You know, this series really has aged very well. The effects still look quite good even by today's standards. Not just the space battles either, but the Narn prosthetics are still one of the best alien designs in TV history. Another thing that jumps out at me about this scene is how intelligent the Narn commander is. As soon as he's informed they're under attack by unknown ships, his first question is whether it's possible for them to retreat again, because he's too smart to be gung-ho and overconfident when faced with an unknown quantity. But as soon as he knows it's impossible he doesn't make a fuss about it and deals with the problem as it is. They even manage to wound one of the Shadow ships, despite the _absurd_ disparity in firepower.
Karate only for defense. They shouldn't have been there. The commander is great and there is nothing more to add to your words. But the whole attack was a mistake and resulted from arrogance. That little bit of strength the Narn had built up by then to undertake such an offensive operation ... shattered. For nothing.
@@voidw4lker The attack wasn't due to arrogance but desperation. They were losing the war, and they thought they found a mistake by their enemy. They wanted to exploit that mistake, to wound the Centauri. Their hope was that this would not only force them to pull back - giving them room to breath - but also to make the Centauri rethink the war as it became quite expensive for them. You could see this in the talk between Londo and Reefa "It has the right amount of desperation in it to be true."
I always thought that, they gave about as good of an account of themselves as anyone could have done. This battle is one of the most haunting in the series in that you know Narn is now wide open for the attack that shortly follows.
@@xellos5262 Also mentioned earlier in the episode during the meeting about the attack with G'Kar, the commander basically says that if they DON'T make this decisive strike with just about all of their remaining firepower and continue to just fight and fall back as they have been doing, the war would be lost sooner or later anyway. The attack was a risk, but it was said even at their worst projections, they would still have enough surviving ships to defend Narn. Of course, they could not have projected that the Shadows would be waiting for them instead of the Centauri. Although if I had something to gripe about it, You'd think the Narn would have kept better secret of such crucial war plans and not allowed the Centauri to become aware of them under any circumstances. Although in the end the Narn were doomed to lose the war regardless.
I don't think not having a plan B is considered intelligent. Not knowing how your ship functions, and how much time it would take to make a jump is incompetence at best, being mentally deficient at worst. It's like discovering that your car can't run if the gas tank is empty. Edit: not to mention that they put their eggs in one basket. Most of the fleet was dedicated to this attack. So yeah, incompetence and arrogance in one small package. One can only compliment them for the efficiency.
The reason the Narn commander is so scared when told the jump point is falling apart is because the Narn (and possibly others) believe if you die inside a jump point then your soul becomes lost, wandering space. basically a ghost.
The Narn were the ones who initially started the war without provocation hoping the Centauri didn't have the will to fight and would let them recapture and or/conquer territory without much resistance. They were right, but once the pacifist emperor (who let the Narn conquer territory and not authorize any kind of counterattack) died, it let the hardliners take advantage of the situation and allow a full mobilization of the military - and pushing the Centauri right into the hands of the Shadows.
When Centuri used mass drivers to bombard Narn Homeworld. I had flashback to Networks in 1960s broadcast US Army Napalm bombings of Jungles So. Vietnam.
Actually not really Narn main cannons should damage much more of shadow crab, specially three Narns ship targeting one shadow.....but sadly for them targeting and range is weak compare to Shadows. Probably if they aim better they could even destroy one shadow carp....but not more.
@KallenSC my comment still stands. 😅 They were out classed and out gunned and were not expecting "Them". The energy mines would ave done real damage to the Centari ships, for instance. But they were basically wasted on the Shadows. Plus not knowing your enemy's weaknesses, makes fighting them harder. Plus they were much more powerful and maneuverable. They were simply doomed from the start. Even their aged tech of having to recharge their jump drives was their downfall. Then again maybe the Shadows would have closed the gates anyway and thus made no difference. And if there were no survivors, (I can not remember if transmissions or anything was picked up on far away sensors) then nothing to warn the others about for future engagements.
Just loved edited scenes between Narn and Shadows battle while G'Kar quietly praying in his quarters. I am assumed he prayed for Safety of his Uncle, the commander of lead Narn warship.
Thanks for uploading. Not sure how long we can still remember the awesomeness of Babylon 5, and the great acting of the late Andreas Katsulas. Despite 20 years later, still love this battle scene although it is quite slow. But it works with the tempo of the episode combined with G'Kar's desperate praying.
The Shadows wanted too sow political division in the 5 member alliance, so attacking one of them, the Narns(and getting the Narns too take the main losses) was just what the Shadows wanted. The Vorlon Empire, The Minbari Federation, the Earth Alliance, and The Centuri Republic were all spared the first main attack by the Shadows on purpose!
From what I understand of the series the Shadows wanted to start wars so that the strongest races came out on top, remember it all started with Mollari answering Mr Morden's question "What Do You Want?" with the following:- "You really want to know what I want? You really want to know the truth, yes? I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy. I want to see the Centauri stretch forth their hand again, and command the stars. I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power. I want to stop running through my life like a man late for an appointment...afraid to look back, or to look forward. I want us to be what we used to be! I want...I want it all back the way that it was!" This is what got Mollari the Eye back and also the Shadows were able to destroy 2 Narn Bases for the Centauri. Which led to war between Narn/Centauri with other races taking sides.
меня еще тогда, когда смотрел его по телевизору, удивляло, почему они не сделали второго залпа энергетических мин, когда в них пустили комок истребителей.. неужели энергетических мин было всего две..
More than likely, the shadows had an insane advantage at this point with their nearly perfect stealth, insane weapons, and of course the fact that nobody knew who the hell they were. The Centauri on the other hand had already lost a war to the Narn once and had been slowly gettin weaker ever since. While it may not have been a guaranteed victory it would have been noticeable more competitive
The Centauri would have won, but they would have suffered greater casualties. Each Narn G'Quan heavy cruiser usually had to face off against three to four Centauri Vorchan frigates. But the Centauri had better battle lasers, better sensors, and secondary weapons from hell that had incredible firing arcs. The G'Quan puts its eggs into two heavy lasers (heavy LOSERS) to try and kill a ship in one volley. Problem: Centauri ships had very heavy armor. About the ONLY advantage the Narns had were ballistics and this wasn't used enough (energy mines).
The centauri would have utterly destroyed them, but would lose ships and wouldn't been able to attack Narn homeworld that quickly. This shorterlnd the war but the end result would have been the same. That's why the shadows did it, the war was over anyway and centauri were more fit evolutionary in shadows way of thinking, time to move objectives foward. They probably would have engineered a war between centauri and minbar next, while prepping humanity for a final showdown with the winner.
Thus is the power of the ancients (Shadows) against the younger races. Narn ships were copycat ripoffs of the Centauri ships, only bigger and fewer in number. The Narns lacked advanced targeting, relied to much on bad laser weapons, used inferior sensors, and had no defensive capabilities at all. The Vorlons and Shadows had...well...everything in their favor.
"Direct hit, damage to all sectors" Any direct hit from a shadow vessel would have destroyed them. Ships were shown to have survived small glancing blows not to the center and still suffering major damage like the engines completely blowing out or a large section of the ship broken off - but remarkably their ship does not appear to show any major damage and they still miraculously had the ability to jump.
You know, this series really has aged very well. The effects still look quite good even by today's standards. Not just the space battles either, but the Narn prosthetics are still one of the best alien designs in TV history.
Another thing that jumps out at me about this scene is how intelligent the Narn commander is. As soon as he's informed they're under attack by unknown ships, his first question is whether it's possible for them to retreat again, because he's too smart to be gung-ho and overconfident when faced with an unknown quantity. But as soon as he knows it's impossible he doesn't make a fuss about it and deals with the problem as it is. They even manage to wound one of the Shadow ships, despite the _absurd_ disparity in firepower.
Karate only for defense. They shouldn't have been there.
The commander is great and there is nothing more to add to your words. But the whole attack was a mistake and resulted from arrogance. That little bit of strength the Narn had built up by then to undertake such an offensive operation ... shattered. For nothing.
@@voidw4lker The attack wasn't due to arrogance but desperation. They were losing the war, and they thought they found a mistake by their enemy. They wanted to exploit that mistake, to wound the Centauri. Their hope was that this would not only force them to pull back - giving them room to breath - but also to make the Centauri rethink the war as it became quite expensive for them.
You could see this in the talk between Londo and Reefa "It has the right amount of desperation in it to be true."
I always thought that, they gave about as good of an account of themselves as anyone could have done. This battle is one of the most haunting in the series in that you know Narn is now wide open for the attack that shortly follows.
@@xellos5262 Also mentioned earlier in the episode during the meeting about the attack with G'Kar, the commander basically says that if they DON'T make this decisive strike with just about all of their remaining firepower and continue to just fight and fall back as they have been doing, the war would be lost sooner or later anyway. The attack was a risk, but it was said even at their worst projections, they would still have enough surviving ships to defend Narn. Of course, they could not have projected that the Shadows would be waiting for them instead of the Centauri.
Although if I had something to gripe about it, You'd think the Narn would have kept better secret of such crucial war plans and not allowed the Centauri to become aware of them under any circumstances. Although in the end the Narn were doomed to lose the war regardless.
I don't think not having a plan B is considered intelligent. Not knowing how your ship functions, and how much time it would take to make a jump is incompetence at best, being mentally deficient at worst. It's like discovering that your car can't run if the gas tank is empty.
Edit: not to mention that they put their eggs in one basket. Most of the fleet was dedicated to this attack. So yeah, incompetence and arrogance in one small package. One can only compliment them for the efficiency.
When you're level 7 but you're suddenly facing a level 100.
The reason the Narn commander is so scared when told the jump point is falling apart is because the Narn (and possibly others) believe if you die inside a jump point then your soul becomes lost, wandering space. basically a ghost.
You really can't help but feel sorry for the Narn. They thought they were fighting just the Centauri. Just one enemy. When in fact it was two enemies.
I would say three enemies - the third being their own wounded pride.
The Narn were the ones who initially started the war without provocation hoping the Centauri didn't have the will to fight and would let them recapture and or/conquer territory without much resistance. They were right, but once the pacifist emperor (who let the Narn conquer territory and not authorize any kind of counterattack) died, it let the hardliners take advantage of the situation and allow a full mobilization of the military - and pushing the Centauri right into the hands of the Shadows.
When Centuri used mass drivers to bombard Narn Homeworld. I had flashback to Networks in 1960s broadcast US Army Napalm bombings of Jungles So. Vietnam.
The Centauri are irrelevant compared to the Shadows who are millions of years older than even the Vorlons.
Two enemies and one of them is older than their entire race
The fact that Narns, of all the main races, was even able to injure a Shadow is impressive.
Actually not really Narn main cannons should damage much more of shadow crab, specially three Narns ship targeting one shadow.....but sadly for them targeting and range is weak compare to Shadows. Probably if they aim better they could even destroy one shadow carp....but not more.
@KallenSC my comment still stands. 😅 They were out classed and out gunned and were not expecting "Them". The energy mines would ave done real damage to the Centari ships, for instance. But they were basically wasted on the Shadows. Plus not knowing your enemy's weaknesses, makes fighting them harder.
Plus they were much more powerful and maneuverable. They were simply doomed from the start. Even their aged tech of having to recharge their jump drives was their downfall. Then again maybe the Shadows would have closed the gates anyway and thus made no difference.
And if there were no survivors, (I can not remember if transmissions or anything was picked up on far away sensors) then nothing to warn the others about for future engagements.
Just loved edited scenes between Narn and Shadows battle while G'Kar quietly praying in his quarters. I am assumed he prayed for Safety of his Uncle, the commander of lead Narn warship.
Proof that "thoughts and prayers" don't work.
Thanks for uploading. Not sure how long we can still remember the awesomeness of Babylon 5, and the great acting of the late Andreas Katsulas. Despite 20 years later, still love this battle scene although it is quite slow. But it works with the tempo of the episode combined with G'Kar's desperate praying.
The Narn are about as bright as the Klingons......
The music between 2:05 and 2:24 is what get me every time with this scene. Chilling stuff
Christopher Franke at his composing best...
Babylon 5 also made space more colorful instead of the usual black space like in Star Trek
Colourful...and downright scary! Space here is dangerous and full of the stuff of nightmares! The final frontier is full of Lovecraftian terrors.
The Narn's bows and arrows against the Shadow's lightning...
The Shadows wanted too sow political division in the 5 member alliance, so attacking one of them, the Narns(and getting the Narns too take the main losses) was just what the Shadows wanted. The Vorlon Empire, The Minbari Federation, the Earth Alliance, and The Centuri Republic were all spared the first main attack by the Shadows on purpose!
From what I understand of the series the Shadows wanted to start wars so that the strongest races came out on top, remember it all started with Mollari answering Mr Morden's question "What Do You Want?" with the following:-
"You really want to know what I want? You really want to know the truth, yes? I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy. I want to see the Centauri stretch forth their hand again, and command the stars. I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power. I want to stop running through my life like a man late for an appointment...afraid to look back, or to look forward. I want us to be what we used to be! I want...I want it all back the way that it was!"
This is what got Mollari the Eye back and also the Shadows were able to destroy 2 Narn Bases for the Centauri. Which led to war between Narn/Centauri with other races taking sides.
меня еще тогда, когда смотрел его по телевизору, удивляло, почему они не сделали второго залпа энергетических мин, когда в них пустили комок истребителей.. неужели энергетических мин было всего две..
If the Narns faced the Centauri Fleet instead of the Shadows, would the outcome be different?
More than likely, the shadows had an insane advantage at this point with their nearly perfect stealth, insane weapons, and of course the fact that nobody knew who the hell they were. The Centauri on the other hand had already lost a war to the Narn once and had been slowly gettin weaker ever since.
While it may not have been a guaranteed victory it would have been noticeable more competitive
Vastly. It'd be the equivalent of F-4 phantoms duking it out with each other, instead of one side having Phantoms whilst the other has F-22s
The Centauri would have won, but they would have suffered greater casualties. Each Narn G'Quan heavy cruiser usually had to face off against three to four Centauri Vorchan frigates. But the Centauri had better battle lasers, better sensors, and secondary weapons from hell that had incredible firing arcs. The G'Quan puts its eggs into two heavy lasers (heavy LOSERS) to try and kill a ship in one volley. Problem: Centauri ships had very heavy armor. About the ONLY advantage the Narns had were ballistics and this wasn't used enough (energy mines).
The Centauri would have decimated them but taken a loss themselves. They won almost every engagement in the war and had the Narn on the defensive.
The centauri would have utterly destroyed them, but would lose ships and wouldn't been able to attack Narn homeworld that quickly. This shorterlnd the war but the end result would have been the same. That's why the shadows did it, the war was over anyway and centauri were more fit evolutionary in shadows way of thinking, time to move objectives foward. They probably would have engineered a war between centauri and minbar next, while prepping humanity for a final showdown with the winner.
So this was a sizeable Narn fleet with 7-9 Battlecruisers and they got smacked down hard and not a single Narn survived this battle.
Thus is the power of the ancients (Shadows) against the younger races. Narn ships were copycat ripoffs of the Centauri ships, only bigger and fewer in number. The Narns lacked advanced targeting, relied to much on bad laser weapons, used inferior sensors, and had no defensive capabilities at all. The Vorlons and Shadows had...well...everything in their favor.
you & tom Smith, etc gotta form like voltron😄👍🔥
"Direct hit, damage to all sectors" Any direct hit from a shadow vessel would have destroyed them. Ships were shown to have survived small glancing blows not to the center and still suffering major damage like the engines completely blowing out or a large section of the ship broken off - but remarkably their ship does not appear to show any major damage and they still miraculously had the ability to jump.
Might be a hit from the fighters
Me encantan la musica con la q entra la flotan narm, todo imponente diciendo "aqui viene la fuerza"
Narn warships - cannon fodder. Every. Single. Time.
With the Shadows tech advantage they were like cavalry going up against machine guns.
@@kenle2same thing against the Centauri.
If only G’kar had answered Mr Morden’s question with a more ambitious response!
It was the wisest thing he ever said. He may have saved his people from damnstion
The most ambitious response to Mr. Morden's question was the one given by Vir Cotto.
Shadows need thousands and thousands of missiles 🚀 to destroy a planet 🌏 Vorlons need only 1 ship 😀