Okay just want to clear this up I'm well aware that most players consider Wavedashing in Melee to be an exploit and not a glitch. I mentioned in the intro that I considered both bugs AND exploits for this video, and I mainly just wanted to talk about Wavedashing because I think the topic is interesting. However, I should have made that more clear in the segment itself. I never wanna perpetuate misinformation so I'll make sure to be more on top of things like this in the future.
silly thing about wavedashing is that the dev team noticed it during development, and decided to keep it in. sakurai said so himself. which makes it an exploit of the physics engine, but not the game itself.
The Juggernaut glitch absolutely still works in the PSN/XBLA HD port of the game. Around when it came out that the new collection build omitted it some people started mistakenly spreading that it also didn't work in those ports when it's actually one of the few glitches that survived both the PS2/Xbox and PS3/360 ports of the game. Hopefully they take the feedback and just let it rock for the full MvC Collection release. Great video all the same though! I think Valle CC and CPS1 chains were the first fighting game glitches I ever learned about.
Considering you mentioned Rivals of Aether, I should mention that a mechanic from that game, hitfalling (the ability to fastfall during hitpause), was originally a bug caused by how fastfall logic was programmed. It was left in the game because players told the creator of the game to leave it in and man was that a good idea. It went on to define the combo structure of the game and seems to have become one of the defining mechanics of the franchise (since it's returning in Rival 2).
They just announced CVS2 as part of a collection, and it literally lets you choose between the arcade and EO version, with it even mentioning in the notes section "Roll canceling into a move does not grant invincibility in the EO version", so they are fully aware and want people to be able to choose if that exists in their game!
I guess the only good take away from this option is that at least now P groove will be somewhat viable option now, if you choose to go with the EO revisión. I also believe S groove got a couple buffs too.
I truly feel that in some way, they knew RC would be possible before they released the game initially. Considering things like kara cancelling into both special moves and throws existed in games before that, they obviously knew to look for cancelling the startup of something into something else to gain an advantage. They would have to be very silly to completely miss the fact that cancelling a roll into a special move granted you the properties of the roll during the entire development and testing lifecycles of the game. Maybe they left it in, but may not have considered how actually strong it would turn out to be as the meta evolved
@@r1konTheAutomatorThey did know, since it was done even in the location tests but they didn’t fix it for likely the same reason Wavedashing was (purposefully) left in.
If I recall correctly in the original Guilty Gear there was a glitch that let you to cancel recovery frames of a special move. Yes, you guessed it right, in the later games it became an actual mechanic aka Roman Cancel Edit: minor grammatical error
Craziest part is I don't even think it's a bug; I think they just saw charging as a mechanic and were like: "Yeah you can cancel into that off ANY NORMAL for FREE, also you can can cancel it at any time; I'm sure this will fit in perfectly."
Aren't you referring to Charge Cancels? Where you could perform a purely intentional cancel from a normal into charge, but charge had no recovery and only needed to be pressed for 1 frame, so you effectively got an instant cancel
What I find so fun and love Melee for is that wavedash was a *key* element in Ganondorf move set to make him barely escape the bottom of the lowest tier in that game, it made his crazy whacky playstyle actually viable and fun to see in tournaments because it meant nobody would take that fight seriously... And when it disappeared Ganondorf was plunged to his death in the tier lists
Ganon reached rock bottom for more reasons than that. Brawl being an awful game was the main contributor, but his moveset also just got worse on its own, with aerial Down B fix in particular completely neutering his ability to recover.
Ganondorf didnt fall off because he lost wavedashing. In melee, everyone can benefit from wavedashing, if Ganon didn’t have it, he wouldn’t be too much worse relatively because logically no one would have it. He plummeted down the tierlist because he was inexplicably nerfed beyond that lmao
@@keystone5750 That's true but the removal of wavedashing/wavelanding still definitely affected Ganon disproportionately compared to other characters because he lost his only viable way to approach. Like Marth was still good in Brawl because having a big sword is inherently a good trait that doesn't require wavedashing to be effective, but Ganon, in addition to the nerfs, no longer had any way to approach at all.
My favorite fighting game bug is Scizor, from Pokken Tournament. No, I don't think anything's wrong with him, he's a bug, right? ...oh. I might have misunderstood something.
A thought to mention is that K groove doesn't just reward you for losing, but it also rewards you for being good at the game. K groove is not just a reference to SamSho with it's revenge meter, but also a reference to Garou because of how it has Just Defend. And if you thought JD was good in Garou, it's BUSTED in CvS2. Every successful JD can dramatically boost a chunk of your meter, and it doesn't matter how much damage the attack does. Meaning if you did a multi hit super or attack raw, you basically just gave your opponent a free Rage mode.
Allow me to reiterate so as to not sound like a leffen fan who just has no point in the words they say. Fox and Falcao are the biggest beneficiaries of the wave Dash Puff does not get as many benefits as those 2 do as seen in the video with them haveing shine
I think he meant working as intended, around about 12 characters are considered viable, but they all use a lot of jank not intended by the devs, yet puff has next to no tech
@@Noahtheorigianl from the comment sections in other videos, that's where I get it from. These guys telling me "how wave dashing affects melee's meta?", "It's really not broken at all, way to call yourself out lmao (wavedash & waveshine)", "Wavedashing is an intended mechanic sorry your wrong (in the way is used in competitive)", but this may be only a handful of Melee players.
@@BiohazardScott definitely only a handful of players say that. I’ve been going to irl tourneys regularly since 2014 and the general population all agree that the game is dumb and broken and has a lot of oversights and just low dev development. But it’s a beautiful accident/mistake that somehow has made the game extremely fun and added depth to melee’s gamethoery
Honorable mention to hulk's double gamma crush in mvc2, where if you use the gamma crush super while your opponent is midair, it will deal double damage. Pair hulk up with a good anti air or expansion assist and you can 1 shot people with ease.
I've never thought about it before, but Melee and MvC2 really are spiritual siblings. There are so many more comparisons you can make too beyond just both being glitchy messes that still got incredibly popular. They are very fast fighters dominated by the characters with the best movement options for instance. And lots more.
Disagree. I know this might just be something related to my tastes, but I never understood the point of people saying that Melee is similar to Non-Plataform Fighters, I've been playing Platform Fighters since I was a kid and even back then I never liked games like MvC, KoF or Tekken, even though my favorite Platform Fighters (P+ and Rivals) have different movement mechanics like those games that I don't like to play, In fact, of all the fighting game genres I've played, the ones I liked the most outside of the Platform Fighter genre were "slower" games like SF, Garou and SamSho. And this isn't for nothing that I haven't played many quick fighting games, it's simply that I end up finding the game either interesting but unnecessarily difficult (Tekken and Hisoutensoku) or hating it from top to bottom (All ArcSys games)
this channel is just about everything i love in informational fighting game media. good, reliable information, footage to help me understand, and even a little bit of annoyed, spiteful comments on belligerent/stupid tools. thank you!
Small correction: the Valle CC actually has limited range, it works because of the blowback of custom combos, and the range on this is nearly point blank. The only exception to this is Evil Ryu, who has a full screen blowback, and, thus, can Valle CC anyone within the range of his sweep.
Blowback isn't required, the oppenent just has to be standing on the frame cc is activated and be within range of any low attack. Your lows will come out faster than they can crouch block.
UMvC3 TAC infinites are also a glitch that's meta defining. Basically, during an air combo, you press j.S plus a direction and depending on the direction you're holding you'll get a specific effect plus swap to the second slot character to continue the combo. During TAC, your opponent can break if they press the same input and direction you are holding, resetting to neutral. How TACs cause infinites is due to two mechanics interacting in an unintended way: 1. Hitstun decay after a TAC is nulified until you touch the ground 2. There's a few frames during landing where your air actions are restored, but you are techincally considered airborne. Ergo, if you jump at the right timing, you can continuously hit your opponent in an infinite due to no hitstun scaling. Because of this, every character has an infinite, and it makes a lot of team comps that were previously not viable before the discovery, and greatly freed up what character you could run as point since you could have a TAC infinite character in your second slot.
i guess if we want to have hope, MvC collection is still being worked on so there's a chance they roll back the glitch fixes for Juggernaut. If not, we'll always have Fightcade.
Your content is very good! Even as an experienced fighting game player, I appreciate how you explain things in straightforward terms so that non-fighting game players can still understand what is happening and why. Been a fan for a while but this video solidified your consistent quality to me, and I wanted to say so. Thank you for your effort!
Glitch: Programming error resulting in unintended* behavior. (Example: buffer underflows resulting in installs never expiring) Exploit: Interactions between elements, without errors in and of themselves, that result in unintended* behavior. (Example: Air dash into the ground + friction system = wavedash) From a developer perspective, there isn't really much of a difference between the two. It's stuff they didn't want. The difference is semantics, both are valid for just about any discussion of this kind of thing. *"Unintended" is only considered from programmer and designer perspective, not from player perspective. EDIT: Replaced "undesired" with "unintended" due to @Twisted_Logic's reply.
I prefer the term "unintended" to "undesired" as it's more neutrally valanced. Sometimes the developers end up embracing them, even if the game wasn't originally built with them in mind.
@@Twisted_Logic You're right. Fighting games are the perfect example, specifically Street Fighter 2. The very existence of combos is unintended behavior, but Capcom liked and kept that.
I think one of the examples of this I've discovered more recently is kneedashing in Street Fighter 1. More specifically Mike's kneedash in the ROM hack Street Fighter++, a ROM hack that allows you to play as the entire SF1 cast. Kneedashing is an exploit only characters who can crouch can pull off that involves cancelling a crouch into moving forward. It isn't super great for those who can do it. Sometimes it's faster to, sometimes it's not. Though Mike can kneedash in a way no one else can. If you hold down and then keep going back and forth between down left and down right, Mike can start zooming toward the opponent. This is a crucial part of Mike's kit because he has very little good get in options, he doesn't even have jumping attacks. He might have two of the strongest buttons in the game in his heavy punch and all three of his kicks, but with otherwise being one of the slowest characters in the game, he would be complete garbage without his almighty kneedash.
It doesn't help that games can receive updates now so all the old bugs from games will be remembered and bugs in newer games will be phased out eventually
I wish you talked about MK more cause it has a good few examples of meta defining glitches, especially in the arcade titles The most known one is Glitch Jabs aka Golden Punches, while spamming Jabs (Far S1/S2) you could Hold Down+Block and that would let you attack AND block at the same time, you were still throwing out jabs but if the opponent used a projectile or low profile move you'd just block it even tho you were in the middle of an attack This glitch is most prominent in the MK3 series but it's also featured in MK1, MK2 and MK4
Bro, I am a life long fighting game enthusiast and member of the melee community since 2013. I have just got to the part about melee and I am already making the hard read that you nailed this video all the way through. Insta sub. Hope to get some games one day!
My own personal favorite glitch/exploit is in Super Smash Flash 2, personal favorite of mine among platform fighters for its severely underrated competitive depth. It comes from a carryover from Melee, where characters with tethers / Z-airs can use these moves while in airdodge. In SSF2 however, this lead to Samus and Link being able to throw items while in airdodge as well, and with you being able to grab items using airdodge, it makes for a deep level of item play to instantly catch and re-toss items.
Great vid! In CVS2, you can RC taunts as well. In CVS2, taunting gives your opponent meter, so you shouldn't really do them. However, a taunt can put an opponent using K Groove into the Rage state (provided the gauge is nearly full), giving you control over it. 😊
Glitch is a bug that can be exploited. Exploit is anything that is a bug, or feature, that is used or over used in a manor that can be considered unintended to gain an advantage.
Just subbed to this channel. Love the content. Your style and over all presentation is perfect. ... So glad you got your audio in order lol 😁 (Needs some MINOR tweaking, but you are 99% of the way there, bud 👍)
Since day 1 of people trying to explain roll cancelling this is the first time someone properly explained and with visible examples. Good on you MrMixtape.
i think i saw in an asumsaus vid, the first documented person on the internet talking about wavedashing was the creator of smash maybe a day or two after melee dropped. a luigi was talking about sliding around after airdodging into the ground before landing, and sakura mentioned you can do it right after jumping. the dude pretty clearly understood the resulting mechanics from his games system. im still extremely confident in saying he had no idea how players would use and push it though, so great addition to the vid.
Hey nice ssfx6 reference! I love the background music from that game. For those wondering, I’m talking about the bgm during the street fighter alpha 2 section
Jump cancel tossing is a mechanic in smash brawl and Wii u. When dashing in those games you throw an item and you will do a dash throw. However, you can cancel a dash with a jump. Then, in the jump squat animation you can cancel the jump with a throw. Throwing this way allows you to maintain your dash momentum and do a standing throw which is faster than a dashing throw. In brawl this was a mandatory mechanic for zss, wario, dedede, etc anybody with projectiles. It allows them to connect combos that wouldn't be possible increasing their place on the tier list massively. In ultimate they ended up just removing the mechanic entirely making dash those generally better however I always just missed this mechanic it always allowed me to kind of just do things that other people didn't know about. I don't know if that's how game should be made but in my opinion it's what made fighting games are special to me
Exploit: Something that works as expected by the developers, but the consequences of its abuse where not considered by them. Yet, its principles work exactly as intended. Glitch: Something that is not working as expected by the developers. Is a malfunction of the game... A malfunction that players make work, if you will.
Flame Iori in KoF XIII has a glitch that allows him to cancel recovery frames on his second rekka hit by inputting Maiden Masher input late. This turns him from strong to busted. It gives him one of the biggest damage outputs if you use it once per combo, and also gives him an infinite if you don't value your hands.
Juggernaut is my favorite super villain and when i was 5 years old in like 2005 I saw MVC2 at a put put place and saw juggernaut in the Inteo of the arcade. Aka juggernaut is why i fell in love with MvC and now i am into the whole series. Aye man just talking about his mechanics specicifally helped me learn as a casual player and aye my autism happy cuz Juggernaut bruh lol. Great video by the way
One thing on jugg’s power-up, if you do his universal launcher (d/f HP) it doesn’t take away the power up so you can mix this in before tagging to add some knowledge-check minor unpredictability before expectedly tagging out.
This was a really well made and researched video, but if I could leave 1 criticism it would be that you could have used more outsourced footage of the techniques being used in like real competitive scenarios. It's cool that you went out of your way to record so much for your own video, but I feel like some of the footage didn't exactly line up well with what you were saying at the time. Still a solid and enjoyable video though.
I've always found it very interesting that, despite how well-known and ubiquitous roll canceling is to CvS2, every groove sees some tournament play and several characters are high tier despite not having good roll cancel options.
I Remember that the arcade release my local games shop had of mortal kombat 2 had a bug for which, only if you started the game as player 2, you could just jump backwards continously and kick and the cpu would run into you. I used that trick to show fatalities and similar to people using shang tsung (yes, i have a very good memory)
Personally, if I had to define glitch vs exploit I would say it depends on if anything breaks. Other character stops fighting, your character stops taking damage, etc is a glitch. Exploits are "legal" interactions that have unintended and more often that not beneficial outcomes. That said, I think it's more fun to try to define them for the thought experiment. IMO, there isn't a huge practical difference. (Enjoy the engagement bump MrMixtape! ;D)
here are some i use. in +r ino has to make use of jump installs in order to extend combos and corner pressure, any character if they use a special move that leaves them actionable airborne is able to jump install by performing it on the frame they land after a jump. this lets you jump, air dash or attack in situations where you're normally not able to, she also uses an air stall technique in order to access certain combos, blockstrings and movement options. in tatsunoko some characters like megaman are able to act out of certain special and command normals differently depending on how they jump out of them. in megaman's case if you for example do a j.6m input you can jump to either ascend or decend in an actionable state after making contact, this is determined by how early you press a button after jump cancelling the airborne attack, if done early the jump gains no acceleration but you're able to perform several airborne actions during this interaction.
wavedashing in melee is an exploit, it was put in by the devs but they didnt realize how powerful it would be. L-canceling is also an exploit if you want to see silly glitches look at character specific tech in brawl a character specific glitch you could have gone over instead is yoshi parrying in smash 64 and melee or b reversing and wave bouncing in smash 4 and smash ultimate
Wrong on both accounts. Wavedashing was not intentionally put in the game, it was merely left there. It's a product of how momentum is transfered between air and ground states. Air dodging isn't even the only way to trigger that kind of slide, it's merely the most convenient and universal one (see also Super Wavedash, which involves Samus' Down B instead). L-cancellin is neither a glitch nor an exploit, it's a hidden mechanic left from 64. Back in 64, it was called Z Cancelling and removed all lag entirely instead of halving it, they nerfed it for Melee and removed after that game.
Reminds me of the Final Fantasy 1 critical bug (all hits in a single fight action are crits after the first crit), and how it defined boss fighting. And monks being offensive weapons.
Worth noting that air dodges themselves in Melee aren't all made equally. Zelda's and Peach's stall them shorter, making them much better than other character's. Additionally, when it comes to recovery, if you have to get past an edgeguarding hitbox, sometimes you kind of have to airdodge to get back. Air dodges are somewhat useable to get around hitboxes and zoning in Melee, but this isn't nearly as effective as an approach option as Brawl, and usually takes the form of "triangle jumping" in Melee, which looks like a poorly executed wavedash. Not a huge number of players actually do this, but I've seen it over the years. Another important thing wavedashing enables in Melee, is that it allows you to be actionable out of shield with whatever option you want sooner or in better positioning than otherwise, because the animation for releasing shield in Melee is variable, but quite long, from 14 frames to 18 across the cast, so around 1/4 second. There are only a few options you can do directly from shielding (allowing you to skip this animation), however. You can grab, roll, spotdodge or jump. This last one is key, because aside from being able to cancel the jump animation before going airborne with a few things like up-special or up-smash, being able to jump out of shield means you can wavedash out of shield as soon as you aren't in shield stun (if you ever were) which sometimes means you can act a little faster than your shield releasing animation depending on character, but always means you can reposition yourself and then act faster than if you rolled at that point. The compensation for this in Brawl was to make everyone's animation for releasing shield only 7 frames, and to make it so that if your shield was hit, you can do any ground attack out of shield skipping this animation when shield stun ends, and that latter part has been retained in the series since. They decided to slow down the animation for releasing shield again though and made it a universal 11 frames after Brawl. I guess I should also mention if you're holding an item (which in a competitive setting means a character who can produce items is in the match) you can throw items out of shield, and something important here is that rolls can be cancelled into item throws, which depending on timing and character, may cause them to move themselves a bit during this throw in a technique called glide tossing. Smash 4 also introduced the ability to cancel a forward roll into a grab, which can somewhat increase the grab's range. You can also fall through platforms out of shield in every game except Ultimate. Somehow I managed to talk about several other smash exploits when elaborating on the uses of wavedash and what replaced it. And for those not in the know, if it wasn't clear already, Smash runs at 60 fps.
Another interesting melee bug/mistake is that shine can be jump canceled only when it hasn’t reflected anything, which we as changed to only when it has reflected something in all future games
It's got to be Jump Install. Unlike how roll cancels and Valle Custom Combos got removed in future releases, Jump Installs persisted from from their initial discovery in GGX all the way to Guilty Gear Xrd, where in-game tutorials acknowledged the mechanic and taught you how to do it.
For me, a bug is something in the code that does not work "as intended." The "kill screens" in various old arcade games are bugs because the designers simply thought nobody would ever play for that long in one go, so they didn't consider what the game would try to do if someone did. As a result, you get memory overflows that cause the game to try and write half the screen with, say, data in the sound bank instead of the graphics bank. Meanwhile, an exploit is something that works as intended on its own but interacts with another element in a way that upsets the game balance. My go-to example of an exploit is the Restoration Loop in Skyrim: enchanting works normally and alchemy works normally, it's when you use the two systems to create a positive feedback loop that you've found an exploit.
There's a glitch in MK11 with Noob Saibot that usually throws do about 13% damage but if your opponent has 20% and you try to trigger his grab brutality, it activates and he wins. With anyone else, you keep your remaining 3% health
Custom combo is to this day my favorite system mechanic in the SF series. It offered a cool angle that still demanded the player to have execution and was flashy as hell. Another thing to notice about wavedashing is that it allows you to attack while retreating, making your movement options way more diverse in that regard as well. Finally, nintendo's handling of melee's competitively depth is beyond unnerving. They did all they could to completely destroy brawl's competitive possibilities, making it a worse game as a result, all due to a warped perception that the very niche, very specific competitive community would somehow alienate the casual players. Sakurai's greatest gift was making melee, his second one would be not ever touching the game again
How is there, in 2024, still some amount on debate on whether wadashing is a glitch or not It is litterally two mechanics working as intended, the fact that devs didn't expect people to use them together like this does not make this a glitch in any shape or form wtf
He said, outright, that exploits and glitches were going to be under the same umbrella for this video. He knew, but he wanted it in, that's just how it is
neutral air dodge was in melee, it’s just never used. it was heavily buffed in brawl with it no longer halting momentum and not putting you in free fall
Wavedashing is actually not a glitch. Sakurai himself actually helped the early smash community (long before the competitive scene) discover it on online forums. AsumSaus made a video clarifying that it isn't a glitch.
While it isn’t a glitch, air-dodging definitely wasn’t intended to be used that way. It was just a result of the games mechanics that it was possible to do so. Sakurai noticed it but he left it in because he never expected people to use it in the way they do now.
Yadda yadda yadda Sakurai knew about wavedashing as an engine quirk, and decided to keep it in One interesting thing I've never heard talked about is that they seemingly tried to balance wavedashing. There's a 10 frame period where you can't attack while sliding, but when you think about it, thats not the case for any other kind of ground landing in melee, besides specific move endlag. And the game would be BUSTED even more if you could attack frame 1 out of a wavedash/waveland and slide at the same time. It would be the entire meta Only other thing I can think of is maybe they put that endlag from airdodge sliding in to make sure people couldn't tri jump with air dodges and abuse invincibility
I think that was less an attempt to balance wavedashing specifically, and more for the purpose of making air dodge landing punishable. Frankly, the explanation that it was to prevent triangle jump abuse makes more sense. Spot-dodges and rolls are meant to be punishable (unless it's DDD's spot dodge in Brawl I guess).
Guilty Gear X has an interesting one. Under normal circumstances, it's possible to kara-cancel pretty much any normal into Faultless Defense. By itself, this isn't immediately useful, but you can do this with Sweeps both in neutral and during combos. It's awkward as hell to actually input, but when done properly you can cancel the endlag of any normal that chains into Sweep for a fraction of the cost of a Roman Cancel.
Juggernaut was never a problem imo, even the best players I went against dropped him from their line up after a while. Once someone did that glitch imo the priority becomes happy birthday or just bring the guy out his assist could be countered easily enough with your own assist, I believe it was anti-air would beat out most of his because of his size. But I do like your term there, 'brain-less' Cable is in my opinion much more annoying to deal with, a good Cable can get fancy sure dropping grenades, zoning, trying to trap you but it's like watching that evolution charge from monkey posture to man back to monkey as they ultimately go light medium hyper viper beam.
funny thing about wavedashing is that the development team found it during the game's creation, and ultimately decided to leave it in because they didn't think it would have an impact on how the game was played. How wrong they were.
Okay just want to clear this up
I'm well aware that most players consider Wavedashing in Melee to be an exploit and not a glitch. I mentioned in the intro that I considered both bugs AND exploits for this video, and I mainly just wanted to talk about Wavedashing because I think the topic is interesting. However, I should have made that more clear in the segment itself. I never wanna perpetuate misinformation so I'll make sure to be more on top of things like this in the future.
Wavedash isn't even an exploit either. wavedash is two intended mechanics working exactly as they're supposed to do. Wavedashing is emergent gameplay.
all good man. great video nonetheless
Will you ever make more megaman video's
I wouldn't even say that it's an exploit and was an intended feature.
silly thing about wavedashing is that the dev team noticed it during development, and decided to keep it in. sakurai said so himself. which makes it an exploit of the physics engine, but not the game itself.
The Juggernaut glitch absolutely still works in the PSN/XBLA HD port of the game. Around when it came out that the new collection build omitted it some people started mistakenly spreading that it also didn't work in those ports when it's actually one of the few glitches that survived both the PS2/Xbox and PS3/360 ports of the game. Hopefully they take the feedback and just let it rock for the full MvC Collection release.
Great video all the same though! I think Valle CC and CPS1 chains were the first fighting game glitches I ever learned about.
JWong tested it and the Juggernaut glitch was apparently patched out of Marvel Fighting Collection.
@@ingetoutit just got added back as of now
Considering you mentioned Rivals of Aether, I should mention that a mechanic from that game, hitfalling (the ability to fastfall during hitpause), was originally a bug caused by how fastfall logic was programmed. It was left in the game because players told the creator of the game to leave it in and man was that a good idea. It went on to define the combo structure of the game and seems to have become one of the defining mechanics of the franchise (since it's returning in Rival 2).
Ranno up air 1 loops are my favorite
no. frik ranno@@lxchris5252
Same thing with brawhalla doing specially in air while in the airdodge float state
They just announced CVS2 as part of a collection, and it literally lets you choose between the arcade and EO version, with it even mentioning in the notes section "Roll canceling into a move does not grant invincibility in the EO version", so they are fully aware and want people to be able to choose if that exists in their game!
I guess the only good take away from this option is that at least now P groove will be somewhat viable option now, if you choose to go with the EO revisión. I also believe S groove got a couple buffs too.
I truly feel that in some way, they knew RC would be possible before they released the game initially. Considering things like kara cancelling into both special moves and throws existed in games before that, they obviously knew to look for cancelling the startup of something into something else to gain an advantage. They would have to be very silly to completely miss the fact that cancelling a roll into a special move granted you the properties of the roll during the entire development and testing lifecycles of the game. Maybe they left it in, but may not have considered how actually strong it would turn out to be as the meta evolved
@@r1konTheAutomatorThey did know, since it was done even in the location tests but they didn’t fix it for likely the same reason Wavedashing was (purposefully) left in.
18:30 I like how one of the street fighter characters known for rolling is good at abusing roll canceling
If I recall correctly in the original Guilty Gear there was a glitch that let you to cancel recovery frames of a special move. Yes, you guessed it right, in the later games it became an actual mechanic aka Roman Cancel
Edit: minor grammatical error
It was the taunt being cancellable, and able to cancel into (similar to feint cancels in Garou apparently)
Craziest part is I don't even think it's a bug; I think they just saw charging as a mechanic and were like: "Yeah you can cancel into that off ANY NORMAL for FREE, also you can can cancel it at any time; I'm sure this will fit in perfectly."
@@AnBruscarNaSocai The "Is that a bug...? it is? Nah its a feature now, have fun" moment
Aren't you referring to Charge Cancels? Where you could perform a purely intentional cancel from a normal into charge, but charge had no recovery and only needed to be pressed for 1 frame, so you effectively got an instant cancel
you can cancel basically anything into a run on hit in ggml bc of taunt cancelling, so the game sorta just revolves around infinites
What I find so fun and love Melee for is that wavedash was a *key* element in Ganondorf move set to make him barely escape the bottom of the lowest tier in that game, it made his crazy whacky playstyle actually viable and fun to see in tournaments because it meant nobody would take that fight seriously...
And when it disappeared Ganondorf was plunged to his death in the tier lists
Ganon reached rock bottom for more reasons than that. Brawl being an awful game was the main contributor, but his moveset also just got worse on its own, with aerial Down B fix in particular completely neutering his ability to recover.
Ganondorf didnt fall off because he lost wavedashing. In melee, everyone can benefit from wavedashing, if Ganon didn’t have it, he wouldn’t be too much worse relatively because logically no one would have it.
He plummeted down the tierlist because he was inexplicably nerfed beyond that lmao
@@keystone5750 That's true but the removal of wavedashing/wavelanding still definitely affected Ganon disproportionately compared to other characters because he lost his only viable way to approach. Like Marth was still good in Brawl because having a big sword is inherently a good trait that doesn't require wavedashing to be effective, but Ganon, in addition to the nerfs, no longer had any way to approach at all.
My favorite fighting game bug is Scizor, from Pokken Tournament.
No, I don't think anything's wrong with him, he's a bug, right? ...oh. I might have misunderstood something.
Pokken superiority! (I have never played the game, but I really want to and have no Nintendo devices it exists on)
I want a Pokken 2 so badly
A thought to mention is that K groove doesn't just reward you for losing, but it also rewards you for being good at the game. K groove is not just a reference to SamSho with it's revenge meter, but also a reference to Garou because of how it has Just Defend. And if you thought JD was good in Garou, it's BUSTED in CvS2. Every successful JD can dramatically boost a chunk of your meter, and it doesn't matter how much damage the attack does. Meaning if you did a multi hit super or attack raw, you basically just gave your opponent a free Rage mode.
i cant believe he dedicated an entire 22 minutes and 26 seconds dedicated to explaining how puff is the only working thing in melee !
Allow me to reiterate so as to not sound like a leffen fan who just has no point in the words they say. Fox and Falcao are the biggest beneficiaries of the wave Dash Puff does not get as many benefits as those 2
do as seen in the video with them haveing shine
I think he meant working as intended, around about 12 characters are considered viable, but they all use a lot of jank not intended by the devs, yet puff has next to no tech
Ah fair enough mate, sorry for jumping the queue
Melee needs to die
@@Raptor-vs7wbpuff having rest is the “tech” (albeit dev intended) when you take tech-chasing into account
11:50
FUN FACT: The reason MR G&W can't L-cancel his air normals is because for some reason they're considered special moves. That's Melee for ya.
That's some interesting information! If this isn't able to take people out of their delusion of Melee not being broken at all, maybe nothing will.
@@BiohazardScottwe all think it’s broken idk where u get this info from lol
I'm so shocked Melee came out as functional as it did
@@Noahtheorigianl from the comment sections in other videos, that's where I get it from.
These guys telling me "how wave dashing affects melee's meta?", "It's really not broken at all, way to call yourself out lmao (wavedash & waveshine)", "Wavedashing is an intended mechanic sorry your wrong (in the way is used in competitive)", but this may be only a handful of Melee players.
@@BiohazardScott definitely only a handful of players say that. I’ve been going to irl tourneys regularly since 2014 and the general population all agree that the game is dumb and broken and has a lot of oversights and just low dev development. But it’s a beautiful accident/mistake that somehow has made the game extremely fun and added depth to melee’s gamethoery
Honorable mention to hulk's double gamma crush in mvc2, where if you use the gamma crush super while your opponent is midair, it will deal double damage. Pair hulk up with a good anti air or expansion assist and you can 1 shot people with ease.
I'm less than a minute in and this is exactly what I wanna watch during lunch.
I've never thought about it before, but Melee and MvC2 really are spiritual siblings. There are so many more comparisons you can make too beyond just both being glitchy messes that still got incredibly popular. They are very fast fighters dominated by the characters with the best movement options for instance. And lots more.
Elaborate, please.
@@Y20XTongvaLandig they're both really old and people still play them
Compares the 2 as siblings despite having a couple of things in common. Refuses to elaborate and leaves. Lol.@@Y20XTongvaLand
Disagree. I know this might just be something related to my tastes, but I never understood the point of people saying that Melee is similar to Non-Plataform Fighters, I've been playing Platform Fighters since I was a kid and even back then I never liked games like MvC, KoF or Tekken, even though my favorite Platform Fighters (P+ and Rivals) have different movement mechanics like those games that I don't like to play, In fact, of all the fighting game genres I've played, the ones I liked the most outside of the Platform Fighter genre were "slower" games like SF, Garou and SamSho. And this isn't for nothing that I haven't played many quick fighting games, it's simply that I end up finding the game either interesting but unnecessarily difficult (Tekken and Hisoutensoku) or hating it from top to bottom (All ArcSys games)
Don't compare MVC2 to trash
i'm not gonna bark at you for calling a wavedash a glitch but i am going to bark at you for not mentioning koopabackdashwaveslidehoverwalkmoonlanding
Fr man these fake fans 🙄
this channel is just about everything i love in informational fighting game media. good, reliable information, footage to help me understand, and even a little bit of annoyed, spiteful comments on belligerent/stupid tools. thank you!
Small correction: the Valle CC actually has limited range, it works because of the blowback of custom combos, and the range on this is nearly point blank. The only exception to this is Evil Ryu, who has a full screen blowback, and, thus, can Valle CC anyone within the range of his sweep.
Blowback isn't required, the oppenent just has to be standing on the frame cc is activated and be within range of any low attack. Your lows will come out faster than they can crouch block.
UMvC3 TAC infinites are also a glitch that's meta defining. Basically, during an air combo, you press j.S plus a direction and depending on the direction you're holding you'll get a specific effect plus swap to the second slot character to continue the combo. During TAC, your opponent can break if they press the same input and direction you are holding, resetting to neutral. How TACs cause infinites is due to two mechanics interacting in an unintended way:
1. Hitstun decay after a TAC is nulified until you touch the ground
2. There's a few frames during landing where your air actions are restored, but you are techincally considered airborne.
Ergo, if you jump at the right timing, you can continuously hit your opponent in an infinite due to no hitstun scaling. Because of this, every character has an infinite, and it makes a lot of team comps that were previously not viable before the discovery, and greatly freed up what character you could run as point since you could have a TAC infinite character in your second slot.
IIRC this was also the mechanic thats originally used by Marlin for his flashy Doom combo?
@@screwtokaiba definitely
i guess if we want to have hope, MvC collection is still being worked on so there's a chance they roll back the glitch fixes for Juggernaut.
If not, we'll always have Fightcade.
Your content is very good! Even as an experienced fighting game player, I appreciate how you explain things in straightforward terms so that non-fighting game players can still understand what is happening and why.
Been a fan for a while but this video solidified your consistent quality to me, and I wanted to say so.
Thank you for your effort!
Glitch: Programming error resulting in unintended* behavior. (Example: buffer underflows resulting in installs never expiring)
Exploit: Interactions between elements, without errors in and of themselves, that result in unintended* behavior. (Example: Air dash into the ground + friction system = wavedash)
From a developer perspective, there isn't really much of a difference between the two. It's stuff they didn't want. The difference is semantics, both are valid for just about any discussion of this kind of thing.
*"Unintended" is only considered from programmer and designer perspective, not from player perspective.
EDIT: Replaced "undesired" with "unintended" due to @Twisted_Logic's reply.
I prefer the term "unintended" to "undesired" as it's more neutrally valanced. Sometimes the developers end up embracing them, even if the game wasn't originally built with them in mind.
@@Twisted_Logic You're right. Fighting games are the perfect example, specifically Street Fighter 2. The very existence of combos is unintended behavior, but Capcom liked and kept that.
The MVC collection just got an update where you can toggle the juggernaut glitch on or off, this is not available for switch users yet though
The 2009 release of MvC2 didn't remove the Juggernaut glitch. It was the PS2/Xbox versions that did that.
It definitely still works in the PS2 version as well.
I think one of the examples of this I've discovered more recently is kneedashing in Street Fighter 1.
More specifically Mike's kneedash in the ROM hack Street Fighter++, a ROM hack that allows you to play as the entire SF1 cast.
Kneedashing is an exploit only characters who can crouch can pull off that involves cancelling a crouch into moving forward. It isn't super great for those who can do it. Sometimes it's faster to, sometimes it's not.
Though Mike can kneedash in a way no one else can. If you hold down and then keep going back and forth between down left and down right, Mike can start zooming toward the opponent.
This is a crucial part of Mike's kit because he has very little good get in options, he doesn't even have jumping attacks. He might have two of the strongest buttons in the game in his heavy punch and all three of his kicks, but with otherwise being one of the slowest characters in the game, he would be complete garbage without his almighty kneedash.
3:17 Funny thing about that, You can whiff df+HP launcher and the powerup wont go away. I guess because it counts as a special normal
The modern mind cannot comprehend Melee Ness' yoyo glitch. They don't make games like that anymore
there is one modern game I know with a codebase that janky and it's called League of legends
Good
In Brawl Sheik had the chain-jacket glitch, which is similar to certain things you can do after the Yo-Yo glitch.
It doesn't help that games can receive updates now so all the old bugs from games will be remembered and bugs in newer games will be phased out eventually
I wish you talked about MK more cause it has a good few examples of meta defining glitches, especially in the arcade titles
The most known one is Glitch Jabs aka Golden Punches, while spamming Jabs (Far S1/S2) you could Hold Down+Block and that would let you attack AND block at the same time, you were still throwing out jabs but if the opponent used a projectile or low profile move you'd just block it even tho you were in the middle of an attack
This glitch is most prominent in the MK3 series but it's also featured in MK1, MK2 and MK4
Dude, I love your content and I don't even play half the games you cover. Keep up the great work!
graaaaagh 14:48 hitbox/hurtbox misuse graaaaagh
but its common enough now that people basically use them interchangeably
great video btw!
I was about to comment this lmao.
Hitboxes hit things, hurtboxes can get hurt.
Bro, I am a life long fighting game enthusiast and member of the melee community since 2013. I have just got to the part about melee and I am already making the hard read that you nailed this video all the way through. Insta sub. Hope to get some games one day!
My own personal favorite glitch/exploit is in Super Smash Flash 2, personal favorite of mine among platform fighters for its severely underrated competitive depth. It comes from a carryover from Melee, where characters with tethers / Z-airs can use these moves while in airdodge. In SSF2 however, this lead to Samus and Link being able to throw items while in airdodge as well, and with you being able to grab items using airdodge, it makes for a deep level of item play to instantly catch and re-toss items.
Can't wait for the non meta defining glitches so we can get a 30 minute segment on melee 🙏
oh juggernaut i will miss you my son
Great vid!
In CVS2, you can RC taunts as well.
In CVS2, taunting gives your opponent meter, so you shouldn't really do them. However, a taunt can put an opponent using K Groove into the Rage state (provided the gauge is nearly full), giving you control over it. 😊
Even use it just as the round is about to end, as if they're in rage mode, they lose all of the gauge on the next round.
Good news: Jug glitch is back in MvC collection
Damn, great video! Nice to find a new channel before it gets big
Glitch is a bug that can be exploited.
Exploit is anything that is a bug, or feature, that is used or over used in a manor that can be considered unintended to gain an advantage.
Just subbed to this channel. Love the content. Your style and over all presentation is perfect. ... So glad you got your audio in order lol 😁 (Needs some MINOR tweaking, but you are 99% of the way there, bud 👍)
Banger incoming
Ain't been this excited for a new post in a minute , you a great content creator keep it up
Since day 1 of people trying to explain roll cancelling this is the first time someone properly explained and with visible examples. Good on you MrMixtape.
RIP glitch juggernaut 2000-2024
i think i saw in an asumsaus vid, the first documented person on the internet talking about wavedashing was the creator of smash maybe a day or two after melee dropped. a luigi was talking about sliding around after airdodging into the ground before landing, and sakura mentioned you can do it right after jumping. the dude pretty clearly understood the resulting mechanics from his games system. im still extremely confident in saying he had no idea how players would use and push it though, so great addition to the vid.
Hey nice ssfx6 reference! I love the background music from that game. For those wondering, I’m talking about the bgm during the street fighter alpha 2 section
Jump cancel tossing is a mechanic in smash brawl and Wii u. When dashing in those games you throw an item and you will do a dash throw. However, you can cancel a dash with a jump. Then, in the jump squat animation you can cancel the jump with a throw. Throwing this way allows you to maintain your dash momentum and do a standing throw which is faster than a dashing throw. In brawl this was a mandatory mechanic for zss, wario, dedede, etc anybody with projectiles. It allows them to connect combos that wouldn't be possible increasing their place on the tier list massively.
In ultimate they ended up just removing the mechanic entirely making dash those generally better however I always just missed this mechanic it always allowed me to kind of just do things that other people didn't know about. I don't know if that's how game should be made but in my opinion it's what made fighting games are special to me
My favorite fighting game bug is Q-Bee!
Exploit: Something that works as expected by the developers, but the consequences of its abuse where not considered by them. Yet, its principles work exactly as intended.
Glitch: Something that is not working as expected by the developers. Is a malfunction of the game... A malfunction that players make work, if you will.
Flame Iori in KoF XIII has a glitch that allows him to cancel recovery frames on his second rekka hit by inputting Maiden Masher input late.
This turns him from strong to busted. It gives him one of the biggest damage outputs if you use it once per combo, and also gives him an infinite if you don't value your hands.
Juggernaut is my favorite super villain and when i was 5 years old in like 2005 I saw MVC2 at a put put place and saw juggernaut in the Inteo of the arcade. Aka juggernaut is why i fell in love with MvC and now i am into the whole series. Aye man just talking about his mechanics specicifally helped me learn as a casual player and aye my autism happy cuz Juggernaut bruh lol. Great video by the way
One thing on jugg’s power-up, if you do his universal launcher (d/f HP) it doesn’t take away the power up so you can mix this in before tagging to add some knowledge-check minor unpredictability before expectedly tagging out.
10:48 that’s sooo cool
This was a really well made and researched video, but if I could leave 1 criticism it would be that you could have used more outsourced footage of the techniques being used in like real competitive scenarios. It's cool that you went out of your way to record so much for your own video, but I feel like some of the footage didn't exactly line up well with what you were saying at the time. Still a solid and enjoyable video though.
“I like your funny words magic man.”
I've always found it very interesting that, despite how well-known and ubiquitous roll canceling is to CvS2, every groove sees some tournament play and several characters are high tier despite not having good roll cancel options.
Didn't even mention step guard or 2G.... WACK!
Mix truly needs to play more 3D games 😔
I Remember that the arcade release my local games shop had of mortal kombat 2 had a bug for which, only if you started the game as player 2, you could just jump backwards continously and kick and the cpu would run into you. I used that trick to show fatalities and similar to people using shang tsung (yes, i have a very good memory)
20:24 or the group that makes my characters have the best portraits
I want to do your voice overs for you because I do it for work. Another dank video mate 😎
Personally, if I had to define glitch vs exploit I would say it depends on if anything breaks. Other character stops fighting, your character stops taking damage, etc is a glitch. Exploits are "legal" interactions that have unintended and more often that not beneficial outcomes.
That said, I think it's more fun to try to define them for the thought experiment. IMO, there isn't a huge practical difference. (Enjoy the engagement bump MrMixtape! ;D)
here are some i use.
in +r ino has to make use of jump installs in order to extend combos and corner pressure, any character if they use a special move that leaves them actionable airborne is able to jump install by performing it on the frame they land after a jump. this lets you jump, air dash or attack in situations where you're normally not able to, she also uses an air stall technique in order to access certain combos, blockstrings and movement options.
in tatsunoko some characters like megaman are able to act out of certain special and command normals differently depending on how they jump out of them.
in megaman's case if you for example do a j.6m input you can jump to either ascend or decend in an actionable state after making contact, this is determined by how early you press a button after jump cancelling the airborne attack, if done early the jump gains no acceleration but you're able to perform several airborne actions during this interaction.
Justice for Juggernaut. He deserves better.
wavedashing in melee is an exploit, it was put in by the devs but they didnt realize how powerful it would be. L-canceling is also an exploit if you want to see silly glitches look at character specific tech in brawl a character specific glitch you could have gone over instead is yoshi parrying in smash 64 and melee or b reversing and wave bouncing in smash 4 and smash ultimate
l-canceling is not exploit, its official name from the smash 64 website is smooth landing
Wrong on both accounts.
Wavedashing was not intentionally put in the game, it was merely left there. It's a product of how momentum is transfered between air and ground states. Air dodging isn't even the only way to trigger that kind of slide, it's merely the most convenient and universal one (see also Super Wavedash, which involves Samus' Down B instead).
L-cancellin is neither a glitch nor an exploit, it's a hidden mechanic left from 64. Back in 64, it was called Z Cancelling and removed all lag entirely instead of halving it, they nerfed it for Melee and removed after that game.
Sakurai's latest video literally has the Smash Bros. Dojo explaining L-canceling to you on screen lol
L canceling is compltetely intentional, is not a glitch
it is no longer the latest video as of literally an hour after i posted this whoops. it's the "Smash Bros Dojo!!" video
Reminds me of the Final Fantasy 1 critical bug (all hits in a single fight action are crits after the first crit), and how it defined boss fighting. And monks being offensive weapons.
I just remember doing the Cytorak Power Up glitch and going "I'M THE JUGGERNAUGHT GLITCH!" 🤣
Amazing video! Love the deep dive
Worth noting that air dodges themselves in Melee aren't all made equally. Zelda's and Peach's stall them shorter, making them much better than other character's. Additionally, when it comes to recovery, if you have to get past an edgeguarding hitbox, sometimes you kind of have to airdodge to get back. Air dodges are somewhat useable to get around hitboxes and zoning in Melee, but this isn't nearly as effective as an approach option as Brawl, and usually takes the form of "triangle jumping" in Melee, which looks like a poorly executed wavedash. Not a huge number of players actually do this, but I've seen it over the years.
Another important thing wavedashing enables in Melee, is that it allows you to be actionable out of shield with whatever option you want sooner or in better positioning than otherwise, because the animation for releasing shield in Melee is variable, but quite long, from 14 frames to 18 across the cast, so around 1/4 second. There are only a few options you can do directly from shielding (allowing you to skip this animation), however. You can grab, roll, spotdodge or jump. This last one is key, because aside from being able to cancel the jump animation before going airborne with a few things like up-special or up-smash, being able to jump out of shield means you can wavedash out of shield as soon as you aren't in shield stun (if you ever were) which sometimes means you can act a little faster than your shield releasing animation depending on character, but always means you can reposition yourself and then act faster than if you rolled at that point. The compensation for this in Brawl was to make everyone's animation for releasing shield only 7 frames, and to make it so that if your shield was hit, you can do any ground attack out of shield skipping this animation when shield stun ends, and that latter part has been retained in the series since. They decided to slow down the animation for releasing shield again though and made it a universal 11 frames after Brawl. I guess I should also mention if you're holding an item (which in a competitive setting means a character who can produce items is in the match) you can throw items out of shield, and something important here is that rolls can be cancelled into item throws, which depending on timing and character, may cause them to move themselves a bit during this throw in a technique called glide tossing. Smash 4 also introduced the ability to cancel a forward roll into a grab, which can somewhat increase the grab's range. You can also fall through platforms out of shield in every game except Ultimate.
Somehow I managed to talk about several other smash exploits when elaborating on the uses of wavedash and what replaced it. And for those not in the know, if it wasn't clear already, Smash runs at 60 fps.
I'm glad Juggie got his glitch back in the collection
I really enjoy your content :D
I saw Street Fighter in the intro and thought you were gonna talk about combos themselves not being intended, I'm not gonna lie
Another interesting melee bug/mistake is that shine can be jump canceled only when it hasn’t reflected anything, which we as changed to only when it has reflected something in all future games
the most meta-defining glitch is my opponents character turning into a top-tier when i play against them, but low-tier when i play as them. unfair!
It's got to be Jump Install. Unlike how roll cancels and Valle Custom Combos got removed in future releases, Jump Installs persisted from from their initial discovery in GGX all the way to Guilty Gear Xrd, where in-game tutorials acknowledged the mechanic and taught you how to do it.
If we're having a birthday party and we notice you have 'advanced knowledge' like these, then you simply don't get to play.
Capcom v SNK 2 is my favorite fighting game, so it's nice to see it... anywhere
Joe is my all time favorite character across all fighting games I loved him in SVC2
amazing work ive subbed
For me, a bug is something in the code that does not work "as intended." The "kill screens" in various old arcade games are bugs because the designers simply thought nobody would ever play for that long in one go, so they didn't consider what the game would try to do if someone did. As a result, you get memory overflows that cause the game to try and write half the screen with, say, data in the sound bank instead of the graphics bank.
Meanwhile, an exploit is something that works as intended on its own but interacts with another element in a way that upsets the game balance. My go-to example of an exploit is the Restoration Loop in Skyrim: enchanting works normally and alchemy works normally, it's when you use the two systems to create a positive feedback loop that you've found an exploit.
There's a glitch in MK11 with Noob Saibot that usually throws do about 13% damage but if your opponent has 20% and you try to trigger his grab brutality, it activates and he wins. With anyone else, you keep your remaining 3% health
Electric wind god fist was originally a glitch too in Tekken 3 for Jin (it's why Heihachi can't do it till Tekken 4)
Custom combo is to this day my favorite system mechanic in the SF series. It offered a cool angle that still demanded the player to have execution and was flashy as hell.
Another thing to notice about wavedashing is that it allows you to attack while retreating, making your movement options way more diverse in that regard as well.
Finally, nintendo's handling of melee's competitively depth is beyond unnerving. They did all they could to completely destroy brawl's competitive possibilities, making it a worse game as a result, all due to a warped perception that the very niche, very specific competitive community would somehow alienate the casual players. Sakurai's greatest gift was making melee, his second one would be not ever touching the game again
How is there, in 2024, still some amount on debate on whether wadashing is a glitch or not
It is litterally two mechanics working as intended, the fact that devs didn't expect people to use them together like this does not make this a glitch in any shape or form wtf
He said, outright, that exploits and glitches were going to be under the same umbrella for this video. He knew, but he wanted it in, that's just how it is
Juggernaut in re-release: _look how they massacred my boy_
neutral air dodge was in melee, it’s just never used. it was heavily buffed in brawl with it no longer halting momentum and not putting you in free fall
It also has way less landing lag in Brawl, but you still can't fast fall during it.
Wavedashing is actually not a glitch. Sakurai himself actually helped the early smash community (long before the competitive scene) discover it on online forums.
AsumSaus made a video clarifying that it isn't a glitch.
While it isn’t a glitch, air-dodging definitely wasn’t intended to be used that way. It was just a result of the games mechanics that it was possible to do so. Sakurai noticed it but he left it in because he never expected people to use it in the way they do now.
Yadda yadda yadda Sakurai knew about wavedashing as an engine quirk, and decided to keep it in
One interesting thing I've never heard talked about is that they seemingly tried to balance wavedashing. There's a 10 frame period where you can't attack while sliding, but when you think about it, thats not the case for any other kind of ground landing in melee, besides specific move endlag. And the game would be BUSTED even more if you could attack frame 1 out of a wavedash/waveland and slide at the same time. It would be the entire meta
Only other thing I can think of is maybe they put that endlag from airdodge sliding in to make sure people couldn't tri jump with air dodges and abuse invincibility
I think that was less an attempt to balance wavedashing specifically, and more for the purpose of making air dodge landing punishable. Frankly, the explanation that it was to prevent triangle jump abuse makes more sense. Spot-dodges and rolls are meant to be punishable (unless it's DDD's spot dodge in Brawl I guess).
Guilty Gear X has an interesting one.
Under normal circumstances, it's possible to kara-cancel pretty much any normal into Faultless Defense. By itself, this isn't immediately useful, but you can do this with Sweeps both in neutral and during combos. It's awkward as hell to actually input, but when done properly you can cancel the endlag of any normal that chains into Sweep for a fraction of the cost of a Roman Cancel.
Justice for juggernaut
Justice for jugs 😂lol now thats T-shirt
Something to mention as well is that even _combos_ were originally a bug back in SF2
I was low-key expecting that to be the first thing mentioned.
UPDATE: The MvC collection has been patched to re-add the Juggernaut glitch. You can toggle it on and off, and on ranked mode it's set to on.
Yep. Very happy to see that, excellent change.
No mention of the TAC glitch in MVC3 is a surprise. It's so integral to winning It's very nearly a mechanic
Hell yeah, we get to see melee
P O W E R U P !
I think itd've been more interesting for you to talk about Wobbling/Hand-offs than Wavedashing tbh.
After seeing Ness so much time I was expecting the Yoyo glitch
Juggernaut was never a problem imo, even the best players I went against dropped him from their line up after a while. Once someone did that glitch imo the priority becomes happy birthday or just bring the guy out his assist could be countered easily enough with your own assist, I believe it was anti-air would beat out most of his because of his size. But I do like your term there, 'brain-less' Cable is in my opinion much more annoying to deal with, a good Cable can get fancy sure dropping grenades, zoning, trying to trap you but it's like watching that evolution charge from monkey posture to man back to monkey as they ultimately go light medium hyper viper beam.
shout outs to the DHC glitch and TAC glitches in MVC3 and UMVC3!
funny thing about wavedashing is that the development team found it during the game's creation, and ultimately decided to leave it in because they didn't think it would have an impact on how the game was played.
How wrong they were.
Take 3 Juggernauts, laugh lol so dumb.
Too bad they patched the juggernaut glitch in the MvC collection thats coming out