How Team Based FPS Games Distinguish Teams
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2024
- Music Used:
Shoplifting - Night in the Woods
Heightmap - Transistor
Canson d'Automne - Chris Christodoulou
Moisture Deficit - Chris Christodoulou
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Welcome to Mafia Town - A Hat in Time
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Meet the Spy - • Meet the Spy
Spongebob and Patrick rob a bank - • Spongebob and Patrick ...
Hydro Developer commentary - • Hydro Developer Commen...
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Edited by Nfro ( / nfro_sr )
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Intro/Outro by Dapper Dog
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Tf2's team distinguishing is a bit unique bc the teams are so obvious, but players still constantly shoot each other to spy check.
"You can very obviously tell that this person is on your team. But actually no"
And then you see a Pyro or Demo without feet and remember, "oh yeah, that's the bug alright *shoots
"
@@KRIMZONMEKANISM
Wait what
@@KRIMZONMEKANISM I'm not familiar with that bug.
@@jcdenton2187 Basically sometimes when a spy disguises as a demoman/pyro, some body parts of that disguise will be missing. Like if I disguise as a pyro, and someone from the other team walks up to me, they might be seeing a pyro without a head. Or if I disguise as demoman, they might see a demo with no legs. This doesn't happen with actual demomen or pyroes, so if you see a pyro with no head or a demoman with no legs, they're definitely a spy.
@@bottlegang3187 That only happens if the cosmetic item replaces the pyro's head, Like the glowing lightbulb one
5:40 - To be fair, you can still easily see that this is a Sniper because of his posture.
The posture is another part of recognizing characters to be quite honest. Especially in TF2 where postures kind of give an idea of the role the class has alongside the class itself.
Something many cosmetics also do is keeping the overall shape intact. but, also, yeah, quite a few break that rule like the example in the video.
Or the freaking banana cosmetic.
The ostrich is halloween restricted so it gets a pass.
Those are also Halloween cosmetics, normal cosmetics don't break the silhouette like that.
Also the ostrich cosmetic is Halloween only because it's cluttered
It's a sort of sad and hilarious testimate to TF2's charactet design that I still recognized that muddled shadow as Sniper. It was the posture.
exactly! every class that looks similar to the shiper (basically scout and medic) have either completely different outfits regardless of cosmetics or very different posture
Yeah, the posture is INCREDIBLY important. No matter how deranged the silhouette gets, that posture is a smoking gun.
I got flashed with it and I knew it was sniper from the way he holds the sign
I thought that was Heavy…
@@randommandude5450Really? Wasn’t It Pyro?
Then you have Splatoon which can get away with most stuff as far as visual team recognition goes. Even beyond the design of the characters themselves you can tell who's who by what color they're firing and what color they're standing on. That's one big advantage of turning the usually abstract concept of territorial control in shooters into a concrete and visually distinct game mechanic.
Good call! Splatoon also makes it easy to figure out what weapon each character is holding so that you can know what type of play style you will be fighting.
@@perplexingkelp Indeed! Not only are they big and with distinctive designs and sounds for each weapon (especially between different weapon families), but also the pose, and thus silhouette, of the characters changes significantly between weapon families. Shooters, Chargers, Rollers, Inkbrushes, Sloshers, Splatlings and Brellas are all held in very distinctive ways between each other, so even from a distance you can tell what your allies or opponents may be up to.
@@Brunosky_Inc Yep! That's a good reason why Splatoon is a great game!
*shoots at feet of enemy*
THEY BE IN OUR TERRITORY
I mean it does seem to be lacking sound-wise
I can hardly ever HEAR something before i see it, save for the grenades
So it sometimes doesn't matter if i can see what they're using if i realize after turning a corner that i see that they're using a roller, cause at that point i'm probably dead
I think the reason for Medic's color design is to make him stand out much more from the other classes.
Everyone else's matted blues, reds, and browns remain somewhat uniform over the team as a whole, but Medic's stark white points him out as a particularly important target.
"With the Medic your eyes are drawn to his crotch."
That, my dear ladies and gentlemen, is why Manly Medics wear their chest hair on display, drawing your attention back to the Medic's true important features, an engulfing sea of healing musk that will heal the very fibre of your being as he closes his vigorous biceps around you, basking you in his raw medical magnetism. No amount of medi-beams could ever match the sensation that shudders through your body as you are healed by the primal attraction of the pinnacle of Mann.
Laughs in straight jacket and unusual hat
Laughs in- I don't have any good cosmetics for medic
*LAUGHS IN GHIBBUS FOR EVERY CLASS*
@mokolate Medic: **Places gibus on head**
Every spy within 127 miles: *HON HON HON*
Damn lol
I think medic differs from his team that much because of his "I use my medi-gun and stick to my team 90% of my time" strategy. I mean it's not hard to spot bright team-colored beam that comes out from Teutonic Traimatizer.
This is what I wanted to say, I notice an enemy medic, since they are a support role, they are usually not a direct threat and follow their other teammates, and it's obvious that they're hostile if the medic running around the enemy team with their colored beam.
@Sayura Lokhande Yeh even if they're on they're own the little team color gives it away immediately
also his massive hands covered by massive team-colored gloves
they're around the same size as soldier's hands lmao
and his doctors coat makes him stand out even more because its the brightest thing any of the classes wear and it changes colour for which team theyre on (white for red, pastel blue for blu)
Plants Vs Zombies Garden Warfare does a great job in team difference:
The attacker are always Zombies and the defender Plants.
Zombies are Humanoid, walk like, you guessed it, zombies and use washed out colores like brown or grey.
Zombie territory are graveyards with sience fiction advancements and use rock and roll with zombie grumple singing.
Structures are linerar and artificial, industrial.
-> cold washed out colores, generall cold metallic and dead
Zombies are using regular weapons, aka Bullet sounds.
The Plants are...Plants and not humanlike, walk lifely with joyfull swings and use bright colores like green, violet and yellow.
Plant territory are gardens with trees, vines, flowers,rainbows and in the background you can hear joyfull whisling.
Structures are full of curves, like in nature.
-> strong and bright warm colores, joyfull and full of life.
Plants have interesting sound design, describing it wouldn't deliver the message, lets just say they sound very different to Zombie fire.
PvZ GW is a good game, it kinda sucks that Popcap is owned by EA :(
@@kaicenat2015murder Popcap wasn't good as a company by itself. They mostly maked candy crush like casual games, Plants vs Zombie was just an exception. But true, garden warfare 2 and fight for neighborville are inferior to garden warfare 1.
It should also be mentioned that both teams have completely different classes, but there are still some overarching concepts. Need healing? Sunflower and scientist. Melee? Chomper and super brainz. Sniper? Cactus and captain deadbeard. Small guy that can turn into big tank? Acorn and imp. Magic? Rose and wizard. There are so many overarching types that even when you're a plant main, chances are that there is a zombie with a similar role and playstyle.
@@dededeletethis9940
1. Im only talking about Garden Warfare 1
2.I mentioned that plants are defender and zombies are attacker, there's no need to tell that they have different classes
3. If we're talking about GW2, it did a terrible job, by setting the plants on some maps on ATTACK.
+They added Character with abilities from the other teams (f.ex. emp)
You could argue that EA made this, so plants could better attack and zombies defend, but you're just basicly crippling the game to achieve something other games did better.
They should have let the old formular unchangef and plants only defend and zombies attack.
@@dededeletethis9940 Yeah but I feel as thought the zombies overall are better than plants
Im surprised you didn't mention the voice lines of different tf2 classes. Since they sound unique and are playing whenever something important happens (kill, uber, etc) and most players tend to spam voice lines, its very easy to tell who's nearby. And because tf2 displays friendly voice lines as chat messages (like calling for medic) its easy to check if the player saying that is on your team or not
Ditto. TF2 is mostly focused on visual readability but it's quite good in the audio department, especially with characters.
don't forget about- SPAHS SAPPING MY SENTRYY
Their accent does the trick
Did you know that Heavy and Demoman are voiced by the same person ? And yet you can always distinguish them by their voice
@@jacquesnouvel6436 and by the fact that Heavy's voice is so deep, that it is used to research Earth's core
wHY is the cart nOT MOVING
It's nice seeing you branch out into more different types of videos, instead of solely focusing on TF2
It’s what I’ve been trying to do for a long time, but it can be difficult when people get antsy about there not being any TF2, so any topic I discuss for a video, if it can fit I slot TF2 in there.
@@SkyminSlash well I can say I support if you branch out to other games
@@SkyminSlash As long as you don't pull a Muselk I think people will be fine. Lol.
Or in other words, as long as you're not appearing ungenuine or spiteful about it. I'd rather you be making different content happily instead of making the same content but being bored of it yourself.
*Tf2 fan agrees*
It is nice to see ure Iggy profile picture
The other ways on how teams are further distinguished in Overwatch is not just the glowing outlines, but also their projectiles, the enemy team shoots red projectiles or something close to red, while your team shoots blue or other default colors (Genji's projectile colors is green when you or someone else on your team is playing as him for example.) Enemy ults are also colored red and have loud voice clips to distinguish them from friendly ults.
Reaper's default ult is "Die! Die Die!" but if a friendly Reaper performs an ult it is instead "Clearing the area." in addition, friendly ults are much more quieter.
Enemy ults can also be different languages like if lucio ults he'll say let's break it down in Brazilian. While with with dva she says nerf this if she's an enemy and self destruct sequence activated if she's a friendly.
Most projectiles in TF2 are also team colored. Pipes, stickies, crockets, flares, syringes, etc.
@@Litl_E PROJECTILES. A lot of the time you get bullets and fire,which are not team collored(unless crit boosted). Also,aren't soldier rockets grey,green and oringe(based on the launcher)?
@@sawyerbess2966 i did not read that correctly. Sorry. The bullets are yellow though,no matter the team.
@@davitdavid7165 but bullets only stay on screen for half a second.
Csgo color arrow is mostly used to say someone's name like "orange" "purple" and more older cs games have no arrow u had to use only the model of the player to distinguish teams
It's still used in CS:GO to distinguish teams
@@runktheruler what I find strange is that skymin talked about cs go's arrows but they were only added within last 2 years, just like in tf the cosmetics weren't always a thing, those arrows weren't always a thing
"grein whatisyuorproblm grein mesayalonram mesayalonram *gets banned*"
Green wtf
ORANGE WHY ARE YOU NOT PLANTING
Reminds me of the PVZ shooters just straight up having different classes on each side. Its impossible to get them mixed up!
I was actually hoping once that i'd get the chance to have a plants vs plants or zombies vs zombies match but i guess that ain't happening
I suppose it makes sense cause there's literally some things that would break if the enemy team could do the exact same thing
How would two chompers fight eachother!?
@@spartanwar1185 i think they would bite eachother
In GW2 and BFN, there are classes that behave similarly to the other class in the other team, but instead of being an outright copy, they have something that makes them not the same as their counterpart (for instance, Acorn and Oak and Space Cadet are identical, but Acorn and Oak are more dangerous by solo, whereas Space Cadet is more dangerous when paired with other Cadets).
Something interesting about CSGO, relating to the footage used: The map shown in the video was recently updated to use different CT models (FBI) for better visuals. Mappers take their map's color palette and visual style into account when deciding on which playermodels to use as defaults, which is why the new agent skins have been so controversial.
Green fbi model OP
@@MultiThatoneguy123 accept if its mirage no one can camoflage in mirage
hey that rhymed
Honestly I think tf2 should have a “turn off cosmetics and unusuals” button
^ THIS!
WE NEED THIS PERSON'S IDEA!
You can get a mod which removes all cosmetics
We should have that in all competitive games. In r6 I can't tell you how many times I've died to someone wearing a skin that blends in with the background.
theres a command to disable cosmetics, look it up.
no hats mod, simple, go search it.
17:25 - Unless CT picked up a Molotov or terrorist picked up an incendiary.
Ye but they are exactly the same in terms of damage and spread. No one cares if it is a molly or incendiary.
@@senseihello incorrect mollies do more damage per tick look it up
@@Gladdds Incorrect. They changed it. Mollies used to spread more and do more damage, but, now they are the same.
@@Gladdds ua-cam.com/video/cwXOi89PXnQ/v-deo.html
@@senseihello sry I guess I'm wrong but it does feel like the Mollie is still better considering price
In the Engineer's sentry section, I'm surprised you didn't bring up the startling sting added to the detected-enemy beeping when it's an enemy sentry that just spotted you. While it's not particularly loud, it is startling enough to make most players think "Bad idea! Bad idea!" and change course.
0:04 I would simply make sure that the following is being done right:
Teams must be easy to recognize. Meaning no special stuff can be introduced if it means it will make readability worst. (Looking at you CS:GO)
Models must be either all the same and allow limited customization or be different but must have a limited number. (Looking at you Overwatch)
No models should be allowed to clip inside of the map. (Things like sniper rifles, can't be hidden inside of a rock or pillar or any part of the map)
And my personal favorite way is to make them look none realistic. I prefer a goofy or cartoony look, that i can easily spot miles away. Rather than some over complicated model that requires more time to spot. And no, Fortnight doesn't get a pass. Their models have garbage amount of unnecessary costumes and flashy colors.
One of my favorite games that did most of it right is Avatar Star (very old game, sadly no longer available in Europe), but it has really fun and customizable models. It has it's flaws, however the amount of fun i had with that game was amazing.
to be fair to fortnite all the flashy colors and costumes only help readability since anything that moves must be shot at
I have never had any issue distinguishing counter terrorists from terrorists in csgo. NEVER.
yeah in cs i never had distinguishing cts from ts and vice versa
fortnite doesn't have teams though
@@witzprinz4766 Same even in over watch I never had a problem knowing who was who
Overwatch also increases the volume of enemy weapon sounds to help differentiate between friendly and enemy players, as well as general enemy noise (enemy footsteps, enemy voices, etc.).
For those of you wondering why I didn't choose X game (Paladins, Rainbow 6, Valorant, etc.):
1. I am not familiar with X game enough to confidently talk about it in a video. Heck, I'm not familiar enough with CSGO, but I had an informant and provider who knew enough to confidently provide me with accurate facts, hence the use of CSGO within this video. Additionally CSGO provided a different view on team distinguishing due to the fact it is not a class based system like TF2 and OW. Most of the other games still function as class based shooters and would have been more or less the same tactics from .
2. If I added a 4th example to the video it would have tacked on at least 7 more minutes and bloated it even further. I didn't want to make Nfro (the editor for most of this video) go crazy with the amount of stuff that would have needed to be edited, plus this video was already long enough. I don't like my videos going past the 20 minute mark for multiple reasons.
This isn't to say X game isn't worth discussing with this topic, it likely is but I'm just stating I'm not familiar enough with X game to confidently talk about in a video like this OR I found their design choices to similar to a game I was already very familiar with and was going to have an easier time discussing.
Are you going to make a video on TF2 and CS:GO source code leak?
Nightmares why it’s been confirmed to be an outdated build and completely safe
lachlan Bastin ok
Hey Skymin Slash, I copied my own comment, to mention these wonderful facts.
>Copied< Fun Fact:
Because TF2 characters and buildings are painted with Blue and Red, people with colorblindness can tell the difference between enemies and allies, since Red and Blue remains normal, it's pretty much the reason why colorblind people are interested to play TF2. Here are the examples from the diagnosed colorblindness:
Deuteranopia: Blue becomes Grayish Blue and Red becomes Dark Brownish Yellow.
Protanopia : Simillar to Deuteranopia, but way darker
Tritanopia: Blue becomes Light Blue and Red becomes Pink.
Paladins especially is similar to Overwatch in how it differentiates characters. It uses the same red/blue outline for enemy/your team. And it also has a few issues with silhouette recognition in characters like Lian and Cassie (although it don't have hero swapping so you'll always know who is on the enemy team from the start). And Paladins has a bit less complex art design compared to Overwatch, especially in particles, so it's easier to tell what's going on.
But yeah, there wasn't a really necessary reason to include Paladins.
Great dive into this topic, it informed me on Overwatch’s way of informing the player when I thought it was just a visual mess of information! I look forward to your next video essay! Keep up the good work!
“With the exception of medic who kind of forces your eye to his crotch” “that’s where the eyes should be going on him”
I know this isn’t what you meant
But I’m so sorry-
Medic painis
@@tntrose7285 medic painis
@@YourKingPyro medic painis
@@Helperbot-2000medic painis
@@caboose3191medic painis
15:41 TF2's sound is important but not as important as the overwatch one
You can:
Listen to spies decloaking
Realizing if a medic has charge (the medi gun does an electric sound when fully charged)
Finding the enemy's position
Heck, even if medics hate it, the medic call can help medics identify where their teammates are, how low on health are and which classes are hurt.
But all of that can be easily identified without the sound (you can turn to see the spy, you can count ubercharge, you can just go spy and find your enemies, and you can see the healthc crosses when your team calls for medic)
Also, I'm a medic main, I know the medic call is annoying but it has been very useful when a roamer teammate is hurt and I can identify its position
@@sho3003 As a medic main myself I'd much rather teammates spam medic unnecessarily, than to not spam medic when they NEED healing, because the visual cue of the bubble still changes darker red and gives you an idea of the health of who's yelling.
I personally don't have the "teammates auto-call for medic when health is low" option on. I don't really know why other than it strangely does annoy me more than people just spamming it on their own.
"You can turn to see the spy"
And if youre guarding a spot and he goes behind you, with zero sound to indicate any form of presence?
Also, you cant see every teammates health unless theyre right there, so the calls are good.
And assuming youre in the heat of the battle, youre not gonna be looking at the uber indicator, assuming you have a default hud.
@@AAAAAAA-nh7jv amm
1.- I said that to make clear that you can play tf2 without sound but the sound makes the experience better
2.- When I talked about the uber I was talking about the enemy's uber (ubercounting is second nature for experienced meds so even in the middle of the battle they will count uber)
3.- Fcking spycheck
4.- You can still see your teammate health bars, and experienced meds usually can see healthbars without distracting, you are just a bad medic that cannot multitask
5.- the roamers can still walk to you to get healed and when they call for med with some commands you can see their healthcrosses and if those are red they are half health or below
I played TF2 without sound once. I hated it.
4:10 Nice touch on the transition.
"when cosmetics arent in the miscs"
me, who knows how each mercs hold their different weapons and how that sillhouette and can immedietly identify a mercenary even by their cosmetics: *superority complex that will affect life choices noises*
When you’re playing TF2 while watching Skymin Slash
Just out of curiosity, how is tf2 right now. How many bots have you encountered?
I play skyrim listening skyrim.
@@oof-by1lz At least 2 in every game I've joined today. But at least they don't crash servers any more and usually are kicked almost instantly, so that's something
Shouldn’t you be avoiding playing it right now because of the leaks-
@罗钧义 but valve isn't that trustworthy and the advice is still "be careful until the next update"
This whole video is basically "Yes, TF2 is THAT well designed."
Lol I thought the same
Except for that sniper emu thing.
@@avatargir8006 It's still perfectly recognisable as a RED Sniper, it's just the art-style that gets fucked with, other than that, it doesn't give him an advantage.
@@avatargir8006 Well if it bothers you you can disable cosmetics with the no hat mod so no harm done (you can also selectively disable cosmetics with that mod). Also, that's a Halloween-restricted cosmetic to begin with.
It is though =j
16:32 How did i never noticed that?!
you need to play more tf2, Max.
independent of noticing that, more Team Fortress 2!
And to answer your question, it's one of countless niche details in the game, so many little things in TF2. it is hard to know them all.
i just think that if it shot rocket,then its level 3 lol
It was busy shooting at you.
The issue there is with team recognition is when the player plays multiple team based games, but gets too used to one game's design choices or doesn't get used at all.
And then they complain about everything different and whine about how it's "bad game design."
I know right I never had a problem telling characters apart
@@pasteldreams5413 I know right lol
Most new FPS games are doing that outlines feature of distinguishing between different teams.
Sure it helps give out options to players and allow a variety of cosmetics/skins, but it can hard to tell who's who with so much visual clutter from abilities and effects on screen.
One game that's very easy to distinguish teams is Doom Eternal's battle mode since one player plays as Doomguy, while two others take demons. I just like how that's a very simple approach of distinguishing whose in what team since it fits with Doom's theme. One man against multiple demons. Same with L4D2 versus with survivors and infected. Themes just work so well and glad this video explores that.
If you're struggling to determine who's friend and who's foe when they're clearly outlined, you should probably get your eyes checked my dude.
@@pasteldreams5413
I mean, I can tell whose ally and enemy by outline. I'm just more used to team color clothes.
I said in comment that's it can be helpful so players can wear whatever skin they want. Only issue I've heard is how some people can't tell who's who in fights in OW when people are spamming effects. Mainly casual players who barely play the game and more used to other games instead.
Being color blind and slightly hearing impaired, I can understand now why TF2 had such a draw to me where as I could never get into other FPS games. I'm sure the general mechanics, memorable characters, and being free-to-play had a lot to do with that, too, though.
Yeah my hearings fine but my eyes are shite
I think it’s one of the reasons I find the battlefront games easier to read
Like it hard to fuck up bright white and yellow classes plus the blasters allow for east tracking and even the cosmetics only change the colour instead of the unique silhouettes of the infantry
In my opinion, this video is yet another testament of how TF2 has a incredible game design. The cartoon artstyle helps a lot, unlike CS:GO, more realistic and very dependent of map/sound design which makes it difficult; and with a overall designs that is recognized and distinct with few (sometimed no) visual effects, which is Overwatch's biggest sin.
Good video! Though I feel CS:GO didn't get the credit it really deserved with readability of situations i.e. radar, footsteps, map simplicity.
Like you can be at A and hear the far away gunshot sound effect and immediately know "the Ts went B," or hear louder, unreverbed sounds and know they're at mid.
Same with footsteps, they're loud and can be heard very far away, and each footstep surface is distinct. Some maps make important areas a different material just so people can know where the steps are coming from(see Vertigo's metal grate at A ramp for example)
TF2 readability does deserve it's credit as the best IMO, but CS:GO is incredibly in depth too :)
I do mention how crucial sound design is to CSGO, but this video was more focused on how teams are distinguished, nor necessarily the positioning of players on the map, hence why the character designs were more focused on.
Plus I'm not personally a CSGO player, so I didn't have much to add about the game. That information all came from the person who edited the video.
@@SkyminSlash Yeah that's understandable! I'm just saying what I think about the game 💚
After playing TF2 for 5 years, only know have I realized that the sentry beeps correspond to their level. Thanks Skymin.
I like the way siege does it. Not only do the attack and defense sides have completely different roster, but most of the ops have weapons that are unique to them, and most weapons have a very distinct firing sound. There is also the scouting drones that all attack ops have access to, and the cameras that all defense ops have access to that can assist in gathering essential information for each side.
"difficult to distinguish baby dva, tracer, and widow" -- hair and movement.
halo my favorite game literally just drops their characters in a red or blue bucket of paint
I think Medic still follows the original design philosophy, due to the gloves being color-coded. But it also highlights the importance of finding the support first in teamfights, by drastically differentiating it with the other class colors.
(Was this said in the video, must've misheard.)
Me: [comes to watch this straight after listening to The Rain Previously Known as Purple]
Me: [hears Chanson d'Automne suddenly in the background]
Me: [is content with life]
ALL HAIL, CHRIS. CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU, OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.
I really wasn't expecting ror music from this channel, but my god I ain't complaining.
IDK I think you're kinda underselling Overwatch's sound design, even if you weren't really negative on it. It goes beyond Overwatch's abilities - The weapon audio that you mention for TF2 and CS applies to OW too, and I'd argue even moreso.
There's no mistaking the sound of Widow's scoped shots, Baptiste's 3-shot burst, Bastion's bigass Sentry gatling, Lucio's sound bursts, the sound of your health being drained by Ana, etc. The closest overlap is probably between Mercy/Baby Dva's pistols and Ashe/McCree's primaries (although Ashe can fire that way faster than McCree, but let's assume she's firing it at about the same speed for some reason).
In the former case, that's fine - they're both the weakest guns in the game, being used by characters who are probably only using those weapons as a last resort. Both pistols basically convey the same info - some poor sap is ripe for killin'. Similarly, Ashe and McCree both convey the same info - they've got powerful long-range hitscan guns you probably should be wary of.
In that way, it doesn't really matter terribly much if a newer player mixes up McCree and Ashe's guns, or Ashe and Widow's silhouettes. The game is designed smartly so that you can react to one more or less as you'd react to the other, and you'll have performed vaguely the correct response.
Good sound design doesn't make up for the game design being mediocrity by design. The game is pretty garbage, can't believe I stayed around for them to delete my character after watching them delete Mercy. The game is not designed very well at all, it literally removed characters that were well balanced (or in the case of Symmetra was the highest winrate character in the game at all skill levels) because it was easier to quell toxicity by simply removing the players that enjoyed playing the characters that were receiving toxicity.
And don't even get me started on how they balance with hard countering, League learned that lesson a LONG time ago and even though they still make some serious design mistakes, the reality is Overwatch is designed by people with no game design experience by comparison.
A good sound designer does not make a bad game good.
@@SherrifOfNottingham So... you're a salty Sym player?
It's a bad game, poorly designed, and caters to the toxic crowd. The mere fact that your response is focused on a single character pick and being toxic over it proves exactly what I'm saying.
@@SherrifOfNottingham I mean, what else am I supposed to take away from your frustration over the fact that a character you admit has the highest win rate got changed? Like, did you want that to not be changed or what?
@@bld9826 Because the rework was not because she was the highest winrate hero, it was because everybody thought of her being the weakest hero, despite her consistent 60% winrate in all skill levels.
She got changed because people complained that she was too weak and a troll pick. Blizzard made the changes to her with no input from the people that actually played her and outright moved her away from being a support and changing her entire playstyle to be a DPS just to appease the toxic players.
It's not about the highest winrate hero getting changed, it's the reasons and the path they took to change her.
TF2 has the best method for sure. You can distinguish teammates in an instant. Overwatch on the other hand has way too much visual clutter, color outlines or not.
Very true, although I will attest, there are a select few cosmetic items that when combined with a shadowy location (like under a platform, in a tight hallway, etc.) make me look a second time. Most notably the Commissar's Coat
eh...maybe? I mean in overwatch I can easily distinguish more so as there is more heroes to pick from but LESS teammates to keep track of plus skin changes can really make you look different
Siege and Arma would like to have a word with you...
Games that have factions with pretty much no visual identification and yet friendly fire is very rare.
16:40 I never noticed the difference in sentry beeps of each level lol
I noticed that minisentries always had a single beep but didn't realise that l2 and l3 were different
same with teleporters
I noticed the level 2s had two beeps but i didn't know the level 3s had 3 beeps
Although you're right in that the silhouettes in Overwatch can change with certain skins, it's important to adress that the animations play a huge part on identifying which character is which, especially the very distinctive walkstyles. The audio for footsteps and weapons also plays considerably louder for the enemy team, so as you get more experienced with each character, identifying them tends to be not that hard (of course there'll always be that clusterfuck of a teamfight where too much is happening at the same time)
Agreed. I don't look at silhouettes. I listen. If anything, those clusterfuck teamfights aren't caused by an oversaturation of color like everyone complains about, but rather an oversaturation of sound.
There's another technique that can be used: brightness and saturation
My favorite fps: *Dirty Bomb* (it's pretty much dead by now, rip), used lighter and different saturated color palette for enemies.
This have pretty neat effect of being pretty effective on every character, regardless of the cosmetics.
Also it's subtle enough for me to notice it until I found the slider on the cosmetics menu. So that's pretty cool I guess.
Coming from an overwatch player, I’ve never really had any problems with identifying players although I can see why some could. I do agree at times the game has too much visual clutter however.
When I got a new PC that could run Overwatch on decent settings, I was just astounded by the amount of bloom every light has, which I didn't feel were as bad when I played on low and 50% internal resolution. I actually think that fights are more visually confusing the higher the resolution seems, as the bloom takes less pixels on lower Res (or at least used to)
same when your playing / get good its never a problem
It's mostly that when coming from TF2 you gotta retrain yourself to be able to ignore some of the clutter and just focus on the player models without forgetting about the flashy abilities, TF2's lack of longlasting visual effects (except flamethrower) means that you get used to noticing an enemy straight away so you stop focusing on identifying enemy positions and begin to think about their behaviour and surroundings. You start to think "will that scout retreat if I damage them or will they continue, will they attack me if I pretend to focus on a different player" Overwatch's mechanics emphasize positioning and "frontline" type gameplay where you remain relatively static but try to outplay your opponents with the help of your team.
I was so hyped for Overwatch with it essentially seeming like a TF3 but even during the beta the insane visual clutter was probably single-handedly capable of souring the mood. Constantly questioning wtf is even happening isn't fun. Really makes you appreciate games with simpler designs. There's a lot of things this video didn't even touch on, but even in the details TF2 is way easier to take in such as with explosions. In TF2 explosions are translucent and only last a couple frames. In Overwatch they're super bright, non-see-through and last maybe a second. It's ridiculous. If anything OW has made me appreciate TF2 way more than before when I realized just how much you can do wrong.
@@Thornskade I do feel myself the visual clutter isn't that bad, combined with the FAR better maps results in knowing where people are isn't that much of a challenge.
I just noticed the Risk of Rain music playing in the background. Never knew Skymin knew Risk of Rain existed.
She played a lot of RoR2 when I last watched her streams
It's also important to mention animations when it comes to recognizability. Sure a Sniper can hard to tell from their silhouette, but the way Sniper holds his melee is unique from every other class.
Videos like this are ones i find the most interesting as its a pretty looked over, or a very sub-conscious thing. A game i would have added would have been Rainbow Six Seige as it, before skins, did a very good job with unique uniforms, even down to their boots/shoes being fairly unique.
Yeah but siege has really shitty audio
@@abudgie6909 not really, each gun has a unique sound and each gadget makes a unique sound too, ash Granada launcer is different from zofia Granada launcher
Asear Alruhaili so it’s fine when I hear someone right in front of me when they’re on a different floor? Or when a hibana sprints right past me in the other room and I don’t hear her with night mode on? Or when I’m trying to listen in a clutch situation but my feet moving when I turn my camera is the loudest audible sound. There’s another example that’s pretty indicative; bank, basement on the CCTV site. I was basically on the bomb chassis in a 1v1 and I didn’t hear the 2 SPEED Jäger sprinting in from garage hall until he was actually inside the room with me and I died. Don’t even get me started on the bug where your audio is completely inverted and you can’t hear anything on drones. I’ve had that about 4 times in the past month and the only way to fix it is a restart. Don’t even try telling me it’s on my end. I’ve had none of these issues in 600 hours of playing CS:GO. Edit: it’s also great how when they plant the defuser you hear beeping on the other site. Great audio design for new players. Not confusing at all.
When dead bird studio started to play i belived i had forgot a hat in time Running ahaha
Tf2 has one of the most iconic distinguished features ever. From the colours, to the silhouettes. To the materials that the 2 teams use in maps.
Now I don't play Rainbow Six: Siege; but a similar case study on its team specific classes seems like it would yield interesting results.
I unfortunately don't play Rainbow, so unless someone provided me with information and experience, I can't really make a video on it.
@@SkyminSlash that's fair enough
Hopefully someone who plays that game will somehow notice this video comment and apply the same logic
Siege goes for realism, (to an extent) and requires knowledge of your own team's activities to reduce friendly fire incidents. Fact is a game like that being able to recognize a character as being friend or foe requires knowledge of who your friends are, and where they should be.
It's just a part of your skill at the game, recognizing where teammates or opponents should be is a huge part of recognizing an opponent is.
Fact is target identification is a skill, games like TF2 or Halo utilize a simplistic system that supposedly focuses on other skillsets. Valorant (and Overwatch to what little extent that game actually matters in a discussion about skill and design) are games that mark outlines to take the "edge" off recognizing good vs. bad, but still require a basic knowledge and upkeep of teammate positions to make target acquisition better. Siege and CS:GO utilize slight variations of player models to make identification semi-difficult requiring an extremely high "situational awareness"
Essentially "situational awareness" is an Arma level word, it means how aware of the situation you are, obviously. It's a skillset that is important for high level players.
Good TF2 players could play blue vs. blue (or red vs. red) and not have trouble identifying enemies, so this segment of design class... is pretty much pointless. If you're a good player these "design" concepts are nothing but a crutch, or needless visual clutter.
In PvZ GW2 distinguishing its just in two teams, we have other characters with other abilities
The Hoovy Friend Everyone always seems to forget about the GW games. I think that the Garden Warfare games has the best team distinguishing. It’s got the different and distinguishable sounds like CSGO and noticeable different character changes like TF2. If anything, it’s more distinguishable sense it’s different characters all together rather than just a costume color.
Overwatch: Fast Speed
TF2: Normal Speed
CS:GO: Slow Speed
Yes, but cs:go has a very low ttk so it can sometimes be very fast-paced
Yeah you're a bit wrong on the CSGO one
csgo is not THAT slow.
Meanwhile in rainbow six:
"Wait that was an enemy??"
When you're playing overwatch it's not that bad but if you take a screenshot of a payload push with both teams present and fighting it looks like a clusterfuck
Basically easier to understand when playing rather than watching
I like how the game Rocket League did this:
For those who don't know, RL is a competitive,team-based ESport where you play soccer/football with rocket-powered cars.
There's a set Orange Team and a set Blue Team and based on what Team you are in,it automatically changes your car's paint job.
But here's the cool thing: You can customize that.
You can individually set a different shade of Orange and Blue for your car,and you can even equip different cosmetic items in the same slots for the Orange and Blue car.
It's like you're designing two versions of the same car.
That way,your team keeps a sense of unison,while at the same time allowing for expressive customization.
Yeah but there are monochrome decals like the season rewards and the pro team decals.
Finally a good PP, it’s been a while since someone slapped me in the face with their PP
Bastian hehe... peepee
Someone slapped you in your face with their what?
Hehehe.. PP
W h a t e x c u s e m e
hehe ᵖᵉᵉ ᵖᵉᵉ
8:07 i legit don't know which character that is
it's cancerman
i think it is hanzo
Lol last I paid attention to Overwatch adding skins there was a weird racer one, but I only saw a screenshot of it. To this day I have no idea if that was Reaper or Genji. It could genuinely be both.
It's Hanzo.
@clinicalia how?
One thing I liked when going from TF2 to Overwatch is that in Overwatch the enemy is always red. In games where you can be on any coloured team, I sometimes end up shooting the wrong colour cause I forgot about the team swap. Although TF2 has the class preview on the bottom so that's a quick way to check but other games which use a similar system (thinking of something like Mordhau) make it confusing to tell which team you're on sometimes.
Really surprised tf2's use of a consistent color palette to distinguish team silhouettes and map awareness never took off in other games. It's objectively good game design.
16:05 Silly skymin, that's the sound a Natacha makes, not a stock minigun! ... You know I see your point.
well,at least the sound does it's job
you recognized what weapon it is (i also did)
With CSGO the most valuable thing for identifying your team is the map. Any player worth his or her salt will know where their team is at almost all times. Though I completely agree that on a completely visual basis it is very hard to tell who is and isn’t on your team,
Yes, our eyes go to medic's crotch because of his "black belt"
I'd honestly like you to take a look into Raibow 6: Siege's character designs and how they distinguish teams. That game's character designs are basically the antithesis of everything that you've talked about here yet it still works somehow. Hell at one point, Bandit and Blitz looked identical and they're characters from opposing teams.
Remember that Reddit thread of a guy complaining that his teammates playing Buck killed him even if that was Frost ?
And throw in Valorant while we're at it.
ngl i kinda always accidentally call bandit blitz by accident a lot because them because the visor is a key visual for both characters
It's a thing called situational awareness, it's a skill required for high level shooters. It's why CS:GO pro's don't shoot their teammates even though halfway through the round they switch sides and have new models to associate with friend and foe.
Fact is, Arma and Siege are basically calling out Halo and TF2 players for not being able to keep track of where their teammates are. It kind of blows a massive hole in this video's though process... TF2 is basically "easy mode" for this particular skillset.
CS:GO doesn't have friendly fire incidents in pro play all that often, and the reason is... they're good players.
TF2 has a wildcard which is the spy, requiring people to have good sit awareness, but fact is it gets lessened when you turn off friendly fire and pyro check every teammate.
@@financialproblems9308 Bro blitz has a massive shield how can you confuse them + bandits visor is lifted up
Not gonna lie, listening to the sound effect of the tf2 weapons activated my fight or flight response.
last summer my headset died, and i was trying to play paladins with a friend, after 10 minutes i had to tell him that i have to take a break to add speakers. I had no idea whos where, but i atleast heard whats happoening.
I literally just started playing paladins
@@arya9509 good game, but expect bugs.
I did not know the beeping of a sentry gun indicated their level, that is very useful.
You forgot one thing... in Overwatch the enemy will always be the red one and you're always on the blue side, But in TF2 if you get auto-balanced you'll end up running into a sentry, CS:GO also has a midgame team switch but your team is always the one with a gun silhouette.
I'm so glad you used music from risk of rain in this video skymin! I love that game!
Now I’m not very good at any game but the Csgo gameplay was really...amazing for someone who doesn’t play it much. Incredible mollys, huge flicks, and reactions of a god
Thanks, I really try
-The Editor who knows he sucks at CSGO (and yes, it was actually me playing on a hella laggy server)
@@page_sr7180 dont woryr ima silver scrub too. head up king, and you will be global
I've been playing tf2 for 2 years and only now I learned that higher level sentry guns make more beeps
7:15 demopan be like
I know its unoriginal
With the state of the TF2 economy these days, it is basically a reality
The Plants Vs Zombies Garden Warfare games really just looked at this and said: "Oh, I know, just put different classes for different teams"
I know a game that does something diferent Vicious Circle, between mercenaries and monsters, being the mercenaries humanoid characters and the monsters being like masive chicken aliens, crabs, or even slimes
"CS:GO doesn't necessarily fall into this requirement, because it doesn't have a class system."
Karl Marx wants to: Know your location
de_nuke, B ramp
When you said stone wall jacksoned i died xD good civil war joke.
There's som neat ideas here! As I'm working on my own team and class-based game this video will come in handy :)
Thanks!
Huh, I never knew that about the lighting in TF2. That certainly does explains a lot! Great work conveying the information, it was very interesting
Also, you"re kinda lucky Chris Christodoulou (the guy behind the risk of rain OST) recently changed his attitude of using his music in other works. He was strictly against it not too long ago, and could take down videos featuring his music.
I have 600 hours on TF2 and never noticed the number of beeps of a sentry emitted was its level... xD
RIP Rick May to quote Soldier SCREAM'IM EAGLES
im slightly dissapointed you didnt talk about the PvZ shooters, Garden Warfare 1, 2, and Battle for Neighborville, GW does a pretty good job at identifying team members, distinguishing plants from zombies isnt too difficult, but identifying the different plants and zombies from one another is something the game does well, plants are fairly unique design wise, Peashooter has his large, cannon like snout sticking outward prominently, Sunflower has her large, petalled, head, Chomper has a big purple head with a big mouth, Cactus has her cylindrical body, Kernel Corn is tall and he has his Cob Busters from and center, Rose has an air of ellegance, and places specail emphasis on her wand, Citron is big and wide, with special attention being drawn to his laser cannon, same goes for the zombies, Foot Soldier is dressed in green clothes, his helmet and assault rifle help distinguish him best, Scientist has a while lab coat, big goggles, and white hair, Engineer wears a high vis vest, a hard hat, and his facial hair and fat body help distinguish him fairly easily, All-Star is the biggest member of the zombie team, wearing a bright red jersey and helmet with white pants and big shoulder pads, its not difficult to guess who's the heavy weight of the zombie team, Super Brainz has his large, muscular build, with massive fists, and purple spandex body suit, Imp is small, he has dual wielding Imp Blasters, and a bright orange suit, its not difficult to spot him, Captain Deadbeard has a very skinny body, a large pirate hat, and a white beard, meaning you cane asily spot him from affar, not to mention, each class has their own unique voices, that make it so that, even if you cant see them, you can tell who youre going up against, Peashooter has a kazoo sounding voice, which pairs well with his high mobility and high energy attitude, Chomper sounds ravenous and hungry, Sunflower sounds giggly and girly, Citron sound smooth and confident, Scientist sounds like a mad doctor, constantly giggling in his high pitched voice, All-Star sounds like a jock, his deep voice makes him sound tough, etc, not to mention, GW has a variation system, and its pretty easy to distinguish the different variants of each character, as they all look different from the main class, but you can still tell who's who, for example, Agent Pea has a large silencer sticking out of his snout, Plasma Pea has a beautiful color pallette that can distinguish him from any peashooter, BBQ Corn is wrapped up in aluminum foil, and his bright orange colors help distinguish him as the fire variant of Corn, the different zombies also do this, and their outfit and weapons are distinct enough to be able to tell them aprt, but are still clearly cut from the same cloth, General Supremo has a large Gatling Gun, Cricket Star has a pair of giant Cricket Paddles sticking out from the barrel of his gun, Breakfast Brainz's toaster helmet and waffle kneepads make him stand out significantly from the other superheroes, Captain Flameface's glowing hook and beard sets him apart from all other pirates
i have over 500 hours on tf2 and i never knew different level sentries make different beeping sounds, the more you know
Now I have urge to learn more about lighting.
over 400 hours in tf2 and i had no idea different sentry levels make different noises, thats actually so helpful
lets get out of context:
2:19 bottom part
*AY MEDIC I LIKE K-POP!*
K POP? MORE LIKE: K-POOP! XD
توقف عن قراءة هذا
We joke, but K-pop is an extremely disgusting industry. It exploits artists even more so than American music industries. I remember watching a documentary about the contracts they make people follow, and how they have camps for like 8 year olds to see who they can manipulate into being a star. And the music itself is pretty much brainwashing people into being happy with their mundane, shitty lives. * K-pop, and * the keebs who worship it.
That Risk of Rain soundtrack usage is a superb cherry on top of an already amazing cake. Kudos
Skymin Slash,
Well Done Video!
Insightful.
Aloha from Texas,
Dr. Liam Sullivan Stone, D.D., Ph.D., N.D.
Battlefield 4 uses a combination of colors (tans for USA, black for RUS, grey w/ red lines for CN), different models for each team + class, and team-exclusive outlines (unless the enemy is spotted)
it also uses different colors for teammates in your squad (green) than for teammates in other squads (blue)
combined with distinct weapon choices for each class (rifles for medic, smgs for engineer, lmgs for support, snipers for recon) you've got some pretty solid team differentiation
the only large drawback is the fact that you can equip other types of weapons for one class, like shotguns, carbines, dmrs, etc. which ruins the distinct firerates of each weapon type
insurgency (not sandstorm) is also pretty good at making different teams feel and look different, having completely different weapons for both teams, different combat roles and models for varying levels of armor
insurgents also get different voicelines compared to security forces, the latter of which are american
additionally, subtle map hints are used to show which side of the conflict you're on: destroyed humvees, apcs, etc. on your side usually means you're on security while insurgents are usually already dug into their turf with some minor exceptions
the sound design for the weapons for both sides is also pretty exceptional despite the realistic approach, to a first-time listener most of the gunshots may sound very alike, but subtle details like changes in pitch help ensure combat information is given the moment someone pulls the trigger
i gotta love comparing the strengths of games i love to each other, makes me appreciate them even more
*Shows Raum*
*Immediete Interest*
*Doesn't show Paladins again*
*"I feel lied to"*
I mean, if she talked about Paladins it would just be
"Same as Overwatch with less visual clutter and ults lines warning you that it's coming instead of telling you that it's already killing you."
I assume Paladins team differentiation is the same as Overwatch.
@@LeoSRL300 Pretty much.
I think one thing worth noting that wasn't said is how Overwatch uses colors to differentiate who's using what ability, and what an ability does. As a general rule, the colors and effects of an ability represent what it does.
Green effects mean speed, yellow is for healing, purple is used to show debuffs like anti-heal, hack, and discord, and blue represents barriers, and blue lighting effects represent damage boost. Of course some abilities break this rule, like winston's weapon shooting blue lighting.
Enemy team abilities/effects are colored red, making it easy to distinguish a friendly ability from a hostile one.
Overwatch's visual clutter can make this harder to see, but once you get used to it and know what you're looking for, it's a nice way to telegraph information to the player.
I hope Overwatch 2 fixes the team recognition problem and I would definitely like it if they decreased a lot of the flashing light effects from weapons and abilities.
Isn't OW2 PvE, making team recognition unnecessary?
@@herrbrain6700 OW2 also has PVP
i dont i dont think it ever was a problem i can clearly tell just by the outer line its not realy hard when you have over 1000 hours a change might make i harder for me
I can't believe I'm saying this but I think Overwatch tends to have more visual clutter than Team Fortress 2 ever did, despite TF2's often obnoxious cosmetics and unusuals.
@@jcdenton2187 it dose have more visual clutter even thow TF2 has far more cosmetics overwatch is cosmects change a lot more
Frankly, PvZ: Garden Warfare and its sequels do distinguishing the best, because each team has different characters
I did not expect Risk of Rain ost in the background
The transistor music is always the best choice
MORDHAU tried the TF2 approach with Red and Blue teams. But it has a fatal flaw: Characters get covered in blood to indicate damage. But there's also Friendly Fire, it's very easy to confuse a blue into a red and TK them due the excessive blood.
Battlefield 3 was also a masterclass in team distinction. I don't quite know how EA pulled it off, but you could tell player class and faction at a moment's notice in that game. Still now 10 years later, you could show me a Russian Engineer model for 1 frame and I could immediately tell you what character I just saw. They pulled that off and still managed to keep all the soldiers realistic looking. It was so satisfying.
Garden warfare did it better
Big RIP for Paladins
Why?
4:09 Nice use of the Spongebob Transition.
I prefer TF2's recognition since it can work even when downscales.
Ever tried to play CS or OW on low resolution? It's harder to tell which team is which, where as in TF2 is you see red or blue on their model you can tell the team, same goes for their silhouette and posture, you can tell each class even when running at low resolutions.
I know this since I was stuck with a low-mid specs laptop to play with for years, and an even older PC before that. Didn't stop me in playing TF2 for years but certainly made playing other FPS games harder, and when I got OW it only made my experience with the game worse, to say the least.
The enemy outline is barely visible when at low resolution and the visual noise just makes it hard to focus on something in particular, like, let's say, their healer. When I played it at higher resolutions, the outline problem was dimished but the noise just made it unbearable to play for more than a couple games.
That's something I think TF2 benefits from with it's cartoonier, simpler art style (a few seriously obnoxious cosmetics aside) - it's basically potato proofed.
@@jcdenton2187 yup, I even remember seeing a video of TF2 on a resolution equivalent of 16bit.
I think it was a joke video, resolution drops on each death or something like that.
In summary, the guy was fighting pixels but I could still tell team and class even at such ridiculously low resolution.
@@rowleto played on 900×7(something) for years.
I feel for your friend
i play cs in 4:3 1280x1024 and i dont have any trouble seeing who is my teammate and who is an enemy. and you really cant compare cs, tf2 and ow in gameplay since cs is way more strategic than the cartoon games