How to Insulate an Old Building (DESTRUCTIVE METHOD)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 лип 2022
- This building from the mid-19th century had been altered several times and had been semi-abandoned before the current owner took it over. It didn't have any original features, so stripping the walls and ceiling allowed us to install a fully insulated timber frame. If you own a listed building with original cornices or other features, this method usually isn't feasible.
#insulation
#oldbuildings
#oldhouse
#renovation
#renovations
#renovationproject
Must say very nicely done ✔️
Thank you
@@RealLifeArchitecturenice but that insulation is not fire proof. If the fire gets through the foil you're in trouble.
@@jonmould2946 pir board burns at very high temperature. Greenfell was specific condition and such conditions where 50mm un firestopped cavity over 24 floors 67 meters using Celotex RS5000 PIR similar to that on video. Given the lack of chimney effect and it being 2.7 metre rather than 67 metres it will not burn.
Love the vid
Just completed the very same installation on a 1800's Scottish 600mm granite stone house, using 72mm stud timber and 70mm Cooltherm insulation batt.. Complete with a 50mm external wall air cavities, with all the internal stud wall's, also with both the ground floor and first floor ceilings double insulated as well.
I bought Rockwool Insulation for my wooden shed would be good. But now I'm told that mould can grow on the wooden part of the shed
Nice nice 👌
I'm trying to get my head around this... So you have the 50mm cavity on the inside and therefore the dew point is in that gap... genius.. but how do you ventilate that cavity,
Awesome upload - love the approach you have taken, btw - do you have an update?
I’m afraid I don’t, sorry. I wasn’t involved during construction, I just happened to be passing and the builder let me have a look around the site. It’s almost complete now.
I have made a detailed video about insulation, check it out ua-cam.com/video/O_fs_Du1GzE/v-deo.html
@@RealLifeArchitecture Thank you for the reply.
How do you keep the insulation in place when it’s not pressed up against the wall? What is the best type of insulation?
This insulation is solid / rigid. There is a sheet of OSB board at the back of the frame, so the insulation can’t fall through.
There is no one “best” insulation. Expensive insulation can be thinner than cheap insulation, for the same R-value (ability to resist heat transfer)
Hey, quick question.
How do you place, install and fix the OSB board behind the stud framing, whilst maintaining the air gap in front of the stone wall?
My mind is doing mental gymnastics over something that is probably quite simple.
Furthermore, can a vapeur brake be installed instead of a barrier. The brake allows moisture to pass in both directions but at a very reduced rate. The issue I have with my stone wall is it has a stucco cement based render on the external side.
Many thanks.
No vapour barrier needed on the back of the stud?
Hi if you have a 1920’s home with a cavity in place could you just stud directly on to the internal wall or would it cause future problems thanks
Should be fine with it having a cavity inbetween the brick walls
Thanks for the video. Would it be beneficial to stick a vent at the bottom and top of a couple of the walls in order to allow some fresh air circulation in the gap?
Also, how are the studs fitted into the floor if the floor is original Victorian tile with nothing but earth underneath those tiles?
need to pour 8cm concrete ALWAYS, to get the upcoming water stopped........@@AtlasofInfo
What is the point of insulating it if you add vents , thats like leaving a window open on your house 24/7
@Winfield1990 Modern homes have vents fitted to windows etc, too. It's trickle ventilation. Also, I'm not sure if you would add them in this case, I'm just asking the question. You would probably need an air brick on the outside, though.
I understand the 'right' way to do this is not to add vents but to seal the void up providing you have removed cementitious render/mortar and any other non-breathable materials from the solid wall inside and out. If you do this and you have a continuous vapour barrier on the inside of the insulation you don't need to ventilate the void. The reason is that any moisture from within the habitable space is prevented from getting into the void by the vapour barrier, and the solid wall as a whole can 'breathe' and any moisture within the void will make its way through the solid wall to the outside.
The method we are using is wood fibre direct to the solid 2m 800mm wall, it’s vapour open but excellent thermal insulator…problem is it costs about 4x PIR.
Wet-sprayed cellulose might be cheaper
@@pauld3327that sounds interesting…do you have any links that I might follow to look into more? Thank you!
Did you actually check with a retrofit specialist about any of this? It is not about being breathable it's about where the dew point is. The cavity is needed to allow humidity to move out of the house through the masonry wall (not into the living space). You should regularly check your wall for mould growth especially since your wood fibres will eventually support bacterial growth ( once the retardant wears out ).
As per my comment above it all spec’ed by conservation architect. Where the wood fibre is in direct contact with the wall, the dew point as i understand is in the insulation. Also as vapour open it will just absorb the moisture and release in the summer.
Do you internal venting aswell for that then?
Thanks for this video, could you fix the wooden rafters directly onto the stone and have larger insulation boards fixed onto the rafters at day 600mm centres? This way instead of thermal bridging from all these rafters, you only have thermal bridging from the fixings? If the rafters stopping air is an issue, maybe drill a few holes in each rafter so air can still move through the cavity?
A rafter is a sloping piece of timber in a roof. The vertical timbers in this wall are called studs.
The design in the video avoids thermal bridging by keeping the studs off the stone wall.
No point having more insulation that 140-150mm phenolic, there isn’t any heat left to save.
You can fix the timber frame to the wall directly however the insulation has to allow for an air channel behind and you have to use insulated studs that cost a lot more. You will not have any space savings and frankly this is a much better and consistent method of insulation. Also the stud wall is going to be plenty solid and if you really need to fix a very heavy item to the wall you always have the option of going through the stud wall and fixing into the stone.
I think you are missing the point here, retrofitting old buildings is hard and requires expert knowledge.
All well and good until condensation in the void starts to rot the studwork.
Unless you are mechanically ventilating that void you're moisture movement will still sit in the void and eventually rot the wood.
Lime mortar and a wall that thick would have been more than warm enough. Heat would take a long time to leave the property with lime plaster and the sheer depth of wall would likely be fine, depending on the state of your windows and doors. I.e if they are single pane or drafty.
If you don't use breathable materials on buildings of this age, the walls will never get the chance to dry out/evaporate the moisture. That the building takes on over its lifespan.
If you want to insulate a very old building you need to use something that allows moisture movement through the fabric of the building.
This method will show short term results, (heat retention and a positive difference in energy bills) but long term this will not stand the test of time.
What about if a house wrap is used behind the studs and the area behind the house wrap is ventilated?
What about if a house wrap is used behind the studs and the area behind the house wrap is ventilated?
As long as you have external vents on the solid wall i see no reason why any condensation isnt going to dry out the same way the bricks dry out when it rains from the outside. As long as there is ventilation and the brick work is not sealed from the external face using some render or sealing paint then it cant hold condensation internally on a permanent basis as it always has a chance to dissipate
A vapour ayeron warm side of insulation will prevent moisture going behind wall. Less moisture than before... as such drier than before. Not more damp
@@fin962 That's how I do it
Excuse me sir, im in the process of doing this exact job to an old building of mine. What would you recommend insulating the internal floors and ceiling with? Thanks and good wishes from scotland ❤️🏴
Best get architect. Avoid damp
How did you keep the gap consistent of 50mm? How is the frame constructed so that it doesn't go against the wall (if that makes sense)
Pick a reference point, and draw a straight line (or use laser)
Do you need the 50mm cavity or can you install this straight onto the wall… I have a small room… thinking 3x2 frame with 50mm kingspan… fastened to the wall
If you use wet sprayed cellulose, you don't need the 50 mm cavity.
I would leave cavity. No spray foam.
So you have to leave an air gap?
no insulation in gap?
This is very well done ,no doubt !
However, I wouldn't do this. I'd rather insulate the exterior of the house . Granted , this will change the appearance of the building and if a listed building ,then it may be even prohibited but if done externally, decorative stones can be added to preserve the appearance .
External insulation is surely much better than internal in terms if heat mass of the walls and vapour sealing .
What does the 50mm cavity do?
same question
probably lets the wall breathe better if you add some space.
I am interested to know how the stone wall will remain dry in the wet winter producing an unacceptable level of internal moisture progressing to mould without the internal warmth/heat acting upon it ?
If at all possible is external insulation preferable ?
Thank you
Thick stone walls are subject to a wet / dry cycle. The water comes in from the outside and goes back out the same way. The wind and sun draw the moisture out.
@@RealLifeArchitecture Thank you for your reply. Would the same method apply to 9" solid walls with lime mortar ?
@@gibbodive140 this wall is 600mm / 24 inches and built with lime mortar. The lime endures the sandstone blocks can breathe
What happens with the cold spots around the windows
insulated plasterboard
How about curved walls?
My house has no cavity it’s 9inch brickwork. Would I strip plaster back to brick and drill studs to the wall or do the same as you? Also do you need to have ventilation in between the wall and stud wall?
The cavity isn’t ventilated. It’s purpose is to prevent moisture affecting the timber studs and also as an additional layer of insulation in its own right.
If your house is built as you describe, take care to check it’s listing status (if in the UK) Stripping the internal linings will destroy any period feature. Also check this video out for more detail ua-cam.com/video/O_fs_Du1GzE/v-deo.html
@@RealLifeArchitecture just watched it. Thanks don’t think insulation is worthit now
@@RealLifeArchitectureIf the cavity isn’t ventilated what’s the difference between this and flat roof insulation w/ a 50mm gap and no ventilation (which we know would cause sweating and mold)?
@@RealLifeArchitecture has the video you linked been taken down? The link appears to be broken and I’m really interested to find out more.
I'd you have external references then maybe external insulation possible? Wetherby system best. Check online fir grants £9k
Thermal bridging. Those studs need insulation
Insulation backed plasterboard, with a vapour barrier, will be fitted over the top of those studs.
@@RealLifeArchitectureYou didn't need those two commas.
@@hashnotall6263 I bet you're fun at parties.
@hashnotall6263 you don't need to, exist
Insulate from the outside and you can preserve the features on the inside, but the outside will look boring. So what is more important for you: how it looks from the inside or how it looks from the outside. Decisions, decisions.... ;-)
That looks like an R 13 at best, with no air seal, which is something that could dramatically improve energy conservation. You're blocking the wall anyway, why not use 2 lb insulation behind those studs to prevent thermal bridging as well?
The cavity will be sealed.
Wheres your vapour barrier on the back of the stud wall
The vapour barrier went on top of the insulation, behind the plasterboard
How do you deal with the window reveals?
Thinner insulation on the reveal and deeper window frames to accommodate this
@@RealLifeArchitecture thanks
Considering 2x4 studs (timber) only average R-4.3, it’s interesting that’s “The best way to do it.”
They were covered with a layer of insulation backed plasterboard, that wall had a uvalue of 0.2
Non breathable materials used , mould in 6 months !
Exactly! This method is wrong
No, because there's a gap between the old and new wall. As long as there's no bridging, the floor is not suffocating, there's adequate drainage around the perimeter of the building and lime mortar used as well as ventilation that can get in between the walls, then it should be fine.
There are surely some buildings that it must be better to leave uninsulated. The roof/ceiling is easily done and then leave the walls exposed an concentrate the efforts on moisture reduction(MVHR) and energy production with solar/storage to reduce the cost of heating and balance the overall energy costs. This can't be far off building a SIP structure inside the building and using the stone as ventilated cladding.
Question. Whos going to look inside a listed building if you own it.
What do you think about putting the foam directly over the wall, studding it out over top, then putting R13 in the newly studded wall.
It’s always better to have a cavity between the stone and any inner lining. Helps the wall breathe.
Why not use MF5 channels screwed into brick direct can be made air tight nothing will rot.? Insulation backed boards can then be screwed over top, and even a vapour barrier before the board if it ain't soil backed. Can be left sealed at the bottom or top even, significantly improve heat retention.
We’re is the damp proof membrane. To stop any damp coming through
Only timber studs touching the under face of the stone wall would have DPM. The cavity is there to keep the timber away from damp stone and the stone wall can “breathe”, so if it gets damp from rain it will dry out again afterwards. There will be a vapour barrier on the inside face of the timber frame, between the insulation and plasterboard. This will prevent moisture in the inside air from getting into the timber. Air in dwellings is full of moisture from cooking and cleaning, as well as people breathing. All modern properties are designed with mechanical extractors to remove this.
@@RealLifeArchitecture excellent answer do you need a vent behind the decoupled wall and I am assuming you put a dpc under the sole plate,or is it needed.have to do the same thing in a two year old cottage in Galway in Ireland the walls are two foot think stone built with a clay time soft mortar.
Two hundred year old cottage.
@@thomassheridan4252 this video was shot on the first floor. If this were the ground floor then a DPC on the sole plate would be necessary. It often isn’t possible or desirable to vent these walls, they are usually pours if built from sandstone and that works both ways.
@@RealLifeArchitecture thanks very much for getting back to me,I will take your advice very good short .
Why not do this in alisted building you said??
Interior demolition of historic features would require review and permission.
What is that styrofoam called?
Kingspan. Most pir boards are much same
This is NOT good advise!!! You have just moved the dew point inside the building and condensation/mould is inevitable. Breathable insulation and vapour control barriers (without cavities) are essential
No, it's not. "destroy interior!!" Insulate externally, the walls become thermal stores.
No it
Dont the wall will suck heat from the house all the time you trying to keep heat inside not keep cold off wall
Hello, I see this video was posted over a year ago. A lot of conflicting comments here. This was the method I was going to use so I’d like to know if you ever had any problems? Or would you recommend a different method?
No problems, the building is just down the road from where I live and I meet the client / owner regularly
@@RealLifeArchitecture good to know.
Did you use a vapour barrier behind?
Even if your building isn't listed, destroying history for some soulless modern design is cancer. Don't do it.
This building had been abandoned and unoccupied for over a decade. It was falling to pieces but now has two offices on the ground floor and three flats upstairs.
Scrolling through many comments, yours was the first I found that lamented the destruction of the historic aspects of a property. Personaly I will lower the energy costs by keeping the heat down and putting on a jumper.
in order this tobe any good, that gap suppose to be filed with insulation foam or rock wool solid. if you bring pack of insulation material in the middle of the room, do you think room will be better insulated🤔
I d be inclined to install solar panels instead to save on electricity and leave the stone work exposed.
Stop giving bad advice it's not good way to insulate its poor insulation must be continuous and air tight
Better replace 89 x 38 CLS ( 90mm PIR board) with with 38 x 50 . Place 50mm Pir board with 40mm over face to acheive 0.2 better u value. Save money on timber spend on useful insulaion. Better for planet as less wood used and less energy lost in lifetime of build
Your voice sounds like a british "taken" voice. Please do the taken monologue.
I’m Irish
Calling someone with an obviously Irish accent 'British' is a surefire way to find yourself 'taken', and probably never seen again.
Bummer, new architecture sucks. The old stuff was awesome.
Endi gʼishtli devorni olib tashlasangiz boʼladi😁
👍
Certainly not the best. You should of spray foamed.