Street Fighter Pros Debate The Most 𝗖𝗢𝗡𝗧𝗥𝗢𝗩𝗘𝗥𝗦𝗜𝗔𝗟 Topics
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 лис 2024
- Street Fighter Esports Legends Face Off: Justin Wong vs MenaRD.
A hard hitting debate with two FGC Esports legends, @MenaRD1 Evo Japan champion, and @jwonggg eight-time Evo champion, hosted by commentator @TastySteve !
Next up with Evo: Evo will make its European debut with Evo France in Nice, France from October 10th to the 12th. In 2026, another new event will join the lineup: Evo Singapore.
#playstation #streetfighter #esports
*Street Fighter 4 - Who you got: MenaRD or Justin Wong?*
Wong 10-4
Wong 10-2
I love Mena but this one goes to Justin. Can't fight him in SF3 and 4.
Menard 🦙🔥
the wazler
MenaRD: "You only said SF, but I'll even beat him at Marvel."
Justin's face: You want a refund?
The man puts the FUN in reFUNd
LMAO...🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂 hahaaha
🤣🤣🤣
Someone needs to make a documentary about John Choi. Apparently that year he won both, his dad was in the hospital and was about to skip. But his dad said to go and win it
The one and only Choiboy who won two championships in a single EVO tournament, against all odds.
What a legend. Straight out of a Rocky film.
The number of FGC legends who have said that John Choi will pickup any SF and whoop them with just fireball and DP is too damn high.
As someone who was not part of the FGC during the early years of EVO, I'd love to hear more about the those days and the people in it.
True story ???? Because I was there in 2008 when he won cvs2 and 2x evo tournament 😮
Using the EVO moment for Justin's gameplay in his intro is fucked up 😂
Profound sadness
And they using that footage as if he's winning, when actually he got fucked up bad at that particular round.
Let's go Justin
yeah but when he talked about the moment, was really great, he said some really good stuff, and really understands how significant that moment is and appreciates it, and can joke about it, he is not still salty and it's great to see
Yup, these organizers are wack at trying to be funny.
Don't let that be a joke and fade away. I wanna see That Money Match in SF 4 and 3rd Strike. Make it happen!
For real. Everyone does. They need to have them play after a call out like that.
@@johnbutler2780 Yea they should of played in thIs episode Mena was ready to throw down! He wanted all the Smoke
@@TKTriesit ya. Idk tho bro. It’s stf4 not 6. let alone 3rd strike. Meta has zero chance of randomly playing 3rd strike for the first time and beating Justin tho. idk about 4. Justin gettin old but Justin isn’t one to be overly confident. If he put a grand up I feel like he would win. he didn’t want to play 5 or 6 lol.
@@johnbutler2780 I know, thats what would make it interesting, Mena Is so good at 6 and 5. He answered Justin Wong way to quick when Justin Said Play me for that grand, He was like lets go. So i know he wouldnt just say it if he didnt think he could stand a chance, and We all know how good Jwong is at SF4 but we never saw Mena play 4 (at least i havent) So it would be Hype if we get this match.
@@TKTriesit yes! I haven’t either. Justin prob wins in “ wazzler” form for sure tho. lol. Marvel vs capcom 2. Anyhow yes I agree with you. Justin is older now. Mena is kind of at his prime. Be so fun to watch.
The Wazzler came out swinging in this one
Mena got him right where it hurts lmfao. He went IN lmfao
People forget he’s from New York
Who is The Wazzler? I don't understand.
@@a_very_burnt_steak The Wazzler is Justin Wong's online handle, who recently became notorious for smoking everyone online in MvC2.
The Wazzler came out to wizzle on him
Mena is beating Justin in SFV and SF6. Justin is beating Mena in every other fighting game every made
Justin was great in sfv, he even beat prime infiltration and punk
Arguable with sf5
@@TheShadowFireYoshi He didn't win basically any tourneys in SFV, he was washed in the last half of SFIV.
Mena is smoking Justins boots on 5 and 6 without a doubt, but yeah Justin ftw on every other game
@@slugbones he won a ton of tournaments in SFV, he was the original Karin and only Infiltration and Tokido had more CPT points. SF4, idk what your meaning of being washed is, if Justin was washed then all of America was washed in the last half lol
The change in Mena’s face when Wong said put a rack on sf4 lmao
Mena can't beat him at SF4. And SF3 would be 10/0.
@@duxnihilo I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in these comments. Jwong was washed during the last 3 or so years of SF4, he won basically nothing. I've never seen Mena play SF4 but I wouldn't count him out.
@@slugbonesif you never played sf4 you'll get mop by the mechanics and heavy options selects. With 0 experience in sf4 yeaaah I doubt it.
Of course his face changed, dude needs money. He ain’t won shit in awhile lol
@@slugbones just takes longer to warm up the skills with age. He could do it if he REALLLY was about it. Wong has a crazy mental stack
Bro locked the fuck in when he heard one thousand dollars lmao.
10
@@DeathDasein10 for 3rd strike, 1 for sf4
Gamers are usually broke but the few
This should be a round table discussion from all the worlds great FGC community members... Cause the video is 🔥
🔥
@@playstationesportsplz make more like this
@@playstationesports Get Mango and HBox on this ASAPPPP
All MF Day!!
I love this. Putting JWong with someone who’s ready to trash talk is always gonna be gold lol. He definitely is chill with most folks but when he knows they can take it and dish it back out, that’s peak Wazzling haha
Legit justin is goku of fighting games
That intro is so fire
"This is MenaRD" 1x EVO Champion
Then it shows Jwong with x8 lmao
They did Mena dirty, bro won two Capcom Cups.
Mena won EVO japan in one of the most stacked EVO of all time and for mainline street fighter game, just a difference when you win any other title for EVO. But Jwong winning 9x EVO for multiple titles is just unheard of, GOATED behavior. So dont frame it as 1x evo champ is nothing if you have 9x evo champ. And yeah capcom cup doesn't hold as much merit or legacy as evo because capcom cup format is so whack and it's more of the monetary side of things.
@@qoharjamalhaqy526 he also solo'd the finals of that one team tournament. he went through 5 men by himself
@@qoharjamalhaqy526I would argue that Capcom holds just as much legacy because of the vastly larger prize pool
@@beam5655 but the second Capcom Cup had lots of undeserved spots, most of the best players couldn't even compete as lower-rank regions got those spots instead...from online tournaments.
Bless whoever assembled this trio.
Can we get Xiao Hai & Punk next?
It might be tough with Xiao Hai's English level for this back and forth
Even with awkward english, Xiaohai can still roast punk. Let them have this too 😂
@@CrazyLikeChris 1/2 the debate in English, 1/2 the debate in Mandarin 😂
And Hollywood Rob as the commentator bwahaha
@@CrazyLikeChris bring the TRANSLATOR!!!!!!
this would have been complete if they actually played that sf4 match.
theyre definitely gonna play
Give them a second, that’s gonna make everybody money!
MENARD's intro: when he won
Justin Wong's intro: Evo moment 37
That was diabolical bro😂😂😂😂
Holy crap this is quality FGC content!!!!! MOAR MOAR!!!!
Think of all the potential future guests they could have. Who could be paired with Punk to create a fiery debate?
@@001mrshy depending on how spicy you really want it to get: i say either nuckledu....or Xiao hai.
This is so pure. Gloves are off but they all laughing. FGC is awesome.
I agree! The FGC is such a great community. At the end of the day, it’s all love..
Props to TastySteve and whoever picked him for the job, I can't imagine a better host for this
I like Steve but he comes off as a buffoon at times. Staring contest? Really? I think yipes would be a better host.
@@OldChanCharlie Yipes is great too, but in this casual daytime-TV kinda setting, I think Steve's style fits a little better. He's a bit more like a game-show host with slightly cheesy jokes and what not than Yipes. Hell, the FGC and fighting games themselves are all full of buffonary. That's part of the fun. Yipes is at his best hosting matches between rivals IMO. Be good to see him get an episode.
Yipes a legend but Steve is perfect for this.
Im glad Steve getting the recognition he deserve he’s definitely one of the best hosts
Mike ross
Justin is right. I liked fighting games growing up, but I would NEVER have taken them seriously or watched them seriously if not for seeing Moment #37 on early early UA-cam/Google Video, and I know many people feel the same way seeing it to this day. Even if you don't FULLY understand what's going on in that clip, you KNOW it's otherworldly what Daigo did in that moment.
Spot on. I played SFA3 and like MvC1+2 among others growing up but that moment created a lifetime passion for the FGC within myself.
Excellent summation. 👍
Jwong is a savage with that trash talking but MenaRD is the PERFECT counterpart for a video like this with his aggressive attitude. I can't see it with Punk, Daigo, Tokido, etc... What a trio!!
This is not a face off, this is a love letter to the FGC.
Man 👊🏾❤
For real
Dope video. Personally, I don't care about who wins the debate. Just having two legends chop it up is enough for me. Do more!
If you guys ever do this again please do Punk vs Sanford Kelly the amount of trash talk between the two would be iconic
This is a golden idea
I love this. Putting JWong with someone who’s ready to trash talk is always gonna be gold lol. He definitely is chill with most folks but when he knows they can take it and dish it back out, that’s peak Wazzler. Mena is so clearly “that guy” and can definitely give it right back and it’s the best version of FGC trash talk
Also, even though moment 37 had JWong as the guy taking the L, if it wasn’t a “do or die” comeback moment, it wouldn’t be the same.
10k moneymatch! MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!
Throw in CABA vs Knuckledu $10k as well 😂😂😂
BOOK IT VINCE!!!
Do it!😂
What a compliment! Daigo is the Beast, Mena is the Bull. Great line.
This is quality content lmao we need more of these.
This is FIRE lmfaooo
They may not look like athletes, but that's one hell of a sportsmanship they're showing here.
This reminded me of Kobe and Jordan trash talking each other on the court but praising each other in interviews (they also throw jabs and indulge in hypotheticals, but real recognize real). Of course they're going to be competitive and want to puff their chest out, but the best of the best usually have a mutual respect for each other
Because they aren't athletes 😂
I think you need to look up the definition of athlete
@@JJ-Toreddiethat’s literally the irony… they’re not athletes but they’re showcasing SPORTSmanship
Fighting games are some of the best games to watch and helped games reinforce the idea that games are entertaining as Esports! They do play a sport so of course they have sportsmanship! True champs here!
"It depends on the game" "I'm talking street fighter" Thanks moderator. That really narrowed it down.
This was godlike. I need to see more of these convos happen officially, maybe introduce a viewer voting poll alongside the questions as to the pros.
that was such a nice video damn I love the energy and vibes of all of them, having the new and oldschool as well as TastySteve for the commentary, damn amazing video!
I honestly didn't even know ps had an esports channel lmao; but this video is good! thanks for this
I love Mena. I swear I do. I always root for him. I got Justin in nearly every game against anybody. He's the GOAT.
Nearly every game against anybody? He's mostly a SF and MvC guy
@@omegaweapon116 If you follow him a little you'd know that's not true. Plays a bunch of jank games, as well as any new game coming out (mk, Tekken etc). His general sense of how to play fighting games is nr1. So even if he doesn't play a game, it wouldn't take him long to start beating veterans in said game.
@@jairveldhuis7188 You said in nearly every game against anybody. He'll lose to a lot of Japanese players in Third Strike. I'd pick Daigo to win in SF4. I'd take BAS in CvS2. I got Khaos in MvC2. He doesn't even play Tekken that much. I'm just saying he's not going to be the favorite in every game but his fighting game IQ is pretty amazing.
@@omegaweapon116 I respect it. I just believe that if we were to pick 100 fighting games at random, Justin is winning 88 of m.
@@jairveldhuis7188 well I agree with you there
This was freaking funny! I can see this format being used with other players and legends!
Good job bois!
Staring Contest?!? RIP Floe the greatest Staring contest player to ever live
Infiltration should be on that Mt Rushmore somewhere, he gets a bad rap, but he def belongs there. If he didn't get cancelled by Capcom, he would still be tearing it up in SF6
💯💯💯
One of the best pieces of FGC content I’ve seen in a looonnnggg time. Good work! More like this please
That daigo parry is so ingrained in history you see it as references in games and it started a movement to daigo parry specifically Justin Wong across sf3 as a community
"We can do it right now!" Mena is a gamble with a problem at heart. xD
Yoooo if this was a series, I'd definitely tune in to see the different guest debate. This was peak forreal
Both these dudes came across as super likeable.
I must say Sony.... Thank you for investing in the FGC and doing stuff like this. It means alot to the community!
What you're looking at is a generational split. Justin played the harder games that required a LOT more skill and a LOT more execution! A LOT! MVC2, CVS2, 3S, etc.
These games are literally what birthed capcoms thoughts to make fighting games easier. The fact that these younger guys NEVER were good at these games and didn't get good until the easier games were made, you CANNOT compare them or ANY legacy they have to Justin Wongs, Daigo's, Ricky Ortiz, John Choi, Alex Valle, Yipes, Sanford Kelly, VDO, etc.
They are great for their generation but these guys BIRTHED the fgc and literally made it what it is! Justin Wong however had LEGENDARY DOMINANCE across MULTIPLE games!
Mena saying that tournaments are harder now is INSANE! Super Battle Opera used to be SINGLE ELIMINATION! These guys are using hitboxes for shortcuts for goodness sake! Bottom line, Mena CANNOT be compared to Justin Wong or the older legends. Harder games, harder execution, stronger players, STRONGER LEGACY! Period!
You're talking like someone who hasn't competed in both eras. Mena is young that's why he didn't play older games, not because they're too hard for him. Competition has gotten stronger, more people are decent, tournaments are harder
@@KeshavKrishnan There's always someone who wants a problem on the Internet lol. Y'all just live for it lol. Competed and won in both eras. I also literally opened my comment with, "This is a generational gap". Which is a fact. Your comment shows your age because people your age don't know how to present facts. When you disagree or don't like something, you just insult people. Lol. It's pretty pathetic little man.
What I said STILL stands. Single elimination tournaments, no hitboxes for easier inputs and execution was a LOT harder. Tournaments nowadays are not harder. Most players at Evo and major tourneys are still bad and there are the players that are obviously really good. The number of bad players will only continue to grow at tournaments because of the expansion of Evo. It's a spectacle. Which isn't a bad thing it just means there will be more players who aren't at a tournament level.
Mena is good for this generation but his legacy couldn't compare to J Wongs, Daigo's, John Choi, Valle's, Ricky Ortiz, Tokido, etc. You're talking about the best of the best in the harder games. No way sf6 and definitely not SF5 are harder games than MVC2, 3s, or CVS2. Not a chance. He's a good player though. Have a great day. I'm not going to respond to you from here.
@@RunningWild. even if you don't respond, you aren't providing facts or evidence to back up your claims either. I'd re-evaluate your rhetoric thoroughly. You might have data or evidence but you certainly provided nothing
It doesn’t logically follow that because older games had higher execution requirements tournaments were automatically harder. Execution is a barrier for low to mid tier players, at higher levels in any game it’s not really a factor and success is more about matchup knowledge and mind games. We also have to consider that modern net play and dissemination of information through online platforms like discord, UA-cam etc has caused the level of the average fighting game player to skyrocket. Then there’s the fact that there’s way more money in esports these days which naturally attracts a higher level of competition.
@@norf-kr6od that's completely false, you don't see third strike being overrun by makoto's doing the touch of death constantly because it's hard to do consistently.
I'm absolutely 100% with them about old school players vs modern players. When I gave my uncle SF6, who used to whoop me when I was little playing SF4, the controller with modern controls cuz I thought he'll want some help, he told me to give him the classic controls, picked Ryu, test out the buttons to remember what they were, and STILL proceed to whoop me again. No donkey kick, no Hashogeki, no OD moves, just pure muscle memory
3:26 You could feel The Wazzler coming out with that one
This is a great video
They have to do more of these !!!! Love it the idea !!
The smack talk is more fun than the actual matches😂
Bringing up the John Choi was amazing. Justin showing respect to the real OGs.
Justin Wong actually got it wrong @15:38. Daigo also did win 2 EVOs in the same tournament. And he did it twice, in back to back years. He won SF2 and GG both in 2003 and 2004.
i think he says jhon won 2 games in the same year
@@OfficialPistolathat’s what dude just said. Daigo won GG and SF in 03, and he won GG and sf in 04
I don’t know whether it’s true or not but ye.
Jwong is wrong, sonicfox won dragonball fighters AND MKX EVO, that’s 2 different games, I don’t get why he didn’t think about that
@@fgclash454bruh no one counts mk 💀😂
He was talking from a USA perspective.
8:30 I got tell young folks here, when I was a kid and another kid came and say, "dude did u saw this?" in biggest a brasilian city, we where not fighting games specialist, just 2 skateboarders that liked to play KoF time to time, and that hitted so hard the beauty of that moment, that small video shared by email with no editing, is hard to explain how important that is for ALL ESPORTS. no Coldzera Flying OP in CS, no Shy take over in LoL, no MAgic Topd deck can top that moment and I dont think anything ever will
Can we get that SFIV match though?
Woah this is like the URL battle rap faceoff format and it works really well here. Definitely wanna see more legends at the table like this.
Didnt know I needed this but indeed I did
Passing out to bed with tears these beautiful times are gone 😢 this was beautiful.
Amazing content between two legends, and shoutout to Steve for matching the energy.
This interviewer is brilliant. He is a natural for this and brings the energy. Get him involved in more events 👏
This was pretty good content!
Wazzler so good as trash talk. Dude is the casual tryhard trash talker lmao
I loved this. Mena is always so entertaining to watch. He got so much personality and charm.I love the kid
Didn't expect this video but now I want more of it. These 3 were amazing in this video.
I want to see them play SF4 and SF6.
moment 37 has to be the best moment in all e-sports, that was fire
Mena is so well spoken. Seems like such a nice guy. Definitely my favorite SF6 pro player right now
By far THEE greatest achievement for fgc as a whole is the Cannon brothers' rollback netcode. Undeniably the most positive impact on this genre expanding the horizons and allowing for SO many more players to get into them
I love the respect they both have towards each other. They genuinely care about their craft.
This was 🔥🔥🔥 content like this will make the fgc and the players grow bigger then they already are, please have a round table with top 10 current players
Also, Observing someone play you can easily tell what they are up to... WITH EASE! but when you are the one playing, it is different.. and ALL commentators can agree with these
The introduction edition of this video is magic ... Congrats for the Editor and these guys (Mena e Justin) are amazing, I loved, please more videos like that 😅
Mena better be careful. He might make JW actually try at sf6.
JWong has made the decision to prioritize his family over competitive gaming. He believes that it would be unfair to his wife and daughter if he were to constantly be away competing, and has therefore chosen to focus on content creation and commentary as a means of generating a stable income.
@@FrydryChowicz218a completely honorable decision on his part to be a good dad and husband. But I do think with the resurgence of MVC2, if it shows up in a tourney the wazzler might get the itch. Just one more for old times sake.
@@calibrated692 I recall that there were plans to feature Marvel vs. Capcom 2 at Evo for its 20th anniversary, but unfortunately, the event was canceled due to the pandemic. Jwong, Sanford, Yipes and Duc Do were supposed to get invited.
@@FrydryChowicz218 that’s true. If anything MvC seems to be giving him a lot of joy and competitive spirit
This was so fun to watch! I’m with Justin about Nuki on the mountain Rushmore, I wouldn’t put him up there neither. Personally would switch him out with Kazunoko some people don’t even know multi generational massacre this dude was practicing across multiple games that man is also another legend!
This is fire thanks please keep this kind of content coming.
This was a great format and I'd love to see more.
Some thoughts:
It would be nice for there to be time stamps for the questions.
If possible, when the guests reference past events and pros, there should be more footage and clips edited in. Being able to see Evo 37 as they're talking about it was a great example, and there were a ton of golden opportunities this episode could've shown off.
The editing and direction should have less emphasis on "winning" the question, and also less emphasis on who won the debate. The style to make it high tension as to who won makes it seem like an outdated jeopardy or Hell's Kitchen style American television, which feels like the wrong vibe. Whoever made the hip and fun intro to this video did NOT make the ending to this video.
Steve was a fantastic host and the editing going back and forth for the over-the-shoulder shots at each of the guest's reactions to one another was great.
There were a lot of good questions asked but also a ton more great questions that could've been asked. I'd love to see more episodes of this with potentially a few creative questions included.
Make this a series!
Daigo won Super Turbo and Guilty Gear XX in the same years, TWICE back to back
Arslan Ash and Xiohai won Tekken 7 and KOF respectively at both Evo and Evo Japan in the same years.
This is a GREAT series, high production quality too
Justin is a savage dude lololol. Love all 3.
Steve was biased af.
Oh Justin Wong 10-0 all day. Justin's retention of older SF games is on another level.
FGC video of the year
What a good and pleasant face off!! The answers are so honest and true about where the fighting game universe comes from and how it's going. Thank you MenaRD, J. Wong Sensei, and thank you Tasty Steve for this famous Interview 🔥🔥.
Dude, Mena will *never* beat Justin at any Marvel game. That's just a bad joke.
Yeah he was really pushing it. SFIV mayyyyyybe. SF3 no way. MvC2 ? You can't be serious.
I enjoy this type of content. Thanks to Mena and Jwong, kudos to Tasty Steve to know when to de-escalate the conversation and when to spice it up. Excellent Job
Justin got one thing wrong though, John Choi is not the only one to win 2 main Evo games in the same year. I can also remember Infiltration winning both SSF4 and SFxTK in the same year in 2012.
Sadly, nobody seems to be allowed to talk about Infiltration. Watch other videos of people talking about their top players of all time, and not a single one mentioned him not because they don't believe it (Mena has said it so many times, Infiltration is his goat) but because he's blacklisted.
Who?
@KeshavKrishnan I dunno if you are being a dick or not, but Google him. One of the greatest fighting game players of all time and was blacklisted for no legitimate reason
Infil still competes, watch his interview with Chris tatarian! Infil is the GOAT
@@redfacegaming7727 I followed the full court case, I was being a bastard. Not as much of a bastard as infil but hey. Even if you don't care about that situation, you should care that he rigged brackets in the Korean fgc. He chose to forfeit his defense for his legal case!
This was amazing! Let’s see them run the set
Bro we need more of this😂😂😂
commenting again just to share how awesome this was! Hope for more content like this within the FGC
Tasty Steve is a gem
Loved this! I want one for other fighting games or a version with Japanese players since we don't get to see enough of their personalities on the English-speaking side of the internet. Mango & HBox are my top picks for a future episode.
This hadouken button is AMAZING!!
😂😂😂👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
After this interview, tasty Steve obtained 50 more bangles 💀
Evo Moments in general - but specifically 37 is what took me from just watching every now and again to be apart of the reason I chose to go to local tournaments.
It's a nice light debate. I love the discussions.
Maybe someday we can have a more serious debate with a single topic that the 2 debaters have opposing opinions.
Dayum, Infiltration didn't get on the mt.rushmoore, that's crazy. Nuki, Daigo, and Tokido are hard to disagree with, great picks. Would've had Infil as the last one personally.
I would put infiltration in the place of Nuki, Momochi is rightfully up there.
Got me hooked when Street Fighter 4 was mentioned!
Mena only plays Street Fighter. His claim to fame is being great at SF5 and now 6... for people like RobTV to call Mena the "GOAT" (a term used WAYYYYYYYY to often) was absurd. I like Mena but he's still a baby who has barely accomplished anything compared to Justin. Justin has won multiple EVOs in multiple games. So many of us only play 1 game, or 1 character, or 1 team while Justin can play most of the cast of any game. Mena is awesome, I love his attitude and his greatness in SF... but EVERYONE who competes in the FGC is living in Justin's shadow when it comes to the GREATEST in the FGC. Imagine being as great as Justin during a time when ALL fighting games were busted, unbalanced, infinites all day, NO MODERN MECHANICS, 1 frame links, ect... ect... This isn't an OLD vs NEW, it's Justin has been doing this and winning probably before Mena was born or while he was still a baby.
Sf6 is the best all end all
@@Hunt9-qb1if If you're boring, sure.
@@Hunt9-qb1if yeah but calling someone the GOAT for winning in it when there are objectively harder games is a bit weird
I’m getting more into the E-Sports lifestyle as I’m getting older , Glad I’m enjoying this community more & more 🔥
That thumbnail is CRUSTY
Steve needs his own show I feel like this man’s talent in hosting, interviewing, and commentating is amazing
Bro J Wong too cold in the intro ngl
Justin was fvcking ghetto there, gotta love him for that. He's sitting in front of the bull after all. 😑🤜
That was fun! Good to see these guys chop it up to some q&a
This is one of the most interesting interviews I’ve seen in a while
this reminds me of prime CrossCounter content
Don't remind me... RIP :(