Your basic book club format has been: (1) summary (2) deep dive takeaways and (3) spice morsels. In these Frank does most of the heavy lifting and you just get to choose just about any random quote and unpack. For the Brian books, I can imagine (1) a much less detailed summary (as you said, they are less dense, to their discredit) followed by (2) “Following Frank” with one or two ways in which this work enhances/explores theme or lore established by Frank and one or two ways it elides/breaks theme or lore established by Frank and (3) spice morsels which, rather than providing the expanded Encyclopedia info behind a reference, provides the smaller Frank quote that the Brian discursion jumped off from (as you did with “whale fur” in the most recent Sisterhood Episode 3 review). The problem, as you noted, from a simple economics perspective is that this is a lot of work - as you have to do more heavy lifting to distill insights from lengthy, lower quality work than you have to do extracting insight from dense, high quality work. That being said, I would be in your audience and would welcome, say, a 2-3 episode arc on each Brian book once you’ve completed Chapterhouse. I love your work guys, keep it up.
I actually really liked Paul of Dune and Winds of Dune, Can’t imagine reading the original 6 without the context those 2 give. the Butlerian Jihad trilogy was rough to finish but I cried at the end, loved the ending and I’m HATING right now Hunters of Dune, I’m midway through
My vision of purgatory is doing a podcast with a book club of all Brian Herbert books. I can stand a program or two about them, but I am not going to listen several podcasts about that. By the way I red several of Brian Herbert books, including all of the Butlerian Jihad and Hunters and Worms. Just because my girlfriend (now my wife) kept giving me as gift every year by Christmas.
We'd never cover the Brian books chapter-by-chapter book club style. There's just not enough substance there to warrant that much effort and that many episodes.
I really want you to cover Hunters and Sandworms, as I’m morbidly curious about them (I was so bored by the middle of Hunters that I gave up finishing them myself). I really want you to shit on them though, but also use the opportunity as a springboard to discuss the themes of the original books. Explaining how the Brian Herbert books misses the mark, might further highlight what makes Frank Herbert’s books good.
We'll definitely cover Hunters and Sandworms. Just not in the intense chapter-by-chapter deep-dive style we do with Frank's books. Probably just an episode or two on each maximum.
If you don't like the B&K books - then FFS, DON'T do a podcast TRASHING them. The badmouth-giggling insults in your show are juvenile and bad enough (because it ruins what is otherwise, a really good podcast.) I've read Dune 9 times (so far - but I'm old AF.) I enjoyed all the expanded universe B&K books (and have even read them not only in publication order but chronologically as well (including the Frank books because NERD.) I enjoy them because they're more of the Dune Universe and I never expected them to be written in the same style Frank wrote, because B&K aren't Frank. (I've yet to read the newest Calidan trilogy.) To be honest, while I love the first 3 Frank books, the last three aren't anywhere close to the first three, and are a bit of a hot mess because Frank's life was a hot mess and so much of his life during that time was reflected in those books. (The horrid homophobia in God Emperor...) I have to say I'm very tired of the Frank Purists™ bashing these books. It's insulting to the fans and those who worked hard on the series that people like Quinn think it's okay to decide his pronunciation of names like Richese are correct over B&K's pronunciation (they're both executive producers not only on the show, but also on the Villeneuve films, and it's their IP. And don't forget: Villeneuve was supposed to direct the pilot of the series.) Brian Herbert isn't some yahoo off the street that decided to write fan fiction (like the Dune Encyclopedia) and doesn't deserve to be treated as such. He's Frank's son, who received Frank's notes with his blessing when Frank was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer that had an exponentially lower survival rate in 1986 than it does now, (and it's still not great.) He didn't decide he was an author after Frank died. He collaborated with Frank on both Man Of Two Worlds and part of Road to Dune. So what if some of the lore is different than Frank's books? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I see more people giving the Dune Encyclopedia more credit when even Frank wrote in the forward that it's not a reliable source, yet people treat it as if Frank wrote it when it's fan fiction at best, and there are more contradictions between that and Frank's books than in the B&K novels and Brian grew up with Frank and those books. It's like the ASOIAF purists (many who are Dune fans) hating on the show when not only did the show runners fix the mess of the last two published books when GRRM attempted to throw off everyone who'd figured out the Great Mystery of the plot because he put the answer midway through the first book. And they're the ones who can't see the mountain that George, "borrowed" from Dune. Of course the show was contractually obligated to get to George's ending. George would never have agreed to to license his work with out it after being a show runner himself. (It's basically the end of Dune Messiah.) [Full Disclosure: I work in the industry.] If enough people continue to bash the show (and especially the B&K books), not only will we get no more shows in the DU, but Dune Messiah will have a harder time getting out of pre-production. It's all Legendary, WB, HBO. It's bad enough that the Industry is currently on it's knees ("survive until '25" is the current mantra), due to COVID, then the very-necessary strikes of WGA, SAG-AFTRA, IATSE, & The Teamsters, but the oncoming global economic chaos if a certain handful of bazillionaires have their way. If that happens, all we'll get are reality-based and CW-level shows that can be churned out on a very small budget. Whether or not you like B&K's writing, we need more shows like Dune:Prophecy. Yes, 6 episodes is crazy short. It's part of the reason of the upheaval in their production, just as 8 episodes in S2 of HOTD was too short. Those decisions didn't come from the show runners, but the executives bankrolling them (HBO/WB, who are also in charge of Dune Messiah.)
You've stated a lot of valid opinions here, but you have a number of facts wrong. Frank gave the Encyclopedia his blessing, try reading the forward more closely. A deep reading of the Encyclopedia versus Brian novels reveals that Brian tampered with the lore far more devastatingly and his books have many more discrepancies than the Encyclopedia. He also seemingly wholesale lifted entire ideas and characters from the Encyclopedia without credit, and likely used his legal muscle to kill it. Just because he's Frank's son does not mean he's shielded from valid criticisms about his writing, storytelling, and business decisions. Just as Frank himself is not shielded from valid criticisms about his later books in the series (icky homophobia, sexualization, etc). I suggest you listen to our "The Messy Canonicity of Dune Explained" episode for a detailed history and analysis of all of this and an explanation of why we dislike Brian's novels.
You make good points. I’ve read the BH books, love Dune:Prophecy, and all aspects of the wider Dune universe. I’ve never heard Frank mention House Ordos but that doesn’t mean I don’t like the video games. I love the David Lynch film even though I’m fairly sure Paul couldn’t magically make it rain. However, personally, I will never believe that Frank meant Marty and Daniel to be Erasmus and Omnius. Those are newer inventions, and completely valid ones. But just as you argue the Encyclopaedia isn’t canon, then I can argue anything else not FH is too because everyone’s opinion of canon is different . Everyone will interpret and add or change when they add to a larger body of work. Doesn’t mean we still can’t respect and enjoy it though and folks should have more respect for other interpretations.
Thank you for your comment…. I’ve been defending the expanded universe books for awhile now. They are really good books and don’t deserve all the flack they get… Frank definitely told Brian the ending and people can’t except that fact. More people need to give these books a fair shot and stop being a sheep.
Your basic book club format has been: (1) summary (2) deep dive takeaways and (3) spice morsels. In these Frank does most of the heavy lifting and you just get to choose just about any random quote and unpack.
For the Brian books, I can imagine (1) a much less detailed summary (as you said, they are less dense, to their discredit) followed by (2) “Following Frank” with one or two ways in which this work enhances/explores theme or lore established by Frank and one or two ways it elides/breaks theme or lore established by Frank and (3) spice morsels which, rather than providing the expanded Encyclopedia info behind a reference, provides the smaller Frank quote that the Brian discursion jumped off from (as you did with “whale fur” in the most recent Sisterhood Episode 3 review). The problem, as you noted, from a simple economics perspective is that this is a lot of work - as you have to do more heavy lifting to distill insights from lengthy, lower quality work than you have to do extracting insight from dense, high quality work. That being said, I would be in your audience and would welcome, say, a 2-3 episode arc on each Brian book once you’ve completed Chapterhouse. I love your work guys, keep it up.
I read Hunters and sandworms of Dune those books are great the ending of Sandworms is chef's Kiss 🎉🎉🎉🎉
Really appreciate you guys, deserve more views as true Dune nerds 😂 cheers
I actually really liked Paul of Dune and Winds of Dune, Can’t imagine reading the original 6 without the context those 2 give. the Butlerian Jihad trilogy was rough to finish but I cried at the end, loved the ending and I’m HATING right now Hunters of Dune, I’m midway through
My vision of purgatory is doing a podcast with a book club of all Brian Herbert books. I can stand a program or two about them, but I am not going to listen several podcasts about that.
By the way I red several of Brian Herbert books, including all of the Butlerian Jihad and Hunters and Worms. Just because my girlfriend (now my wife) kept giving me as gift every year by Christmas.
We'd never cover the Brian books chapter-by-chapter book club style. There's just not enough substance there to warrant that much effort and that many episodes.
I really want you to cover Hunters and Sandworms, as I’m morbidly curious about them (I was so bored by the middle of Hunters that I gave up finishing them myself).
I really want you to shit on them though, but also use the opportunity as a springboard to discuss the themes of the original books. Explaining how the Brian Herbert books misses the mark, might further highlight what makes Frank Herbert’s books good.
I read Hunters and sandworms of Dune I love those books I'm rereading Paul of Dune and Jessica of Dune 🎉🎉🎉
We'll definitely cover Hunters and Sandworms. Just not in the intense chapter-by-chapter deep-dive style we do with Frank's books. Probably just an episode or two on each maximum.
Please no. Enough with the negativity. Sorry you expected Frank's son to be a clone of him and write in the same exact style as Frank.
If you don't like the B&K books - then FFS, DON'T do a podcast TRASHING them. The badmouth-giggling insults in your show are juvenile and bad enough (because it ruins what is otherwise, a really good podcast.) I've read Dune 9 times (so far - but I'm old AF.) I enjoyed all the expanded universe B&K books (and have even read them not only in publication order but chronologically as well (including the Frank books because NERD.) I enjoy them because they're more of the Dune Universe and I never expected them to be written in the same style Frank wrote, because B&K aren't Frank. (I've yet to read the newest Calidan trilogy.) To be honest, while I love the first 3 Frank books, the last three aren't anywhere close to the first three, and are a bit of a hot mess because Frank's life was a hot mess and so much of his life during that time was reflected in those books. (The horrid homophobia in God Emperor...) I have to say I'm very tired of the Frank Purists™ bashing these books. It's insulting to the fans and those who worked hard on the series that people like Quinn think it's okay to decide his pronunciation of names like Richese are correct over B&K's pronunciation (they're both executive producers not only on the show, but also on the Villeneuve films, and it's their IP. And don't forget: Villeneuve was supposed to direct the pilot of the series.) Brian Herbert isn't some yahoo off the street that decided to write fan fiction (like the Dune Encyclopedia) and doesn't deserve to be treated as such. He's Frank's son, who received Frank's notes with his blessing when Frank was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer that had an exponentially lower survival rate in 1986 than it does now, (and it's still not great.) He didn't decide he was an author after Frank died. He collaborated with Frank on both Man Of Two Worlds and part of Road to Dune. So what if some of the lore is different than Frank's books? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I see more people giving the Dune Encyclopedia more credit when even Frank wrote in the forward that it's not a reliable source, yet people treat it as if Frank wrote it when it's fan fiction at best, and there are more contradictions between that and Frank's books than in the B&K novels and Brian grew up with Frank and those books. It's like the ASOIAF purists (many who are Dune fans) hating on the show when not only did the show runners fix the mess of the last two published books when GRRM attempted to throw off everyone who'd figured out the Great Mystery of the plot because he put the answer midway through the first book. And they're the ones who can't see the mountain that George, "borrowed" from Dune. Of course the show was contractually obligated to get to George's ending. George would never have agreed to to license his work with out it after being a show runner himself. (It's basically the end of Dune Messiah.) [Full Disclosure: I work in the industry.] If enough people continue to bash the show (and especially the B&K books), not only will we get no more shows in the DU, but Dune Messiah will have a harder time getting out of pre-production. It's all Legendary, WB, HBO. It's bad enough that the Industry is currently on it's knees ("survive until '25" is the current mantra), due to COVID, then the very-necessary strikes of WGA, SAG-AFTRA, IATSE, & The Teamsters, but the oncoming global economic chaos if a certain handful of bazillionaires have their way. If that happens, all we'll get are reality-based and CW-level shows that can be churned out on a very small budget. Whether or not you like B&K's writing, we need more shows like Dune:Prophecy. Yes, 6 episodes is crazy short. It's part of the reason of the upheaval in their production, just as 8 episodes in S2 of HOTD was too short. Those decisions didn't come from the show runners, but the executives bankrolling them (HBO/WB, who are also in charge of Dune Messiah.)
You've stated a lot of valid opinions here, but you have a number of facts wrong.
Frank gave the Encyclopedia his blessing, try reading the forward more closely. A deep reading of the Encyclopedia versus Brian novels reveals that Brian tampered with the lore far more devastatingly and his books have many more discrepancies than the Encyclopedia. He also seemingly wholesale lifted entire ideas and characters from the Encyclopedia without credit, and likely used his legal muscle to kill it.
Just because he's Frank's son does not mean he's shielded from valid criticisms about his writing, storytelling, and business decisions. Just as Frank himself is not shielded from valid criticisms about his later books in the series (icky homophobia, sexualization, etc).
I suggest you listen to our "The Messy Canonicity of Dune Explained" episode for a detailed history and analysis of all of this and an explanation of why we dislike Brian's novels.
You make good points. I’ve read the BH books, love Dune:Prophecy, and all aspects of the wider Dune universe. I’ve never heard Frank mention House Ordos but that doesn’t mean I don’t like the video games. I love the David Lynch film even though I’m fairly sure Paul couldn’t magically make it rain. However, personally, I will never believe that Frank meant Marty and Daniel to be Erasmus and Omnius. Those are newer inventions, and completely valid ones. But just as you argue the Encyclopaedia isn’t canon, then I can argue anything else not FH is too because everyone’s opinion of canon is different . Everyone will interpret and add or change when they add to a larger body of work. Doesn’t mean we still can’t respect and enjoy it though and folks should have more respect for other interpretations.
Thank you for your comment…. I’ve been defending the expanded universe books for awhile now. They are really good books and don’t deserve all the flack they get… Frank definitely told Brian the ending and people can’t except that fact. More people need to give these books a fair shot and stop being a sheep.
I'd want you to cover it in whatever way will feature the most facepalm noises possible.
Ugly and juvenile ≠ entertaining.