@@skywatcheradept Duncan Idaho is one of the most fascinating characters to me personally. I mean leto the second kind of treats him like a favorite dog that he just refuses to let die.
Because he's not a dog. He's a person, who is being treated as if he's someone else's personal property, and watching how he deals with that as he slowly comes to realize that is the case, is to me an interesting character study. It really is a horrible fate, living the same life as a glorified slave, again and again, coming to realize your own servitude, coming to realize that you are a clone, that the original person you think of as yourself died thousands of years ago. Again and again
Yes, thank you! I can't understand how people just stop after Dune. Dune Messiah is a more satisfying stopping point and drives home Frank Herbert's message.
@@mikesbookreviews Paul mostly is a Skywalker type character. There is just an added under tone of how he knows the bad things that will happen as a result of him winning. As a ruler outside of the jihad it does seem that he's at least as good as the emperor and better than the Harkonnen's. But it also has the significant downside of the jihad. The story is about how the momentum of movements created by people to achieve their initial cause which may be good going out of control afterwards and being swept up in it (and so not truely having a choice afterwards). I've also only read the first 2 Dune books but the second felt much longer overall and very boring in parts. The style of material was a very natural sequel (in that X is the enemy etc) it just didn't feel like it was written as well. I've been meaning to go back to 3, but I needed to take a break after 2 felt like pulling teeth with some of it's writing.
It’s still my favorite sequel. It’s so unlike anything I have read to this day. I’d rank them God Emperor, Messiah, Heretics, Children, then Chapterhouse. I found that Heretics feels like the closest sequel to the first book. It’s had more action, less psychological musings, and the world building kicks into overdrive. I really wish we would’ve gotten that last book.
Dune through God Emperor of Dune are essential (IMO). The final two Heretics and Chapterhouse were the start of something new. There are strong ties to the earlier saga, but it’s really its own thing, so your mileage may vary. Yes Dune can be read as a standalone novel if you choose. If you’ve only read Dune, then you already know that it DOES have a proper ending. So it’s readers choice if you want to move on to the (incredible) books in the original quartet.
Heretics completely blew me away! I still need to read Chapterhouse, but my tactic has been to read the entire series through to get to the new book, so I have to reread the first five before I tackle the last. I've been savoring the series since 2010. (My earlier attempt to read Dune in the 80s failed)
@@dpo8bwee I just finished Chapterhouse and you are definitely in for a treat! After it ends, there is an afternote about his wife that was beautiful and I recommend reading it when you finish
100% 1-4 are mandatory reads. If you loved those then keep reading, otherwise you can jump off happy enough I guess, but honestly heretics is such a unique and interesting read.
Book 1 cannot standalone imo. The ending is too abrupt. Messiah has a much more succinct ending though. Idk who would wanna stop after reading book 1 though, knowing the story continues. It's like only reading the Fellowship of the Ring.
@@samvalentine9243 Dune is great as a trilogy ending on COD. For me COD ending with enough left over that I felt GEOD was required. I can see it not being for everyone, but I would recommend anyone interested in reading the series to at minimum finish up until COD and they really should give GEOD a shot. I think it wrappped things up very nicely. I'm still going through the series myself, so I'm withholding judgement on Heretics. I will say that that it's not holding my attention anywhere near as well as the first four, but in fairness the first four books of Dune are some of the absolute best Scifi I have ever read. I'm dreading the cutoff of Chapterhouse since I understand it ends pretty abruptly and I don't know if I want to read the other 6 books by Brian and KJA to get a glimpse of the real ending.
I read all 6 of Frank's books and I was conflicted on my feelings for CoD & GEoD at first. However I've grown to love all 6. I think Heretics & Chapterhouse are underrated. Miles Teg is a bad@$$.
@@hunterkat I disagree. The message from Leto II left for the Bene Gesserit in the future was pretty epic. There is some cool stuff in the books if you are willing to let go of the past.
@@dustinneely I’m allowed to have my own opinion, and my opinion is that the sexual imprinting stuff was ridiculous and I did not like the other group like the Bene Gesserit with their alternate spice, I thought their motivations were hard to read at best- I don’t even remember what they were supposed to be doing, except trying to take over planets with sexual imprinting which as I said is ridiculous. I also don’t know why Duncan Idaho had to be brought back so many times, he should’ve stopped being a character after God Emperor. Miles Teg was the only interesting part of it, and the rest was either tedious or extremely ridiculous. I don’t mind weird, I read and enjoyed Children of Dune and God Emperor. But there’s definitely a limit. I did like the plot line of spice being scarce and trying to recreate Arrakis. I’m not saying they’re irredeemably bad or anything. I just don’t care for them, even with some good elements.
Dune is one of my favorite books I’ve ever read. Yet God Emperor of Dune remains strong in my mind. The questions it asks, the things we ponder on, the reflections of past events. Damn… God Emperor may not be my favorite but it was a book that truly left an impression on me for the rest of my life. 🤯
I just watched Brian Lee Durfee's video yesterday praising House Harkkonen. Things are subjective, I guess. I know Kevin J Anderson wrote many of those Star Wars EU books. I agree that Messiah and Children should be read together.
I've read all 6. Here's my takeaway with the sequels. Messiah - Slower, but thought provoking. Its also short, so you're not having to deal with nearly 500 pages of ideas. Children - Extremely fascinating. I liked the descriptions of prescience, ancestral memory, the reveals of the golden path, the preacher, all that stuff. God Emperor - I still liked it, especially when it delved into Leto's psychology and sacrifice, and the occational bomb of political statements. It was a bit slower though, and this is probably the furthest I'll go for rereads. Heretics - It was interesting at the beginning, though the story dragged a TON. It wouldve probably been better if it focussed more on Sheeana and ghola Duncan as opposed to the super beings Odrade, Taraza, and Teg. Still, it had its moments, such as the revelation of Leto's message and Teg's awakening. Chapterhouse - I liked this one better than #5 because the Bene Gesserit actually take the Honored Matres more seriously, instead of constantly belittling them (even as they are being destroyed). I also thought the action here was more notable than Heretics (which confused me why people say Heretics has all the action), with the battle plan, and conflict that takes more than a chapter to end. Duncan's escape, as well as Daniel & Marty are cool too. I just wish Frank could've lived to make the 7th book. So overall, a great series, just that its unlikely I'll reread the whole thing in full.
I found Heretics and CH to be really entertaining. You get to learn a lot about the Bene Gesserit. Of all 6 books, my favorite was Children of Dune as the characters and plot lines were amazing.
I nicknamed Heretics and Chapterhouse the "Old Pervert Herbert" books. I didn't hate them, and my nickname is mostly a joke. But I tell everyone it's the story of multiple factions struggling for the breeding control of 2 youths. It's a little weird, but he WAS going somewhere with it. What Anderson and Brian did, as much as they swear it's based on notes, flies against the very idea that Frank stressee in all his books, including a massive misread of what the Butlarian Jihad is.
I think the way he writes about sex is better than most. It's done in a pragmatic way as it pertains to the plot, given that selective breeding is one of the most important themes in the entire saga. It's not like Game of Thrones where you're arguably reading erotica a lot of the time (purely based on what I've heard, I admit I have not read GoT).
@samvalentine9243 i agree, but it makes the back two novels kind of hard to sum up with feeling weird based on who is asking. And no, GoT is not heavy erotica, at least not the first 3 books. There is some but its as prolific as others claim.
@@Surllio I know what you mean. I think once you're 3 books into the series though the sexual stuff is not going to shock you. I mean, there are allusions to the Baron's 'boy toys' in the first book lol. And you learn about the BG's plans to breed Paul and Alia in Messiah. Good to hear about GoT. I didn't mean that the entirety of the books were erotica or anything, just some of the sexual scenes based on what people have told me. I still plan to read the books, since I got them as a gift.
I think my favorite was Children of Dune, it felt tighter and more precise, it explored a lot of the same themes as the first book but expanded upon to the nth degree. I liked God emperor and appreciate its weirdness but after Children I didnt think it was THAT weird, but I'll say God Emperor was the one I struggled through because it didn't have the same level of suspense that the others had.
I loved the Dune books, so much so that I did read the KJA/BH books all because I wanted to keep inhabiting the universe. It was not awesome. The completely retroactively changed the end of chapter house to give us a cardboard thin plot with a feud ex machine ending that was a gross disappointment.
My humble opinion is that Dune is a great stand alone story, Kind’ve like what a New Hope is to Star Wars. I definitely agree that one needs to treat Dune Messiah and Children of Dune as one book. I think that both are great. At this present time I’ve only read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune once, but plan on reading them again. I first read the Dune trilogy as one huge paperback format (The Great Dune Trilogy), although once I got it was a bit overwhelming at first because of the physical size of the book, it did though give me the opportunity to literally turn the page over to start C.O.D as soon as I finished D.M, which may have helped my reading experience. I do also own each book as seperate paperbacks also now as well as the ACE hardback special editions of the trilogy, because I love the series so much. One could end it after C.O.D, but I would also encourage to read God Empereror of Dune if you’ve got that far to explore the Golden Path more, though it does get weirder. The Heretics and Chapterhouse books I’m really glad I read and own. I thought they were good also, probably not as strong as the first 3/4, but maybe that’s because I’m more attached to the characters in those books. Though Miles Teg I thought was really cool, especially one particular scene action wise was great! Frank Herbert definitely took a risk at the end of Heretics that I thought was an interesting one to explore.
1 Dune 2 Chapterhouse 3 Messiah 4 God Emperor 5 Heretics 6 Children Thats my ranking. I think all the different movies, the show, etc have propped up my love for the original. Not sure why children didnt capture me as much, but i finished Chapterhouse a couple months ago and loved it.
I hope one day you may reread Heretics and Chapterhouse, because like you said with Paul and books 2 and 3 and how important they are to know the characters and it's motivations, Leto II does not end at book 4. Also I am a little biased since Heretics is my favourite dune book even as a standalone, without Chapterhouse, and I hope one day to watch it as a cyberpunk tv or streaming series.
I read the the six. The sequels were really good for me but I can understand how they feel. Personally I like God Emperor of Dune best. It felt like it was the answer to the main issue of the series. First time I read them I viewed Paul as the hero. But as I recently started reading again and saw all the interviews gave me a different perspective. The Dune books are books that you need to read a few times to catch more of the ideas.
If you’ve read Hyperion, which I know you have, something about books 5 and 6 in the Dune Saga are reminiscent of Dan Simmons ideas surrounding the Shrike and that whole slowing down time effect/perception. It seems like Herbert was way ahead of his time and offered all of today’s best ideas which inevitably made themselves into movies. Herbert had an incredible mind.
@@EricMcLuen Fall at least wrapped things up and provided explanations for everything...then he ruined it in the Endymion books with retconning that makes Fall of Hyperion make no sense.
I personally still really enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse, although quite a bit less than books 1-4. I thought Teg was awesome but the main attraction to me was getting a lot more of the bene gesserit which is one of my favorite things about the entire series! Overall, I think stopping after Messiah, Children, or God Emperor are all very reasonable recommendations for people. To me, God Emperor feels like the most complete ending to the story, but it's definitely not something everyone will enjoy.
God Emperor is by far my favourite Dune novel. Then Chapterhouse, Dune, Heretics, of Dune, Dune Messiah and far behind Children of Dune. I never really liked that one. The Atreides story is not over after God Emperor. Miles Teg is Atreides. Darwi Odrade is Atreides. And it was clear that the Enemy was the Face Dancers... not the bloody thinking machines.
"Not the bloody thinking machines" I doubt that the thinking machines coming back would be handled the way Brian Herbert did it, but if you think Frank was not also going in that direction, you might want to give God Emperor a re-read. Siona and Leto have a prescient vision of hunter machines when Siona is tripping balls.
I was really getting into Herbert's prose, the way he wrote was very evocative. I love books that aren't mysteries per se, but that have a lot of mysteries that slowly unfold and these books are great for that. A true shame he passed before writing many more books in the series. What Brian Herbert did was like watching a great painter's kid doing finger painting, just an absolute waste of time.
Very unpopular opinion but I wasn’t a big fan of Dune! However i’ve loved the movies, and now that I know that a Dune Messiah movie has been greenlit, I plan on picking it up. Excited to give the series another chance!
Just finished Dune and Dune Messiah due to me also loving the movies. And honestly, dune is an okayish book, Messiah sucks for 75%, although I liked the ending.
Just finished Dune and Dune Messiah due to me also loving the movies. And honestly, dune is an okayish book, Messiah straight out sucks for 75%. Admittedly, I liked the ending of messiah.
Just finished Dune and Dune Messiah due to me also loving the movies. And honestly, dune is an okayish book, Messiah straight out sucks for 75%. Admittedly, I liked the ending of messiah.
Heretics and Chapterhouse are my favorites of the series because I love the Bene Gesserit. Comparing them to the Aes Sedai is how my friend got me to read The Wheel of Time.
I have read Dune three times now which felt necessary to fully understand it for me. Dune Messiah i was initially turned off by but im glad i made myself keep going because that ending was perfect! Currently reading Children of Dune and am loving the characters so far! I plan to finish God Emperor next and stop there. In the first two books Alia was definitely my favorite character! Who is yours?
I haven't read the third book yet. But after reading 1 and 2, I think book 2 is actually more of what I was wanting and hoping for from this series. Heavy is the head that holds the crown. I'm excited to start 3 soon!
I myself stopped at God Emperor, which I found to be a bit of a slog. I am happy stopping there as the conclusion of The Golden Path. I read the plot summaries of the last two books and they sound so utterly distant from the original story. It just doesn't interest me with the original characters all gone (not counting the gholas). I think the first 3 books worked better as a conclusive trilogy, but Leto's transformation makes God Emperor required reading even though I wasn't a huge fan of it.
As someone who's always wanted to read dune (but has heard that the sequels weren't very good) this video was exactly what I needed. Will be reading at least the first 4 now
I never read past God Emperor myself because it was just getting way too weird and, like you said, not what I had expected. Good to hear that, apparently, I haven't missed much by ignoring the last two.
I read the first 3 books around the time the first Denis V film came out. Loved all 3 and have been interested but warned about continuing. I might get 4 and go back through then see how I feel. Thanks for the recommendation
Just read them. It's worth it. I heard the same stuff you prob did, that it's 'out there' and 'weird.' That makes it sound like there's some huge tonal shift something, which there isn't. It's all very cohesive and incredibly interesting.
I personally enjoyed the heck out of Messiah and Children of Dune, with CoD taking the lead in preference by a nose. I am currently reading God Emperor and really struggling to stay engaged with it. The only thing that is keeping me going is my reading goal for the year, and finishing out the series. I am leaving an open mind for the second half of the six-book series, but it is something to be desired so far.
I liked all the original Frank Herbert books. Children of Dune might be my favorite in the series (sacrilege I know). My first read of God Emperor was hard and I didn't really get it but when I was a little older and read it again it blew me away. It can be a challenging book because it's a lot of inner monologue but the things he hits on regarding long term societal or civilization projects, which we rarely think about, is amazing and it's become one of my favorite books of all time. I agree the last two by his son are pretty bad but I was still glad I read them just to see how the story concluded.
I agree with your take on the first four Dune novels, but also liked 'Heretics of Dune' and 'Chapterhouse Dune' more than you apparently did. I kind of liked the Honored Matres and their inversion of Bene Gesserit disciplines. Alas, 'Chapterhouse Dune' didn't exactly end on a cliffhanger, but it felt woefully... incomplete. I wish Frank Herbert had managed to wrap up the Honored Matres story. I also generally agree that the books by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson aren't in the same league as Frank Herbert's original series-- and I haven't read them all-- but I quite liked 'Paul of Dune.' I think 'Paul of Dune' is worth reading between 'Dune' and 'Dune Messiah,' with the understanding that it doesn't live up to either of those novels, because I do think it adds to the overall setting.
I think the problem is that the things I fell in love with when it came to dune where not necessarily the things that the author was the most interested in, and knowing what happened in the later books actually diminished my enjoyment of the original. I didnt spoil myself on purpose. Like, I figured things would end really poorly for Paul, but I was personally mostly interested in the political intrigue and the societies and cultural institutions. I personally did not find his philosophical discussions as profound as he himself found it. Especially from the perspective of political science. Most of it is very entry level theorizing described with very flowery and self-important language. And the later books seemingly contain more and more of that. I think thats probably why some people say the later books are "bad". They focus shifts/becomes more apparent. I enjoyed Dune Messiah and Children of Dune on an intellectual level, but I wasnt emotionally invested by that point. God emperor dune is kind of the opposite in that I actually was emotionally invested again, but I stopped being intellectually invested as I kind of stopped looking at him as a highly intelligent author, I know that sounds mean but it is what it is.
I totally agree. Dune 1 - for every sf fans. Dune 2/3 - for Dune fans. Dune 4/5/6 - for Dune nerds. I personally recommend to stop at the 3rd or 4th book as well.
I just read Dune for the first time today and I LOOOVED IT! Thank you so much for this video. I also heard that the other books suck and I almost didn't pick them up. But now, I'll start reading Messiah tonight. Already loaded on my phone.
Dune Messiah is my favourite of the sequels. I think Heretics and Chapterhouse (if finished) could of been a great sequel trilogy to Paul/Leto's golden path story. Although they are a continuation, and important in Herberts vision they are almost like a spinoff series.
So I watched this review before I started any of the Dune books, I just re-watched it after finishing God Emperor and it makes so much more sense now and I have to agree with him on just about everything. He said I’m not sure if I’m going to read more after this, but I’m definitely going to reread the series with the knowledge gain from God Emperor and I think that will completely change book one. Just thoughts before I dig back in
I'm so curious about this, but will wait to watch this after I watch Dune Messiah. Then either hope the rest gets adapted, or continue to never care to read the books, but I appreciate every info I get from the ones who have read it. You included. Thank you.
"Challenging the reader" is a lost art. It really saddens me that our culture has lost an appreciation for it. My favorite book of all time would have to be Lord of the Rings. And there are parts in that book that have been painfully dull for me. But as I've read and reread it, I've come to realize they aren't by accident. Tolkien is intentional in what he's doing. If a reader is willing to put in the work, he will be rewarded.
I read all Herbert books a few years back. 1-4 are great, 5 and 6 where a slow, slow slog until the end of them both where something did happen. My favorites are 3-4, really like the story about the god emperor and what he goes through.
As somebody who likes the world building and geopolitical lore side of dune more than the philosophical insights of Herbert, all of the books after Children are a travesty.
Thank you, very clear, helped me solidify that I want to read the first 3 at least if not 4. I will say that it is possible for extra material to work. I attribute my love for Star Wars more to the Knights of the Old Republic I played as a kid. Like you said is the story needs to be compelling.
I’ll be reading Messiah and children this year. Very excited to continue. I was planning on stopping after that but I’ll probably read God emperor on your recommendation to complete the golden path!
I agree with you. Loved the trilogy, liked God Emperor and was super confused with the last two. I tell everyone if they've only seen the movie they might not like the book since the movies were made from the throw away lines in the book. I feel if they do another movie it will be about the Jihad and they'll skim over the rest of the book. What I never saw coming is the guy who is the connecting character, no spoilers, to all the books. That was kind of wild to me. If he is the next one at least people love the actor and would love seeing him some more. The way he'll be portrayed if they stick to the book, considering who it is, might make some people very confused.
I read Dune many years ago and never got around to the sequels. About 6 years ago, I re-read Dune and then read Messiah and Children but I've had God Emperor sat on my shelf for a few years now but I haven't had the urge to read it yet..... maybe soon
I’m so very glad to see this video! I adore Messiah and Children though they are a bit wonky and really should be reread. I plan on re listening to God Emperor soon. I think these books are the ones that make the series special and define the themes Frank set up in the original book. I believe Frank took some inspiration, amongst many other things, Greek tragedies particularly the Oresteia, with the Atreides being descended from Agamemnon. Mike, I know you like to remain as positive as possible for which you have my respect. But would you consider doing a little short on why you don’t like the toilet paper books? Brian Herbert as a person irritated me because he whines. So I’m not buying them. But you allusions to the distain you feel interests me. Happy reading!
I personally consider them a tad higher quality than their reputation suggests, but all of their faults Mike described accurately. Its probably more fair to compare them to... say... The Drizzit Saga to LOTR. They're fun candy but they absolutely dont belong in Dune, for a plethora of thematic, tonal, continuity, and mechanical issues with the main saga, and the shift is so radical its poverty insulting and rightly so.
Thanks for the tips! 😊👍I'm a fan of "Hero's Journey" stories, so I guess the end of book 1 would be my jumping off point if I ever get around to reading it.
The sequels are dense as far as content, not length. The Golden Path is still something I still don’t completely understand, however, I agree that books 1-3 and 4 as an epilogue are essential. I enjoyed Heretics and am currently on Chapterhouse.
I would hardly call the original ones page turners, to be frank. I am not a fan of Frank Herbert's writing style. He seems like he was quite a fascinating accomplished fellow though, outside of his writing.
I read all 6 books when I was a teenager as well. I remember struggling with all of them-especially the first 4 books. There is ALOT of philosophy in them that went way over my head at that age (and still does to be honest). I agree with Mike that Dune Messiah and Children of Dune should be read together and I feel are actually 1 whole book. I still enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse and even though they are quite different than the other 4 books Frank still wrote them and I attribute the differences to age and time (I think he wrote Chapterhouse about 20 years after Dune). People change in 20 years. They are still good books. I will take exception to Mike's thoughts on Brian's and MJA's prequels and sequels. I enjoy them very much. I don't consider them "bastardizations" of the original. I think they give a more complete story of the Dune Universe. In my opinion they do tend to be a little long-winded but the stories are interesting and still thought-provoking. Albeit not as much so as with Frank's books. I haven't read all of the sequels but what I have I've enjoyed very much. Some might consider them "fan fiction" but I do not. I highly suggest fans of Frank's works to read the prequels and sequels. Sure they're written in a different style (different writers have different styles after all) but they doesn't mean they aren't well-written and a lot of fun to read.
@@mikesbookreviews I'm not sure. To be honest, a few years ago (even before I knew they were remaking "Dune" I reread Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune. I used to have all 6 books but somehow lost Heretics and Chapterhouse. It would be interesting reread those now. As I said in my original comment, Frank wrote those books approximately 20 years after "Dune" so even though there was a lot of the same ideas/themes from the original book he matured as a writer and probably in his thoughts on different subjects so those later books had a different tone to them. Much more mentally digestible in my recollection. By the way, I've also read the "Pandora Sequence" books and you can see inklings of "Dune" in there but they are far inferior (even though they were done after "Dune). They were a slog for me and I almost didn't finish them. Not because dense themes but because of bad writing.
Hm, I don't think the Golden path is concluded in the 4th book. As I see it, the golden path continues and all the events of Heretics and Chapterhouse are direct consequences of the golden path (and the stupidity of Bene Gesserit, too). Also, the Atreides family lives on - Miles Teg, Darwi Odrade are both Atreides. And we can count Duncan Idaho as Atreides too, who is revived as ghola again and again and again...
My buddies and I typically make the split after Messiah. Messiah and Chapterhouse both have the most concrete endings in the series, even if the golden path never resolves, and if you start from Children you might as well stick around for Chapterhouse (which is a fantastic book, if nowhere the tier of GE or D1.) The third arc (heretics/Chapterhouse) is pretty self contained in those two books, so they dont leave their own story open, and they develop and flesh out a lot of the golden path, without much its difficult to fully understand GE.
I can see why some don't like the story, but it was a perfect fit for me after having read some other serious sci-fi, including a number of P. K. Dick's short stories before I got to Dune. I was also in my early teens at the time. It's still my second favorite book series after Wheel of Time and just above Lord of the Rings.
I enjoyed Dune. Read it before the movie but I thought the characters were weak. Recently finished Messiah and liked where it went and am interested in reading children but I don't think I'll read it anytime soon. I already know the craziness that happens in the sequels and part of me wants to read God Emperor to see how it all plays out. And yeah I think I'll stop there, especially reading that Herbert wanted Heretics to be the start of a new trilogy and it sadly didn't get concluded by him.
I like Dune Messiah and God Emperor of Dune more than Dune, particularly the latter which is one of my favorite novels. The only Dune sequel that I have some problems with is Children of Dune, which I just feel needs to be tightened up in places, specifically Leto's odyssey. I like how weird stuff gets after the Scattering with the Honored Matres, Futars, Miles Teg, etc (if far future epic SF doesn't occasionally make you uncomfortable, it's not trying very hard imo) and while I would've liked to see where Frank Herbert was going with the story, I've come to see Chapterhouse as a fine ending.
Thanks for making this! I read Dune before the Part1 came out and loved both the book and the movie. Then i decided earlier this week that i really want to reread Dune and this video convinced me to make reading Dune Messiah a priority as well as to see Part 2. I just got back from the movie and I'm HYPED to read at least the 4 books!🎉🎉
Dune Messiah was my favorite. I stopped after children of dune because I saw that shit gets weird after that. I could have muscled my way though it but since Frank Herbert died before finishing the series, I chose to stop at children and am satisfied with that
I came to this video thinking “Wow, someone is actually going to defend the books his son wrote, this should be interesting.” Seriously, who says the official sequels suck? God Emperor is dynamite.
Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars(Barsoom) series influence all Sci fi after it, especially Star Wars, Flash Gordon,writers like Jack Vance, Jack McDevitt, Asimov, Ruocchio, Greg Bear, E.C Tubb etc, etc.
After seeing both movies, I felt the original "Dune" novel to end even *more* abruptly and weird and I cannot understand why people feel that is a book that can stand on its own. So I read "Messiah" after it and *now* it feels like a complete story. It read like an epilogue to me. Then I read "Children of Dune" the past week and.. yeah.. kinda wish I didn't. It was super philosophical and not really easy to get through. I had to search a lot on Wiki pages to the point it became a little exhausting. Then I found out that in the 4th book there is a huge timejump so you don't even know what happens to some characters like Stilgar / Jessica etc.. so I think I'm good for now with the original 3 books. Currently reading the prequel books, and while they almost read like YA books sometimes, they are definitely more relaxing and less challenging texts to go through. Some people might like the dense and philosophical reads but I get enough of those in my university classes already.
Of all the Dune sequels, "God Emperor" was my favorite just for the Leto sandworm hybrid alone (I mean, who doesn't want to wear a sandworm costume at comic con?), but after reading "Dune: House Atreides" (which I kinda liked) by Brian, I had to stop because enough is enough in the Dune universe. I'm not surprised to hear fans hate on the Brian Herbert books, because I felt the franchise went south with "Heretic" and "Chapterhouse". If I recall, wasn't Arrakis destroyed at the end of "Heretics"? What's the point of continuing the franchise if there's no Arrakis? I think had Frank lived, he should've stopped after "God Emperor" and moved on to other things.
I read Dune for the first time when I was 13 (1983) so I can really relate to a lot of your story. I was really surprised by how much I loved and gobbled up Heretics and Chapterhouse. God Emperor took a few tries. In the end I went back and read the Brian/Anderson Prelude books, which I actually enjoyed, although they pale in comparison to Dune. Then, I just kept going all the way through Chapterhouse. Didn't make it past page 1 of the other Brian Herbert stuff that followed. Have you picked up any other of Frank Herbert's work? I enjoyed Soul Catcher. I'm about to watch Dune 2, and only recently saw Dune 1, and gearing up to read them all again, it's been about 15 years.
I felt depressed at the end of Chapterhouse partly because there wasn't going to ever be any more. It felt like stopping a book with 2 chapters to go. Wouldn't it be amazing if a Ghola of Frank could continue the story.
Would you consider making a video just explaining why the Brian Herbert books are considered so controversial and polarizing to the fanbase? I'm genuinely curious what the deal is with them, speaking as an outsider to the series.
It really wouldn’t take a full video. He isn’t a good writer, has no respect for the rules his father set up, and he has constant continuity errors. It was just a case of a paycheck for him. Still is.
@@mikesbookreviews I agree that the Brian and Kevin books are just estate authorized fan fiction. Poetry (Frank) vs. prose (Brian). Singing (Frank) vs. local news report or book report (Brian). I did give them a chance, though. They continued to disappoint with no reason to expect improvement.
I actually opened the video wanting to understand if there is anything worth reading in the Brian Herbert books. "sequels to Dune" for me means anything coming after the first 6 books. It feels incredible to me that the progressive evolution and deconstruction of ideas in Dune in the six books could be taken separately.
I would go further and say the series doesn't even start to get mind-blowing until CoD. Reading only the first book is like only reading The Hobbit. The scope of the thing expands so much, and we see how Other Memory really works. I think we need to see more of that. Other memory is really important to the story, and the movies haven't really conveyed that to me. People think Paul and Jessica just woke up with blue eyes and then yelled a lot. Still awesome movie though.
I just finished reading the first trilogy and despite my vague interest in reading books and this franchise I’ve decided to just stick with the first trilogy. Still pretty good recommendation, and how the books are better than the movies. Someday if I get a chance I’ll check out the 2000 3 part miniseries as well as the sequel from 2003.
I’m a huge dune fan and I definitely believe people should read messiah, Children and god emperor but i also think that god emperor is a good stopping point. After that book the series felt different to me and the fall of Leto ii ended it on a hopeful note.
I feel like Dune Messiah is very natural sequel of Dune, and everything after is not necessary, though I've stopped after GEOD. But I can't deny that some of the most important Frank Herbert's ideas he put in these books.
I really enjoyed Children of Dune because it does feel like the proper sequel to the original. It’s got the action and adventure of the original but it’s Paul’s kids this time, and Leto II is like a more extreme/worse Paul, and the Baron returns in a unique way as the villain. Most of the original characters are there but with a twist. It’s more fun than Messiah. And the ending is pretty clear what Leto II is going to do. Then God Emperor is good but it’s definitely a book for people who care more about the worldbuilding and philosophy than the story itself. I enjoyed it but I could have done without it. it’s the first book that feels very different from the original trilogy. Something I see people say is “only read Children if you plan on continuing to God Emperor” which is really disagree with. I like the way you put it: read Messiah and Children together for a more satisfying sequel experience. God Emperor is an interesting but ultimately unnecessary story in my opinion because you can infer enough about the Golden Path from its ending to know what the god emperor is going to do.
One of the things I don't like about the series in general is how certain characters feel underdeveloped for me, squandered even. I wanted more from Jessica, Irulan, Chani, Ghanima and the Fenrings (where the hell did they go lol), but for some reason, Frank Herbert didn't deliver that much imho. I haven't started God Emperor yet, but I'm curious to see if this trend is gonna be repeated there and beyond.
I actually think that book 5/Heretics of Dune could’ve been the perfect ending the franchise. I remember reading it for the first time and it completely re-contextualized the first 4 books. It was like the perfect end cap to the series. It was like books 1-3 were one end of a huge era and book 5 was the extreme endpoint of the other end of that era, with God Emperor being the kindof focal point or center of the whole franchise. Books 1-3 lead to that moment and book 5 was now leading away from that. Book 5 kindof has a an ending that could’ve acted as a series finale and it felt like that, book 6 didn’t. I sometimes think that if book 6 didn’t exist, then more people might see it this way. Book 6 isn’t the worst thing ever, I just think it’s story is kindof weird even for Dune standards and like you said, it leaves on an unsatisfying ending due to book 7 never happening.
Excellent video, Mike! I will finally read beyond Dune to at least Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. I'm not sure about crazy town . . . But never say never!
The main character of the Dune series is humanity itself and nothing less. I can't imagine not reading the first three, they tell the full story and are inseparable, imnsho. God Emperor was more of an acquired taste for me but I have come to treasure it. Put together, the first 4 books are one of the great achievements in all of literature, for the ideas and philosophy alone. Heretics and Chapterhouse are enjoyable but not "great". Btw, Paul is not a hero, nor an anti-hero. He's a human, meaning he's both, like we all are. Same with Leto II.
I think they are all worth reading. Frank Herbert definitely liked women, he had the Bene Gesserits and then later the Fish Talkers female army. There is a lot of odd things in these books but they are enjoyable to read. But if you like Dune, then the next 3 books, Messiah, Children and Emperor are all an essential continuation of that story. I was disappointed in Messiah of Dune, mostly because of what Paul does. And then the Children of Dune I'm disappointed in Jessica because she basically turns her back on everyone. The books by Frank Herberts son Brian are not as bad as some people make them out to be. But they do go off on some wild tangents and the prequels are just really new books that imagines the origins of the Dune universe.
I loved Messiah and God Emperor and to a lesser extent Children of Dune. I agree the Heretics and Chapterhouse are a step down, though I still think they're good. It's too bad we lost Frank Herbert and he was not able to write more. Cheers.
Dammit I have for years not read any books beyond God Emperor of Dune and just picked up Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse:dune a couple of days ago. Haven't start reading them yet but starting to regret the decision.
I might be wrong but Frank finished Heretics and Chapterhouse before he passed but the two books were supposed to be a new trilogy and he never finished the 7th book. Brian and Kevin ended up supplementing books 5 and 6 with Hunters and Sandworms of Dune.
I read dune when I was 14 as well. Then I reread again when I was 30 . I love dune . I tried to read messiah and was bored out of my mind . I don’t know why but I think I’m happy with Dune being a much more sci-fi version of stat wars . Again Dune was my favorite book from age 14 to 30 something lol.
Nobody show this video to Brian Herbert! 🤣 This video makes me happy because I generally recommend the first four and then stop, so I'm glad to have the same view as a lifelong fan of these books!
Basically I look at it this way. Paul is the main character of the first book, but the main character of the series is the planet arrakis itself.
The main character of the series is Duncan Idaho which is anticlimactic af.
@@skywatcheradept Duncan Idaho is one of the most fascinating characters to me personally. I mean leto the second kind of treats him like a favorite dog that he just refuses to let die.
@@ryhmetravila8085how is a favorite dog fascinating 😂
Because he's not a dog. He's a person, who is being treated as if he's someone else's personal property, and watching how he deals with that as he slowly comes to realize that is the case, is to me an interesting character study. It really is a horrible fate, living the same life as a glorified slave, again and again, coming to realize your own servitude, coming to realize that you are a clone, that the original person you think of as yourself died thousands of years ago. Again and again
Well said.
Dune Messiah is required reading, in my opinion.
Yes, thank you! I can't understand how people just stop after Dune. Dune Messiah is a more satisfying stopping point and drives home Frank Herbert's message.
@@TheSpotlessMind93 absolutely. I tell everyone that if you are going to read Dune, then you also need to read Messiah.
💯 - but I think it makes the message more complex and I can see some people liking the simpler good vs evil / hero’s journey interpretation
The more I see how many people think of Paul as a Luke Skywalker/Joseph Campbell archetype the more I start to think Messiah MUST be read.
@@mikesbookreviews Paul mostly is a Skywalker type character. There is just an added under tone of how he knows the bad things that will happen as a result of him winning. As a ruler outside of the jihad it does seem that he's at least as good as the emperor and better than the Harkonnen's. But it also has the significant downside of the jihad.
The story is about how the momentum of movements created by people to achieve their initial cause which may be good going out of control afterwards and being swept up in it (and so not truely having a choice afterwards).
I've also only read the first 2 Dune books but the second felt much longer overall and very boring in parts. The style of material was a very natural sequel (in that X is the enemy etc) it just didn't feel like it was written as well. I've been meaning to go back to 3, but I needed to take a break after 2 felt like pulling teeth with some of it's writing.
One of if not my favorite book of all time is a dune sequel. God emperor of dune is amazing
I really enjoyed that book
Folks seem to love it or hate it.
It’s still my favorite sequel. It’s so unlike anything I have read to this day. I’d rank them God Emperor, Messiah, Heretics, Children, then Chapterhouse. I found that Heretics feels like the closest sequel to the first book. It’s had more action, less psychological musings, and the world building kicks into overdrive. I really wish we would’ve gotten that last book.
God Emperor is where the science-fiction really starts.
Dune through God Emperor of Dune are essential (IMO). The final two Heretics and Chapterhouse were the start of something new. There are strong ties to the earlier saga, but it’s really its own thing, so your mileage may vary.
Yes Dune can be read as a standalone novel if you choose. If you’ve only read Dune, then you already know that it DOES have a proper ending. So it’s readers choice if you want to move on to the (incredible) books in the original quartet.
Heretics completely blew me away!
I still need to read Chapterhouse, but my tactic has been to read the entire series through to get to the new book, so I have to reread the first five before I tackle the last. I've been savoring the series since 2010. (My earlier attempt to read Dune in the 80s failed)
@@dpo8bwee I just finished Chapterhouse and you are definitely in for a treat! After it ends, there is an afternote about his wife that was beautiful and I recommend reading it when you finish
100% 1-4 are mandatory reads. If you loved those then keep reading, otherwise you can jump off happy enough I guess, but honestly heretics is such a unique and interesting read.
Book 1 cannot standalone imo. The ending is too abrupt. Messiah has a much more succinct ending though. Idk who would wanna stop after reading book 1 though, knowing the story continues. It's like only reading the Fellowship of the Ring.
@@samvalentine9243 Dune is great as a trilogy ending on COD. For me COD ending with enough left over that I felt GEOD was required. I can see it not being for everyone, but I would recommend anyone interested in reading the series to at minimum finish up until COD and they really should give GEOD a shot. I think it wrappped things up very nicely. I'm still going through the series myself, so I'm withholding judgement on Heretics. I will say that that it's not holding my attention anywhere near as well as the first four, but in fairness the first four books of Dune are some of the absolute best Scifi I have ever read. I'm dreading the cutoff of Chapterhouse since I understand it ends pretty abruptly and I don't know if I want to read the other 6 books by Brian and KJA to get a glimpse of the real ending.
Dune is my favorite book of all time also. When I read Messiah for the 1st time, I was surprised. The ending to Messiah was sad, but understandable.
I thought the ending of Children of Dune was much more bittersweet. Messiah's ending was kinda badass.
Book 4 was one of the most thought provoking books i ever read when i was a teenager, i always encourage new readers to at least read the first 4
I read all 6 of Frank's books and I was conflicted on my feelings for CoD & GEoD at first. However I've grown to love all 6. I think Heretics & Chapterhouse are underrated. Miles Teg is a bad@$$.
Miles Teg is the only good thing about Heretics and Chapterhouse
I've often thought I'm old enough now to try them again and maybe I'll feel differently. I just never have.
@@hunterkat I disagree. The message from Leto II left for the Bene Gesserit in the future was pretty epic. There is some cool stuff in the books if you are willing to let go of the past.
@@dustinneely I’m allowed to have my own opinion, and my opinion is that the sexual imprinting stuff was ridiculous and I did not like the other group like the Bene Gesserit with their alternate spice, I thought their motivations were hard to read at best- I don’t even remember what they were supposed to be doing, except trying to take over planets with sexual imprinting which as I said is ridiculous. I also don’t know why Duncan Idaho had to be brought back so many times, he should’ve stopped being a character after God Emperor. Miles Teg was the only interesting part of it, and the rest was either tedious or extremely ridiculous. I don’t mind weird, I read and enjoyed Children of Dune and God Emperor. But there’s definitely a limit. I did like the plot line of spice being scarce and trying to recreate Arrakis. I’m not saying they’re irredeemably bad or anything. I just don’t care for them, even with some good elements.
@@hunterkat I'm allowed to have my own opinion too.
Just finished Messiah this morning - first read since I was a teen and I really didn’t get it then …
Definitely works better with age and experience
Who says the Dune sequels suck??? They’re great!
Dune is one of my favorite books I’ve ever read. Yet God Emperor of Dune remains strong in my mind. The questions it asks, the things we ponder on, the reflections of past events. Damn… God Emperor may not be my favorite but it was a book that truly left an impression on me for the rest of my life. 🤯
I just watched Brian Lee Durfee's video yesterday praising House Harkkonen. Things are subjective, I guess. I know Kevin J Anderson wrote many of those Star Wars EU books. I agree that Messiah and Children should be read together.
I've read all 6. Here's my takeaway with the sequels.
Messiah - Slower, but thought provoking. Its also short, so you're not having to deal with nearly 500 pages of ideas.
Children - Extremely fascinating. I liked the descriptions of prescience, ancestral memory, the reveals of the golden path, the preacher, all that stuff.
God Emperor - I still liked it, especially when it delved into Leto's psychology and sacrifice, and the occational bomb of political statements. It was a bit slower though, and this is probably the furthest I'll go for rereads.
Heretics - It was interesting at the beginning, though the story dragged a TON. It wouldve probably been better if it focussed more on Sheeana and ghola Duncan as opposed to the super beings Odrade, Taraza, and Teg. Still, it had its moments, such as the revelation of Leto's message and Teg's awakening.
Chapterhouse - I liked this one better than #5 because the Bene Gesserit actually take the Honored Matres more seriously, instead of constantly belittling them (even as they are being destroyed). I also thought the action here was more notable than Heretics (which confused me why people say Heretics has all the action), with the battle plan, and conflict that takes more than a chapter to end. Duncan's escape, as well as Daniel & Marty are cool too. I just wish Frank could've lived to make the 7th book.
So overall, a great series, just that its unlikely I'll reread the whole thing in full.
I found Heretics and CH to be really entertaining. You get to learn a lot about the Bene Gesserit. Of all 6 books, my favorite was Children of Dune as the characters and plot lines were amazing.
I nicknamed Heretics and Chapterhouse the "Old Pervert Herbert" books. I didn't hate them, and my nickname is mostly a joke. But I tell everyone it's the story of multiple factions struggling for the breeding control of 2 youths. It's a little weird, but he WAS going somewhere with it. What Anderson and Brian did, as much as they swear it's based on notes, flies against the very idea that Frank stressee in all his books, including a massive misread of what the Butlarian Jihad is.
Yes, their attempt at concluding the story was extremely lame. Bringing back all the dead characters & then not doing much with them, very bad.
I think the way he writes about sex is better than most. It's done in a pragmatic way as it pertains to the plot, given that selective breeding is one of the most important themes in the entire saga. It's not like Game of Thrones where you're arguably reading erotica a lot of the time (purely based on what I've heard, I admit I have not read GoT).
@samvalentine9243 i agree, but it makes the back two novels kind of hard to sum up with feeling weird based on who is asking.
And no, GoT is not heavy erotica, at least not the first 3 books. There is some but its as prolific as others claim.
@@Surllio I know what you mean. I think once you're 3 books into the series though the sexual stuff is not going to shock you. I mean, there are allusions to the Baron's 'boy toys' in the first book lol. And you learn about the BG's plans to breed Paul and Alia in Messiah.
Good to hear about GoT. I didn't mean that the entirety of the books were erotica or anything, just some of the sexual scenes based on what people have told me. I still plan to read the books, since I got them as a gift.
I think my favorite was Children of Dune, it felt tighter and more precise, it explored a lot of the same themes as the first book but expanded upon to the nth degree. I liked God emperor and appreciate its weirdness but after Children I didnt think it was THAT weird, but I'll say God Emperor was the one I struggled through because it didn't have the same level of suspense that the others had.
I loved the Dune books, so much so that I did read the KJA/BH books all because I wanted to keep inhabiting the universe. It was not awesome. The completely retroactively changed the end of chapter house to give us a cardboard thin plot with a feud ex machine ending that was a gross disappointment.
Ok, how does auto correct change deus to feud?
I read about 70 pages into Hunters of Dune and got so mad. I still can't believe I finished that damn book.
My humble opinion is that Dune is a great stand alone story, Kind’ve like what a New Hope is to Star Wars. I definitely agree that one needs to treat Dune Messiah and Children of Dune as one book. I think that both are great.
At this present time I’ve only read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune once, but plan on reading them again. I first read the Dune trilogy as one huge paperback format (The Great Dune Trilogy), although once I got it was a bit overwhelming at first because of the physical size of the book, it did though give me the opportunity to literally turn the page over to start C.O.D as soon as I finished D.M, which may have helped my reading experience. I do also own each book as seperate paperbacks also now as well as the ACE hardback special editions of the trilogy, because I love the series so much.
One could end it after C.O.D, but I would also encourage to read God Empereror of Dune if you’ve got that far to explore the Golden Path more, though it does get weirder.
The Heretics and Chapterhouse books I’m really glad I read and own. I thought they were good also, probably not as strong as the first 3/4, but maybe that’s because I’m more attached to the characters in those books. Though Miles Teg I thought was really cool, especially one particular scene action wise was great! Frank Herbert definitely took a risk at the end of Heretics that I thought was an interesting one to explore.
1 Dune
2 Chapterhouse
3 Messiah
4 God Emperor
5 Heretics
6 Children
Thats my ranking. I think all the different movies, the show, etc have propped up my love for the original. Not sure why children didnt capture me as much, but i finished Chapterhouse a couple months ago and loved it.
I hope one day you may reread Heretics and Chapterhouse, because like you said with Paul and books 2 and 3 and how important they are to know the characters and it's motivations, Leto II does not end at book 4. Also I am a little biased since Heretics is my favourite dune book even as a standalone, without Chapterhouse, and I hope one day to watch it as a cyberpunk tv or streaming series.
I read the the six. The sequels were really good for me but I can understand how they feel. Personally I like God Emperor of Dune best. It felt like it was the answer to the main issue of the series. First time I read them I viewed Paul as the hero. But as I recently started reading again and saw all the interviews gave me a different perspective. The Dune books are books that you need to read a few times to catch more of the ideas.
If you’ve read Hyperion, which I know you have, something about books 5 and 6 in the Dune Saga are reminiscent of Dan Simmons ideas surrounding the Shrike and that whole slowing down time effect/perception. It seems like Herbert was way ahead of his time and offered all of today’s best ideas which inevitably made themselves into movies. Herbert had an incredible mind.
I might have enjoyed Fall of Hyperion more if half of it was just a condensed version of the the later Dune Books.
@@EricMcLuen Fall at least wrapped things up and provided explanations for everything...then he ruined it in the Endymion books with retconning that makes Fall of Hyperion make no sense.
I personally still really enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse, although quite a bit less than books 1-4. I thought Teg was awesome but the main attraction to me was getting a lot more of the bene gesserit which is one of my favorite things about the entire series!
Overall, I think stopping after Messiah, Children, or God Emperor are all very reasonable recommendations for people. To me, God Emperor feels like the most complete ending to the story, but it's definitely not something everyone will enjoy.
God Emperor is by far my favourite Dune novel. Then Chapterhouse, Dune, Heretics, of Dune, Dune Messiah and far behind Children of Dune. I never really liked that one. The Atreides story is not over after God Emperor. Miles Teg is Atreides. Darwi Odrade is Atreides. And it was clear that the Enemy was the Face Dancers... not the bloody thinking machines.
Fair enough.
"Not the bloody thinking machines"
I doubt that the thinking machines coming back would be handled the way Brian Herbert did it, but if you think Frank was not also going in that direction, you might want to give God Emperor a re-read. Siona and Leto have a prescient vision of hunter machines when Siona is tripping balls.
I was really getting into Herbert's prose, the way he wrote was very evocative. I love books that aren't mysteries per se, but that have a lot of mysteries that slowly unfold and these books are great for that. A true shame he passed before writing many more books in the series.
What Brian Herbert did was like watching a great painter's kid doing finger painting, just an absolute waste of time.
Very unpopular opinion but I wasn’t a big fan of Dune! However i’ve loved the movies, and now that I know that a Dune Messiah movie has been greenlit, I plan on picking it up. Excited to give the series another chance!
Just finished Dune and Dune Messiah due to me also loving the movies.
And honestly, dune is an okayish book, Messiah sucks for 75%, although I liked the ending.
Just finished Dune and Dune Messiah due to me also loving the movies.
And honestly, dune is an okayish book, Messiah straight out sucks for 75%. Admittedly, I liked the ending of messiah.
Just finished Dune and Dune Messiah due to me also loving the movies.
And honestly, dune is an okayish book, Messiah straight out sucks for 75%. Admittedly, I liked the ending of messiah.
Heretics and Chapterhouse are my favorites of the series because I love the Bene Gesserit. Comparing them to the Aes Sedai is how my friend got me to read The Wheel of Time.
I loved the way the Bene Gesserit Grew and learned purpose. Miles Teg and Darwi Odrade were among my top favorite characters.
I have read Dune three times now which felt necessary to fully understand it for me.
Dune Messiah i was initially turned off by but im glad i made myself keep going because that ending was perfect!
Currently reading Children of Dune and am loving the characters so far! I plan to finish God Emperor next and stop there.
In the first two books Alia was definitely my favorite character!
Who is yours?
I've read the original 13 times and I pick up new things each trip.
I haven't read the third book yet. But after reading 1 and 2, I think book 2 is actually more of what I was wanting and hoping for from this series. Heavy is the head that holds the crown. I'm excited to start 3 soon!
I myself stopped at God Emperor, which I found to be a bit of a slog. I am happy stopping there as the conclusion of The Golden Path. I read the plot summaries of the last two books and they sound so utterly distant from the original story. It just doesn't interest me with the original characters all gone (not counting the gholas).
I think the first 3 books worked better as a conclusive trilogy, but Leto's transformation makes God Emperor required reading even though I wasn't a huge fan of it.
It's definitely the best stopping point.
As someone who's always wanted to read dune (but has heard that the sequels weren't very good) this video was exactly what I needed. Will be reading at least the first 4 now
I never read past God Emperor myself because it was just getting way too weird and, like you said, not what I had expected. Good to hear that, apparently, I haven't missed much by ignoring the last two.
It becomes a more standard space opera in book 5, so the super-weirdness of God Emperor or Dune ends with that book.
Mike I love your channel! Book tube is blessed to have you
Wow, thanks so much!
Also, I'm so glad there's Dune fans out there who feel the same way about the BH/KJA fan fiction.
I read the first 3 books around the time the first Denis V film came out. Loved all 3 and have been interested but warned about continuing. I might get 4 and go back through then see how I feel. Thanks for the recommendation
My pleasure!
Just read them. It's worth it. I heard the same stuff you prob did, that it's 'out there' and 'weird.' That makes it sound like there's some huge tonal shift something, which there isn't. It's all very cohesive and incredibly interesting.
I personally enjoyed the heck out of Messiah and Children of Dune, with CoD taking the lead in preference by a nose. I am currently reading God Emperor and really struggling to stay engaged with it. The only thing that is keeping me going is my reading goal for the year, and finishing out the series. I am leaving an open mind for the second half of the six-book series, but it is something to be desired so far.
I like Brian/KevinJ works on Dune😅. But I do love more GodEmperor,Heretics and Chapterhouse. For me, those last 3 books are fantastic! 😅
no need to sweat after every sentence, it'll be alright😂
I liked all the original Frank Herbert books. Children of Dune might be my favorite in the series (sacrilege I know). My first read of God Emperor was hard and I didn't really get it but when I was a little older and read it again it blew me away. It can be a challenging book because it's a lot of inner monologue but the things he hits on regarding long term societal or civilization projects, which we rarely think about, is amazing and it's become one of my favorite books of all time. I agree the last two by his son are pretty bad but I was still glad I read them just to see how the story concluded.
I agree with your take on the first four Dune novels, but also liked 'Heretics of Dune' and 'Chapterhouse Dune' more than you apparently did. I kind of liked the Honored Matres and their inversion of Bene Gesserit disciplines. Alas, 'Chapterhouse Dune' didn't exactly end on a cliffhanger, but it felt woefully... incomplete. I wish Frank Herbert had managed to wrap up the Honored Matres story. I also generally agree that the books by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson aren't in the same league as Frank Herbert's original series-- and I haven't read them all-- but I quite liked 'Paul of Dune.' I think 'Paul of Dune' is worth reading between 'Dune' and 'Dune Messiah,' with the understanding that it doesn't live up to either of those novels, because I do think it adds to the overall setting.
I think the problem is that the things I fell in love with when it came to dune where not necessarily the things that the author was the most interested in, and knowing what happened in the later books actually diminished my enjoyment of the original. I didnt spoil myself on purpose. Like, I figured things would end really poorly for Paul, but I was personally mostly interested in the political intrigue and the societies and cultural institutions. I personally did not find his philosophical discussions as profound as he himself found it. Especially from the perspective of political science. Most of it is very entry level theorizing described with very flowery and self-important language. And the later books seemingly contain more and more of that. I think thats probably why some people say the later books are "bad". They focus shifts/becomes more apparent. I enjoyed Dune Messiah and Children of Dune on an intellectual level, but I wasnt emotionally invested by that point. God emperor dune is kind of the opposite in that I actually was emotionally invested again, but I stopped being intellectually invested as I kind of stopped looking at him as a highly intelligent author, I know that sounds mean but it is what it is.
I totally agree. Dune 1 - for every sf fans. Dune 2/3 - for Dune fans. Dune 4/5/6 - for Dune nerds. I personally recommend to stop at the 3rd or 4th book as well.
Dune Dorks 4 Life
Heretic of Dune….you are.
@@mikesbookreviews We are are!! :)
Man, everybody hates those Brian/Kevin books.
I just read Dune for the first time today and I LOOOVED IT! Thank you so much for this video. I also heard that the other books suck and I almost didn't pick them up. But now, I'll start reading Messiah tonight. Already loaded on my phone.
Dune Messiah is my favourite of the sequels. I think Heretics and Chapterhouse (if finished) could of been a great sequel trilogy to Paul/Leto's golden path story. Although they are a continuation, and important in Herberts vision they are almost like a spinoff series.
So I watched this review before I started any of the Dune books, I just re-watched it after finishing God Emperor and it makes so much more sense now and I have to agree with him on just about everything. He said I’m not sure if I’m going to read more after this, but I’m definitely going to reread the series with the knowledge gain from God Emperor and I think that will completely change book one. Just thoughts before I dig back in
God Emperor is my favorite in the series, and LetoII is actually my dream role! I would love to play that character on screen!
I'm so curious about this, but will wait to watch this after I watch Dune Messiah.
Then either hope the rest gets adapted, or continue to never care to read the books, but I appreciate every info I get from the ones who have read it. You included. Thank you.
"Challenging the reader" is a lost art. It really saddens me that our culture has lost an appreciation for it. My favorite book of all time would have to be Lord of the Rings. And there are parts in that book that have been painfully dull for me. But as I've read and reread it, I've come to realize they aren't by accident. Tolkien is intentional in what he's doing. If a reader is willing to put in the work, he will be rewarded.
I read all Herbert books a few years back. 1-4 are great, 5 and 6 where a slow, slow slog until the end of them both where something did happen. My favorites are 3-4, really like the story about the god emperor and what he goes through.
Good to know the sequels can be enjoyable reads, if you go in with the right expectations.
Absolutely.
My ranking is:
1- God Emperor
2- Dune
3- Heretics
4- Children
5- Chapterhouse
6- Messiah
As somebody who likes the world building and geopolitical lore side of dune more than the philosophical insights of Herbert, all of the books after Children are a travesty.
@@Jordblitz no
@@flotilha935 um, objectively yes 😂
@@Jordblitz“The truth always carries the ambiguity of the words used to express it.”
@@flotilha935 this is literally the exact thing the books after Children get bogged down in instead of crafting a realistic and dynamic universe 😂
Thank you, very clear, helped me solidify that I want to read the first 3 at least if not 4. I will say that it is possible for extra material to work. I attribute my love for Star Wars more to the Knights of the Old Republic I played as a kid. Like you said is the story needs to be compelling.
I’ll be reading Messiah and children this year. Very excited to continue. I was planning on stopping after that but I’ll probably read God emperor on your recommendation to complete the golden path!
I’m at the end of children of dune, and with every turn of the page I want to read god emperor more and more.
I agree with you. Loved the trilogy, liked God Emperor and was super confused with the last two. I tell everyone if they've only seen the movie they might not like the book since the movies were made from the throw away lines in the book. I feel if they do another movie it will be about the Jihad and they'll skim over the rest of the book. What I never saw coming is the guy who is the connecting character, no spoilers, to all the books. That was kind of wild to me. If he is the next one at least people love the actor and would love seeing him some more. The way he'll be portrayed if they stick to the book, considering who it is, might make some people very confused.
Thanks Mike I’m obsessed with the first book and the world of Dune now.
Welcome!
A very good talk. Enjoyed what you said about Srar Wars.
I read Dune many years ago and never got around to the sequels.
About 6 years ago, I re-read Dune and then read Messiah and Children but I've had God Emperor sat on my shelf for a few years now but I haven't had the urge to read it yet..... maybe soon
I’m so very glad to see this video! I adore Messiah and Children though they are a bit wonky and really should be reread. I plan on re listening to God Emperor soon. I think these books are the ones that make the series special and define the themes Frank set up in the original book. I believe Frank took some inspiration, amongst many other things, Greek tragedies particularly the Oresteia, with the Atreides being descended from Agamemnon.
Mike, I know you like to remain as positive as possible for which you have my respect. But would you consider doing a little short on why you don’t like the toilet paper books? Brian Herbert as a person irritated me because he whines. So I’m not buying them. But you allusions to the distain you feel interests me.
Happy reading!
Agreed!
I personally consider them a tad higher quality than their reputation suggests, but all of their faults Mike described accurately. Its probably more fair to compare them to... say... The Drizzit Saga to LOTR. They're fun candy but they absolutely dont belong in Dune, for a plethora of thematic, tonal, continuity, and mechanical issues with the main saga, and the shift is so radical its poverty insulting and rightly so.
I need a begrudging explainer of the Brian Herbert Dune-iverse 😂
Thanks for the tips! 😊👍I'm a fan of "Hero's Journey" stories, so I guess the end of book 1 would be my jumping off point if I ever get around to reading it.
The sequels are dense as far as content, not length. The Golden Path is still something I still don’t completely understand, however, I agree that books 1-3 and 4 as an epilogue are essential. I enjoyed Heretics and am currently on Chapterhouse.
I would hardly call the original ones page turners, to be frank. I am not a fan of Frank Herbert's writing style. He seems like he was quite a fascinating accomplished fellow though, outside of his writing.
I would never describe Dune books as page turners, I agree
I read all 6 books when I was a teenager as well. I remember struggling with all of them-especially the first 4 books. There is ALOT of philosophy in them that went way over my head at that age (and still does to be honest). I agree with Mike that Dune Messiah and Children of Dune should be read together and I feel are actually 1 whole book. I still enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse and even though they are quite different than the other 4 books Frank still wrote them and I attribute the differences to age and time (I think he wrote Chapterhouse about 20 years after Dune). People change in 20 years. They are still good books. I will take exception to Mike's thoughts on Brian's and MJA's prequels and sequels. I enjoy them very much. I don't consider them "bastardizations" of the original. I think they give a more complete story of the Dune Universe. In my opinion they do tend to be a little long-winded but the stories are interesting and still thought-provoking. Albeit not as much so as with Frank's books. I haven't read all of the sequels but what I have I've enjoyed very much. Some might consider them "fan fiction" but I do not. I highly suggest fans of Frank's works to read the prequels and sequels. Sure they're written in a different style (different writers have different styles after all) but they doesn't mean they aren't well-written and a lot of fun to read.
Indeed. That's why I wonder if Heretics and Chapterhouse would work better for me at this age than at 16.
@@mikesbookreviews I'm not sure. To be honest, a few years ago (even before I knew they were remaking "Dune" I reread Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune. I used to have all 6 books but somehow lost Heretics and Chapterhouse. It would be interesting reread those now. As I said in my original comment, Frank wrote those books approximately 20 years after "Dune" so even though there was a lot of the same ideas/themes from the original book he matured as a writer and probably in his thoughts on different subjects so those later books had a different tone to them. Much more mentally digestible in my recollection. By the way, I've also read the "Pandora Sequence" books and you can see inklings of "Dune" in there but they are far inferior (even though they were done after "Dune). They were a slog for me and I almost didn't finish them. Not because dense themes but because of bad writing.
Hm, I don't think the Golden path is concluded in the 4th book. As I see it, the golden path continues and all the events of Heretics and Chapterhouse are direct consequences of the golden path (and the stupidity of Bene Gesserit, too).
Also, the Atreides family lives on - Miles Teg, Darwi Odrade are both Atreides. And we can count Duncan Idaho as Atreides too, who is revived as ghola again and again and again...
Sheeana is also from the Siona and Duncan line, so she's also an Atreides. Same goes for Lucilla.
My buddies and I typically make the split after Messiah. Messiah and Chapterhouse both have the most concrete endings in the series, even if the golden path never resolves, and if you start from Children you might as well stick around for Chapterhouse (which is a fantastic book, if nowhere the tier of GE or D1.)
The third arc (heretics/Chapterhouse) is pretty self contained in those two books, so they dont leave their own story open, and they develop and flesh out a lot of the golden path, without much its difficult to fully understand GE.
God Emperor of Dune is hands down the best book!
I can see why some don't like the story, but it was a perfect fit for me after having read some other serious sci-fi, including a number of P. K. Dick's short stories before I got to Dune. I was also in my early teens at the time. It's still my second favorite book series after Wheel of Time and just above Lord of the Rings.
I enjoyed Dune. Read it before the movie but I thought the characters were weak. Recently finished Messiah and liked where it went and am interested in reading children but I don't think I'll read it anytime soon. I already know the craziness that happens in the sequels and part of me wants to read God Emperor to see how it all plays out. And yeah I think I'll stop there, especially reading that Herbert wanted Heretics to be the start of a new trilogy and it sadly didn't get concluded by him.
I like Dune Messiah and God Emperor of Dune more than Dune, particularly the latter which is one of my favorite novels. The only Dune sequel that I have some problems with is Children of Dune, which I just feel needs to be tightened up in places, specifically Leto's odyssey. I like how weird stuff gets after the Scattering with the Honored Matres, Futars, Miles Teg, etc (if far future epic SF doesn't occasionally make you uncomfortable, it's not trying very hard imo) and while I would've liked to see where Frank Herbert was going with the story, I've come to see Chapterhouse as a fine ending.
Thanks for making this! I read Dune before the Part1 came out and loved both the book and the movie. Then i decided earlier this week that i really want to reread Dune and this video convinced me to make reading Dune Messiah a priority as well as to see Part 2. I just got back from the movie and I'm HYPED to read at least the 4 books!🎉🎉
Dune Messiah was my favorite. I stopped after children of dune because I saw that shit gets weird after that. I could have muscled my way though it but since Frank Herbert died before finishing the series, I chose to stop at children and am satisfied with that
"Brian books should be used as toilet paper..."
You won here a suscriber, my friend.
I came to this video thinking “Wow, someone is actually going to defend the books his son wrote, this should be interesting.” Seriously, who says the official sequels suck? God Emperor is dynamite.
Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars(Barsoom) series influence all Sci fi after it, especially Star Wars, Flash Gordon,writers like Jack Vance, Jack McDevitt, Asimov, Ruocchio, Greg Bear, E.C Tubb etc, etc.
After seeing both movies, I felt the original "Dune" novel to end even *more* abruptly and weird and I cannot understand why people feel that is a book that can stand on its own. So I read "Messiah" after it and *now* it feels like a complete story. It read like an epilogue to me. Then I read "Children of Dune" the past week and.. yeah.. kinda wish I didn't. It was super philosophical and not really easy to get through. I had to search a lot on Wiki pages to the point it became a little exhausting. Then I found out that in the 4th book there is a huge timejump so you don't even know what happens to some characters like Stilgar / Jessica etc.. so I think I'm good for now with the original 3 books. Currently reading the prequel books, and while they almost read like YA books sometimes, they are definitely more relaxing and less challenging texts to go through. Some people might like the dense and philosophical reads but I get enough of those in my university classes already.
God emperor was my favorite book. Leto is very cool
Of all the Dune sequels, "God Emperor" was my favorite just for the Leto sandworm hybrid alone (I mean, who doesn't want to wear a sandworm costume at comic con?), but after reading "Dune: House Atreides" (which I kinda liked) by Brian, I had to stop because enough is enough in the Dune universe. I'm not surprised to hear fans hate on the Brian Herbert books, because I felt the franchise went south with "Heretic" and "Chapterhouse". If I recall, wasn't Arrakis destroyed at the end of "Heretics"? What's the point of continuing the franchise if there's no Arrakis? I think had Frank lived, he should've stopped after "God Emperor" and moved on to other things.
I read Dune for the first time when I was 13 (1983) so I can really relate to a lot of your story. I was really surprised by how much I loved and gobbled up Heretics and Chapterhouse. God Emperor took a few tries. In the end I went back and read the Brian/Anderson Prelude books, which I actually enjoyed, although they pale in comparison to Dune. Then, I just kept going all the way through Chapterhouse. Didn't make it past page 1 of the other Brian Herbert stuff that followed.
Have you picked up any other of Frank Herbert's work? I enjoyed Soul Catcher.
I'm about to watch Dune 2, and only recently saw Dune 1, and gearing up to read them all again, it's been about 15 years.
I felt depressed at the end of Chapterhouse partly because there wasn't going to ever be any more. It felt like stopping a book with 2 chapters to go. Wouldn't it be amazing if a Ghola of Frank could continue the story.
Would you consider making a video just explaining why the Brian Herbert books are considered so controversial and polarizing to the fanbase? I'm genuinely curious what the deal is with them, speaking as an outsider to the series.
It really wouldn’t take a full video. He isn’t a good writer, has no respect for the rules his father set up, and he has constant continuity errors. It was just a case of a paycheck for him. Still is.
@@mikesbookreviews I agree that the Brian and Kevin books are just estate authorized fan fiction. Poetry (Frank) vs. prose (Brian). Singing (Frank) vs. local news report or book report (Brian). I did give them a chance, though. They continued to disappoint with no reason to expect improvement.
I actually opened the video wanting to understand if there is anything worth reading in the Brian Herbert books. "sequels to Dune" for me means anything coming after the first 6 books. It feels incredible to me that the progressive evolution and deconstruction of ideas in Dune in the six books could be taken separately.
I would go further and say the series doesn't even start to get mind-blowing until CoD. Reading only the first book is like only reading The Hobbit. The scope of the thing expands so much, and we see how Other Memory really works. I think we need to see more of that. Other memory is really important to the story, and the movies haven't really conveyed that to me. People think Paul and Jessica just woke up with blue eyes and then yelled a lot. Still awesome movie though.
I just finished reading the first trilogy and despite my vague interest in reading books and this franchise I’ve decided to just stick with the first trilogy. Still pretty good recommendation, and how the books are better than the movies. Someday if I get a chance I’ll check out the 2000 3 part miniseries as well as the sequel from 2003.
I'm on God Emperor Of Dune almost done with it very good in my opinion. I'm loving the series so far.
I’m a huge dune fan and I definitely believe people should read messiah, Children and god emperor but i also think that god emperor is a good stopping point. After that book the series felt different to me and the fall of Leto ii ended it on a hopeful note.
I feel like Dune Messiah is very natural sequel of Dune, and everything after is not necessary, though I've stopped after GEOD. But I can't deny that some of the most important Frank Herbert's ideas he put in these books.
I really enjoyed Children of Dune because it does feel like the proper sequel to the original. It’s got the action and adventure of the original but it’s Paul’s kids this time, and Leto II is like a more extreme/worse Paul, and the Baron returns in a unique way as the villain. Most of the original characters are there but with a twist. It’s more fun than Messiah. And the ending is pretty clear what Leto II is going to do.
Then God Emperor is good but it’s definitely a book for people who care more about the worldbuilding and philosophy than the story itself. I enjoyed it but I could have done without it. it’s the first book that feels very different from the original trilogy. Something I see people say is “only read Children if you plan on continuing to God Emperor” which is really disagree with. I like the way you put it: read Messiah and Children together for a more satisfying sequel experience. God Emperor is an interesting but ultimately unnecessary story in my opinion because you can infer enough about the Golden Path from its ending to know what the god emperor is going to do.
One of the things I don't like about the series in general is how certain characters feel underdeveloped for me, squandered even.
I wanted more from Jessica, Irulan, Chani, Ghanima and the Fenrings (where the hell did they go lol), but for some reason, Frank Herbert didn't deliver that much imho.
I haven't started God Emperor yet, but I'm curious to see if this trend is gonna be repeated there and beyond.
I read Dune and Dune Messiah. Liked Dune, but was eh on Messiah. The movies are about to have me read at least 1-4. I need more Dune
I actually think that book 5/Heretics of Dune could’ve been the perfect ending the franchise. I remember reading it for the first time and it completely re-contextualized the first 4 books. It was like the perfect end cap to the series. It was like books 1-3 were one end of a huge era and book 5 was the extreme endpoint of the other end of that era, with God Emperor being the kindof focal point or center of the whole franchise. Books 1-3 lead to that moment and book 5 was now leading away from that. Book 5 kindof has a an ending that could’ve acted as a series finale and it felt like that, book 6 didn’t. I sometimes think that if book 6 didn’t exist, then more people might see it this way. Book 6 isn’t the worst thing ever, I just think it’s story is kindof weird even for Dune standards and like you said, it leaves on an unsatisfying ending due to book 7 never happening.
Excellent video, Mike! I will finally read beyond Dune to at least Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. I'm not sure about crazy town . . . But never say never!
Dude it’s full on philosophical batshit. You’ll love it.
@@mikesbookreviews Ha ha! 😂
Just brought the entire collection on kindle. Started reading Dune and I am really enjoying it
The main character of the Dune series is humanity itself and nothing less. I can't imagine not reading the first three, they tell the full story and are inseparable, imnsho. God Emperor was more of an acquired taste for me but I have come to treasure it. Put together, the first 4 books are one of the great achievements in all of literature, for the ideas and philosophy alone. Heretics and Chapterhouse are enjoyable but not "great".
Btw, Paul is not a hero, nor an anti-hero. He's a human, meaning he's both, like we all are. Same with Leto II.
Wow, those were the editions I read 35 years ago also. Checked out from the library though, not purchased. :D
I love the last two, but have never been tempted to delve into the the Brian Herbert books.
I think they are all worth reading. Frank Herbert definitely liked women, he had the Bene Gesserits and then later the Fish Talkers female army. There is a lot of odd things in these books but they are enjoyable to read. But if you like Dune, then the next 3 books, Messiah, Children and Emperor are all an essential continuation of that story. I was disappointed in Messiah of Dune, mostly because of what Paul does. And then the Children of Dune I'm disappointed in Jessica because she basically turns her back on everyone. The books by Frank Herberts son Brian are not as bad as some people make them out to be. But they do go off on some wild tangents and the prequels are just really new books that imagines the origins of the Dune universe.
So you do have Glen Cook in your library!
I loved Messiah and God Emperor and to a lesser extent Children of Dune. I agree the Heretics and Chapterhouse are a step down, though I still think they're good. It's too bad we lost Frank Herbert and he was not able to write more. Cheers.
Dammit I have for years not read any books beyond God Emperor of Dune and just picked up Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse:dune a couple of days ago. Haven't start reading them yet but starting to regret the decision.
I might be wrong but Frank finished Heretics and Chapterhouse before he passed but the two books were supposed to be a new trilogy and he never finished the 7th book. Brian and Kevin ended up supplementing books 5 and 6 with Hunters and Sandworms of Dune.
I read dune when I was 14 as well. Then I reread again when I was 30 . I love dune . I tried to read messiah and was bored out of my mind . I don’t know why but I think I’m happy with Dune being a much more sci-fi version of stat wars . Again Dune was my favorite book from age 14 to 30 something lol.
Messiah's my favorite out the bunch
Nobody show this video to Brian Herbert! 🤣 This video makes me happy because I generally recommend the first four and then stop, so I'm glad to have the same view as a lifelong fan of these books!