Major ICF Problem?
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- Опубліковано 19 гру 2020
- Over the years we have used insulated concrete forms (ICF’s) on a good half dozen projects. More recently though we have stopped using them due to one main reason... and we have been getting a lot of comments asking why we don’t use them! I will explain in this video…
I am wondering if this is the same all over the country or world? Leave comments below because... I am curious!!
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Living in a Northern state and in a tornado/extreme weather area I wouldn't do anything else.
We have zero issues with termites. I've helped with several ICF homes, basements and foundations. It's so straightforward about anyone can do it with basic training.
I'm building ICF with in floor heat. Quiet, comfortable and warm in those 60+ mph blizzards at -30°F. You're literally living in a concrete safe room for tornadoes. Lots of peace of mind.
Yes and there is such a thing as a termite shield.
Is ICF more affordable that bricks and sticks?
Well, I built lots of ICF in Carolina, and NONE of those houses have termite problems with the below ground ICF. I was building at the time the lumber and brick industry in NC got nervous about losing $$ to ICF builds! They hired a young engineer in SC to lab test ICF for termite infestation. She, in a conversation in Asheville explained how she determined termites would eat styrofoam. She took a 2ft glass lab beaker, placed a termite nest in the bottom of the beaker, and plugged the other end with a styrofoam plug. She then stated that the termites ate through the plug! Thus, her conclusion was “termites eat styrofoam!” I asked her, “What if I put you in a sealed room, and plugged the exit with styrofoam? Would you suffocate, or eat your way out?” At the hearing that day, I asked the building code board members (2 of which were from brick companies, 2, from lumber companies) if they would ban all below ground materials because of termites? They stated that wood could be treated, block didn’t need to be, and neither needed to be insulated. I then asked, “Well, as a commercial builder, you demand styrofoam insulation on the corners of below ground builds for insulation purposes. Does this ruling mean you’ll change that regulation?” They responded, “that styrofoam is different.” I later found that termites will travel/tunnel 7-9” and if they don’t find food, they’ll stop! Of course, I went to a reputable independent laboratory that was not state funded to get this information. the good ole boys will protect their pocket books first! Hell, I can remember when they rejected PEX plumbing.
Wow, sounds like you were trying to make them use ACTUAL SCIENCE to prove their assertion.
Pex is failing after 10-15yrs from chlorinated water breaking down the plastic.. icf definitely comes with mold issues! I've witnessed it on almost every icf build (15+) & even brought it up with inspector. Now they don't even wrap with a membrane before back filling, so i for see many issues with icf/spray foam in the future. And no rebuilding on an icf foundation after any kind of fire damage as the plastic webs melt leaving the cement like swiss cheese.. Surprisingly My wood foundation with garbage bag thick plastic as a moisture barrier was back filled with clay for the last 40yrs, and has held up better than any 20+yr cracked up block or formed foundations we've renovated.. but to be fair we don't have termite issues in this climate. there's already companies around removing spray foam from homes. Don't get me started on structural glue wood and fiber cement board products or mdf, its all poison and designed obsolescence imo.
@@human4805 Well foam is a plastic, and mold cannot grow on plastics as a general rule.I’ve only been building since 1960, so, being new at the game, I must be wrong wrong about styrofoam BLOCKS!! BUT, NOT THE BLOWN STYROFOAM YOU SPEAK OF!! Any material installed or applied by man has the possibility of failure, AND, I’ve seen Mold grow on trees too! BTW: Trees are where lumber comes from. Concrete block is man-made stone. I’ve seen natural rocks with MOLD on them. I would be remiss if I did not remind everyone reading these messages to be aware that knowing you material manufacturer, their process, and what is included with their final product’s capabilities, is the key to prevent usage of poor quality materials. Pex has had issues, BUT, the manufacturer has disclosed that the municipalities which use TOO MUCH CHLORINE IN THEIR WATER SYSTEMS can cause many health issues and other failures. I have never used spray foam for anything but sealing a leaky barn window on my stable. It sufficed, and the horses were happy. I find it odd that one who uses plastic bags below ground for whatever reason is even licensed or can pass even the minimal inspections. I warrant my homes for 30 years after construction, and have NEVER had a claim. 36 of those are ICF BLOCK from the foundation to the roof line. Hell,I’ve even built a DRURY IN completely out of ICF. It was 16 stories high. They’ve never had problems. Human 4805, must build good houses. What he uses for them is probably all the “good ole-boy materials, and that’s fine. Wood rots, is susceptible to termites, and , fire (just like styrofoam is) MOLD grows on wood, concrete block, even vinyl, but not the ICF block I use!! The ICF block I used has inclusive fire-retardant, termite prevention, and solid state structural wall strength included with the product. If it catches fire, the hollow interior of the ICF block, having been poured solid with concrete, interlaced with rebar leave the home owner with a 4-8” thick Concrete Wall! That in itself is quite substantial. What you lose with the Styrofoam wall system on both side of the wall is an exterior panel less it’s insulation quality of 30 to 45. Get that kind of insulation out of a 4-6” wood wall or even a concrete block wall. If you want to waterproof below ground contact a pipeline builder and he can give you the name of the material he uses to protect his weld joints. This material comes in rolls, is self-adhesive and made to last 100-200 years.
@@stephentaylor9366 well i was 4 when it was built so i didn't build it with garbage bags, i had it all dug up to replace the clay filled drain tiles and the thin plastic membrane then backfield with gravel & filter sand.. So you really think plastic doesn't mold and vinyl isn't a plastic 🤔 fyi foam is pours & has thousands maybe millions of times more surface area per square inch. Yes other building materials can mold & mildew if not stored right, but can also be cleaned off or neutralized unlike foam & drywall that gets covered up and goes unnoticed until the hole family start getting sick in a couple years (usually the kids 1st) .. Unless you're natural rock it sitting on your basement floor, mold on rocks is moss not mold. Its ok noone from your generation or traids care about things like micro plastic, voc's, mold /mildew, glue lam dust ect. That why i left construction it to work with actual wood and save any lung & liver damage for recreational purposes.
@@human4805 As I stated, you no doubt build a good structure. And, so do I. We use different materials to achieve the end-goal. I personally never liked anything below surface that could later cause problems of any kind. So, I was always hesitant of building with concrete block, wood, plastic or any other material below grade. When I ran across ICF (which if you explore what it is) I thoroughly investigated the plus & minus of the material. (I even visited the manufacturing plants of some of the better block manufacturers). With a 30 year warranty on my homes or commercial buildings, I don’t want to encounter potential problems later. SO, I agree that there are some plastics that are unsuitable for many applications when building. BUT, since there are literally thousands of plastic materials, I refuse to blame all of them for not being of the quality needed to build with. For instance: In many states across this country, it is mandatory by “Code” to protect the footers with a “STYROFOAM barrier”at the corners. Styrofoam used in my materials used will not collect mold nor will it grow on it. Heck, just look at all the styrofoam trash along the highways: There may be mold growing in the leftover material inside the styrofoam cup, but never on the outside, because it cannot/will not attach itself to the outside, or base material surface. Please find yourself a reputable ICF builder in your area and ask him about his experience with the product. We can argue forever and you won’t change. Me? hell yes! If you want me to build with wood, concrete block, steel, aluminum, etc., I’ll do it! BUT, not without discussing the materials being used with the architect, customer, local building inspection departments, etc. I build to last. I don’t need $$ bad enough to rip somebody off with bad builds. AND I believe you’re the same way. By the way, I don’t like PEX either. Hard to beat copper, or top quality PVC pipe.
Sounds like more of a problem with the pest control company than the building system.
This.
Maybe. Ya takes your chances
Yes and No. There is a valid concern but there are also Code approved mitigation tactics as well as many pest control companies that would have gone ahead and treated the building. This article goes into the details. www.icfmag.com/2017/09/termites-and-icfs/
I think it is more a local code issue. Termites are endemic in many areas where ICF are used with no issue.
And yet if the people with whom he works or would need to work to pass a final.inspectuon won't do the work, then your opinion doesnt matter, does it. It's the reality of the situation, and it's a problem directly tied, at least in his immediate area, to icf. And if itll make a builder fail the final, it's a big flippin problem. The rest is semantics, and word games. You also aren't obligated to follow the advice of a dude who makes UA-cam videos. Make your own call on a foundation, and flip the coin. Orrr call termite treatment companies ahead of time and see if they'll do it.
I have an ICF house and have no problem getting bug treatment. I have termite traps around the house and no problems. I'm in Missouri. I'd never consider anything but ICF at this point. I love everything about it. This home was built in 2007, I bought it in 2021 and I'm super-impressed by the solid build, quiet, and overall strength of the material. I LOVE it.
I love my ICF house, it is incredibly energy efficient, amazingly quiet, and it feels like living in a fortress. Every stick frames house I've ever lived in would creak when it got windy but in my ICF house you can't even tell if it is windy even at 50 mph.
I am looking to construct an ICF house. Is it a DIY(as they usually portray as easy clicking lego). If not is it easier to find a builder. Any lesson learnt
@@cosmo1kramer it's not that easy 😂. One mistake will cost thousand, some are even not possible to fix without contracting a engineer. Please really really research the process, also if you decide to contract it out after you've started, good luck finding a reputable team that will touch it.
@@cosmo1kramer having built several in northern Vermont, here are some considerations:
I prefer to screw cement board over the exterior waterproofing and 5/8 advantec to the entire interior( which stays on the foam as part of the house)
, I have even completed all drain tiling. braced, then bankrolled before the pour using this technique.
@@georgemckenzie2525 why? Sounds expensive
@@kellymoses8566 experience
The five eighths interior is a godsend , for the builder and the homeowner to live with.
In this climate mice will destroy the interior foam with such precautions
Also I have no blowouts during pour.
It's a great thing that you sometimes take the time to reintroduce who you are and what you guys do in the videos. It's a very warm introduction ... even tho I've been here for awhile .... it's a very nice touch before you get to the nuts and bolts. Happy Holidays to you guys! It's been a huge year for everyone involved with the channel. BRAVO
We're seriously looking at ICF for our house build here in northern Idaho. _Especially_ if we can get a builder that can do a passive house certification. We're looking at it specifically from three angles:
1: Be as self-sufficient as possible, limiting reliance on grid power and propane deliveries in adverse weather. Winter storms and wind storms are frequent enough that it doesn't make sense to leave it out of the house design.
2: We live in timber country. A properly built ICF house can withstand certain levels of exterior wildfire exposure and remain habitable. They're also bullet proof to a degree. Not a bad thing in rural Idaho.
3: Properly built, it should have excellent thermal properties, limiting energy needs for heating and cooling.
I remember back when I first started construction, we would have to put a termite shield (galvanized sheet metal) on before the sill plate, it capped the foundation on both sides and flared out away from the foundation a little bit. With the use of treated lumber this practice kind of went by the wayside. This would solve the problem of termites migrating into the sill plate. Sorry if this is a repeat to someone else's comment, I didn't read all the comments.
While these shields sound like a good idea they ineffective in areas like the southeast where termites are extreme. I've seen them tunnel around the shields before. Also in the southeast or coastal towns, the shields deteriorate quickly and do not offer a long-term solution. Also, they do not prevent flying Formosan termites.
@@are6mr2 Build shield makes a stainless steel cap for ICF.. Google it. There are dozens of options. The reason why you install a cap like this is because it requires the termite to go out side to get inside.
In Australia it's called an ant cap, used on brick piers and basement walls 👍🙂🇦🇺
You can remove a 6 inch strip of foam around the perimeter creating an "inspection strip". You can even treat the area and replace the foam. Termidor is the best option for preventing Termites. It can be purchased for $60 online and if sprayed every 6 months to a year the bottle will last ~5 years depending on the size of the house. Only a handful of states restrict pesticides. Just follow the directions on the label and your golden.
"Only a handful of states restrict pesticides. Just follow the directions on the label and your golden"
more like a good way to breath in carciogens. if you are gonna say that, at least tell people to do it safely. wear gloves, n95 masks, and clothes that you are willing to simply throw away after use, before using any chemical pesticides/chemical herbicides. the labels often do not say to wear gloves, and other PPE before use. the company that made roundup, bayer, got sued for not putting in the label to wear PPE and even were blanetly saying you don't need anything to protect yourself with in their own ads.
@@Zeakthecat Fipronil nor Glyphosate is a carcinogen.
Page 3 of the label states what PPE is required and page 1 tells you that info is on page 3. 🤡
@@ZeakthecatN95 masks are designed for small particles, not chemical exposure.. To work with hazardous chemicals, you need a canister style respirator.
@@user-oy4qp9pq6ihonestly i couldn't remember the type used, so yea you're right.
@@Zeakthecat
Nah an n95 mask is good enough if he uses the ones with cartridges rated for organic vapors, the 60923 is a decent example of one such product.
I am an owner builder in the New York finger lakes region and when making the decision about a basement there were very few outfits pouring concrete and cement blocks aren't done in the winter. I opted for superior walls and was happy I did. The price was less than poured concrete, it comes with insulation built in to meet energy codes, it's ready to build on the next day without the additional step of waterproofing the walls, and it was the most perfect foundation I have ever to build on top of.
Wow, I am impressed that this subject is discussed with respect to ICFs! Realistic youtube is refreshing! When we use any foam below grade, we provide flashing (vinyl and/or SS) though the foam layer, above grade, so that any termites have to go around it (required for frost-protected footing design), AND we onsite-treat all subgrade foam with borates - a combination of boric acid and boraxo. Here in N Calif we don't need treatment cert...yet. It will happen because all wood homes here get termites.
Logix TX ICF blocks are embedded with Imadacloprid to kill termites. Nudura Peel and Stick foundation coating has been rated as a termite barrier. You can also install a termite shield in the foam block around the perimeter before pouring that embeds a "fence" into the concrete that forces termites to the outside of the wall where their tunnels can be discovered. Sorry, I know none of this helps you.
i would think the icf companies would have thought of it .
Logix TX is definitely a great option if you're in a high infestation area. logixicf.com/blog/the-icf-that-defends-your-home-against-termites/
@@reginaldwhite7944 -- I understand your logic and I immediately thought the same, but then I stopped myself and reminded myself how often I know the best solution for something and yet watch otherwise do it wrong or ignorantly say it's not possible, so I would have to respectfully disagree after I debated the same thing internally and realized I was wrong.
Exactly, for a builder this guy is pretty clueless. No offense to him, he just needs more education on the product.
I wouldn't trust that peel and stick for a barrier.
I've been studying these for years with Builders all over the country from Florida to British Columbia to California back to Ontario and I have never seen termites to be a problem with ICF Construction. You are the first one to even mention it.
Did you miss the part "Here, you have to have a termites treatment card to pass inspection (the paper work)..." ?🤔
@@JoseJimenez-mp1iy right. I'm a homeowner with a 16 year old ICF house in the FL Panhandle. 2020 was the year my pest control company stopped issuing my annual termite bond. Now that I want to sell it's a MAJOR problem. How do I get a WDI inspection report for closing?!?!? Don' know
Jamie, So glad to see you doing well after last summer. I have built in the SW in moderate to high termite locations with ICF and understanding your termite guys trepidation from a liability standpoint. Perhaps greater education of his company is what is required. Proper installs with liquid waterproofing membranes followed by barrier peal and stick a (belt and suspenders approach) gives piece of mind. Purchased after the fact is a guess without documentation. Soil treatment with citrus delaminates in pure form repel ants and termites. Also use marigolds and chrysanthemums which are the basis for most insecticides pyrethrum.
I like your idea of using natural planting as an organic insect/termite repellent
I'm glad you brought up the point about the termite treatment. I will have to look into it for south Carolina. Thanks for sharing!
It's about time someone talked about termites and foam, they love to migrate through foam!
A possible way to protect from termites on a already built icf foundation could be to to cut a grove in the outside styrophone right beneath the bottom board , to the core wall and fill the grove with plaster thus creating a termite proof
Concrete border in the between wood and foam.
"Dry Stacked Concrete Blocks", sealed on both sides with fiber reinforcement, was the preferred method designed in the 1930's, for water retention projects. For home building add foam to the exterior based on the insulation value required.
Bingo!! I'm from Australia and have came to the exact same conclusion, you are the first person that I know talking about this termite problem in relation to ICFs... congratulations and subscribed! 👍
Very good point. That's why I'm taking my sweet time in the research and discovery phase, before building.
Happy birthday bro. Thanks for all the great info
Would love to hear how you and Jamie got started. Would be fun to hear some stories of the early days getting started. Love the channel!
They have some older videos on that topic
I believe their dad got them into it.
Eric- glad you brought that up- have been thinking ICF for a project. I'm a plumber, but didn't think of that aspect. Also in the Deep South and keeping your bug "stuff" tight is always a good idea. You can do this sort of tutorial/ informative anytime- even on what appear to be regional things! Merry Christmas!
Thats a real interesting consideration. Thanks for sharing.
Snap ties concrete walls are great. I'm not a block layer so thats what I used.
I thought the whole point behind ICF was efficiency, where you can completely air seal, and pest seal a house. most of the ICF constructions I've visited when looking into it have a shelf on the bottom concrete slab that goes into the icf form locking it in place and to make a completely linked concreate envelope seal. then all cracks on the house get covered in a stick on vapor barrier and/or liquid flashing down to the bottom concrete slab. The majority of these icf houses also do stucco or a floating vinyl siding and the interior has either wood or metal rafters and those interior bits of wood are really easy to get to for inspecting for things like termites especially if the home owner were to opt in for a floating ceiling in their basements. not to mention ICF companies are making roofing forums to reduce the need for a wooden roof and improve insulation values.
something is off with those termite inspection companies, all they should need for inspecting a ICF house is a borescope camera and a drill slightly larger than the camera. a really good 4k borescope camera is cheap nowadays, hell they make them for phones now, and for a pest inspection company they should have the tools and equipment to cheaply patch any holes created during the inspection process. just like a cable company has the tools to patch holes left during a install on a old construction home, that is baked into the pricing of inspection and line runs.
ICF termite shields should be used on every home in an affected area... this forces termites to expose themselves when trying to travel from the foundation level to above grade areas of the home. It is a really easy fix.
There are many solutions to prevent termites even gaining access to the foundation in the first place, which when combined with pressure treated lumber in the window openings pretty much stops termites in their tracks on icf homes.
termites tend to stop advancing thru foam when they fail to find a food source....foam is less appealing to termites than ice cakes are to humans
In MN, ICF foundations make sense. You dont need a termite card and local building code requires foundations needs foam on the exterior anyways.
It has to be on the exterior?
16 Years ago I built an ICF home for myself. Realised the same issue and just brought the ICF up off the ground with a 6 courses of block. As it was my own home the extra cost involved was absorbable but the foundation to block to ICF construction has proved strong, resilient and easy to inspect. Every bit of wood structure and subfloor has also been sprayed with Boracare and maintained. Boracare is awesome!!
What is Boracare? In 2004 my ICF house was built in FL Panhandle. I'm having a problem now getting a WDI to sell the house. In 2020 Pest Control company stopped renewing the termite bond. The ICF portion was built by a company still in operation.
Absolutely class. Loved that series lads. Looking forward to the new build.
Have you guys looked into precast basement walls. In my area it’s very common and successful. Walls are formed with studs and insulation in them. It’s up and buildable within a day usually. Here the cost is less then a poured wall typically in our northern climate and code requirements.
Not tied to any system but seems silly to swear something off when there’s so many fixes. You have to waterproof the foam before it gets embedded. The waterproofing used can be dual purpose termite and waterproofing. Wouldn’t help your situation with a second treatment, but I wouldn’t avoid building with it because of the pest control company.
But how long does the treatment last? If it is not forever, then it may as well be a day because eventually it would have to be retreated or demolished.
Very interesting.At the stage where we need a GC to start/finish a basement, slab, etc and have been looking into the various options of ICF vs block. Did not know this was the case. More research is needed now. Thanks for sharing..
Thank you, (and the crew)!
The answer is at your local building department. Would like to see a follow up video after you ask them.
Yeah the answer is called flashing. They have a few other products out there that are exactly for this. Google them.. One is called Build Shield Termite protection.
@@kameljoe21 this. They have a wide variety of products made to seal and guard against termites in ICF construction. Spray on, roll on, stretch and stick, etc
The products usually do triple duty to guard against air and water/moisture
@@PandorasFolly yeah they do have a lot. Which is why this video kinda sucks due to him not knowing this. This is why conventional builders sucks. They do no research in their fields. They should have installed ICF and put in termite protection. Construction people need to keep up with the times and make sure they know what they are doing instead of spreading rumors so that they can keep doing what they are used to.
@@kameljoe21 there are a lot of good builders and building companys out there that take pride in their craft, But I also know most contractors don't hire them and instead do stick frame because the labor is so cheap and hard to screw up.
I shopped around my area looking for a contractor to basically rebuild from the frame old house into a near passivehouse and I couldn't find anyone willing to take the job after going over the products and tolerances they needed to be installed with. "My monkeys will never be able to get that right." Was my favorite quote.
@@PandorasFolly Yeah I know what you mean. I am going to look for commercial builders as an option. As they are mostly the ones who know how to some what keep up with the times. Also commercial is mostly what I am after as in finish.
I have already quoted out a few of the product lines I think would work good Lite Forms for ICF as they have everything you need all in one while lots of other ICF do not. Though if you know of another product that has everything or more than Lite form let me know. They have ICF footers and deck/roof.
Windows/doors I am going to go along the commercial side as it will be single level and plan on doing doors with vented sidelites. ( instead of windows... it will have full wrap around porch. I would rather do doors with vented sidelights than have to deal with window stills. Should reduce labor when pouring as well. )I am having a problem finding the right manufacturer for vented sidelights. I want to have a 4 half glass door with 2 12 inch vented side lights.
I think I will opt for a bit more cost in plaster max and stucco. As in the end I will never have to worry about the finish. I understand they come in colors so that will be all neutral colors. This will also reduce labor as well.
Electric is mostly simple except for the ceiling boxes I am having truoble finding information on how to install ceiling boxes in ICF roofs. Everything revolves around using drywall and I want to avoid this. Though there are ICF electric boxes for walls yet non for ceilings. Not really exactly sure what I want to do for that. Though your basic ceramic housings is what I will go with and standard bulbs.
Everything else is pretty simple including polished concrete floors, bathrooms and kitchens. I already know how to properly install cabinets on ICF the right way and not the "other way" .
You stated that a lot of other companies are using ICF and in order to get a C of O you need a termite certificate which should tell you something, it must be possible and relying on a single termite company to base your opinion and this video is likely a mistake. If you know others are doing it you should have gone around and ask how.
Thank you! I've been saying this for 20 years. I love spray foam, but only in above-ground applications.
They make products for termite protections. Its called flashing or there are products online that you can buy that are made for this purpose. They are caps that you install over the outside and top of the IFC panel. This stops the termite from move any further upwards.
That's good information. In Arizona we have termites everywhere. I'm getting ready to put on a large addition and I'm looking into alternatives materials for the insulation mostly. The main house was moved onto this property in 1980 and was the valley bank in cave creek az. It has very thick walls and stays cool. We can't afford a basement since they are very pricey out here. Like 80 to 100 grand added to the price. That's ridiculous. Our whole addition budget is around 300,000. Unless we want to pitch a tent on top it ain't happening.
Thank for the information, it really does help those of us still in the planning process.
Buildblock and logix both offer termite treated icf. For below grade, this is really the only way to protect the house without adding a membrane. Termite treatments do not penetrate icf below grade. Some people have suggested stripping outside of the top layers but that only allows you to see the tunnels. The icf below grade will still protect the termites from treatments so you still have a problem. It's treated icf, or you have to strip the exterior foam off of everything below grade which really is only cost effective if you are a diy (you are paying for foam you then have to spend labor to strip and throw away). Foxblock recommends polyguard membrane below grade. It is approved by the sbcci so should pass any inspections in areas that require it (you may have to educate your inspector on it however depending on where you are but the materials are availavle).
OK, so stick a rod threw the foam and treat between the foam and concrete. Problem solved.
I have read about ICF being an issue with termites. People rarely mention it though. I haven't heard about companies refusing to treat because of ICF or foam. Foam is really easy for termites to chew through so it makes a super highway of sorts into the wood areas of your home, depending on the construction and path ways it presents.
I just did a foundation foam retrofit for my slab on grade. We have termites in Central Oregon, but not as prolific as the southern states. I bought the chemical and did my own treatment plus stainless steel screen at the bottom of the sheathing to keep them from continuing up the wall.
Someone else mentioned bait systems which would be a good idea for your home along with the chem treatment You can DIY those as well.
You don't really know anything about termites do you? They won't chew anything that's petroleum based it's toxic to them. Since foam is petroleum based it's not "easy" for them to chew. Moron.
Thanks for bringing this up. I asked this when you did the basement of your new construction.
Sorry to comment twice, rather than getting my thoughts together in the first. A quick Google search found lots of different approaches to the termites and ICF issue. I have to think this a local issue for you Perkins boys. That sucks, as I think ICF is one of the better approaches in a lot of areas. Thanks for posting. It is good to hear what challenges you face that drive your decisions.
4 months! Sounds like you need to get into the concrete form business too
That was gonna be my exact commnet
Or a form rental business
No it sounds like he needs to do his research and look in to how to prevent termites by using a product like buildshield termite protection. There are a large number of thing and ways you can prevent this.
Hi Erik, as a stucco company owner we have plastered/stuccoed over 1000's of square feet of ICF structures, below grade we use a waterproofed cement stucco process and transition to a regular modified stucco system at the intersection from below to above grade. Never a termite issue. Just saying :-)
Correct
That’s not True.
We pretreat the soil before pouring foundations and ICF forms can be wrapped with a shield such as Nudura sells to prevent penetrating the forms. And water proofing ICF is much easier and cheaper than the concrete block. At today's building cost, a 2 x 6 wall house and an ICF house are within 2% of the cost of each other. The R50 insulation is almost impossible to match with stick framing.
Nice an opportunity for opening a company that does it ! Thanks a million opening soon on your area ! 👍👍
I used to be a new home builder and have been repairing & replacing foundations for many years.
Concrete block is the worst choice for a foundation if you want it to last.
Steel reinforced, poured concrete is the best.
ICF is a poured concrete option - lots of rebar in it too.
The solution is simple, don't use any wood.
Exactly! Why use wood at all?
@@pwu8194 The US makes houses out of wood for a few reasons:
1) We have a LOT of land to grow wood on and thus wood is very cheap.
2) Millions of people know how to build stick framed houses and you only need a hammer, nails, saw, and tape measure for tools.
3) Stick framed houses can be built very fast.
@@kellymoses8566 uh... wood is no longer cheap. I can build you an icf building same cost as stick current market rate and I’m in the Pacific Northwest
Termites are little bastards, though. They'll chew through all kinds of crap that ain't wood looking for anything made of cellulose. They'll even mess up a laminate floor. All they need is one crack somewhere in the foundation or a gap around a pipe or utility inlet. Same with ants.
@@nickaschenbecker9882 so, you mean they've got great work ethic? 😁
Wow, you learn something new every day.
Thank you....great info that I was not aware of.
That’s crazy have been building with ICF for over 20 years and several videos on my channel and that has never been a problem for us
Exactly what I was thinking. I’ve watched you put up multiple ICF foundations.
I understand the logic, and I guess it could happen, but it seems like it could easily defeated.
Actually, it makes sense for the OCF guys to put an anti-termite additive into the foam and advertise it as a feature.
I literally Googled this, and it is all over the web as far as how to deal with termites and ICF. This must just be local to the Perkins.
Mr Dirt Perfect,
I subscribe to Your Channel and follow You’re Content‼️
This issue is different here in the DEEP SOUTH‼️ 2 Feet below frost line, ground maintains 50* F year round‼️ The extra cost for insulated forms returns NO value due to constant ground temp, even in higher elevations‼️ The invitation to Termites to burrow through the foam despite pre-treatment, negates any benefit for adding extra cost‼️
I have rebuilt many homes around Atlanta Area where Massive Rapid growth occurred during 70’s & 80’s, taxing county inspection departments and lax zoning/planning laws, created entire subdivisions, 20 years later, to be condemned‼️ I have rebuilt many homes where “Drivit” Stucco or improper installation of artificial stone veneers allowed termites to destroy framing/interior and exterior walls‼️ Termites tunnel up 10’ poured walls getting into wood‼️ House Flippers only need Termite Inspection Letter stating “no visible signs of Termite Activity” at mortgage closing. Most Letters add caveat that home isn’t under current Pest Control Contract‼️
45+ years Building and Mason Contractor in GEORGIA & some limited in Western NC‼️
Refer to Published “Southern Building Code” for additional information‼️
Also, CMUs with course locks, Bond Beams every other course, rebar every 16” and cells poured with 4k psi and 4 slump are stronger than other applications‼️
🎄MERRY CHRISTMAS 🎄
Why the hell would termites even try to eat through the foam? I don't understand the logic behind the termite guys not wanting to treat ICF. Maybe some of the treatments dissolve the EPS and they don't want the liability?
@@namAehT the data is out there if you have time to dig. There needs to be moisture present, so they will not tunnel through dry. They will however tunnel through EPS while looking for the bio mass they eat. Borate treatments on framing are one layer of treatment. Physical barriers that keeps tunnels from accessing framing where it cannot be inspected is the key layer, but that has to be sealed down to the concrete with material termites cannot destroy. Another layer of protection required is the moisture sealing. Again, it is not that they eat EPS, they do not eat gypsum either. They do however tunnel through at times.
I built the foundation of my home with ICF’s. Not a shred of EPS was exposed. Below grade there was a heavy membrane applied to the foam and above grade a cement parge coat. If you can leave the foam exposed to any nature, your building code is lacking somewhere.
As a professional engineer in northern Ontario I was looking for this answer. You are 100% correct and suppliers like Amvic require this as well as the Ontario Building Code.
Im in alberta and was gonna build with icf my contractor said the same thing. Rodents ect... love foam. So i went with a precast basement its concrete outside insulated from the inside and has aluminum studs already installed. Apparently they've been building them in the states for 40 plus years now but is relatively new north of the border but looks promising. And after pouring the footing it only took 3 hours to put up the basement.
I've wondered the same, so that's very helpful information! We have fewer pests in Iowa because of our extended hard freezes, however, pest control is still a critical factor among home builders and sellers. I'd be tempted to spray my own foundation and set a few pest control traps.
Here on Brazil we use to build everything of reenforced concrete and bricks, and precasted slabs. Even litle houses. Is very resistant, and our biggest (and almost only) problem is the umidity. The people here kinda see your houses like a joke, from paper, weak, but as a civil engineer i know your tecniques is excelent, and somethimes better than ours for residencial pruposes. (sorry my english)
Yes, the way houses have to be built depends a LOT of the climate they will exist in. A stick framed house can be VERY strong if built correctly.
Ola! Eu tamben pense iqual! As casa de Amerika são como papel! Eu vivo na Suiza.
Thank you for the insight 💜
I built my house with ICCF (Perfect Block), instead of ICF because the termite issue and I wanted a higher fire rating than foam. ICCF is R41, verses R50 with ICF, but most houses don't have anything over R21 anyway.
I am looking to build a strong durable one side wall about 45ft long and about 6ft tall for our commercial compost pile, what would you recommend we use ICF or ICCF? We originaly thought of using regular cinder block (8X8X16) but it will take forever to lay those tiny block and still have to use cement to glued them together so we thought these ICF block will be much faster and probably stronger too. Appreciate any thoughts/advise? Thank you.
Great point! This is the same reason Dryvit foundations died. The only way around it is to have a concrete footing that terminates above grade so they can see the termite tubes if there are any.
I did not know that. Very interesting thanks for the video. See you next time we build together
Would be cool to see you do a home out of EF blocks or perfect block.
Perfect block looks like a better system than ICF
Maybe look into Diatomaceous Earth to treat the home yourself. Supposed to be effective against bugs, as well as safe for humans and pets. Love your videos!
Great until it rains.
It's not an end all but good for dry spaces like crawlspaces.
Not a long term solution for long term threats like termites.
That being said, if you build in concrete and metal, what threat are termites?
@@rjwinn1088 they climb up where they can do damage.
Great info on foam and termites/ great comments learned a lot
Cut the foam off of the exterior of the foundation wall from the sole plate down to 6" below grade and replace the soil.
That does two things. First, it removes the evidence that the basement is built with ICFs. But far more significant is that it removes the foam between the soil and the wood structure of the house so termites will be forced to build visible mud tunnels to get to the wood structure. Tunnels on the outside of the basement walls are one of the main bits of evidence that inspectors look for to determine if a house has termites, so you are giving them that avenue to gather evidence.
I would like to point out that termites have more options for getting into the wood your house is made of than crawling up the exterior of the basement wall. Basement walls, like all masonry, get cracks in them, and some cracks open up enough for termites to get through. And they may get into your basement three, or four, feet below grade. If you have fiber glass insulation installed on the inside of the basement walls in framed furr-outs, termites will have access to the entire house anyway.
Buy your treatment product and treat your foundation yourself.
Agreed for Erik’s house
But the point of the video still exists. Very informative! I had never heard of this issue. I was wanting to build with ICF to rafters.
You cant pass inspection that way.
You need a proffessional guy with the right papers to do that type of job.
@@Wilmar112 nanny state
@@willysnowman anarchist
What about using termite shields between icf and cill plate. Or just sawzall off 8in. Of foam after its pourd ?
Not in the market to buy another new house, but add one more item to my list of things to check in case I move. The list is always growing!
Very true, this issue is a problem in termite country. Fortunately for me and my ICF home there is not termites this far North. The subject of termites existed twenty years ago before I built my home.
Good to know. I'm planning to build in AZ and we have major termite issues. ICF is becoming popular out here though so I'm sure some of the pest companies have figured it out.
One cement coat and your icf troubles are over. Here in NJ we sell a Cementous waterproof that does 2 things at once.
That is a long way to potentially have an issue. It sounds like more red tape concern than actual issue with ICF.
It is not a issue; they don’t have how to fixed the problems. Sealed footing and ground levels with spray tar
how interesting.... thanks for that peace of info
I have not heard this before / thanks for the info
I know one way to deter termites is to instal a piece of galvanized sheet metal on the foundation between the wall and the mud sill. You normally bend the outside piece so that it sheds water away from the wall as well. Assuming this goes over the ICFs you would see the termite tunnel if they went over and around the metal. Which they aren’t supposed to do. Not sure why this wouldn’t be sufficient for the termite company.
Yes! You are exactly right On doing a metal cap on top of the wall. This would cause the termites to have to go around and make themselves visible… Our termite companies don’t seem to care and won’t do anything with an ICF wall!
@@PerkinsBuilderBrothers plus above that ICF manufacturers can make the block with a chemical that repels termites. they use this block all over the south and works fantastically. There is also a coating you can put on the concrete footing foundation and the ICF walls before waterproofing.
@@PerkinsBuilderBrothers Just curious as to if the pest company won't deal with ICF or below-grade ICF.
Will still file the sheet metal tip away if/when I do an ICF house.
@@PerkinsBuilderBrothers There are lot of options not just a metal cap to deal with ICF exposed foam issues....
certify
One crazy termite company is a poor excuse for not using ICF, when you end up with a stronger wall and one that is insulated...
@@brucea3103 The issue was not with the ICF, but his stick built lumber termite food floor above it.... Since concrete is termite proof....
And FWIW most ICF get fully enclosed in a membrane and/or a protective coating, when its installed... To protect it from various issues not just termites.... And there a cement/styrofoam hybrid blocks, that are naturally termite proof... Like theperfectblock.com/
Perkins Bros,
Have you looked into the Perfect Block ICCF? Fireproof, Insect Proof and uses way less concrete grouting than CMU or ICF. I'm planning on using it for a stem wall. Cheers!
How did your Perfect Block experience turn out? Where was your project?
There was a video on this utude where they sprayed termite protection on the outer and interior walls might be helpful
I’ve never heard that reasoning before. Of course they never taught us that when I went to get trained with the ICFs. It makes sense though. I’m glad termites aren’t such an issue here as they are there. Although when I bought my house it had an old infestation of carpenter ants, they’d all since left but I had to do some pretty involved reconstruction to fix the damage
No issues in central NC. I think your local person is the problem. Cleggs specifically has no issue and I have never heard of any issues from anyone else. They treat pre slab work and after backfill. They couldn't have cared less about the ICF...
Yea they must of been burned before.
@@jonathanmilton9753 Erik offered cash, no contract, no warranty, and still turned down the job. I don’t get it.
I agree. Plenty of homes have icf walls and/or foam under the slab
It would not matter because of the card. You could still sue since they issue a card even if it went that way.
block is outlawed in my area. so many 70s and 80s Era basements are caving in...
Block can be tied together and filled with concrete to to act similar to an 8" concrete wall, but it still isn't usually as strong as even an unreinforced solid cast normal weight concrete wall. Block masonry has its place in construction and CAN work, but if choosing between the two I'd rather have the cast in place. If ICF is the only choice and you worry about this, there isn't any reason you can't remove the exterior foam after casting (even if it is just enough to show a termite trail tunnel).
I think you're referring to cinder blocks, which you can't even really purchase anymore. I would be shocked if your building code didn't allow for CMUs (concrete masonry units).
ICF blocks were not used in the 70's and 80's ! !
@@RJM1011 no kidding... still can't use block to build a basement here. 1100 failed foundations in the city I grew up in from frost jacking.
@@thinkamajig What gets used then ??
LOVE that truwerk hat!! stellar gear
One way to combat this issue of bugs and pests, or so I've heard and seen, is to apply a rubber polymer to the exterior of the blocks. This is supposed to prevent them from digging (eating) their way in. Liquid applications are going to be your best choice, as it can fill cracks and holes, where a rubber sheeting cannot. Let me know if I'm off my rocker, but I'm fairly confident that that would solve those issues.
Many other people in the comments have mentioned various barriers and treatments, or even icf forms that have built in bug treatment, but I don't believe termites want to tunnel in foam in the first place.
Never heard of that but then again I do live in Michigan 👍
Thanks for the info, I hadn’t heard of that before.
They do make products for termites. Flashing the entire top of the foam before pouring will give you the same effect.
That’s crazy, thanks for the info
Good video, I was wondering myself.
When I built my place with ICF, we used the "fastfoot" system which makes the footing waterproof. Then we used the Nudura peel and stick and lapped it over the fastfoot to completely seal it. Then added dimple board over top of that. We do not live in a termite area, but there is no way anything is getting all through that.
Perfect system but dimple board isn't required
@@paulnovak833 Yes probably not, but I've never been known saving a buck lol...
Sounds like someone needs to educate the Inspectors/administrative authorities!
No. They are already educated.
I am yet to see someone show how they finish the above grade section of an ICF. I am sure it incurs damage from UV. I was thinking that maybe durock could be attached and then a veneer finish (eg: faux field stone)... but wow labor. Having exterior continuous insulation is a huge thermal benefit - especially on a foundation. It acts as a thermal break, almost eliminates capillary action up the concrete into the sill, and prevents vapor drive into the basement. It's the "perfect wall". Thanks for your videos. You guys are great.
Most exposed ICF is stuccoed
Thank you!Build on!
Informative, did not know that, I wonder if that’s the case in my area? But also with block or any footing, if there’s a void inside and you have termites, they’ll find a way.
Thanks Chuck
You should consider using Term Barrier by Polyguard.
On an already existing, buried foundation, that's not gonna go over too well.
Imagine having to excavate the entire foundation, rasp the outer layer of foam (and dirt) off, then hope the wall's clean enough to get a good bond on the Polyguard.
@@PhotonHerald Of course not on a buried foundation. They are building a new house.
Interesting. I never would have thought about this
We built our house in Northwest Arkansas and found the same thing (a bit too late to change our plans). Our neighbor happens to be a pest treatment guy and we confirmed with him and another friend of the family who is also a pest guy. They both said, bora-care treat the house after it's framed is the only option for an ICF house that you plan to live in long term. Neighbor wouldn't touch it, friend of the family would treat it however we wanted, but would come with an agreement that we'd never hold them accountable for termites, but they would always be willing to come to bat for us to help battle us if needed. He was also candid that it wouldn't be cheap because they don't half do anything.
In the end, I opted to buy the stuff and treat 90% of the lumber myself. I sprayed 1:1 mixture of Bora-care from the bottom plates to the top plates, also all the sheathing and any wood subfloor and even the about 8 foot in on the ceiling joists and rafters. This is more expensive than a typical termite treatment especially considering I furnished all the labor and that wasn't even accounted for. I'd guess the bora-care cost me about $3000. This pretty much a permanent treatment and I'm told it's a good product. This is obviously not an option for anyone who has a house that has already been built.
But it is worth noting that both my neighbor and the friend of the family told me typical termite treatments, even on normal slab and framing houses, are a racket. They don't even charge you the amount that the materials would cost them, therefore there is no possible way they are treating it correctly. So just keep that in mind when you are paying for a super cheap termite treatment.
Anyone selling you on termite proof ICF or termite blockers is not to be trusted. You CANNOT count on these things to prevent termites in ICF. Termites do not eat ICFs but they DO travel through it very quickly, right to your bottom plates. Especially if you have any cold joints in your footer/slab.
If you simply add a metal flashing on top of the foundation before setting your sill... problem solved !!! And you'll have a FAR SUPERIOR foundation to some crappy cinder block one.
Interested in your thoughts about using a pre-cast concrete foundation. Something like the one offered by Superior Walls.
I used them when I built my house 21 years ago. I have been very happy with them. They are higher cost, but the half-day installation was great. My only complaint is that mine had only about 3/4” thick furring strips on the concrete studs so you have to use really short screws when hanging drywall and you can’t easily hang things that need longer screws as drilling into the concrete studs is not recommended. I believe the newer design Superior Walls may have addressed this, but I have not looked into them of late.
helpful. never heard that before.
I’m not sure how it would work on the outside but I had to leave my foam down 3-4” down from the sill plate for termite inspections when I incapsulated my crawlspace.
We're DYI'ing our build in upstate South Carolina and have the same issue, so I'm going to have to learn to lay block right quick. Like you pointed out, nobody really talks about the termite issue, and it could have messed us up pretty badly. Thanks for the video.
I wouldn't call this a termite issue, it's just a dumb pest control issue.
What about when you apply foam insulation to the exterior of your block foundation?
Very good point!
@@DavidS-pw5gd Flash the top of the insulation. The steel cap will prevent them from move upwards and forces them outward.
Could you not remove the top foot leaving no path or top the last 18” with masonry, I’ve used them in the uk but termites aren’t a massive issue
Yes, you can put a cap block on top of the wall.
that should take care of the issue for new homes, but for his home it would be easier to buy the bait stations and chemicals yourself from a website like domyown.com. Cheaper and for a skilled contractor like Perkins a walk in the park, why pay a pro if you're not going to be entitled to their warranty?
Built a lot of houses in western NC. Kind of agree with you about the termite issue of ICF. My biggest concern is the limitation of waterproofing options of ICF, Grace has the best system, but very expensive and takes time to install it.
Have you considered wood foundations? Built several in NC, my house was one of them. Supper dry and warm. And it was very easy to finish the basement. No extra furring or soffits for plumbing, and plenty of space for insulation. And using marine grade materials, very insect repellent. It does have a cost, and takes some understanding from the building department. In doing cost reviews, between fully blocked, steel, grouted, and special labor and wood foundation, it is fairly close.
That's an interesting problem to have.... I'll bet there will be a good answer on here for you shortly. Thanks for sharing that.
P
Hmm, I wonder how they would feel about a PerfectBlock foundation. Instead of raw Styrofoam on the outside, it's granular foam coated in concrete. I hate to advertise another youtube channel, but you might strike up a conversation with Matt Risinger or Steve Baczek (Build Network) to see if they've run into similar issues.
That is something I really hadn't considered for my plans, and damn good to know. If you find out more info, I'd definitely like to see a follow-up to this.
I like Nexcem better, better structural and for rating for the block. nexcembuild.com
@@troysgt , hmm, that is interesting.
I peel back the top 6 inches of the exterior ICF form for this very reason.
I just form the top 16" with plywood and Jahn forming ties... strips easy and the ICF is below grade that we don't have to strip. We've also loosely back filled the forms before placement just to not have them have to be braced. (I.e. garage foundation; It also gave us a chance to do it when it was -17ﾟ and not have to worry about anything besides just throwing a concrete blanket over the top everything.)
Just use imidacloprid treated foam, flashing, and membrane and you are good
Learned something today!
In Norway we use something similar, but it has I concrete like plate on the outside