When you talked about straight actors commenting on their gay roles I remembered a thing Daniel Radcliffe said that positively surprised me. The question was something along the lines of "How did you feel playing a gay character?" and his answer was basically "Gay actors are never asked that when playing straight roles, so I'm not even gonna comment on that" and I thought it was a nice move
Whenever I see straight actors getting praised for bravely playing a gay character, all I can think of is that running gag from Parks and Rec where men keeping winning the woman of the year award
FearlessAstridHofferson Not what I said, but it’s definitely an interesting topic, so sure, we can discuss. Keep in mind I’ve never seen either of those movies, so I’m coming in blind here on that regard. Coming from the perspective of an actor, I had a teacher once tell me something along of the lines of how acting is living truthfully in an imaginary circumstance. A good actor can make you believe that. Straight actors can sympathize and speculate the difficulties that come along with being queer, but queer actors will always have an edge that helps them be more authentic. That, and it’s nice to see representation not just in the characters but also in the cast. But, do I think straight actors should be banned from playing queer characters? No, that’d be a little much, and also near impossible to enforce, since I’d hate for an actor to feel like they have to come out or they won’t get to play characters that are important to them in that regard. Idk, I’d have to take some more philosophy courses before I really delved into a solution. I just thought the parks and rec thing was funny.
Facts! Hollywood goes far beyond just being white. They're white, cisgender, and heterosexual. It's extremely hard for people who aren't either of those things to find work. It feels kinda like salt on a wound when they get straight people to play roles for Gay actors who actually could do better
@FearlessAstridHofferson It's not like we're saying he didn't do good in that role, we're saying it perpetuates a narrative where Hollywood only hires people who are straight
It made me FURIOUS when Simon's friends just...resumed being friends after treating him like sh*t at his most vulnerable moment in the story with a garbage "why didn't you tell us" justification. Pretty sure there was no apology either. Incensed.
I know right! It was so jarring and I couldnt let it go for the rest of the movie. I think they even watch him get bullied for being gay and they do absolutely nothing. Which implys that they believe he deserves that for " lying" to them. They are not good friends and Simon should disengage from the ASAP. This was a movie/book where the "betrayed friends/lover" romance genre staple did not need to happen.
That's the only part that really made me made in the movie too! In the book, they handle everything completely differently. Simon has a New Years Party and everybody makes up there. Also, I think it's worth mentioning that despite the fact that Simon was blackmailed, he did still try to manipulate his friends which isn't that great either. Both sides should have had an apology moment. I also think the book handles the whole romantic gesture better. Simon still meets Blue at the fair, but it's closing time and they do it alone. There's no public grand gesture. I think one thing I really liked about Love Simon was Simon's character. Like him, I'm not the most "obviously" gay kid out there. So seeing somebody who wears hoodies and isn't around all this LGBTQ culture was really relatable for me. I ended up watching Love Simon at least 3 times.
The whole plot line gets hand waved too quickly. The blackmailer was gross and the fact that wealthy white Simon allowed a working class woman of color to be harassed and publicly humiliated by him is a bigger deal than the film admits.
Yeah. When I re-watched the movie, I saw that conflict again, and I always thought that part really bugged me. Like, I get it. He lied to y'all. Just to hook one of y'all up with a random weirdo. Pretty D*cky move. But are y'all THAT mad about it? Y'all feel betrayed? Dude was being blackmailed! The weirdo was going to out him! That's MUCH worse than what he put y'all through. I know y'all just kids, but DAMN...
I feel like what happened with Love, Simon was that even though it was a gay story, it was marketed towards straight people? Not sure if that makes sense? Like obviously LGBT+ people were going to watch it, but the story was changed so that straight people could tolerate it .
fat truth, it’s common to see movies that feature minorities represented to be toned down for the general audience, as to not exclude the mainstream and lose ratings and a large part of the viewers. Big companies care much more about profit, and they don’t want to polarise their audience.
The book reads as a gay fan fiction that isn't fan fiction of anything. It's clearly written by a woman who enjoys gay people as a trend over being a story, I've read gay teen fiction that is written by actual gay people. They actually discuss things that really go through gay teens minds and into young adulthood. The sequel is even worse because it is clear that the author is really trying to fix certain things but through the eyes of a bisexual character who is even more fan fiction like.
The book of Love, Simon, though probably still has problems, is a lot better. His friends aren't horrible in it and if I remember correctly the scene on the Ferris wheel was more private and didn't have tonnes of people watching (I don't think Simon's friends were even watching)
This video made me look it up bc I was thinking “I really don’t remember it like that” and none of his friends were there and very few strangers were there as the carnival was closing. I can’t remember if the internalized homophobia stuff was in the book or not tho
@@miche8868 He was not, in the book, Simon seemed more genuine, and scared, making him much more relatable. For example, when his dad says something slightly ignorant in regards to the lgbtq+ community, Simon is described to tense up. I think that scene should have been included in the film (I'm pretty sure it wasn't) since many lgbt youth become more scared to come out from seemingly insignificant comments.
I think straight actors can play gay characters and the other way around too, my only concern is not giving the same praise to gay actors or even the same recognition straight actors get
While that is true, it does make you wonder if the flaws of the movie would have been so pronounced if there had been more input from LGBT main actors on the matter.
I always wondered this until a friend of mine who worked in the industry told me that people never see gay actors(with few exceptions, think like Neil Patrick Harris or Queen Latifah)to be believable to act straight compared to straights because all they can think about is the person really being gay in real life. Which we both thought was bullshit when it’s known that gay people are the best straight actors when in the closet so really homophobia could play a part in this in my opinion.
@@marcusdilworth6661 i honestly know very few gay actors with large roles, whoa. one of my favorite actors, brandon flynn, played an incredible, stereotypical, straight™ guy in 'thirteen reasons why' (i know the show's awful, haha). it actually makes a lot of sense that people are too close-minded to see someone who they know is gay as a straight character. that explains so much..
Oh my god, YES. I read the book before watching the movie, I love the ending of the book and HATE the ending of the movie. it just felt so unrelateable to me! as a gay teen I NEVER would've kissed a girl in public like that, certainly not at the time when I wasn't out to anyone yet. people don't get just how scary coming out is. it's a long emotional process, not something you're done with in 10 mins.
Yes I agree. Despite of the end you could always see how scared Simon was of coming out, so the end didn't really made any sense. Why would he suddenly not be scared anymore? And why would blue come if he was even more careful than Simon?
You would never, I would never, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. People are too different for any character to be relatable to everyone at all times, and one of those differences among people I how we respond to fear.
@@Asdfgh-xr6qw That's certainly true; the way the characters were portrayed in the film might be relatable to some people. But I feel like it doesn't actually make sense for the characters. Based on the clues the film gives us about the characters, we know that Simon was very afraid to come out, and wasn't allowed to come out to his friends and his school of his own accord. And although his willingness to kiss Blue in front of his friends and a lot of his classmates could be explained by him having expressed a desire to be out and to have an open relationship with Blue, it doesn't explain Blue's sudden willingness to be open about his sexuality to most of the school. In the book (spoilers for the book) this was done differently with how Simon was riding the tilt-a-whirl by himself and Blue appearing to tell him that he was Blue. There wasn't anyone around that knew them and they didn't kiss until they were completely alone in Simon's car. I think this makes a lot more sense based on what we already know about the characters, especially Blue, and it doesn't present the narrative that Simon essentially forces Blue to come out to everyone by making a grand gesture in front of a lot of people
While Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda certainly has a lot of problems, I absolutely adored the Ferris wheel scene. It was so beautiful and romantic and amazing and, most importantly, it was intimate. In the book, Simon has pretty much given up on the fact that Blue is coming. He buys the ticket to the Ferris wheel (actually in the book it's a Tilt-A-Whirl but that's besides the point) and waits for Blue. By the end, there's nobody there. It's just him. And right before Simon is about to leave, Blue shows up. It's entirely his own choice and it isn't impacted by anyone else and _that_ is what makes the scene so good. The fact that they are completely devoid of an audience makes the rest of the world fall away and the two boys are able to share this incredibly intimate and romantic scene alone together. *but nope hollywood wanta da big romance scene yabadabadabawoooooooo*
Yeah, they wanted to give the gays the same experience as straights have in films so far but it's not something good in straight films either and even this film shows it with Martin imposing it to Abby. Compromising, even if Blue's identity was unrevealed since he said he wasn't ready.
Sierra Farnum I don’t know if this is what you are looking for but there are some series with wlw content you might like. Legends of Tomorrow is a series about time traveling superheros. Sara lance, one of the main protagonists, is a bisexual characters, who has many flings with female historical figures throughout and eventually gets a stable girlfriend in season 3. Maybe you are interested. And Wynonna earp is a show about demon hunting. The main character herself is not queer but it is fair to say that the queer characters and romances are treated very well in the show.
I hear what you're saying. And I think your criticisms are valid. I liked the narrative of Love, Simon specifically because it pointed out that even if you're from a "progressive" family and there is no threat of violence, coming out can still be terrifying. My parents always told me it would be okay if I was gay, but when I finally realized I wasn't straight I was still scared, and stayed in the closet for a few years. There are always underlying homophobic/heteronormative tones to everyday life, even if you're not from a conservative area. I just found Love, Simon really relatable to my own experience with coming out. And I was so happy to watch something gay that didn't also have to be tragic. I get so tired of tragedies. That being said, Love, Simon definitely has problems. And I think anyone should be allowed to criticize it. Wonderful video as usual
i agree wholeheartedly with you! simon's thought process, background and feelings felt incredibly relatable to me personally, but it's not without flaws
same goes for me. I asked my parents when i was 13 what they would say/do if i would realize that i was a lesbian. They said it would be fine 5 years later i realized that i was bi and didn't had the courage to out myself for two years
@@sporesims9303 this is exactly the same as my experience! except I realised 7 years later and it took me 1 year to come out. I knew my parents wouldn't kick me out or anything, but at the same time they wouldn't exactly be thrilled, and I'm still trying to get rid of a lot of ingrained ideas now, it takes a lot of reassessing and positivity but I'm glad you managed to learn more about yourself and share that with your parents!
same here! my family's fine eith lgbtq+ stuff but i'm still terrified to come out for no real reason. i'm out to mum but not on my own accord and not my dad or siblings, nor extended family (a few exceptions). even my religious family is fine with it. it's just scary and i think love, simon portrayed that experience and feeling beautifully. i do still love and respect rowan's opinion and understand where she's coming from.
@@-somatryoshka same here. I can totally understand it but i also think that Love Simon (no matter what problem it has) was really appealing to young LGBTQ fans because it was a comedy and noone died i wish you a lot of luck and strength with your coming out
The fact that there are not one but TWO lesbian Emily Dickenson comedies and a film about a lesbian paleontologist...I have never felt so delightfully pandered to in my life. Is this how The Heteros™️ feel 24/7?
Prolly not, an abundance of it makes you desensitized to it. Like whenever I see two men fall in love on a show or movie it literally makes my heart explode with happiness, although I imagine if I got to see that in like every single piece of media the reaction would lessen.
@@Hellooo134 yeah that definitely depends on a person's experience. for me, living in an overtly homophobic country where queer films aren't even made nor shown in regular cinemas, seeing a show like the L word was revolutionary and comforting (even though I can never relate to rich LA lesbians lmao. and the show wasn't even that good when I revisit it now). So i'd rather have 'an abundance' of it than none and have to seek it out in secret like I did in my teens. Also, not every queer representation is the same - there's endless variations of the queer experience in real life so there's endless ways of portraying that in art. If we can have so many mediocre hetero stories why not queer ones as well? Queer stories are treated as the outlier and someday hopefully that won't be the case and it will be just...another story, and that's ok.
So I go to a very religious prep school (lmao I'm closeted) and for English class we had to do some poetry analysis for homework. I analyzed an Emily Dickinson poem and I wrote about how it could be expressing her love for Susan Gilbert and the teacher had a dumbfounded look on her face when she read it. She only told me that "I didn't know you knew so much about Emily Dickinson's life". I told her that it's about time Yeshivas acknowledge that gays exist. (A Yeshiva is a Jewish private school). She told me she agreed. To be honest, I expected her to be homophobic, which is a prejudice I need to rid myself of. I know many religious Jews who aren't homophobic. It's getting a lot better.
@@vildekm feel ya. My country has very homophobic goverment (but society is better esp in big cities) so I literally squeek with joy, when I saw ad for Samsung (I think) where two women where having ultrasound of their baby AND IT WAS ON NATIONAL TV! My grandma, who was sittting next to me didn't even noticed that, so... :P Yeah, I would rather have an abundance of them.
When I watched Love, Simon (not having read the book) I fully expected Blue not to show up at the Ferris Wheel. I thought that Simon would sit there alone for a while and then join his friends, only for Blue to approach him later, tell him he's not ready to come out, but that he likes him, too... I think that may have worked bettter...
That’s a bit like how the book was like. Blue came to Simon on his own, near the end where few people were still there. He came when he was ready, a plot line was that Blue was there when he was ready.
I agree, we need representation, but that does not mean we can't be critical of what we are given. Also lovely video, I didn't like "Simon vs. The homosapiens agenda" or "Love Simon" as much as I felt I was supposed too. I just didn't find the protagonist very interesting. And I am a cis white gay teenager.
I absolutely hated that the “romantic cute” ending was essentially forcing Blue to out himself in front of everyone... Also, Simon just forgave the guy who outed him? The fuxk?
@@ohdominoe6985 I’m pretty sure Simon said “No pressure” or something like that in a way to tell Blue he has no obligation to do it and he shouldn’t feel pressured to come out if he isn’t ready, Bram showing up was his way of saying he was ready and wanted to come! It wasn’t manipulation it was his only way of reaching out to him so he could get the message because they didn’t have emails anymore. Does that make sense? I don’t know if my phrasing sounds right, let me know if that sounds mean sorry.
I don’t. As a gay man myself I never felt properly represented by any LGBT film or the community before. I always felt like I was different from the rest because I was gay, but also because I was a ‘straight’ gay. My hurt was always made invalid and so was the discrimination I faced because I was ‘straight-passing.’ For me, Love Simon was the first LGBT film that made me feel properly represented and it really helped me accept who I am. There’s plenty of LGBT films focussing on breaking the norms put onto us by the heteronormal society, but this was the first film that embraced ‘heteronormal gay’s’ if that makes sense.
@@roy_hks Agreed. Straight-passing gays can still have problems, and many don't have as accepting parents and friends as Simon did. I would actually argue that in some ways it can be harder to come out because people don't expect you to be gay and your social groups may be less accepting because if you weren't "straight-passing" they wouldn't have been friends with you in the first place
@@roy_hks I'm genuinely confused about what a straight-passing gay is. Loads of queer people can look straight, for example bi folk have a lot of issues with that but pointing out how you as a homosexual didn't relate to experience of being homosexual because you think and act like hetero is just kinda weird. Like, congrats on behaving like straight people ig? And if you mean the near universal experience of being treated as a straight person by others... then that's literally what 99/100 queer people go through weekly and acting like it's some not talked about thing or secret just makes it seem like you've not engaged in many conversations and queer media. The reason that mold is usually broken is because it doesn't fit people.
@@crazydragy4233 I’m not sure I understand what you mean. I was trying to say that I rarely felt represented by gay characters because straight writers often forced them into more typical gay stereotypes, which I like many others in the community simply don’t fit. And the notion upheld by straight writers in the past, that gay people behave and should be portrayed according to certain stereotypes is harmful and homophobic.
-- Movies, short films and series mentioned or referenced in this video, with timestamps: -- Love, Simon (2018) Friends with Benefits (2011) 8:40 Mean Girls (2004) 9:00 Booksmart (2019) 13:00 What If It's Us? (2019?) 13:20 Giant Little Ones (2018) 13:35 Rafiki (2018) 13:50 The Favourite (2018) 17:10 Tell It to the Bees (2018) 17:35 Portrait of a Lady on Fire (2019) 18:05 Bernadette/Je m'appelle Bernadette(?) (2011?) 18:25 Vita & Virginia (2018) 18:35 Wild Nights with Emily (2018) 18:50 Dickinson (2019) 19:00 Hidden Figures (2016) 19:45 Ammonite (2020) 20:15 Lizzie (2018) 21:15 Colette (2018) 21:20 Invisible Women (2019) 22:00 Bohemian Rhapsody (2018) 22:15 Rocketman (2019) 22:20 Eddie the Eagle (2015) 23:00 Kingsman: The Golden Circle (2017) 23:05 Boy Erased (2018) 23:10 The Knight Before Christmas (2019) 25:30 Happiest Season (2020) 25:35 Black Panther (2018) 27:55 Green Book (2018) 29:15 Can You Ever Forgive Me? (2018) 29:20 Jungle Cruise (2020) 33:55 Jack Whitehall: Travels with My Father (2017- ) 34:15 Philadelphia (1993), Capote (2005), Milk (2008) 35:35 Pose (2018- ), The OA (2016-2019) 37:05 Anemone (2018) 38:25 Dressed for Pleasure/Je fais où tu me dis (2017) 38:35
I also feel like the book wasn't as bad as the movie for example the scene in the end was very public in the movie yet in the book they're still at the carneval but nobody sees them/is aware of them. Which I thought was a very big difference. Thank you for the video!
One consideration with regards to whether we should give gay roles to straight actors is that we don't necessarily know if an actor is straight or not because they could be closeted. I believe Keiynan Lonsdale was in the closet when he landed his role in Love Simon for example, and came out partially because of his involvement with the film. So only casting out queer people for queer roles gets a little tricky when we consider we may be asking someone to come out earlier than they would otherwise in order to land a role. Also, if you have a local theatre that isn't Cineplex or something, talk to them and ask them if they're getting the queer films you're interested in! They often book screenings based on assumed interest, so letting them know what you want to see is a good way to get them to potentially screen more queer cinema.
And yet, it's still predominantly straight people playing gay roles in movies. Like, sure, let's not assume anyone's sexuality, but why can't roles go to people who are able to speak to the experiences as the character, rather than give it to an actor who is assumed straight but use "well, we can't assume anyone's sexuality" as an excuse to do so?
Yeah, this is something a lot of people just brush over and I wish they wouldn’t. I’m friends with an actor who only felt comfortable coming out as queer after landing a role as a queer character in a Trevor Project short. They’ve said that if they were asked about their sexuality while auditioning, they probably would’ve said straight, and then not gotten the role that helped them come out. If you know anyone in the industry, you realize this happens way more often than the public generally thinks, and it’s really important to keep that in mind.
There have been quite a few big name celebrities in the past few years who were accused of queerbaiting long before they came out (or partially came out), and in hindsight, their "baiting" in the past was an attempt to be seen or test the water, and I can't help but feel really bad for them knowing they got backlash from the very people whose support they'd desire the most because it was perceived as bait. And a few of them, despite toeing out of the closet, have inched back in after that backlash, and it's sad and we can honestly do better.
@@BlackXSunlight I'm interested in how someone inches back in the closet? Like, I don't condone hating on or bullying people for playing a part (within reason, obviously) but that doesn't mean that these conversations shouldn't be had. And also, what would it have been like if these actors were to have been out of the closet before auditioning? I can't help but feel like it ironically would have stifled their chances (look at Rupert Everett) which is the issue that gay actors have to deal with.
love, simon to me has always been an emotional support movie of mine, definitely as a young queer person it was one of the first teen type movies about sexuality, so i still hold it v dear to me. but thank you for acknowledging things that i saw past, some things did irk me but only subconsciously. i do disagree slightly about the coming out to his mum scene (even as a person who’s closeted to my parents for personal safety) because as you said, there are different queer narratives for everyone, and it was refreshing to see familial acceptance, but i do still recognise that the majority of the lgbt community don’t benefit from this priveledge, love ur videos as always though rowan thank u for giving your insight!!!!
To be honest, Simon’s «well maybe not that gay » comment reminded me of Isak from Skam. For those of you who aren’t in the cult, basically season 3 of the show followed Isak’s budding relationship with a boy named Even, and his struggle with his sexuality, and coping with his boyfriend’s mental health. He lives in an apartment with two people, one is a very openly gay man named Eskild. Eskild was talking to Isak about being gay (I don’t remember the exact conversation) and Isak made a joke about how he wasn’t going to be like those queers wearing mascara (something like that, basically just ripping on the femme community) and it instantly lead to a lecture from Eskild, telling Isak that he had no right to make fun of people who were just being themselves and that it was those men and women’s bravery who made it possible to allow Isak to feel comfortable enough to come out. The show included that internalised homophobia and addressed it immediately, allowing for major character growth on Isak’s part.
In a way I think the fact that Love, Simon is kinda flawed, oversimplified and unrealistic is what makes it so amazing. Straight teen romances have been flawed, oversimplified and unrealistic for decades, and it's great that a gay teen romance is too. It's not arthouse or indie or Cannes worthy, it's just an upper end of average film. It's remarkable and groundbreaking because it inherently isn't remarkable or groundbreaking.
Thank you. Exactly what I was thinking. Rom-coms aren't intended to be nuanced or complicated. Straight people get unrealistic love movies all the time and it just felt so good to see exactly this light-hearted, imperfect plot full of romcom tropes, only with a gay protagonist.
@@a.s.03 While that is true, I think that, as a queer poc myself, we still deserve to see ourselves properly represented in films that aren't always depressing and dark.
@@misanthropicblackchick6092 Love Victor is much better representation of gay people of all experiences. They have done a better job in it than Love Simon.
I'm surprised that Gentleman Jack wasn't mentioned (or maybe it wasn't out when you were scripting the video?). I found her attitude to her sexuality freeing and healing, and I'm very much looking forward to season 2!
Especially interesting how these documents could have easily been lost at multiple points in history! Makes you wonder how many other people in history made similar documents that were discovered and destroyed by homophobic descendents/people. ua-cam.com/video/143o4C5uZyA/v-deo.html
You really made me realize how rather twisted that whole ending gesture is... it really was basically forcing Blue to out himself. I was also bothered by what I would consider to be interphobia in the film when Ethan makes some come-back quip to the bullies about them having a "micropenis", which struck me as rather thoughtless, because it was like "We're raising up gay boys, but we're gonna put down some other LGBT+ folks and their bodies while we're at it!"
yes, jokes about penis size always seem really thoughtlessly cruel to me, and in the context of a "feel-good" queer movie it seemed especially tone deaf! it's like they never considered that not everyone who's gay or queer is cis or has the same kind of body
@@hubertisnotmyname Agreed! It was moments like that that demonstrated a surprisingly narrow-minded train of thought. Another moment that demonstrated that for me was the scene when Martin comes to Simon's house dressed as a "Freudian Slip" and Simon scrutinizes him for wearing a dress to their Halloween party and looking "like a drag queen". I'm a trans woman and watching that scene felt like a let-down. It's like this film wanted to affirm gay kids BUT it also wanted everyone to conform to the same old gender roles and never mess with the status quo.
bluestrawbowl Jesus my dude quit overthinking it. He insulted his bullies, insults aren’t pc and you ever consider the character is not pc himself? Doesn’t mean the movie is saying you should bully micro penis individuals, it’s just something the character says. Oh and just because your a homosexual with a small penis doesn’t mean your trans.
So I’m a white cisgender straight guy, so obviously my opinion here comes with a big grain of a salt, but I’d like to point out something about Ethan and Simon’s dynamic, there’s a bit where they and two bullies are sent to the principal’s office, and while The bullies are getting their “stern talking to” Ethan asks Simon why he never talked to him about being gay, and Simon jokes it was because they don’t have much in common but then admits it was mostly because he was jealous that Ethan seemed to have it so easy as far as being out goes, and Ethan in turn rants about how not easy his life is. And while Simon never overtly apologizes for his rather nasty opinion, Simon does look very uneasy sitting next to Ethan, which you can look at as him being Aware of his shitty words and being uncomfortable being potentially confronted by the person his shitty words were about. Maybe I’m grasping at straws, but I think the movie deserves credit for this at least. I will say, I see your point with the rest of your commentary about the film. The stuff you say about Simon being blackmailed and then pressuring his crush into publicly outing himself is definitely something that rings poorly.
Actually, you're quite right. Ethan's putting Simon firmly in his place is one of the highlights and a rare moment of male competence in the film. Unfortunately, they all come with a price.
@@WoodstockProd When any of the male characters get a strong moment, there's always a sting in the tail. Ethan puts Simon in his place, but has to be made into the stereotypical Gay Best Friend that girls would want to take shopping. Cal is genuinely kind and supportive, but his character is practically gutted as well as turned straight (though we're only told that in the commentary) because that was the kind of friend the director wished he'd had in real life. Simon's father has to ruin his good supportive moment and emphasize how superior a parent Simon's mother is (although that was partly because they deleted a scene where she oversteps and Simon has to cry out, "WE are not gay!"), etc. I don't think it was entirely deliberate, but there's a strong undercurrent of Women's being Better At Life.
seto749 that’s fair, but I think that’s kind of just unfortunate tropes typical to a lot of American entertainment. While I like the film, I don’t think it’s good specifically because of it’s director, who’s very well known for giving the world Dawson‘s Creek. I’m not defending him mind, I’m just saying this isn’t something I think is uniquely problematic about Love, Simon. Though I should say, it not being a unique issue, doesn’t make it not an issue
@@WoodstockProd You're right that it's certainly a common thing. It does rankle more in what purports to be a gay film, though, in a lesbian film, I'd likely consider it an asset if well done. I'd like the whole Alphabet Soup to have an amicable divorce and each letter be considered separately on its own merits - we can make good neighbours, but we're bad housemates.
I don't necessarily have a problem with looking at historical women who never married and projecting lesbian narratives onto them, because that was surely the case for many of those women, but I would also appreciate if more people projected or even just acknowledged potentially asexual narratives. I would LOVE a historical drama featuring an explicitly asexual heroine. I know the people who assume secret gay relationships are usually only doing it because they're looking for representation for themselves, but it does sting a little bit when people don't acknowledge that asexuality is a possibility as well. I always feel like my sexuality is treated as the boring, less interesting option when there could be SEX or ROMANCE. I hope representation for asexuals and aromantics gets better in years to come.
There's a Portuguese poet/writer called Fernando Pessoa that never married and its believed he died a virgin because the one known relationship he had was with a woman, through letters only (he always refused to meet with her) and I do believe he was asexual, given his poems, because as opposed to many other poets, he never seemed to have a hint of want or will or anything in terms of sexual, or, for that matter, romantic interest.
Melissa C Id recommend a gentleman’s guide to vice and virtue, and then a ladies guide to petticoats and piracy. The first one has an ace girl as a character, and the second has her as a lead.
It's understandable. I mean how would you feel if you were being manipulated by your best friend and even got your heart broken over being black mailed? Chances are you'd be pretty pissed too. Yeah, you'd probably forgive them eventually, but it would take time
Amira Elisabeth Wiley heart broken, though? i personally do not think it was that serious. okay, so he tried to get martin with abby. so what? i understand why abby would be upset, but it literally wasn’t that serious if you understand why he did it. he told nick that abby didn’t like him. so what? is your life over now? are you going to die? you’ll never find love again after abby? like girl. it’s not that damn serious. and him not knowing leah liked him is not his fault. him actually setting her up on a date with nick was nice, unless i misunderstood and simon actually knew leah liked him. all of these things are minor compared to simon’s issue. i would think these teens would understand why he did it?? it’s not like they’re 50 year old conservative adults...youre 17 and 18 year old teens growing up in the age of acceptance. are they just that slow or did the writers try to force a conflict between them?
@@ashtonb7931 what I wish was addressed was the thought that if someone blackmailed and manipulated you to get with your friend would you not have concerns that that same person would then blackmail and manipulate your friend to stay with them? I really hated Martin but I also had a problem with Simon because I felt like the thought didn't occur to him that he could be getting his friend into a potentially abusive relationship to keep his secret. He at least owed Abby that explanation because she was potentially at risk. I felt like they made it more about relationship drama to keep the light hearted feel of the movie. That was one of the reasons I didn't like it.
Portait De La Jeune Fille En Feu is actually and incredibly beautiful movie (in terms of cinématography), it talks about women painters, about gay relationships, is made by a gay woman, it's really great, go see it
One thing that fascinated me about Rocketman was that it was framed so heavily as a platonic love story between Bernie and Elton. It's such a soft and intimate portrayal of their friendship, and it hits a lot of stereotypical love story beats. There is one 'no-homo' scene (maybe that happened in real life, but I have a suspicion they threw that in so the mainstream audience, who probably know that Elton John is queer and might not know who Bernie Taupin is, don't think it's going to turn into a romance), but other than that it's not really questioned that a straight man and a queer man can be such intimate friends. It's just a part of the story, and while they don't shy away from the homophobia Elton experienced they also don't insincerely inscribe a tension onto the friendship in order to safeguard Bernie's position as a straight man or whatever, and instead do just the opposite, focusing the movie on bringing out the beauty and intimacy of their friendship. It just struck me as really powerful and subtly disruptive to tell a platonic love story between two men where the lead character is famously queer and it just isn't an issue. It just flies in the face of so much stigma that still exists around queer/straight male friendships. I'm also completely obsessed with Elton and Bernie's work though so I may be biased lol. (Also, another link in the chain you mentioned is that Taron Eagerton was in *Sing* , which was produced by Elton John and directed by his husband. I believe his performance of *Your Song* in that movie was a huge reason he was brought on to *Rocketman* .) Anyway, my obsession with Elton John aside, this might be my new favorite series on UA-cam. I've never cared much for film criticism (or films in general) but I'm absolutely here for taking a long hard look into the future of queer film that doesn't settle for assimilation.
It feels good for lgbt people (like me) who just wanted to see a fun, light-hearted movie that's not centered around sex or tragedy. As almost all queer films are. So no, it's not only cishetero approved. It's also asexual, non-binary lesbian approved. (ofc there's allowed to be criticism but.. I just felt so at home in that movie, I was so thankful it existed, I wouldn't want it to be any different.)
you're not the only one who wasn't a big fan of love, simon! I was also wildly uncomfortable with a lot of it, including some of the same things you said here like his friends reaction and the public outing of blue. As someone who actually got outed in high school, this movie just reminded me of how awful that situation actually was, and how much I felt for simon and the impossible situation he was in. And then to see all those people online absolutely loving it and being happy for finally getting queer rep, I felt guilty for not liking it and like I *had* to like it or I wouldn't be a "good queer" or something.
I had this as well and this video makes me feel so validated! I thought I had to be dead silent about this movie after all of my straight cis friends pretty much yelled at me to shut up about criticising it, and it feels really nice to see this.
I've watched many many gay coming of age movies and I absolutely HATE the trope of "I'm not like those other gays" that unfortunately I feel is getting more common. I understand that it's important to explore different gay experiences and I can see the need for narratives that deal with the anxiety of discovering your lgbt identity when your experience doesn't match the image you've been given of the community. However I feel like these stories are often told in a way that implies that people who on the surface fit the "gay stereotype" are somehow harmful, embarrassing or less important. I absolutely hate the implication that being for example a very effeminate gay man is somehow easier than being "just a normal dude" but gay and that the existence of "stereotypically gay" people is a problem because all the none offensive normal gays get lumped in with "those people". These kinds of divisions in the lgbt community are already a problem in real life and I really wish they didn't promote that kind of divisiveness and exclusion in films especially for a younger audience. I really wish to see a story like this that properly explores these differences in gay experiences without ending up implying that the problem is the loud and effeminate gays instead of society that defines us only by stereotypes and refuses to accept the diversity, uniqueness and differences between lgbt experiences.
Although there are other teen gay movies, it seemed to be the first mainstream (like also to cis straight audiences) (but also maybe as you said bc it was a palatable type of gay, which is bad. But I did like that it was actually mainstream which was different). But I hated that the friends were mad at him, he was being blackmailed and had the chance of being outed! (I loved when the one PG13 ‘fuck’ was when he screamed at the guy). But the friends were not seen as wrong for being mad? It’s... scary being outed against your consent. That’s so messed up, I agree. I was so frustrated watching that. Oh! Also his friend definitely i thought was going to be bi or lesbian when she was like “Do you feel weird ever?” And also when she was so wowed by the girl in the Wonder Woman costume! I was really confused i very much thought she was gonna be wlw and then it was like Simon never even noticed she was also going through the struggle of coming out. * also I think of But I’m A Cheerleader but I don’t think that can count as a fluffy teen movie as the setting is a gay conversion camp.
That's the stupid thing because (spoiler alert for "Leah on the Offbeat") in the book she was into Abby and in the film they made it seem like that too only to have her be into Simon instead, which makes no sense. The reason why Simon thought Leah was into Nick made sense in the book because Leah was into Abby. Also, Leah already knew she was bisexual before Simon came out, while Abby only figured it out afterwards in book two.
Chloe Rose you should read the book ‘Simon vs the homo sapiens agenda’ and its sequel ‘Leah on the offbeat’, they are much better than the film and I have never related to a character more than Leah in the books
My friends and I watched Love, Simon separately and apparently we were all over it from the first line... The begining "I'm just like you except I'm in the closest" monologue. Then shows massive suburban home in mostly white neighborhood as if that was relatable. We definitely talked about who this movie was meant for or if it was just hallow representation.
Simons Privilege didn’t bother me because it actually showed that you can have everything, supportive family, freinds and yet still coming out can be incredibly difficult, yeah it’s a story about a particular type of person to appeal to a particular audience but I think it justifies its existence....unlike day tall girl where it’s just like “...shut up your fine”
@@91Vault I don't mind watching movies with wealthy characters. It's just Simon's portrayal of himself as "just an ordinary, relatable guy" kind of highlighted to me how he may not actually be relatable to many people watching the movie.
@@Sikosm Plus, that scenario does really take away the relatability for LGBT teens in scary situations. Simon's worrying so hard about coming out but the movie continuously paints this like the only person against Simon is Simon himself, and even his living situation seems to exist for this reason. Simon's life is portrayed as near perfect and we're continuously shown how 'supportive' his (abusive crappy) friends are, how much his parents are chill with it, and even his mom's big speech is about how he just needs to love himself and everything will be okay. It's really infuriating as an LGBT kid because it portrays a character whose only real issue is internalised homophobia and doesn't even stop to criticise this issue. It's pretty much all just feeding in to the movie practically screaming that this is a very straight-woman portrayal of a gay person.
I always thought that his friends were really shitty and treated him terribly, right at the moment he needed the most support, and the fact that the movie never showed this as bad made me hate the movie tbh. We deserve better.
Same here. I didn't think I'd hate it as much as I did, but the movie is a really bad memory for me and reminds me of exactly why coming out was so difficult and shit for me.
right because he didn’t try to pimp out one of them for his own benefit. It was okay for him to do that and it’s not okay for them to get mad at him for that
@@WeiYinChan Deliberately doing down Simon's problems and exaggerating Abby's, who was by all rights in a more privilege position at the time, is borderline homophobia. He didn't "pimp" out anyone. And no, it was not okay for his friends to act that way. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Summanus Pax I’m not down playing Simon’s problem, but it was ultimately his own problem and not Abby’s, she wasn’t responsible for him getting blackmailed and it was wrong of him to make her suffer the consequences. Like it’s okay to ask your friends to sacrifice something to help you out, but it’s not okay to make that decision for them without their knowledge. He betrayed her and broke the trust in their friendship first and that’s the fact. How’s she more privileged? She was a working class woman of colour and is implied to be bisexual in the book while he was a middle class white man, and has a liberal family that would accept his sexuality. If you want to play the oppressed Olympic he won’t win. And what does privilege have to do with anything in the first place? Again he was the one who put the burden of his own problems on her, privilege is pretty irrelevant here. It’s not homophobic to say you can’t sell out your friends like that to protect yourself for whatever reasons. He was putting her at risk to protect himself, he knows the blackmailer was a bad person and definitely not a good fit for his friend, there’s no saying what he would do if he have his hopes up for Abby and she tries to reject him. Yet Simon still thought it’s okay to coerce her into meeting him even when she was clearly uncomfortable, which led to her being publicly humiliated (luckily nothing worse happened), how is she supposed to not get angry after that and then knowing her friend whom she trusted to have her best interest at heart was behind that. And how is she supposed to trust him at all after y’all? Yes he was in a tough spot but he chose the wrong option and it was justified that she feel like she can’t trust him anymore and is angry about being betrayed.
when i was watching love, simon it made me angry that they abandoned him when he was outed, like, it is a huge deal for someone and they just blamed everything on him
Also, The Umbrella Academy has Elliot Page as Vanya. I know he was playing this character before come out as trans, but I think is so cool that he will keep the role.
When I was watching Love, Simon my prevailing feeling throughout the piece was that it was not made for us. I’m literally almost the exact demographic of Simon, a gay, white, middle class, high school male but that’s not who the movie was for. It was made for straight people. The fact that Simon basically victim blames the other gay kid, the fact that homophobia is depicted as just a few bad apples, the fact that he’s a very gender conforming, generally assimilationist person. I’m not saying that’s a wholly bad thing, that’s just what I got from it.
When I went in there with a guy I was dating at the time, the entire cinema was filled with straight white girls who were screaming and laughing through the movie at any gay moments. As two gays, we felt incredibly uncomfortable not only at the movie itself but also being in a situation where our love was being treated like a fetishistic overly cute thing. It was... really gross. I've watched other romances, straight ones I've adored (I'm bisexual), and never have I seen female audiences reacting to those scenes like that or shouting out gay jokes. I'm in agreement with you after that experience. The movie was made for pretty much the opposite of LGBT people, and its largest defenders seem to usually be straight white upper middle class women.
@@Ray03595 The filmmakers of this movie can't help how the audience would react. And give me actual examples as to how this movie was made for straight people?
@@kropotkinnie The filmmakers of this movie can't help how the audience would react. And give me actual examples as to how this movie was made for straight people?
@@modernworld9239 First line of the movie "Hi I'm Simon and I'm just like you!" (Upper middle class white dude with a perfect family). I mean, the movie is telling you right there the type of audience they are expecting. The straight friends are never in the wrong, everything is Simon's fault. Simon is depicted as the most digestible gay person ever, while the other gay person is an outcast and looked down upon by Simon. That's no coincidence. And it's not to say there aren't gays like him, but it's typical that this type of character would be the first attempt. But listen, there's a lot of stuff I like about the film too, and I overall enjoyed it. It did show how hard coming out can be and how personal it can be. It showed parents good reactions to finding out and good support from them. I just think it was very obvious they had the straight audience in mind for much of the movie. Not a horrific sin, but still apparent.
There's an interesting trend this decade wherein actors who PLAY queer characters later "come out"/are outed as queer themselves: the filming experience making them more comfortable with disclosing their queerness with the public; their role giving them the opportunity to explore beyond cis & heteronormativity; or due to increased attention on an actor whose queerness was an "open secret" WITHIN The Industry but not to the world at large. I enjoyed the BOOK that "Love, Simon" was based on but merely hearing the rename was enough to turn me off the film adaptation. ITS BOOK TITLE IS AWESOME, OKAY? In hindsight? I was completely correct in assuming that the dulled down title was indicative of the story DEFINITELY getting "straightwashed" in its adaptation. re: queer fiction... She-Ra will devastate you in the most EPIC of ways. the show is not romance-driven but it IS very, very queer. Though there ARE two established queer couples, the show's "queerness" is felt more through the hugely varied gender expression of its characters. The queerness of She-Ra's creators is evident in how easily this diversity is FELT instead of merely seen or heard.
@@jazbidgood4341 in my opinion its sad that they 1) didn't use a human but a lizard, not making enbies more normal but more associated with "others" and "not human" 2) they're a shapeshifter, a well known symbol for deception. Enforcing the "Trans people try to decieve others"
Re: tragic endings While tragic stories often need to be told, we need to be conscious of how much trauma we vicariously take in while watching people who representation. It takes a toll. We also shouldn't justify it based on the idea that LGBTQ tragedy will advance our causes with straight people. They will cry, applaud the straight actor, and refuse to make any accommodation that inconveniences them.
This is essentially why reactions to CMBYN pissed me off. Straights got a good cry, fangirled over Chalamet and called it a day. Also, this weird popular thing among teen/young adult females where they like the fetishize and create loyal followings around gay male couples. The level of obsession exceeds even straight males.
I’ve not seen the film yet, but I very recently read the book, and seeing those clips of the film was incredibly frustrating. Simons first meeting with Blue at the carnival is very private and sweet, and when Blue says he might not be ready to be completely out yet Simon is very understanding. And then they later show more scenes of them in a relationship. Though I have to say that the baseless coming out fears I liked because it took me years to come out to the family that has always said ‘we don’t care who you date as long as you’re happy’.
“Love Simon, I’m just like you. I have a car, Live in a rich neighborhood, 2 parents, am a white cis man” they make him out to be so relatable but he’s not that relatable most teens don’t have a car at 16 I can barbely relate to him as a person
I really loved that him coming out wasn't a big deal to others but himself. That's how I felt. I knew my parents would accept me, I knew my friends would accept me, but I was still horrified. When I came out it didn't really matter and it felt like I got something off my chest that I had been hiding for no reason. I find it very refreshing that his fear of coming out was from within and not because of fear from the outside cause that's how I felt. I was disappointed that Simon himself was very hostile to feminine gayness and it was also weird that his friends blamed him for what happened. I still love the movie cause it's one of the few set in this time and I feel like the writing and the friendships are real and well made. I feel like the thing with Blue could be interpreted as him standing by Simon. They connected over their journey and fell in love and then Simon was outed. Blue wanted to be there for him and also wanted to come out (he was scared but he wanted to) and saw this as the perfect opportunity, so they wouldn't have to do it alone but could do it together.
I mean as someone very involved in disability rights the element of “cripping up” has a similar if not slightly worse issue of disabled leads basically never being played by disabled actors and some I’ve met even get the vibe the academy is saying how brave to demean yourself to the level of an inferior. How many films are we going to have where they’ll pay more on effects and prosthetics than they would on a genuinely disabled actor. And if people come out with the star power argument plenty of film get buy on a star studded supporting cast. For more coverage on this sort of topic theirs many good UA-cam videos covering films like wonder and especially Me Before You which the book version is so poorly handled the spinal injury he’s diagnosed with doesn’t even exist.
I’d love for you to talk about “they both die in the end”. It was an amazing book with realistic lgbt characters. I read it within a day I loved it so much
I didn't like 'Love, Simon' as well. I have so many problems with that story. I think my favourite queer stories are all from Japan. There is a Japanese miniseries called 'My Brother's Husband', where the protagonist is visited by his gay brother's husband after the brother's death. The story has no romance, and it doesn't have violent homophobia. The homophobia is so subtle that it is actually much scarier and painful. It's mostly about understanding family. Also, for people who like reading manga, there is a manga called 'Shimanami Tasogare' or 'Our Dreams at Dusk', which was written by an asexual non binary author. That is simply the best LGBT+ story I have ever read. It is generally quite simple and lighthearted. The protagonist, a gay boy, ends up meeting various people like a lesbian couple, trans people and more. They all become friends and do volunteer work. It's the only story I have read that doesn't force characters to come out; and it also has characters who question their gender and sexuality, but are not required to come to a conclusion in a certain amount of time (because, you know, it can take years to fully understand these things). The amount of effort the author put into the story makes every page enjoyable, and every chapter overflow with emotions.
TDLR: The character Ethan is unneeded and feels disrespectful. One thing that kinda irked me was the character Ethan. He wasn’t in the book at all, And it seemed disrespectful to throw in a stereotypical gay character. I have nothing against a gay character who acts more stereotypical but it kinda felt as Ethan was the “model gay.” Pushing the narrative that “coming out isn’t a big deal.” And you’re supposed to do what he did. Just come out and don’t be upset if you get shit for it because it’s not a big deal. I could be overreacting though, but it was just a bit annoying to see.
Love Simon: **exists** Crazy straight girls who want a gay BFF: EEEEE **straight girl squeals intensify** OMG it's so CUTE UwU OwO lesbians: ? -_- WE NEED MORE LESBIAN MOVIES
exactly, i saw a bunch of straight girls saying “ OmG He’S SoOoOOo hOTT” about the dude who plays Simon and i’m like girl chill out this is a gay movie.
Many of the heterosexual gaze elements you mentioned for Love, Simon were not in the book, at least to my memory. I know for sure the carnival scene was incredibly private, no spectators, hardly even any strangers around. This has made me very glad I never saw the film despite loving the book, though the book does have issues, probably mostly in that it’s a very white, middle class, suburban perspective (which, to be fair, is my perspective so I felt pretty seen). I remember thinking the trailers seemed very oriented towards straight people, but it was mostly the making Leah skinny that caused me avoid it.
This is just a story I wanted to share: Once we were in the locker rooms changibg for P.E. and one girl said to another girl, which was standing beside me, something like: "Hey, do you remember that we wanted to watch this film 'Love,Simom'? " And the adressed girl said "Mmh, yeah. What about it?"-"Found out it was about a gay guy and his love interest or something." And as she said that she kind of cringed/grimaced and laughed at this, in more of a bad way. Like "This movie is about a gay and that is kind of funny and also a bit annoying." (You understand me?) It hurt be in an emotional way. It is not like I praise 'Love, Simon' for its representation, since I haven't seen it or read it but only read a bit of critism on it, but just this dismissive mention of it. I identify as queer and it just hurt. [The same girl also said she cannot imagine herself kissing a girl ever, and she made promises with two other girl that if she was 50/60 (it depends on which girl she promised it with) and single and one of the other girls too they could have an relationship.] This also bugs me. But another thing: Some male classmates also make gay jokes and I feel bad for not stopping them because if I did they would just wave me off and say that it's just a joke (None of them outed themselves, nor those it seem like that, except maybe one of them, who does not seem too happy with these jokes being made and also never says some.) I am a queer feminist, I feel like a hypocritical pathetic bystander. And that this one girl mentioned before sometimes says things like "then I am a Lesbian with Alexis*" or "They probably think we are gay since we are dancing 'Walzer' together" (she and I danced the 'Walzer' in the classroom) but things like dancing with a person of the same sex does not make you gay and it is hurtful to the LGBTQ+ and queer community to say things like 'I am a lesbian because I cuddle with my best friend.' Sonetimes I cannot believe that we were actually pretty close friends. *Alexis: made-up name Sorry about this rant, but I just wanted to share it.
What a wonderful and on point analysis!!! You said so many important things and gave me a lot to think about. I would recommend Skam, a norwegian webshow, to everyone. Although it also has its problems and can be discussed, it shows the coming out experience for teens very realistically and breaks with a lot of stereotypes. There are also currently 7 other remakes of it from other countries!
What got me the most upset at the film, is how it tried to make us sympathize with his friends after they got upset at him for being afraid to be outed. Simon messed up and apologized, but his friends never made the effort to make it up to him for abandoning him at his worst.
Kudos to the hard work that went into this, I’m so pleased to be able to absorb your knowledge and hear how you word certain concepts. Ex: Being in the closet as a character flaw/growth arc is such transparently straight nonsense. Like others have said, coming out is not a single event, and doing so doesn’t mean you’re better or more self-actualized than those not out to whatever nebulous amount of people straight writers imagine.
Rowan, your channel is so important and I'm thankful that UA-cam recommended it to me. It's been so eye opening to hear your media critiques, which have given me perspective on elements of the LGBTQ+ life and cinema that have never occurred to me before.
I agree with a lot of the problems you pointed out in the movie. I feel frustrated, though, that some people criticize that Simon acts more gender-conforming. That's more relatable to my experience and I haven't seen it very much in media. Most of the stories with gay characters that I've seen portray them as feminine and/or have a bunch of fem stereotypes thrown onto them which I can't relate to, so I feel a bit alienated by it. It implies that sexuality determines personality. I'm not saying it's better or worse to conform with gender but just that I wish the representation was more varied.
If anyone is looking for a lgbtq+ film: „And Then We Danced“ is a film about a Georgian dancer who falls in love with another man. Family, friends and love are at the centre of the movie. It‘s a beautiful film and I highly recommend watching it. 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
See, but here's where I disagree, this is not about Simon accepting his homosexuality or accepting his place in a repressed society (which it's not), it's about him accepting himself entirely and what that means to him. The gay musical moment is a fantastic visual exploration into the different identities that LGBTQ struggle with inside their own community. Simon is not a femme, not even metrosexual and that was kind of the point. He's irrationally assuming that by coming out, everyone will regard him differently and regard him as the other, and that's where setting it in 2018 makes it work. The only openly gay character is being bullied but only by two jerks, while the rest of the school doesn't care that he is gay. And to me, that is progress. Simon comes out and no one is bothered because in this day and age we don't need to be. Ultimately, his friends are upset at Simon because he lied and manipulated all of them instead of just being honest. Yes, Leah is disappointed but that's life. Sometimes the person you like doesn't like you the same way but beyond that, there's no indication that anyone is bothered by his homosexuality. Hell, there's even a deleted scene where Nick takes Simon to a gay bar to prove how supportive he is. And far as tropes go, that's storytelling. Film as a medium is about glamor and heightened reality while exploring universal themes. So while the Ferris wheel scene may not be " realistic " it's still a strong emotional climax.
Exactly. I'm "straight-passing" and it's made accepting myself harder because the people around me don't expect it and it makes me even more unsure if they'll be cool with it.
Tropes can be harmful which is why they get scrutinised.. saying something is just a movie doesn't negate how it impacts our culture. Tradition is not an end in of itself
Thank you so much for making this video. It's so important to talk about the "little things" when talking about LGBTQ+ media. It's always the "little things" that mean the most. Gay media speaks for the community, in a sense, and shapes the way that people look at us. The end of Love, Simon left me feeling icky and anxious the first time I watched it... I couldn't really figure out why, but you put my feelings into words. Thank you! Keep doing what you're doing :)
i had really weird feelings in my gut when i walked away from Love Simon and i could never figure out what it was but honestly you just summed it up perfectly. It’s the lack of resolution, it’s the feeling of Simon being punished for not taking the L and all his friends being treated like they’re perfectly in the right. It was always buzzing in the back of my head whenever the topic came up. It’s great to have the words to articulate my feelings now. Thanks!
NOTE: this is a bit of a rant (not against Rowan, you're doing great!) On the note of intersectionality in LGBTQ2+ cinema, which you refer to quite a few times in this video, one film has always stood out to me (in not a great way). The Miseducation of Cameron Post. In the film, the main protagonist befriends two teens also attending conversion therapy. One of these teens is Adam Red Eagle, well established as two-spirit and with a strong identity as a Native American character. Adam's long hair is mentioned a couple times throughout the film, positioned as a problem for the conversion therapy counsellors and threatened to be buzzed off if not tied back from Adam's face. Not long after this threat is made Adam is shown in a scene with a buzzed scalp, their long hair gone. Watching this film in a UK cinema, it was clear from the lack of response from the audience that the gravity of what had occurred was lost. This was only made worse when the film made no mention of the symbolic nature of cutting Adam's hair, the very blatant references to colonialism, assimilation, physical and mental abuse, and the overall Residential School system that still existed only a couple of decades ago. The film made an effort by casting a Native American actor for a Native American role (a low bar), depicting a two-spirit character (not often seen on film or television) and even making reference to the forms of abuse used to target racial and ethnic minorities (in this instance, the head-shaving). The film fell very, very flat, however, by limiting itself to just a reference. It depicts a culturally-specific (though similar forms can be seen affecting other marginalised groups) trauma on screen and did nothing to speak to the impact of such trauma. Instead, it felt like the film gave itself a pat on the back for being "inclusive" and moved on. If LGBTQ2+ cinema is to keep progressing, it needs to be increasingly aware of what it is electing to depict and questioning whether it is fully prepared and qualified to create such a depiction. LGBTQ2+ cinema needs more diversity (this is especially true for television, but that would require a whole other rant to address). It's a very simple idea really, I am a white gay woman and even I felt for much of my teen years and even now sometimes as I near my mid-twenties that the depictions in cinema don't feel relatable or as if they could represent myself or my experiences in some way. That feeling can only be stronger for those whose identities intersect to face substantial everyday marginalisation and even violence. Imagine that you are such a marginalised member of the LGBTQ2+ community and you finally feel like a character in a film may represent you, your experience, your culture or any other aspect of who you are as a person. When you watch the film, however, you are confronted with additional trauma, without warning, apology or any sense of reflexivity by the film's producers. That is what The Miseducation of Cameron Post presented to its audiences.
I think The Miseducation of Cameron Post fell short completely as a film. It ripped out the heart of the book and just showed a few scenes of girls kissing (no back story as to who those girls were to Cameron, how they helped her and shaped her) it completely disregarded the whole scene and blow up of why she got outed in the first place, ruined all of her friendships (her best male friend was just shown as a boyfriend that was shocked to find her with a girl) The relationship with her Gran, and the impact of her parents dying was left out, the scene in the conversion camp that in the book was so powerful just fell flat (and it made Cameron find the guy after his self harm, which wasn't the case), the whoooole ending was cut out and replace with a lack luster 'sitting in a car, staring at nothing' - Just EUGH. I could go on but I'm not even writing sentences at this point. I watched the film only a few days after reading the book so the one dimension, heartless, blah of a film stood out even more
@@Catsandcamera Could not agree more about the sum of the film! The book was genuinely (and personally) a joy to read, with considerable nuance and actual insight into who each character was and their role in Cameron's life. I was surprised when the film stripped it down as much as they did, taking the very bare skeleton of each character (thus making them pretty one-note) and the very rough idea of what the book was about, transforming it into almost a brand new story. I thought the casting was decent, as was the acting (from my limited understanding of that kind of thing hahah), so it was a shame to see it all kind of go to waste. It was strange too the liberties the film took in terms of reorganizing things in the plot (like discovering the boy after his self-harm, as you mentioned), completely adding in the head shaving when it's never mentioned in the book (as far as I can recall) and the complete omission of half the book that contextualizes Cameron's experiences and relationships. I finished the book a couple months before seeing the film, so I had a while to let my expectations grow unreasonably and, boy, was I disappointed. Finishing only a couple days before, though, I can imagine how fresh your imagining of the book would be and then to have it let down like it was, must've been quite the trip!
@@ayana9490 Two-spirited! I think the LGBTQ2+ acronym is close to the government and public health standard in Canada now (or at least any acronym that includes "2"), but it would be great to see it continue to expand in acknowledgement of North American Indigenous populations.
i really wish Love, Simon had followed the book’s plot more closely. Simon and Blue’s relationships is developed a lot more both through the emails and after they discover each other’s identities, and Simon never even pulls the grand gesture move, Blue joins him on a ride when nobody else is really paying attention because he wants to come out to Simon. plus, Simon’s friends don’t abandon him. Leah falls out with him because she felt he was excluding her by only hanging out with Abby and Nick and lying about it, but Abby and Nick understand that he was being blackmailed and stand by his side. they’re much better friends in the book.
What you said towards the end really made me feel grateful for my film club at school. My one friend has started a film club in school, and while there are quite a few white cishet boys in it, there is a really diverse range of people in it. Queer/questioning people, poc, and disabled people actually outnumber the straight white males. The club leader wants the short film we make to have everyone involved in some way. Despite being a rich white kid, he wants to use that to help others do what they normally couldn’t. From having the money for software and cameras for other people to use to hosting online discussions where everyone contributes, I’m really excited for what this club has to offer!
i couldve never put that into words. What you said about the ending is literally something ive been trying to wrap my head around since seeing the movie in theaters. (forcing blue to come out). Blue never wanted to come out, Simon had been forcing the "out and proud" agenda on him for a good portion of the film since he himself was forced out.
the first time i watched love simon i had a very strong emotional reaction to it, as it mirrored aspects of my life i was going through at the time, namely plucking up the courage to come out to my mum. however, when i tried to rewatch it a few months ago, i couldn't even get the whole way through the movie. it was so clearly made with a heterosexual audience in mind, exemplified by the "i'm just like you, but gay" voiceover at the top of the film. it felt weird to be watching a film ABOUT someone like me, but not FOR someone like me. i also could not stand the whole blackmailing plot, and i feel like there weren't enough consequences, or even thought, given to martin, who outed simon. all of your other criticisms i completely agree with, like simon's femme shaming and internalised homophobia not being addressed whatsoever
This is one of my favorites videos of yours. Thank you for expressing your concerns about Love, Simon so eloquently. I didn’t want to see it but couldn’t put my finger on why I was put off by it. This whole video is so great and I am going to google more about your academic work since you mentioned a dissertation! 👊
Although I admired the movie "Love Simon" overall, I thought it had some flaws. 1) They always emphasized how "normal" Simon and his life was, which I thought was a bit over-emphasized. Also, him having a perfect family, perfect friends, being a perfectly looking actor (just my opinion) makes it not as believable. Because when I came out, my life was anything but normal and I was anything but normal-looking as well. 2) Spoiler: Simon throughs his friends under the bus to keep his secret at first. So his friends were really mad, but within minutes they were all already at peace with each other again. That's kind of weird to me. 3) Simon falls in Love with "the only other gay kid at school" and they fall in love without even knowing how the other person looks like. Like... not even a picture. As romantic as it sounds, it's just not realistic. 4) The people surrounding Simon all reacted to his coming out in very (for storyline reasons) idolized ways. It's nice to think that the entire family and group of friends react so positively. But when I came out that was just not the case. Okay, that was like 11 years ago and I like to think that times have changed. But if the movie inspires young LGBT kids to come out, I want them to be careful and realize that this is a fabricated story, a movie, not real life. A movie where scripted characters act/react in idolized ways to fit a narrative. And you still can not guarantee, that everyone in your surroundings will/would react positively. So please be careful with that. 5) In the end, I still want to say that I liked the movie and felt very moved by it. I liked how they added humor to such a (still) touchy subject. Also, I loved that the character Simon was not necessarily struggling with the fact that he's gay. He accepted that. He was rather struggling with how to come out or when. That's already a big step in the right direction. Let's see, what future movies will bring us :)
THANK YOU so much for this video. I've had a hard time articulating my gripes with this movie but in the first 12 minutes of this video you've spelled it out so clearly and respectfully.
I hated Love, Simon. Simon was a cis gender privileged gay teen. The only problem he has is internalized homophobia and his ego. I found the "I Wanna With Somebody" sequence which ends with him saying "I'm not That gay" offensive, it felt like a slap in the face to gender nonconforming and femme guys. Simon's parents are almost unrealistically perfect in every way imaginable and of course Simon does not find the femme gay character attractive and eventually ends up with another cis gender gay character. Simon is the stereotypical "good gay" character. He conforms to gender norms, is financially well off and doesn't threaten the heterosexist status quo (and he's white).
Thank you for making this video! I read the book and saw the movie and I love parts of Love, Simon but I agree with you- we need to be able to criticize problematic aspects and discuss works openly, even and especially ones that involve our own community. I'm a strong believer in being able to criticize what we love and hold ourselves accountable in order to create the kind of media we want to see. You did a great job with this series, well done
I remember seeing Love, Simon in theatre with my school LGBT+ Club. When we left and got lunch, everyone was talking about how amazing the movie was and I was just like...eh... Not trying to ruin anyone else's enjoyment of the movie, but I personally didn't like it that much. A white gay teen with internalized homophobia is living a normal life just like everyone else, starts talking online with another gay kid at school, tries to find the identity of their crush and then gets fucking blackmailed by a loser who threatens to publicly humiliate him and ruin his entire social life at school if he didn't help him get together with a girl he's never met or only met a few times (I can't remember) and has never shown any interest in him whatsoever. For some reason, he thought it would be a good idea to hijack a microphone and ask the girl out in front of the whole fucking stadium, and ends up humiliating himself and the girl in the process. To take the attention off him, he ends up leaking the emails anyway when his flimsy-ass plan backfires. The main character who just had their worst nightmare come true gets ostracized and abandoned by their friends even though he was being FUCKING BLACKMAILED. And the ending feels like it was literally thrown together in 5 minutes, the one guy he saw making out with a girl at the party that they purposefully led us to believe was just as ambiguous as anyone else, turns out to be the mystery person all along. Who also happens to be black and jewish as well as gay (how convenient and progressive!). And then everything goes back to normal and they live happily ever after, nobody's actions face any consequences, and all shitty behaviour is forgiven. But you know, that's just my 2 cents.
I think this was a really thoughtful critique, and though I enjoyed the book (didn't see the movie), you really addressed some of the things that made me uncomfortable about this story, and helped me articulate why some plot points left me feeling a bit bitter. Just subscribed to your channel, keep up the great work!
I didn't really like Love Simon when I watched it. I didn't know why, but I just couldn't feel anything for most of the characters. I think I understand why now. Everything just felt kind of unnatural, and I think it's unfair that his friends were /that/ angry at him. I wish that the story had been handled better.
Gay characters and situations can be flawed too, a character or situation doesn't have to be a perfect representation of how someone should come out or should act to be a good character or good scene or part of a good film
Yes, but there's a difference between 'imperfect' and 'tone deaf', and many LGBT+ stories are the latter. A bit more time spent with the writer/director placing themselves in the protagonist's shoes can fix this. The audience's experience can only improve when the right foundations are laid out, and the emotional build up is paced and appropriately acted upon. If the writing isn't lazy, then this shouldn't be a problem.
I totally agree, but I think the issue is that the flaw is presented in a way that the audience understands it as such. Which is what the best movies are able to do imo.
It's fine that he is flawed, but his flaws arent really addressed. He gets blackmailed, which is not his fault. Okay, he lies to his friends, that sucked. Then he gets outed & bullied and his friends do nothing. Then he gets made fun of, owns his sexuality after being bullied and everybody likes him again. I know this film was about coming out, but Simon as a character doesn't really seem to learn any lessons. Is the lesson that coming out isn't that bad and you shouldn't lie to people? Because the movie seems to side with Simon's friends. I wish this film focused more on the relationship between him and the other gay character at school because then there actually could've been a lesson about Simon's own homophobia and how nobody is lesser for just being themselves. The film doesn't really go there when it probably should have.
When you talked about straight actors commenting on their gay roles I remembered a thing Daniel Radcliffe said that positively surprised me. The question was something along the lines of "How did you feel playing a gay character?" and his answer was basically "Gay actors are never asked that when playing straight roles, so I'm not even gonna comment on that" and I thought it was a nice move
He was amazing in that movie too I loved it so much
What movie was that?
@@willv42 Kill Your Darlings, he played young Allen Ginsberg
Daniel Radcliffe is the best love him
wow cant believe he wrote harry potter and is a talented actor, hes so amazing!!
Whenever I see straight actors getting praised for bravely playing a gay character, all I can think of is that running gag from Parks and Rec where men keeping winning the woman of the year award
FearlessAstridHofferson Not what I said, but it’s definitely an interesting topic, so sure, we can discuss. Keep in mind I’ve never seen either of those movies, so I’m coming in blind here on that regard. Coming from the perspective of an actor, I had a teacher once tell me something along of the lines of how acting is living truthfully in an imaginary circumstance. A good actor can make you believe that. Straight actors can sympathize and speculate the difficulties that come along with being queer, but queer actors will always have an edge that helps them be more authentic. That, and it’s nice to see representation not just in the characters but also in the cast. But, do I think straight actors should be banned from playing queer characters? No, that’d be a little much, and also near impossible to enforce, since I’d hate for an actor to feel like they have to come out or they won’t get to play characters that are important to them in that regard. Idk, I’d have to take some more philosophy courses before I really delved into a solution. I just thought the parks and rec thing was funny.
straight actors can be gay charters
@@dusktomidnight7207 disagree
Facts! Hollywood goes far beyond just being white. They're white, cisgender, and heterosexual. It's extremely hard for people who aren't either of those things to find work. It feels kinda like salt on a wound when they get straight people to play roles for Gay actors who actually could do better
@FearlessAstridHofferson It's not like we're saying he didn't do good in that role, we're saying it perpetuates a narrative where Hollywood only hires people who are straight
It made me FURIOUS when Simon's friends just...resumed being friends after treating him like sh*t at his most vulnerable moment in the story with a garbage "why didn't you tell us" justification. Pretty sure there was no apology either. Incensed.
me too! it made me so uncomfortable and angry o had to look away for a while
I know right! It was so jarring and I couldnt let it go for the rest of the movie. I think they even watch him get bullied for being gay and they do absolutely nothing. Which implys that they believe he deserves that for " lying" to them. They are not good friends and Simon should disengage from the ASAP. This was a movie/book where the "betrayed friends/lover" romance genre staple did not need to happen.
That's the only part that really made me made in the movie too! In the book, they handle everything completely differently. Simon has a New Years Party and everybody makes up there. Also, I think it's worth mentioning that despite the fact that Simon was blackmailed, he did still try to manipulate his friends which isn't that great either. Both sides should have had an apology moment. I also think the book handles the whole romantic gesture better. Simon still meets Blue at the fair, but it's closing time and they do it alone. There's no public grand gesture. I think one thing I really liked about Love Simon was Simon's character. Like him, I'm not the most "obviously" gay kid out there. So seeing somebody who wears hoodies and isn't around all this LGBTQ culture was really relatable for me. I ended up watching Love Simon at least 3 times.
The whole plot line gets hand waved too quickly. The blackmailer was gross and the fact that wealthy white Simon allowed a working class woman of color to be harassed and publicly humiliated by him is a bigger deal than the film admits.
Yeah. When I re-watched the movie, I saw that conflict again, and I always thought that part really bugged me. Like, I get it. He lied to y'all. Just to hook one of y'all up with a random weirdo. Pretty D*cky move. But are y'all THAT mad about it? Y'all feel betrayed? Dude was being blackmailed! The weirdo was going to out him! That's MUCH worse than what he put y'all through. I know y'all just kids, but DAMN...
I feel like what happened with Love, Simon was that even though it was a gay story, it was marketed towards straight people? Not sure if that makes sense? Like obviously LGBT+ people were going to watch it, but the story was changed so that straight people could tolerate it .
Yes, this! I completely agree!
Not just straight people, but largely women.
fat truth, it’s common to see movies that feature minorities represented to be toned down for the general audience, as to not exclude the mainstream and lose ratings and a large part of the viewers. Big companies care much more about profit, and they don’t want to polarise their audience.
"So that straight people can tolerate it." Why is this one line so painfully real?
The book reads as a gay fan fiction that isn't fan fiction of anything. It's clearly written by a woman who enjoys gay people as a trend over being a story, I've read gay teen fiction that is written by actual gay people. They actually discuss things that really go through gay teens minds and into young adulthood. The sequel is even worse because it is clear that the author is really trying to fix certain things but through the eyes of a bisexual character who is even more fan fiction like.
The book of Love, Simon, though probably still has problems, is a lot better. His friends aren't horrible in it and if I remember correctly the scene on the Ferris wheel was more private and didn't have tonnes of people watching (I don't think Simon's friends were even watching)
Yeah and we have more scenes of them as a couple
The scene is alone in a tilt-a-whirl and very cute and also relates to earlier in the book when bram talks about having motion sickness
This video made me look it up bc I was thinking “I really don’t remember it like that” and none of his friends were there and very few strangers were there as the carnival was closing. I can’t remember if the internalized homophobia stuff was in the book or not tho
@@AverySometimesReads I don't think ethan was even a character in the book? I don't remember that name at all
@@miche8868 He was not, in the book, Simon seemed more genuine, and scared, making him much more relatable. For example, when his dad says something slightly ignorant in regards to the lgbtq+ community, Simon is described to tense up. I think that scene should have been included in the film (I'm pretty sure it wasn't) since many lgbt youth become more scared to come out from seemingly insignificant comments.
I think straight actors can play gay characters and the other way around too, my only concern is not giving the same praise to gay actors or even the same recognition straight actors get
While that is true, it does make you wonder if the flaws of the movie would have been so pronounced if there had been more input from LGBT main actors on the matter.
one is a minority that’s oppressed and the other is the majority and is the oppressor isn't the same thing
I always wondered this until a friend of mine who worked in the industry told me that people never see gay actors(with few exceptions, think like Neil Patrick Harris or Queen Latifah)to be believable to act straight compared to straights because all they can think about is the person really being gay in real life. Which we both thought was bullshit when it’s known that gay people are the best straight actors when in the closet so really homophobia could play a part in this in my opinion.
@@marcusdilworth6661 i honestly know very few gay actors with large roles, whoa. one of my favorite actors, brandon flynn, played an incredible, stereotypical, straight™ guy in 'thirteen reasons why' (i know the show's awful, haha). it actually makes a lot of sense that people are too close-minded to see someone who they know is gay as a straight character. that explains so much..
Brandon Flynn joined the chat
Oh my god, YES. I read the book before watching the movie, I love the ending of the book and HATE the ending of the movie. it just felt so unrelateable to me! as a gay teen I NEVER would've kissed a girl in public like that, certainly not at the time when I wasn't out to anyone yet. people don't get just how scary coming out is. it's a long emotional process, not something you're done with in 10 mins.
Yes I agree. Despite of the end you could always see how scared Simon was of coming out, so the end didn't really made any sense. Why would he suddenly not be scared anymore? And why would blue come if he was even more careful than Simon?
Yes
Also it just made me cringe
You would never, I would never, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. People are too different for any character to be relatable to everyone at all times, and one of those differences among people I how we respond to fear.
@@Asdfgh-xr6qw That's certainly true; the way the characters were portrayed in the film might be relatable to some people. But I feel like it doesn't actually make sense for the characters. Based on the clues the film gives us about the characters, we know that Simon was very afraid to come out, and wasn't allowed to come out to his friends and his school of his own accord. And although his willingness to kiss Blue in front of his friends and a lot of his classmates could be explained by him having expressed a desire to be out and to have an open relationship with Blue, it doesn't explain Blue's sudden willingness to be open about his sexuality to most of the school. In the book (spoilers for the book) this was done differently with how Simon was riding the tilt-a-whirl by himself and Blue appearing to tell him that he was Blue. There wasn't anyone around that knew them and they didn't kiss until they were completely alone in Simon's car. I think this makes a lot more sense based on what we already know about the characters, especially Blue, and it doesn't present the narrative that Simon essentially forces Blue to come out to everyone by making a grand gesture in front of a lot of people
While Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda certainly has a lot of problems, I absolutely adored the Ferris wheel scene. It was so beautiful and romantic and amazing and, most importantly, it was intimate. In the book, Simon has pretty much given up on the fact that Blue is coming. He buys the ticket to the Ferris wheel (actually in the book it's a Tilt-A-Whirl but that's besides the point) and waits for Blue. By the end, there's nobody there. It's just him. And right before Simon is about to leave, Blue shows up. It's entirely his own choice and it isn't impacted by anyone else and _that_ is what makes the scene so good. The fact that they are completely devoid of an audience makes the rest of the world fall away and the two boys are able to share this incredibly intimate and romantic scene alone together.
*but nope hollywood wanta da big romance scene yabadabadabawoooooooo*
My biggest gripe was they essentially stripped any sexuality from Simon. I can guarantee the same thing will happen in maybe its us.
i really disliked the change in the end to giving simon amd bram an audience as well. it felt tacky and unrealistic
i hated the ferris wheel scene in love simon,, it was so stupid and straight up outed bram
agreed💀
Yeah, they wanted to give the gays the same experience as straights have in films so far but it's not something good in straight films either and even this film shows it with Martin imposing it to Abby. Compromising, even if Blue's identity was unrevealed since he said he wasn't ready.
Can we just have a scifi lesbian movie already?
Sierra Farnum I don’t know if this is what you are looking for but there are some series with wlw content you might like. Legends of Tomorrow is a series about time traveling superheros. Sara lance, one of the main protagonists, is a bisexual characters, who has many flings with female historical figures throughout and eventually gets a stable girlfriend in season 3. Maybe you are interested. And Wynonna earp is a show about demon hunting. The main character herself is not queer but it is fair to say that the queer characters and romances are treated very well in the show.
@@amovienerdwhowatchestoomuc2725 Cool, thanks! I'll check those out
This is How You Lose the Time War.
It's a book, not a movie, but worth checking out
All Students thanks i will check that out
@@MrNicktkh Thanks!
I hear what you're saying. And I think your criticisms are valid. I liked the narrative of Love, Simon specifically because it pointed out that even if you're from a "progressive" family and there is no threat of violence, coming out can still be terrifying. My parents always told me it would be okay if I was gay, but when I finally realized I wasn't straight I was still scared, and stayed in the closet for a few years. There are always underlying homophobic/heteronormative tones to everyday life, even if you're not from a conservative area. I just found Love, Simon really relatable to my own experience with coming out. And I was so happy to watch something gay that didn't also have to be tragic. I get so tired of tragedies. That being said, Love, Simon definitely has problems. And I think anyone should be allowed to criticize it. Wonderful video as usual
i agree wholeheartedly with you! simon's thought process, background and feelings felt incredibly relatable to me personally, but it's not without flaws
same goes for me. I asked my parents when i was 13 what they would say/do if i would realize that i was a lesbian. They said it would be fine
5 years later i realized that i was bi and didn't had the courage to out myself for two years
@@sporesims9303 this is exactly the same as my experience! except I realised 7 years later and it took me 1 year to come out. I knew my parents wouldn't kick me out or anything, but at the same time they wouldn't exactly be thrilled, and I'm still trying to get rid of a lot of ingrained ideas now, it takes a lot of reassessing and positivity
but I'm glad you managed to learn more about yourself and share that with your parents!
same here! my family's fine eith lgbtq+ stuff but i'm still terrified to come out for no real reason. i'm out to mum but not on my own accord and not my dad or siblings, nor extended family (a few exceptions). even my religious family is fine with it. it's just scary and i think love, simon portrayed that experience and feeling beautifully. i do still love and respect rowan's opinion and understand where she's coming from.
@@-somatryoshka same here. I can totally understand it
but i also think that Love Simon (no matter what problem it has) was really appealing to young LGBTQ fans because it was a comedy and noone died
i wish you a lot of luck and strength with your coming out
The fact that there are not one but TWO lesbian Emily Dickenson comedies and a film about a lesbian paleontologist...I have never felt so delightfully pandered to in my life.
Is this how The Heteros™️ feel 24/7?
Prolly not, an abundance of it makes you desensitized to it. Like whenever I see two men fall in love on a show or movie it literally makes my heart explode with happiness, although I imagine if I got to see that in like every single piece of media the reaction would lessen.
@@Hellooo134 yeah that definitely depends on a person's experience. for me, living in an overtly homophobic country where queer films aren't even made nor shown in regular cinemas, seeing a show like the L word was revolutionary and comforting (even though I can never relate to rich LA lesbians lmao. and the show wasn't even that good when I revisit it now). So i'd rather have 'an abundance' of it than none and have to seek it out in secret like I did in my teens.
Also, not every queer representation is the same - there's endless variations of the queer experience in real life so there's endless ways of portraying that in art. If we can have so many mediocre hetero stories why not queer ones as well? Queer stories are treated as the outlier and someday hopefully that won't be the case and it will be just...another story, and that's ok.
So I go to a very religious prep school (lmao I'm closeted) and for English class we had to do some poetry analysis for homework. I analyzed an Emily Dickinson poem and I wrote about how it could be expressing her love for Susan Gilbert and the teacher had a dumbfounded look on her face when she read it. She only told me that "I didn't know you knew so much about Emily Dickinson's life". I told her that it's about time Yeshivas acknowledge that gays exist. (A Yeshiva is a Jewish private school). She told me she agreed. To be honest, I expected her to be homophobic, which is a prejudice I need to rid myself of. I know many religious Jews who aren't homophobic. It's getting a lot better.
@@vildekm feel ya. My country has very homophobic goverment (but society is better esp in big cities) so I literally squeek with joy, when I saw ad for Samsung (I think) where two women where having ultrasound of their baby AND IT WAS ON NATIONAL TV! My grandma, who was sittting next to me didn't even noticed that, so... :P Yeah, I would rather have an abundance of them.
they portrayed emily dickinson as bi or pansexual in dickinson tho
When I watched Love, Simon (not having read the book) I fully expected Blue not to show up at the Ferris Wheel. I thought that Simon would sit there alone for a while and then join his friends, only for Blue to approach him later, tell him he's not ready to come out, but that he likes him, too... I think that may have worked bettter...
it definitely would have. your mind!
👏
That’s a bit like how the book was like. Blue came to Simon on his own, near the end where few people were still there. He came when he was ready, a plot line was that Blue was there when he was ready.
It’s good to take a closer look at how media can shape opinions on lgbt+ people, we should not blindly eat up whatever content we’re sold
I agree, we need representation, but that does not mean we can't be critical of what we are given.
Also lovely video, I didn't like "Simon vs. The homosapiens agenda" or "Love Simon" as much as I felt I was supposed too. I just didn't find the protagonist very interesting. And I am a cis white gay teenager.
YUP!!!
If I had a dollar for every gender I've met,
I would have $2 and a bunch of counterfeits eh...
aspince laframboise lmA0 iM cRyIng
I absolutely hated that the “romantic cute” ending was essentially forcing Blue to out himself in front of everyone... Also, Simon just forgave the guy who outed him? The fuxk?
It's different in the book series
@woollimy it kind of is. He's giving him an ultimatum. That's definitely a form of manipulation and a major red flag.
I would punch Martin anyday
@@ohdominoe6985 I’m pretty sure Simon said “No pressure” or something like that in a way to tell Blue he has no obligation to do it and he shouldn’t feel pressured to come out if he isn’t ready, Bram showing up was his way of saying he was ready and wanted to come! It wasn’t manipulation it was his only way of reaching out to him so he could get the message because they didn’t have emails anymore. Does that make sense? I don’t know if my phrasing sounds right, let me know if that sounds mean sorry.
@@grayson907 To be fair when has anyone saying “no pressure” made people more comfortable...
Totally irrelevant but I Love the hair colour.
SAME
Looks so good!
I swear, she's one of the reasons why I'm wanting to go blue myself!
i actually think "gays in straight tropes" is the next thing we have to overcome before getting accurate LGBTQ representation in main stream movies
Sadly I think you're right. Or alternatively "LGBT representation through the straight lens."
I don’t.
As a gay man myself I never felt properly represented by any LGBT film or the community before. I always felt like I was different from the rest because I was gay, but also because I was a ‘straight’ gay. My hurt was always made invalid and so was the discrimination I faced because I was ‘straight-passing.’
For me, Love Simon was the first LGBT film that made me feel properly represented and it really helped me accept who I am.
There’s plenty of LGBT films focussing on breaking the norms put onto us by the heteronormal society, but this was the first film that embraced ‘heteronormal gay’s’ if that makes sense.
@@roy_hks Agreed. Straight-passing gays can still have problems, and many don't have as accepting parents and friends as Simon did.
I would actually argue that in some ways it can be harder to come out because people don't expect you to be gay and your social groups may be less accepting because if you weren't "straight-passing" they wouldn't have been friends with you in the first place
@@roy_hks I'm genuinely confused about what a straight-passing gay is.
Loads of queer people can look straight, for example bi folk have a lot of issues with that but pointing out how you as a homosexual didn't relate to experience of being homosexual because you think and act like hetero is just kinda weird. Like, congrats on behaving like straight people ig?
And if you mean the near universal experience of being treated as a straight person by others... then that's literally what 99/100 queer people go through weekly and acting like it's some not talked about thing or secret just makes it seem like you've not engaged in many conversations and queer media.
The reason that mold is usually broken is because it doesn't fit people.
@@crazydragy4233 I’m not sure I understand what you mean.
I was trying to say that I rarely felt represented by gay characters because straight writers often forced them into more typical gay stereotypes, which I like many others in the community simply don’t fit. And the notion upheld by straight writers in the past, that gay people behave and should be portrayed according to certain stereotypes is harmful and homophobic.
-- Movies, short films and series mentioned or referenced in this video, with timestamps: --
Love, Simon (2018)
Friends with Benefits (2011) 8:40
Mean Girls (2004) 9:00
Booksmart (2019) 13:00
What If It's Us? (2019?) 13:20
Giant Little Ones (2018) 13:35
Rafiki (2018) 13:50
The Favourite (2018) 17:10
Tell It to the Bees (2018) 17:35
Portrait of a Lady on Fire (2019) 18:05
Bernadette/Je m'appelle Bernadette(?) (2011?) 18:25
Vita & Virginia (2018) 18:35
Wild Nights with Emily (2018) 18:50
Dickinson (2019) 19:00
Hidden Figures (2016) 19:45
Ammonite (2020) 20:15
Lizzie (2018) 21:15
Colette (2018) 21:20
Invisible Women (2019) 22:00
Bohemian Rhapsody (2018) 22:15
Rocketman (2019) 22:20
Eddie the Eagle (2015) 23:00
Kingsman: The Golden Circle (2017) 23:05
Boy Erased (2018) 23:10
The Knight Before Christmas (2019) 25:30
Happiest Season (2020) 25:35
Black Panther (2018) 27:55
Green Book (2018) 29:15
Can You Ever Forgive Me? (2018) 29:20
Jungle Cruise (2020) 33:55
Jack Whitehall: Travels with My Father (2017- ) 34:15
Philadelphia (1993), Capote (2005), Milk (2008) 35:35
Pose (2018- ), The OA (2016-2019) 37:05
Anemone (2018) 38:25
Dressed for Pleasure/Je fais où tu me dis (2017) 38:35
Thank you so much!!! 😭
holy shit thank you!
+
Please @Rowan Ellis, pin this comment down!
Tommy Vaske doing gods work
Bless you
I also feel like the book wasn't as bad as the movie for example the scene in the end was very public in the movie yet in the book they're still at the carneval but nobody sees them/is aware of them. Which I thought was a very big difference. Thank you for the video!
The book was a million times better than the film
One consideration with regards to whether we should give gay roles to straight actors is that we don't necessarily know if an actor is straight or not because they could be closeted. I believe Keiynan Lonsdale was in the closet when he landed his role in Love Simon for example, and came out partially because of his involvement with the film. So only casting out queer people for queer roles gets a little tricky when we consider we may be asking someone to come out earlier than they would otherwise in order to land a role.
Also, if you have a local theatre that isn't Cineplex or something, talk to them and ask them if they're getting the queer films you're interested in! They often book screenings based on assumed interest, so letting them know what you want to see is a good way to get them to potentially screen more queer cinema.
And yet, it's still predominantly straight people playing gay roles in movies.
Like, sure, let's not assume anyone's sexuality, but why can't roles go to people who are able to speak to the experiences as the character, rather than give it to an actor who is assumed straight but use "well, we can't assume anyone's sexuality" as an excuse to do so?
Yeah, this is something a lot of people just brush over and I wish they wouldn’t. I’m friends with an actor who only felt comfortable coming out as queer after landing a role as a queer character in a Trevor Project short. They’ve said that if they were asked about their sexuality while auditioning, they probably would’ve said straight, and then not gotten the role that helped them come out. If you know anyone in the industry, you realize this happens way more often than the public generally thinks, and it’s really important to keep that in mind.
There have been quite a few big name celebrities in the past few years who were accused of queerbaiting long before they came out (or partially came out), and in hindsight, their "baiting" in the past was an attempt to be seen or test the water, and I can't help but feel really bad for them knowing they got backlash from the very people whose support they'd desire the most because it was perceived as bait. And a few of them, despite toeing out of the closet, have inched back in after that backlash, and it's sad and we can honestly do better.
@@BlackXSunlight
I'm interested in how someone inches back in the closet?
Like, I don't condone hating on or bullying people for playing a part (within reason, obviously) but that doesn't mean that these conversations shouldn't be had. And also, what would it have been like if these actors were to have been out of the closet before auditioning? I can't help but feel like it ironically would have stifled their chances (look at Rupert Everett) which is the issue that gay actors have to deal with.
You predicted the Kit Connor drama
Rowan, keep doing what you're doing, you are a shining example of a UA-camr
love, simon to me has always been an emotional support movie of mine, definitely as a young queer person it was one of the first teen type movies about sexuality, so i still hold it v dear to me. but thank you for acknowledging things that i saw past, some things did irk me but only subconsciously. i do disagree slightly about the coming out to his mum scene (even as a person who’s closeted to my parents for personal safety) because as you said, there are different queer narratives for everyone, and it was refreshing to see familial acceptance, but i do still recognise that the majority of the lgbt community don’t benefit from this priveledge, love ur videos as always though rowan thank u for giving your insight!!!!
To be honest, Simon’s «well maybe not that gay » comment reminded me of Isak from Skam. For those of you who aren’t in the cult, basically season 3 of the show followed Isak’s budding relationship with a boy named Even, and his struggle with his sexuality, and coping with his boyfriend’s mental health. He lives in an apartment with two people, one is a very openly gay man named Eskild. Eskild was talking to Isak about being gay (I don’t remember the exact conversation) and Isak made a joke about how he wasn’t going to be like those queers wearing mascara (something like that, basically just ripping on the femme community) and it instantly lead to a lecture from Eskild, telling Isak that he had no right to make fun of people who were just being themselves and that it was those men and women’s bravery who made it possible to allow Isak to feel comfortable enough to come out. The show included that internalised homophobia and addressed it immediately, allowing for major character growth on Isak’s part.
In a way I think the fact that Love, Simon is kinda flawed, oversimplified and unrealistic is what makes it so amazing. Straight teen romances have been flawed, oversimplified and unrealistic for decades, and it's great that a gay teen romance is too. It's not arthouse or indie or Cannes worthy, it's just an upper end of average film. It's remarkable and groundbreaking because it inherently isn't remarkable or groundbreaking.
Thank you. Exactly what I was thinking. Rom-coms aren't intended to be nuanced or complicated. Straight people get unrealistic love movies all the time and it just felt so good to see exactly this light-hearted, imperfect plot full of romcom tropes, only with a gay protagonist.
Why do all gay films have to be realistic? Or depressing? Or sad? Why can’t gays have a cheesy love story?
@@popflicktionedits3256 because many gay people are poc, unprivileged and feminine and Not white, rich and straight passing as Simon.
@@a.s.03 While that is true, I think that, as a queer poc myself, we still deserve to see ourselves properly represented in films that aren't always depressing and dark.
@@misanthropicblackchick6092 Love Victor is much better representation of gay people of all experiences. They have done a better job in it than Love Simon.
I'm surprised that Gentleman Jack wasn't mentioned (or maybe it wasn't out when you were scripting the video?). I found her attitude to her sexuality freeing and healing, and I'm very much looking forward to season 2!
Especially interesting how these documents could have easily been lost at multiple points in history! Makes you wonder how many other people in history made similar documents that were discovered and destroyed by homophobic descendents/people.
ua-cam.com/video/143o4C5uZyA/v-deo.html
Yeah it's great!
Rowan is specifically talking about films and short films, not tv series.
@@lavender_evie ah yes, that's true!
@@lavender_evie well she did include the show Dickinson !
The fact that "Love, Simon" is being advertised under this video is hilarious.
You really made me realize how rather twisted that whole ending gesture is... it really was basically forcing Blue to out himself. I was also bothered by what I would consider to be interphobia in the film when Ethan makes some come-back quip to the bullies about them having a "micropenis", which struck me as rather thoughtless, because it was like "We're raising up gay boys, but we're gonna put down some other LGBT+ folks and their bodies while we're at it!"
yes, jokes about penis size always seem really thoughtlessly cruel to me, and in the context of a "feel-good" queer movie it seemed especially tone deaf! it's like they never considered that not everyone who's gay or queer is cis or has the same kind of body
@@hubertisnotmyname Agreed! It was moments like that that demonstrated a surprisingly narrow-minded train of thought. Another moment that demonstrated that for me was the scene when Martin comes to Simon's house dressed as a "Freudian Slip" and Simon scrutinizes him for wearing a dress to their Halloween party and looking "like a drag queen". I'm a trans woman and watching that scene felt like a let-down. It's like this film wanted to affirm gay kids BUT it also wanted everyone to conform to the same old gender roles and never mess with the status quo.
bluestrawbowl Jesus my dude quit overthinking it. He insulted his bullies, insults aren’t pc and you ever consider the character is not pc himself? Doesn’t mean the movie is saying you should bully micro penis individuals, it’s just something the character says.
Oh and just because your a homosexual with a small penis doesn’t mean your trans.
So I’m a white cisgender straight guy, so obviously my opinion here comes with a big grain of a salt, but I’d like to point out something about Ethan and Simon’s dynamic, there’s a bit where they and two bullies are sent to the principal’s office, and while The bullies are getting their “stern talking to” Ethan asks Simon why he never talked to him about being gay, and Simon jokes it was because they don’t have much in common but then admits it was mostly because he was jealous that Ethan seemed to have it so easy as far as being out goes, and Ethan in turn rants about how not easy his life is. And while Simon never overtly apologizes for his rather nasty opinion, Simon does look very uneasy sitting next to Ethan, which you can look at as him being Aware of his shitty words and being uncomfortable being potentially confronted by the person his shitty words were about. Maybe I’m grasping at straws, but I think the movie deserves credit for this at least. I will say, I see your point with the rest of your commentary about the film. The stuff you say about Simon being blackmailed and then pressuring his crush into publicly outing himself is definitely something that rings poorly.
Actually, you're quite right. Ethan's putting Simon firmly in his place is one of the highlights and a rare moment of male competence in the film. Unfortunately, they all come with a price.
seto749 I’m not sure what you mean by “come with a price” can you explain? I’m not trying to argue, I’m genuinely confused here
@@WoodstockProd When any of the male characters get a strong moment, there's always a sting in the tail. Ethan puts Simon in his place, but has to be made into the stereotypical Gay Best Friend that girls would want to take shopping. Cal is genuinely kind and supportive, but his character is practically gutted as well as turned straight (though we're only told that in the commentary) because that was the kind of friend the director wished he'd had in real life. Simon's father has to ruin his good supportive moment and emphasize how superior a parent Simon's mother is (although that was partly because they deleted a scene where she oversteps and Simon has to cry out, "WE are not gay!"), etc. I don't think it was entirely deliberate, but there's a strong undercurrent of Women's being Better At Life.
seto749 that’s fair, but I think that’s kind of just unfortunate tropes typical to a lot of American entertainment. While I like the film, I don’t think it’s good specifically because of it’s director, who’s very well known for giving the world Dawson‘s Creek. I’m not defending him mind, I’m just saying this isn’t something I think is uniquely problematic about Love, Simon. Though I should say, it not being a unique issue, doesn’t make it not an issue
@@WoodstockProd You're right that it's certainly a common thing. It does rankle more in what purports to be a gay film, though, in a lesbian film, I'd likely consider it an asset if well done. I'd like the whole Alphabet Soup to have an amicable divorce and each letter be considered separately on its own merits - we can make good neighbours, but we're bad housemates.
I don't necessarily have a problem with looking at historical women who never married and projecting lesbian narratives onto them, because that was surely the case for many of those women, but I would also appreciate if more people projected or even just acknowledged potentially asexual narratives. I would LOVE a historical drama featuring an explicitly asexual heroine. I know the people who assume secret gay relationships are usually only doing it because they're looking for representation for themselves, but it does sting a little bit when people don't acknowledge that asexuality is a possibility as well. I always feel like my sexuality is treated as the boring, less interesting option when there could be SEX or ROMANCE. I hope representation for asexuals and aromantics gets better in years to come.
Well said, completely agree
i think The Lady's guide to Petticoats and Piracy is EXACTLY about what you're talking about!
There's a Portuguese poet/writer called Fernando Pessoa that never married and its believed he died a virgin because the one known relationship he had was with a woman, through letters only (he always refused to meet with her) and I do believe he was asexual, given his poems, because as opposed to many other poets, he never seemed to have a hint of want or will or anything in terms of sexual, or, for that matter, romantic interest.
THISSSSSSSSSS~!!L!
Melissa C Id recommend a gentleman’s guide to vice and virtue, and then a ladies guide to petticoats and piracy. The first one has an ace girl as a character, and the second has her as a lead.
I was so annoyed when Simon's friends abandoned him even after they found out he was being blackmailed
It's understandable. I mean how would you feel if you were being manipulated by your best friend and even got your heart broken over being black mailed? Chances are you'd be pretty pissed too. Yeah, you'd probably forgive them eventually, but it would take time
Amira Elisabeth Wiley heart broken, though? i personally do not think it was that serious. okay, so he tried to get martin with abby. so what? i understand why abby would be upset, but it literally wasn’t that serious if you understand why he did it. he told nick that abby didn’t like him. so what? is your life over now? are you going to die? you’ll never find love again after abby? like girl. it’s not that damn serious. and him not knowing leah liked him is not his fault. him actually setting her up on a date with nick was nice, unless i misunderstood and simon actually knew leah liked him. all of these things are minor compared to simon’s issue. i would think these teens would understand why he did it?? it’s not like they’re 50 year old conservative adults...youre 17 and 18 year old teens growing up in the age of acceptance. are they just that slow or did the writers try to force a conflict between them?
@@ashtonb7931 what I wish was addressed was the thought that if someone blackmailed and manipulated you to get with your friend would you not have concerns that that same person would then blackmail and manipulate your friend to stay with them? I really hated Martin but I also had a problem with Simon because I felt like the thought didn't occur to him that he could be getting his friend into a potentially abusive relationship to keep his secret. He at least owed Abby that explanation because she was potentially at risk. I felt like they made it more about relationship drama to keep the light hearted feel of the movie. That was one of the reasons I didn't like it.
Portait De La Jeune Fille En Feu is actually and incredibly beautiful movie (in terms of cinématography), it talks about women painters, about gay relationships, is made by a gay woman, it's really great, go see it
Do you know where to watch it online?
I totally agree, it's so beautiful!!
@@k80_ I got it on torrent in perfect quality. a good print is out there bro, seize it! such a good film 😭
One thing that fascinated me about Rocketman was that it was framed so heavily as a platonic love story between Bernie and Elton. It's such a soft and intimate portrayal of their friendship, and it hits a lot of stereotypical love story beats. There is one 'no-homo' scene (maybe that happened in real life, but I have a suspicion they threw that in so the mainstream audience, who probably know that Elton John is queer and might not know who Bernie Taupin is, don't think it's going to turn into a romance), but other than that it's not really questioned that a straight man and a queer man can be such intimate friends. It's just a part of the story, and while they don't shy away from the homophobia Elton experienced they also don't insincerely inscribe a tension onto the friendship in order to safeguard Bernie's position as a straight man or whatever, and instead do just the opposite, focusing the movie on bringing out the beauty and intimacy of their friendship.
It just struck me as really powerful and subtly disruptive to tell a platonic love story between two men where the lead character is famously queer and it just isn't an issue. It just flies in the face of so much stigma that still exists around queer/straight male friendships.
I'm also completely obsessed with Elton and Bernie's work though so I may be biased lol. (Also, another link in the chain you mentioned is that Taron Eagerton was in *Sing* , which was produced by Elton John and directed by his husband. I believe his performance of *Your Song* in that movie was a huge reason he was brought on to *Rocketman* .)
Anyway, my obsession with Elton John aside, this might be my new favorite series on UA-cam. I've never cared much for film criticism (or films in general) but I'm absolutely here for taking a long hard look into the future of queer film that doesn't settle for assimilation.
Love Simon feels like a watered down version of a cishetero approved movie of homosexuality.
Its a feel-good movie for straight people Who want to say "im not homophobic! I watched Love Simon!"
It feels good for lgbt people (like me) who just wanted to see a fun, light-hearted movie that's not centered around sex or tragedy. As almost all queer films are. So no, it's not only cishetero approved. It's also asexual, non-binary lesbian approved. (ofc there's allowed to be criticism but.. I just felt so at home in that movie, I was so thankful it existed, I wouldn't want it to be any different.)
@@lucam9806 that’s beautiful
@@lucam9806 true but it also just feels like a fanfic :/
Why do all gay films have to be dark and depressing? Why can’t gays have their own cheesy love story just like straights?
you're not the only one who wasn't a big fan of love, simon! I was also wildly uncomfortable with a lot of it, including some of the same things you said here like his friends reaction and the public outing of blue. As someone who actually got outed in high school, this movie just reminded me of how awful that situation actually was, and how much I felt for simon and the impossible situation he was in. And then to see all those people online absolutely loving it and being happy for finally getting queer rep, I felt guilty for not liking it and like I *had* to like it or I wouldn't be a "good queer" or something.
I had this as well and this video makes me feel so validated! I thought I had to be dead silent about this movie after all of my straight cis friends pretty much yelled at me to shut up about criticising it, and it feels really nice to see this.
I've watched many many gay coming of age movies and I absolutely HATE the trope of "I'm not like those other gays" that unfortunately I feel is getting more common. I understand that it's important to explore different gay experiences and I can see the need for narratives that deal with the anxiety of discovering your lgbt identity when your experience doesn't match the image you've been given of the community. However I feel like these stories are often told in a way that implies that people who on the surface fit the "gay stereotype" are somehow harmful, embarrassing or less important. I absolutely hate the implication that being for example a very effeminate gay man is somehow easier than being "just a normal dude" but gay and that the existence of "stereotypically gay" people is a problem because all the none offensive normal gays get lumped in with "those people". These kinds of divisions in the lgbt community are already a problem in real life and I really wish they didn't promote that kind of divisiveness and exclusion in films especially for a younger audience. I really wish to see a story like this that properly explores these differences in gay experiences without ending up implying that the problem is the loud and effeminate gays instead of society that defines us only by stereotypes and refuses to accept the diversity, uniqueness and differences between lgbt experiences.
These movies being filled with internalised homophobia honestly aren't surprising. It's a closed circle of hate
Although there are other teen gay movies, it seemed to be the first mainstream (like also to cis straight audiences) (but also maybe as you said bc it was a palatable type of gay, which is bad. But I did like that it was actually mainstream which was different). But I hated that the friends were mad at him, he was being blackmailed and had the chance of being outed! (I loved when the one PG13 ‘fuck’ was when he screamed at the guy). But the friends were not seen as wrong for being mad? It’s... scary being outed against your consent. That’s so messed up, I agree. I was so frustrated watching that.
Oh! Also his friend definitely i thought was going to be bi or lesbian when she was like “Do you feel weird ever?” And also when she was so wowed by the girl in the Wonder Woman costume! I was really confused i very much thought she was gonna be wlw and then it was like Simon never even noticed she was also going through the struggle of coming out.
* also I think of But I’m A Cheerleader but I don’t think that can count as a fluffy teen movie as the setting is a gay conversion camp.
Both girls come out as bisexual in the second book.
That's the stupid thing because (spoiler alert for "Leah on the Offbeat") in the book she was into Abby and in the film they made it seem like that too only to have her be into Simon instead, which makes no sense. The reason why Simon thought Leah was into Nick made sense in the book because Leah was into Abby. Also, Leah already knew she was bisexual before Simon came out, while Abby only figured it out afterwards in book two.
Chloe Rose you should read the book ‘Simon vs the homo sapiens agenda’ and its sequel ‘Leah on the offbeat’, they are much better than the film and I have never related to a character more than Leah in the books
In the second book it involves Leah being bi and he struggles in coming out. It’s rly good and I highly recommend the read
black rose it rly annoys me that they turned her into liking Simon in the book. Like. Nooo you idiot
My friends and I watched Love, Simon separately and apparently we were all over it from the first line... The begining "I'm just like you except I'm in the closest" monologue. Then shows massive suburban home in mostly white neighborhood as if that was relatable. We definitely talked about who this movie was meant for or if it was just hallow representation.
yeah, that struck me too. How many people actually live in a place like that?
Simons Privilege didn’t bother me because it actually showed that you can have everything, supportive family, freinds and yet still coming out can be incredibly difficult, yeah it’s a story about a particular type of person to appeal to a particular audience but I think it justifies its existence....unlike day tall girl where it’s just like “...shut up your fine”
Snoozopoulos people in movies often live a few levels higher than reality, even poor characters
@@91Vault I don't mind watching movies with wealthy characters. It's just Simon's portrayal of himself as "just an ordinary, relatable guy" kind of highlighted to me how he may not actually be relatable to many people watching the movie.
@@Sikosm Plus, that scenario does really take away the relatability for LGBT teens in scary situations. Simon's worrying so hard about coming out but the movie continuously paints this like the only person against Simon is Simon himself, and even his living situation seems to exist for this reason. Simon's life is portrayed as near perfect and we're continuously shown how 'supportive' his (abusive crappy) friends are, how much his parents are chill with it, and even his mom's big speech is about how he just needs to love himself and everything will be okay. It's really infuriating as an LGBT kid because it portrays a character whose only real issue is internalised homophobia and doesn't even stop to criticise this issue.
It's pretty much all just feeding in to the movie practically screaming that this is a very straight-woman portrayal of a gay person.
for me one of the good things about love simon is that it is rated pg-13 which is really hard to find lgbt movies that are not rated r.
I always thought that his friends were really shitty and treated him terribly, right at the moment he needed the most support, and the fact that the movie never showed this as bad made me hate the movie tbh. We deserve better.
Same here. I didn't think I'd hate it as much as I did, but the movie is a really bad memory for me and reminds me of exactly why coming out was so difficult and shit for me.
right because he didn’t try to pimp out one of them for his own benefit. It was okay for him to do that and it’s not okay for them to get mad at him for that
@@WeiYinChan Deliberately doing down Simon's problems and exaggerating Abby's, who was by all rights in a more privilege position at the time, is borderline homophobia. He didn't "pimp" out anyone. And no, it was not okay for his friends to act that way. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Summanus Pax I’m not down playing Simon’s problem, but it was ultimately his own problem and not Abby’s, she wasn’t responsible for him getting blackmailed and it was wrong of him to make her suffer the consequences. Like it’s okay to ask your friends to sacrifice something to help you out, but it’s not okay to make that decision for them without their knowledge. He betrayed her and broke the trust in their friendship first and that’s the fact.
How’s she more privileged? She was a working class woman of colour and is implied to be bisexual in the book while he was a middle class white man, and has a liberal family that would accept his sexuality. If you want to play the oppressed Olympic he won’t win. And what does privilege have to do with anything in the first place? Again he was the one who put the burden of his own problems on her, privilege is pretty irrelevant here. It’s not homophobic to say you can’t sell out your friends like that to protect yourself for whatever reasons. He was putting her at risk to protect himself, he knows the blackmailer was a bad person and definitely not a good fit for his friend, there’s no saying what he would do if he have his hopes up for Abby and she tries to reject him. Yet Simon still thought it’s okay to coerce her into meeting him even when she was clearly uncomfortable, which led to her being publicly humiliated (luckily nothing worse happened), how is she supposed to not get angry after that and then knowing her friend whom she trusted to have her best interest at heart was behind that. And how is she supposed to trust him at all after y’all? Yes he was in a tough spot but he chose the wrong option and it was justified that she feel like she can’t trust him anymore and is angry about being betrayed.
yeah, i thought even if they were mad at him for lying, they would fight off the homophobic bullies, they just sat there.
when i was watching love, simon it made me angry that they abandoned him when he was outed, like, it is a huge deal for someone and they just blamed everything on him
the series The Politician has a cis character played by a trans actor!!
the character james is played by trans actor theo germaine
Donna Chambers in ahs 1984 is played by a trans character (Angelica Ross)
that show SLAPS
Also, The Umbrella Academy has Elliot Page as Vanya. I know he was playing this character before come out as trans, but I think is so cool that he will keep the role.
When I was watching Love, Simon my prevailing feeling throughout the piece was that it was not made for us. I’m literally almost the exact demographic of Simon, a gay, white, middle class, high school male but that’s not who the movie was for. It was made for straight people. The fact that Simon basically victim blames the other gay kid, the fact that homophobia is depicted as just a few bad apples, the fact that he’s a very gender conforming, generally assimilationist person. I’m not saying that’s a wholly bad thing, that’s just what I got from it.
When I went in there with a guy I was dating at the time, the entire cinema was filled with straight white girls who were screaming and laughing through the movie at any gay moments. As two gays, we felt incredibly uncomfortable not only at the movie itself but also being in a situation where our love was being treated like a fetishistic overly cute thing. It was... really gross. I've watched other romances, straight ones I've adored (I'm bisexual), and never have I seen female audiences reacting to those scenes like that or shouting out gay jokes.
I'm in agreement with you after that experience. The movie was made for pretty much the opposite of LGBT people, and its largest defenders seem to usually be straight white upper middle class women.
How EXACTLY was this made for straight people? Give me EXAMPLES.
@@Ray03595 The filmmakers of this movie can't help how the audience would react. And give me actual examples as to how this movie was made for straight people?
@@kropotkinnie The filmmakers of this movie can't help how the audience would react. And give me actual examples as to how this movie was made for straight people?
@@modernworld9239 First line of the movie "Hi I'm Simon and I'm just like you!" (Upper middle class white dude with a perfect family). I mean, the movie is telling you right there the type of audience they are expecting. The straight friends are never in the wrong, everything is Simon's fault. Simon is depicted as the most digestible gay person ever, while the other gay person is an outcast and looked down upon by Simon. That's no coincidence. And it's not to say there aren't gays like him, but it's typical that this type of character would be the first attempt. But listen, there's a lot of stuff I like about the film too, and I overall enjoyed it. It did show how hard coming out can be and how personal it can be. It showed parents good reactions to finding out and good support from them. I just think it was very obvious they had the straight audience in mind for much of the movie. Not a horrific sin, but still apparent.
There's an interesting trend this decade wherein actors who PLAY queer characters later "come out"/are outed as queer themselves: the filming experience making them more comfortable with disclosing their queerness with the public; their role giving them the opportunity to explore beyond cis & heteronormativity; or due to increased attention on an actor whose queerness was an "open secret" WITHIN The Industry but not to the world at large.
I enjoyed the BOOK that "Love, Simon" was based on but merely hearing the rename was enough to turn me off the film adaptation. ITS BOOK TITLE IS AWESOME, OKAY? In hindsight? I was completely correct in assuming that the dulled down title was indicative of the story DEFINITELY getting "straightwashed" in its adaptation.
re: queer fiction... She-Ra will devastate you in the most EPIC of ways. the show is not romance-driven but it IS very, very queer. Though there ARE two established queer couples, the show's "queerness" is felt more through the hugely varied gender expression of its characters. The queerness of She-Ra's creators is evident in how easily this diversity is FELT instead of merely seen or heard.
also love Double Trouble representing as a nonbinary character
@@jazbidgood4341 You kidding? The show's only nonbinary character being a shapeshifting lizard alien is SUPER yikes.
Joe Francis not trying to be annoying here, just want to understand, why do you think it’s problematic?
@@jazbidgood4341 in my opinion its sad that they
1) didn't use a human but a lizard, not making enbies more normal but more associated with "others" and "not human"
2) they're a shapeshifter, a well known symbol for deception. Enforcing the "Trans people try to decieve others"
Speederzzz thanks for explaining, that was really helpful 😊
Re: tragic endings
While tragic stories often need to be told, we need to be conscious of how much trauma we vicariously take in while watching people who representation. It takes a toll.
We also shouldn't justify it based on the idea that LGBTQ tragedy will advance our causes with straight people. They will cry, applaud the straight actor, and refuse to make any accommodation that inconveniences them.
This is essentially why reactions to CMBYN pissed me off. Straights got a good cry, fangirled over Chalamet and called it a day. Also, this weird popular thing among teen/young adult females where they like the fetishize and create loyal followings around gay male couples. The level of obsession exceeds even straight males.
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT BOOKSMART IT'S THE BEST AND MOST RELATABLE MOVIE I'VE SEEN PROBABLY EVER AND I'M SO SAD IT WAS A BOX OFFICE FLOP😭😭😭
I wish we had more historical movies that acknowledged LGBTQ people could sometimes find places to be happy. More things like Maurice.
wow. i'm gonna have to watch this again. and again. and again. you're so freaking good at this, Rowan.
I’ve not seen the film yet, but I very recently read the book, and seeing those clips of the film was incredibly frustrating. Simons first meeting with Blue at the carnival is very private and sweet, and when Blue says he might not be ready to be completely out yet Simon is very understanding. And then they later show more scenes of them in a relationship.
Though I have to say that the baseless coming out fears I liked because it took me years to come out to the family that has always said ‘we don’t care who you date as long as you’re happy’.
‘Simon vs’ is so much better than the Film, much more thoughtful and the sequel is great too.
“Love Simon, I’m just like you. I have a car, Live in a rich neighborhood, 2 parents, am a white cis man” they make him out to be so relatable but he’s not that relatable most teens don’t have a car at 16 I can barbely relate to him as a person
I really loved that him coming out wasn't a big deal to others but himself. That's how I felt. I knew my parents would accept me, I knew my friends would accept me, but I was still horrified. When I came out it didn't really matter and it felt like I got something off my chest that I had been hiding for no reason. I find it very refreshing that his fear of coming out was from within and not because of fear from the outside cause that's how I felt.
I was disappointed that Simon himself was very hostile to feminine gayness and it was also weird that his friends blamed him for what happened. I still love the movie cause it's one of the few set in this time and I feel like the writing and the friendships are real and well made.
I feel like the thing with Blue could be interpreted as him standing by Simon. They connected over their journey and fell in love and then Simon was outed. Blue wanted to be there for him and also wanted to come out (he was scared but he wanted to) and saw this as the perfect opportunity, so they wouldn't have to do it alone but could do it together.
I mean as someone very involved in disability rights the element of “cripping up” has a similar if not slightly worse issue of disabled leads basically never being played by disabled actors and some I’ve met even get the vibe the academy is saying how brave to demean yourself to the level of an inferior. How many films are we going to have where they’ll pay more on effects and prosthetics than they would on a genuinely disabled actor. And if people come out with the star power argument plenty of film get buy on a star studded supporting cast.
For more coverage on this sort of topic theirs many good UA-cam videos covering films like wonder and especially Me Before You which the book version is so poorly handled the spinal injury he’s diagnosed with doesn’t even exist.
I’d love for you to talk about “they both die in the end”. It was an amazing book with realistic lgbt characters. I read it within a day I loved it so much
i'm really glad you're able to criticize love simon. whenever i brought up my problems with it people treated it like sacrilege
I didn't like 'Love, Simon' as well. I have so many problems with that story.
I think my favourite queer stories are all from Japan. There is a Japanese miniseries called 'My Brother's Husband', where the protagonist is visited by his gay brother's husband after the brother's death. The story has no romance, and it doesn't have violent homophobia. The homophobia is so subtle that it is actually much scarier and painful. It's mostly about understanding family.
Also, for people who like reading manga, there is a manga called 'Shimanami Tasogare' or 'Our Dreams at Dusk', which was written by an asexual non binary author. That is simply the best LGBT+ story I have ever read. It is generally quite simple and lighthearted. The protagonist, a gay boy, ends up meeting various people like a lesbian couple, trans people and more. They all become friends and do volunteer work. It's the only story I have read that doesn't force characters to come out; and it also has characters who question their gender and sexuality, but are not required to come to a conclusion in a certain amount of time (because, you know, it can take years to fully understand these things). The amount of effort the author put into the story makes every page enjoyable, and every chapter overflow with emotions.
TDLR: The character Ethan is unneeded and feels disrespectful.
One thing that kinda irked me was the character Ethan. He wasn’t in the book at all, And it seemed disrespectful to throw in a stereotypical gay character. I have nothing against a gay character who acts more stereotypical but it kinda felt as Ethan was the “model gay.” Pushing the narrative that “coming out isn’t a big deal.” And you’re supposed to do what he did. Just come out and don’t be upset if you get shit for it because it’s not a big deal. I could be overreacting though, but it was just a bit annoying to see.
I think Ethan's character had potential but falls flat and is never really used effectively
Love Simon: **exists**
Crazy straight girls who want a gay BFF: EEEEE **straight girl squeals intensify** OMG it's so CUTE UwU OwO
lesbians: ? -_-
WE NEED MORE LESBIAN MOVIES
do you live in 2012?
exactly, i saw a bunch of straight girls saying “ OmG He’S SoOoOOo hOTT” about the dude who plays Simon and i’m like girl chill out this is a gay movie.
I'm a straight girl and this comment was really funny and ironic.
straight girls who fetishize and treat gay guys as if they’re some kind of pet are the bane of my existence fr
@@siratlas8198 and they're just as Bad as straight guys who think lesbians are hot and fetishize them too
Many of the heterosexual gaze elements you mentioned for Love, Simon were not in the book, at least to my memory. I know for sure the carnival scene was incredibly private, no spectators, hardly even any strangers around. This has made me very glad I never saw the film despite loving the book, though the book does have issues, probably mostly in that it’s a very white, middle class, suburban perspective (which, to be fair, is my perspective so I felt pretty seen). I remember thinking the trailers seemed very oriented towards straight people, but it was mostly the making Leah skinny that caused me avoid it.
This is just a story I wanted to share:
Once we were in the locker rooms changibg for P.E. and one girl said to another girl, which was standing beside me, something like: "Hey, do you remember that we wanted to watch this film 'Love,Simom'? " And the adressed girl said "Mmh, yeah. What about it?"-"Found out it was about a gay guy and his love interest or something." And as she said that she kind of cringed/grimaced and laughed at this, in more of a bad way. Like "This movie is about a gay and that is kind of funny and also a bit annoying." (You understand me?) It hurt be in an emotional way. It is not like I praise 'Love, Simon' for its representation, since I haven't seen it or read it but only read a bit of critism on it, but just this dismissive mention of it. I identify as queer and it just hurt.
[The same girl also said she cannot imagine herself kissing a girl ever, and she made promises with two other girl that if she was 50/60 (it depends on which girl she promised it with) and single and one of the other girls too they could have an relationship.]
This also bugs me.
But another thing: Some male classmates also make gay jokes and I feel bad for not stopping them because if I did they would just wave me off and say that it's just a joke (None of them outed themselves, nor those it seem like that, except maybe one of them, who does not seem too happy with these jokes being made and also never says some.) I am a queer feminist, I feel like a hypocritical pathetic bystander.
And that this one girl mentioned before sometimes says things like "then I am a Lesbian with Alexis*" or "They probably think we are gay since we are dancing 'Walzer' together" (she and I danced the 'Walzer' in the classroom) but things like dancing with a person of the same sex does not make you gay and it is hurtful to the LGBTQ+ and queer community to say things like 'I am a lesbian because I cuddle with my best friend.'
Sonetimes I cannot believe that we were actually pretty close friends.
*Alexis: made-up name
Sorry about this rant, but I just wanted to share it.
Mary Anning is giving me more of an ace vibe than a gay one tbh
it would be AWESOME to have a movie with an ace lead
What a wonderful and on point analysis!!! You said so many important things and gave me a lot to think about.
I would recommend Skam, a norwegian webshow, to everyone. Although it also has its problems and can be discussed, it shows the coming out experience for teens very realistically and breaks with a lot of stereotypes. There are also currently 7 other remakes of it from other countries!
What got me the most upset at the film, is how it tried to make us sympathize with his friends after they got upset at him for being afraid to be outed. Simon messed up and apologized, but his friends never made the effort to make it up to him for abandoning him at his worst.
Kudos to the hard work that went into this, I’m so pleased to be able to absorb your knowledge and hear how you word certain concepts. Ex: Being in the closet as a character flaw/growth arc is such transparently straight nonsense. Like others have said, coming out is not a single event, and doing so doesn’t mean you’re better or more self-actualized than those not out to whatever nebulous amount of people straight writers imagine.
Rowan, your channel is so important and I'm thankful that UA-cam recommended it to me. It's been so eye opening to hear your media critiques, which have given me perspective on elements of the LGBTQ+ life and cinema that have never occurred to me before.
The ending of Love, Simon felt so icky to me and I never really understood why everyone loved the movie as much as they seemed to.
I agree with a lot of the problems you pointed out in the movie. I feel frustrated, though, that some people criticize that Simon acts more gender-conforming. That's more relatable to my experience and I haven't seen it very much in media. Most of the stories with gay characters that I've seen portray them as feminine and/or have a bunch of fem stereotypes thrown onto them which I can't relate to, so I feel a bit alienated by it. It implies that sexuality determines personality. I'm not saying it's better or worse to conform with gender but just that I wish the representation was more varied.
If anyone is looking for a lgbtq+ film: „And Then We Danced“ is a film about a Georgian dancer who falls in love with another man. Family, friends and love are at the centre of the movie. It‘s a beautiful film and I highly recommend watching it. 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
You should probably elaborate to the Anglophones that you don't mean the US state or British time period
See, but here's where I disagree, this is not about Simon accepting his homosexuality or accepting his place in a repressed society (which it's not), it's about him accepting himself entirely and what that means to him. The gay musical moment is a fantastic visual exploration into the different identities that LGBTQ struggle with inside their own community. Simon is not a femme, not even metrosexual and that was kind of the point. He's irrationally assuming that by coming out, everyone will regard him differently and regard him as the other, and that's where setting it in 2018 makes it work.
The only openly gay character is being bullied but only by two jerks, while the rest of the school doesn't care that he is gay. And to me, that is progress. Simon comes out and no one is bothered because in this day and age we don't need to be. Ultimately, his friends are upset at Simon because he lied and manipulated all of them instead of just being honest. Yes, Leah is disappointed but that's life. Sometimes the person you like doesn't like you the same way but beyond that, there's no indication that anyone is bothered by his homosexuality. Hell, there's even a deleted scene where Nick takes Simon to a gay bar to prove how supportive he is.
And far as tropes go, that's storytelling. Film as a medium is about glamor and heightened reality while exploring universal themes. So while the Ferris wheel scene may not be " realistic " it's still a strong emotional climax.
Exactly. I'm "straight-passing" and it's made accepting myself harder because the people around me don't expect it and it makes me even more unsure if they'll be cool with it.
Tropes can be harmful which is why they get scrutinised.. saying something is just a movie doesn't negate how it impacts our culture. Tradition is not an end in of itself
The crazy thing about Love Simon, is that it was written by a closeted queer, and they were forced to out themselves because of the backlash to it.
Thank you so much for making this video. It's so important to talk about the "little things" when talking about LGBTQ+ media. It's always the "little things" that mean the most. Gay media speaks for the community, in a sense, and shapes the way that people look at us. The end of Love, Simon left me feeling icky and anxious the first time I watched it... I couldn't really figure out why, but you put my feelings into words. Thank you! Keep doing what you're doing :)
"Portrait of a lady on fire" is SUCH a beautiful movie, GOD. Watch it if you get the chance!
Take a shot every time Rowan says the phrase "The idea that..." or "The idea being..." in her videos XD
Good video though.
The Miseducation of Cameron Post is a favorite.
i had really weird feelings in my gut when i walked away from Love Simon and i could never figure out what it was but honestly you just summed it up perfectly. It’s the lack of resolution, it’s the feeling of Simon being punished for not taking the L and all his friends being treated like they’re perfectly in the right. It was always buzzing in the back of my head whenever the topic came up. It’s great to have the words to articulate my feelings now. Thanks!
NOTE: this is a bit of a rant (not against Rowan, you're doing great!)
On the note of intersectionality in LGBTQ2+ cinema, which you refer to quite a few times in this video, one film has always stood out to me (in not a great way). The Miseducation of Cameron Post.
In the film, the main protagonist befriends two teens also attending conversion therapy. One of these teens is Adam Red Eagle, well established as two-spirit and with a strong identity as a Native American character. Adam's long hair is mentioned a couple times throughout the film, positioned as a problem for the conversion therapy counsellors and threatened to be buzzed off if not tied back from Adam's face. Not long after this threat is made Adam is shown in a scene with a buzzed scalp, their long hair gone.
Watching this film in a UK cinema, it was clear from the lack of response from the audience that the gravity of what had occurred was lost. This was only made worse when the film made no mention of the symbolic nature of cutting Adam's hair, the very blatant references to colonialism, assimilation, physical and mental abuse, and the overall Residential School system that still existed only a couple of decades ago. The film made an effort by casting a Native American actor for a Native American role (a low bar), depicting a two-spirit character (not often seen on film or television) and even making reference to the forms of abuse used to target racial and ethnic minorities (in this instance, the head-shaving). The film fell very, very flat, however, by limiting itself to just a reference. It depicts a culturally-specific (though similar forms can be seen affecting other marginalised groups) trauma on screen and did nothing to speak to the impact of such trauma. Instead, it felt like the film gave itself a pat on the back for being "inclusive" and moved on.
If LGBTQ2+ cinema is to keep progressing, it needs to be increasingly aware of what it is electing to depict and questioning whether it is fully prepared and qualified to create such a depiction. LGBTQ2+ cinema needs more diversity (this is especially true for television, but that would require a whole other rant to address). It's a very simple idea really, I am a white gay woman and even I felt for much of my teen years and even now sometimes as I near my mid-twenties that the depictions in cinema don't feel relatable or as if they could represent myself or my experiences in some way. That feeling can only be stronger for those whose identities intersect to face substantial everyday marginalisation and even violence. Imagine that you are such a marginalised member of the LGBTQ2+ community and you finally feel like a character in a film may represent you, your experience, your culture or any other aspect of who you are as a person. When you watch the film, however, you are confronted with additional trauma, without warning, apology or any sense of reflexivity by the film's producers. That is what The Miseducation of Cameron Post presented to its audiences.
I think The Miseducation of Cameron Post fell short completely as a film. It ripped out the heart of the book and just showed a few scenes of girls kissing (no back story as to who those girls were to Cameron, how they helped her and shaped her) it completely disregarded the whole scene and blow up of why she got outed in the first place, ruined all of her friendships (her best male friend was just shown as a boyfriend that was shocked to find her with a girl) The relationship with her Gran, and the impact of her parents dying was left out, the scene in the conversion camp that in the book was so powerful just fell flat (and it made Cameron find the guy after his self harm, which wasn't the case), the whoooole ending was cut out and replace with a lack luster 'sitting in a car, staring at nothing' - Just EUGH. I could go on but I'm not even writing sentences at this point. I watched the film only a few days after reading the book so the one dimension, heartless, blah of a film stood out even more
@@Catsandcamera Could not agree more about the sum of the film!
The book was genuinely (and personally) a joy to read, with considerable nuance and actual insight into who each character was and their role in Cameron's life. I was surprised when the film stripped it down as much as they did, taking the very bare skeleton of each character (thus making them pretty one-note) and the very rough idea of what the book was about, transforming it into almost a brand new story. I thought the casting was decent, as was the acting (from my limited understanding of that kind of thing hahah), so it was a shame to see it all kind of go to waste. It was strange too the liberties the film took in terms of reorganizing things in the plot (like discovering the boy after his self-harm, as you mentioned), completely adding in the head shaving when it's never mentioned in the book (as far as I can recall) and the complete omission of half the book that contextualizes Cameron's experiences and relationships. I finished the book a couple months before seeing the film, so I had a while to let my expectations grow unreasonably and, boy, was I disappointed. Finishing only a couple days before, though, I can imagine how fresh your imagining of the book would be and then to have it let down like it was, must've been quite the trip!
Whats the 2 for in LGBTQ2+ ??
@@ayana9490 Two-spirited! I think the LGBTQ2+ acronym is close to the government and public health standard in Canada now (or at least any acronym that includes "2"), but it would be great to see it continue to expand in acknowledgement of North American Indigenous populations.
@@mannyfan01 Why include 2? wouldn't the + LGBTQ+ not just cover everything else too?
i've loved this series so much. hearing your educated opinions is so refreshing and i always go away feeling like i learned something.
i really wish Love, Simon had followed the book’s plot more closely. Simon and Blue’s relationships is developed a lot more both through the emails and after they discover each other’s identities, and Simon never even pulls the grand gesture move, Blue joins him on a ride when nobody else is really paying attention because he wants to come out to Simon.
plus, Simon’s friends don’t abandon him. Leah falls out with him because she felt he was excluding her by only hanging out with Abby and Nick and lying about it, but Abby and Nick understand that he was being blackmailed and stand by his side. they’re much better friends in the book.
This series is a triumph, thank you for making such a well researched and amazing project, I feel galvanized!
I'd love to read that article with the 62 other queer teen flicks, but I couldn't find it online :(
I think the website it was on got shut down 😭
If you look around Rowan’s Tumblr a bit you’ll find it! Good luck!
P M thank you!
What you said towards the end really made me feel grateful for my film club at school. My one friend has started a film club in school, and while there are quite a few white cishet boys in it, there is a really diverse range of people in it. Queer/questioning people, poc, and disabled people actually outnumber the straight white males.
The club leader wants the short film we make to have everyone involved in some way. Despite being a rich white kid, he wants to use that to help others do what they normally couldn’t. From having the money for software and cameras for other people to use to hosting online discussions where everyone contributes, I’m really excited for what this club has to offer!
Thank you for all your diligent and patient work, by the way, Rowan :)  It's appreciated for sure
i couldve never put that into words. What you said about the ending is literally something ive been trying to wrap my head around since seeing the movie in theaters. (forcing blue to come out). Blue never wanted to come out, Simon had been forcing the "out and proud" agenda on him for a good portion of the film since he himself was forced out.
the first time i watched love simon i had a very strong emotional reaction to it, as it mirrored aspects of my life i was going through at the time, namely plucking up the courage to come out to my mum. however, when i tried to rewatch it a few months ago, i couldn't even get the whole way through the movie. it was so clearly made with a heterosexual audience in mind, exemplified by the "i'm just like you, but gay" voiceover at the top of the film. it felt weird to be watching a film ABOUT someone like me, but not FOR someone like me. i also could not stand the whole blackmailing plot, and i feel like there weren't enough consequences, or even thought, given to martin, who outed simon. all of your other criticisms i completely agree with, like simon's femme shaming and internalised homophobia not being addressed whatsoever
This is one of my favorites videos of yours. Thank you for expressing your concerns about Love, Simon so eloquently. I didn’t want to see it but couldn’t put my finger on why I was put off by it. This whole video is so great and I am going to google more about your academic work since you mentioned a dissertation! 👊
It's Honestly painful to see representation where it's ''Network gay''
or gay fetishization.
or ' bury a gay'' or queerbait
I'm not picky I Swear!
This is one of the first videos I’ve seen created by you and it was quite lovely and insightful. Thank you! ☺️
Loved this video so much. Also, something I'd really like would be an asexual person, expecially a non-heteroromantic one.
hi rowan i truly am using about 5 of your videos as my dissertations lifeblood thank u for ur service
Although I admired the movie "Love Simon" overall, I thought it had some flaws. 1) They always emphasized how "normal" Simon and his life was, which I thought was a bit over-emphasized. Also, him having a perfect family, perfect friends, being a perfectly looking actor (just my opinion) makes it not as believable. Because when I came out, my life was anything but normal and I was anything but normal-looking as well. 2) Spoiler: Simon throughs his friends under the bus to keep his secret at first. So his friends were really mad, but within minutes they were all already at peace with each other again. That's kind of weird to me. 3) Simon falls in Love with "the only other gay kid at school" and they fall in love without even knowing how the other person looks like. Like... not even a picture. As romantic as it sounds, it's just not realistic. 4) The people surrounding Simon all reacted to his coming out in very (for storyline reasons) idolized ways. It's nice to think that the entire family and group of friends react so positively. But when I came out that was just not the case. Okay, that was like 11 years ago and I like to think that times have changed. But if the movie inspires young LGBT kids to come out, I want them to be careful and realize that this is a fabricated story, a movie, not real life. A movie where scripted characters act/react in idolized ways to fit a narrative. And you still can not guarantee, that everyone in your surroundings will/would react positively. So please be careful with that. 5) In the end, I still want to say that I liked the movie and felt very moved by it. I liked how they added humor to such a (still) touchy subject. Also, I loved that the character Simon was not necessarily struggling with the fact that he's gay. He accepted that. He was rather struggling with how to come out or when. That's already a big step in the right direction. Let's see, what future movies will bring us :)
THANK YOU so much for this video. I've had a hard time articulating my gripes with this movie but in the first 12 minutes of this video you've spelled it out so clearly and respectfully.
I hated Love, Simon. Simon was a cis gender privileged gay teen. The only problem he has is internalized homophobia and his ego. I found the "I Wanna With Somebody" sequence which ends with him saying "I'm not That gay" offensive, it felt like a slap in the face to gender nonconforming and femme guys. Simon's parents are almost unrealistically perfect in every way imaginable and of course Simon does not find the femme gay character attractive and eventually ends up with another cis gender gay character. Simon is the stereotypical "good gay" character. He conforms to gender norms, is financially well off and doesn't threaten the heterosexist status quo (and he's white).
Thank you for making this video! I read the book and saw the movie and I love parts of Love, Simon but I agree with you- we need to be able to criticize problematic aspects and discuss works openly, even and especially ones that involve our own community. I'm a strong believer in being able to criticize what we love and hold ourselves accountable in order to create the kind of media we want to see. You did a great job with this series, well done
I remember seeing Love, Simon in theatre with my school LGBT+ Club. When we left and got lunch, everyone was talking about how amazing the movie was and I was just like...eh... Not trying to ruin anyone else's enjoyment of the movie, but I personally didn't like it that much.
A white gay teen with internalized homophobia is living a normal life just like everyone else, starts talking online with another gay kid at school, tries to find the identity of their crush and then gets fucking blackmailed by a loser who threatens to publicly humiliate him and ruin his entire social life at school if he didn't help him get together with a girl he's never met or only met a few times (I can't remember) and has never shown any interest in him whatsoever. For some reason, he thought it would be a good idea to hijack a microphone and ask the girl out in front of the whole fucking stadium, and ends up humiliating himself and the girl in the process. To take the attention off him, he ends up leaking the emails anyway when his flimsy-ass plan backfires. The main character who just had their worst nightmare come true gets ostracized and abandoned by their friends even though he was being FUCKING BLACKMAILED. And the ending feels like it was literally thrown together in 5 minutes, the one guy he saw making out with a girl at the party that they purposefully led us to believe was just as ambiguous as anyone else, turns out to be the mystery person all along. Who also happens to be black and jewish as well as gay (how convenient and progressive!). And then everything goes back to normal and they live happily ever after, nobody's actions face any consequences, and all shitty behaviour is forgiven.
But you know, that's just my 2 cents.
I think this was a really thoughtful critique, and though I enjoyed the book (didn't see the movie), you really addressed some of the things that made me uncomfortable about this story, and helped me articulate why some plot points left me feeling a bit bitter. Just subscribed to your channel, keep up the great work!
You articulated all of my gripes with this movie perfectly.
Great video as always! A lot of very important stuff that are not talked about enough or are not talked with the nuance they call for
I didn't really like Love Simon when I watched it. I didn't know why, but I just couldn't feel anything for most of the characters. I think I understand why now. Everything just felt kind of unnatural, and I think it's unfair that his friends were /that/ angry at him. I wish that the story had been handled better.
wow I'm so thankful for seeing this video it is SO well made the quality is incredible so eye-opening
someone being critical of love, simon? I click.
i shared this series with my Queer Theory & Media module on my sociology degree. really helpful and accessible resource so thank you!!
Gay characters and situations can be flawed too, a character or situation doesn't have to be a perfect representation of how someone should come out or should act to be a good character or good scene or part of a good film
Yes, but there's a difference between 'imperfect' and 'tone deaf', and many LGBT+ stories are the latter. A bit more time spent with the writer/director placing themselves in the protagonist's shoes can fix this. The audience's experience can only improve when the right foundations are laid out, and the emotional build up is paced and appropriately acted upon. If the writing isn't lazy, then this shouldn't be a problem.
@@Lynn-ee9hq Exactly this.
I totally agree, but I think the issue is that the flaw is presented in a way that the audience understands it as such. Which is what the best movies are able to do imo.
It's fine that he is flawed, but his flaws arent really addressed. He gets blackmailed, which is not his fault. Okay, he lies to his friends, that sucked. Then he gets outed & bullied and his friends do nothing. Then he gets made fun of, owns his sexuality after being bullied and everybody likes him again. I know this film was about coming out, but Simon as a character doesn't really seem to learn any lessons. Is the lesson that coming out isn't that bad and you shouldn't lie to people? Because the movie seems to side with Simon's friends. I wish this film focused more on the relationship between him and the other gay character at school because then there actually could've been a lesson about Simon's own homophobia and how nobody is lesser for just being themselves. The film doesn't really go there when it probably should have.