A 10 frame jab is equally as unreactable as a 3 frame jab. So no, not everything. The difference between speeds of fighting games does not have the implications most people think. What happens most often is the quality of decisions decreases as speed increases. In the Tekken community, people memorize each move that is -10, each move that is -11, each move that is -12, each move that is -13, etc. because they have more time to react to the situation and come up with the most optimal punish for that move. The game becomes very tech-based, and game knowledge contributes heavily to your success rate. In the KoF community, those numbers exist, and they do matter - there's value in memorizing which moves are -4 and which moves are -5 and which moves are -6, etc. but that's not what people focus on because it's not really feasible to optimize every single punish. Part of it is because most characters don't get significantly better punishes at each frame interval - even in Tekken, there are characters that skip -12 punishment entirely, and use their -11 punish against both -11 and -12 moves. Part of it is because, even if a character does get a better punish at the next frame interval, the difference in reward is insubstantial. In Tekken, the difference between a -13 and -15 punish is unbelievably high. That dynamic doesn't exist in KoF - a 5-frame close heavy punch is your best punish in most cases, and most characters get the same combo from their 3-frame jab anyway, so people just always use their 3-frame jab - because the developers didn't choose to take that route. Part of it is the input leniency. Tekken has a billion years of input buffer, and KoF XV only has a few frames. KoF XIII has zero. So KoF players value the consistency of using their fastest attacks to punish and frame trap and perform link combos because it's physically more difficult to optimize that way. But the largest part of it is the mental stack. If a game is fast, it's not reasonable to have your frame-perfect punish ready every time - or, if you do have your punishes perfect, then the rest of your gameplan is stale and breachable because you're so focused on that one thing. In Tekken, there's not really that much to react to other than Block- and Whiff-Punishment. In KoF, you have so much more... but this response is already too lengthy. Hopefully this answers your question.
@@Moqlnkn Thank you, as always! Oh! One more question! Do you think there might be a way to extract frame date from fighting games released on consoles ??? I would love to have frame data for all Tekkens, SoulCalibur & all? Do you think it's possible to make mods for KOF XIII PC to show hitboxes & frame counter & frame data? Would love that to have for the GOG version ...
@@sneharashmi7553 Everything on PC is "possible," yes. I'm currently working on an old Wii fighting game using the Dolphin emulator, trying to list all the frame data by inputting things one frame at a time. It takes a whole day to confirm one character's data using this method, but it's basically guaranteed to be accurate, and doesn't require any knowledge of how the game is coded. It's also theoretically possible to dig into the game's code and find the place where it stores a character's attack data, and generate a frame data chart based on the data. The problem with that is we don't have the SOURCE code - what the developers actually typed out - because it's all been COMPILED into machine code for the sake of speed. For example, there's no reason for the console to know the names of variables - it only needs to know what the variables do - so just looking at the code of a game, as it is given to us, will not be readable, because all of the variables will be unnamed. In general, trying to sort through compiled code by hand is a mess. Finally, it's also theoretically possible to DECOMPILE a game. They recently did this with Ocarina of Time. The process of decompiling is taking the code of the game, actually sifting through all the unreadable crap, and re-writing the source code from scratch. Chances are, you'll pick different variable names from what they were originally, but that doesn't matter - it'll be as readable and understandable as you make it. Getting a game to this state is amazing because it makes the game modifiable as if you were the game developer. For example, in Ocarina of Time, we now have "Ship of Harkinian" which lets the game run any framerate, built-in item randomization, Link's tunic color randomization, music randomization, importing new models and music, bug fixes, and more. So yes, getting frame data / hitbox viewer is "possible" in any game, as long as you can play it on a PC. Every game is different, though, and will require a different level of work to get to that point. If the developers have a variable for toggling on and off hitboxes, but it was never supposed to be accessed by us, then all we need to do is dig through the code and find that one variable. If they didn't use that variable, then we'd need to construct hitbox display ourselves, which means we'd also need to find hitboxes, distinguish them from other boxes, and learn how to render things in the game on top of everything else, and probably more. Modding consoles is possible but a lot different. I currently don't even own a console, so I don't know the current state of console modding, for consoles that don't have PC emulators yet.
When you go from a fast game like KoF & Marvel to Tekken, does everything feel slow & reactable ???
A 10 frame jab is equally as unreactable as a 3 frame jab. So no, not everything.
The difference between speeds of fighting games does not have the implications most people think. What happens most often is the quality of decisions decreases as speed increases. In the Tekken community, people memorize each move that is -10, each move that is -11, each move that is -12, each move that is -13, etc. because they have more time to react to the situation and come up with the most optimal punish for that move. The game becomes very tech-based, and game knowledge contributes heavily to your success rate.
In the KoF community, those numbers exist, and they do matter - there's value in memorizing which moves are -4 and which moves are -5 and which moves are -6, etc. but that's not what people focus on because it's not really feasible to optimize every single punish.
Part of it is because most characters don't get significantly better punishes at each frame interval - even in Tekken, there are characters that skip -12 punishment entirely, and use their -11 punish against both -11 and -12 moves.
Part of it is because, even if a character does get a better punish at the next frame interval, the difference in reward is insubstantial. In Tekken, the difference between a -13 and -15 punish is unbelievably high. That dynamic doesn't exist in KoF - a 5-frame close heavy punch is your best punish in most cases, and most characters get the same combo from their 3-frame jab anyway, so people just always use their 3-frame jab - because the developers didn't choose to take that route.
Part of it is the input leniency. Tekken has a billion years of input buffer, and KoF XV only has a few frames. KoF XIII has zero. So KoF players value the consistency of using their fastest attacks to punish and frame trap and perform link combos because it's physically more difficult to optimize that way.
But the largest part of it is the mental stack. If a game is fast, it's not reasonable to have your frame-perfect punish ready every time - or, if you do have your punishes perfect, then the rest of your gameplan is stale and breachable because you're so focused on that one thing. In Tekken, there's not really that much to react to other than Block- and Whiff-Punishment. In KoF, you have so much more... but this response is already too lengthy. Hopefully this answers your question.
@@Moqlnkn Thank you, as always! Oh! One more question! Do you think there might be a way to extract frame date from fighting games released on consoles ??? I would love to have frame data for all Tekkens, SoulCalibur & all?
Do you think it's possible to make mods for KOF XIII PC to show hitboxes & frame counter & frame data? Would love that to have for the GOG version ...
@@sneharashmi7553 Everything on PC is "possible," yes. I'm currently working on an old Wii fighting game using the Dolphin emulator, trying to list all the frame data by inputting things one frame at a time. It takes a whole day to confirm one character's data using this method, but it's basically guaranteed to be accurate, and doesn't require any knowledge of how the game is coded.
It's also theoretically possible to dig into the game's code and find the place where it stores a character's attack data, and generate a frame data chart based on the data. The problem with that is we don't have the SOURCE code - what the developers actually typed out - because it's all been COMPILED into machine code for the sake of speed. For example, there's no reason for the console to know the names of variables - it only needs to know what the variables do - so just looking at the code of a game, as it is given to us, will not be readable, because all of the variables will be unnamed. In general, trying to sort through compiled code by hand is a mess.
Finally, it's also theoretically possible to DECOMPILE a game. They recently did this with Ocarina of Time. The process of decompiling is taking the code of the game, actually sifting through all the unreadable crap, and re-writing the source code from scratch. Chances are, you'll pick different variable names from what they were originally, but that doesn't matter - it'll be as readable and understandable as you make it. Getting a game to this state is amazing because it makes the game modifiable as if you were the game developer. For example, in Ocarina of Time, we now have "Ship of Harkinian" which lets the game run any framerate, built-in item randomization, Link's tunic color randomization, music randomization, importing new models and music, bug fixes, and more.
So yes, getting frame data / hitbox viewer is "possible" in any game, as long as you can play it on a PC. Every game is different, though, and will require a different level of work to get to that point. If the developers have a variable for toggling on and off hitboxes, but it was never supposed to be accessed by us, then all we need to do is dig through the code and find that one variable. If they didn't use that variable, then we'd need to construct hitbox display ourselves, which means we'd also need to find hitboxes, distinguish them from other boxes, and learn how to render things in the game on top of everything else, and probably more.
Modding consoles is possible but a lot different. I currently don't even own a console, so I don't know the current state of console modding, for consoles that don't have PC emulators yet.
@@Moqlnkn Thank You for the elaborate response! What motivates you though, clearing doubts of knowledge seekers like us ???
@@sneharashmi7553 I like doing it. Explaining why I like doing it is impossible.