Uh Oh, We Upset the Shopsmith Haters: Calling Out Your List!
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- Hater - "You can get mispriced bench top tools that do a way better job than a Shopsmith AND for less money!"
Woodshop Nerdery - "Okay, what tools are those?"
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Okay Shopsmith Haters, list your better tools for cheaper prices here in the comments.
Well done. I bought my Shopsmith Mark 5 brand new with the Shopsmith bandsaw in 1963 (brown colors) for $315.00 with the 240v Motor! That was a big purchase for me back then. Still using it today.
Always appreciate a legit apples to apples comparison to silence haters. I'm not a Shopsmith guy, but I appreciate the tool(s) and the users of Shopsmiths. Tool tribalism is a curious endeavor, and ultimately futile IMHO. Keep the pressure on the haters. Love that your community has unified to defend the tool you love
Thanks for the support, Jared!
Not quite apples to apples. I won't re-post the comment I made calling out where I disagree but it was a mostly fair comparison if you ignore the pricing argument he made for the mid-range.
@@genesishep I think you misunderstand, I don’t compare a used Shopsmith to new tools, the haters do. Direct quote from a hater, “you can get BETTER mid-priced bench top tools for CHEAPER than even a USED Shopsmith”
@@woodshopnerdery I may have, I'd have to re-watch your video to figure out where I would have missed that distinction. I thought you were implying that this was something that the "haterS" were saying not something that only one hater claimed. That was why I felt it necessary to say wait a minute let's talk about this. I saw your response to my original reply above and I commented there.
I appreciate your interaction. Truly ✌🏽
Perversely, I owe John Malecki and his malarkey video a debt of gratitude. In one poorly conceived hit piece he managed to introduce me to the astonishing ShopSmith AND bear out my lifelong belief in the power of RTFM! The blowback that video generated from what is obviously a passionate, active and extensive SS community has probably done more to raise the profile of the SS in the last few weeks than all the advertising and promotion the manufacturer has done in years. In fact, I’d lay money on the contention that the furore has single-handedly introduced the SS to a new generation of woodworkers. That’s a pretty impressive achievement right there.
Haters gonna hate. It’s what they do, no matter how irrational it seems. It’s their reason for getting out of bed. That there’s a small, noisy bunch of tool tribalists that seem to think that the SS is the work of the Devil, and that people who like the SS are worshippers of Satan, doesn’t surprise me in the least. But, again, gratitude. Without the dumb-dumbs, I’d never have known about the the closest thing to a genuinely universal tool ever to grace the woodworking universe.
Rise up, SS community - your time is now! Time to show the wider UA-cam woodworking community what the ShopSmith can do. What you, as woodworkers, can do with the ShopSmith. Consider the gauntlet thrown down!
Well said Julian, and thanks for the support.
I watched Malecki's video and also his last one about Shopsmith also. First one did raise my blood pressure a bit. However his way of speaking period on his video's can do that. For those who love mastering tools the SHOPSMITH is a very good tool for its price. For those "I don't need no stinking manual" people it is not for you.
I have seen these Shop Smiths but never really knew anything about them. I never saw any in the professional trades and I am not a hobbyist woodworker. After seeing his followup video this has led me down a rabbit hole that for the life of me has me looking at Ebay for one of these when I can get one. They look very cool and fun and I love restoring older tools.
@@cdanielh128 I wish I had found you a few years ago. I had almost everything of a Mark5 with upgrade kit and GAVE most of it away I thought to another woodworker who turned around and sold it. You should be able with Careful research to find all that you need. Probably at a decent price. Might I ask what state you live in. I still have the basic unit.
Thanks for the comparisons. One thing that was not mentioned was floor space. Small shops don't have all that floor space like John has for all the individual pieces of equipment compared to the shop smith. My shop is small and floor space is at a premium. I am a hobby shop, not a full-time multiple-person production warehouse. I paid $500 for my Shopsmith with all the attachments except the bandsaw component. To me, $500 versus $5000 is a no-brainer.
You're welcome Timothy. I did hold back the storage space point because the "hater's" argument is that other tools beat Shopsmith on PERFORMANCE. So I wanted to compare the performance specs toe-to-toe, showing that even if you take space out of the equation, Shopsmith still has better specs.
Great video. I saw a 510 for 400 I. My neck of the woods. Add a speed reducer for the drill press and lathe and there is nothing that compares. I haven’t tried it on the band saw but I think it would work on metal. The jointer is the only tool that gets beat with 6” used Delta.
That’s a great deal!
Tom… you are now the official Shopsmith Nerding Sensei!
Thanks for bringing the data. That was a fascinating excursion.
It’ll be interesting to see what tools the ‘experts’ throw at you.
Those of us whose experience and results have seen through the rhetoric aligned against the SS are on your side! Let me know if you need help turning the rotisserie on this roast. 🤓
Thanks Dave, I figure I've been playing defense long enough. Time to make the haters play a little D.
@@woodshopnerdery Wax on sensei!
I think this has been a long time coming. Go get'em Tom!
Thanks Drew!
Damn !. I just bought a Mark 520 w/ bandsaw for $325 in great condition. You did not mention the rip fence. I absolutely love the beefy level operation of that fence combined with capacity and work height is a real plus for me !
Congrats that’s a great deal! Yes the Shopsmith Pro Fence is really nice, but the fence on the other table saw was nice too.
GREAT review! I admire you for doing the extensive research involved in comparing just one brand with Shopsmith, making fantastic videos, doing woodworking, and your full time job(whatever that is)!
And you repeat your efforts regularly with new topics. AMAZING!
Thanks so much for sharing the results of your dedication to your passion for woodworking, and Shopsmith products! Keep it up! jim
Thanks Jim!
Thanks for defending this wonderful machine. Here's an additional SS advantage: I often clamp the workpiece to the table and then extend the quill to draw the disk to the work. This gives me much more control, I think it is safer, and allows me to sand oddly shaped pieces (banjo necks, in my case) that would be difficult to accurately feed into a spinning disk. Also, I can change disks without changing my setup, so I can work through three different grits of sandpaper. There is simply no comparison. The SS gets the job done for me, and the Gizzly would not.
I know Dan, imagine peeling off a PSA disc each time on a stand alone to change Grits? Take about slow and wasteful.
Good job on this comparison. My guess is that no hater will give you a list.
Thanks! I really do hope to see some lists.
I don't see why there is any hate for any tool, while I'm sure there are draw backs in many areas for any tool, if they perform as they should (or as advertised) then it is a good tool. All this said be sure to read your manuals, investigate the pros and cons and be safety concise of what your doing.
Great video Nerdery and I agree with you, the Shopsmith tool is an amazing value. One thing, did I miss it or did you not mention the Shaper and Router capabilities of the Shopsmith, two extras to include in the cost calculations. One area where Shopsmith falls down is on some of the accessories, for example, Grizzly is offering the G0959 12" wide (6" planer height) Combo bench top Planer/Jointer with Helical Cutterhead, 1-1/2 HP, 120V, single-phase motor for USD 1200. Whereas Shopsmith's planer while 12" costs USD 1690 and the jointer is only 4" costing USD 637, total is USD 2370 for the Shopsmith accessories: Grizzly for the win.
Thanks, Mr Gunn. Yes, I stuck to the 5 core tools of the traditional Mark V because if I made it too complicated it might discourage people from providing their list. I agree regarding the accessories, there are more options and better deals in the new market. If my Shopsmith Thickness planner stopped working today, I would not buy a new one due to the price. I would look at alternatives like the Grizzley you mentioned or the Dewalt DW735.
Tom,
Very nerdy! Every tool manufacturer makes compromises with cost, quality, features, etc.before releasing a design. As buyers, we look at the tool and decide our own balance before making a buy decision. In my case, space and cost were the biggest considerations and I am willing to live with the other compromises in the Shopsmith designs. My grandkids love their table and chairs and care not what table saw I used. My wife likes her rolling pin, even though I used a Shopsmith lathe. She also likes that she can pull her car into the garage and not park in the street because I have. Garage full of stand alone tools. The Shopsmith fits my needs well, it is a well built and designed machine to boot. I expect it will be in use well after I am gone. Stand alone tools fit others needs better, so be it. Just live and let live. And I look forward to more build videos so you can teach me new techniques.
I agree James, live and let live. That is what is so wonderous about our times, look at all the choices we all to pick the tools that best suit us, from antiques, to low -cost disposable, to high quality heirlooms.
Building boxes is easy, but building special projects is something that shop smith shines above all other machines. I would challenge these hatters to produce many of the projects I have produced. I have all the tools and them all. 31 years as shop teacher.
Great Point Ronnie, it sure is a very flexible system.
There are a ton of ways to fit out a shop. I have all OWWM in my shop. but as such....the Shopsmith is American made and well built like my OWWM. Another point for Shopsmith.
Great comparison. I've been waiting for a public challenge like this although I don't expect many will rise to the challenge. IMO the comparisons you used favored the other products. As you obviously know a universal motor that loses torque as speed decreases is not in the same ballpark as the Shopsmith variable speed system that increase torque in those conditions. That applies to every one of the Shopsmith functions giving them more than any 3:2 or 3:1 rating could define. The comparison is also based on common concepts of the functions of these tools. Shopsmith machines integrate their individual features to create new functionality for conventional tools. As an example no ordinary disk sander will combine a quill mounted sanding disk with depth stop and a fence on a table that can be mounted over 8 feet away and used to size pieces to the exact same length with a finished edges. Similarly, ordinary drill presses aren't made with bearings that would allow them to be used as routers, shapers, or drum sanders. Nor do they have upgrade options to operate those tools above or below the table or turn them into oscillating spindle sanders, again because they can't be used for those functions.
One point against the Shopsmith, and also one additional scoring point against the Shopsmith, you gave Shopsmith a 2 for blade tilt. It deserves no more than a 1 in your scoring system.
Great Points, Ed! Yes , I could see lowering the table tilt score for the Shopsmith to either 1 or 0, that's fair. There are some relatively inexpensive bearing support systems for drill press drum sanders that compensate somewhat for the lack of lateral bearing support you mentioned. Pretty interesting devices.
As a horizontal boring machine, the Shopsmith is worth having just for this function if you can pick up a clean machine used and share the shop space.
I used the horizontal boring feature that will be in my next project video, and I swear I could not have done the operation without the Shopsmith.
The craftsman operating and setting up the equipment is the most important part of the equation.
Point well made Bruce.
Typo in your table for the disk sander. You said 20 pages in the Shopsmith manual of instruction in the video. The table in your video read 2. Not nitpicking, Tom, just being honest.
Great catch, thanks Chad. I will flog the editor first thing tomorrow. 😀
@@woodshopnerdery As you should.
Having electronic variable speed for a drill press is fantastic.
I have the Grizzly G0702 sander. It is a good machine. I have been very happy with the machine, purchased perhaps 10 years ago. I agree variable speed would be preferred. You did not mention dust collection. The Grizzly has good dust collection. I do not know whether the ShopSmith sander has dust collection.
The Grizzly sanders mitre gauge is not only low quality, but the table has non-standard slot widths/depth which is very frustrating. Edit, the slot is 5/8in wide x 1/4in deep.
The slot is smaller than the typical 3/4in slot so I cannot use my Incra mitre gauge on the sander. I could mount the bar on a decent mitre gauge, but I rarely use the mitre gauge on the sander.
I had a Craftsman radial arm bench drill press many years ago. This design has a LOT of flex, which I would expect happens with the Grizzly model.
If the Grizzly wood lathe states it has a DC motor, then it is likely a real DC motor, not universal. It will not scream like the Grizzly universal motor on the table saw. It will have a variable DC controller board.
Dave.
Yeah, I saw the dust collection on the Grizzly sander, looks nice. Like I said in the video all the tools looked nice. Yes, the Shopsmith disc sander has excellent dust collection. It uses the same guard as the table saw feature with build in dust collection. Now I do run a mind-range true dust collection with decent CFM though.
BTW - The Shopsmith miter bar is 23/32nd, which is 1/32 smaller than the common 3/4. So if your Grizzly has that same measurements you might look into picking a Shopsmith miter gauge off ebay. I would also measure the depth too, to be sure.
Yes, I did not explain the DC and Universal motor thing right. I was trying to elude to the fact that both can vary speed by voltage/amperage. But an AC induction motor varies speed by AC Cycles, which in the USA is fixed to 60 hz. In any case I gave that lathe the highest rating for the motor.
G0842 has a Reeves drive and the Shopsmith comes with electronic speed control Even if you buy the more exp0ensive Griz lathe, shopsmith is still better if spindle size/robustness is not taken into account.
One distinction missed in the comparison is the ability to “borrow” setups between modes. This capability greatly increases the Shopsmith’s performance in my opinion.
True, Dennis. I did use that feature on my Mark .5 model build. Very handy.
Two things you could add to the SS list. The drill press can use the floor as a table for much taller pieces without going to the horizontal position and the work piece could be steadied and clamped to the table by using the table in the tables saw position, lowered to match the drill bit position needed. Second, when comparing to the higher end alternatives, you didn't mention the additional two features of the Mark 7 using the headstock under the table. And just as a side note, for the $1200 John also got the bandsaw and the jointer. Take those away and the used SS that he bought would probably sell for about $500 or less. SS all the way! Blessings, Glen
Great points Glen. Yes, I left off the Bandsaw and Jointer for simplification purposes. I think Malecki probably also had some shaper bits and pieces in those boxes but left that out too.
I got mine for 500, with everything he got except the jointer and table upgrade. But I own a decent jobsite tablesaw so I don't really care about the table. Craigslist in my area usually has one or two available for $500-$1000, pretty equivalent to what he got, give or take an attachment. Honestly, if everything on his wasn't brand new in the box I'd say he overpaid for it.
All I'm going to say is next Saturday I will pick up the Mark V I just bought off an elderly gentleman who is no longer doing anymore wood work. He has more tooling to go with it then you can imagine. All for cheaper then going to Homedepot and buying a single table saw.
I don't have the room or the $$ to go out and buy all new, I have looked at SS for years and finally pulled the pin.
Congratulations on the "new to you" Shopsmith. Make sure to get a copy of the book "Power Tool Woodworking For Everyone," and have fun!
The Commie's Workshop recommends Harbor Freight Tools, lol. My Shopsmith handles a 5x10 sheet of plywood. It has an infeed table and a full outfeed table, and I enjoy the set up process, it's calming to the mind.
I agree, thinking things through can help build confidence in the operation.
you missed the 6 x 48 sanding belt and I use the heck out of that.
I think he is just comparing the 5 main machines you have. the drill press and boring machine is leapes above and beyond what most people have in their shop.
The other guys don't have you, Scott, or Mike Young. That's got to be worth a few points.
Thanks, James, I appreciate the compliment.
I got my first Shopsmith back in the 70's from a local dealer when they still had dealers. I was in 2 bedroom 1st floor apartment and used the Shopsmith in second bedroom. There's no way I could have put in multiple tools. So, it was only solution. And, I also had the jointer, bandsaw, belt sander, etc. You didn't even mention comparing all the accessory tools that run off the Shopsmith that take advantage of good motor and easy variable speed.
Subscribed;. a Very rational video. I have a shop full of full sized tools, including a 1944 Whitney 177 Table saw and three full sized lathes. I have thought about adding a shop smith because it would add functionality to the shop.
I really enjoy using my Shopsmith equipment. I recommend it, especially if you find one used at a good price. Obliviously not comparable to your industrial grade kit, but I bet you would have fun.
I'd add another disk sander ShopSmith advantage. You can buy extra disks and be able to easily change between grits.
So true Rex. I held that one back for when/if someone dings Shopsmith for change over speed.
This the best report I have ever seen. I love my Shopsmith!
Thanks Bill!
Tom, while I appreciate your passion and intellectual rigor, there simply isn't enough Ex-Lax. It doesn't matter whose daddy can beat up the other daddies. I use a Shopsmith and a bunch of hand tools because that mix works well for me and I can still park my truck in my garage. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go work some wood.
Thanks Dave, have fun on those projects!
I went into Rockler yesterday to get some tongue in groove router bits. The sales person asked what kind of Router I had. I told him that I have a SS. He didn’t say anything but his expression said it all.
I’m a member of San Diego Fine Woodworkers. I joined them so I could attend some of their classes. Every instructor I’ve had there scoffed at SS. I took a Lathe Turning Class and the instructor commenced to tell me everything that was wrong with SS Lathe. However, when I asked, he had never owned or used a SS.
Sorry that happened to you. I get the same and I've heard the same from many other Shopsmith owners. That's a big reason make these videos.
So what do these experts use? Is there an actual higher end consumer grade line of wood working tools with the breadth and depth of knowledge Shopsmith has? Seventy five years of making tools has to be a positive! I suppose these experts have gymnasium sized rooms full of tools they probably use once a month? With a Shopsmith the tool gets used when one is in the shop, which should bring one confidence every time a tools to turned on! Looking at your tools and watching them collect dust does you and the tools no good. For me and my small shop Shopsmith works fine.
Did you stand up for yourself?
After having watched this video I plan on picking up a cheap DeltaShop to test out the concept and maybe later on resell and upgrade to a SS. I'm very sorry you are closing your channel! but be reassured it will still provide invaluable information to many beginners with big ideas just like me!
Shopsmith haters are a joke. My $1200 SS also came with the bandsaw, jointer, and dust collector. Even if the stand alone tools were better and cheaper, where would I put them? I am a typical Shopsmith woodworker. My shop is half of a two car garage. For me, the choice is Shopsmith or no woodworking at all. If the SS was poor quality, I would choose not to work wood. I have made everything from a boat to fine furniture. If I had a large shop I would likely have expensive stand alone tools as well as large assembly tables. But that is not my reality. Shopsmiths are designed and made for people like me and they are extremely well made. My first $200 SS was made in 1954. My “new” one was made in 1997. The company still supports any of the machines and you can call and talk to a real person if you need help. How rare is that in today’s world?
Oh boy your going to get it now, poke the bear too much and you'll get a nasty booboo. But my guess it will be crickets we hear from the haters. Excellent work, thanks for sharing.
I hope not, I'm looking forward to getting some tool lists! We shall see . . . But yeah thanks for the support!
Maybe Shopsmith should consider giving Mr. Malecki a commission on all the Shopsmiths he has helped them sell !!
I own a mix of fixed and Shopsmith tools. With the exception of my Drill press (Old Craftsman) and my big Fox vacuum, everything is on wheels which is a great help in a limited shop area. Yes, I much prefer using my Makita job site saw for 95% of sawing. However, having several SS bandsaws with different blades and a host of other attachments with several motor stands allows me to make essentially anything I can dream up.
Came to this channel 9 months too late. Thanks for all the info!
you use what you want and they can use what they want. this is comparable to the middle school disagreements i have to solve at work.
But you do solve them right? You don't ignore them and hope they go away I assume.
I love how you and Scott came in like adults and use facts and helpful information as your weapon of choice. You've both still nuked that dork butnit was classy.
Shopsmith also makes an excellent stand alone planer.
I have the 12 inch thickness planer that I bought used. Great value and love it.
I’m not sure about a Shopsmith makes you a “better” woodworker. Either system has it’s efficiency’s to be learned which contributes to being a good woodworker. Here’s what I did, watched John Malachi’s video for about 20 seconds and saw it was ridiculous and irresponsible. Just a revenue generator. I’ve always wanted a Shopsmith but couldn’t afford one. Buying tools one at a time made good budget sense. I also had a large work area then . What John’s video did was bring me back to looking at Shopsmith as a solution to my small work area now. I sold my table saw awhile back because it was too large and went the track saw route. This weekend armed with lots of knowledge from you, Mike Young and others I purchased a ‘93 Mark 5 with full 520 upgrades, bandsaw, jointer, router table almost every other upgrade and ancillary’s for $1500. It’s going to take some elbow grease to make it look new again but that’s half the fun. These are fantastic quality machines that are completely future proofed, will last several lifetimes and takes up a quarter of the space the tools it’s replacing did. Like my mom used to say, “Take a couple of bites and if you still don’t like it you don’t have to eat it”. I’ve had this machine for a weekend and I can change setups in seconds but I have been practicing and watching UA-cam videos about it. Also I am taking the time to read the manual but then I do have an attention span. Thanks for your videos 😊. Growth rings is another channel that is fantastic.
Wow, congrats on the fantastic deal! You've got a great machine on your hands.
Just to clarify, I believe woodworking education, which Shopsmith provides as a feature of their tools, make you a better woodworker. I stand by that belief, but sorry if I didn't make it clear in the video.
@@woodshopnerdery i agree with that statement. Keep the great videos coming I love what you’re doing.
i swear, there isn't a hobby out there that doesn't have people armchair hating each other over something vs just enjoying the hobby and sharing the results. Painting models? your paint drools, mine rules. Mountain Bike? My frame is better than your frame. Cars? lol. Boats? Apple vs Android, Apple vs Windows, lawn mowers, you name it :D
Yeah it's too bad, Tom. I've been into mountain biking, motorcycles, cars, electronics, rock bands, and other hobbies to. I gave all those up to enjoy woodworking and I do enjoy it and I have many many videos sharing the results.
There are a lot of old Shop Smith tools out there for low dollars. Mine happily was free so unbeatable. Only gripe is Shopsmith has a toolrest that could be improved but still a good lathe.
Very true James. Shopsmith has made some upgrades to the tool rest over the years including offering the Universal Tool Rest attachment. Might be worth looking into.
@@woodshopnerdery Oh I am gotta save the dollars and then......
I have both a Shopsmith and legit stand alone shop tools and benchtop versions, Shopsmith is not a bad tool, lose points for setup time to change tooling, for most part I use mine as a lathe on one side and 12 inch sander on other side, always felt unsafe when using most tablesaw mode, bandsaw is very small, jointer is pain in butt to set up, if you only have a little space Shopsmith is good but avoid the tablesaw, ok for simple straight cuts, but angled cuts will scare most people with tilting table. A fully set up Shopsmith new would be around $5500-6000, for jointer, lathe, sander, and bandsaw plus Mark 7 with table saw. Can easily find better tools that are more convenient for cheaper. Better to have a few tool that do each one thing awesome and fast then have one tool that does everything ok and takes forever to switch between tools. Only my opinion having used both for many years.
Dennis, you said "Can easily find better tools that are more convenient for cheaper." Which tools are those? If you give me a list I'll add it to the follow up video.
@@woodshopnerdery You realize that a new Shopsmith Mark 7 with, jointer, bandsaw, lathe, drill press and 12 inch disk sander cost about $7000 USD.
Grizzly G0771Z 10 inch 2 HP hybrid table saw $1195
Grizzly G7948 12 speed 20 inch drill press $995
Shop Fox #W1770 21 inch bandsaw $850
Jet # JJP-12 12 inch Jointer/Planer $858
Laguna LAG-MSANDB1248110 12 inch disk sander/belt sander combo $899
Jet 719600WL 18 x 40 Wood lathe $714
Total for these tools is about $5500 and this was just a fast search, you cannot base results on specs and give there manual a 3 rating as it is useless anyways. These tools need to be compared on setup time, and actual use and finished results.
Who buys new? Used shopsmiths are cheap cheap cheap. Set up.and changeover doesn't take any time at all. You just don't understand your machine. That's fine i suppose. Many people don't know how to use their tools. Personally I prefer separate tools most of the time. I think we all do. However your argument is just bad.
Don't forget the bandsaw!
Yep, it's a good one!
Also, ShopSmith has about 30 ShopSmith machines in their manufacturing plant to create new Shopsmiths! Industrial quality, industrial performance!!
How many competitors are gonna be around 30, 40, 50 years from now and still crush it?!
Estate sales are excellent source of Shopsmith.
I hear people get great deals there, I wish I had time to go.
As long as it does the job that you want it to do for a price you can afford it doesn't matter. That's what I've learned when I started woodworking. I read crape about old Aussie carter planes that they are bad and can't do fine woodworking. I bought inti this idea that you need high spec stuff. Then a friend broight around a falcon hand plane and it ran like a dream I went out and bought carter, falcons, records, Sargent's and stanley planes. They all needed some tuning, they all do the same work.
Great point! The tools are important, be we can't underestimate the impact of skill and technique!
The Shopsmith with a PowerPro headstock has electronic variable speed which allows the drill press to go slower for metalworking. It can also go to higher speeds for woodworking. DC motors are not universal motors they are DC only the line voltage is converted to DC electronically to run the DC motor DC motors have a perm magnet “stator” or “field “ the armature is wound and woks from brushes. The trend now is “brushless” Dc motor where the magnets are on the rotor and windings on the stator-and electronically driven by DC “pulses”.
Great points, Rex. I didn’t go into detail about the motor but but did not make my point very clearly either. I was trying to distinguish between the induction motor speed fixed to the AC hz, verses universal and dc motors where the speed is more easily controlled via voltage/amperage.
I gave $200 for my Shopsmith with TWO extras, the bandsaw and the jigsaw. I assume the guys that hate the setup time when switching form station to station, I can only assume ALL their tools are running all the time and the are careening from tool to tool on roller skates.
I agree Mike, there is setup on stationary tools too, which they all seem to pretend there isn't. I guess they us the same 3/4 inch bandsaw blade for everything, right?
@@woodshopnerdery right!
I saw pictures of some of the most beautiful tools made by Grizzly that I've ever seen but I couldn't make a visual comparison due to you not showing a picture of the Shopsmith . If I'm in the market to purchase a vehicle I can't determine whats best for me without pictures of all my choices.
None of my tools are for sale.
@@woodshopnerdery What kind of a response is that!
I seriously doubt you'll convince the haters. I've ran into only a few and they either never had a ShopSmith or had one and never learned to set it up and use it. Both types have become "experts" on what they don't understand. I've got a 510 with a traditional headstock and a 520 with a power pro. I've used ShopSmith for years and am still being impressed on the versatility and accuracy of the machines.
Towards the end when you brought in the higher end machines to compare and then listed the new Mark 7's price as a comparison, to be fair you would have had to reevaluate your lists. With the PowerPro head the speed ranges for the lathe, drill press as well as the ability to reverse would tip the scale drastically in ShopSmith's favor.
I agree Daniel, I won't changer hater's minds, but I might make it more difficult for them to misinform other people.
Yes, I did miscommunicate the comparison framework. I intentionally compared a Shopsmith Mark V 510 circa early 90's to new mid range and higher end tools. I did that because that's the statement I see all the time, "You can buy new tools that will do a better job for cheaper prices than a USED Shopsmith." I would like to know where these people are shopping!
I'll work on cleaning up the comparison issue in the follow up video. But it's going to be brutal! Can you imagine the cost of buying 7 stand-alone tools with 2HP DVR motors? But, you and several others point this out, so I will show no mercy.
@@woodshopnerdery Making it more difficult to inform others is an admirable goal.
@@woodshopnerdery Trying to argue with haters is futile. A friend of mine told me long ago, "Never argue with a fool, he'll only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
Well done. A fact-based comparison beats an emotional rant.
Thanks!
i try to get them to talk it out, see the other persons side, sometimes it works but it always de-escalates them
Sounds like both sides get to voice their perspectives.
Preach brother preach! Great video… and you definitely made your point!
I appreciate that, Lee. Thanks!
One weakness of the shopsmith which is legitimate is as a lathe. Spindle size is smaller, which creates issues with bigger turnings. But again, a disc sander and table saw in a small space would mean that you could segment larger turnings and make them easily on the shopsmith.
I see what you mean, I will add spindle size to the scoring sheet for the follow up video. Shopsmith has a 5/8 inch shaft where as the laguna you mention has a 1 inch spindle. So some point lost to Shopsmith there.
The Shopsmith in lathe mode was designed as a spindle lathe for making table legs and other furniture parts, and it shines for this.
Making large bowls and platters and other facegrain projects was an after thought, and is why the spindle and bearing sizes are not as robust as a stand-alone lathe.
Stayed on topic
To the point
Comments well supported - with facts.
Video production well done.
Dude - most excellent!!
Yahoo!! 👌😎👊
As always, John, thanks for the support!
I've never seen a miter gauge on a drill press before that pretty interesting and unique.
You're right Chris it is unique. It drill press mode it is not used like a sliding miter gauge would traditionally be used. The Shopsmith gauge has a locking screw to lock the gauge in place, so in drill press mode it can be used as a stop. Very useful in combination with the fence to make repeatable holes.
You compared the other products to the SS Mark 7 price only. The speed ranges in your video appear to be for the SS Mark 520 and below. The induction motor on a Mark 7 has a speed range from 250-10000RPM. Maybe re-think some of your comparisons...
Thanks for watching "•" Yes, I intentionally worked with the specifications of a Shopsmith Mark V 510 circa early 1990's. The comparisons in the video were targeted to disprove the claim that BETTER tools can be purchased brand new that are CHEAPER than a USED Shopsmith.
Not only did I give an example of how this claim is not true, I invited anyone to provide a list of tools in support of the claim. No one has done so yet, so I think I nailed it.
I paid less for my shopsmith than those single tools cost.
Great deal James, yes there are some really nice deals out there in the used market.
Way to go, Tom! And I really dig the thumbnail!
Thanks Scott. I did "keep some powder dry" as they say for a possible 2nd video, but let me know if you think I was way off base with anything.
Awesome Tom. A lot of work just to show hatters the truth.
Paradoxically, this was a lot less work than my average project build video.
I had one. It's a neat idea, but the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" applies.
“A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.”
I don't hate shopsmith machines. I've never been close to one to form an opinion, but I do have a question. Why do you own at least two of them (seen in your video)?
Sure, I bought my first used Shopsmith around 2015. It was a Model 510 and about $400 including some bit I added off ebay. I used it exclusively until last year when I upgraded to a new Mark 7 model and converted the old 510 to a power stand.
@woodshop nerdery ok, thanks. I've considered a shopsmith, but I didn't like the idea of continually reconfiguring it for each step in the process when building something.
Nice job on countering all the ignorance with well thought out research. Actual data as opposed to emotional responses based on assumptions rather than fact is refreshing. Seems like the malecki guy is at that stage in his UA-cam career where he is becoming more of an actor/content creator with little regard for integrity or actually providing useful info.
As a hobbyist woodworker with limited space I think the shopsmith is hard to beat. Combine it with some type of track saw, and a modern bench top planer and you’re able to make damn near everything, if your patient, capable of following directions, and willing to learn new skills. It’s definitely geared towards engineer types that like to tinker and can be a pain in the ass to setup, but damn…my first shopsmith I bought used in 2010 for $150 that was from the 50’s and probably still works…whoever has it now.
I kinda like that some people don’t get them…keeps good deals on Craigslist and what not flowing 😂
Thanks Tim, yes we have enjoyed artificially low prices in the used market for a long time. Has given a lot of people a chance to get into woodworking.
Impressive Tom, once again fact based with a common sense approach. While I know it is not lost on you, the other elephant in the room is space, most hobbyists woodworkers ( I define hobbyists as not making their living as a woodworker) have very limited space for their shop. I believe most have the room of a single stall in a garage or less. Fitting those stand alone tools in that space would be a challenge, let alone have room to actually use them.
Thanks James, too true! I did leave off the space issue for a future video. But also I have a take on the speed of operation issue that needs to be addressed.
Shopsmiths are dream tools. Awesome tools. ❤
You forgot to mention that Shopsmith has, by far, the BEST depth control for drilling of any drill press. Just because someone spent big $$$ on tools doesn't automatically grant them any skills, either.
I agree the Shopsmith has a very convenient and accuse depth stop. But have you seen the electronic depth stop on the Nova Viking? It’s maybe a bit better than Shopsmith.
you said drill chuck os 1/2" the chuckless model will go to 5/8"
Wow! I didn't know that. Thanks Allen.
Can you imagine picking John Malecki as a person you watch and listen to. I guess people like Logan Paul too.
I have a Shop Smith and I didn't know it was so controversial. I think it's a pretty good tool.
Yeah, it's a phenomena of people who never used a Shopsmith, telling other people who never used a Shopsmith, who go on to tell other people who never used a Shopsmith how terrible it is.
Awesome Tom thanks for the effort I will be surprised if you get any response at all
Only 1 guy suggested I review different bench top lathe. Other than that just a bunch of bravado and unsupported claims.
Have run Mark7 on 220v/ 2hp for years in garage.. am not motor savvy; but noticed a difference in torque, heat and operating smoothness … your comparison charts and cost of competitor tools maybe markedly different?
Eaton, I hear you. But I didn't have the heart to compare the table top tools to my Mark 7, that would have been too cruel.
Avid wood turner here. Rather than G0844 I would recommend Laguna 12/16. Much better than the Grizz mentioned IMHO.
Christopher, I will look into that Laguna and add it to the follow up video.
Did the inventor of Shopsmith get his inspiration from the Swiss Army Knife?
Maybe, I think it’s more likely he was trying to improve upon the Delta multipurpose power tools.
Where is Shop smith’s made? & for that matter Grizzly?
I wouldn’t call a cast iron an advantage over aluminum. If done right aluminum is far superior, lighter weight and doesn’t rust.
Many German power tools are switching to aluminum table tops.
Nice video. thank you.
My Phillips Head screw driver is pretty good. Oh wait, my Shopsmith Mark V 510 doesn’t claim to do that. So all good! (But my Phillips Head screw driver is the most dangerous tool I own..I think?) 😊
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Well done, Tom!
Thanks, John!
i actually do teach at a middle school.
Awesome!
I might prefer the G0869, but the shopsmith is still worth having even in a shop with a full size3d table saw.
Where are grizzly tools made? China? Compare a Shopsmith PowerPro headstock to those 'other' tools. If you want a good tool on the cheap get an old Shopsmith and upgrade the headstock!
Great point Daniel, the Shopsmith's in the used market are a fantastic deal.
Love it. Thanks Tom
Glad you enjoyed it
What if your motor dies?
Repair or replace depending on the circumstances. Same as would be done if a stand alone table saw motors dies.
@@woodshopnerdery My point is you lose all your power tools in one go. If your stand alone table saw dies you can get on with some other work while you wait for repair.
@@Gordon-rq4jo I’m following you, and I do realize that if the Shopsmith motor dies I can’t use any of the functions until the motor is repaired. But like most woodworkers I own multiple way to drill holes, cut boards, etc. I would temporarily use the alternatives like any one else.
Obviously you bought a cheap underpowered tool with no longstanding support. I'd be willing to guess that any electric motor rewind shop in America could actually rewind a Shopsmith motor cheaper than your stand alone tools could be replaced. I might be wrong, if I am someone point it out.
1 hp moter is fine for a disc sander, drill press. Not much else. I'm sorry that you and your buddies are upset about that. Truth is shopsmith, is fine for a diy, homeowner and hobbyists who want a machine that can do the bulk of the work.. Apparently you guys want John M to respond so you guys can get more hits on UA-cam. Doesn't seem to be working?
Why would I be upset? I got the best tool at the best price. If you know of better tools at a better price please list them here.
@@woodshopnerderyI guess you're time isn't that important. I'm a finish carpenter/ woodworker. I don't have time to reset a different tool every time I need it. Like I said it is great for hobbyists with limited space.
@@georgelavelle2097 My time is very important, that's why I'm glad I own a Shopsmith. Very efficient. I bet I can change from rip blade, to cross cut blade, to dado stack in half the time it takes a stationary table saw. Another example, I can change grits on my 12 inch disc sander in seconds by having multiple discs. On a stand alone sander it task 20-30 minutes to change grit when considering peeling of the old, cleaning the adhesive, and applying the new disc.
People, who never used a Shopsmith, perpetuate the myth that it's slower because of tool change over. They are not aware of all the ways the modularity make it more flexible and faster.
Dude 1 hp isn't fine! I owned an old Delta table saw that the motor quit on. Guess what no one made parts for it! Why don't manufacturers have replacement parts? Rigid makes a good planer but try buying parts for a 5 year old model. Just try it. No one can rewind those motors either. Fifty years of building the same basic tools means that a manufacturer has parts and other people do to. Small cheap tools like the Grizzly are fine for 1 hp but move up to more power! So Johnny doesn't respond? I'm not going out of my way to watch his videos because he sounds like an irresponsible twit! I guess if you like running under powered cheap single use tools and your spokesman is a guy who uses fear: go ahead and knock yourself out.
2 issues, 1 being, your "education" category is absolute BS 😂 just because the shop smith has more instructions doesn't make it a better tool, it just means it's over complicated.
2, and more importantly, you compared NEW benchtoo prices to a USED shop smith... Just looked on their website and a new shop smith with all that functionality is $4,200, so for an extra $1,110 saved going that route, it might make sense for a lot of people to not have to deal with the hassle of breaking down their machine every time they switch processes. Not saying those benchtops will outperform, but they're pretty comparable, and significantly less expensive
I view quality woodworking instruction as a valuable feature of the tool. It doesn't make a better tool It makes me a better woodworker. The Shopsmith is quite simple to use. I know what a new Shopsmith cost because I bought one in 2022. The video is to address shopsmith haters who claim cheap bench top tools are better than a used shopsmith. They are not better. They objectively have less power, capacity, and features. I also did a followup view proving a NEW shopsmith is LESS EXPENSIVE than comparable NEW tools.
Yes it makes sense for a lot of people to buy individual tools. But it also makes sense for a lot of people to buy a Shopsmith.
I'm looking closely at purchasing a Shopsmith and I appreciate your work here BUT on the mid-range tool comparison you did... I have to call you out on your conclusion where you essentially disregard pricing by using the Used vs. New cost argument. That doesn't fly in my book as you could just as easily go the used route with the Grizzly tools and drop the cost there significantly as well You were fair up until that point, can't do that.
Going used has definite disadvantages as well. New gets you a warranty, used does not and that ties directly into the other disadvantage of going used, that being there is no way of knowing what you'll get with a used product of any kind. A used Grizzly tool or Shopsmith is a gamble because you don't know what you are getting out how well it was treated by yes previous owner. I've purchased used tools and had them work fine for years and then I've bought used tools and had them crap the bed shortly after purchase. I've seen people posting videos of buying a used Shopsmith and ending up having to tear down the drive unit completely to rebuild due to did not being properly cared for or simply just the fact that it was used for years and was simply fit for a major overhaul. I've also seen them have to buy new head units. Buying used has its advantages in price but not knowing what you have until you have it is absolutely a huge disadvantage. If the Grizzly tools have issues it's a phone call and replacement away from getting those issues solved.
If you're going to do this fairly then you need to be completely fair from beginning to end. The Shopsmith is simply not going to win in the low end price argument. The comparison should have been the mid range Grizzly tools new vs new Shopsmith. Let BOTH brands take their wins and their lumps fairly. You can compare them at the high end for that win. ✌🏽☮️
I agree new tools have those advantages you document. That is why in 2022 I purchased new Mark 7 (massive upgrade to the Mark V) new from Shopsmith. And I showed both the new and used Shopsmith prices in the video. Did you watch to the end?
@@woodshopnerdery Yes, I did watch till the end. I agree with you in the ending comparison of high-end new Grizzly tools to a new Shopsmith. What I disagreed with was used Shopsmith to new Grizzly tools. You stated in a reply to my other comment that it was not you making the new vs used comparison it was the "haters" claiming that mid-range tools were better than even a used Shopsmith. To that argument I'd have to say that in some cases they would be correct and in others cases incorrect. I'm sure you would agree it would depend on what condition the used Shopsmith was in and what price they paid. The example I gave where there are videos of people who obtained a used Shopsmith and then ended up having to do a complete rebuild or replace the power head completely due to the previous owners lack of maintenance or abuse. This has nothing to do with the quality of the Shopsmith since we all know of numerous examples of them running for over half a century. It has to do with the quality of the prior owner but it would be hard to argue in that situation the Grizzly wouldn't have been a better/cheaper investment.
The only way a Shopsmith comes out on top in that scenario is someone being a lover of the brand and simply wanting to have one. In that scenario it wouldn't matter, even the annoyance of rebuilding a power head would likely end up being an act of enjoyment to end up with the shop toy that you wanted.
Please understand I'm certainly not a hater. I think I jumped on Malicki's case just as vehemently Shopsmith owners because of how wrong he was both in his opinion and in his intent. I'm extremely tempted to buy one due to my severe lack of workshop space but I have several reservations. The largest being Shopsmith's love of proprietary attachments even when it's completely unnecessary. That love makes me question how much Shopsmith specific stuff I would need to purchase to outfit myself. That mindset is employed to lock people into an ecosystem. If the company is confident in their product they should not feel the need to lock anyone in, or out for that matter. I was an Apple user who broke away from that mindset so it's very difficult for me to consider jumping back in. I would say that is my largest concern at this point preventing me from becoming a customer of a new Mark 7. I won't say more because I don't know enough yet about what is true and what is FUD. For example, I was told Shopsmith's were locked into 1¼" proprietary arbor saw blades. I later found out about the 5/8." I'm proceeding at a snail's pace because these are very real concerns for me. It's been difficult to discern the accurate from the BS to be honest.
Thanks for replying. ✌🏽
@@genesishep I get you. And I agree some will prefer new tools for the reasons you mention. I have bought new and used. I have had to repair used tools and I have had to return new tools under warranty. I also have bought used tools that ran for years with no problem.
I feel the comparison I gave between the mid-range Grizzly and the user Shopsmith is valid because it is a very real choice people have to make. That is, Do I save the $1,600 I get for buying used, over new? Knowing that I may spend some of that $1,600 saving making repairs or catching up on maintenance. It is a very real conundrum.
BTW, the only proprietary thing I have notices with the Shopsmith is the Miter Gauge is 23/32nd wide instead of 3/4th. Table saw blades, bandsaw blades, scroll saw blades, drill bits, lathe tools, dust collection, etc. I have all non-Shopsmith variants of these.
@@woodshopnerdery We'll have to agree to disagree on your mid-range argument. I can respect that you feel it to be a fair comparison. I feel my reasoning is sound enough to rebut that stance. Afterall, the Shopsmith was the perfect solution for everything then it, and others like it would be the default solution in use. That is fine though, sensible people can disagree.
Regarding my concerns over proprietary hardware, I appreciate that insight. Honestly, that takes the largest concern off my list. My biggest concern was the thought of accumulating blades, bits and such and the idea I might have to repurchase those items if I chose down the line to change the tools I work with.
In some cases, I work on site so the ability to load a compact "mini shop" into my utility trailer to take with me is ideal. With the Shopsmith, being a lathe-based system and much of what I do being reproduction work on Victorian era homes it feels like a perfect fit. Turning replacement porch and stairway spindles is a regular task for me but without fail other work lands at my feet so simply having a lathe on site would not be sufficient.
Thanks again for you reply.
@@genesishep have you mentioned that use case for Shopsmith to Scott Markwood? I believe he used to restore homes of the Victorian era with a Mark V. He may have some in sights.
Xclnt, as usual!
Thanks, John!
It may complicate your chart but you could also add:
- dust collection ports (no need for multiple runs and gates)
- total floor space footprint
- additional electrical circuits per tool
- noise level
No doubt the Shop Smith system is a very good tool. BTW Shop Smith actually manufactures their product. I don’t believe Grizzly manufactures their tools(I may be wrong).
I think you gave the job-site table saw too much credit, they are scary. That modality cannot compete with any floor standing table saw.
Great ideas, I will think about how those might be incorporated. Grizzley is owned by Woodstock International, they probably farm out a portion of manufacturing, if not all, across their brands. To be fair, Shopsmith subs out a lot of their components as well.
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Tom, Your scoring system is flawed! You should have had one more line!
Manufactured. Grizzly Taiwan. Shopsmith. USA. Grizzly 0. Shopsmith. 3
Another thing is, Will the Grizzly be worth passing along in 30 years to your child? Shopsmith is proven yes, don’t know life of Grizzly
Thanks Kevin, I appreciate that the old Shopsmiths were USA made, and that the new ones are still assembled in Dayton, OH. But, to be fair, some of the parts are out sources to local casting and machine shops, and some parts are sourced from the global supply chain. I don't fault Shopsmith for this, after all they are competing in 2023 with 2023 rules.
ha ha, fooled all of you, I have many stand alone full size power tools .....and a Shopsmith I use for a lathe, disk sander, and drill press. The only thing I've ever had against the Shopsmith is the table saw table is too high and to small, just personal preference
OK guys the only tools people should have should be Festool and WoodPecker only. No wait, you said cheaper. Never mind.
Agreed, better? Of course you can find better tools, but they will be a lot more expensive.
Thanks, Tom.
I appreciate the nerdery, or rather the deep dives into comparisons.
That “other video” created quite the kirfuffle, didn’t it?
Thanks Tim, it did but this is not new. Been going on for years.