I don’t know whether to say sorry that I brought up the question about the belt direction or to say thank you SO MUCH for taking the time and effort to research the belt grinding directions. Using the support bar backwards presents the possibility that clothing might get caught. I’d come up with a guard or shield of some sort. Scott Markwood reminded me about sparks might ignite if a vacuum system was attached. Thanks again all in the name of safety.
No problem Dennis. Actually, several people brought up the direction question in the comments of the first video. If there are little to no sparks I do use my Shop Vac, but it is only used for metal grinding, so not saw dust in the bin. But, If there are more sparks I take the Shop Vac off just in case.
Tom… I don’t like belt sanders due to a bad experience. So, I shy away from them as much as I can. They just appear to be a very aggressive way of removing material. They also can and do come apart instantly without notice. But, regardless of the media used to sharpen, the question is the same… into the bevel or outward. No matter whether I am sharpening a knife, lawn mower blade or plane iron I have this mental checklist: What does the edge need? What means do I have to do that? How I do that safely? Roughing is easier for me when cutting into the edge… But I keep in mind… with power tools the chance of a catch is greatest. And with a hand file I find it really uncomfortable. Finishing I always try to do outward grinds. It is just more comfortable and accurate for me to hold the bevel. For honing… soft materials force me to polish the bevel outward. With solid flat surfaces either direction works… and if I’m doing it by hand a swirl is comfortable. Based on the Tormek system: Direction does not matter to the edge. It is the fixturing and ability to hold the tool that does. I mean, if you look at their jig system it uses both directions on the grinding wheel… however the polishing wheel is never used into the bevel.
You're very closely describing the nuances of my question. We have grinding, honing, and polishing phases of the sharpening process. I see universal consensus that polishing on a power tool, which is always done with a soft material like rubber, cloth, or leather, must always be done away from the bevel. This is obviously because of the soft material and because to get the polish the speed may be higher. I also see universal consensus that grinding and honing on power tools can be done into the bevel assuming a hard abrasive material like a grinding wheel, water stone, or CBN wheel. Because the material is hard, and assuming in good condition, it is very unlikely to grab the tool edge. But what is sand paper? Is it hard or soft? Is a paper backed disc firmly glued to a steel plate hard or soft? What about cloth backed? Is a cloth backed belt properly tensioned and backed by a thick platen consider hard or soft? What it if the belt sander is low quality with a bouncy platen and a poor tensioning mechanism? And sanding belt quality varies as well. I think if you mentally group sandpaper in the "soft" material category, you will likely say "run away from the bevel." But if you mentally group sandpaper into the "hard" material category you will say "run into the bevel."
@@woodshopnerdery well put… I can’t sharpen a knife by hand, worth a darn. And, a chisel without a guide is even worse. Put a power tool into the mixture and I can wreck them in a New York minute without a jig or injure myself. So, long before internet videos were available, I learned those lessons the hard way!
Personally, down would freak me out a bit for potential dig-in reasons, but essentially in sharpening whatever works and is safe... well... works. And after watching your process it looks like both are true. I wondered about the heating, but noticed you weren't having physical discomfort, and the explanation of the system itself as a heat sink makes a ton of sense. I can't say I'd ever think of using a strip sander for this; seems like it would put a mild convex curve on the steel. (I like your system because of the big solid platen as a reference surface.) But until I wear out my water-stones, and burn out my grinder motor (not likely at this point in life), I'll keep at that while admiring how others make use of the tools they have to get the job done! Great Markwoodian follow-up video!
"Markwoodian" ha! good one. I agree, I like having a grinding surface bigger than tool. I see people swiping a bevel left to right of a thin wheel and belt and think I would never get consistent grind edge to edge.
I have had my Viel S-5 sander grinder (strip sander) for 10 years now. The belt travels down, toward the tool edge. I have sharpened knives, chisels, scissors, plane blades, etc, mostly free hand, and have yet to catch a belt. When sharpening very little pressure is put against the belt, the tool riding on the abrasive, and it is not just the sharp edge that is touching the belt. I am sure that one reason that grinding wheels and belt grinders are designed to run down is that it gives much control of the sparks, grit, etc. Running up all that stuff is shooting up into the air, and potentially into your face. Polishing and honing against a softer surface would be done with the belt travelling away from the edge. But for honing I find it takes very little time to just do it by hand.
Awesome advice, thanks for sharing your experience. I tend to agree with all your points. Especially about the light pressure. In researching this I saw some articles from within the abrasives industry saying that a leading causes of belt failure is age and over pressure.
I think the only issue running the edge into the belt might be the possibility of catching the belt with the blade. That would likely wrench it out of your hand and possibly toss it back at you. I don't like the idea of a sharp edge flying around my shop.
All I can add is that when I have used a 2x72 belt grinder to sharpen knives and axes it depended on whether I was free-handing or using a jig. With a jig I did it the way you showed, into the belt. When free-handing it is the opposite. Didn't think about it at all until this moment.
I was taught to grind away from the cutting edge whenever possible. This draws the heat into the body of the tool instead of towards the cutting edge. Example: start at the cutting edge and rotate into the body of a drill. We used a 20 in disk sander to sharpen drills that where about 1-1/2 inch and larger. So, an abrasive belt is a great an interesting way to restore a chisel edge. Heat is the enemy, so whenever you can start the grind at the edge or have the edge up when using the belt sander, the heat will go into the body of the chisel. If the cutting edge is reversed the heat is drawn toward the cutting edge. Hope that makes sense.
I always appreciate the amount of time and thought you put into your instruction and videos and would never think to question your methods knowing that. I watched your sharpening jig video and I'll admit, I was surprised you ran the belt into the iron, but I figured "this guy knows what he is doing". I recently used my belt sander to sharpen some plane irons and ran the unit flat with the belt running away from the tip of the iron, but that's just because that's how it "seemed" to make sense to me to reduce the grit of the belt hammering into the point of the bevel. But that's only because that's what "seemed" best without any real research. In the end, I'll take whatever you say as a best practice since you put so much effort into the research you do. 🙂
Thanks Jason. Yeah, I did research the direction before making the jig and first video. For one, the guy I got the draw pull idea from show grinding into the bevel. And, the Robert Sorby ProEdge is used into the bevel as well. I figured if its good enough for Robert Sorby, then it's good enough for me. But, so many comments said run it the other way, it made me take another look.
Safety first but best results . The sanding disk turns towards you when sharpening lathe chisels. No problems so far. So does the bench grinder. Never tried a bench chisel.
I think the bottom line is belt sander into the bevel vs away from the bevel, if you practice either method long enough you will get proficient at it. Personally, I've wrecked more than a few belts trying into the bevel, yet I've seen many knife makers who make it look easy. For me, I have my 8" grinder with a soft wheel at slow speeds, with a jig, spinning into the bevel for chisels and plane irons. As for knives, I have a jig to hold the knife with the blade away (trailing) from the direction of the belt.
Into the belt is much more aggressive, wears belts faster, throws more sparks and dust and is prone to tear belts. You may be able to use the attachment you made flipped upside down. That would let you grind away from the bevel, while directing the sparks down and using your dust chute. I don’t like sparks flying anywhere. It creates very poor air quality, a fire hazard and a mess. Try putting the sander horizontal and running on the quill side to sand away from the bevel. You could also run horizontally on left side and flip your rest over to sand away from the bevel and keep using your dust chute. That’s assuming there is room on the platen below your rest.
Tom, I don't have an opinion on which way to sand your tools. Seems either would be fine. Remember the "old days" of using a sharpening stone? One technique is to sharpen in a swirling pattern. So in that case the edge would be sharpened in both directions. At least in my mind. But - what's really killing me is the fact that your speed control dial isn't aligned. Mine was like yours when I got it. I finally had enough during a recent service of the headstock and aligned mine. It was so much of a pain that I'm not sure the SS logo is supposed to be parallel then set to slow. Thanks again for your videos.
Thanks Mark. Yeah, I knew the logo was not horizontal when set to slow. I guess it never bothered me because, it's only horizontal at a few speed setting anyway. But if you look at the intro of the old Shopsmith Hand-Online video intros, they have the logo horizontal at slow.
I don't have definitive or authoritative info but in thinking about this, don't bench grinders turn the stone toward the tool? So I would think that having the belt move toward the tool is fine. Still I can imagine folks wishing to proceed with the other method. Perhaps there's not a 'right' answer e.g. driving a car with an automatic transmission. Should I brake with the left foot or the right foot? And thanks for the info about cooling the blade while grinding.
Berry, I do think that personal preference is playing a role here. Yes, a grinding wheel in most cases will turn into the bevel. But, I think most people are okay with that because it is a hard surface that is unlikely to catch. Verses a soft surface that is likely to catch, like say a leather or rubber wheel. All would agree that on a leather wheel you should polish away from the bevel. So, what is a sanding belt? Is it more like a grinding wheel or more like a leather wheel? To my it's more similar to a hard grinding wheel.
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I don’t know whether to say sorry that I brought up the question about the belt direction or to say thank you SO MUCH for taking the time and effort to research the belt grinding directions. Using the support bar backwards presents the possibility that clothing might get caught. I’d come up with a guard or shield of some sort. Scott Markwood reminded me about sparks might ignite if a vacuum system was attached.
Thanks again all in the name of safety.
No problem Dennis. Actually, several people brought up the direction question in the comments of the first video. If there are little to no sparks I do use my Shop Vac, but it is only used for metal grinding, so not saw dust in the bin. But, If there are more sparks I take the Shop Vac off just in case.
Tom… I don’t like belt sanders due to a bad experience. So, I shy away from them as much as I can. They just appear to be a very aggressive way of removing material. They also can and do come apart instantly without notice.
But, regardless of the media used to sharpen, the question is the same… into the bevel or outward. No matter whether I am sharpening a knife, lawn mower blade or plane iron I have this mental checklist:
What does the edge need?
What means do I have to do that?
How I do that safely?
Roughing is easier for me when
cutting into the edge… But I keep in mind… with power tools the chance of a catch is greatest. And with a hand file I find it really uncomfortable.
Finishing I always try to do outward grinds. It is just more comfortable and accurate for me to hold the bevel.
For honing… soft materials force me to polish the bevel outward. With solid flat surfaces either direction works… and if I’m doing it by hand a swirl is comfortable.
Based on the Tormek system: Direction does not matter to the edge. It is the fixturing and ability to hold the tool that does. I mean, if you look at their jig system it uses both directions on the grinding wheel… however the polishing wheel is never used into the bevel.
You're very closely describing the nuances of my question. We have grinding, honing, and polishing phases of the sharpening process.
I see universal consensus that polishing on a power tool, which is always done with a soft material like rubber, cloth, or leather, must always be done away from the bevel. This is obviously because of the soft material and because to get the polish the speed may be higher.
I also see universal consensus that grinding and honing on power tools can be done into the bevel assuming a hard abrasive material like a grinding wheel, water stone, or CBN wheel. Because the material is hard, and assuming in good condition, it is very unlikely to grab the tool edge.
But what is sand paper? Is it hard or soft? Is a paper backed disc firmly glued to a steel plate hard or soft? What about cloth backed? Is a cloth backed belt properly tensioned and backed by a thick platen consider hard or soft? What it if the belt sander is low quality with a bouncy platen and a poor tensioning mechanism? And sanding belt quality varies as well.
I think if you mentally group sandpaper in the "soft" material category, you will likely say "run away from the bevel." But if you mentally group sandpaper into the "hard" material category you will say "run into the bevel."
@@woodshopnerdery well put… I can’t sharpen a knife by hand, worth a darn. And, a chisel without a guide is even worse. Put a power tool into the mixture and I can wreck them in a New York minute without a jig or injure myself. So, long before internet videos were available, I learned those lessons the hard way!
Personally, down would freak me out a bit for potential dig-in reasons, but essentially in sharpening whatever works and is safe... well... works. And after watching your process it looks like both are true. I wondered about the heating, but noticed you weren't having physical discomfort, and the explanation of the system itself as a heat sink makes a ton of sense. I can't say I'd ever think of using a strip sander for this; seems like it would put a mild convex curve on the steel. (I like your system because of the big solid platen as a reference surface.) But until I wear out my water-stones, and burn out my grinder motor (not likely at this point in life), I'll keep at that while admiring how others make use of the tools they have to get the job done! Great Markwoodian follow-up video!
"Markwoodian" ha! good one. I agree, I like having a grinding surface bigger than tool. I see people swiping a bevel left to right of a thin wheel and belt and think I would never get consistent grind edge to edge.
I have had my Viel S-5 sander grinder (strip sander) for 10 years now. The belt travels down, toward the tool edge. I have sharpened knives, chisels, scissors, plane blades, etc, mostly free hand, and have yet to catch a belt. When sharpening very little pressure is put against the belt, the tool riding on the abrasive, and it is not just the sharp edge that is touching the belt. I am sure that one reason that grinding wheels and belt grinders are designed to run down is that it gives much control of the sparks, grit, etc. Running up all that stuff is shooting up into the air, and potentially into your face.
Polishing and honing against a softer surface would be done with the belt travelling away from the edge. But for honing I find it takes very little time to just do it by hand.
Awesome advice, thanks for sharing your experience. I tend to agree with all your points. Especially about the light pressure. In researching this I saw some articles from within the abrasives industry saying that a leading causes of belt failure is age and over pressure.
I think the only issue running the edge into the belt might be the possibility of catching the belt with the blade. That would likely wrench it out of your hand and possibly toss it back at you. I don't like the idea of a sharp edge flying around my shop.
Good point Michael, that is a hazard to consider. And if I free hand sharpening it be even more concerning.
All I can add is that when I have used a 2x72 belt grinder to sharpen knives and axes it depended on whether I was free-handing or using a jig. With a jig I did it the way you showed, into the belt. When free-handing it is the opposite. Didn't think about it at all until this moment.
Great insight Grant. I have to agree that when free handing it I would also naturally tend to grind away from the bevel.
I was taught to grind away from the cutting edge whenever possible. This draws the heat into the body of the tool instead of towards the cutting edge. Example: start at the cutting edge and rotate into the body of a drill.
We used a 20 in disk sander to sharpen drills that where about 1-1/2 inch and larger. So, an abrasive belt is a great an interesting way to restore a chisel edge.
Heat is the enemy, so whenever you can start the grind at the edge or have the edge up when using the belt sander, the heat will go into the body of the chisel. If the cutting edge is reversed the heat is drawn toward the cutting edge.
Hope that makes sense.
That’s a great point Gregory! Thanks for sharing the information.
I always appreciate the amount of time and thought you put into your instruction and videos and would never think to question your methods knowing that. I watched your sharpening jig video and I'll admit, I was surprised you ran the belt into the iron, but I figured "this guy knows what he is doing". I recently used my belt sander to sharpen some plane irons and ran the unit flat with the belt running away from the tip of the iron, but that's just because that's how it "seemed" to make sense to me to reduce the grit of the belt hammering into the point of the bevel. But that's only because that's what "seemed" best without any real research. In the end, I'll take whatever you say as a best practice since you put so much effort into the research you do. 🙂
Thanks Jason. Yeah, I did research the direction before making the jig and first video. For one, the guy I got the draw pull idea from show grinding into the bevel. And, the Robert Sorby ProEdge is used into the bevel as well. I figured if its good enough for Robert Sorby, then it's good enough for me. But, so many comments said run it the other way, it made me take another look.
Safety first but best results . The sanding disk turns towards you when sharpening lathe chisels. No problems so far. So does the bench grinder. Never tried a bench chisel.
Thanks James. That's a good point about the sharpening jig, I guess if a catch occurred there, it would flick the tool handle first into the air.
I think the bottom line is belt sander into the bevel vs away from the bevel, if you practice either method long enough you will get proficient at it. Personally, I've wrecked more than a few belts trying into the bevel, yet I've seen many knife makers who make it look easy. For me, I have my 8" grinder with a soft wheel at slow speeds, with a jig, spinning into the bevel for chisels and plane irons. As for knives, I have a jig to hold the knife with the blade away (trailing) from the direction of the belt.
Into the belt is much more aggressive, wears belts faster, throws more sparks and dust and is prone to tear belts. You may be able to use the attachment you made flipped upside down. That would let you grind away from the bevel, while directing the sparks down and using your dust chute.
I don’t like sparks flying anywhere. It creates very poor air quality, a fire hazard and a mess. Try putting the sander horizontal and running on the quill side to sand away from the bevel. You could also run horizontally on left side and flip your rest over to sand away from the bevel and keep using your dust chute. That’s assuming there is room on the platen below your rest.
When you sharpen a knife on a stone, you move the cutting edge into the stone, so when using a grinder or belt it should be the same way
Thank Jeff, that’s a great point!
Tom, I don't have an opinion on which way to sand your tools. Seems either would be fine. Remember the "old days" of using a sharpening stone? One technique is to sharpen in a swirling pattern. So in that case the edge would be sharpened in both directions. At least in my mind.
But - what's really killing me is the fact that your speed control dial isn't aligned. Mine was like yours when I got it. I finally had enough during a recent service of the headstock and aligned mine. It was so much of a pain that I'm not sure the SS logo is supposed to be parallel then set to slow.
Thanks again for your videos.
Thanks Mark. Yeah, I knew the logo was not horizontal when set to slow. I guess it never bothered me because, it's only horizontal at a few speed setting anyway. But if you look at the intro of the old Shopsmith Hand-Online video intros, they have the logo horizontal at slow.
My vote is the way that you did it, belt down in to the bevel.
Thanks Mike.
I was worried the whole video that the edge of the tool was going to catch the belt
I'm with you Chris I have the same concern. I'm also a bit concern about sparks shooting upward. Sort of a fear vs. fear situation.
I have not sharpened tools with a belt sander so I cannot make any recommend. However, I’m interested in your conclusion.
Yeah, you might disappointed. I think I'm heading to a big fat "depends." 😁
I don't have definitive or authoritative info but in thinking about this, don't bench grinders turn the stone toward the tool? So I would think that having the belt move toward the tool is fine. Still I can imagine folks wishing to proceed with the other method. Perhaps there's not a 'right' answer e.g. driving a car with an automatic transmission. Should I brake with the left foot or the right foot? And thanks for the info about cooling the blade while grinding.
Berry, I do think that personal preference is playing a role here. Yes, a grinding wheel in most cases will turn into the bevel. But, I think most people are okay with that because it is a hard surface that is unlikely to catch. Verses a soft surface that is likely to catch, like say a leather or rubber wheel. All would agree that on a leather wheel you should polish away from the bevel. So, what is a sanding belt? Is it more like a grinding wheel or more like a leather wheel? To my it's more similar to a hard grinding wheel.
My opinion is pineapple is not a pizza topping!
🤪
@@woodshopnerdery I appreciate your research.