EOTWAWKI reliability? I have different AR variants for different purposes. My race gun would never be the one I’d go to if I had to guarantee 100% reliability. Tuned gas ports and low mass carriers with the lightest weight parts available USUALLY (not always) equal reduced felt recoil at the cost of some level of reliability. This isn’t an isolated truth that applies only to an AR-style rifle. Guys serious about competition will use reduced recoil loads in their shotguns where prudent to have faster transitions and reduce recoil, etc.
Here’s the answer- you have to tune your rifle for your needs. There is no perfect recipe that will work for every single application. The generalities referenced in the video are the best starting point. It’s up to each person to tune from there. Thank goodness companies like JP exist to allow shooters the option to increase the reliability of their individual weapon platform while gaining performance. Plus, as noted many times by Garand Daddy, their stuff makes your gun look cool, and if you don’t look cool, what’s the point to any of this?
@@joshuareed3999 It's still too generalized even for specific applications. For example. I have a 6.5 grendel 18" with adjustable gas. I want to reduce felt recoil. Do I reduce the weight of the BCG? If so, why? What will that do to the impulse? He doesn't say. Do I need to reduce, or increase the gas? If so, why? He doesn't say. Do I need a stronger spring for a reduced weight BCG? If I do, then the BCG might be lighter, but it's going to slam home faster... What does this do for aiming?
These are all questions that aren't answered. Any sort of specific answer that might be hinted at, is still left generalized. In other words, he sounds like a politician with no definitive answers for certain popular build scenarios.
Thengine first of all- thanks for not taking an argumentative tone. Too many know-it-all idiots on here! All I can speak to is my own experience. My current “race gun” has an 18” barrel with rifle length gas system chambered for .223 Wylde and I shoot .223 Rem in it as opposed to 5.56. Less chamber pressure. I use a Superlative Arms adjustable gas block, super lightweight BCG, and the Gen 2 JP silent captured spring system- just the standard weight, not the H2 or heavier variant. I attribute the extremely light recoil of my setup to the fact that I dialed the gas system to only allow enough gas to reliably cycle my super light BCG and that’s it. I’m not a physics professor, but less moving weight to compensate for, coupled with slowing that really light BCG down as much as possible, has seriously made a big difference in my follow up shots. I know some people aren’t a fan of adjustable gas blocks- citing reliability issues- but in my application it has been awesome.
I do have the JP adjustable gas block on another rifle with a 16” Wilson Combat barrel and I believe it runs the intermediate gas system. Or mid length. Anyway, it has run flawlessly. That gun is not setup as a competition style rifle, but I used the adjustable gas block to dial the gas back just a touch and it shoots really well. I’m running an H2 buffer with standard spring in that one. Each rifle is different and the ammo also plays a lot into the reliability of setups like this. I set mine up for 223 so that if I wanted to run 5.56 in them it will usually only add to reliability with the higher chamber pressures. The Superlative gas block is nice because it also has a bleed off feature if you run suppressed. Hope this answers some of your questions!
Ideally you want the lightest system that functions reliably, but determining the exact effect on a specific system is complicated because there are many interrelated variables. We need to define a few things:
I think the Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) operating window is defined by the distance the BCG must travel to clear the cartridge and return with enough momentum to strip and chamber a round. It must also lock to the rear on an empty mag.
We can measure Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) mass, bullet mass, buffer spring rate (force/distance compressed) and buffer mass.
The effects of the rifle cycle on feel and sight recovery is governed by momentum of the moving components (Bolt, bolt carrier and buffer), impulse of the gas on the BCG/buffer, impulse of the components themselves when the rifle cycles. Momentum = mass x velocity, an increase in mass or velocity would increase the momentum, however as I mentioned everything is interdependent, if you increase the moving mass, the velocity will be reduced. Think of impulse as force over time, a greater impulse, will increase the momentum. Pushing the kid on the swing harder or softer for a longer duration can both send them to the same height.
The rule of thumb is the lowest pressure that cycles the rifle reliably will result in the lowest adverse effects on sight recovery or feel. The impulse, represented by the pressure of the gas at any given time, will be affected by a change to any variable in the system.
Reducing the mass of any moving component in the system will reduce the gas pressure needed to cycle the system. Without knowing the specific impulse the gas imparts on this specific setup we can’t know if the momentum will increase or decrease. We need to know the pressure over time on this specific system, but my intuition is it will result in a decrease in momentum.
Reducing the spring rate of the buffer spring will reduce the gas pressure needed to cycle the system. Again, we don’t know how this changes the specific impulse of the gas pressure on this specific setup. My intuition is that as long as the spring rate is high enough to stop the moving components from slamming to a stop, the momentum would decrease.
A suppressor increases the impulse of the gas on the BCG. We can counter this by decreasing the gas pressure, increasing the mass of the BCG or buffer, increasing the spring rate, or a combination to get the system back into the operating window. You want the lightest components that function reliably.
There are tradeoffs and again we need to know every detail to calculate the exact effect of a change on a system. In general anything that increases the momentum of the moving components may be more reliable, but nothing is certain because all variables affect each other. You can increase momentum by increasing the gas pressure resulting in the BCG moving at a greater velocity however, there is a point where the BCG could bounce (bolt bounce) which indicates it is out of the operating window. If we increase the mass the moving components would have greater inertia which is its resistance to changing velocity, but may need more gas to keep them in the operating window.
Jeffrey Tollar you’re exactly right about there being lots of variables to account for. That is why, in my opinion, an adjustable gas block is the best way to account for the changes in each setup and to allow you to dial in the gas setup to reliably cycle YOUR setup. There are lots of little things that can affect a particular rifle as well- and that are documented very often in building AR-type weapons. One that is very common is gas port size/gas block placement over that port. If your gas block is 1-2 degrees out of perfect alignment you have greatly reduced the gas making its way back to the chamber. There are lots of little details like that that could theoretically affect each setup even if you compared two rifles with identical components. Spring rates for buffers are undoubtedly based on the length of coil and the diameter or strength of the material used, which wouldn’t seem to control their strength very well. I’ve seen “braided” setups, softer setups, etc. All of this to say that each setup can be inherently different even across a control group- like 2 rifles made of exactly the same components.
There is some good news regarding pressures used (or needed) in the setup. Ammo is generally an easy way to control chamber pressures so that you have relatively consistent force applied to the recoil setup in each application. For those of us that roll our own ammo we can control the type of primer and powder used, and those can be combined to either increase or decrease chamber pressure. Once you have a specific load worked up for your application you can use your (presumptive) adjustable gas system to only allow enough gas to reliably cycle your setup. Again, I use my “common” plinking ammo setup to set my gas system and I “over-gas” it slightly to make sure, as much as possible, that I account for any discrepancies or variances that you can’t typically control- temperature, humidity, etc., which can affect chamber pressure as well. My common ammo is the cheapest, and most common stuff I shoot and I keep pressures pretty low compared to some of the hotter stuff that I would shoot if shooting for groups, or even in a defensive situation. Those hotter loads would only increase reliability since they have higher pressures so there is no need to account for them and re-work the gas system, or change any parts if your immediate need ever became a defensive one. The recoil impulse will be greater, but not to the point that the gun is jumping out of your hands and unmanageable! Most gas-operated guns have the benefit of managing recoil as a function of their design, and the AR-platform weapon systems, especially in 5.56/.223, are very manageable even without all of the things mentioned here.
I hate to do this to you:
I love your products and will continue to run them. The dedication to the art of MSR your company displays is second to none!
That being said the audio on this vid is just trash. The music and mic dropping in and out is totally unworthy of representing your company’s passion and expertise.
Seriously, I’ll recommend your products everyfreakingday of the week, but please lose this video.
Agreed
We should have people like you creating new legislation instead of new products.
I love your stuff but you gotta help fix this mess of a country.
I had no idea what you were talking about
Hu?
I'd rather not spend %20 of my AR on a captured spring system.
then you won't be getting the characteristics & results from your weapon that I get... don't EVER shoot another weapon like mine... one that is tuned with as much disposable money that you could throw at it feasibly... just keep shooting at the intruder in your house, the threat you've been forced to engage... with ol' Jane she's normal & plain, but will still shoot the creep with outstanding results... hopefully.
But, if you take ol' Jane coyote hunting with me and need to engage a single with a follow up shot, or double, a triple... don't expect your weapon to be able to keep up and be ablevto make smooth follow-up shots without your thermal scope losing the target from the recoil from your rifle while you're shooting and for the entire system of parts to be used and function as silently as possible and as smooth, frictionless, and as absolutely quiet as possible together in your rifle, so you can get the validation you desire from being able to help your neighbor (the cattle farmer right down the road) save a baby calf from the 3 coyotes he's been seeing every other morning (as they're running away from yet another day old baby calf) all in one night because you have a tuned weapon system 😉 that is paired with a set of on the job/in the field shooting skills which are comparable to those of a real polished badass and that in turn... unknowingly pays for your JP Silent Capture Spring System in filet minón steaks for you and yours every week for a LONG time AND a reputation that follows you forever for being THAT guy... the one that's a 100% straight-up, sharp shootin', real life sniper-type of hero, that's one hell of a great shot, and generally just a badass type of man's man... the ol' git-ur-dun kinda dude reputation that just snowballs in your community and turns into making thousands or more dollars in the near future... plenty to pay for a 150 dollar JP SCS for ol' Jane to be able to run her squeeky ol' jerky bowels & forcefully rearward thrusting loins, together in conjunction both reliably AND silently...
Oh boy...!!!
He sure is a dead eye ain't he?!!!
@@zekethefishgeek8690 I got the Griffin Buffer and Superlative adjustable gas block. Sorry son, your attention whoring and superiority complex is showing. The Griffin Snach charging handle is also nice, especially with muzzle devices. I also prefer to keep as close to GI speck for parts availability in leaner times.
Before this video,I kinda understood what I needed for my build...
After this video,I'm so confused and over whelmed...lost.
Talking...and Talking...and Talking....but Not showing anything in how you make it all work...pointless and disappointing,thought that I was finally going to learn something by making my build work....UGH!....
Sorry you didn't get what you were looking for here. Do you have some questions we can help with?
@@JPRifles
Lol...Questions?...No
Title: Gas V Mass Regulations in your AR...
kinda miss leading here...
I clicked here thinking that we would see in some ways of demonstrations of the differences of the two and what would be beast for our build...
Instead we have someone swiftly rambling on and on as if we all should know already all the terms and issues he is refering too...kind pointless...huh?
My bad for misunderstanding what the video was?...Not what I was looking for and certanly dont want any questions answered by that guy...sorry
@@ellissmithjr6599 It helps to have a basic understanding of English words first. Is English a 2nd language for you by chance?
I just noticed that you used "miss leading", "beast" instead of best, "too" instead of "to". Maybe autocorrect is cheating you out of what you're trying to say. Happens to me sometimes.
@@LRRPFco52
You must have Not liked my opinion and maybe missed the whole point in that it was about his style of presentation.There was very little in detail and it was vague which left many that are Not familiar with arms or more importantly in matnance and how they work on the inside...That's all it was my friend. It's ok that you disagree with my opinion or didn't have a basic understanding what the whole point was to make him realize that he needs to do better in Presentation,because I know he has a real job in doing so... Passive sarcasm leading to Consructive Criticism 👍...That was the Point.
Again,you Not liking it or disagree is ok but you mentioning about my language and auto correct going stupid on me that you thought I didn't know about?
You do realize that this is Utube right?...where most are posting with less than perfect English and a lot of slang and Abbrv's as well...right?
My point here with you,lighten up my friend because their is a lot of worst things going on in the world my friend.
BTW... I spent 12yrs in the military with 8 of those years in GROUP.I have been all over the world teaching,training and Organizing troups to learn how to fight and survive against Powerful Bad invaders and Perverted,Twisted Religious groups that only know Hate and Power.
That is why I had an opinion of his style of Presentation...that all,not a crisis my friend...but I think you didn't care because that wasn't your motive here...just my opinion.
But good luck to you 👍.
@@ellissmithjr6599 I was tracking exactly what he was talking about the whole time.
Suppressors aren't a "good match" with ANY gun. They're completely "working against" the gun and ammunition in every way possible and increasing the loads on it and the "shooter" everywhere but the "inner ear" and that supposed "benefit" is nothing of the kind since the "physiological effects" of shooting are purely "psychological" and a "suppressor" does nothing to change the fact that a shooter is shooting a gun and attempting to hit some sort of target with it and the suppressor does nothing to HELP hit the target and plenty to HURT hitting the target.
Ohh "look" another "incoherent" rant from our "beloved" "class clown", or as some "would" say "court Jester"! Do you like all the "quotation" marks?!
“This” comment “is literally” hell to “read”