Liberation vs Assimilation in Queer Cinema
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2019
- Should LGBT cinema try and emulate mainstream movies - or forge its own path? Including examples like One Day At A Time, Modern Family, The Birdcage, La Cage Aux Folles, Dragon Prince, Skins, She-Ra, Moonlight, Pride and more. This is the second part in my series about the future of LGBT cinema and representation.
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"don't bite the hand that feeds you" is so weird because it acknowledges that cishet people are feeding us and they are in power and that non cishet people are subject to their will
That happens for people with disabilities too. Like that horrible portrayal of people with limb differences being about kicking up a *stupid* storm. No we want good not bad just coz you're in power doesn't mean we're "slightly less human/equal."
At first I was confused what cishet meant and I read it as "chischet" lol
“Implies” not “acknowledges”. ‘Acknowledges’ ironically implies that this is a definite - that cishet *are* feeding the lgbt
@@sparksfly5877 thats a good point
@@sparksfly5877 It's horrible but they are in a way, our entire state of existence especially in media is dependent on what they deem acceptable
I just wanna say MOONLIGHT is one of the best LGBT films to date. It shows a black closeted man, and it is phenomenal. And it's so real and true to black culture.
Sincerely Eccentric I agree. It’s absolutely beautiful, one-of-a-kind really at the moment.
It is PURE poetry on film. Jay Z's Moonlight perfectly summarizes the frustration of La La Land eclipsing Moonlight's win.
Call me by your name is also one of the best movies
What I’ve never heard of it :0 thank you🥺 💕🏳️🌈
it's a knockoff of Wong Kar-Wai's style and his gay themed film, Happy Together, is far superior.
"meant well" doesn't equal "done well"
!! even if the best intention can do a horrible thing
@@teariesz4103 as the saying goes, the path to hell is filled with good intentions. Of course less dramatically though lol 😂
@@anyanon3849 damn was about to say the same thing
YES!!!! 🧑🍳😙👌🏼
I think I would have been more happy with Cam and Mitchell's first kiss being framed by Mitchell's fear of public intimacy if they had given a different reason. If, instead of being uncomfortable with displaying affection because daddy issues, it was actually from a fear of backlash. Even though he knows his family love him and accept him, it would still make perfect sense for a gay man to feel uncomfortable displaying his gay affections in public spaces in front of a world that, especially at the time, weren't too happy to see it.
"I accept gays but I wish they wouldn't rub it in our face" is something we hear a lot, even now.
So if Mitchell's fear of intimacy was because of THAT, it would be more realistic and it would have illustrated a positive moral for the audience, that chaste affections between gays are no less appropriate than hetero romance in public.
I guess that kind of stance would have been too political for modern family's audience though.
You are so right about that. It's so real, too. My spouse, as an anecdotal example, won't even hold hands in public for fear of physical violence.
Maybe they could have done both?
Yes! I think that would have made more sense & would have been more relatable. I am constantly self conscious of how affectionate I’m being towards my girlfriend in public for fear of how other people are gonna react.
That's interesting but I think a tad off brand for the show titled Modern "Family". The issues within the episodes should relate more to how the characters deal with one another than the world around them. To build on what you've proposed rather than try to tear it down, what if Mitchel was afraid to be openly affectionate around his family (maybe most specifically his father) because of some lingering fear that they don't actually accept him. That might possibly be what the writers were hoping for with that story line, but the fact that Jay also has to kiss Claire smacks of trying to shroud the episode in a bit of "love for everyone (even straight people)"!! More of main stream media and their patented lets take a giant leap forwards, but actually were too afraid to do that so maybe just off to the side somewhere.
THISSSS
"Stay with me, there's no math in this" - This is peak gay culture
Should have said it whilst holding an iced coffee & sitting on the counter!😋
Well I would've stayed either way. I love math and I'm 💅💅
@@kartikp6658 Yeah same, and idk if it's just me, but this stereotype kind of bothers me
Maybe the joke is meant to be nonsensical, but it if wasn't the case, can someone explain to me why is being bad at math associated with gay culture in the anglosphere ? As a frenchman, I obviously do not understand all the nuances between french and """anglophone""" culture, please, PLEASE, don't r/woosh me, I am genuinely confused.
@@exaggeratedswaggerofablackteen I don't think there's more to it than just the meme "gay people are bad at math". It's kind of an in-community stereotype, which we often cling to in the LGBT community because we have so many stereotypes imposed on us our whole lives that it can be liberating to choose your own sterotypes instead. Of course this comes with its own issues but it is what it is.
I always think it’s weird when I see a bunch of straight ppl and one gay character in a group of friends in movies or tv shows
I’ve never seen it irl.
In my group of friends all my friends are bi or gay or something like, we didn’t even seek each other out or anything it just happened this way.
So when I see it done in movies I can never relate to any of the characters lives or problems. The only thing I remember relating to is the UA-cam series Camilla 😂
In highschool I used to be the only straight one in my friend group.
you're lucky. I only know one gay guy and 2 annoying bi girls so I don't hang out with them. I am the only gay girl in my entire year of school let alone my friend group 😂
I don't really have any gay friends except my boyfriend🤷♂️
right? the gays just happen to find eachother. if anything, the straight friend group with the one gay friend is flipped IRL.
I literally went to a birthday party where we figured out that of the twelve of us not a single one war straight
I grew up watching Modern Family, and really watching it I just grew up believing that gay couples were normal and that was that, I didn’t know until I was older that it wasn’t something everyone accepted. Really tho, it has its stereotypes but it really did normalize LGBT+ relationships for me as a kid and what made me comfortable with coming out myself to my family, because they loved the show too and never had a problem with the relationships in it (besides Hayley and Dylan, they thought both of them could do better)
I know this an old comment but Modern Family is the reason why I didn’t understand why gay characters were a big deal. I’d go far as saying I didn’t even see Cam and Mitch as “gay” I was thought “Oh a couple? What makes them different.”
I like your parents. I don't ship Hailey and Dylan too
on the other hand, my brother (also lgbt) got in an argument with our father (straight, who loves the show) about how he felt the gay characters were two dimensional stereotypes (again, not sure how the straight guy would know anything about that, but he disagreed). so basically we have the one side that normaliazes it for kids/straight ppl, but then doesnt do much more than that (ie: it doesnt do anything to straight ppl who are kind of accepting but still dont get stereotypes or lgbt issues). its very "gay character for straight people" to me and i always felt it was a bit offensive in the way they were so two dimensional and stereotypical.
TL;DR: two different ways to see it: either straight people pandering or normalizing gay ppl to a straight audience (speciifcally the flamboyant white homosexual cis men tho soooooo)
honestly just becaue Mitch and Cam were allowed to kiss in season 2, doesn´t change, that 8 seasons later, they´re still not treated equally to Claire and Phil. While the straight couple shares cuddles and kisses in many scenes per episode, all the gay couple gets is Mitch touching Cams shoulder every few episodes. We still can´t call that equality
odaat treated Elenas and Sids relationship very well. Sure they don´t share many kisses either, but I´m convinced that, that is because they don´t want to sexualise two young girls, who are under 18.
They still have a very loving and pure relationship that is treated like every other teenage romance.
Liv tbh that can just be a Mitch thing. It does seem like he is uncomfortable with any type of affection even from his sister.
@@phil6748 But why is that a Mitch thing? Mitch as a character doesn't exist in a bubble; Mitch is the product of the writers and the actor portraying him. Mitch being uncomfortable with all types of affection is a choice and it's important to question why Mitch is shown that way. The writers could have addressed Mitch being uncomfortable with pda, or all affection, but choose to not really delve into it or change his behavior. They choose not to.
Odaat was seriously so well done. I believe one of the creators based Elena off of his own daughter who had come out, and that to me is why it’s so real because those situations are very true to reality.
Syd is nonbinary, not a girl
@@eileen1020 yes true. They are female presenting though
Heck yeah one day at a time
Hey Carol! Loved your movie!
Higher
Further
Faster
@@EM-lz4rb thank you djdhdudu
i love that show! i want a season 4 😭
@@steph3172 There is one! It was picked up by Pop TV and the season started in March. We're hoping it'll go up on netflix eventually but production was cut short (see: covid) so there are only 7 episodes right now
Never watched it. Is it so good?
I'm pansexual and feel so excited when there is pan or bi representation but so often the story line doesn't sit well with me - I still think it's often shown in an overtly sexual way, like a kink or fetish for heterosexual cis men. I think there is a middle ground I tend to take with my reaction - rather than just being grateful and not biting the hands that feed you, and rather than ignoring the progress, albeit small, that we've made, I'd say my general feeling is "Ok cool that I see more of myself represented, but next time let's....(insert constructive criticism)".
Exactly. Like, I loved the concept and first few seasons of the show "Lost Girl."
(It's a weird Fantasy Genre piece involving fairies and mythology in the modern world and focuses around a succubus that works as a private detective. It's absurd and I love it.)
A lot of people were praising it for bisexual representation in the main character and... Well... No? She quite literally feeds on sexual desire and gratification so she naturally feels attracted to anyone with a sexuality. And there's a major plot point of view when she tries to stay in a monogamous relationship it literally starts killing her because she can only feed in such a limited way. She winds up cheating on her partner because she was stabbed and needed to have sex to heal. And plot points like this come up more than once. It's just "not in her nature" to be monogamous, no matter how much she and her partner may both wish she could. She just can't be satisfied the way she needs with just one person.
It's the stereotype that a bisexual partner is going to cheat on you, ramped up to 11.
And the show doesn't even try to take it a direction of characters thinking about polyamory as an option. It just keeps bringing up the monogamy issue over and over. Simultaneously framing it as "well, she just can't help herself. It's a biological necessity," and "the cheating slut hurt her partner again."
@@dracawyn tbh this is why I have an issue with monogamy too, the way it’s presented in media, like there’s never ever honest or healthy communication, every interaction with a gender you’re attracted to is assumed by your partner that it could be romantic and there’s no normalization of intimacy in platonic relationships as the norm. But you’ve actually pointed out everything that rubbed me off about Lost Girl. I watched because I was so happy to find a show with a bisexual and female lead and yet it was disappointing. Why don’t these shows ever consider mediums outside of monogamy or consider that how everyone handles a monogamous relationship is different especially if they’re not human? Why apply rules to these characters and love when not one couple deals with everything in the same way?
Oo there’s a show I love called Dimension 20 that I love for representation, it’s an anthology series so each season is a different story (but they do sequel seasons acasionally) and the creators have been super open about hiring sensitivity consultants to represent marginalised groups correctly. I’m bi too and it feels GREAT to see multiple bi characters as well as many other orientations. There’s a nice range of some characters who have a journey around coming out, and others who are lgbt but don’t feel the need to talk about or define their sexuality. I feel the exact same way so often and this show was such a breath of fresh air for me. If you want to watch it the first couple of seasons are on UA-cam, Dimension 20 by Collegehumour. The first season is called Fantasy High!
@@dracawyn I already talked ab this show (Dimension 20) in these comments but there’s a character in that show who feels similar (but without the biphobia). Her name is fig, she was raised by two elf parents but right before her first year in high school she grew horns, revealing that her mother cheated on her father with a demon and her parents get a divorce. She spends the first season learning to see her mother as a person and trying to understand her cheating so that she can mend her relationships to all 3 of her parents, biological and otherwise. In the seccond season, she gets a badass wizard girlfriend and the idea of polyamory is talked about with some other characters that I don’t want to spoil for anyone haha
And see that is why I love she ra pop so much, because there are only four straight characters, but there are two hetero relationships, and the show never made a deal about labels and stuff, so no one ever said I'm gay, or I'm pan, or I'm bi, or anything. It's just kinda cool.
This is what I need after being subjected to my dead name at the dentist. I love your videos 💕
oh no that's horrible! hope you're doing okay xx
Wow I'm so sorry that happened to you. You're valid pal even if that dentist deadnamed you.
It's awful that that happened to you, I hope you're feeling better!
Ahh I’m so sorry that happened to you. I hope you’re doing okay now💕
sorryyyy if this is stupid, but what does dead name mean?
I’m still crying over one day at a time getting cancelled
It got picked back up by another network!
@@angelrosalia888 And after half a season it's back in stasis again :(
@@samtheflutegirl1373 but that’s bc of covid 🤨
@@teariesz4103 No, sadly Pop decided not to order more episodes after the shortened 4th season.
It got picked back up and cancelled again 😢
another great addition is bojack horseman-- todd coming out as asexual was so well done, and one of the best representation of characters straying from the sexual binary i've seen to date,
I highly recommend She-Ra: the Princesses of Power!! It has such amazing representation for people of color and people of all body types and LGBTQ+ people it's PHENOMENAL
That's a total lie
@@eelnetflix5196 yeah you because there was alot of things wrong with the show.
Kendric Coley if you don’t mind me asking, what’s wrong with it?
@@rebabrennan9707 will the characters come off as unlikable to where you dont care about them except Kyle who is the punching bag everytime to where it becomes kinda terrible. The pacing is way off and really lacks at that. hordak is a pushover and not threatening at all. The whole show is just filler and not in a good way, lastly the representation is god awful they get 5 seconds of screen time and never show up again.
Kendric Coley the creator for the show literally said assume all my characters are queer unless I say otherwise. That's literally fantastic!! I was watching this show half-heartedly with a 4-year-old brother until I started noticing the gay characters in a kids show. The episode where there is a princess prom there are a lot of girls that have girls as there plus one's and it's normal it's phenomenal. The show has a ton of POC and different body type representation. There aren't many kids shows with a lead character who is thicker and short as the main character. I love the show! To be fair I don't have a nostalgia-based attachment to the older show that existed before it so that's also why I'm and so many others are able to get into it.
So glad to see One Day at a Time get props for the great way they treat queer issues. Elena’s story had it’s ups and downs, like her mother and grandmother trying so hard to be accepting but not having a clue (they worked on it and did independent research ❤️), to the rest of the family who outright dismisses/forgets an entire gay wedding because it’s uncomfortable for them (including the couple in the family but referring to them as friends), to her father who reacts really badly and has to go away and work on his own issues (over two seasons) before finally publicly apologizing just when she had given up hope he ever would. And outside her family she’s both fully supported in opening a GSA at school but also verbally attacked in public for holding hands with her SO Syd which means she doesn’t want to leave the house. I cry every time I watch it!
Also this video is great and your graph is a really interesting way to think about queerness in movies!
Honestly can't believe they cancelled that show
Have you seen Schitt's Creek? Patrick and David kiss all the time (David’s pansexual, Patrick is gay). It’s on Netflix
David’s pan? that’s so cool I thought he was gay!
@@frogsarekewl7688 yeah, he had a thing with Stevie, he just likes who he likes
@@Eye_spye I thought he had a thing with stevies boyfriend, ty for telling me
@@frogsarekewl7688 he had a thing with Stevie and Jake. Jake was seeing both Stevie and David, and when they found out David ended it because of his past history with Stevie
@@Eye_spye ohhhh, okay thank you
Actually Mitch's inability to show physical intimacy in public was something that made me feel represented.
yes to this.
yes to this
Yes to this
yes to this
yes to this
i made a audible 'oooOo!' sound when i saw this pop up
I think we should also talk about the other great gay character (in my opinion) - Mac from "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia". While writers struggled to understand LGBTQ+ people at the beginning of the show, through these 13 seasons we see them gradually developing one of the most complex gay characters on TV. It took this character many years to come in terms with his sexuality due to the emotional abuse he suffered from his parents in childhood and due to his unbearable stubbornness and due to the fact that he's a Catholic, but when he comes out, we see him much more happy and open about his feelings, we see more violence in him. Almost every character from Sunny is a terrible person who is unable to overcome themselves, but Mac is the only one who changes for the best while portraying new kinds of problems - some gay men's bad treatment of women, for example, and the fact that you still can be gay and misogynistic.
I cannot express enough how important it can be to see characters like this portrayed in the media when you live in a country like Russia.
(Sorry for possible mistakes, by the way)
The actor for Mac. Rob Who is also the creator and main writer for the show has two moms and he wanted to show a gay character in his show that had real struggles with himself and his identity without watering it down for t.v
@@ringer1324 wow kool 😳
The fact that I, a bi musical theatre kid, have never heard of La Cage Aux Folles is criminal
Do you know how can we watch it???
I legit moved my hand to clutch my pearls.
I love Once Day At A Time. And I love that they have a nonbinary lesbian character and that they handle it so well.
Genuine question: how can someone be a lesbian (a woman who loves a woman) when they are non-binary (neither man nor woman)
@@astridcreemers5132 non binary just means not exclusively male or female. therefore, someone can be not exclusively female, but still partially female or aligned with womanhood enough to feel comfortable with the lesbian label. leslie feinberg (an lgbt activist) was a non-binary lesbian and “stone butch blues” discusses the experience a lot
@@joandarc06 had to read your comment a few times but now I get it 😂 but seriously tho, thanks I get it now :)
@@joandarc06 But then the term "lesbian" is not valid, and throwing everybody that is "fEmAlE aLiGnEd" into the pool of eligibility for lesbians is invalidating to Women who are *only attracted to women* and not just people who "call themselves women."
@Miss Cute you say that as if it's a bad thing lol he literally is a dictator and those are bad, any sane person would say so
I just love how She-Ra got even better at representation and how one of the relationships is actually crucial
I really love the 'invisible' axis as it allows people to voice their opinions on instances whose place in the discussion isn't so set in stone(such as coded characters) but still have impact on a person or whatever, this way the conversations can be expanded to include a wider variety of voices.
EDIT: I hope I'm making sense, this topic is very interesting so I'm trying my best with the English-ing today. Really well made video!
What are your thoughts on the Netflix She-Ra? There are gay couples and even parents but without the death, a character pretty much everyone believes is Trans and the woman in charge Noelle Stevenson, is gay and encourages ships, which has inspired a same-sex proposal between fans dressed as the hero and antagonist which Noelle has a history of using the Enemies to Friends dynamic in her other works. She also stated its better to just assume all her characters are queer.
It was brief, but she does include it in the video.
Also, Double Trouble is nonbinary and everyone uses the right pronouns. I'm still very shocked and happy about the last season, it was soooo good!
who's in your pp?
I personally hate shera. Catradora makes me rly uncomfortable.I know it’s good for a main character to be lgbt but the way it was handled was awful. Catra did horrible things specifically to adora but in s5 she suddenly loves her? Also the Main characters treat entrapta and Kyle like SHIT and they’re meant to be the good guys. BUT a GREAT cartoon that the same studio put out is kipo and the age of the wonderbeasts. It has a great story, the main characters and majority of background characters are poc and it has wonderful lgbt representation. The character (I won’t name because it’ll spoil it if u wanna watch) comes out in season one and actually says the words ‘I’m gay’. I know it’s something small but for that to be in a children’s cartoon is amazing.
@@Rachel-xu7jj i get your point but the thing with Catradora is that it never came out of nowhere. Not only has it been building up the entire series but they have been in love for a very long time. I like it but i also really like seeing characters develop from bad to good a lot because catra isnt bad she’s traumatized and they work through that trauma before making catradora cannon and i really respect noelle for that
I will never forget the first time I saw the scene where Elena was sitting on the couch questioning her sexuality. I felt so seen.
Discussed media:
0:47 Modern Family
2:57 One Day At A Time
5:16 The Birdcage and La Cage Aux Folles
13:18 Gone girl
15:01 Paranorman
15:05 Skins
15:23 Moonlight
15:26 Pride
17:14 Dragon Prince
19:31 Sarah Z on double standards and diverse media
Miriam Korver the 15:05 one is skins, a UK teen drama
@@aidanjames7271 Thank you
13:18 is from gone girl :)
@@kateluddy551 Thank you
thank you so much
The only thing I would say is that She-Ra has much broader representation than just the gay parents (obviously there's season 5 but that hadn't come out when this was made) but the entire show centres around the relationship between Catra and adora, a relationship that clearly went beyond friendship
I think I know what the general criticisms about Love Simon are but when I watched that movie, idk I felt like the director and the cast, especially the guy who played Simon, really captured the emotional weight of being outed. Now, the movie is a fantasy, obvious gay boy wish fulfillment that doesn't happen this way irl. But I still was able to emotionally resonate with the movie and was even reminded of old feelings and insecurities I thought I had long buried. Not necessarily in a traumatic way, but in a way that still upset me. Idk how to explain it.
I find it interesting bc I think a lot of my response was projection. Like, finally, a movie that I can somewhat relate to. I'm not super feminine or someone's "gay best friend" and every cis gay character I had seen over different medias I was never able to see my own experiences represented in, and so the proverbial stale bread crust scraps that Love Simon was still managed to strike a chord with me.
That was its best feature. The deleted "WE are not gay!" scene scene would have been number two. I have rarely seen such a gynosupremacist gay film. What's even worse is that it seems to be almost totally unintentional.
@@seto749 I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Was Love, Simon really that bad for you?
@@nanaak8617 One helping of Idiotic Adult Male for Comic Relief might have been bearable - two was sickening. The director actually thought it was cute that Simon had to "learn how to be gay" from a girl. Cal's part, of major importance to Simon's awareness in the book, is shredded, and he's bi-erased because the director wanted one straight friend who would be nothing but sweet and kind. Jennifer Garner made it a condition of her doing the film that her character got to make that nice speech, but they cut the other scene where her character made a serious mistake, which created a huge Mom-favouring imbalance in the parental reactions. And do not get me started on the drama teacher versus the principal.
But they did get the Rage About Being Outed down nicely.
@@seto749 If it's any consolation, girls in my life have been infinitely more accepting of me than boys. I do understand somewhat where you're coming from though, and I didn't read the books so I didn't know that a bi character had been erased so that's pretty shit.
@@seto749 "gynosupremacist"...oh, a new bullshit word.
I've been meaning to watch "Pride" with Andrew Scott for a while, I just realized it's on Prime, and I just happen to have a free trial, so like, the timing on watching this video essay series is immaculate.
i feel like there’s a huge difference between taika waititi saying valkyrie was meant to be bi but marvel refused to let the scene through vs how the star wars guys talked about lando being pan. like on the surface it’s basically the same thing but deeper down the two situations are total opposites, with the ragnarok one having a very “homophobia is still a thing” vibe vs solo’s “we are inclusive pioneers” vibe
You give Taika too much credit.
I found this video because I felt sad about being gay after spending a weekend with my sister and her boyfriend and see how his views on lgbt life are changing her views and making me feel less safe in my own home but when Rowen brought up her podcast it made me happy as I listen to her podcasts and it makes me happy and safe in my home and now I have her Chantal to do the same
Her boyfriend seems like a chad.
@@RonJeremy514 🤓
17:26 To be fair, the dragon prince was praised because an article came out before season 2 and people thought they were going to queerbait, which they didn't. Yes, the queens are minor characters that die but Queen Sarai (a straight woman) also dies in that flashback. We find out they're dead before we find out they're both women. They're treated the same way as the other rulers and their deaths serve a purpose, they don't just die because they're lgbt. It's not groundbreaking rep but it's not bad rep either.
Yep. The issue with Bury Your Gays isn't that gay characters are mortal. It's that one of the lasting aftereffects of the Hayes Code is that LGBT characters are disproportionately likely to die, or in works where death is cheap (DC Comics) actually *stay* dead. It's similar to the trend in horror movies to nominally have a token minority, but kill them off first.
A show that I think is unfairly criticized here is Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Yes, they kill off Tara, a lesbian. But it's also to trigger her girlfriend's start of darkness, which is a story that happens all the time with straight couples. There *are* some legitimate issues with how Willow was portrayed, like how they never brought up the possibility of her being bisexual. But killing her SO to turn her evil isn't one of them.
The Dragon Prince has improved somewhat, though the next 4 seasons should hopefully make things more clear. Rayla's adopted fathers, Runaan (who was at the beginning of the show, but sort of died but also it's hinted at that he may still be alive, so we'll see what happens there) and [I can't remember his name] were husbands, and Amaya and Janai (I think? She's the magma elf lady) seem to be in a relationship (they hold hands and smile at the end of season 3, and are protective over each other before that)
@@heyitsdusk I believe Runaan's husband's name was Ethari although I'm not 100% sure
I get your point concerning Cam and Mitch and I would have loved to see some more open affection, especially since they seemed to have solved the conflict by telling Jay to kiss his son. But I feel like the lack of complete representation (meaning casual intimacy etc) behind any pairing that is not Phil and Claire, hence not the stereotypical norm, is missing, not just concerning Cam and Mitch. It’s like this: Cam and Mitch aren’t “straight enough” and Jay and Gloria aren’t “enough of the same age”. It’s weird cause I really love this show but it does feel like they’re kind of excusing the fact they’re not fully portraying non stereotypical couples (stereotypical being heterosexuals with a rather small age gap) by including them in the show in the first place. Like “Look, we did include different kinds of families but only the “most normal one” gets to behave the most normal. Do you get my point? :)
I noticed that Mitch&Cam are also treated differently than the straight couples in that they're less....compatible? It seems in every episode they're arguing and clearly don't trust each other/always lying to each other. They also barely interact with Lily and all in all feel much less like a family unit than the rest of the characters? The lesson for them is ALWAYS "Oh I shouldn't have lied to you!" and the next ep is them lying again. Which is a shame because I think their relationship could have been really sweet if the writers gave them more moments where they work together or are shown to like/appreciate each other outside of liking the same stereotypical gay stuff that "all" gay guys like (not cam-mitch specific as all their friends are shown to like these things). I don't know if I'm explaining it right but it's something that I noticed as the seasons went on.
Yes! Every other couple evolves and grows. Jay gets more comfortable and accepting and chill. Gloria also. They both learn to be a team and parents. Phil and Claire grow together and their problems are mostly "i forgot to do that task" but they grow on those. All four of them are fairly decent, caring parents and couples. Mitch and Cam shouldnt even be together. They are petty and foght all the time. They don't grow and they are bad parents to lily
I have to take a little bit of issue with your characterization that we must "suffer" through bad representation. One of the weird effects of being starved for representation is that sometimes "we" actually, authentically, identify with media that may be problematic. The Birdcage might be worse representation because we're meant to laugh at Albert but I still tear up every time I see the scene about the palimony agreement. This isn't an uncommon story its played out in all sorts of marginalized communities where the question is raised about which "good" and "bad" representations were allowed to identify with. You do touch on this a bit when you mention the harsh criticism queer creators sometimes deal with but I feel like it still glosses over my and many other queer peoples un-ironic love for characters like Ursula, Scar, and Jafar.
I am
*who*
I am
I almost cried at that part
And
what I
am needs
no excuses
What's the musical's name?
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ I’m not sure I heard it in a movie about gay American Italians sorry
@@gabrielmaroto18 No worries, I think its called La Cage Aux Folles (The madwomen's cage).
One day at a time is my favourite show ever !!! I can relate to Elena so much and the show and the character really helped me with my own coming out
"The parents of a main character"
*She-Ra S5 has entered the chat*
I disagree about Modern Family. I thought it was a brilliant way to introduce people who have no exposure or interaction with gay people in a relaxed, not a big deal kinda way. It's rough and there is a lot of pressure to be someone's first "gay person". Sad as it is, we are still not mainstream enough.
For their existence and interaction that certainly applys but the aspect of PDA was dealt with less than perfectly, especially after being called out hypocrisy answering without acknowledgement of the social reality.
Ok, now i feel robbed by the italian-french version of la cage aux folles because it wasn't a musical
Me too, what a shame
"Some bi people are promiscuous"
Damn, called out
The video is great and all, I mean that's obvious. But I need to tell you that I love your blue hair with that yellow sweater and those glasses. That's definitely my aesthetic.
Oh and yeah thx for the awesome video. Always doing such great work. You make the words come together for me, so I can finally pinpoint what it actually is, that bothers me in many shows and what I like about them. :)
You mentioned how the internet can help to voice criticism, but also acknowledged that the volume (and sometimes agressiveness) can put the creator(s) on the defense. What do you (or the other people in the comment section) see as a potential solution to this? I have my fair share of criticism for certain pieces of media, but most of the criticism falls into microagression territory (ex.: bury your gays, less public affection, large focus on trans character's physical appearance compared to cis people's etc...)
So it's not like the whole piece of media is bad for queer people. It's just something that...could've been done a little better.
But I am terrified to bite the hand that feeds me. There's barely any trans representation out there. I felt really upset seeing cis people criticize 'Girl' and protesting it's award nomination because I was scared that it'd confirm the 'angry trans person' stereotype and make creators more anxious to create trans rep. Hell, I myself am trans, and it made me more anxious to create trans characters. I'm a horror writer. Bad things happen to my characters. I'm scared to represent my own damn minority because the potential backlash can be so intense, against creators of all identities / walks of life. The internet is terrifying. How can we use it as a tool for constructive criticism without scaring people away from creating representation?
CryptidBoy i feel that!
@@user-wt3cx9ff1x glad I'm not alone 😊
Probably not an ideal solution, but graphs & polls come to mind. If you remove the individual comments flowing out, the potential vitriol of countless angry people on twitter and reduce it to some well-worded options that people can get behind I think it would make it more digestible & less anxiety inducing for all creators, big or small.
Sometimes people voicing criticism gets picked up by news media as 'backlash' or 'being slammed' when the vast majority of the content put out is really much more of a discussion. So I think it can be important as a creator to investigate the real responses in context, without the cloaking of whatever is re-reporting it. But for major films, reporting About backlash causes rather the same issues as backlash itself. So it's rather difficult.
Whilst I didn't personally like one day at a time, I appreciate it for the representation and am glad so many others were able to resonate with it
About The Bird Cage: in Argentina its called La Jaula de las Locas (the cage of the flamboyant gays)... And they do kiss in the version I saw but it's blurred out. So you see them close enough to kiss and then just blurred faces..
If you do an entire video on pride I would be so happy it deserves a bigger fanbase
It really does! I'm not a big fan of historical movies but Pride is just so good
The modern family one is pretty silly considering they could have easily made the issue that one of the partners feels uncomfortable being physically affectionate in public with his husband because of homophobia.
Even as a Gay man, I feel like I learn something new about myself and about the topic at hand EVERY SINGLE TIME I watch one of your videos. Truly fab!
Something funny ive noticed about my experiences compared to most movies and tv is that, they’re completely opposite. For example, my whole friend group is LGBT+ in some way, but i have one straight friend, instead of the one token gay character. Or, instead of a token girl, its all girls and we had one male friend. What im trying to say is, gay people find other gay people. Im tired of one gay character, or one couple.
Not everyone is like this though. I'm a lesbian in a group of straight males.
This is precisely the distinction between assimilation and liberation. Assimilation seeks to show that gay people are atomised, solitary individuals floating along and hopefully finding a group of straights to take them in. Liberation shows that gay people can exist by themselves, apart from straight society, creating their own path through life.
(This is not to invalidate the experiences of those who are, in effect, "the token gay" in real life, but to recognise that the media defining gay people in relation to straight people, rather than for our own sake, promotes a very specific mindset)
Oh, I am so looking forward to your take on _Love, Simon!_ Can't wait!
On a more positive note: I'm loving this series so far! Really looking forward to the next video. I trust you to be insightful and nuanced, as you have been in the past 😊
Love this video! The comparison between the musical and film Birdcage is incredible. So in love with the way you walked us through the differences between them. ❤️❤️❤️ first video I’ve seen of yours and I’m hooked!
If we are going to analyze the artistic quality of a movie and its importance to cinema at large, it’s kinda undeniable that the “low budget indie movies” are far more significant precisely because they are not tied to big corporations, therefore they have more freedom. Catch movies from early Todd Haynes, Kenneth Anger crazy experimentations, Gus Van Sant’s My Own Private Idaho, Jean Genet’s Un Chant d’Amour, the cinema of Chantal Akerman, Fassbinder or Derek Jarman, they are so bold thematically and aesthetically that influence not only contemporary queer cinema but cinema and art in general (TV, music, fashion, etc…) even if unintentionally. And nowadays if we catch the movies of Robin Campillo, Céline Sciamma, João Pedro Rodrigues, just to name a few, they are all prized as high-quality art and big cinematic achievements.
Love your videos, by the way!
I love the contrast of your hair on your shirt! Gorg!! 🥳
Rowan you make it hard to make my transition from Instagram critiques to a video incarnation when you keep making these awesome videos that just constantly knock it out of the ballpark. Keep up the awesome work !!😊
Oh c'mon, The Birdcage movie highlights different aspects of the story than the musical, it all depends on how you compare them. The movie is clearly more centred around the idea of family, since the theme song is literally "we are family" by Sister Sledge. It's more appropriate to show the marriage between the kids, and how two families truly become one.
About "I am who I am", she compared the clip of the dramatic ending of act 1 to the first 5 minutes of the movie, not to mention the fight is also in the musical.
I personally prefer that the movie shows a more feminine side of Gorges/Armand, having Robin Williams doing different sassy dances, lecturing his son that he's who he is and wears foundation proudly. The movie also dealt with Albert's short departure through a more serious conversation rather than just declaration of love. The clip here ua-cam.com/video/5a7eGUDTCa4/v-deo.html should have been included in this video if this video was created with non-partial arguments, because having someone you share a deep connection with and wants to be buried together with and share alimony with is way more profound than saying "oh I'm young and in love".
Ooh that part you said about your podcast reminded me. I love your podcast. Of all of the queer podcasts, yours' is my favorite
I really do appreciate these videos because I often fight with other LGBT+ people about representation and most from where Im from (very conservative county) are under the impression that we should just be grateful we were thought of. these videos give me a way to say what I want to say when I personally can't find the words.
I need to hug you! How can you be so precise, profound and intellectual? I should have discovered your channel a longer time ago!
I really, really love this topic. It's one that's really close to my heart.
Best believe I made an account just so I can comment on this video. You are such an inspiring person and I love how you talk about queer issues in today’s society. I am LGBTQ+ and so are some of my friends. I just wanted to say how much we appreciate someone make us visible. Honestly, I haven’t related so much to a video in ages and whereas I’d usually skip bits of any video - I watched every second. Thank you.
Also I’m the UK tooo 🤪🤪
I read the title (out loud) and said "I don't know what that means but I am EXCITED TO LEARN!" (also out loud... I have got to stop speaking to myself)
It's amazing how your videos always articulate what i haven't been able to express especially about representation and i just love these kinds of videos so much!!
The work you do is amazing! I always love watching your videos. I think you manage to fully acknowledge the complexity of the subjects and explore each aspects.
Thank you for putting so much time and thought into these videos, they are always enlightening!
I know it’s not really “””cinema””” but I would love to hear your thoughts on queer representation in reality tv!
Aside from RPDR, the latest season of MTV’s Are You The One has a sexually fluid cast, and Bachelor in Paradise has their first wlw couple on it at the moment.
I know these aren’t the first instances of representation in the genre, but I think it’s pretty significant for a genre that can be extremely conservative and overrun by cishet characters & relationships.
Wonderful video! I can't wait for part 3
I hadn't heard of your videos before but UA-cam recommended this one and I'm glad it did! Thanks for talking about this in a really easy to follow/understand way!
That graph is super helpful. You've put words to something I've been struggling with, and it recognises the representation without forgetting its flaws.
Also, I live for odaat
As always, thanks for discussing this.
I can't quite express how much i love your videos, especially because I never knew how much i needed this until I saw it and now i'm sitting here binge watching your stuff and it's absolutely amazing
So informative and eloquent!! you should be really proud of yourself for making such a CLASS video! love your work
I love this series delving into queer representation in film/media. I'm looking forward to the next one.
Such a great video, and how did I not know until just now that La Cage Aux Foiles is a musical? I knew about the original French movie and the American version, but somehow I didn't know it was also a musical! I'm going to be looking for it on Spotify right now.
Hi! I loved chatting to you a bit at SITC! thanks for letting me know about the newsletter thingy, I can’t wait to start reading the box set of first chapters book :)
I love this absolutely so much. I recently had gotten into it with some people about a new Power Rangers character from the comics being gay and I struggled with getting it across as to why its important and why it IS a big enough deal for people to write articles about. I feel like the way you explain things is so much bettering easier to understand than how I did.
Boy oh boy, learning a lot from your videos. New viewer from NY, thanks for all the work you do on this channel!!!
Whenever I see one of your videos I learn so much. Every time I gain a lot of insight.
Such a great matrix to examine queer content, thank you for a great video :)
The quality of research and analysis in this series is incredible.
This is fantastic. You pointed out things things that I never noticed before or considered before. Thank you.
I enjoy this channel so much!!! Your analysis are amazing and SO interesting. So much love!!! 💕
You are so wonderfully articulate on the subject. This was so well said. Thanks for food for thought
This is the first video by you I've seen, love it, love you.
ugh this !!!!!! you’ve literally put all my jumbled up thoughts about queer media into a logical and calmly explained video tysm rowan i’m so excited to see the next video 🥰🥰
I absolutely love this video and your channel! I actually wrote an essay with this video in mind for my queer literature class. You got at points I’ve been trying to articulate for years
oh you had me at "two axes, four quadrum graph"
A TV Show that really made an good job representing LGBTQ+ people is Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, there's 3 bi characters (2 of them are very important for the plot), one gay man and one lesbian woman. They aren't portrayed as stereotypes, all of them have their own story, development and personality. Darryl, one of the bi characters, for example, is a middle age man, who manages an lawyer firm, has a daughter and wants more kids, he find out he is bi and come out to his employees with a song (it's a musical show, btw). Really, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is amazing.
It's a great show
I love this however she didn’t draw the graph with a ruler
Terrible _gamer36 bc then the line would be straight
This is a fantastically cogent look at the nuances that are often hard to truly express as to why one piece of media will make me feel seen, whereas another will make me feel exploited. Thanks.
I think the original French film was the culprit in the change of storyline - the Birdcage was a carbon copy of it... It remarkably played in cinemas here in Australia for years after its release in the late 70s....
Thank you for this video. Before watching it I had never heard of Pride. It is a superb film!
I know that this isn’t a mainstream English movie, but I do want to mention that in Korea, The Handmaiden was a mainstream movie where the lesbian love story was basically the main focus of the movie. Not only that, but I’d say that it was the best movie of the year.
UA-cam autoplayed this for me so i've been CLOCKED, but i thought your content was wonderful & insightful!
I'm so thankful I found out about La Cage Aux Folles from this video!
i really want someone to make a website with this liberation vs assimilation chart and have people input tons of different shows and movies and we can see the data on how they look in the plot. I think that would be so cool
If a film about a trans guy is going to be super realistic is his name should be some form Aidan/Kaiden 😂😂😂 (jk)
Lol 😁
Finn, Alex, or Eliot here in my local community haha
Or Sam
i know three trans Oliver’s lol
I'm SCREAMING because I'm writing a TV series and the main character is a trans guy named Aiden 😂😂😂
I love this series you are working on and I am looking forward to watching each video in it. I would also love it if you can look into video games with LBGT characters. Listed below are ten games series to look into if would like to as a starter. Best of luck and good wishes to you.
1. Mass Effect 1-3
2. Life is Strange
3. Borderlands 2-3
4. Dragon Age 1-3
5. Star Wars the Old Republic
6. Guild Wars 2
7. The Last of Us
8. The Elder Scrolls series
9. Night in the Woods
10. Jade Empire
@@HeyRowanEllis Some of the lgbt gaming channels I know are , geek remix, angelarts and kathleenmms.
There's a Podcast called "If it's gay, we play" that talks about most of these
my father LOVES the mass effect series (except andromeda or some title similar; don't remember the exact name but i do remember him making _heavy_ emphasis on that) and couldn't recommend the series to me enough. i suspect among the many reasons why he kept pushing the game to me, was because he secretly knew am a horny bi and the player could get with practically anyone in that game. 👁️👄👁️
@@MrROBERTJOHNSMITH No Fallout New Vegas!? That would be my no.1!
Man I love night in the woods
i love gaining new vocab to voice these kind of ideas
Your videos are so god damn interesting and pretty much my only source of culture. Love this analysis!