Game of Thrones: Why Daenerys Was Cersei All Along - Two Sides of the Same Queen
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2024
- Go to nordvpn.com/thetake and use code thetake to get 75% off a 3-year plan. Protect yourself online today! | As it turns out, Daenerys Targaryen and Cersei Lannister are two sides of the same queen all along, even if they start out essentially as opposites. The final showdown between these two queens has always been the endgame, and their conflict reveals the true message about Game of Thrones. If you like this video, subscribe to our channel or support us on Patreon: / thetake
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idiots lol
I tweeted at HBO about half an hour before this came back up so.... you're welcome.
Could you please do an analysis of GoT's female characters use of femininity as a form of power particularly Cersie and Sansa??
Glad to see this up again!
analysis of chuck rhodes from billions
analysis avon barksdale from the wire
I'm not mad about Danny becoming the Mad Queen like her father becoming Mad King. She was meant to be one under her circumstances. I just hate how poorly it was executed in season 8. They needed another season to build that character change but instead, they squeezed it In in one episode.
That was what I hated, too. I knew she was meant to be the Mad Queen, but it felt like D&D kind of forgot until season 8. There was no bridge leading up the The Bell moment. Their excuse was she "forgot" and then just saw red... There were some things she did in earlier seasons that shows she's not someone you want to cross, but she always had boundaries. In season 8, those boundaries and morals she had were just stripped because "oh yeah she's supposed to be the mad queen. Let's have her burn down an entire town because she just snapped and lost her mind"
@Silver Lady They're not, though. George will probably write the same thing: Dany burning King's Landing. But it'll make sense since fAegon will be involved and Dany's descent won't be rushed.
@Silver Lady Why? It makes perfect sense for her character arc. It was just executed horribly by D and D.
I have a feeling that power destroyed her kindness.
But some people feel that dany should never go mad
She was always like that
Bend the knee or die
Blind fans have no sense
Now both died in the arms of their lovers as well.
Incestuous lovers too.
Gross. Jon was not fit to be Daenery's lover.
@@myriadzvids but she's his queen??
They also love their children although I'd say Dany loves her's more unconditionally.
@@caroldowning5964 I'd argue it's the other way around. Cersei still tried to at least pretend that her kids (cough joffrey cough) were completely fine, whereas Dany actually punished them when they acted out.
The issue isn’t the plot points. The issue is the execution. Imagine if the Red Wedding happened and we had no build up.
There was buildup though. Since the first season. Her main ambitions have always been to kill the men in iron suits and their stone houses. To lay waste to her enemies who have wronged her. (Westerosi people, especially houses Lannister,Stark,Baratheon). To take what is hers (iron throne) through fire and blood.
The rest is all political moves to gain the power to ultimately attain her main ambitions.
@@joetyrant4713 remember how turned on she got when Drogo was talking all that shit?
@@SCHMALLZZZ she looked like she was getting off on it lol
@@joetyrant4713 You dont get the point. Again, its not about the plot, its about the execution.
She literally turned into rage mode from one sec to another. If they just would have killed her second dragon while the fight in kings landing instead of in that silly szene at the sea, it would have made 10000% more sense that she turns red and attacks everything. But like this? Just poorly written.
Im no one who hates an ending just cause it didnt turn out like I wanted, at example I like the thought of Dany becoming a mad queen. But you just cant deny that the entire season 8 is just full of plotholes, movie mistakes and overall poorly written character development. I could go on for hours to count all of that bs the writers did.
@@realglutenfree I don't deny that it was rushed. What other people don't seem to grasp is that Dany didn't go mad. She planned to burn down Kings Landing beforehand on multiple occasions. The "bells" moment was when she finally decided to do it, you could see her expression as she was in conflict with herself on the inside. In the end, she chose to "save" the future generation of KL by turning the current one to dust, as a message to the rest of westeros. The message was to obey or die, since she didn't feel loved there. Dany was my favorite character, and I saw this coming from seasons before. I almost gave up on them finally spreading her wings as a conqueror. Turns out they finally had the balls to do it in KL.
In the books, Daenerys’s hair was burned off when she was in the fire, so she was supposed to have short hair like Cersei did after her trip through the streets
That would be true to the books, yes, but also kinda stupid. If Dany's skin and nails don't burn, there's no reason for her hair to.
Yeah, they know that her sex appeal is the main reason her character is popular 😂
@@solidsnake9898 Sure, Dany's stoic brooding in her formal wear throughout the show is very sexy. 🙄 She is the furthest thing from a sex symbol I can imagine, dude, so her "sex appeal" you think supposedly explains her popularity is probably just your attraction to the actress/character. Most of us DON'T use our dicks to decide our favorite characters are though, since the target audience for GOT isn't 12 year old boys like yourself. At least I assume you are, because if you're an adult man talking like this, that's just fuckin embarrassing for you. Either way, grow up, would ya?
"You want to rule? This is what ruling is, lying in a bed of weeds and ripping them up by the root one by one before they strangle you in your sleep." what a great line.
You can see the difference between what GRRM writes v. what D&D write.
@@jmchez my issue with a lot of the complaints about this season is when people act like Dan and Dave literally just showed up into the set and started writing the show when in reality they're the ones behind why this show is so successful. They've been on this since 2007. That's when the contracts were signed. And a lot of the best moments in the series were 100% Dan and Dave creations. Arya and Tywin at Harron Hall in season 2? 1000% not in the books and 1000% Dan and Dave. So many small moments and great moments like Cersie blowing up the Sept where 1000% Dan and Dave's creations. "I choose violence" was Dan and Dave so I get the need to want to shit on them and pretend they're talentless hacks but without them this show wouldn't exist.
@@Paul94096 Thank you
Great line and totally true to Cerci, but only a consequence of rulership under some regimes , not in any way what what the word means.
@@Paul94096 Equally funny is the idea that things are now "bad" because none of the fan expectations, fueled by a year of theorizing using LOTR logic to square a GOT plot, were close to right.
Cersei is the oldest of the three children, Dany is the youngest. Cersei has a relationship with her brother, while Dany thought she was going to marry her brother. They are really inverse mirrors. Your video really enlightened me. Thank you.
Roxanne Blair it's just for clicks. It's lame as fuck.. Grrm can't even keep a straight plot nor write nor finish his own fucking books lol.. Sansa and Cersei are a better comparison! Dany and Cersei are similar in revenge and also very different, I don't get the piloint of thos click bait shit but I came here to tell Jon book readers it's obvious that Jaime and Cersei are Targaryens, it's so set up in the books. Grrm openly said he changed plot threads halfway through to avoid the obvious. But the truth is, it's clear barely anyone else noticedthis one, unless all the obvious signs were another accident by dumb ass overrated Grrm.
Daenerys actually had alot more older siblings that just arent mentioned and died.
@@doxasophosmoros The amount of hate you just put on GRRM is incredibly annoying... Without him, there would be no Game of Thrones in the first place. I can't understand why people refuse to see what a hard work creating something is, and hating on him for not doing it the way you want to is not gonna change anything.
@@doxasophosmoros How is this a click bait video when they analyzed how Dany and Cersei are alike as the title *clearly* mentioned. And how the heck did you come up with the idea that Jaime and Cersei are Targaryens? You're just making up stuff now. Point of fact is that GRRM created an amazing story that I'm very well sure YOU wouldn't have had the imagination and ingenuity to come up with. Don't blame him if you hate aspects of the show blame D&D.
@@doxasophosmoros Nah, it's correct. I agree with the parallels between Sansa and Cersei as well. The biggest comparison between Dany and Cersei? Entitlement. They felt this is what they should have, whether they deserved it or not.
I've always found it fascinating how unforgiving people were of Cersei simply because she refused to be a victim to her circumstance (people seemed to hold her accountable for the things the men in her family did). Historically, women in positions like hers HAD to assert their power this way. From emperors' wives in Rome to medieval aristocracy. Cersei is, sadly, historical reality. She could be a doormat or she could be a monster. We're lucky we don't have to limit ourselves to that anymore.
The worst part is ALL the bad shit her male family members (Jaime, Joffrey, Tywin) did was mentally dumped right on her by the fans. I haad to convince my friend that it was not Cersei who convinced Jaime to push Bran. The number of actual evil deeds done directly by her is pretty meagre (Lady, outsmarting Ned, ratting on Margaery, Sept, Missandrei), especially compared to Dany's trail of corpses.
@@SerbAtheist Cersei only does the worst of her deeds to survive or protect her children with the exception of killing Missandei. Ned telling everybody her secret was going to make Robert execute her and all 3 of her kids. She thought Margaery was manipulating Tommen. She blew up the Sept because she was going to be executed along with Margaery and Loras otherwise and it eliminated the Faith Militant.
I don't completely agree. You could also be like Margaery and Olenna. There are more smart, and human ways, to be strong.
@@freikorps7799 who said that, the voices you hear in your head?
@@chichi77tim I was just about to say that.
Anyone who desires power with such eagerness is bound to be a despot. Period. That is what real history shows.
For real...I suspect too many of the currently outraged forgot that this wasn't LOTR.
I guess both Sansa and Bran are bound to become despots. I guess Robb would have become a despot if he had lived and remained "King of the North". I guess Jon would have become a despot if he had remained "King of the North".
Didn‘t Martin once say: A villain is a hero of the other side. (?)
Close...the villain is the hero in his own story.
@@johnathonhaney8291 No, he actually said "the villain is the hero of the other side."
Michelle Hodkin said "the villain is the hero in his own story"
@@MyaB1986 Ah...thank you for the correction!
G.R.R.M. says a variation of that in nearly every interview with him. For example:
Nobody is a villain in their own story. We're all the heroes of our own stories.
"George R. R. Martin Interview GAME OF THRONES" by Christina Radish, Collider (17 April 2011)
Martin has also been very vocal about how he wanted to deconstruct all the tropes of fantasy which he's gotten tired of. Including issues he felt with Tolkien's work, who although he adores and owes everything he has and the entire modern fantasy genre to believes taught some problematic lessons that every fantasy story is trapped in today. For example it's depiction of good vs evil.
The battle between Good and Evil is a theme of much of fantasy. But I think the battle between Good and Evil is fought largely within the individual human heart, by the decisions that we make. It’s not like evil dresses up in black clothing and you know, they’re really ugly. These are some of the things that Tolkien did; he made them work fabulously, but in the hands of his imitators, they become total clichés. I mean the orc-like creatures who always do dress in black and... they’re really ugly and they’ve got facial deformities or something. You can tell that if somebody’s ugly, he must be evil. And then Tolkien’s heroes are all very attractive people and all that, of course, again this became cliché in the hands of the Tolkien imitators.
"GRRM Interview Part 2: Fantasy and History", interview with TIME Entertainment (18 April 2011)
Much as I admire Tolkien, and I do admire Tolkien - he’s been a huge influence on me, and his Lord of the Rings is the mountain that leans over every other fantasy written since and shaped all of modern fantasy - there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, Good versus Evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don’t need any more Dark Lords, we don’t need any more, ‘Here are the good guys, they’re in white, there are the bad guys, they’re in black. And also, they’re really ugly, the bad guys.
It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts. We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at.
AssignmentX interview (June 2011)
When George R.R. Martin says some variation of these beliefs in nearly every interview and is very open about his political views as a liberal, a conscientious objector, and opponent to imperialism and wars of "intervention" is it any wonder at all how the story turned out?
I figured out that Daenerys would become the primary villain after reading the third book and listening and reading dozens of interviews with Martin.
Burning innocents makes a villain on both sides. It felt like a hollow turn to the dark side, unfortunately.
I swear George RR Martin is actually from an alternate universe. These people are too real to be fictional.
I think it's because he did base some of the characters from historical figures.
Maybe GRRM is actually the Grand Maester of Westeros.
@@jenniferbrewer5370 Grand Maester on the week-days, and Dungeon Master on the weekends.
Well. They ARE based on real people.
This video is cringe lol, you can draw more between Jon and Dany or Sansa and Dany,or Sansa and Arya, and Arya an Cersei, and Cersei and Brienne! What a joke!!!
I think, what really sets them appart is that Cersei knows she's awful and that she's hurting people, Cersei doesn't see herself as a savior, meanwhile Daenerys ACTUALLY thinks she is doing the right thing, that she's this special and rightful queen that everyone should love and accept, and that no matter what she does, it's good.
I thinks that's one of the most important things that set them really appart in narrative points. Specially because with Daenerys we only have her point of view all the time, so of course she's gonna defend her choices and make them seem good, but if you step aside, you can see that's she an actual conquerer and not a ruler. It's just interesting tbh.
N. Astorga yup, Cersei knows who and what she is and she’s not afraid of it. Biggest reason I’ve always liked Cersei and hated Dany. Dany likes to pretend she’s so innocent and loving and well intentioned but it’s just not true.
Jon: How do you know? How do you know it (the world) will be good?
Daenerys: Because I know what's good. And so do you.
Jon: No, I don't.
As soon as you assume knowing things as what's good, moral, right to do, you've lost the "game".
@@edienandy Dany was all of that. Her problem was her arrogance, the way she always thought the throne was hers just because it was her father's, she failed to see that, yes, other houses dethroned her father, but he imposed himself as king as well. The fault in Dany was that she wanted the throne obsessively and that drove her to madness, but she wanted it at the beginning to do good with it. She was well intended.
But what good has Cersei ever done. Greed, murder, death, pettiness, self serving. Dany can also be ruthless but you can also point to actions she took to free other people from slavery as examples of overwhelming good for the people. She also lent her army to fight the night king and white walkers.
@@isaacm2374 The thing is, you can argue that Dany did those things for her sake, disguised as benevolence. She freed the slaves when she couldn't afford an army and in the books, she even went back to slavery to take profit from it, because she didn't know how to rule because she's a conqueror, not a ruler. She prisoned Jon when he asked for help until they 'fell in love', and if she wanted to rule the 7 kingdoms, defeating the night king was a must, not kindness. And I truly believe ppl see this as 'goodness' because contrary to Cersei, we only have Dany's point of view during the majority of her journey. When she arrives at Westeros, and the North, we can see how much her decisions are based on her own ego and narration.
I have actually never noticed how Dany asked more of Jon than Cersei, and how her burning the Khals was basically the same as Cersei blowing up the sept. It really is all a matter of presentation and perspective, and now I understand why upon reading the books, after Daenerys has been my favorite character since the beginning, I have suddenly come to love Cersei too instead of hating her like I did - they really aren't that different. Very interesting video that doesn't over-exaggerate either perspective like some others I've seen, thank you!
Gotta watch this quick before HBO gets salty
15:18
Same!
@@leonluke3659 i can't pause fast enough to see it... :(
@@leonluke3659 what happens at 15:18 ??
We
I thought the part about Cersei becoming more humanized when she lost power was interesting.
Cersei was love and loved. That how she was redempted just before her death.
Daenarys was idolize and didn't not really know what was love. That how she was doom. Turning a misfortune slavery into love by pleasure is the best she could do but this isn't love. Not more then her brother protecting her was a demonstration of good hart. And yet, she tried to demonstrate love to Jon the same way Viserion and Drogo did. She reject the idea to share the thrones with Jon like Viserys did it for himself and she destroy King Landing to prove to Jon her love like Drogo promised to do.
Daenarys, she named her dragons Viserion and Drogon showing demonstrating an hommage to the ideal of those two was that were supposed to be her family and love
cersei showed more heart and feelings than dany did , in the end dany was just like gollum.
Actually, that's what I liked about that episode. An unpopular opinion but Cersei finally had to forcibly become what she have masked for such a long time because she was alone now, all her power came from people who either stood by her or her royalty. She lost both of those now.
She was just a scared little rat if she had won she would have been the first to laugh an applauded herself , the Lannesters took Kingslanding from the Targaryans Tywin betrayed Aires he was his hand an friend
@@sansaqueen2670 I don't think so she had a good heart an realy luved Jon as he realy luved her they were ment to be together as Ice an Fire
How refreshing. Somebody with original, insightful content on the season and not just another rant video with sensationalized, hyperbolic nonsense to drive clicks.
Yes
"ThEsE pEoPlE aRe BrInGiNg Up VaLiD CrItIcIsMs AnD i DoN't LiKe It So ThAt MeAnS iT's HyPeRbOlIc NoNsEnSe"
TL_Nik0n “WaAaAaAaAAh!!!111 DD BaD!!1 ThEy RuInEd GoT!!!!111 ThE wHoLe ShOW iS gArBaGe NoW!!!!111”
"one is born with nothing to lose, the other is born with everything to lose" OMG ITS HAMILTON AND BURR.
Exactly
“He has something to prove, he has nothing to lOoOse”
How do you know about Hamilton a year ago, I thought that play was this year?
@@octoberboiy it came out on Disney plus this year, but it's been on Broadway for a few years!
@@thappippenne215 I had no idea. I had a friend who went to see it in New York in January so I assumed it was a new play from 2019 or something.
I don't hate that Dany was made to be a mad queen. I just think that the execution of this reveal was clumsy, rushed, and unearned.
It's almost like your analysis applies more to the yet unwritten novel rather than the shitty show we have to settle with now.
Ya--I think they are giving the show tooooo much credit here. I liked the video and analysis tho. But this season is in way too big a hurry to get to the end, and is leaving us without the character development that was so prevalent at the beginning (which is a HUGE part of why the show was great).
Yeah I agree. The idea the show presents is crucial and makes a lot of sense, but the compressed feel of the series currently ruins the sense of momentum the show was gaining towards the end.
Except everything they did was from the show. It means you are just mad and disappointed. The writing of the show completely justifies what happened as this video proves.
if you watch danys and cerceis point of view stories without all the other characters getting in the way, the reveal is there, I always felt daenerys wasn't that great for instance
People keep saying "the execution was bad". You just have selective amnesia or you just cant interpret what happened.
Danny since the beggining had one thought on her head "I'll burn cities to the ground". But. The thing people seem to forget is that she has always had voices saying otherwise: Joras, Tyrion, Varys, Jon.
So... 1 of em dies and the 3 others are traitors at her eyes (Varys did betray her even though she asked him to tell her when she was being unfair to people). What were you expecting??? Oh not to mention besides losing Joras, she's lost Missandei and 2 children (dragons).
People are missing the cues because they want to and are blaming on the show's writting.
One thing we can all agree is that it is rushed, I mean... The so feared cold war ended so quickly... Varys from "stealth master" to openly talking about treason, Tyrion from "smart" to dumb af, and Jon is now Danny's bitch. But Danny's thing. Nah. That was predictable.
I actually never noticed this duality, awesome video!
It is actually wrong with at least 1 example. It praises Cersei for asking for Neutrality at the truce meeting about the White Walker army. But Cersei was simply dishonest as shown by the preplanned Euron secret transport more mercs (to fight Daenerys) mission. Also Cersei didn't send a force to save Jon Snow before he bent the knee, that was Daenerys on her dragons. I wouldn't be surprised if other examples from this video are just as wrong.
The similarity is in their mentality. They both had a fixation about ruling which was based on anger and revenge and which in the end led to their demise.
@@Imunclean
Interesting thought. Though we don't know what plot insanity was going on in Dany's mind for the TV series (at least not yet) that made her burn the city. I've seen the showmakers claim it was a split 2nd decision I've seen claims she wanted to be feared. Either way its bad and just dumb. Burned what was going to be her biggest city and any survivors will hate her.
@javialacarga Some details are indeed doubtful, however I think many of them were actually accurate (the methods use, the self-centered point of view, ...)
@javialacarga someone is hella bitter 😂 it definitely is way more than cherry picking, the parallels are numerous.
This is like Queen Elizabeth vs Mary queen of Scots in the 1580's.
Mary was young and stupid but Elizabeth was a bitter cruel woman who could not see happiness in others.
@@saptakmukherjee3051 bitter cruel woman????? Bitter, perhaps because of her childhood. Cruel........for her time, id say not. Hapiness in others, depends. If your talking of her actions then obviously. She'd witness firsthand how vulnerable seemingly invulnerable people are and she herself nearly lost her life due to conspiracy. So yeah. Bitter cruel woman she had to be to survive and usher in the Golden Age
@@antonyandrewson5803 Elizabeth is pure evil.That inbred queen had an affair with a married man.That bitch is a homewrecker and is currently burning in Hell.
Yes but Queen Elizabeth had a long reign, Dany didn't even get 2 sit on the damn Throne!
@@christophertracy7272 Yes Elizabeth was a long reigning tyrant.
Daenerys Stromborn is a cautionary tale. GRRM hid her among ruthless villains and we cheered for her when she punished them without realising GRRM is telling us time and time again humanity is bound to fail to recognise the making of a complex villain until it's too late.
Perfect approach!! I also think that not only GRRM always planned this finale for Danny but also it was one of the main reasons to write this story. He wanted to teach us how villains can look, how they can rise, how they can be fed. I 'm so dissapointed when I see so many GoT "fans" moaning about how season8 ruined Danny. That WAS Danny all the way through. She perfectly served her goal as a character. The lesson is served. Some people are just not ready to listen.
YES
I agree. Furthermore, I think the message is to beware of people regarded as Messiah’s.
Thank God somebody finally got it! I see so many stupid comments about how the show rushed her descent in the darkness and one episode. While we had warning signs throughout the entire series. The final catalyst or the straw that broke the camel's back was her seeing her best friend and confidant beheaded in front of her basically by the woman she hates. Dani wanted to crush Cersei's pride and ego. Cersei used the innocents of the civilians to get an advantage. Dani at that point was DONE being undermined and underestimated. Her rage, pride, and hubris got the best of her.
@@wadewilson8011I think 8x5 is an ICONIC episode of television lol Lady Olena telling her to stop fucking around and BE A DRAGON!!
No clue why HBO wanted to take this video down, honestly makes the writing choices of this season seem more acceptable.
What for real?. For what reason? This is an hommage not a rant.
Wat?
Trey D HBO actually said they would renew the show for 10 full seasons, the writers refused and said they could do it with 6 episodes in season 8
Trey D How do you know HBO wanted to take it down?
@@Lepidopterous. If it was threatened with a take-down it was probably some algorithm fuck-up or something. The big companies love these shill channels. They always make the shows seem better than they actually are.
Yes! The triumphant return of this video!! So so glad you got to post it again
they were idiots for removing it
What happened?
@@Finndu exactly!! I am asking this too and no reply :( ...ironically, it is one of their best ones
Yeah I was watching it, paused, went to do something, and when I came back it was gone! What happened?
The video wasn’t removed on purpose, they got got by HBO real quick but they got it back up so I can only assume good news
Wow, this is the ONLY video I've seen that makes the last season actually make sense to me! (And it adds such a logical layer to the whole series overall)
Silver Lady it needed more seasons and not to happen in just one episode
I've always seen Dany and Stannis mirroring each other. Both obsessed with and feel entitled to the throne. Both think they are destined for something greater. Both are believed by Red Priestesses to be the prince/princess that was promised. Both burn people.
Both operated from dragonstone
With the difference that stannis doesnt sit in a tent when theres a battle. Hes always with his people.
@@alman8908 Dany fought with her people too though
@@jamient on a dragon on air....Stannis was on the ground like every other soldier
JamieNTT when? When she was sitting on her flying fortress aka drogon who only she is capable of controlling?
HBO should never have taken this down.
It's one of the few positive spins on the material, so seriously WTF?
J Films While HBO allow the haters.
I think hate is a great marketing now
What?! Why??!
They took the original video down?
You must mean HBO/ATT! Same corporation...
HBO would take down a video justifying the writing of the show.
Jimmy Brooks while they allow the hate videos to continue.
Really makes you think the power of haters marketing
@@victoriannecastle D&D stands for Dick and Douche
I mean, for the most part, it's the writing of George. He's the one who set these parallels up to lead to this finale.
@ do you have a copy of winds of winter? I sure dont, so dont blame on materials in non-existence to a author has not pen down a sentence. Two junior cash grabbing writters whom have focus on their pet projects rather than finishing what make them, should suffer the worst criticism for their greed.
@ I don't think anybody in his right mind is against the ending in general. Night king dies and Dany goes mad is something we can accept. It's the journey that tries to reach to this conclusion that D&D fucked with their lazy writing for THIS season (and to some extent the last one). I still believe even if the books go for the same thing it is going to be a lot better. If they ever get out that is of course. I hope they do; GOT deserves better writing, storytelling and character development instead of Arya flying to kill Night King simply because it is something nobody expected (as mentioned in the commentary of the episode) and then wandering around the Kings Landing dying at least 8 times while Cersi is crying out of nowhere and Dany went mad in literally 5 seconds. Not to mention Jaime, Tyrion, Euron, Bran etc.
Daario was right about Daenerys 100% when he said she’s not meant to be a queen, she’s a conqueror. She enjoyed “running” for the throne, she would NOT have even enjoyed sitting on a chair all day talking about sanitation or housing - aka actually doing the work.
Its also interesting how Sansa is an inverse to Dany and her journey.
Sansa wants nothing more than to get back to her home, Winterfell. But she has to disguise herself because her hair gives her away. She has to reach out for help from multiple people to make the journey: Littlefinger, Theon, Brienne.
Whereas Dany tries to journey to a land she’s never been to: Kingslanding. As the days and months pass, her army and her allies grow. She doesn’t have to hide, she rides her horses and her dragons among her armies proudly.
I like this.
Now that you mentioned it, YES.
Sansa always wanted to be queen she backstabbed her family (season 1) and used her northern people as pawns (the butchers boy, the wildings, the minor houses) to get there, when she realised shit doesn’t go her way outside of the north she wanted to go back to where she had privilege and power. Her idea of “home” is somewhere she can walk over the people, somewhere people don’t pick on her because she’s the top dog.
@@MagicSecretsandMysteries She was 11.After knowing Joffery's real nature she had no wish to be a queen and she wanted nothing buy to get back home.Stop lying to justify Danny's madness.
@@apieceoflife2732 sansa always went with people who could give her power after she was freed from Ramsey she went back to take winterfell and then went onto establish it as it's own kingdom... sansa from the very beginning craved to be queen and every action she has done was to elivate her status (she talks about caring for the north men but was happy to watch them die whilst she was waiting for the vale) but its obvious sansa stans won't see it that😂
So Drogon is gonna jump off the Red Keep?
I would laugh so hard. Please let them make this a thing. It might save the season.
That’s why they call it “King’s Landing.” ;)
Will Reddish dro-gone with the wind.
And he would fly because he's a dragon...
Will Reddish there is no red keep anymore
It's funny you called two sides of the same queen because early on in the start of got cersei said when a targaryen is born the gods flip a coin on each side of the coin is madness or greatness
In both their cases, the coin landed on the wrong side.
@@johnathonhaney8291 Except with Jon, he's not seeking power and he's a Targeryan too, thats the twist.
@@yutarokida We're only talking about them, though. Jon is a very special case.
@@johnathonhaney8291 Im saying it in a good way. there's a lot of twists in Dany's choice and Jon in one of the foils and that's great.
The gods flip a coin and the Realm holds it’s breath .
as little finger once said "Cersei is good at obtaining power but not at handling it" its the same as dany she gets power quickly but quickly we see her downfall
its interesting to me that Dany ended up inflicting so much more suffering on people than cersei ever did. I feel like in some way because she believed in her greatness and goodness it enabled her to do something like that. and somehow I hate her more for it. even though cersei was an absolute witch the whole 8 seasons, she had the redeeming quality of being honest and knowing what was important to her. she kind of had a "this is what Im like and I don't care what anyone thinks" kind of attitude. whereas daenerys had lofty ideals but was not grounded and was able to trick everyone, even herself, into thinking she had the people's best interests at heart.
josski32 Dany made HERSELF the moral code. Nope.
Yup, Cersei is completely comfortable with who she is and Dany has to lie to herself and rationalize and justify everything.
This is why I loved Cersei and the Lannister's in general. They were honest to the point of making people extremely uncomfortable.
I think she thirsts for the greater good, some aloof idea that never becomes tangible. She also wants power, not justice
If THAT makes you hate Dany more than Cersei then your loyalty is very wavering and I feel bad for your friends
Love the LOTR similarity you made. The closer Daenerys got to taking the throne, the more ruthless and bloodthirsty she becomes, culminating in the burning of King’s Landing. She definitely has a dangerous obsession with power and most likely feels like she is no-one without it and uses it to validate her existence and purpose in life. The loss of her two dragons, the very living and breathing symbols of her power and destiny, most likely made her realise that without power, she is nobody and means nothing to anyone. Hence why she decided to burn the capital: not because she is mad or mentally unstable, but because in that moment, the identity crisis she has been struggling with since marching on Slaver’s Bay has taken its most dangerous form. She believes that the only way she will fulfil her destiny and keep her power is if the people fear her and see her as a near god-like being that should be given obedience to.
Her end game path was inevitable . .you cannot get people to respect you through singing kumbayas n holding holds. Fear/power go hand in hand in GOT. The History of Men says so!
@@evakalz6338
Yes value of power is related to fear in psychology.
People focusing on power need to play with the fears of other while they express their superiority by anger (aggression is linked to anger ), it can be subtle, by manipulation or by crude violence.
Peoples focusing on power have psychopath , or narcissistic or paranoiac tendencies ( or are plainly ), they have a dangerous potential. One psychologist for example said that every president of the USA are either psychopath ( ex : Trump and Bush junior ) or narcissistic ( ex : Obama and Clinton ).
If all goes along their expectations they can look cool, but while their expectations are not met they can show their worst side.
And Daenerys was seeing all her expectations already gone ( friends and children, love from common peoples in westeros , etc.... ) or going away in the near future ( John on throne named king , instead of her ).
@Preverbal The lure of power cannot be stated enough. Once you start to crave it it draws you in with seemingly no way out. Power is Power
Time to burn those weeds
What utter nonsense. What culminated in the burning of King’s Landing’s was not Dany’s approach to taking the throne, but her listening to the ideals of naively pacifistic idiots who kept trying to shove their Mary Sue crap down her throat and screwed her over at every turn. Had she just trusted her own instincts and attacked King’s Landing when she wanted to after the Tyrells fell, she would have had no reason to snap after the bells rung because practically all the people she lost would still be alive right now. *Loss* is what causes her to deteriorate and anybody paying attention to her mental and physical transformation upon each loved one’s death could put that together.
Are you seriously trying to say the reason she was upset about her dragons dying was because of her loss of power, that power is the primary concept they represent to her? *Wrong.* If she was really as power hungry as people like you so desperately try to paint her, she would have never locked her dragons away when they started killing children because in that very act she was sacrificing her power. The loss she felt after losing her dragons was, obviously, because they were her children, not her nukes. She birthed them, nurtured them, and worked to earn their respect, Drogon in particular. Some other fool tried to imply that she was nothing without the power Drogo gave her back in the very first season, a member of the Dothraki, and as she literally states herself, she has *never* seen herself as nothing. Even without her dragons, stranded and alone, she still had the sense of self worth to endure being captured by the Khals instead of wallowing in self pity and panic due to her loss of power because she knows better than to think she is nothing without it. Her wits and cunning in Astapor are what secured the Unsullied. Her killing the other Khals without the help of her silly dragons are what secured the Dothraki. If she was truly as obsessed with her sense of identity as the heir to the Iron Throne, she would have left Jon to die at the hands of the Night King rather than save him yet again even after discovering he had the stronger claim.
The return of this vid is more hyped than the series finale
Why was it taken down?
@@senju31 HBO took it down.
In the end, I actually preferred Cersei to Dany. Apart from the fact, as Tyrion acknowledges, she didn't dispatch anything like the numbers Dany did, Cersei didn't have a saviour/Messiah complex. She never had any delusions that she was a good, just ruler delivering the world from evil.
Dany had become addicted to being worshiped. That is a very dangerous addiction.
I couldnt bring myself to hate Cersei no matter what she did even after she killed margarine , I really did love Cersie as a character
@@givemeliberty700 Margarine 🧈 😂😂😂
@@jdsthird 😅😆😂 I just realized what I spelled lmao it's 3 a.m I'm high as fuck this is killing me🧈🧈🧈
The difference is that Daenerys keeps getting what she wants while Cersei keep losing what she has. In the end, they both lose.
Just wanted to take a moment to compliment you guys on the editing of this video.
The reaction shots and comparative split screens were executed with absolutely genius timing.
My dear ladies, I'm relieved beyond words on how much sanity you have injected into the present moment. Given that you're one of the few UA-camrs giving a positive spin on GOT right now, I'm still at a loss on why you got the strike.
Allthoguh I think this season has been the weakest in writing I agree with you.
@@Alexander-kc8oq - i mean episode 2 was amazing writing, but overall yeah - i'm not mad at the overall plot, i'm not blind as to why Daenarys acted the way she did, but they're pushing it along too fast and it sucks that we don't see everything unfolding as cleverly as we have before. I do like this video a lot for its conversation on power and how power corrupts
The positive spin is them turning the failure of writing into a solid theory. It seems like a very solid theory but man the writing has badly reached this point.
@@Rosy2468 The visuals and cinematography, the score, the technical effects: absolutely perfect.
The story is just a vessel for those visuals with no substance.
Her turn was fully expected for a long time, especially among book readers. But not like that, that was rushed...
They did almost and hour of setup in the season for things that were dropped later.
@@Henbot Your refusal to accept that this actually happened is what keeps clouding your judgment. Go huddle with the rest if you want reassurance...you'll get none from me.
FINALLY a fair analysis of Daenerys' character. THANK YOU. To frame her as "just good" or "just bad" undermines the roundness and grayness of her character. Thank you for getting it right! 🙌
didnt she kill bunches of opponents..i'm thinking
Good take. Blew my mind. We cheered when Dany burned stuff and it went over my head that every time things got complicated she just burned it down. I didn't remember all the times she threatened to burn cities.
Your point about how the Ring is just like the Throne was very profound. Great video.
Both items represent the ultimate power.
@@GaoDaHoi And as the saying goes: Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
And the closer Dany got to the throne- the more corrupted she became. Just lime the ring affecting Frodo the closer he got to Mordor. Will Dany have a Gollum like ending? Dunno. Roll on tomorrow!
Sean T. Collins wrote a great piece at Vulture making this comparison as well.
But the problem with that is they never really said it had supernatural powers.
Glad you guys got your video back up
im not, where is uncharted 4 for pc????????
@@slyceth what
@Shirley Timple k
Why was it taken down?
@@senju31 HBO took it down
The biggest difference imo is that Daenerys was a rather bland and boring character, especially without her dragons, while Cercei was much more entertaining to watch, despite me hating her guts.
This is exactly why I never enjoyed Dany's scenes in this show... the dragons make it too 'easy' for her. Whereas Cersei, for all her mistakes, always had to think.
The Lannister's in general were the most complex family we were introduced to.
dany bland? not bland, just less emotional
so many things were cut out of her story, book version of Daenerys is much more complex than tv version
I mostly enjoy the Lannisters in this series
I disagree. She chose to rule Mereen and not sail to King’s Landing. She Locked up her children because they were hurting others. Cersei didn’t and wouldn’t do neither of these...
I bet HBO blocked this video because it was a better explanation as to why Dany went dark than the joke of the an excuse given by Dan & Dave.
She just kinda forgot she was one of the good guys
Yeah they literally say in the behind the episodes she sees bells, red keep and all just touch on her failures rather than having such a detailed and interesting point of this video. I have no issue of her heading to this end just wish the show was way better written and this point.
The problem I had was how rushed it was.....it was a dark shame too. Smh....
*darn*
Finally someone who said that Dany's Madness is not out of character. It's just rushed because D1D shortened the serie
'she lose her close advisors, or some are becoming distant" "she lose her advantages and have to play Cersei's game"
She didn't go mad, she's fuckin pissed with everyone.
I don’t think Dany is the problem. I’m sad about all the other characters. It was obvious that 4 episodes weren’t going to be enough.I think Littlefinger, Varys, Jaimie... ... ... deserved better. Specially the actors that did such a great job.
@@yutarokida being simply angry doesn't make one go around killing and buring innocents alive. I can understand validating her going mad narratively. But people downplaying what she did and the emotions she felt is cold. Some people even say she was right in burning families and children alive because the ignorant peeps cheered for neds death. Like as if they could possibly have known he was innocent.
Poivron Chantilly yes!
And the bullet points for Dany’s turn are really long. We all see it coming
@@thatguywithanumbrella Worked for Cersei. That's the point, what she did was bad but not unjustified in her mind. Perspective is how the show (and casually the books) are structured.
"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you." ― Friedrich W. Nietzsche
The more wicked Daenerys becomes, the less sexual her clothing is. She starts dressing like Cersei did after she became queen, wearing flat, close-fitting but entirely concealing dark dresses. I don't know what this means, but I noticed a trend.
Maybe they’re adopting more masculine and militaristic clothing, and how they are pursing the same goal with increasingly similar methods, so they need to properly arm themselves and pick the right armor/wardrobe
The world is in need of this take on episode 5 of Game of Thrones.
A point of the series is that people should continue to be skeptical of their leadership. Given that Dany has always had these violent impulses and tends to force her will on groups of people, good intentions or not, people should be wary of her. I think the audience is meant to be confused by Dany's actions because in past circumstances she would not cave to violent impulses this way. However we were never meant to trust that she never would because the possibility was always there.
yeeessss very much indeed
it was still a shit episode in a shit season
J. Kerim S do you have any valid arguments to support that claim? Or are you just going to ignore all of the points made in the video?
@@LickNilly This video claims Dany faces a choice between "people and throne" in episode 5. Except she doesn't, she had already won, and then she sadistically murdered hundreds of thousands of people anyway. That isn't a dilemma, it's just her being a socipath.
This video didn't defend episode 5 at all.
nextpkfr yeah? Well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
Finally, a video that actually uses logic, critical thinking and evidence/footage from throughout the show to discern exactly how and why Dany became (or, depending on how you look at it, how she always was) a power-hungry tyrant in the end.
*discern = someone else using their brain to defend a shows terribly written failure to deliver the said message of the video. The theory is solid but if this was their goal not only should they say this but they should have written it way better. Also, Frodo descent into madness with the ring is done so much better. Instead, the showrunners decided to suddenly have her go mad (in their behind the scenes thing they even imply she saw red keep and heard bells). If this was the message they should have framed this way better in the writing. It a great theory but I am not convinced utterly it was their message because of their trash choices with the story.
@@Henbot It'll be interesting to see what this all looks like a few years from now. I suspect that the current hysteria you're spouting will be forgotten while analyses like The Take's will be remembered.
Yes she was but it still DID NOT justify why she won the battle and proceeded to kill innocent civilians for absolutely no reason... Mad Queen is a great idea but you have to justify her behaviour in that moment and it most definitely was not justified. Hence why they didn't show her face after the bells scene as that would have been ridiculous.
the video is good but only goes a little deeper into a part of Dany that everyone accepted and completely ignores the 20 minutes or so that everyone has a problem with.
Its easy to explain the logical parts. It seem the only way to defend the stupidest decisions of the show are to pretend they dont exist.
@@johnathonhaney8291 not likely.
The only hysteria is from the hopelessly devoted who take every moment they can to pretend bad writing isnt bad. I understand you simpletons. I used to be like you when Lost was on TV. always making excuses for my favorite show and pretending its failings were not that big of deal. 10 years later, i can fully admit that the last 2 season of Lost were trash that ended poorly because the writers lacked the talent to dig themselves out of the hole they had dug so deep. .
So heres what will happen. In 10 years everyone will have had time to let go of their religious zeal for Game of Thrones, and people such as yourself will admit that season 8 was a diaster
"They're both blonde" Oh no no no! Dany is supposed to be silver haired. The other comparisons were on point, though,
One's got golden hair, the other silver. You can still see an inverted mirror here
She could have said both were light coloured haired
GRRM uses silver, silver blond, silver gold interchangeably. I think.
Yeah but in the show Dany’s hair looks more like platinum blonde than silver. Even though it’s silver in the books.
Dany's hair is described as silvery golden colored. That actually would make her a very pale blonde.
You have just saved this show for me... Very observant... You are right about Danny and Cersei
no it's pseudo intellectual bullshit
@@rcr257 No. This is somewhat correct. Their characters are very similar. The only difference is that one owns her darkness and the other tried to hide from it.
@@janellejulianajoy No, they're not. Cersei never cared about the common people, while Dani (until the end) always acted in their interests. Dani literally locked up her dragons when they killed a child, showing she has greater attachment to helping people than in her power. If they wanted to hint that she was a murderous dictator, they should have done it in that scene. Cersei and Dani were always different from each other in their interests and actions. They destroyed seven seasons of character developement when she destroyed the city.
@aj "Everybody who disagrees with me is a troll"
@aj Yeah, and literally any other protagonist wouldn't have burned down a city of innocents. And Ned Stark literally executed a scared child for the crime of deserting the Night's Watch. People have died over less in Game of Thrones, and in this universe the punishment for their crimes is often death. Why is it suddenly not okay when Dani does it? I'm not sure exactly what slaver you're talking about, but I do remember when she showed mercy to a few slavers and they literally tried to murder her so they could keep owning people.
This is the best take on the story arc leading up to ´The Bells´ episode that I´ve seen yet. As someone who predicted that Danaerys would take a villainous turn before this episode, I was stoked to see this video reveal important parallels that I´d missed (such as killing off one´s immediate rivals with fire in one big blaze of glory - in the same season! - as well as the inversion of how their lives are structured). I´ve long been suspicious of Danaerys´ character, finding her to be similar to, yet different from, Cersei. What I´ve long felt about Cersei and Dany (though struggled to articulate until I really thought about it), is that Cersei projects a tyrannical exterior/persona in order to hide a vulnerable, human interior; Danaerys on the other hand projects a benevolent exterior/persona in order to hide a tyrannical interior.
One of the things I loved about ´The Bells´ is that the interiors of both characters are put on display to the audience. Danaerys´ benevolent exterior is flipped to reveal violent tyranny, and Cersei´s tyrannical exterior is flipped to reveal human vulnerability.
Jens Andersen brilliant insights!
'What I´ve long felt about Cersei and Dany (though struggled to articulate until I really thought about it), is that Cersei projects a tyrannical exterior/persona in order to hide a vulnerable, human interior; Danaerys on the other hand projects a benevolent exterior/persona in order to hide a tyrannical interior.'
Bingo! And many people have fallen so much in love with Dany's mask they can't get over it!
@@SerbAtheist exactly👏
Jens Andersen but dany has shown many times her emotions and crying over the lose of people in her life and empathy for others how is she not as human if not more than cersei
Tyrannical interior = Targaryen genetics + ruthless impulse failed to be restrained + dragons.
Pity... Sounds inevitable for her not to go mad.
funny how we overlooked these seemingly chilling comments and actions from Dany because we liked her ,without question..but the red flags were there all along..and when that behavior is finally revealed we all seem shocked...what looked good..was not so good after all..no matter how much followers the good may have...there's
a lesson somewhere there for all of us...
mystique rogue how do you feel about Sansa killing Ramsey? Or lying about how Littlefinger killed Lysa?
No. The lesson is
1. If you a show and you know a lead female will become the villain don't exploit the popularity of the character
2. Don't troll audience by in the years of behind the episode and promo they constantly say how Dany isn't a cruel, sadistic or mad and strong powerful woman
3. Get better writing. If this had been the message of the show that would be great but until that is confirmed this is just a really good theory that is making a coherent take on a mess of a season. If the whole point was Daenery is flayed by Cersei and Cersei whole goal is to put Dany in a position to prove herself a hypocrite or not then at least have characters FUCKING talking about it.
4. Context matters? All the other deaths were against horrendous people? Her bro physical abused her, threatened to have her raped by all the Dothraki, cut out her baby- slave masters child mutilating and cruel sadists. If the message is well Daenerys is fighting obvious monsters-- slave masters. Then can she still use the same terror tactics on people not as bad? Yet at the same time, you have Cersei utterly awful and almost illogically ruling King's Landing.
5. If Cersei whole play was to prove Daenerys is a hypocrite THEN PLEASE have the script reflect it.
All this is a theory and it adds a coherency to a badly written story but unless the showrunners say it so it just a theory.
Great comment but I never liked dany I always found her scenes fucking boring.
@lil boosie what else could she have done she was litterly a hostage... pretty much every conversation she had with Joffrey after it was her subtly insulting him or wanting him to get killed.
@@Henbot Fans of shows are getting really nasty these days . Could you make a show like that ?
This season 8 thing shows how people can turn on you in a second , 5 years ago I bet you where cheering the makers and look at you now. Your not to be trusted !
Finally some video that does an intelligent analysis of the events of episode 5 instead of cursing him. The whole series built Daenerys as a relentless woman who would do anything for the Iron Throne, but apparently few people paid attention to it, and preferred to believe that she was the Jesus of Westeros, ignoring all the complexity of GoT.
Silver Lady except a lot of people saw this coming, people made THEORIES years ago on Daenerys turning mad. Even most book readers would agree that Daenerys is a more complexed character but her turning mad is likely so delete your comment because you sound like an idiot.
@@ihopemyprofilepicgivesyoun6609 This. It's been speculated for a very long time that this would happen.
@Silver Lady I see you all over this comment section bashing people who have a different opinion from yours. Mind taking a deep breath and relaxing?
@Silver Lady Oh, dear... you ARE obsessed!
I think this might be the tenth or so retort of yours to some opinion you do not like that I've read... and you seemed to be going off the rails more and more with each comment.
If I were to put your responses into chronological order from earliest to latest... I feel like your response to this one would be very near the end of a very long list...
@Joyful Sorrow silver lady literally replies with something stupid in every single comment in this video, what the hell! this is why I don't like Dany supporters, too arrogant to listen to anyone else's opinion.
13:34 Personally find it fun to think that they’re both wearing red on the inside to reflect their anger, but on the outside, Cersei wears black because she feels no need to hide her dark nature. She will literally don it like a gown and own it. On the other hand, Daenerys’ white gown symbolizes her self-righteousness.
Red and white are the colors of Templars, so Daenerys going on a driven quest to improve the world makes her a Templar Knight trope
This is so sad but completely true. The show takes the view that, it’s not the person who matters so much as the circumstances that bring them to & keep them in power.
A system that rewards violence and regression will do so.
A system that de-centralizes power and protects human rights & welfare, will produce the world we desire. It’s the final answer to Lord Varys’s long search for the perfect monarch. Such a ruler does not exist, because, in the end, dictators will always have to hurt the common people to ensure their seat of power.
We have to build a government that derives it’s power from the common people, because, in general, that kind of government will lean toward their interests.
This is brilliant. I discuss political discourse, & I've been trying to figure out a concise way to say the same thing, but was having trouble boiling it down. Thanks for sharing.
The Main problem is the monarchy, this is medieval times there was no human rights and no such a welfare. Medieval people cared about their legal rights about gentry landownership.
Super insightful, interesting, and well written as always!
Yes, super explanation to the two queens and the corruption of power.
Dany never _became_ mad. She always was mad.
Horseshit...
@@troytownsend101 Aww look a lil' Dany fangirl still crying 🤣
I never realized the inverse similarities between them but I knew from the beginning Dany would turn out to be a monster bc she so deeply believed it was her Divine right to rule.
Thank youuu for this! A lot of people want Daenerys to be something she has never been. She has dragons and beautiful blonde hair and she screams threats when she’s angry alongside talking about herself all the time. What a role model! The god complex has been there ever since she got a little bit of power, and then the power grew along with her entitlement. It was always going to end this way, because to her, her power and claim to the throne will always be more important than anything else.
Ani Borisova omg I agree 💯. I never understood why people liked her so much she’s SO OBNOXIOUS
I'm not a DAny fan but the build up to her burning kids was bullshit. Keep making excuses for Dan and Dave trash rushed writing.
I mean to be fair most people would get a "god complex" too if they didn't burn, had dragons, successfully conquered several lands and all at a very young age coming from virtually nothing.
@@hhh1200 To be fair, Stanis did the same and until that point everyone loved him.
Ani Borisova you would be the biggest demon of them all if you had the power of dragons. You aren't even honest enough to express your jealousy & hatred of a character like Queen Daenerys "beautiful blonde hair. & dragons." She has Dragons deal with it. You can't dismiss all the good Dany did for others. Queen Cersei did nothing for anyone but herself. If you're Queen Daenerys realistically, you have to kill more jealous twats like yourself. Daenerys rules. I would turn all of my opposition to ash especially jealous people like you I'd make an example out of them. Its my world the rest of you are just renting space in it. Dracarys!
MRW Video Coming Back After Being Copyrighted:
What Is Dead May Never Die!
But rises again harder and stronger!
I loved this comment. 😂
Then die again and never rise again, like theon, Euron, Cersei, Jaime and Targaryen.
most GOT fans especially me!.. loved Dany as she overcame great odds ,was kind and sympahetic to the less fortunate,was pretty,well spoken and ambitious......all positive traits in any person.however,this video highlights her cruel,power hungry and negative side which most of us never acknowledged or deliberately ignored.hence when she showed her true colours by burning kings landing and killing thousands of innocent civilians,we felt shocked and betrayed.just like in most relationships,we tend to see only the positive/good side of a person and ignore the darker side until its too late!i believe she also missed
the wise advice of sweet messandei,sly varys and brave serr mormont
One of the few people who are able to see beyond what the screen and its special effects have shown us about the true nature of Daenerys. In GoT there are no heroes, just humans who get power hungry and are able to commit the worst of crimes to sit on the Iron Throne
Yes. I binge watched all 8 seasons in 1 month this year. I rooted for Dany initially like we all did. But I kept seeing these concerning flashes of coldness/ruthlessness. Maybe it was because I watched it in that compressed fashion that none of those moments slipped past without my noticing them.
My question is, why didn't she just fly to the Red Keep and burn it and Cersei to the ground? Why did she feel the need to incinerate the citizen of the city, most of whom were being repressed by the Lannister power structure? That's the one thing that I don't understand.
@@alanparsonsfan Very simple. She wanted vengeance. She wanted to destroy Cersei, humiliate her, make her weep... (and if I may say ''mission accomplished''!) killing her off the bat would have been to easy. She didn't view the citizens of KL as innocents but as guilty for supporting her, not rebelling, living out their comfy lives under King Robert while she was sold off as a brood mare.
Happy Neither Got The Throne
@@alanparsonsfan Because she saw the people of Kingslanding as her enemy too. They according to her mind were free people not slaves which she usually encountered with and they had free will but they chose Cersei and took refuge in her and didn't submit themselves to Daenerys as slaves in Slaver's Bay had done. Thus, according to her they had sided with the enemy which we know was not the case. As she said she won't get love there. So, she let that be fear.
And one more thing which she kept on repeating was people can live in her new world or die in their old, and death did she give.
I always looked at Sansa, Cersei and Dany as similar-ish characters who make very different choices. Kinda like a choose your own story kind of thing. Sansa and Dany had very similar experiences, and Cersei as well (though further down the road in terms of age and choices made i.e. in theory her loving her family is not a bad thing, her way of doing it was trash) but Sansa, in particular, made very different decisions and decided to play the game differently. I have enjoyed watching their character development mirror each other.
I could hardly stand Sansa at first and have come to care for her character more every season. Sometimes I feel like she deserves more of a shout out.
You hit the nail on the head!
Especially when you bring up how Cersei got flack for refusing to help in the war because Jon didn't opt out of fighting after the Long Night, yet in the same breath, people will justify why Dany deserves The North for helping. Like, why does she deserve something and Cersei should get nothing and like it?
@Silver Lady Garden Rose made a good point
As much as I hate Cercei, her request that Jon stays out of the war between her and Daenarys in the future was actually more aligned with Northern interests. Too many Northman died fighting for or against the Iron Throne. A throne far from their home and sat upon by a ruler they rarely ever see. Despite what might happen later she was offering Jon something his people wanted. Independence.
06bigd2000 honestly the north hasn’t gained anything from the crown lately so it makes complete since for them to want to quit fighting. After all, they did what they wanted. Tywin Lannister, the mastermind behind the red wedding, is dead. House Frey and House Bolton are destroyed, and the starks have reclaimed winterfell. Even the tensions between northmen and free folk have been eased due to Jon.
What Cersei offered was very fair, and it felt stupid that Jon wouldn’t agree to it.
All he had to do was pull his forces and then the north would have the full might of the Lannister army, plus the golden company, to combat the night king. Dany would also be there as well, as she knows that she needs to help otherwise they’ll all die.
Then Cersei and dany can resume their war, with Jon staying north to help rebuild.
The war?! Forget that. Cersei was called a terrorist for the Seot explosion. If that made Cersei a terrorist, then what the hell would Daenerys be considered?..
The request reminded me a lot of the request of Frey for his brother to marry one of the Frey's daughters. It was almost like the question: would you do truly everything for this righteous cause as you request for everyone else, and they both failed it. His brother requested all of the sons deaths of his allies that he considered close and were entitled to his name for generations, but would not give a chance to an ugly girl, while Jon would shame everyone that would not help but he would not make a sacrifice for getting any help. Although, strategically, you could say that if he chose Cercei, Danaerys would not help, and her having dragons could mean less soldiers dying, therefore, more valuable than Cercei.
I remember seeing that scene from season one and while I was glad Viserys was dead I always noted that Daenerys seemed especially cold. I’ve mostly been on board with her, but like with many characters there have been things she’s done that I agreed with and things that I disagreed with. I noticed her attitude became more and more insufferable and I always thought that she got rewarded for things others got villainized for, but I still thought her good nature could win out. I think I’ve realized watching this last episode that I’ve been seeing this all wrong. Those times when I thought she made a mistake and that attitude were the warning signs of her inner tyrant. It could’ve remained dormant but circumstances brought it out and now innocents died. We’ve been watching the rise of a tyrant, not the rise of a ruler.
Viserys abused Dany, in that moment she is being freeded from her abuser. She's not going to cry for it. However, in the books she does remerbes him and feel guilty about it. Shame they never play out that part of her.
Why do you want her to show emotions to her brother's death? He abused her all the time and threatened to kill her and her unborn child right before he died. He was mad. People who say Dany was cold towards her brother's death is one of the forshadowing scenes to her eventually becoming mad is lame..
@@ashnar1690 People need to rationalise things. They need to feel like it makes sense. It doesn't (in the show) but they will confirmation bias their way to make it make sense in retrospect.
@Silver Lady you are obsessed with Daenerys. When the books end the same. what are you going to do?
@Silver Lady did you read the last book? She had several delusions in the desert
Thank you for this, very well thought out dissection. I was tired of hearing people say that Dany did was she did because it was in her genes simply because her father was maaaad. The proximity to power and ultimately power's ability to corrupt is a much more understandable theory. That Dany chose to be good and then bad makes so much more sense and makes the tale tangible and even relatable.
Using the same music for a certain character or theme is called a leitmotif. Richard Wagner was famous for using this in his operas. You hear it in many movie scores, most noteworthy Star Wars.
Am I the only one who loved Cersei more and more as her character became darker? No? Alright.
I should seek therapy.
I'm afraid so.
Not really Cercei still did everything out of love for her children. I see nothing wrong in her character. If you had said that you prefered Sansa 2.0, that would be something completely different however.
Ana Gil-Villanueva i need it more because by the end I wanted Danny to just burn everyone(including Jon). 😅
@@johnathonhaney8291 I loved her until the end, but I loved her conflict more. That was more apparent when her children and Tywin still lived.
😊no you were not the only one. All the Lannister children were my favorite because they showed different perspectives of your circumstance of birth and in life
I'm glad they let you re-upload this video. It's outstanding and is the better explanation for what is occurring in season 8 so far. I must say that The Take and Wisecrack are the best channels dedicated to analyze movies and tv shows. Keep the great work.
9:55 - We see Dany failing to hold herself accountable too...
Dany trusted a sorceress who she SAVED THE LIFE OF. Of COURSE she wasn't expecting the sorceress to be fucked up enough to stab her in the back.
It's not fair to complain that Dany failed to hold herself to account. She shouldn't have to hold herself accountable for what someone else did to her - especially under those circumstances. Geez.
You mean Mirri? The woman whose whole life was destroyed because Daenerys wanted her throne? Daenerys “saved” her after she was already repeatedly raped, saw people she has saved and loved butchered for Daenerys’ ambition. Mirri tried to heal Drogo’s wound, but he was the dumbass that threw that out the window. Mirri specifically told Daenerys NOT TO ENTER THE TENT during the ceremony, that fault lays on Jorah, not Mirri. Mirri told Daenerys about the cost, that blood magic isn’t to played around with, but nope. In all honesty, the fault lies with Daenerys and Drogo, not Mirri. Daenerys burned a woman alive because she couldn’t face the fact that SHE held responsibility for certain events that occurred.
But please, go on, about how Mirri owed so much to Daenerys when it was Daenerys’ desire for a throne that tore Mirri’s life to shreds.
I don't think Dany was guilty at all when it came to his death but in those circumstances most people would FEEL guilty even though they're not.
The writers took what Daenerys used to be, into what she didn't want to become.
She wanted to end all tyrants. But, over time, she became what she despised. She did became a mixture of Cersei, and her father, which makes for a dangerous combination.
It’s the rare “leader to tyrant” story arc. It’s not popular, but it’s incredible. The protagonist goes from being a beacon of hope and unity to a tyrant who gives only one option: Obey or die.
In Breaking Bad Walter White claims over and over again that he’s doing what he’s doing for his family, and he’s convinced himself that that’s why he keeps doing it.
It’s not until the end when he realizes that he was never doing it for his family, but he was just doing it for himself, because he liked it. He realizes this, but Dany never does, she’s fully convinced that her way is right, that she deserves to rule, and that any cost is acceptable if it puts her in power.
Agreed. Which makes sense that the more a person is on the throne and put to power, the more it becomes corrupted. Just like Lord of the Rings' ring as GRRM a big fan of Tolkein's writing.
The_SCP _Foundation maybe rare in the fictional world but this is common in a lot of real tyrants. Most do start with a desire to “better” things but they spend too much time perfecting the goal and putting themselves in power that they don’t realise they’re hurting the people they want to help.
Breaking Bad - good comparing!
Bb8, your comment helps me more than you could know. Big mindblown. Thank you 😊
and this is why Dany's turn didn't surprise or upset me in the slightest. Watching her journey through season 8, watching her lose everything she worked so hard to gain, seeing her disappointment at the lack of love she's welcomed with, being faced with a completely different situation than she has before, not being praised, adulated or raised up by those she's saved, being called out, distrusted, being betrayed, having her heart broken on soooo many fronts, with no gains to balance it out, MONTHS of grieving... I can understand her embracing the rage. She's been swallowing it down for so long. And in that moment, she can't take another sip. She has to spit it out. It IS sad to see it happen. Knowing she had the potential to be a great ruler. But we're all human and can only take so much. And yes, if her experience in Westeros had been different, we may never had seen this side of her.
Dany was so caught up in the fantasy of ruling Westeros: not because she knew the place, its policies or how life was there, not for any love for the seven kingdoms, but simply because it was her destiny, her birthright, because it was STOLEN... she never really considered the reality of what she might face there. That the people might not WANT her to save them. That they wouldn't welcome her, trust her, would see her as an outsider. She reacts with hurt feelings at not being beloved. The Westerosi are slaves who DON'T throw down their chains, turn on their captors and embrace their rescuer. She's not THEIR mother. And she doesn't understand why. She doesn't get why they don't want or trust or love her. She doesn't get why Jon won't BE with her or consider his feelings. She doesn't like that she isn't being fawned over. She doesn't take any of that rejection well. It's a challenge at a personal level she wasn't prepared for. And her past methods of winning aren't effective here. So she makes a choice. It's an ugly one.
How did everybody else miss all that again? I saw just as clearly as you did.
@@johnathonhaney8291 I dunno. It seemed so obvious to me. But I guess I can understand why it took so many by surprise. I mean, I was expecting it to happen. For a long time. Back in season/book 2, I thought Dany would end up burning Westeros to the ground.
But if you weren't expecting that, or at least thought it should be more spelled out as to how she got to that mental head space (which is fair), then yeah... it felt very jarring. even borderline character assassination.
Good observation. I never saw it that way at first. Both women are driven by the same motivations. In a way, they both want the same goals, though they use different methods to establish those goals. But you can say the same about Jon as well with him rising from the dead as a new person just as Dany rose from the flames after the death of Drogo. Good writing from Martin. It's a shame the writing went down afterward.
Danny broke my heart - all she had to do when she came through the back door was head straight to the redkeep and set it on fire and the people would have knelt to her - be it love or fear or both...
Daenerys having her brother's life ended is constantly explained as her first sign of madness, but I think that's extremely unfair and ridiculous. Despite what the showrunners say, Daenerys gave Viserys multiple chances to redeem himself and she kept letting him get away with things despite her position as a Khaleesi, but the ultimate end came when he threatened her child. Now if you can imagine a pregnant woman of 6-8 months who just had her child threatened, who the hell is going to take that shit, regardless of your relationship with the mother? That was the final straw for her, he was dead to her. He took it too far.
Other than that I agree with the rest of the points, but it's just a ridiculous point the showrunners and everyone keeps reiterating; without taking into account the number of times she let him off with things most of us wouldn't tolerate. There are other signs of madness - but this cannot be the first or any sign of madness. This is a mother protecting her child.
Plus he broke a rule by bringing a weapon AND not just threaten a mother, but the father who is protective of her. Don't know what he though was going to happen there
very good. now use the same arguments for Cersei
Agreed, complete bs. Her brother deserved it lmao
I have thought Dany had an icy core from the beginning. Everything you have covered here is what I have been trying to explain to my friends who thought of her as a Saint who turned into a demon in an instant. You cover it so eloquently I am redirecting them here. Great stuff. Thank you.
Not so sure about the icy core. I think she loved Drogo and Messandei.
@@amandabilling8431 because they adored her and dependent on her
I love this analysis! So many are saying it’s ‘out of character ‘ for Dany, but we’ve been watching her little flickers of rage for 7 seasons prior!
I mean Jon and Sansa had their own violent moments as well but apparently when they did it was ok. There is a big difference between killing slavers and killing innocent people, and the fact that Dani killed innocents doesn't follow a logical progression.
Apparently a lot of people view slavers as innocent and murdering them being on par with murdering random civilians. Says a lot about people’s sense of basic empathy.... and it’s not saying anything good.
Derek Ford because although they were slavers, they were still people.
“When you fight monsters, be careful that you do not become one”
Just like with Jon fighting Ramsay. We see Jon’s rage as he lands blow after blow, busting his face open, but he regains his control, and knows that he can’t let himself become what he despises, so he stops, and locks Ramsay up instead, to await trial.
Dany didn’t do this, she was all to eager to burn westeros to the ground and rebuild with those that were loyal. Even when she frees the slaves of Meereen and straight up tells them to take revenge on their master’s, she executes a former slave for doing just that.
She has constantly said that she would burn westeros, and when Khal Drogo talked about how they would conquer the kingdoms and kill anyone in their way, she was smiling. Her entire reason for wanting the throne rests solely on the (debatable) notion that it’s her birthright.
Even though of course the last targaryen heir was dead, and Daenerys was across the sea, meaning that they needed a new king, a new bloodline. By right of conquest, Robert Baratheon became king.
@@Arander92 it was literally revealed in the show that many of the slaves were not only former slaves but were also good....dany simps are the worst
I always felt like Dany was somewhat tyrannical, the way she'd always talk how rulership and authority belonged to her. I never knew for sure what she would end up as, but I always had a distrust of her, like it could turn out either way. I didn't know until the last minute.
People don’t seem to understand that both fire and ice needed to be stopped to save the world. Dany was fire and the Night King was Ice and akin who helped stopped them both was fire and ice and the Prince that was promised. Dany & Drogon were also the Stallion that Mounted the World and GRRM often referred to the dragons as nukes. The citadel were also working on a way to end magic to prevent these existential threats to humanity: white walkers and dragons.
You make a far far better case as to why Dany did what she did than the show.
Your statement makes no sense. It’s called interpreting the show.
Ethidian exactly! And they’re literally take clips from the show to prove the points lol
@@ethidian3444 Yes it does, that's why he got 53 likes and you didn't.
@@craydogdog1530 And that's called being apart of a persuasive-by-numbers echo chamber. Appealing to that nonsense means you give yourself up to being fallacious bud.
What? IT IS THE SHOW!!!
such an amazing video!! i think a lot of people hate this season because they don’t want to acknowledge the similarities between Cersei and well-loved Daenerys. you guys did such an great job explaining everything!!
They're also hung up on the usual fantasy tropes: prophecies, Chosen Ones, good triumphant in a way that's feel-good. You know, things this series has NEVER been about.
Tbh I liked cersie more before the end. Atleast she doesn't hide that she's a selfish tyrant. Doesn't act like she's the moral authority that all should bow down to. For one Dany has talked about taking over the world a few times. Cersie is happy with keeping the power she has.
@Draydin Bardon is more like. remember what you love and recontextualize
I hate this season (and S7) because they were rushed, causing several plot holes and inconsistencies that diminished the realism GoT used to have.
Dany becoming the villain is great.
Dany becoming the villain in 2 episodes... meh?
I mean, she already showed signs of her tyrannical side in S6 and even earlier. But it was a steadier process.
Just watch her arc from S1 and S6, then watch how she becomes more power hungry in S7 and S8. It's undeniable: things have been rushed in these last 2 seasons, and what's worse is that HBO told D&D they had the possibility to make more seasons!
I find it funny, that common people, whom have probably never written so much as an essay, think they have the ultimate authority on how to write a story, up against George R.R. Martin, abs D&D.
Rewatch the seasons. It’s been a really long time. I did. And you can see foreshadowing from the first episodes, and on...
Even the prophecies all check out. Especially the Red Womans.
This video blatantly ignores all the examples of Dany showing empathy and restraining herself from cruelty. The issue isn't that anyone doubts she had it in her based on her earlier showing of cruelty, the issue is it came out of nowhere without proper buildup.
It had plenty of buildup. And showing empathy here and there doesn’t make you a good person. Ramsay allowed Theon to live instead of outright killing him, does that make him a good person?
Also she’s a total hypocrite. She told the slaves of Meereen to take revenge against their masters. A slave does just that, and then she accuses him of murder and executed him, when she had encouraged him to take vengeance.
I always thought that Dany speaking of breaking the wheel, but remarking how she's the true heir to the throne was very telling, given that the "wheel" is the very same system that would make her the heir to said throne.
Two Drama Queens. :D
Your Conclusion is exactly the same as I came to to a long time ago and had arguments about this with other people who saw Dany as a savior: what is more important to Dany? Get the Throne or be the Breaker of Chains and save people. The Throne and I always knew that, that this would be the end game. And that Breaker of Chains was sort of an excuse.
This is the story of the Iron Throne and what it does to people when they do to get it in the form of greed, violence, betrayal, etc...Nobody will sit on it at the end, it should be destroyed.
Yeah, funny how easy it is to forgive violence and cruelty when we think the people on the receiving end deserved it. Dany benefited from that for a long time.
Vael221 Good post!
This is medieval times there was no human rights and no such a welfare. Medieval people cared about their legal rights about gentry landownership and systems that keeps their three social estate.
No mass welfare and human right? Sign me up
As a Cersei fan this video gives me such a pleasure and relieve. It's so easy to see her as a simple villain that has never done something rational but that's not the truth and same as the easy "Daenerys is good" thing. Thank god for this video.
this is excellent. the most intelligent, insightful & cohesive GoT analysis I have ever seen. thank you.
'I believe in myself' is a statement of self confidence and 'I do things for myself' is a statement of selfishness. Putting the two on the same level and basically claiming they're the same isn't correct.
Glad you guys got this back again. Also like I mentioned since you’re in this subject any chance you can do a parallel video on Jon and Ramsay or even Robb and Joffrey?
Why would you compare Rob to Joffery or Jon to Ramsey?
Brian Magee their stories parallel each other. Jon and Ramsay were the non-kids to great lords while Robb and Joffrey were ‘boy kings’ who came to power after the death of their ‘fathers’
@@nightwingman666 not sure about robb ands joffrey but clearly there is a connection between jon and ramsay
Fcking Fardin X Both lost their ‘fathers’ and became kings not long after, both had their mothers as their advisors, both had to prove themselves as strong and capable for Joffrey it was showing his cruelty Robb it was proving he could do everything and the both of them met their deaths at a wedding.
OK, apart from Jon and Ramsay both being bastards (even though Jon technically isn't really one after all) what other parallels are there between the two?
I'm glad the video is back up again ! Love these videos to death, very informative :D
They should've had George R.R Martin write the last season and had 13 episodes instead of rushing all of the character development. Ruining Dani's character is unforgivable through my eyes.
By that I don't mean making her evil. Its been foreshadowed, but by giving the season only 5 episodes, they rushed into everything instead if taking the time with the character development like the author always did. That's why his books were so long and that's what made Game of Thrones so great the time and care with development. Then in the last season they threw their chance to slowly develop the characters (which is the best part of the books and show) down the tolit. It was rushed and poorly executed, this video both made me feel better about it, but also made me see how much better it would be been if the writing wasn't so lazy.
"Maybes are only for the loser."--Matt Wagner
Your time would be better spent accepting that what happened happened.
@@johnathonhaney8291 I except it, that doesnt mean I have to like it. That's just my opinion on it and you clearly disagree. You should learn to respect another persons opinion, like an adult instead of attacking people who think differently than you.
@Iam NoOne and you should also seek therapy....Arya is a killing machine too, no matter what her reasons are.
If George was writing the scripts, season 5 onward would have been much different.
To be fair, all royalty is pretty incestuous if you're counting cousins.
A lot of people said it didn't make sense for her turn, I think it did pretty convincingly. It was less of her being a bloodthirsty maniac, and more of her being alone and unloved. Westeros has shown her nothing but cruelty and cracked her foundation of rule. The loss of two dragons, the loss of Missandei by Cersei's doing, the loss of half her forces during the Battle For Winterfell, Jorah dying, the failure and betrayal of her advisors, her jealously and insecurity created by Jon being the rightful heir and a champion of the people. In one journey to what she believed her destiny, she lost about half of her resources, loved ones, and more than half her dragons. Nothing but fear would win her the throne in her mind in that moment. She wasn't ALWAYS this level of instable, it was only after every single possible horrid thing to happen, happened. I am an avid lover of 'The Bells', and I think people just like to hate on this season for a few flaws that are truly minor in actuality. This isn't all my thoughts on the topic of 'Mad Queen Dany', but I think it's a nice surface level dive into it.
@RobMacRay You forget the other part of Ned Stark's teachings: trust your family always. Jon thought he could trust his...Sansa proved him wrong.
Dany: you've killed my children. I want revenge
Cersei: you've killed my children. I don't want my [last] one to die.
Do you watch the same show as we do?What children of Cersei did Dany kill??
@@barnaantonio8330 William meant in general; how they act to losing children as NEITHER of them killed each other's children. Joffrey poisoned by Olena, Myrcella poisoned by Ellaria, Tommen committed suicide. Viserion killed by the night king, Rhaegal killed by Euron, and Drogon is still alive. They act differently to their kids dying; Cersei reacts evil to an extent, but she has more humanity as she begs, cries, prays, yells, and breaks down like a distressed mother while Dany is a cold ruthless tyrant when her kids are attacked turning her into the monster as she kills people. Cersei becomes a new version of herself like while Daenerys becomes a new version of her mad king father. Neither good and both real, but one more able to be grasped and understood. That's what William was talking about.
@JNike I didn't say it made her more human in general; but instead more so then Dany. It's like comparing two rotted apples you found on the ground; one is usually better looking than the other though both unhealthy, contaminated, possibly deseased, and should not be eatten in any form. Best out of the worst type deal. There is such thing; both mommas are horrid, but not on the same level. To Cersei; her children ARE children. To Dany; her child (though she says otherwise when she feels like it) are wepons. Imagine using your 3 year old to kill your enemies (I know dragon years and human years are different lile most animal's; but think about it. Your three, four, five, six, seven, etc year old being used to light matches and kill people you don't like whether for big or even rinky dinky tiny problems? Damn geez.)
This is a carefully thought out analysis; well done! Many, including D&D, have pointed out the toll that losing loved ones (including dragons) had on Dany. Along with their moderating advice. What I have not seen so far is a discussion of a heavy burden she was carrying. She DID start out being repulsed by slavery, and wanting to free and defend common people wherever she went. But a problem for her was that she had had it drummed into her head, probably from childhood, that a Targaryen must rule the 7 Kingdoms. That is was her/their birthright. I wonder how much thinking that she had to do that, that it was part of her duty, turned her away from helping people to focus more on fighting for the throne.
SO happy this is back up. This is the best analysis of the story I've seen yet.
This is so incredibly well done. You guys are so thoughtful and precise in your video essays. I love watching them, keep it up!
This is the best analysis of GOT episode 5 I’ve seen.
Because other analyses have mainly focused on just the episode but this was the whole show. It a great theory but it still just a theory and does give a bit too much protection to bad writing.
Analyzing something doesn’t mean protecting or excusing the weaknesses of the thing being analyzed. Quite the opposite actually.
YES! I too wanted to Dany to turn out to be a hero of sorts, but I can't believe those who are crying out that she has been such a good ruler up to now and that last week's events were out of character. She's a conqueror. Conquerors aren't nice.