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Zillions, no doubt. Slower runs barely get scrutinized at all; there's just too many. Faster runners nowadays have to put some effort into it but there's never going to be a way to detect everything. The most anybody can say from outside, without knowing exactly what tool the moderator team currently has at their disposal to be able to reject runs quickly and not need to go into statistics and code diving for specific instances, is whether or not a runner's results seem to match that runner's skills *most of the time*. Like, if a runner who's obviously not the best gets a great time, it could easily be just one lucky circumstance, but it if happens again you might want to raise an eyebrow. If a runner who is obviously elite level gets six great times as opposed to a different runner of similar skill who only gets two, is that meaningful? Probably not, but it's also possible the first player is "giving themselves more chances" in some sophisticated way and we'll never know. Just don't cheat, and find a way to stop if you are cheating. It feels nicer in the end.
Hopefully he can move past it. The slightly good part is that he's gonna be seen as authentic for sure because he's probably gonna be under the microscope.
Plus a lot of people who just judge at first glance might may assume that he’s a cheater due to the lineage, it’s stupider reasoning but some people think this way
I still think that Dreams early runs that still have no evidence of being faked, like the ones on his channel, should have stayed. All submitted runs that have evidence of being fake should be removed and all future runs should be rejected. However I think it is wrong to punish runs that are legit because someone cheated later on.
now it makes a lot of sense why he was the first to realize dream was cheating, because logically someone whos been using the exact same method for a long time would notice someone else doing it as well.
@@zakkydumbplayzsnipes1031 You do not know the lengths cheaters go through to cover up what they did so they aren't banned and their online careers ruined..most cheaters don't go down without a fight
NiceTwice is genuinely a great guy, and I feel so bad for him as the sort of intermediary between his brother and his community. This is obviously hard on him, and i think we should all send NiceTwice some love :)
Ive seen alot of people question why alot of really good players with the skill to be able to get wr's end up cheating for it. To put it simply, at least from my own experiences with cheating in the past, most of the time when players of high skill levels cheat, its because the games not going in there favor. They know they can do it, and simply just cant for whatever reason. So they end up cheating in some form to kinda speed up that grind of getting it. Alot of top players also get away with it easier cause of the respect they have in the community and trust they have, but they also know the game more than say, someone who just started running. They know whats possible and what isnt, and can get away with faking runs cause they know what can actually be achieved reasonably. Im guilty of that exact thing myself. i had alot of singleplayer MC worlds where ive used ingame commands through LAN, and would reload the world after using different commands to hide the fact i ever used lan in the first place, and bragged to friends about my progress. little different from speedrunning but still the same idea im trying to get at. i know i can sit here and do it on my own, but at the time it took way to long for my patience, and simply just wanted to get the that point to begin with. Karl Jobst has an amazing video covering this exact topic on why top runners cheat thats deff worth a watch if you want more info.
@@oki5297 I think the fudge factor and what the OP talked about are essentially the same pehnomenon. People feel a sense of entitlement towards something (speedrunners for a certain time and the college students in the study the amount of problems they can solve) and then cheat their result to be more in line to be what they believe is fair.
As someone who splices stuff together really good I am offended at that bad splice with the mouse. I'm an editor, you would notice that 100% of the time, I swear he just didn't know how to fix it or he was just lazy.
The fact that I'm not even into chess and still know Hans shows just how profilic and famous cheating can be. And also I loved the talk about why cheaters cheat. It's fascinating.
@@fluvo no the first half is about people being unable to get a faster time so they cheat while the second part talks about how people could but it would take too long so they cheat to get better luck
@Fluvo the first means that, hypothetically, in ssg, you might make the dragon perch impossibly fast to get a faster time. the second one means that, hypothetically, you might increase your obi rates in 1.15 ssg to get more enters, although the final time might not be faster, you will have more opportunities since more enters
Honestly couldn’t believe it when i first heard about Eric’s cheating scandal. He was one of my favourite runners, my motivation. The fact that he cheated all this time made me lose respect for him :(
Quoting Dan Ariely in this, and IIRC, a specific study that was found to be fake... Seems that it's -turtles- cheaters all the way down with this story.
Whats crazy is that this is the closest anybody has been to cheating and getting away with it. Just imagine how many more cheaters there could of been that havent been caught.
@@bronekriiberg1904none of us have really any idea. Any world record owner could actually just be a really good cheater and we wouldn’t know. We should be glad we can find these guys cheating
Sad that such a respected member could’ve been going behind our back so much. Much love for Nicetwice and hope he endures through. Also, watched Minecravenger’s response video, hope he can find a better path for himself in the future.
a video of zylenox's countless end enters and blind travels and 8:27 would be cool. he is the best player right now Edit: well now he got the new WR so there kinda has to be now lol
I honestly didn’t know he was like the top player rn, I knew him from another game and knew he was good at speedrunning, just not the cream of the crop
I think you missed something BIG when talking about his motivations: the feeling of power. Especially when he'd gained all this notoriety he had power. He knew he could fake a run and make it believable, if not completely undetectable. So he kept it up. Once he got mod, it was even worse.
For context: I was a src leaderboard mod for something else than mcsr... and I never did anything as a moderator on these boards If I may correct you about the perches (11:44) the dragon spawned on y:128 and didnt get in the range of 30 blocks to the first node and flew to the second node too early. really good video
I think another part of it is the personal achievement of it. almost treating speedrunning like a science, TAS's show how fast a run could literally be done, and in a heavily rng dependent run like minecraft, most runner's get fed up and just want a pure skill check of the same thing happening everytime. As an achievement of saying "I did a set seed as fast as I possibly could with the best amount of luck. here's the TAS, but here's the believable human limit". It seems more like to me, similar to dream, they got fed up with the rng and wanted to test themselves on good runs consistently, rather than resetting all the time, once they got the clout, attention, and everything else was when it snowballed, but that seems to me how it initially started.
love myself a weekly thing video, especially now that i'm a part of this community, twt has become my recap on the latest episode of "Wait, wtf happened in MCSR?" irrelevant but also weekly thing video on my birthday lets gooo edit: thank for birthday wishes :D
Wow! This scandal sure was big! Even the BIGGEST one! Thank you The Bi-monthly Thanks for this video bringing me such useful information on the BIGGEST cheating scandal in minecraft speedrunning history
Wow! This scandal sure was big! Even the BIGGEST one! Thank you The Bi-monthly Thanks for this video bringing me such useful information on the BIGGEST cheating scandal in minecraft speedrunning history
@@minaashido518 Things were supposed to be weekly but ended up _not_ being over time, due to less things to talk about and/or longer production times _I assume_
I think that cheating itself is a very fascinating thing because humans have naturally evolved / been conditioned to solve hard problems with trickery and cleverness instead of pure grinding ("think smart not hard"). It's usually considered a good thing to achieve goals using the path of least resistance / the most clever way. Cheating can only really be a thing in trust/honesty based competitions where not every way to solve the problem / achieve what you want is a fair way. I personally believe that there might be something problematic with competition itself because competition corrupts people, just like unrestrained power does. Ofc I'm not arguing against playful competitions like in a video game, but it can teach us an important lesson about the risks/harms of serious competition and subsequently capitalism and it's inherently competitive nature.
Thank you. This has taught me to be more skeptical about Minecraft speed runs. I didn’t realize it was that easy to fake or that you could alter things like perching.
Cheaters are actually good in spotting cheaters. I have used tested a bunch of offline trainers and online mods in GTA back in 2016. We tested all of the features and explored a lot with friends. Today I can spot a cheater for miles, it ended up saving my ass many times.
i kinda feel bad for nice twice, even as a twin myself i can't help but feel a little suspicious of him just bc his brother cheated, even if there's a pretty solid chance he never did or ever will cheat.
The problem with speedrunning (in any game) is that you will simply never truly know if someone is legit or just cheating, and if there are this many cheaters getting caught, just imagine how many aren't getting caught and are getting record times
Not "the" person. He's not even the only person who noticed something off about the pearl rates. But he is the one whose tweet about it got more widely noticed and helped to kick off the actual investigation.
The dude was petty. His twin brother was better at something so he cheated to one up him. Even if he didnt it just shows how shallow of a person he is. He saw his brother pour in hours upon hours of his time into getting better and faster at the game and he still decides to desecrate it and cheat his way to "be better". Regardless of his reasoning, its pathetic. Also, who wouldve thunk it. The guy figuring out that Dream has modified droprates and called him out for it was doing exactly the same on a bigger scale. Though if I remember correctly, when he called Dream out for cheating he had recently gotten a high ranked (cheated) run verified. Outting a popular streamer for cheating was quite smart, since noone would doubt his runs. Especially since he was the one that called him out for cheating.
He probably shouldn’t, as Dan Ariely was already fairly discredited for faking data in his research when this video came out. Many of the studies mentioned here don’t seem to have even taken place.
@@Sodier402 All the more reason to make the video. It's ok to do a video about the psychology of cheating and come to the conclusion that there hasn't been enough credible research.
It's not that hard to figure out. You cheat the first time and get away with it, it's a high. So you cheat again, for both that high and because you know you can get away with it, even if you've just doubled your chances of getting caught. But that still adds to the high. Eventually you get this complex of "I can't get caught" blinding yourself from the reality that you just haven't gotten caught yet. Why did he cheat? Because it felt good to get away with it, and he wanted to feel that again, then he got arrogant because he slowly learned he could keep doing it without getting in trouble for it.
Cheating in a way is like gambling..the feeling of danger as you may get caught and the highs of not being caught (you win or you loose, you either win it all or loose everything). It can get addicting for sure
This is a bit of a take, but a bit from personal experience. Another reason someone might cheat is because of the "danger" or risk of it. This causes adrenaline which is one hell of a drug, and some people find addicting. Sometimes just simply taking that risk, and succeeding, is enough. (This can also be linked to things like gambling.) Anyways just a thought.
Hey, great video, one note: His name is Dan Ariely, and that name is not pronounced Dan O'Reilly. It's pronounced like Ariel from the little mermaid, just with a y at the end.
I think that the idea that Eric cheated because it's a game and he thought it was fun but he didn't like the randomness of the run so he limited the randomness. Then he did it for way longer than he first thought and it became habit Like... its a game
There is a high incentive towards cheating in school, which is that you might benefit by getting better grades. So when a student is sure that they will be able to get away with cheating, their grades are being improved by a few points, which only benefits them if they get away with it and nobody ever notices.
On his q and a stream when asked if he expects his brother to still trust him, his answer in short was "you shouldn't trust anyone". Which is technically correct, but a very cold answer. When asked if he could go back in time would he cheat again, he said yes he would. Let's also not forget that he lied to his twin brother for years, and even after he got caught. Nicetwice asked multiple times if he cheated in more than the first run he got caught with, he promised him he didn't. These sound like pretty awful things but in my opinion he doesn't really understand why what he did was so wrong. He thinks it was smart of him to cheat, because he saved time with it (yes he said that) and he would do it again if he went back in time. He seems to have no guilt about it. Which is not normal. Hope he can grow as a person.
I would still consider the Dream cheating scandal to be bigger, mainly because I'm a fan and literally everyone else hates him, not an easy world we live in
I am so sorry everyone, I wanted a world record so bad, but I didn’t have the mechanics or time to get it done. I didn’t want to admit to it until now because I thought I still had a chance to get this falsely verified. The speedrunning community was correct on the assessment of my run, it was in fact spliced, on the last frame of world creation. This is the same for my 31:16 and 49:46. Pic 1 is from now deleted “Mods please examine this” and pic 2 is from the thing I sent crackedMagnet. I have only done about 50 legitimate resets in my life. I feel so bad and I am done with this chapter of my life. Thank you crackedMagnet for your incredible expertise with technology and the mods for the responsibility of maintaining the legitimacy of the leaderboards. Once again, I am so, so sorry. Later.
I'm a pretty experienced minecraft player, but I'm familiar enough with speed running to know how much rng effects play. Enough for me to not even bother making speed run attempts. I imagine the thought going through their heads was, "I'm not faking my skill. I'm just altering the rng enough to have shot". I myself am not going to start 2000 minecraft worlds and maybe, MAYBE, 1 will be lucky enough to have a shot at a world record. Oh and i cheated at bejeweled. The screen blacks out when you pause, so i would take screen shots, then pause and figure out the next few moves. I got it going until humans just can't make the moves fast enough. Not that I'd ever tell people that it was an un-cheated run, I just wanted to outsmart the designers.
I think a crazy thing about Minecraft cheating nowadays is that after Dream, I feel like the community is mow very familiar with what probabilities are explainable by luck and what aren’t. You’d think someone so knowledgeable about the community would know to tailor their cheating to be still just barely believable based on the statistics, not 1/2.8 BILLION lol.
It pisses me off that even now after coming clean about all the set seed cheating he's still trying to put over that he somehow never cheated in RSG aside from that one 2020 splice. Like no way, dude. No. Way. (Edited to add my reasoning: There's simply no plausible incentive to draw that kind of distinction between "I will cheat this category" but "I will not cheat this other category.") I think he did cheat 1.16 RSG. Aside from some questionable decision-making that was noticed in his sub-10 1.16 run last year, he also had a run in early 2021 that was I think second place at the time (and one of the very first runs ever to beat Couriway's 14:36 world record that stood for almost 3 months). Both of these runs are far faster than his skill level generally and put him in the company of players who are simply better than him. (As shown in many, many tournaments where RNG elements are controlled; I'm not just guessing off of how he plays in leaderboard-eligible runs.) It's an RNG game; this can happen of course and has many times. But it did happen to him twice. He is an admitted and very prolific cheater. And NiceTwice, who has a similar skill level to his brother, didn't ever achieve those kinds of times. Personally I think he's still trying to hold on to the idea that something he did is legit, that he really has the kind of skill that those times suggest. As for motivation, you're probably right. But the thing that sets apart casual "fudge factor" cheaters for me to people like Minecravenger is the level of effort and dedication he put into it. This isn't glancing at a classmate's paper in 7th grade because you forgot to study and panicked (to name one of the two instances of cheating from my own life). This took a considerable amount of work. Even splicing is going pretty far above and beyond the normal process of playing runs, let alone the code modification stuff. And he was doing it from the very, very start. This is someone who very highly desired to have outward results that he (likely) wouldn't have been able to achieve otherwise. Something he wanted enough that he was willing to go considerably out of his way and considerably beyond norms of ethical behavior to attain it.
Or maybe the real reason that he cheated is because the intense randomness present in MC speedrunning is not a mechanic that feels very good to play into, and he's just frustrated that not every category is some variant of the PogLoot category. Like "Why doesn't everyone just modify their game to make a few things feel less frustrating? Why did running the 'vanilla' version of the game have to be the version that grew popular? It just wastes a lot of our time."
Great video! This case study makes cheating so much more confusing and worth understanding. We all cheat, and it's possible to understand why Eric cheated, but still damn hard to come to terms with. Its funny, the psychology of cheating just a little so as not to compromise ones morality ended up throwing all of his genuine skill out at once. By cheating just a little, Eric threw the baby out with the bathwater. Tragic
bro come on, youve cheated too in your life. If you say you havnt, you are currently cheating us by lying. Its not some damning thing to have cheated at a video game. Nobody got hurt, nobody had any adverse consequence outside having their run be 1 rank lower than it would have been. While some people actually recieved motiviation from this guy too, so in all hes still a net positive for the community.@@SeriSeashell
It's funny how many cheaters turn on each other as soon as they think somebody else is cheating like watch a kitchen cheaters video and how many of them get mad because they think the admin is actually cheating and they will actually report the admin for cheating even though they are cheating
Dream exposes Korbanoes for cheating (in the end he was revealed to not be cheating tho), Dream gets exposed for cheating MinecrAvenger exposes Dream for cheating, MinecrAvenger gets exposed for cheating
So after you mentioned Eric being twins with nice twice, I decided to look at The Times of his supposed world records almost every fake run he set was just slightly faster than his brother's real times. It's as if he didn't even care about the world records. He just wanted to beat his brother.
Go x in center, opponent takes gorner(otherwise they lose), take the spot next to your opponent, opponent blocks, and you place an x next to the board, to make a 3 long line. You win
a mod who is cheating..... From a close friend i heared something like this: One of the member of his speedrun group uploaded a speedrun. The Moderator accused him of cheating. He tried to prove that he didnt. With no success...... 4 YEARS LATER they scrolled through the leaderboards and found a speedrun of the mod he accused him to cheat. And you guessed it, It was his own speedrun just stolen from a mod. Its such an absurd thing. I mean going to the mods and say: Hi one of your mods has stolen my gameplay.....Things like these just destroying the trust in mods....
I have cheated in many multiplayer games in the past, for me it was actually the difference in skill. Watching hundreds of better players play the game at a high level that no matter how hard i tried i could never achieve pushed me to want to cheat to gain a bit of advantage. And much like you said it feels like you're unstoppable in those moments, in certain hardcore toxic games it was a nice break to finally being the one on top. But its not a good thing to cheat, getting banned from your favorite games and losing friendships over it is not worth the risk.
I mean, the main thing about cheating is ruining the competitive environment for everyone else playing the game, but keep crying about _your_ bans and _your_ lost friends.
Maybe it's the Minecraft speedrun version of those specific true crime watchers who go "I wouldn't have gotten caught, I know what not to do after watching these documentaries" inside their head
I haven't followed the minecraft speedrunning scene for a while now, and I'm shocked about this video coming out of nowhere for me lmao. I followed Eric during the lockdown and I liked a lot his streams, I would never expected him (edit) cheating for sure. Haha this hurts
too bad that psychological study has some major flaws that lead to bias in the results and need to be re-evaluated before the results can be used to prove anything. However, I am always happy to see others trying to dip their toes in and learn about psychology!
What surprises me the most is that after he noticed that Dream cheated no one thought about checking Eric's runs. Like, hundreds of thousands of people haven't noticed a thing but he did and manually wrote down every pearl and gold... That's not something people just do after speedruns
hindsight is 20/20. I remember being there when it happened and honestly it checked out to me that a fellow runner would notice the pearl drop rates are off when he himself is a runner and would have more of an understanding versus the average viewer. but knowing what we do now, it makes sense he knew because he had cheated the same way
There is a universal rule I follow to try to uncover cheaters. The goal is to look at a person's motives and why they play the game at all. Understanding the foundational reasons someone does what they do can help you to uncover those who have been, or are more likely to be dishonest. Some people do it for fame and money, others purely play for the fun of the game. A good example of this would be Dream vs Etho. Dream needs no introduction, he's a good example of someone who played for the recognition and fame. Not to mention his Ego. While in complete contrast, Etho purely plays for the fun of the game. It's why he left Mindcrack after all, the contract and business side of things was something he had no interest in. There are tons more examples of people I'm fairly confident in never cheating, Pix, Marco, Illumina, Technoblade, but that M4xx guy I tell ya! Watch out! He has some dark secrets! /s
i can vouch for the competitive thing with siblings, i play ultrakill but was never confident i could get P-ranks but he kept telling me i should do it and now i've P-ranked everything in the game and Im waiting for the release of P-2 to P-rank that as well
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The fact that he was caught cheating now instead of 2 years ago makes me wonder how many other cheated runs are out there.
there are probably tons of verified runs that were cheated but you cant catch them all people are always going to find another way
*are
Zillions, no doubt. Slower runs barely get scrutinized at all; there's just too many. Faster runners nowadays have to put some effort into it but there's never going to be a way to detect everything. The most anybody can say from outside, without knowing exactly what tool the moderator team currently has at their disposal to be able to reject runs quickly and not need to go into statistics and code diving for specific instances, is whether or not a runner's results seem to match that runner's skills *most of the time*.
Like, if a runner who's obviously not the best gets a great time, it could easily be just one lucky circumstance, but it if happens again you might want to raise an eyebrow. If a runner who is obviously elite level gets six great times as opposed to a different runner of similar skill who only gets two, is that meaningful? Probably not, but it's also possible the first player is "giving themselves more chances" in some sophisticated way and we'll never know.
Just don't cheat, and find a way to stop if you are cheating. It feels nicer in the end.
Who would you expect to be a cheater if you would have to say (from top runners)?
Oskii famous wow
I feel bad for Nice twice. Though he never cheated, the fact his brother was exposed as a cheater must be far from pleasant for him.
What’s even more unpleasant for him is that he made a video exposing his brother for cheating.
Hopefully he can move past it. The slightly good part is that he's gonna be seen as authentic for sure because he's probably gonna be under the microscope.
Plus a lot of people who just judge at first glance might may assume that he’s a cheater due to the lineage, it’s stupider reasoning but some people think this way
Yea I'm sure his life is ruined because his brother cheated a dumbass videogame lul
@@tankinator451 Damn that must be hard for him
Imagine Dream's reaction when he found out the guy who exposed him was ALSO cheating lol
Takes a cheater to know a cheater
It actually kinda makes sense cuz he knows how cheating works and where you should look to caught a cheater
It’s cheaters all the way down.
knowing how to cheat and doing it before can help you decide and notice things that non-cheaters wouldn't notice.
I still think that Dreams early runs that still have no evidence of being faked, like the ones on his channel, should have stayed. All submitted runs that have evidence of being fake should be removed and all future runs should be rejected. However I think it is wrong to punish runs that are legit because someone cheated later on.
"Players don't cheat to get a faster time. They cheat to get a time, faster."
- Karl Jobst
@@RichConnerGMN Who?
@@RichConnerGMN r u ok
@@RichConnerGMN Huh? Karl has openly admitted he's cheated previously.
@@RichConnerGMN What?
@@Idkoscar1 rwhitegoose
now it makes a lot of sense why he was the first to realize dream was cheating, because logically someone whos been using the exact same method for a long time would notice someone else doing it as well.
Takes one to know one, as they say
@Hanif Setyananda im pretty sure that explanation is just an excuse considering he made someone write a whole document on how he didnt cheat
@vingus the fact he did that just shows us even more that he didn't rlly know and was trying to say sorry Abt it
@@zakkydumbplayzsnipes1031 You do not know the lengths cheaters go through to cover up what they did so they aren't banned and their online careers ruined..most cheaters don't go down without a fight
@@basiliskdoor...right
NiceTwice is genuinely a great guy, and I feel so bad for him as the sort of intermediary between his brother and his community. This is obviously hard on him, and i think we should all send NiceTwice some love :)
yea
NiceTwice, but the third time you're getting it
I agree bro its a block game who actually cares
@@fluvo nice twice didnt cheat?
@@fluvonicetwice didn’t and doesn’t cheat
i think the main reason MincrAvenger knew dream cheated bcoz he noticed his drop rates are as lucky as his
Fr
didn’t think the weekly thing would go all Vsauce on me with the “why do people cheat?”
The fact that he included Hans niemann while talking about cheating is hilarious to me
Lmao to be fair the Minecraft and chess community overlaps a lot
That ones a lot less clear cut
Niemann also looks alot like Dream... lol
the run speaks for itself
@@RuinsOfEntropy the rates speak for themselves
It’s insane that dream admitted to cheating and then deleted the twitlonger and his fans still denied he could’ve cheated
Bro the drama happened literally 3 years ago just let it go
Fr
@@honaldjason He's just saying that he cheated .
He was stupid that's it. Negligent at best.
@@honaldjason found the dream stan
“Any minecraft speedrunner will tell you it’s not about fun.”
Too true. We are too addicted to stop, please save us all.
I tried to come help. Instead now I need saving too
Ive seen alot of people question why alot of really good players with the skill to be able to get wr's end up cheating for it.
To put it simply, at least from my own experiences with cheating in the past, most of the time when players of high skill levels cheat, its because the games not going in there favor. They know they can do it, and simply just cant for whatever reason. So they end up cheating in some form to kinda speed up that grind of getting it.
Alot of top players also get away with it easier cause of the respect they have in the community and trust they have, but they also know the game more than say, someone who just started running.
They know whats possible and what isnt, and can get away with faking runs cause they know what can actually be achieved reasonably.
Im guilty of that exact thing myself. i had alot of singleplayer MC worlds where ive used ingame commands through LAN, and would reload the world after using different commands to hide the fact i ever used lan in the first place, and bragged to friends about my progress. little different from speedrunning but still the same idea im trying to get at. i know i can sit here and do it on my own, but at the time it took way to long for my patience, and simply just wanted to get the that point to begin with.
Karl Jobst has an amazing video covering this exact topic on why top runners cheat thats deff worth a watch if you want more info.
i agree with this and also putting in the fudge factor from the video, it all really makes sense
@@oki5297 I think the fudge factor and what the OP talked about are essentially the same pehnomenon. People feel a sense of entitlement towards something (speedrunners for a certain time and the college students in the study the amount of problems they can solve) and then cheat their result to be more in line to be what they believe is fair.
As someone who splices stuff together really good I am offended at that bad splice with the mouse.
I'm an editor, you would notice that 100% of the time, I swear he just didn't know how to fix it or he was just lazy.
Buckley, what are you doing here? Get back to editing TM.
Go play some Kacky with the Boys Tonight
This is why wirtual doesn’t pay you enough
I did that psychology study in college. Got extra credit in one of my classes and made like $10, even though I only got 6 questions done haha
Funnily enough Dan Ariely has since retracted a lot of those papers on cheating because he faked the data.
The fact that I'm not even into chess and still know Hans shows just how profilic and famous cheating can be. And also I loved the talk about why cheaters cheat. It's fascinating.
As Mr Jobst says;
Cheaters don't cheat to get a faster time, they cheat to get a time faster.
24:40
He really does put a different perspective on speed runs
That literally means the same thing 😂
@@fluvo no they don’t
@@fluvo no the first half is about people being unable to get a faster time so they cheat while the second part talks about how people could but it would take too long so they cheat to get better luck
@Fluvo the first means that, hypothetically, in ssg, you might make the dragon perch impossibly fast to get a faster time. the second one means that, hypothetically, you might increase your obi rates in 1.15 ssg to get more enters, although the final time might not be faster, you will have more opportunities since more enters
was not expecting a deep dive into human psychology, but it was a fitting addition to this very significant cheating scandal.
Honestly couldn’t believe it when i first heard about Eric’s cheating scandal. He was one of my favourite runners, my motivation. The fact that he cheated all this time made me lose respect for him :(
Shame.
Get rekt
@@SurvivingAnotherDay For shame. OP clearly looked up to the guy. I hope you've found new motivation since, @lumin0sityruns !
I guess Eric cheating helps us know he was serious about Dream cheating, since he obviously knows what he's talking about
Quoting Dan Ariely in this, and IIRC, a specific study that was found to be fake... Seems that it's -turtles- cheaters all the way down with this story.
Whats crazy is that this is the closest anybody has been to cheating and getting away with it. Just imagine how many more cheaters there could of been that havent been caught.
you have no idea
@@bronekriiberg1904none of us have really any idea. Any world record owner could actually just be a really good cheater and we wouldn’t know. We should be glad we can find these guys cheating
could've*
"could have"
@@thewiseowl8804 nobody gives a shit its a 7 month old comment
Sad that such a respected member could’ve been going behind our back so much. Much love for Nicetwice and hope he endures through. Also, watched Minecravenger’s response video, hope he can find a better path for himself in the future.
a video of zylenox's countless end enters and blind travels and 8:27 would be cool. he is the best player right now
Edit: well now he got the new WR so there kinda has to be now lol
i agre
He’s popping off
didnt know zylenox speedran mc, i knew them as a gd player
I honestly didn’t know he was like the top player rn, I knew him from another game and knew he was good at speedrunning, just not the cream of the crop
@@InfinityX_78 I knew them as a minecraft speedrunner first then later as a Geometry Dash player when I got back into the game lol
Also poor nicetwice, respect for the apology vid
Ya NiceTwice received backlash even tho he was legit just because he was related to MinecrAvenger :(
@@PowShadowPSH bruhhhh
@@BoroPhil wdym
I think you missed something BIG when talking about his motivations: the feeling of power. Especially when he'd gained all this notoriety he had power. He knew he could fake a run and make it believable, if not completely undetectable. So he kept it up. Once he got mod, it was even worse.
22:20 Ironically, Dan Ariely has faked data for his studies
For context: I was a src leaderboard mod for something else than mcsr... and I never did anything as a moderator on these boards
If I may correct you about the perches (11:44) the dragon spawned on y:128 and didnt get in the range of 30 blocks to the first node and flew to the second node too early.
really good video
still cheating?
And what about the question of why? Why did you cheat?
@@TheNeoModd He's made a video about that
You seemed very desperate for this video to be released...
L bozo+ratio
I think another part of it is the personal achievement of it. almost treating speedrunning like a science, TAS's show how fast a run could literally be done, and in a heavily rng dependent run like minecraft, most runner's get fed up and just want a pure skill check of the same thing happening everytime.
As an achievement of saying "I did a set seed as fast as I possibly could with the best amount of luck. here's the TAS, but here's the believable human limit". It seems more like to me, similar to dream, they got fed up with the rng and wanted to test themselves on good runs consistently, rather than resetting all the time, once they got the clout, attention, and everything else was when it snowballed, but that seems to me how it initially started.
love myself a weekly thing video, especially now that i'm a part of this community, twt has become my recap on the latest episode of "Wait, wtf happened in MCSR?"
irrelevant but also weekly thing video on my birthday lets gooo
edit: thank for birthday wishes :D
happy birthday :D
happy anniversary of your escape from the womb
happy birthday
Happy birthday 🎉
Wow! This scandal sure was big! Even the BIGGEST one! Thank you The Bi-monthly Thanks for this video bringing me such useful information on the BIGGEST cheating scandal in minecraft speedrunning history
I would say that in Future will be a bigger cheating scandal cuz there is for 99,999% a faked run that is verified as Real.
No problem
Wow! This scandal sure was big! Even the BIGGEST one! Thank you The Bi-monthly Thanks for this video bringing me such useful information on the BIGGEST cheating scandal in minecraft speedrunning history
@@TheWeeklyThing I’d like to point out your vids are not weekly so what’s with the name?
@@minaashido518 Things were supposed to be weekly but ended up _not_ being over time, due to less things to talk about and/or longer production times
_I assume_
I think that cheating itself is a very fascinating thing because humans have naturally evolved / been conditioned to solve hard problems with trickery and cleverness instead of pure grinding ("think smart not hard"). It's usually considered a good thing to achieve goals using the path of least resistance / the most clever way. Cheating can only really be a thing in trust/honesty based competitions where not every way to solve the problem / achieve what you want is a fair way.
I personally believe that there might be something problematic with competition itself because competition corrupts people, just like unrestrained power does. Ofc I'm not arguing against playful competitions like in a video game, but it can teach us an important lesson about the risks/harms of serious competition and subsequently capitalism and it's inherently competitive nature.
Interesting thought!
21:47
"Any Minecraft speedrunner will tell you speedrunning is not about having fun."
So true. So so true.
Thank you. This has taught me to be more skeptical about Minecraft speed runs. I didn’t realize it was that easy to fake or that you could alter things like perching.
personally I'd never cheat in a minecraft speedrun because what if The Weekly Thing psychoanalyzes me
"cheaters have existed in almost every competitive setting"
shows Hans "chess speaks for itself" Neimann
6:46 nice transition into the here-current topic at hand, I like it
He just realized dream was cheating because he cheated the same way
10:07 sad cubs fan noise
Cheaters are actually good in spotting cheaters.
I have used tested a bunch of offline trainers and online mods in GTA back in 2016.
We tested all of the features and explored a lot with friends.
Today I can spot a cheater for miles, it ended up saving my ass many times.
theres no way this only has 5.8k views at the time of watching this this quality and time put into this deserves so much more credit. Great video bro
You watched it 2 hours after release lol, it’s already at 13k
@@ianweber1990 thats even low for that time he deserves millions
i kinda feel bad for nice twice, even as a twin myself i can't help but feel a little suspicious of him just bc his brother cheated, even if there's a pretty solid chance he never did or ever will cheat.
Why is his name the weekly thing when he uploads daily
Interestingly the expert quoted about cheating, Dan Ariely, has also been exposed as faking of his research, AKA, "cheating".
Did not expect to see Hans Niemann there lol
5:47 Wow, use of an FTL track in a Minecraft video?! That really brought a smile to my face. Interesting video!
Great video! I can tell a lot of research went into this. This cheating scandal was one of the most complicated ones and you covered it really well!
The problem with speedrunning (in any game) is that you will simply never truly know if someone is legit or just cheating, and if there are this many cheaters getting caught, just imagine how many aren't getting caught and are getting record times
Is this the person that exposed dream of cheating???
yes
LMAO that’s how you know him?
yeah, actually. Perfect example of, "It takes one to know one".
Not "the" person. He's not even the only person who noticed something off about the pearl rates. But he is the one whose tweet about it got more widely noticed and helped to kick off the actual investigation.
@@PowShadowPSH hey I remember you from somewhere
The dude was petty. His twin brother was better at something so he cheated to one up him. Even if he didnt it just shows how shallow of a person he is. He saw his brother pour in hours upon hours of his time into getting better and faster at the game and he still decides to desecrate it and cheat his way to "be better". Regardless of his reasoning, its pathetic.
Also, who wouldve thunk it. The guy figuring out that Dream has modified droprates and called him out for it was doing exactly the same on a bigger scale. Though if I remember correctly, when he called Dream out for cheating he had recently gotten a high ranked (cheated) run verified. Outting a popular streamer for cheating was quite smart, since noone would doubt his runs. Especially since he was the one that called him out for cheating.
This person probably easily called Dream out because of all the cheating he's done.
Video starts at 4:48
I was not expecting to actually learn something about the psychology of cheating. You should do a whole video on just that.
He probably shouldn’t, as Dan Ariely was already fairly discredited for faking data in his research when this video came out. Many of the studies mentioned here don’t seem to have even taken place.
@@Sodier402 All the more reason to make the video. It's ok to do a video about the psychology of cheating and come to the conclusion that there hasn't been enough credible research.
It's not that hard to figure out. You cheat the first time and get away with it, it's a high. So you cheat again, for both that high and because you know you can get away with it, even if you've just doubled your chances of getting caught. But that still adds to the high. Eventually you get this complex of "I can't get caught" blinding yourself from the reality that you just haven't gotten caught yet. Why did he cheat? Because it felt good to get away with it, and he wanted to feel that again, then he got arrogant because he slowly learned he could keep doing it without getting in trouble for it.
Cheating in a way is like gambling..the feeling of danger as you may get caught and the highs of not being caught (you win or you loose, you either win it all or loose everything). It can get addicting for sure
did not see the hans niemann reference coming lmfaoo
I just love that you used Resonance Gabsson remix as a background music to the vid in one part, that music is so cool
remix? im pretty sure its not a remix, its the original one by home
This deserves so much more recognition.
This is a bit of a take, but a bit from personal experience.
Another reason someone might cheat is because of the "danger" or risk of it. This causes adrenaline which is one hell of a drug, and some people find addicting. Sometimes just simply taking that risk, and succeeding, is enough. (This can also be linked to things like gambling.)
Anyways just a thought.
Dude wtf I watch chess and I felt so proud of knowing about Hans Niemann
21:23 That guy got the Schrödinger's Beard.
Hey, great video, one note: His name is Dan Ariely, and that name is not pronounced Dan O'Reilly. It's pronounced like Ariel from the little mermaid, just with a y at the end.
I’ve never watched a sponsor segment all the way through until today, and it was entirely because of the Tank counter. gj
He now is the monthly thing
This comment deserves more attention 🤣
Resonance is such a nostalgic song
Let's step it back for a second and understand that stealing money is a whole lot worse than cheating at Minecraft.
I really wanna read more about the research discussed at 22:15 but it isn't sourced in the description like he said it would be :(
I think that the idea that Eric cheated because it's a game and he thought it was fun but he didn't like the randomness of the run so he limited the randomness. Then he did it for way longer than he first thought and it became habit
Like... its a game
showing hans neiman footage when talking about cheaters made me chuckle
Remember , it's always morally correct to cheat in school
There is a high incentive towards cheating in school, which is that you might benefit by getting better grades. So when a student is sure that they will be able to get away with cheating, their grades are being improved by a few points, which only benefits them if they get away with it and nobody ever notices.
On his q and a stream when asked if he expects his brother to still trust him, his answer in short was "you shouldn't trust anyone". Which is technically correct, but a very cold answer.
When asked if he could go back in time would he cheat again, he said yes he would.
Let's also not forget that he lied to his twin brother for years, and even after he got caught. Nicetwice asked multiple times if he cheated in more than the first run he got caught with, he promised him he didn't.
These sound like pretty awful things but in my opinion he doesn't really understand why what he did was so wrong. He thinks it was smart of him to cheat, because he saved time with it (yes he said that) and he would do it again if he went back in time. He seems to have no guilt about it. Which is not normal. Hope he can grow as a person.
Me realizing the weekly thing is actually the monthly thing
every time one of these videos drop I stop everything and watch the whole thing. hands down my favorite channel
I would still consider the Dream cheating scandal to be bigger, mainly because I'm a fan and literally everyone else hates him, not an easy world we live in
scandal with dream may be bigger for you, but for mc speedrunning community scandal with minecravenger is bigger, due to how trusted minecravenger was
So like the SpaceUK of minecraft?
I am so sorry everyone, I wanted a world record so bad, but I didn’t have the mechanics or time to get it done. I didn’t want to admit to it until now because I thought I still had a chance to get this falsely verified. The speedrunning community was correct on the assessment of my run, it was in fact spliced, on the last frame of world creation. This is the same for my 31:16 and 49:46. Pic 1 is from now deleted “Mods please examine this” and pic 2 is from the thing I sent crackedMagnet. I have only done about 50 legitimate resets in my life. I feel so bad and I am done with this chapter of my life. Thank you crackedMagnet for your incredible expertise with technology and the mods for the responsibility of maintaining the legitimacy of the leaderboards. Once again, I am so, so sorry. Later.
Aww ;w; *hugs*
I'm a pretty experienced minecraft player, but I'm familiar enough with speed running to know how much rng effects play. Enough for me to not even bother making speed run attempts. I imagine the thought going through their heads was, "I'm not faking my skill. I'm just altering the rng enough to have shot". I myself am not going to start 2000 minecraft worlds and maybe, MAYBE, 1 will be lucky enough to have a shot at a world record.
Oh and i cheated at bejeweled. The screen blacks out when you pause, so i would take screen shots, then pause and figure out the next few moves. I got it going until humans just can't make the moves fast enough. Not that I'd ever tell people that it was an un-cheated run, I just wanted to outsmart the designers.
Interesting video. I find the psychology of all of this fascinating, and of course, very relatable. Your conclusions do seem to be rather on point.
Every speedrunner's dream is to be featured in a SummoningSalt video, and every speedrunner's worst nightmare is to be featured in a TWT video.
Such a well made video! I feel like i saw this from you months ago
I think a crazy thing about Minecraft cheating nowadays is that after Dream, I feel like the community is mow very familiar with what probabilities are explainable by luck and what aren’t. You’d think someone so knowledgeable about the community would know to tailor their cheating to be still just barely believable based on the statistics, not 1/2.8 BILLION lol.
It pisses me off that even now after coming clean about all the set seed cheating he's still trying to put over that he somehow never cheated in RSG aside from that one 2020 splice.
Like no way, dude. No. Way. (Edited to add my reasoning: There's simply no plausible incentive to draw that kind of distinction between "I will cheat this category" but "I will not cheat this other category.")
I think he did cheat 1.16 RSG. Aside from some questionable decision-making that was noticed in his sub-10 1.16 run last year, he also had a run in early 2021 that was I think second place at the time (and one of the very first runs ever to beat Couriway's 14:36 world record that stood for almost 3 months). Both of these runs are far faster than his skill level generally and put him in the company of players who are simply better than him. (As shown in many, many tournaments where RNG elements are controlled; I'm not just guessing off of how he plays in leaderboard-eligible runs.) It's an RNG game; this can happen of course and has many times. But it did happen to him twice. He is an admitted and very prolific cheater. And NiceTwice, who has a similar skill level to his brother, didn't ever achieve those kinds of times.
Personally I think he's still trying to hold on to the idea that something he did is legit, that he really has the kind of skill that those times suggest.
As for motivation, you're probably right. But the thing that sets apart casual "fudge factor" cheaters for me to people like Minecravenger is the level of effort and dedication he put into it. This isn't glancing at a classmate's paper in 7th grade because you forgot to study and panicked (to name one of the two instances of cheating from my own life). This took a considerable amount of work. Even splicing is going pretty far above and beyond the normal process of playing runs, let alone the code modification stuff. And he was doing it from the very, very start. This is someone who very highly desired to have outward results that he (likely) wouldn't have been able to achieve otherwise. Something he wanted enough that he was willing to go considerably out of his way and considerably beyond norms of ethical behavior to attain it.
Reminds me of the recent drama with the PvPer Doly...
kinda surprised that hans neimann made it in this video, despite it being about cheating
Or maybe the real reason that he cheated is because the intense randomness present in MC speedrunning is not a mechanic that feels very good to play into, and he's just frustrated that not every category is some variant of the PogLoot category.
Like "Why doesn't everyone just modify their game to make a few things feel less frustrating? Why did running the 'vanilla' version of the game have to be the version that grew popular? It just wastes a lot of our time."
Wait, I swear to god didn't you already make a video about this?? I remember watching an expose about MineCravenger before.
Great video! This case study makes cheating so much more confusing and worth understanding. We all cheat, and it's possible to understand why Eric cheated, but still damn hard to come to terms with. Its funny, the psychology of cheating just a little so as not to compromise ones morality ended up throwing all of his genuine skill out at once. By cheating just a little, Eric threw the baby out with the bathwater. Tragic
"We all cheat" untrue. Not everyone cheats. Speak for yourself
bro come on, youve cheated too in your life. If you say you havnt, you are currently cheating us by lying. Its not some damning thing to have cheated at a video game. Nobody got hurt, nobody had any adverse consequence outside having their run be 1 rank lower than it would have been. While some people actually recieved motiviation from this guy too, so in all hes still a net positive for the community.@@SeriSeashell
how did he use a datapack without it appearing in the datapack list when you type the command for it
It's funny how many cheaters turn on each other as soon as they think somebody else is cheating like watch a kitchen cheaters video and how many of them get mad because they think the admin is actually cheating and they will actually report the admin for cheating even though they are cheating
Dream exposes Korbanoes for cheating (in the end he was revealed to not be cheating tho), Dream gets exposed for cheating
MinecrAvenger exposes Dream for cheating, MinecrAvenger gets exposed for cheating
So after you mentioned Eric being twins with nice twice, I decided to look at The Times of his supposed world records almost every fake run he set was just slightly faster than his brother's real times. It's as if he didn't even care about the world records. He just wanted to beat his brother.
I still don’t know how to cheat in tic tac toe
Go x in center, opponent takes gorner(otherwise they lose), take the spot next to your opponent, opponent blocks, and you place an x next to the board, to make a 3 long line. You win
a mod who is cheating..... From a close friend i heared something like this: One of the member of his speedrun group uploaded a speedrun. The Moderator accused him of cheating. He tried to prove that he didnt. With no success...... 4 YEARS LATER they scrolled through the leaderboards and found a speedrun of the mod he accused him to cheat. And you guessed it, It was his own speedrun just stolen from a mod. Its such an absurd thing. I mean going to the mods and say: Hi one of your mods has stolen my gameplay.....Things like these just destroying the trust in mods....
I have cheated in many multiplayer games in the past, for me it was actually the difference in skill. Watching hundreds of better players play the game at a high level that no matter how hard i tried i could never achieve pushed me to want to cheat to gain a bit of advantage. And much like you said it feels like you're unstoppable in those moments, in certain hardcore toxic games it was a nice break to finally being the one on top.
But its not a good thing to cheat, getting banned from your favorite games and losing friendships over it is not worth the risk.
I mean, the main thing about cheating is ruining the competitive environment for everyone else playing the game, but keep crying about _your_ bans and _your_ lost friends.
Maybe it's the Minecraft speedrun version of those specific true crime watchers who go "I wouldn't have gotten caught, I know what not to do after watching these documentaries" inside their head
I haven't followed the minecraft speedrunning scene for a while now, and I'm shocked about this video coming out of nowhere for me lmao. I followed Eric during the lockdown and I liked a lot his streams, I would never expected him (edit) cheating for sure. Haha this hurts
Same
too bad that psychological study has some major flaws that lead to bias in the results and need to be re-evaluated before the results can be used to prove anything. However, I am always happy to see others trying to dip their toes in and learn about psychology!
Great video, my only note is that I go by she/they pronouns now, rather than he/him.
(Yes, I was formerly flowbee)
17:05 you’re literally more likely to win the sperm race and get conceived than get those odds lmao
What surprises me the most is that after he noticed that Dream cheated no one thought about checking Eric's runs. Like, hundreds of thousands of people haven't noticed a thing but he did and manually wrote down every pearl and gold... That's not something people just do after speedruns
hindsight is 20/20. I remember being there when it happened and honestly it checked out to me that a fellow runner would notice the pearl drop rates are off when he himself is a runner and would have more of an understanding versus the average viewer. but knowing what we do now, it makes sense he knew because he had cheated the same way
17:25 HOME resonance!!?!!
There is a universal rule I follow to try to uncover cheaters. The goal is to look at a person's motives and why they play the game at all. Understanding the foundational reasons someone does what they do can help you to uncover those who have been, or are more likely to be dishonest. Some people do it for fame and money, others purely play for the fun of the game. A good example of this would be Dream vs Etho. Dream needs no introduction, he's a good example of someone who played for the recognition and fame. Not to mention his Ego. While in complete contrast, Etho purely plays for the fun of the game. It's why he left Mindcrack after all, the contract and business side of things was something he had no interest in. There are tons more examples of people I'm fairly confident in never cheating, Pix, Marco, Illumina, Technoblade, but that M4xx guy I tell ya! Watch out! He has some dark secrets! /s
techno :(
@@RichConnerGMN I have trouble getting over techno. I've been with him for many many years now.
@@RichConnerGMN Seriously, I mean this with all my heart. Fuck cancer
i can vouch for the competitive thing with siblings, i play ultrakill but was never confident i could get P-ranks but he kept telling me i should do it and now i've P-ranked everything in the game and Im waiting for the release of P-2 to P-rank that as well