Is LGBT History "Fake"?
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
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Is the queer history we read online real? Who are the historians and curators trying to preserve lgbt artefacts and stories for future generations as well as our own? Will our pride signs be studied in museums in 100 years time? I talked to Matthew Storey to find out!
Thank you so much to Historic Royal Palaces for sponsoring this video!
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I had volunteered for a while at the Canadian Lesbian and Gay Archives.
Some of the things that people generally wouldn't consider as being important that conserve a lot of information: street flyers, t-shirts, and event posters.
Emily Payeur where in Canada is the Canadian history museum? I’d love to visit it someday and see the flag.
Princess Caty it’s in Ottawa.
In Argentina we have the book "la historia de la homosexualidad en Argentina" With many photos, police records, letters and newspaper articles of the time.
The book begins in pre-Columbian times and ends in the present, highly recommended :D
@Black Knight Fool
Total nonsense. History isn't shared solely by blood. It can be shared by nationality, culture, vocation and religion too.
As for your ignorant hot takes on what homosexuality is and isn't, sit down honey and go back to watching your reactionary political propaganda.
@Black Knight Fool
Sweetie, settle with the gay panic bullshit, yeah? Trust me, no one here is going to hit on you. Ever.
What does support (or lack thereof) of the LGBTQ+ have anything to do with what we're talking about? Can't you defend your original positions?
Your thought process in a total mess.
@Black Knight Fool
You posted a comment, you got a reaction. This "unwanted attention" is just someone calling you honey more in a sarcastic than a flirty why. Same as when I call someone buddy to make male clear that they got something wrong and I wanna sit down with them and talk.
This isn't sexuell-harassment. No one hit on you, no one made sexist remarks. Stop claiming that someone harassed you when the just criticized your actions and the use of "honey" was used to sit you down and reflect on what you wrote and not to actually hit on you. Idk how you could ever think that Orthosia was hitting at you after all she told you was criticism.
Thanks BFF I will check that out ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
"forcibly obscured history"
I teared up not gonna lie. This is a topic that always cuts me deep, loss of history, and LGBT history in particular.
This was such a beautiful and thoughtful and kind way to approach this subject.
Also I'm grateful that you brought up the question of class and who gets to tell their story.
Thank you for this beautiful and informative video!
@Black Knight Fool
So you're saying there were no gay, bisexual or trans people before the acronym was coined? And that because these people probably didn't share a bloodline with any LGBTQ+ person today that appreciation for the sacrifices, horrors and achievements fought and lost throughout history can't be shared?
Are you daft?
I remember a lecture on Early Modern sexuality because, after going through the evidence that remained (largely accounts of criminal proceedings, preaching against homosexuality, homophobic writing, etc) the lecturer finished by saying words to the effect of: "But gay people still existed despite all society's efforts to destroy them. There's a human need for love and self expression that can can never be fully suppressed, even in the harshest regime."
And I was just there as a baby gay, hunched down in my seat as people filed out of the lecture hall, trying to pretend like I wasn't crying.
there was an LGBT display in dublin museum this year called the rainbow revolution it was absolutely beautiful it had all things belonging to famous LGBT heroes in irish history like rodger casement's coat 🥺
Uuuu Outlook Kiki hoo
I only know of one LGBTQ+ story from my families history, currently I have one cousin who is a gay man and another cousin on the other side of the family who is a trans woman. Prior to this there was no mention of LGBTQ+ activity at all in my families history, but there was one story that my grandfather (who passed away when I was young) told my Uncle who is not my blood relative but married my aunt. He told him that during the second world war he served on a ship, and there was a man serving on that ship who was believed to be gay. He then told my Uncle that the crew of the ship 'dealt' with that man. I'm afraid I don't know any more details than that, I'm afraid to ask to be honest. But I as a straight cis man am told over and over again mostly by other straight cis men that homosexuality is everywhere now, that it is being forced down our throats and the idea that LGBTQ+ people were ever treated badly in the past is a lie. If that's the case, why is it that the only story involving an LGBTQ+ person ever told in my family was the most horrific form of persecution imaginable and yet suddenly when the laws are changed and LGBTQ+ people are allowed to be free my family produces two LGBTQ+ people. What that tells me is that LGBTQ+ people have always been persecuted, always been silenced, always been erased and now that society has finally evolved for the better do we see that LGBTQ+ people were here all along in great numbers.
I'm currently completing my masters dissertation in ancient history, and this is something of an interesting topic in my area. For instance, we have famed authors like Sappho of Lesbos, who's poetry is truly remarkable and inspired the terms lesbian and sapphic. Of course for a few hundred years, historians denied that she was in anyway 'inappropriately' affectionate toward the women mentioned in her poetry. The whole, 'just good friends' thing. Likewise, there is some evidence that Virgil and Horace had a thing for each other, since references to one another in their poetry is...just adorable honestly (see Horace Odes 1.3). But their infatuation is vehemently denied by most classicists if you ask.
Then of course, there are the infamous emperors and their 'debaucheries.' Caligula definitely liked men, though his sexual exploits in general are depicted in sources as pretty caricatured, but hey maybe his was just kinky. More obscure is Elagabalus of the Severan dynasty. They liked to dress up in women's clothing, but referred to by their servants as 'empress,' and had more than one male favorite at court. It's hard to tell what of this is slander from later sources, as acting feminine was the worst thing a man could do in ancient Roman, or to what degree we can understand Elagabalus as having a different gender identity as we would understand it. Gender and sexuality are far less easily categorized in the ancient world, so saying someone 'was' gay, a lesbian, trans, or queer is sort of inaccurate. That said, these are all well document instances of potential queer history, that has often been dismissed or caught up in moralizing, since they tend to be among the 'debauched' elites of ancient Rome.
But getting to the those who didn't have clear representation is much harder. For instance, there are some inscriptions, particularly in Greece, or low class or even slave people who are buried with or writing epitaphs for a same sex partner. The language used is very similar to heterosexual couples and marriages, so it's clear they conceptualized their union in the same way. But again, there are few examples of this, and often they're hard to find since they have been classified over the centuries as being brother, sisters, or just good friends.
Elagabalus well for Ancient Greece it's obvious how homosexuality was a great part of Greece society, when studying ancient greece here in italy professors and books always mention how homosexual relationships were vital to ancient greece and how men fought together as a couple and died together when fighting certain wars. Homosexual love was often referred to as superior to love for women (as said by a speaker, i don't remember who, in the Symposium by Plato). Obviously in greece also pedophilia was a great part of society. As for Rome homosexuality wasn't as a big thing as in Ancient Greece but there sure were many important homosexual/bisexual men. For instance the poet Catullus or the emperor Hadrian.
Matt Dursse yes!
I want to study about it, i am gonna probably study classics and im queer :)
I think it's so important to talk about history because, just like monarchy, it's so legitimising. So much of the talk on trans and non-binary identities frames it as this newfangled invention, kids just wanting to be cool or quirky, and by putting it in this historical context we can say that no, this is a facet of the human experience which has always existed and needs recognition. I've seen a lot of growth in gay, lesbian and (to a lesser extent) bisexual history and it's great to see that and almost feel validated, and at a time in which many gender identities are just disbelieved it's so important to have this academic weight behind their existence.
The sadiest thing about us is that when we are representend in the history, that is made by people who tried to patologize or criminalize us. Maybe it means that we must to build our own history, but its very hard when we are talking about erasure.
I have one request and that is that we preserve a flannel, a snapback, a vest top and cuffed jeans.
A short while ago a spanish historian published a book about lesbian and bi women through history, "Señoras que se empotraron hace mucho" (which is roughly translated as "women who had sex a long time ago") by Christina Domenech. I read it recently and it's really good! great video btw❤️❤️
Thanks for the book recommendation! I've been learning Spanish for a few years now, guess this will be the first Spanish book I'll buy~
That is the greatest name for a history book I have ever heard.
@@RunePonyRamblings Im not gay, but we should learn about gay history.
This is such an interesting conversation.I love history in general but it frustrates me for reasons discussed in the video (it's filtered through privilege and what people were allowed to be literate).It saddens me how little working class lgbt history has been preserved.
Two of the few definite historical trans men I know about were doctors (one of which was the brother of a baron) and there's this really fascinating BBC documentary about trans women from the 1970s.It's amazing but shows a limited perspective because if I'm remembering it right all the women were extremely middle class.
@Black Knight Fool sir this is a wendy's
@Black Knight Fool
He never called it "his defining history". He just called it part of history as in, they existed in the past as well but weren't allowed to be open about it.
If we stop talking about history we don't share ancestors within, why should we learn about Asian and African culture? Why should we ever learn anything about history if not a singel ancestor of our family was related to a historical person or event.
This doesn't make sense. Learning from other people's history is important and creates understanding how things develop over time. Your argument with muslims is lacking as well. It would be good to learn about the heritage of other religions that you don't belive in and there is nothing wrong with learning about it.
Another thing it is lacking in is that people mentioned LGBTQ people of western societies, which actually makes them share a culturally past.
Came for cool history, stayed for the cute historian dude.
Maki Gómez The thirst is strong with this one
That’s kinda gay ngl /j
Wait is that gay humor? It too is stupid.
loved this! it reminded me to that ace history masterpost that asexual blogs on tumblr roll around every now and then with a bunch of links to books and articles and quotes. even if there's a chance of mistakes like the photo you mentioned, i still think it's so cool how the internet is helping up gather lgbt+ history in one specific post or blog for everyone to research.
asexual pride and a doctor who fan? are you me? I don't know much about aro or ace history (people can always erase them both as they just weren't interested in dating or whatever) but I always think that Queen Elizabeth I (the "virgin queen") may be aro/ace/aspec and it'd be pretty interesting to find out about.
I go to a historically women's college, so a lot of the college museum archives consists of lesbian and queer art, articles, activist materials, etc. dating back decades. Unfortunately since I'm only a first year and there's a pandemic, I've only been able to look at limited materials from the digital archives. It's so fascinating because these are pieces of history from queer people who were my age, and who were just these average college students existing and interacting in a different time.
Love the video. And I just have to say how great it is that British people pronounce "again" as "a-gay-n"
Just the southerners, love. Everyone else says “agenn”
I'm from Germany and the only times we talked about LGBTQ+ people was 1. when we learned about HIV (which I only remember as a negative experience because it felt like anything other than heterosexuality is wrong) and 2. when we talked about Sappho in Latin class. Learning about Sappho was so meaningful to me, even though we only talked about her for a few minutes. Back then I didn't realize I was bi, but I remember how moved I was when learning about her.
Did you done Latinum?
Will there be captions/subtitles on this video? I have auditory processing disorder and I love this topic but I just can't understand the video ☹️
Subtitles are up! You can watch the video now
@@boldanabrasevic3020 thank you!
One of your best videos yet. Smart, engaging, informed, honest and very interesting. The tone is also also has a maturity that avoids being preachy, while maintaining gravitas of the subject. Plus hair and high waisted slacks are AMAZING.
So interesting! I love history, although it frustrates me to no end that in many cases we won't ever find out if someone was actually queer or not. I find this very interesting when it comes to archaeological finds. Sometimes they find a female skeleton who had a traditionally male burial and I never see the question raised whether they could've been a trans man that was accepted as such. No, it's always "oh, this must've been a female warrior and therefore she got buried like a man, to honour her status as a warrior". And yes, maybe that's the case, but maybe there were cultures or time periods or even just families that accepted trans people for who they were. Or that grave of the two egyptian men who were buried together and historians claim they must be brothers or very close friends when it was customary to be buried with your partner, not your siblings or friends. Sure, maybe they were friends or brothers after all, but maybe these two men were accepted as lovers where they lived and their families wanted them to be together in the afterlife as well. There have always been queer people and there have always been straight and cis people who were supportive too (or at least trying to be)!
Thank you for this comment. ❤️
I write in a diary for 2 reasons and one of them is so that people know what it was like being gay in 2020 (if you were wondering the other reason is in case anyone ever wants to turn my life into a musical like Hamilton)
For future generations: there are some organisations recording current events for this purpose. From my bi activism world, for example there is a twitter account of bi history and museum of LGBT history that has resources to include bi things - other organisers I know have sent things to them like old banners, signs, business cards, flyers etc. If anyone reading this organises or does notable things or everyday things for the communities here that tells the story of who we are and how life is for us today, please do consider providing something to one of these archives (there are at least a couple in the UK).
Hey Rowan, it's Ricky from In Wonderland and IT GETS BETTER UK , your videos are always amazing! every time you leave us speechless !!! thank you for everything you are doing for the community 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
Aren't we all glad Anne Lister's descendant who cracked the code in her diaries decided against destroying them against his friend's advice and instead just hid them? Thank you, John Lister, for giving us Gentleman Jack!
Something that really saddens me as an asexual is that our history is even more obscured than many other lgbt histories. I have no doubt there were individuals across history that lacked sexual attraction, but I cant think of any way to find those individuals who likely went unlabeled. How many do you think just got married, had sex anyways because that was what was expected of them? How many people were pathologized or saw themselves as broken? How many, because of historical attitudes towards sex, never knew their experiences were out of the ordinary?
Awesome video, you had some great qs and I felt I learnt a lot 🤗
Thanks Aishah!
This comment section is wonderful and illuminating and just proof that the LGBTQ+ community and their allies are lovely
The production value on this is INSANE. Wait till it blows up.
I found this video really interesting. It's difficult to get good knowledge about silenced stuff, but I think it's important to be true to reality, even it's more difficult to get to that knowledge.
Thx for the great interview and insight into our history! I'd like to further recommend docu mini series like "Book of Queer", "Queer for Fear" and "Queerstralia", not just because they're important infotainment imo but mainly to see them renewed for another season;o)
We've been learning about LGBT+ history at school this week 😀
😯 Where do you live?! In Texas I've never heard of learning LGBT history in school.
@@kelseybisset88 I live in Scotland!
@@mhenderson7673 I live in Yorkshire but I'm originally scottish too!
as a bisexual woman in a relationship with a bisexual man, I can not stop gushing about your videos to my boyfriend. He is very interrested in watching them himself as soon as he finds the time :) (We can't watch together because it's a long-distance relationship)
I don't if it was the music, the talk, the things happening or what, but i just started to cry, happy crying. I didn't know about this work
I didn't even know the Stonewall Riots happened, or much about LGBTQ+ at all, when I went to school-- and it was only a few years ago. I had to dig through the internet to even find out Asexuality existed. If you're interested in learning about LGBT+ history around Stonewall Riots in New York, the most thorough research and accounts are in the book Stonewall by David Carter. At the end of the day, we're the keepers of our own history. But hearing that schools are starting to include LGBTQ+ history gives me hope for our future.
Im so glad that you put a subtitle in the video. Your accent is very difficult to me to understand, but now i can really apreciatte the video. Thanks! You are amazing!!
I have no issues understanding her accent, but because I often watch videos while waiting in queues and the like I don't watch them with sound on, only subtitles, and thus I am super grateful for this
Thank you for this video, its important to talk about queer history in the same critical way we talk about overall history, even if I'd like to believe every wholesome queer historical stories on tumblr to be true. Your channel over all is really great!
I would like to add that I got this notification seconds after my teacher said in sex ed that we most likely have *homosexuals* in our circles and shouldn't be homophobic, that together with the actual video made my entire day
Thanks a lot for making this video, it's super interesting.
The whole problem with having little proof wether or not a historical figure was queer is why i love love love Gentleman Jack which is based on the diaries of Anne Lister. She wrote about her relationships with women and her thoughts on her own sexuality in code and hid the diaries and through luck they survived.
This was really interesting! I’m so glad that Royal Houses partnered with you for this. I really wish I could attend some of those tours.
I love this channel. As a 40 budding queer, I learn a lot.
This video, this channel, will hopefully survive as queer history... For future queers to review
Hi hello, gay Christian here. One of the things that encouraged my stance of "gay is okay" was me hearing more about queer history and seeing how much gets swept under the rug and forgotten. Like, just centuries of being in the closet, either forcibly or after the fact. Really made me question the whole "no positive representation of gay people in the bible- it's All condemnation" idea. Like, I'm straight up side eyeing David and Jonathan or the centurion and his "servant", maybe others. Who knows? I just wouldn't be surprised if we straightwashed some couples for a couple millennium is all.
I love your videos so much, I think they offer so much information into queer history and I love all the content I’ve gotten from you. But I just can’t get over the game being called “Chinese Whispers”. I know you’d never intentionally say anything to offend people, and I googled the term right after I heard it so I know it’s more of a regional thing, but it just felt weird to hear. Where I’m from we call that game Telephone, and I’d never even heard it called “Chinese Whispers” before I heard it here. Could you maybe talk about it some time, and then maybe do a video on the way queer POC are portrayed in media vs their white counterparts? It’s a topic I’d love to know more about and I think with your research and open-mindedness it would be a great video.
I've been thinking of my own artifacts. I kept a diary for many years through my boy crazy teen phase, my coming out as a lesbian phase, my young adult dating life. But when my relationship with my wife began, I stopped keeping a diary, because I could tell all my thoughts to her instead.
it may seem small but i firmly believe all of us just existing online, making our spaces, trading stories, however small our individual lives, the least we can do for each other is to leave a testimony, who knows how much it could mean to someone in the future, the way we are overjoyed ourselves for crumbs of validation, may we have each other
Thank you for making this video! There is so much history that is either forgotten or lost through out time.
LGBTQ+ people's history is of course unique to the community, but it must also be noted that LGBTQ+ history is ultimately a part of human history as a whole.
A friend and I were JUST talking about this! Thank you for doing this video 😘🌈
This is an excellent video, thank you.
However I have a small comment on something you might not realize: the placement of the Tumblr comments at the beginning of the video is *exactly* where the captions go in the mobile UA-cam app. What this means is that for somebody watching from their phone (I'm guessing the same would apply for most tablets as well), it's impossible to read the Tumblr comments while having the captions on. I thought I should mention this so you could maybe consider a different placement for text screenshots if you use them in a video in the future, because I know you care a lot about your videos being accessible.
19:44
this makes me think of the letters between Alexander Hamilton and John Laurens
I love the way so much forgotten and ignored women's history has recently surfaced, because minorities have usually historically been the next ones to gain recognition and validation. It makes the future seem more hopeful and exciting. There are likely countless queer artifacts that have just not surfaced yet, because the atmosphere and attitudes are not accepting enough yet. Hopefully we will see more of them in the future.
"What objects around you express who you are"
Me, an asexual: "Uh... the Merlin nendoroid figure? Next to the knockoff Hatsune Miku."
me, a lesbian: “definitely the rubber ducky earrings...or the picture of adora and catra on my wall...”
This was such an amazing discussion, i discovered your channel a few days ago and i'm honestly so glad that i did, thank you very very much for doing what you do
5:08 Agreed with this young man - It's so important to preserve heritage. Keep tradition alive.
It’s nice to be seen in history, for once.
I know I'm four years late to the video AND shit is hitting the fan right now with books bans, which is what I'd put into the time capsule.
Every. Book. They got banned and were trying to ban would be in the time capsule.
In print and on an electronic device that would, hopefully, still be usable in the future.
Great conversation!! What a wonderful video ☺️
"there will be events going on across 2020" I'm sorry, I lolled. Your video is itself an artifact due to that line
Oh shit 😳
Ok so John laurens and Alexander Hamilton. it’s a whole thing over if they were acctually gay/ bi or not but the letters are kinda O _ o and they aren’t the gayest, Hamilton’s son destroyed those (coincidentally named John after laurens) but yeah, That’s a pretty good piece of LGBT history.
It especially gets messy because of how a lot of lgbt historical figures were horrible people (most historical figures in general did questionable or downright horrific things).People want to put LGBT historical figures on a pedestal because it's validating and powerful to find people like you but it's impossible because people are complicated and shitty sometimes.Anne Lister is a good example.
Oh man, those tours look like they were so interesting. I really wish I could have gone!
This was fantastic, I thought your questions were so insightful and interesting - and the answers equally so!
An excellent video as always, so thoughtful and interesting. Thank you Rowan for such high-quality content!
Great video Rowan!
Thank you - glad you enjoyed it!
This is such an interesting conversation, thanks for the video!
I'll be in London in April so now I have some new tour ideas 🏳️🌈
He seemed so nice. You are a great interviewer.
The way I began learning queer history of my country was through a book titled "México se escribe con J" and then, as it sparked my curiosity, I searched for more books on those topics. But yeah, I wasn't taught about any queer history in school.
New fave channel, I love your logical
Analysis and impartiality
your videos are always so thoughtful and important wowowowow
Fun Fact From Wikipedia: Before The Spanish Arrive, Certain South American Tribes Believed That Lesbians Were Magical.
Not only lesbians. Actually, these terms are modern, they did not exist during those times. There were other terms in indigenous languages that may be translated as 'non-binary' (meaning outside the two-gender heteronormative thing) or 'third gender' or something like that. And they were well respected in society. These alternate sexualities were simply facts of life. Unfortunately, most of these traditions exist as oral history now. However, I feel greater hope these days because oral histories are gradually being considered 'history'.
@@sahelichowdhury Very Interesting, I Was Simply Stating What I Remembered From The Wikipedia Articles, So I'm Sure There's Plenty More I Didn't Remember.
@@rateeightx Everything is not in Wikipedia, friend. Still, I am glad some things are there, and there are people like you who read and remember. Sometimes I feel like going to the page and adding/editing, but then they would ask for sources, and where are the sources! These are just oral traditions now, while our societies are still machista and homophobic. Really unfortunate.
Not that it's very important but I love Rowan's outfit at 5:00
I saw some videos on Stonewall and it turns out, it's mostly mythology and not as reported!
I find most history is mythology, hell, most people's stories are made up. I see that happen over and over!
I have no idea how I ended up watching this but it's legitimately really interesting and deserves more views. I also know that some dipshits love to mention the hair but it unironically looks pretty nice lol.
Whoa! Textbooks are not an absolute source of accuracy by any means...
They are used for indoctrination tho, if anyone is represented wouldn't diversity be benifital?
My textbooks (German, Germany) were very aware of the lies printed previously and had dedicated sources/units showing/critique the practice but the only mention of quer live referenced nazi victims.
PLEASE talk about diary of a future president. it's a kid's show with latinx and lgbtq+ representation and it needs to be renewed. it's on Disney+
i enjoyed this alot, thank you rowan :)
Thank you so much for this video!!!
wait now i’m sad because i saw that photo with that caption a few weeks ago
you're a really great interviewer
"I would display queer people's clothes" you're getting a lot of jackets with 10 lbs of pins on them
This made me cry good tears.
Rowan, this hairstyle looks so good! 😍
This isn't a piece of genuine LGBT history. It's just "a post"...
Always ask... where is the source.
I LOVE THIS!
Excellent video and message. Thank you
A new video? Fuck yes. Relatively new to your channel and I want you to know... I’m here. Lol
love this video, thank you so much for making this :)
bro we all can be making history rn that's crazy
I would put the rainbow bracelet my girlfriend gave me on our first trip. I don't take it off unless I have to. Its so special to me because its this little thing that every day reminds me of how much I love her and how lovely we are together
I would add videos like these
ur hair looks really nice
Thank you this is great
It is possible that there were same sex marriages in Australia in that era as same sex marriages were legal in Australia until the 90s when the then PM John Howard redefined it as "between a man and a woman". It was only changed back in 2016.
Also interested in this topic watch Pose it’ll change ur life
Well, if we're gonna preserve our generation's queer history, we better start vacuum sealing our Destroy Boys albums
A wonderful interview.
That caption on the photo of the LGBT couple marrying in 1950s really bummed me out because if they, the couple, had tried to marry back then they would of been thrown in jail or put in an insane asylum. It is sad that people have such a disregard for history or just do not know it, so they make it up.
I think Piers Gaveston loved Edward II, but I think Hugh Despenser the younger used the King for power and pretty much ended up ruining Edward's life and Queen Isabella's life, King Edward and Isabella's children's lives, every bodies life in England really.. I could make rant video on Hugh Despenser the younger.
Omg this background track feels like Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper will jump in any minute but it never happens.
I really liked this, thank you.
0:05. That’s Audrey Hepburn in black.
Dibs on cataloguing the cottagecore movement for future historians.
I feel horrible for saying this but the way the dude would be like, “ 𝑔𝑎𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔𝑠 𝑔𝑎𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔𝑠” and then he’d switch to “ 𝑔𝑎𝑦 𝑡ℎINGS GAY THINGS 𝑔𝑎𝑦 THINGS” absolutely killed me