Why Mercenary Park Didn't Work
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- Let's talk about why Mercenary Park turned out poorly, along with how Attack/Defend is an outdated gamemode.
Special thanks to DrHappiness for providing the Demo and Highlander footage!
Minature Skymin Artwork by Opossol: / opossol
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0:00 - Introduction
1:12 - What Works in Mercenary Park
2:42 - What Doesn't Work
4:19 - Old TF2 vs. Current TF2
5:08 - Map Evolution
5:53 - Valve's Map Design Didn't Evolve
7:02 - Attack/Defend Problems
8:16 - Did Moving Buildings Break A/D?
9:02 - Competitive Maps/Modes
10:00 - Conclusion - Ігри
Bit of insight on the development of this video:
Initially, both the Powerhouse video and this video were one topic under the umbrella of "Valve Never Evolved Their Map Designs," I ended up splitting them up because I didn't want to put together what could have amounted to a 20+ video for my sanity sake. That's why I talk much more about Attack/Defend as a whole rather than the issues with Mercenary Park. People have pointed out that Park does actually include some more modern designs and that's not wrong. There are more instances of verticality on Park than a lot of previous A/D maps, but that doesn't fully fix the core issues with A/D as a game mode.
I wrestled with naming this video more akin to, say, "Valve's Map Designs Are Stuck in the Past," or something relating to Attack/Defend being fundamentally flawed with current day TF2, but since I mainly only talked about Merc Park, I gave it the title it has now.
uh cool
@@vacilated LMFAOOOO JUST "uh cool"
To be honest I do agree but then again I never really enjoyed 5cp to much unless it was 5 gorge I always been a attack and defend person and lately when (i'm not playing payday) I've been playing powerhouse idk if its my inner engi but most of the time when I play and I remember when buildings first became movable and the first 9 hats added anyway when I play im a very aggressive engi and I can turn defense into a pain for the enemy sometimes but really you have inspired me to check out more 5 cp thanks
I really wish you had made this a 2 part video instead of a 2 map video. I mean I think you will get more views because its a 2 map video but it results in a really shallow discussion givent the time needed to repeat things. In particular it means the videos are told entirely from a comp perspective. A/D maps are much more popular for the average player than 5cp maps. And this trend has been increasing over time. 5cp and koth maps are less played in modern tf2 by everyone except comp players while A/D, capture the flag, and payload have exploded in popularity. But there is no discussion of this in the videos.
@@mr.engineer7788 you are just bad at the game. Thats why you hate 5cp
"Tear this map a new route" - new favorite quote
Lol same
*insert funni epik joke here*
I'm going to press the E key
Oh, a fellow doctor.
MeeM
The biggest crime this update committed was the lack of saxton hale in mercenary park
Imagine Saxton as a playable character
They could've totally had Saxton be the announcer for that map!
Search saxton hale in google images o.o
@@coolmuzt twitter do it again!
@@lolbitandftfoxysayhello6262 You mean the Vs Saxton Hale mode?
Still remember going on this map for the first time and being bombarded with everyone being Pyro with the Dragon’s Fury. Those were crazy times.
I miss those days lol
hard to believe that thats almost 4 years ago...
@@coobk yea
Memories of going through a doorway and being INSTANTLY melted by three Pyros... those were the days
@@coobk jesus christ, really?
Valve made maps being long drawn out stalemates is actually genious design, because it enforces the lore, in which the gravel wars are a long drawn out stalemate.
Not only does it enforce the lore but makes the casual experience way more fun. Chokes and long matches promote teamwork. Chokes and long matches buffer differences in average team skill. Chokes and long matches promote opportunities to start relationships with other players, enemy and friend(actually Mercenary Park seems specifically designed around this idea in a bunch of really clever ways)
@@peterisawesomeplease Exactly. That's why I've always loved semi stalemate maps like Dustbowl. I LOVE chokepoints
For some maps that might be a cool theme, casual back and forth pushes along the middle and progress is rarely made. But for a competitive game or even just some maps you want a goal to achieve within 20 minutes, we need better designed maps than attack vs strong defense before switching sides
@@Petrico94 There are are plenty of 5cp and koth maps in the game. Even more to the point koth and 5cp are super popular map types for independent map developers to make. It made sense for valve to do a new A/D map. There are some interesting ideas for totally new game modes and the like but outside that don't understand why people hate on valve making non 5cp and koth maps.
@@Petrico94 Good thing TF2 isn't a competitive game then
Imagine if we could fully explore the park, maybe a payload map in the jungle a bit like banana bay? That'd be sick.
Can't wait for low end pc to crash even harder
Isn't that just Enclosure?
@@QuantumLeclerc ssshh. Don't remind us that Enclosure exists.
@@chrisdroney8141 enclosure is cool
@@QuantumLeclerc Yah Enclosure but instead it isn’t the flawed multi-stage map type that is widely unused nowadays for a good reason
*Edit:* Please read Skymin's pinned comment, she addresses many of the things I said.
I actually don't think the map is THAT bad, honestly. It was when it first released because it lacked a lot of alternate routes and forward spawns, but now? I think it's pretty good.
I pointed out before how similar the design is to Gorge (at least the area up until and including the first point), but even in gameplay, it's pretty much the same honestly. The same sightlines, the same chokes, and so on. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if it was yet another Goldrush situation where they updated the design of an existing map (Dustbowl in Goldrush's case).
Yeah, the last point is a huge beast to attack unless you have coordination, but that's a problem with ANY last point in my opinion. It doesn't really stand out that much more, and again, reminds me of Gorge's last (which is equally as frustrating to attack because you have huge sightlines but can't even see most of the Sentries).
I also think there is always demand for more pub-orientated maps. I don't think a map is automatically better if it's made with comp in mind (I mean, I think Swiftwater's last is one of the worst I've ever seen). And Mercenary Park still has the things you noted like taller ceilings and more side routes (really, it was way worse when it launched). I love the map and it's my second favorite A&D map, my favorite being Dustbowl. I just find it enjoyable to play on, even if it drags on for a long while. Same goes for Powerhouse. I mean, that's how the game was designed - you play a bit until you get bored and then leave. Actually sitting down to finish matches is something that really only came with Casual where you have to queue up for maps and can't easily rejoin.
Really, I just think it's a more fun version of Gorge.
Hello!
Hey look it's German Man
Big agree honestly
Yea, I felt like I was crazy or something I personally love attack & defend as gamemode and mercenary park as a map. I also really hate 5 cp its the gamemode I have the least amount of fun in. I was wondering if anyone else felt simular
@@perilousskillet5269 Oh you are not alone. One of the best parts of tf2 is the way different map types cater to different people. Different map types even develop their own cultures. You hop on swiftwater most people are playing to win, you hop on 2 fort people are screwing around, you hop on powerhouse people are grinding their unusuals or going for crazy kill streaks. Attack defend maps like Gorge or Mercenary Park tend to have more neutral cultures so you get a bit of everything. In particular though I find that they attract people trying to win but being stubborn about using some ridiculous non-meta strategy/load-out to win.
Personally I really like attack/defense, chokepoits and all.
Chokes have lots of positives people like to forget. They promote teamwork and buffer imbalanced teams.
@@peterisawesomeplease Yeah but if a map in tf2 has a bad choke, then it's probably one of the worst maps in the game
@@eh2587 There are "bad chokes" but there also "good chokes". And maybe more to the point the overall level of "chokes" influences what the map is good for. But the overall level being high is not necessarily bad. Its just bad for particular things. Like a map with very strong chokes is often bad for comp but good for pubs. Chokes of the same strength can also be badly or well designed. A common problem for many of the older tf2 choke designs is that the choke is too easy to break with uber but too hard to break any other way. A good example of this is hadoo chokes. I mean this is great for promoting team work and encouraging new medics but it is really bad for class diversity and giving new players a chance its also just kinda boring waiting for uber trying to push and then waiting again. Another problem with many chokes is that they are much easier to hold with a demo or sentry than any other class. Its interesting to think about maps that have very strong but very good chokes. I think Mercenary Park last falls into this category but you can also look at points like swiftwater second. It has ridiculously strong chokes but they are good ones in that number of player advantage or positioning advantages are just as good as uber for pushing. They are also super dynamic. Even off uber it makes sense for the attacking team to keep pressuring. And finally they are class diverse. The demo and medic are not the only classes that determine if the push works. I could go into why they work better than hodoo chokes but the important point is that the chokes are as strong as many hodoo chokes(so you get the same anti-roll and teamwork benifits) but they are also more fun to play. Chokes are not not inherently bad. They are a key of most tf2 maps. Its the details that matter.
I love a/d as a gamemode, the basic rules are perfectly fine and could be my favorite mode... but I don't like most of its maps
3:10
completely unrelated, but shoutouts to that guy in chat who's excited to be playing with the 100% real uncle dane, completely unaware of the real youtuber in the game lol
Mercanary Park the ost is one of the best
gooigi
the best in my opinion
It is.
𝙉𝙤
@@vacilated yes
This video is even more interesting with the modern knowledge that Merc Park was indeed designed early in the game's development. Crazy that Cactus Canyon ended up being the final Valve design in a core game mode
was about to say the same thing, it feels like a relic of the past because it quite literally is. The layout was all there and while I still love Merc Park today it's clear that it needed a bit more time in the early blocking stage (maybe more playtesting in general lol)
It's my favourite map of all time. The tight corridors, the secret places to hide in and build sentry nests. Love it.
I love this map even though it is quite unbalanced
Its not imbalanced at all. It is one of the best balanced pub maps ever made. The map is incredibly well designed from a class balance point of view and from the point of view of creating balanced feeling games even when team skill levels are mismatched. Its only imbalanced from a competitive perspective. But who care the map will never be played in comp and was never intended to be played in comp. It is also not attack vs defense imbalanced. Its sits at right about a 50% win rate for attackers. I realize this feels low. Most maps have much higher attacker win rates. But again it is pub play balanced. In comp you are going for time so it makes much more sense to have maps balanced for 90% win rates.
Same
Same
Yo
@@peterisawesomeplease based
5:40 "As TF2 evolved, faster matches became the norm"
"Hence the popularity in 5cp"
Bruh I think you forgot how every game of 5cp has ever played out
you have a point
yeah
How exactly did they play out?
@@variantgamer9885 The game's timer extends to 10 minutes every time a point gets captured, and due to how whatever team defending gets an advantage on capturing because of spawn points, it's an endless battle where the only ending is hoping one team can bulldoze and capture both points super quickly
@@variantgamer98855cp is always a painful, bloody tug-of-war of a match comparable to having your balls crushed by a hydraulic press due to the severity of the stalemates you can see in game. The 10 minute timer reset initiates the CTF problem where, assuming both teams are equal in skill and classes, both teams are actively encouraged to sit down and begin trench warfare until the other side screws up, then push, usually involving uber, following that screw up. If your team screws up the push/defence, get ready to get crushed, lose your captured points, get pushed all the way to 2nd or last due to lack of defences, then stop the enemy push due to enough manpower and deal with another 7-8 minutes of turtling before another push that either ends the game or places your team right back to where it started, which resets the cycle. In balanced scenarios, 5 cp can last for anywhere between 14 painful minutes to a never-ending stalemate of hell. 5 cp is a flawed gamemode akin to the trenches of the Western Front in WW1. It’s painful, it’s slow, you barely gain any ground for each push, thousands of tries and casualties for each push to succeed, with the smallest screwup causing all your progress to get washed down the drain. Either that, or unbalanced teams will cause the game to be anticlimactic and unfulfilling on both sides, as the superior team will always blitzkrieg to last in less than 3 minutes. Thank you for coming to my TedTalk.
as someone who only plays casually, I really only play payload and attack/defend. I like being able to set up on chokes or find ways to break choke setups. that is my favorite part of the game.
Not every map needs to allow huge movement, especially when only a select few classes have that power. It too much of a 6s mindset, imo. Movement kinda forsakes the rest of the TF2 classes. This is why I think Payload is a great mismatch that gives every class something vs. 5cp. Just like Peter stated it need mores flanks and maybe a slight expansion.
Also: Classes that have movement are already the most powerful classes in this game with or without the movement.
I like the stalemate/ forever gameplay of Powerhouse...just like people do with Hightower
People always seem to forget that 6's meta gameplay and map design is rarely liked by the casual players as people like actually being able to win on defence.
Remember stop watch is usually based on who wins the fastest and consistently NOT how far did they get before the defence holds at high skill play.
Also most classes lack mobility to designing maps around mobility being king just means most classes don't get to see play on them like engi or heavy.
As someone who genuinely hates 6s and the influence it has on the game, this is pretty much my issue with the video. A lot of the TF2 UA-camrs seem to be firmly on the side of 6s, and it's always struck me how firm the disconnect between 6s and casual is. I also dislike that it's the mode that the in-game competitive mode went for. It's just...fucking awful to transition to that when Highlander would have been a much easier pill to swallow for most of the casual community, as Highlander is a lot closer to the game they know. So this map ended up being much better to play on for casual.
I strongly agree with this. Mobility is great, but it shouldn't be the main focus of map design. Make sure that the map works for _every_ class on a basic level first, then you can go into detail.
People play - and main - all 9 classes, so if you give more room for the Jumpers and the Scouts then you leave everyone else in the dust.
Best part of the maps that cave area in the vents near the final point. They could’ve made just a basic vent shaft, but instead made this small side route into a serene yet mysterious hideaway, a peaceful escape from all the sentries and spam.
There's also a mysterious rocket-jump point for epic flanks.
Ah, so there are players who DO know that route exists!
Wasn't demoman always a hybrid between offense and defense?
I think they mentioned it in the developer commentary
Video: Mercenary Park sucks
Comments: Nah lol
Me: What's an attack defend? All I know is Payload!
*OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFF*
All i know is KOFT harvest
Exactly, mercenary park is by far one of the most popular cp maps
*I ONLY KNOW NO PAYLOAD HIGHTOWER*
This update was what 50 years ago
yes
what
@@guythatlovestf2733 it's true though
IDK feels recent to me
I actually love Mercenary Park. It's got so many adorable secrets, and plenty of places to hide teleporters.
I really like attack/defend and hate 5CP with a fiery passion, so maybe I'm the wrong audience for this, but I really like Mercenary Park. It's just a new spin on Gorge, which is one of my favorite maps. You're damn right about one thing, though. Saxton Hale should have been the announcer.
Cause they were running low on merceneries
Anyway we need more mercenaries. No more left huh?
Extinct you say? Bit well I’ll be square with you.
lmao I love how you brought up the fact 2fort used to be ran in competitive tf2, it was my favorite niche fact to tell other people.
Its like a fusion beetween powerhouse and any attack/defend
Has an open principal space and else is chocky, also 3cp
attack defend is gamemode, but some maps of this mode do have 3 points
Everyone always forgets that one flank on mercenary park last that can let u cap without being detected by engie babies
Oh totally the success rates on attack have been going way up as people learn how to push the map and especially sense the big update to the map. I don't think its fundamentally harder to push than say gorge or mountain lab and its certainly easier than say barn blitz.
People just need to learn to push the top room and then hold it on offence so people can use the flanks. There is a pretty substantial attackers advantage to get control of that room and once you hold it, it opens up the windows, the vent, the left balconies, and spawn camping. I think the big problem people have when pushing is they tend to take the upper room and then immidiatly push further when they should really just hold it and regroup(wait for heals, get a sentry/tele/despeser in their, just wait for numbers).
But people have had 10 years to learn other maps. Over time attack tends to get easier.
I can just Imagine how that map had that charm if saxton hale were couting saying etc.
Just got back into TF2 after years. Glad to see people still keeping it alive on the youtube front. Love the representation of your medic too in your pfp and the video. Awesome video.
Mercenary park was already discussed by Uncle Dane, but this does give some other point!
One of the few things I can agree with Skymin on in this video... Carnival of Carnage did have a hilarious backstory. The guy just straight up forgot to do the ritual on a graveyard, but the corpses don't need to be above ground and they don't need to be ancient. So Mearumus contacts Jane
"The community knows how to make better maps"
Me*see's pier
Also me* gets headshot from across the map by a red dot.
At least it's better than swiftwaters sightlines
@@atm2959 I haven't played that map yet, it's now on the todo list. Been sticking on community maps for so long...
@@_wheeler8601 swiftwater IS a community map
It did work! I love coldfront as well. I love powerhouse as well. Mayb I just like bad maps
Powerhouse, Mercenary Park, and Coldfront are great maps. These videos are ridiculous. They are targeted at pub play but make arguments that only really apply to comp.
@@peterisawesomeplease all of those maps are worsened by terrible 12v12 clogging in chokes lmao
@@mattzr1550 "Clogging in chokes" != bad. It may = bad for comp or bad for high level pub play but there is a reason maps with clogged chokes are so incredibly popular.
Chokes encourage team work. You want to find where new medics playing tf2? You are not going to find them on harvest of snakewater. No they are on dustbowl because they can live long enough to get uber. Have you ever made a steam friend in tf2? I bet it was on a map like powerhouse where the game lasted long enough to build a relationship. Do you hate rolls and getting autobalanced right at the end of the game. You might find chokes useful in giving the autobalancer time to fix the balance while there is still some of the map left to play. Do you live in a place where connecting to tf2 servers is a pain in ass? Maybe you want long games so that you don't spend half the time you have to play trying to connect.
I think Mercenary park is a good map in theory, not because of his gameplay, but of his history.
In the gameplay as you said there are some good things to save, other need to be replaced. The main problem is the C point where the defence is very strong. A point to change this is maybe to make the point into a volcano, so there are plenty of space to play arrond.
For A point we theorise based of an unused room near the point that there was larger space than before. For B point you had the room below but we don't know why ...
Finally the name of mercenary park was the final version. In fact, if you look at the models, you see that some letters are unused. Combine them and you obtein Mercenary Island or Yeti Island.
There are many other props unused of this map but I don't know where they can be placed.
So yeah, maybe Valve changed in last minute the layout of the map because they didn't like it.
If you are more interrested about Mercenary park I made a video about a year ago, telling what's the secret of the map, It's in french but maybe you can understand it.
Great video!
What the hell? No need to insult the potted plant that was a bit rude
I thought it was great, it’s just a big map. So my thought is why not slap on man vs machine onto mercenary park. I think it would be pretty cool, just make it where your team attacks and captures each place against the bots. Then you have to defend against waves of attacking. Shakes it up a little.
Tbh there isn't as much analysis of the actual map as I hoped in this video, you kinda just say it's bad and that attack/defend is bad.
Mercenary park isn't a great map but it's decent and a lot more interesting and balanced than you make it out to be. Each point has interesting high/low ground and several viable ways to push. The last point is definitely stalematey but I think it's notable that the top room is practically given to blu, providing a good angle on sentries and a viable place to push. Also, those vents everyone ignores can be very helpful for flanking.
No you cannot rollout at 3000 hu/s but the heights make rocket jumping and mobility still fairly important. I don't think Valve were trying to go back to their old formula, I think they were trying to make a modern map using a dumb gamemode.
(Also Engi is important and powerful as hell on Payload, I guess it's fine there though)
It doesn't really make it important, it's pretty much reduced at avoiding taking the stairs
@@leonardo9259 Yeah but it's still better than something like Dustbowl
@@leonardo9259 Are you serious. Go try to play soldier without rocket jumping or scout without double jumping on Mercenary and come back to talk to me. Like the room above last has absolutely critical double and rocket jumps in it. Getting on top of those props basically determines who wins last. And on second the catwalk above the point(which you can jump to as scout means everything. The attacking team can walk to it but not the defending team.
@@peterisawesomeplease i did, it's called playing literally any other class lol get over it
@@leonardo9259 ? yes you can do will on Mercenary park playing heavy or spy. But you can also do well on viaduct playing heavy or spy. That does not make viaduct a bad map for mobility. Mercenary park is filled to the gills with mobility tricks. Like there was even a b4nnys video all about the interesting scout jumps on the map.
If I had a nickel for every time Skymin classified Upward as "community made"
I'd have two nickels. Which isn't much, but its pretty weird that it happened twice.
I love this map! It can be weird, but it's cool to play on.
Its a great map tbh alot of detail and lots of colors
mean while pl_wutville
I recognized Hale's voice, but couldn't put my finger on where I heard it.
Turns out, it's JB Blanc who also voiced Kano from Mortal Kombat 11. Cool!
I love how the map looks. but it makes me so sad the map isn't fun to play on
Loving the new format keep up the great work 👍
I like the format. You should make a video on maps you’d like added to the game!
It's ironic the old maps didn't support movement as much since Soldier was designed specifically with rocket jumping in mind and demo too.
I love doublecross for lengthy matches. Some of the scenarios and positions become like an intense military warzone and you make up missions.
Red team: We currently have secured and captured the middle bridge, keep those teleporters and sentries alive at all costs or we'll lose our position!
Red team: The blues currently holds down the main gate with tight defense, they've hold down a stronghold but they have a weak point. Your mission is to take the sewer entrance past the scouts and infiltrate their ranks and weaken their defense for our heavies to engage, demos will attempt to use the shortcut to blast up and take out their intelligence sentries but that main gate is your top priority.
Blue team: The reds have set up a stronghold in the center of the bridge. We've secured the main gate but they cover the outer area and stops any rush attempt. You'll need to cover the snipers who will focus on taking out their engineers so our soldiers can supply artillery support and take out those sentries.
I admire cp_steel. I wish the rest of that gamemode lived up to the potential that map uncovers on its own.
The only two Attack/Defend maps I put in my selection screen are Snowplow and Steel.
Snowplow, while just a fancy A/D map, is actually balanced for both sides of the fight, like you showed here.
Steel, while it can be confusing is an interesting take on the gamemode, with it's central, easily flankable last point (E) which is capturable at all time, even since the start of the round. Each other points captured opens new routes, and move the defender's spawn further away from last point (B making the spawn switch to the other side and the defenders having to now go through a longer part of their spawn to get to E rather than it just being outside their spawn, and D closing off the exit doors going to E). Each area of the map also offers advantages and incovenients to all 9 of the classes :
there's open areas, corridors and sniper perchs for the Snipers but also lot of close-quartered areas making sniping difficult there.
There's death pits and high-grounds for the Pyros to utilize their airblasts and Soldiers/Demo/Scout to exercise their mobility but they are vulnerable to Wrangler and Snipers on open areas. There's more defensive-oriented positions for Engies to build relatively safe but there's also flank routes for Spies and explosive classes to get to them, and those positions are also near snipers' perchs.
All in all, Steel is a very well designed map that gives strengths and weaknesses to every classes.
It's a shame it's too confusing for new players.
I like attack/defend mode and rarely feel like the matches go on too long because the timer either maxes out at a reasonable length (except on Dustbowl) but they don't end up being too short unless the defenders are particularly incompetent. It's control point maps I never cue for because they either end instantly because one team had more Scouts who got to the point first, took it immediately with their cap speed multipliers, then got the others by backcapping before the opposing team could regroup, or it becomes a stalemate lasting hours and hours as teams capture and lose the same points over and over, adding several minutes to the clock every time.
I absolutely love this map. Don't know why. But I do
In all seriousness, this map is great
It has great visual design for sure, but I don't see how you can love playing on this map
@@burnstjamp i love dustbowl so this is a good alternative
@@Zack-yx2zg its ok, we all like terrible things
@@kaned2732 I can agree with that
I like Mercenary Park and Dustbowl too ._.
2:57 I find it funny now in the tf2 leak it turned out mercenary Park was in the game for years and that way it like that
I dont if im crazy now or what but attack defend is one of my favorite game modes. I also really like mercenary park as map (well besides the last point that thing gives me dustbowl vibes). Also I find 5 cp to be boring as gamemode, almost every match I've played of it lasts hours or we steamroll/ get steamrolled, scouts abuse the maps no like other and some of the final points feel just as chokey. So i dont know if I'm just part of minority or what.
Mercenary park's first two points are alright, but attacking the last point is a freaking NIGHTMARE.
Attack Defense can work, just look at Gravelpit. It’s just that the general map design for most them is exactly what you said, lots of tight chokepoints, long sniper sightlines, etc.
This map has such a great vibe. One of my favorites, only being beaten by Pier and Enclosure. I love the tropical/Jurassic park vibe of it and really like all of the details, like the jungle area through the vents and the alligators on the first point.
Honestly best lore behind a map
just your preamble touched on all my favorite underappreciated things in this game: pl_cactuscanyon, rd_asteroid, and Mannpower as a whole
I just got to say...
The track for this update is a bop!
Honestly I never thought this deep into A/D maps before and why we don't see them in competitive except maybe Steel. I always just assumed that they were like payload maps, 1 team attacking and another defending a series of points until the attacking team either get's the final point or time runs out with the map favoring the attackers early and the defenders later on with more open part of the map with more flank routes early and getting progressively chokier as the map goes on. So it didn't really make sense to me why we didn't see more A/D maps played in competitive with the same ruleset as payload.
Mercenary Park might be my least favorite Attack/Defend map. The first two points are alright (more or less), but that last point is absurdly difficult for Blu to capture. Unfortunately, the gamemode really doesn’t have a lot of good maps, especially with stuff like Junction and Dustbowl, along with Mercenary Park. I don’t think I can give any of the maps a rating above “serviceable.”
I also wish Snowplow was joined with the other Attack/Defend maps instead of being in the Misc category. It is a well designed map (in comparison to its brethren) and really isn’t all too different mechanically from them either.
I do think you should have more specifically talked about Mercenary Park’s issues though. You talked about the flaws with how the game has evolved (in many different ways) and why Attack/Defend isn’t a great gamemode, but the title of the video insinuates that you would be critiquing the map more closely. Good video, nonetheless.
I'm always down to play Snowplow but being relegated to misc means no one seems to want to play it
@@aperson6505 Yeah, and that’s one of the biggest shames about it. I think more or less the other maps in Misc belong there. Many are one-off game modes (Doomsday, Watergate, Hydro, Degroot Keep being Attack/Defend but melee only so obviously it essentially is its own mode). 2Fort Invasion is a reskin, and Probed, while being a unique map, has a lot in common with event/Halloween maps, so I understand that one being there.
Snowplow, on the other hand, is an Attack/Defend map just like the other ones. It has the train, yes, but that functions as a round timer just like any other map, just stylized. It makes me wonder if they don’t add that to the main category because of all the crap they got for removing it in the first place, and, considering it’s Valve, I wouldn’t be surprised if this were the case. I have liked Snowplow since it came out, but because it’s in the Misc category, no one plays it, as you said. It’s pretty sad to see.
Since you brought them up this video, I'd love to see you do a video on the beta maps. I used to play a lot of cactus canyon when it was first added but since it was never finished I slowly just lost interest in it. I think cactus canyon would've been a good map if it'd been finished, and I'd be interested to see what you could dig up on it.
I was super excited for mercenary park & jungle inferno, since it was the first major update to the game in... forever, so seeing something new was great. However, not having saxton hale as the announcer was a real missed opportunity like you said, and the maps were overall just not as fun to play for me as the current maps, though they did look a lot better with the tropical environment.
Crazy this was 4 years ago now. Dragon Fury Pyros were everywhere back then.
This is actually my favorite A/D map after Gorge.
I'm one of the rare weirdos who actually played hydro in 2008 and actually misses territory control.
Hydro aside, TC feels like a segmented 5cp.
@@LeUnoriginal It would've been good for tournaments if it was tweaked
I didn't play Hydro in 2008, but it's a good map. Sad it's very hard to find players on it.
Hydro is pretty alright, it's neat to find a game running there time to time still.
Dear god extend the cap time though!
Valve saw we were so desperate and thought "Let's give them something crappy. We'll get a lot of money!"
Do you think having Attack / Defend maps with alot more points like Steel (and technically Snowplow) would be a good direction to go? like Payload incentives moving around all the time, but like Gravel Pit you could have alot more fluid options for which to go for
Will we ever get another update.... I want more weapons and shorts..
@@dumbchannel1430 Absolutely not! It would far safer if they let the community handling the future updates.
One of my favorite parts of your videos is the Harmony of Heroes and Night in the Woods background music.
What’s the name of the tracks? I really liked them
@@BeyondFables Rhythm of the Kong (1:10) and Yoshi's Island Chill (2:44) are both from Harmony of Heroes, and Clanky Must Live (4:19) is from the Night in the Woods soundtrack.
Just realised demo got a random crit on a soldier in the final scene we're red and blu are fighting
Solid work as always!
I think the community would disagree. I only play attack/defend and Payload, and this map comes up VERY often, beating other maps like gravel pit, steel, mountain lab, and a couple others I can’t mention off the top of my head.
Just because you personally don’t like the game mode and map doesn’t mean it’s “bad” and “doesn’t work.”
I love the quality and love went into making Mercenary park . And the map even got updated to fix issues with it and added more route to help with choke points and strong sentry placement. it's something unheard of to see a Valve made map get improved and not stay the same way forever .
2:32 I don't think i ever thought about that. That would of been awesome
I think you missed what I see as the key point of A/D maps: teamwork. Yes, competitive maps and community maps have high sky boxes for explosive jumping classes, yes 5 cp competitive maps are a bit more even in terms of base chances, but the nature of those maps allows specific people to dominate and carry their team. I contend that most A/D maps require team work and coordination on the Attackers and allow individuals to shine but never let their guard down on defense, presenting different challenges to respective sides. If you think requiring coordination is a map flaw then why even play a team based game? The amount of times I've been on koth or 5cp and one dude carries is annoyingly high. I think the amount of times that's happened (for me) on A/D is in the single digits after nearly a decade of playing on and off. Also I think I hate competitive mode, I think it's a waste, and balancing the game around something that a large portion of players don't care about and might not ever touch is a fruitless effort. OG tf2 is messy, fun, and exactly what I want.
I feel like skymin should make a gameplay channel
I actually really like powerhouse and it's long matches and mercenary park play's nice too
I don't particularly agree that it doesn't offer anything new to TF2's experience. Mercenary park is one of two 3-point AD maps, the other being Mountain lab, and playing experience between them is vastly different, Mountain lab offering a very vertical playground with lots of choke-pointy inside areas. Mercenary park features a lot of indoor room-to-room action, the entire map essentially being 6 large rooms glued together to form a map.
I still really enjoy playing this map, it's probably in my top 5 AD maps.
Tf2 gameplay evolving may not be evident to people new to TF2 but TF2 really has changed especially Engineer which is a all around class now. Support: Drop a Tele for quick movin, Dispenser heals and give ammo. Defense : Sentry gun, Offense: Movin sentry and gunslinger
Great video! Quick tip on the mic EQ, you are sounding slightly nosey, which can be helped by EQ'ing your voice in about 800-1500Hz
Guess I have to find a new Jungle Inferno map to play, never managed to queue into one of those matches anyway
Mercenary Park is still my favorite map to play on.
In the map evolution part what was the train map? I want to play that.
T'was a pleasure fightin ya!
Have you ever watched the clone wars?
I'm curious bc of your patron named Ahsoka and how you pronounced the name so effortlessly
i kinda like tf2s choke style of maps then the free-flowing one as well i do enjoy longer matches that changes the area up rather then being quick lol
See, I really like mercenary park. Then again i like all attack/defend maps. Then again I ALSO also like powerhouse, so what do I know? I think Val should stick with the original design philosophy when designing maps. The emergent gameplay is just that, emergent, so it has to adapt to the game not the other way around.
Personally, and this might just be my Payro main talking, but I think right chokepoints are NEEDED for balancing and as a challenge. I disagree with basically everything you say here.
I think you're overly harsh on Mercenary Park, especially when you compare it to Powerhouse. While the Attack/Defend game type has the inherent flaws you mentioned, Mercenary Park does the most of any map of its type to mitigate them. It has more flanking routes than any other A/D map, and also each of its three control points has flank routes that give the _attackers_ an inherent, overall advantage over the defenders, allowing them to win through a slow push rather than having to coordinate a single, fell-swoop 'fast push'; thus allowing pubbers to potentially execute them. These flank routes are the upper stories of each of the control points, especially the final one. If you've ever had to face an entrenched Blu team with sentry guns, teleporters, and stuff in the upper story of the final point, you will know how difficult it is to fend them off let alone to push back against them and recapture those areas. They basically have more cover than you and a better angle of attack. Overall, I find that Mercenary Park is less of a meatgrinder for the attackers than any other A/D map and also that it allows for more mobility, especially for pyro and scout who I feel are especially suited for its two initial points. There are also some special qualities to it that are fun but underexploited. There are the labyrinthine tunnels running around the rear of the final point, for instance, with very powerful but largely unappreciated spots for rocket jump flanks, and also a space on the glass window overlooking the final point that a defending soldier can rocket jump up to and dominate via a sort of peek-a-boo strategy.
Hey! Mercenary Park is a great map, a great experience for people who like Dustbowl. Because, *that's basically what it is. It's a chokepoint with a map built around it*
Mountainlab, egypt. gravelpit, gorge, junction and ESPECIALLY steel are fun to play, so its not a fundamental issue with attack/defend mode. Steel is one of the most fun to play maps ever.
Competitive TF2 community: People only play fast game modes like 5CP and Cart, new maps shouldn't be long.
Actual TF2 community: 2fort had 3x more players then the next popular map and never ends.
I just wish the choke point on last didnt feel like getting straight up strangled by saxton himself unless you have multiple ubers in your push
some of my best matches have been on mercenary park
Tide turner hybrid knight is really effective on this map
"...Jungle Inferno in 2017..."
God... I'm getting old...
The best to come out of JI was the second banana.
What's the background music used around 7:04 until the end of the vid? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Did you ever find it? I'm looking too
I think these map analyses would be cool on other games to
May I ask what HUD you use?
As a casual player this isn’t a bad map. A good engine with a good tele can win offense.
“This time it exploded, (the kids are gonna love it)... anyway! We need more Yeti’s... No more left huh, Extinct you say.”