Science vessel deserves S tier because i think grant forgot that science vessels provide the radar tower buff of +1 range and +9% attack speed FOR ALL YOUR UNITS NEAR IT, so having 1 or 2 in your army is VERY good
This. I’ve included at least one Science Vessel into every composition since I got it. And they have an auto attack now so you don’t have to worry about them flinging themselves super out of position if you A-Move (now just a little out of position)
the scv should get S-tier because it still has the grapple ability while it's an scv so you can get it out of spots that it get's itself stuck in, the amount of times that i have used grapple to get it out of a spot is absurd XD
and you can use it to build up cliffs on missions like outbreak or devil's playground and move them around a lil faster if you want to micro them,i love it
@@martinpachu7125 Very true, and because grapple is single use queue, you can also spread scvs around if your mineral line is under attack by mutas or ultralisks
I felt the factory units were the "weakest" (in design terms) of the bunch, while Barracks and Starports had very few stinkers and some absolute bangers (MISSILE FRIGATE BAYBEEEEEEE)
I think that this is somewhat intentional. At least it is intended by proxy. One of the goals of the mod was to make weaker units better than before meanwhile mostly maintaining stronger ones, so it's only natural that something like Tank would remain almost unchanged and Wraith will get a whole-ass remake from scratch
Except for the dropship. It feels really really bad. And despite firebats having a use, I feel like their lack of range in WoL where most enemies are highly ranged in later missions, or just swarm you, they don't feel like a good option at any point beyond the escort mission where you unlock them. They'll tank damage the same as before, but if you want a tank, marauders are just better since they also have damage (that they can deal without dying). Firebats won't get to do their damage most of the time - can't reach the armored units without dying, and being swarmed by melee units usually means light armor (zerglings). Often they can't be healed, because they go into melee range to attack, and medics (field engineers, w/e) are too far. Nice unit to put in bunkers though. I feel like if they got a bit of extra range and fired while moving they would be better. Maybe 3 range, so not quite melee, not quite ranged, but they'll stay in front of your army and be able to deal some damage before dying. I feel similarly about the hellion variant - it's good, but it gets outclassed quite fast in later missions. While it would have taken more work, I think it would have been better to redesign some of the weaker units rather than try to improve their base form. Ideally every unit should feel great to play in specific combinations and scenarios. The only scenarios firebats and hellions seem to work in, both in the main campaign and the mod, are the mission where they're unlocked. Past that point.. they're there, but you have limited resources and you won't be spending them on those jokers.
@@VasiliyOgniov Only that the effect was that the previous strongest units now suck in comparison, instead of being an equal lineup. Some things were definitely overtuned.
Small correction: The IRL C-130 Hercules cargo plane doesn't require hours to unload. They can palletize their cargo and drop it out the back mid-flight. The Hercules can carry 40 tons IIRC, so it's too small to carry an M1A2 Abrams.
Yeah if you want to transport an Abrams you need at least a C-17. Even the C-5 Galaxy/FRED can airdrop stuff. The REAL strength of the C-130 is its flexibility. You have a C-130 variant for almost every role in the command structure. They’re neat.
I used to enjoy Protoss over all races, and would take Zerg over Terran in almost any situation This mod has somehow made me enjoy playing Terran over Protoss, and I actually decided to skip some of the protoss missions on purpose specifically so I can keep having fun with my grimmies
@@quasarstorm4009 But, my man, Nadrel’s got you covered! Type “hhh” in a Protoss mission and you’ll spawn a Hercules with 5 SCVs! Play Terran in the Protoss side missions!
Hellion/Missile Frigate and Diamondback/Goliath were two of the most glorious army comps I had the pleasure of using in the Moebius Mod. A mobile hit-and-run comp that actually works in campaign was not something I thought I’d bear witness to, especially in ALL IN of all places.
Oh I hadn’t considered Diamondback/Goliath. Not sure if Hellions are necessary though if you’re using Frigates? But I can see the point. Hellions to torch the ground, Frigates to blast the air, etc etc. i actually have never made a Hellion beyond the two you get for free on Outbreak…
@@AzureGhidorah Hellions reduce the armor of units they hit, which means the Missile Frigate’s damage output skyrockets when together with the Hellion(also you’re gonna be floating minerals so). And for any big target that takes forever to kill even with that combo... SPIDER MINE
I hate when I start to run out of minerals/gas, and I end up with way more SCVs than I need to do things, and the HERC feels like a good way to take these extra SCVs and do something with the supply.
Hey Grant, I was thinking about the "always having to pick one unit or the other" in the research tree. Would you be able to reach out to some of the modders and see if they can set up an alternate use for extra research to unlock those units? I was thinking like, have the option to sell the additional research (after 25) or be able to unlock another research for an extra 5 research cost. Alternatively, maybe it's possible to "buy" a research tech from another vendor for a credit price. I have no idea if it's possible but I think it'd be neat so that you could try multiple of the unlockable units in the same run.
@@JWQweqOPDH Oh that's pretty cool, didn't know that! I was hoping for a little bit more integrated system so that Grant didn't feel like he was cheating and could still try out the units in combination if he wanted to. Thanks for letting me know though.
I think it's a cool idea for a future mod. I'll just have to say that extra Protoss research would unlock extra "Protoss" lab tech, and vice versa. I was initially thinking of the player being able to fill in the research tree again from bottom up, but then I don't think that there's enough research to actually do that (I think you get 30-35 of Protoss and Zerg?) and get the interesting stuff later (e.g. Vessels and Ravens). Having both Planetary and Perdition unlocked can be useful in different missions.
@@amplesstratleholm7609 Both planetary and perdition encourages a bit of turtle-gameplay which is marginally more relaxed and less fun. But if they wanted to do it, could just remove the tech lab entirely and give out technologies as bonus mission rewards, eventually unlocking all technologies from both trees. So instead of +3 protoss research you get "Unlocks technology>. Same for zerg. I think there's enough bonus objectives overall to do it, though some might have to unlock more than one tech. I'm thinking objectives like "gather all the defiler samples" would give you one tech for each sample, for example. Pre-selected to ensure some balance exists. (Though with personal bias, I'd make autogas one of the very very first ones)
I think the most important feature of the science vessel is actually the one you never mentioned: it counts as a sensor tower, including the range and fire rate bonus to all units. That makes a single science vessel into a huge force multiplier to any composition that has room for them, and the auto-cast on its guardian shield as soon as it gets targeted personally makes it much less vulnerable to anti-air than a single starship would normally be when floating over a mostly-ground army. And conceptually, I love the idea that it's not a repair bot, it's not a radiation bomber, a science vessel is all about *information*. For the Phantom, I like to think of this less as a replacement for the medivac (a flying medic that also happens to be able to transport), but a replacement for the that adds transport capability. Much like with the hellion/vulture/condor bikes, the modder took two units that were heavily 'meh' and combined them into a single unit that's pretty good. It's not the best, because dropships are underwhelming in this campaign and the enemy always has detection, but within the limits of those two things it's pretty close to the best that it can be. My last thought is about ghosts and spectres. In lore terms, it seems like one spectre should be straight up more powerful than one ghost, but more expensive to represent how hard they are to work with and the need to keep them supplied with the right drugs to keep them stable. But I don't think I've seen a single modder make the two asymmetrical; everybody seems to try to make them exactly equivalent to each other, and usually ends with the spectre being slightly weaker.
My first thought when Grant put the Legionnaire into A tier: "Soo the Legionnaire belongs into the A tier, because it's Hotkey is on A aswell, oh, and it's good"
5:20 There can be concussions on the body since the suit is quite durable, but physical stress can cause one of the marines to, say, get hit in the head and die from the brain being damaged, or the ribs impale the heart, or just in general the soldier dies because the suit is almost skintight so damage to it means damage to the guy inside. The description of Marauders' kinetic foam mentions this as well, that upgrade makes them more durable because they can survive more impact thanks to the foam, but marines and other infantry units have none of that luxury and just have to hope nothing bad happens when they get hit by a zergling.
This is such a cool mod. I am not super great at playing SC2 and I’m so excited that the mod is playable at non-nightmare level difficulty. Super cool!
Definitely gonna second that. I love the AI improvements and how maps have been rearranged for Nightmare, and I love the new units to play with, but I'm too dang slow to play above hard mode.
dang, but I have to download and update it? Need to find patchnotes. I cant do Nightmare either. I completed 4 levels and then I got too frustrated on the 3 options I had. I am not fast enough either. I like playing at hard a lot, or even brutal when it comes to coop, but nightmare? no way.
I think a better addition to the crucio siege tank would’ve been to instead give it an active ability (auto cast or not) where the tank in siege mode could fire upwards and deal light damage in a medium radius, similar to the mengsk coop artillery bombardment. You could also put in the chance to stun alongside that if you wanted to keep the stun mechanic
Is that the Earthsplitter Ordinance of co-op Mengsk? I think that's cool. I'd add a delay so there's a slight skill expression (AIs tend to gather at certain places before attacking anyway), but the stun really has to go to compensate. Most stuff dies to two Tank blasts anyway, and if the existing stun rules are applied wherein it doesn't affect massive or heroic (i.e. Ultras, Hybrid), which are the ones that actually survive a Tank line. It's too niche, only good against Protoss mech because they survive the first volley and are not massive. If you bump the stun chance up to 100% then it's just overpowered.
@@amplesstratleholm7609 That's an interesting thought, maybe siege mode -only- has earthshatter ordinance targetting and it works as normal, but instead of stun chance, (if there's a way to implement it) deal damage in short aoe when killing an enemy mechanical unit. Think shrapnel.
Alternatively, there was one mod... maybe Hyperion Crew? where each tank could individually be upgraded to either actually be good as a tank instead of an artillery piece but then they can never go into siege mode again, or slightly better as an artillery piece but become immobile from that point forward. I thought that was a cool upgrade, not changing the purpose of the unit but having a big effect on how you actually use them.
@@sindrisuncatcher653 It was Hyperion Crew. Tank upgrade is garbage, Siege upgrade is basically a Grand Cannon straight from Red Alert 2. No. The Siege Tank needs _something._ Like, Siege Tanks were _the_ unit that you built in SC1. Then SC2 dropped the ball and made Marines, Vikings and BCs the meta, unfortunately. You can't use Tanks in WoL as you could in SC1 - it'd be great to have SC1 STs in SC1-like environment with SC2 QoL improvements, innit? But we have WoL, a great campaign that unfortunately hates drops, Wraiths and Banshees and dislikes mech as a whole, making bio and air it's favorite kid that gets all the good ice cream. I genuinely think that Tanks are in the same covet as the Dropships - their niche can't be used in the campaign properly. Maybe you could combine those units for maximum effect?)))
Hey Grant, do you plan on coming back sometime to showcase the "evil" modifier or whatever it was which we didn't get to see? having watched the missions I feel some could do with a little more challenge, maybe not evil 100 but evil 50 for sure. Just seeing how these stronger units would fair against it would be interesting, and what cheeses you'll come up with. Thanks for the amazing mod Nadrel and Grant for the series
My favourite things about Moebius Mod aren't even directly part of the unit and tech reworks, it's various misc changes, both small and large, that make it COMFY to play. Regenerative Resource Nodes, both Mineral and Vespene, slower play is neither excessively punished or excessively rewarded. Hero units becoming a permanent fixture in your arsenal including most missions having at least one hero with your starting units. It's not just Jim every time either, you've got all four heroes appearing regularly through the whole campaign. They're no-longer a gimmick appearing for only a single mission. More Objectives -> More Mission Rewards -> broader access to the tech-tree, less requirement to over-think long-term strategy. The fact you get a little bit of bonus cash even playing archive missions is also nice if you want to be more completionist with upgrades, but even that isn't entirely needed with how generous the rewards are. If you feel like it, there's also the added Cheat Codes; AllBuild Alltech and HHH to play some silly gimmicks like early units or having both sides of tech tree lockout choice in the lab / ghost+spectre
Another upside for the widow mine is the relatively low cost (75/25) for quick static defense, especially since every unit in this mod is more expensive.
Wonder if it'd be possible to mod it so that you could buy any laboratory upgrades you don't pick with credits as well as the other option through protoss / zerg research, so as to enable the player to potentially research everything, though in reality it should probably be balanced so that you cannot have enough credits for both that, and the unit upgrades you might want.
After playing command & conquer, i think drop ships, transports would need to be designed in tandem with the map rather than the content of the mission. The base purpose is to be an alternate mode of travel for certain units so when the map is so small and everything important is connected by land, there isnt a use case that necessitates transports or dropships
Yes but the waves and defending units are nowhere near close in size compared to the ones in SC2 brutal. Good luck unloading 16 units one by one when the enemy has a meat grinder waiting for them.
@@The-jy3yq The hard mode on that one is indeed quite hard, but at the same time it's clear it's quite a lot easier there to load and unload all of your army in 10 transports if you so wanted. That being said, I remember like at most 2 instances when I had to do that.
Something I love about this mod is that I had many thoughts about units, like the dropship with cloack that heals the units inside, the diamondback with inmortal shields, battlecruiser with speed boost, hero units, specially Stetman with irradiate... And then this mod came out with all that I wished for, it's insane!
When I saw the Missile Frigate I thought "Valkyrie on crack", it feels like a mix of the OG BW Valkyrie and the anti-ground variant of the Valkyrie in the SC1 Huncraft mod, plus the LotV Carrier's repair drones.
I think it would've been neat to see Cyclones and Warhounds added to the base game. Variety is always nice. Maybe make it so you get cyclones/warhounds and ghosts if you side with nova, and Spectre's and Tosh if you side with him?
Definitely would have liked a warhound variant with its own ability set instead of Thors, and Cyclones with their own set of abilities instead of siege tanks. I mean, siege tanks are good, but the problem with them is that they're so good you'll make them every mission starting from when you unlock them. Removing siege tank would allow other units to shine. One of the Cyclone's abilities could be the liberator attack field, but (if possible) a wide rectangle and air-exclusive. They could act like mobile missile turrets that way. Other ability could have been to increase fire rate the longer you attack any single unit. Remove the base lock-on ability because the enemy doesn't really retreat when attacking you, and when you attack the enemy, you keep advancing anyway. Not sure what Warhound could have been, maybe a targeted drakken laser-kind of thing that disables the Warhound while firing? Alternatively making the warhound a mega-herc (let's face it they look like giant hercs) would have been pretty memey.
Some changes/upgades for the units Grant mentioned: Thor: Make it so each thor have a single nuclear missile that is stronger (but not as much) then the normal ones, it fits with the Lore and make it up for the lack of the area damage cannon while not making it too OP since you only get one per thor. Banshee: I don't know if it's possible, but make it so if you have 5 (or more) banshes gives you an option to make an airstrike (like the one in the cutscene of gates of hell) in a visible area of the map. Dropship: Instead of an infinite cloak, what about giving it a timed super cloak? it would solve the problem of anti drop mechanics while not making it super OP since the drops take some time to complete, so if you drop in an area full of anti air you will probably lose the unit. Viking: ...i got nothing, for real, maybe add a little speed boost or atk speed boost, but aside from that, i got nothing Spectre: If the confusion is too OP, what about a limited mind control? like, the spectre can mind control a unit, but only one unit per spectre and the unit is freed when the specter died, kinda like what nova did, or make it so it can perma control but each spectre have a limited amount of charges of it (like 2, same with the medic's turrets)
Perhaps Vikings should get Missile Pods?)) On a more serious note, I think that their Assault Mode should get a buff. Something like a "worse Goliath on land, sniper in the air". Perhaps you rip apart Co-op Mengsk's Sky Furies and try to build something out of it? I genuinely like the idea of "I shoot on ground, I don't die on ground, I fly and I have a second life". That's kinda fitting with the whole regeneration thing infantrymen and Thors got going on... Perhaps try to give them some sort of stim to make them akin to Marines...that don't have stim in this mod! Stim is an exclusive upgrade! Stimmed Vikings, go!
When I used recall, it was so overpowered. What I did was I had a bunch of the "movey while shootey" units charge in, then I'd recall almost immediately. Then I'd heal up and charge in again. I did this a couple of times, and I hardly lost anyone.
@@Jeff_the_Hobo Hrm. That might complicate the medics only run. Gonna have to carefully calculate how many turrets you need to spend to bring down each air or armored unit as you meet them, so you can ration them and not run out of your finite number of bullets. Gonna have to also be a lot of bait and ambush play. I think Grant could pull it off though, and it would be fun to watch.
@@The-jy3yq I'm tempted to say yes just because it would make some no-build segments into Stetmann only instead of things that aren't counted in the challenge.
For the banshees, I think a good thing would be to give them the AOE of nova's banshees and make it cost energy. As a counterbalance, make them have an ability that regenerates their energy when killing an ennemy unit, making them into really cool extremely offensive stealth bombers.
My thought at that point of the video was banshees with blink. Terran has a few ghost-themed units with cloak (banshee, wraith, ghost, spectre) all of which have cloak, so why not lean into the elusive / spectral angle and make banshees extra hard to pin down? Also has fun interactions with projectile speeds.
@@phaneros The moebius mod only has 2 exploitable cloaked units sincz you have to choose ghost or specter and don't have the wraith and I think it would fit the lore more that the banshees would be a heavy bomber type unit. Blink I would give to the thors to compensate their clunkiness and turn them into absurdly slow but absurdly strong stalkers
I was thinking about the Banshee, and my thought was giving it a bombing run ability - a fast "dash" style ability that deals a bunch of damage to anything on the ground beneath it. With one banshee, no big deal, but with multiple Banshees a scary carpet bombing. Maybe include Hardened Shields - either as a passive or just for the duration of the carpet bomb - to make them scary units able to do fast response things.
@@Shadesight That could be a fun idea but I don't think hardened shield would be good. A bombing run need to be risky otherwise it's just infinity free value and the diamondback already has hardened shield so it would be a bit redundant.
@@tetsudo6934 I dunno, I was thinking bombing run on a timed cooldown - and I was thinking of a temporary hardened shield to allow it to be used offensively without a guaranteed overextension. While the hardened shield does bump with the DBack, you have them for different reasons - the DBack is a bulkier unit, more like an MBT, while a Banshee with a temporary hardened shield - or other supporting defensive buff - doubles down on its role as a strike package. You might be right about the defensive buff providing too much value, but if the bombing run could only be used in an already-controlled space, then it becomes a clincher instead of an opener, and I feel like a banshee bombing run would be a very cool opener.
One niche way of using the phantom dropship I can think of would be against Zerg. slap those bad boys with irradiate, cloak and then fly into the enemy for meme damage.
Just got curios suggestion for siege tank - add toggle for tanks to fire either in sync or out of sync. When you have battery of 3..5 tanks sync firing will take down wave of bulky units all at once. And when they are firing out of sync they will not waste additional shots stomping squishes. Skill-based siege tanks, yeah!
Ngl Grant. I literally mined out All In, made as many field engineers and ghosts as I could with enough to get Stetmann. Killed all my bunkers and extra units. And just sat there as Kerrigan tried to razorswarm them all. 70 snipes later she is gone and I haven't lost a single supply. It is broken beyond belief.
They should have gave the Banshee the ability to throw the cluster grenades reapers had while lowering the time they had invisible.Make them the perfect surgical strike unity that hits hard and runs away.
I think the phantom dropship can be made viable if it had a super fast self-repair ability that triggers when it takes no damage after x amount of time. This would solve 1) the problem of misplays where a dropship can get too damaged while behind enemy lines and it becomes too risky to either escape or continue the mission 2) it also reduces the micro requirement to keep a dropship strat viable. Getting a good infiltration going is already Mico intensive enough, you also have to remember to set a repair guy afterwards. With a self-repair ability, you can be sure that the dropship will always be available for your next infiltration play.
One gripe I have with Medics/Field Engineers: the turrets are maddening to place in big numbers, or in combat. Each turret is a 2x2 structure and won't drop if a unit even thinks about being too close. The deeper you go in the game, the bigger the units and armies, and the more difficult placing a turret becomes. Not to mention it impedes movement. The ability quickly became a liability. I would take a nerf to turret damage in exchange of being able to place them from further away.
The Raven seeker missile had a few changes done to it I think. I am pretty sure the delay after firing was longer, but it did more damage. It felt like it had longer range too, but I'm not sure.
I love the "liberator" eventhough it's super expensive. They control super well and not super punishing if you make a mistake since it has drone healing
I think one way to redesign the Siege Tank into an interesting unit is to remove the splash damage and reduce the damage, but make it fire MUCH faster at the same range, sort of like the TR17 from UPL. Alternatively, make it a napalm tank that deals anti-light damage and leaves burning areas on impact. Another rework for the Thor would be to give it its own Siege Mode-like thing, but with railguns on the back that specifically target air units. Parking 1-2 Thors at your defensive lines then becomes a fantastic way to shore up your anti-air, or they can even park near the command center to deal with enemy air waves going for your mineral line. Vikings and Banshees are sort of quintessential. Maybe replace the Banshee with a suped-up Wraith that deals actually passable ground damage?
Mass ghost in this mod was so busted, they obliterate everything and with an attack range of 9 on top of snipe they outrange all detection in the game with permanent cloak to boot. Missile Frigate I felt invalidated the BC entirely. Its immensely durable, does high DPS, outranges nearly every static AA defense in the game. Its basically a Terran LotV Carrier. Mass em up and they can amove everything in the game.
i feel the siege tank should had been: tank mode: its attack is just the siege mode attack. so you can react faster with them if they get attack while sieging a enemy base. siege tank mode: change to attack only air units but is super slow in attacking, so it wont outright replace missile turrets. they're more a back up air defense.
Just wondering. What would you think of having the Siege Tank's RNG replaced with a pair of cooldowns? (Maybe share the cooldowns instead) maybe a "Stun Shell" - (Fires a special shot with bonus range, which does little damage, Which stuns) and something like "Incediary Shell" - (Does little damage with bonus range, But applies a powerful burning effect) So it's more intresting than "Oh it fires special shells sometimes" and give you control to use it as a support unit for sieges.
A way the siege tank could have worked could be stunning if the blast hits more than 2 units, or slow and reduce units range by 1 on units hit by it (or maybe the medic's granade effect). That way you keep the element of supression, making it so the tank wants to target clumps of enemies to use their full strength instead of just being a default siege tank with RNG.
I believe the ghost's snipe can't target massive unit in the mode (same as confusion for specter's) which balance the ability a bit. But it still feels as ghost but closer to pvp-game ghost with old-one autocast snipe.
Hi Grant I know no shit about SC2 editor but I really would like to make my own Race swapped WoL with GGG mod launcher Do you know where I could find some sort of "tutorial" + you can use "singular they" if you don't know, it doesn't eat much bread and it feel better
For some changes that make be good for the viking, bashee and thor. For the thor they should've left the cannons as they were. A point and click delete button was pretty good to begin with when the game was released. But perhaps an addition would b either add nuke to it or give it a siege mode that locks it into place and barrages anything that comes within its target location. The viking can have a bombing run type deal like the boss fight in heart of the swarm had. It can dash a distance while dropping bombs in a straight line. While in walker mode, it can just fire a concussive shell that deals a good amount of damage. U can do the bombing thing with the bashee as well or for it's case, give it a turret that can fire air units with low damage but high fire rate with bonus damage to light air units. Or a barrage ability to deal damage to a target location or a corsair ability to disable ranged units within a small field to make it good against static defenses.
Not sure which you would put this interaction under, but the phantom dropship has the ability to pick up sieged siege tanks. I would literaly boost into a position and drop a bunch of tanks to clear an area.
Really enjoyed the series and the tier list. Being this tier list is based of how you liked the revamp and not power levels haha. I think it's very hard to change the meta unit siege tank due to it being a powerhouse for every installation of the game. Other than like making it auto bot like transformer. I don't think it could be changed in anyway possible to improve it. Any changes would therefore likely down size it's power
What if the firebats instead of doing damage overtime it’s somehow adds “light” to the units type.. doesnt remove “armoured” unless that’s what you want it to do and it makes firebats and other anti light more viable. Tho I get it would be really weird to add a really slow guy with a really fast boy. Just a interesting thought
For the thor, viking, and banshee. Okay, thor. I'm not certain if grant actually got the cannon upgrade for it, but if he did then this i think would be good. Give the thor the barrage ability (preferably with a sped up animation) and keep the single target one as a separate ability, possibly on a global cooldown. That way the thor has its usually block of stats dueling capacity and lovely AoE, but with mobieus spice of a nice anti capital ship ability. Viking. Hard unit to change, but given it's called the sepharim, have you considered giving it 7 wings and 537 eyes? Jokes aside, strap a couple of gatling guns to it's air model, it has 2 anti air attacks now. Maybe get rid of the transformation upgrade for that ine. It's walker mode is covered to well by the goliath in this mod for me to really consider working in that. It's nice, but not what the viking is about. And finally, the banshee. Give it the adepts shade ability, but forcibly disable its cloak for maybe 10 seconds after it teleports to the shade. That way you can sneak past defenses, offensively or defensively, but your cheese potential is pretty limited. Just suggestions for whoever it is runs the mod, I'm not in the discord so i won't be sticking these there.
How I would have changed the siege tank is removing the stun and making a Switch that can be used while in siege mode It can switch between normal siege mode and anti-air, using the missile turrets AoE attack style. Basically going from siege tank to flak cannon.
I'd be interested in seeing how this would hold up in a melee setting, yes including units that step on the toes of other units, rule of cool is more important in my opinion :b
I thought the ghost was more fun than the spectre, because even though auto-cast snipe is still really really strong, it feels a lot more satisfying to use.
Maybe Thors could take a page out of Battletech's book and replace their cannons with a jetpack ability, perhaps with an AoE damage and/or stun where they land. Death from above!
I thought their two upgrades were increased range and faster burrowing. The fast burrow upgrade does mean that they can drill down and start shooting almost immediately if they see an enemy while above ground and you're paying close attention, but they can't move and attack without changing modes.
@@sindrisuncatcher653 I'm basing my statement off using the cheat "alltech" that grants all upgrades and research. I haven't actually looked in the armory yet.
Predators are insanely good since they had the biological tag added to them so kerrigan can't just instakill them. There's probably better ways to kill her, but rule of cool wins.
Would the phantom dropship be op if it had a short term super cloak? kinda like Crooked Sam from CooP? dart past detention and start dropping, maybe enough time that if you ignited afterburners first you'd be halfway unloaded before cloak ran out?
I would love to see the firebat turn into the Raynor co op double hp firebat but have it cost 150 minerals. Meaning its useable with mech compositions, since it doesnt take valuable factory time. And i feel like it would make the thor more viable because the thor on its own feels slow to kill any significant number of enemies as it lacks any good zergling killer that pairs with it.
I kinda want thors to be able to fire while moving. It's a heavy walker mech, so it kinda makes sense that it can move forward while going weapons free. If the goliath can do it, why can't the thor?
Science vessel deserves S tier because i think grant forgot that science vessels provide the radar tower buff of +1 range and +9% attack speed FOR ALL YOUR UNITS NEAR IT, so having 1 or 2 in your army is VERY good
This. I’ve included at least one Science Vessel into every composition since I got it. And they have an auto attack now so you don’t have to worry about them flinging themselves super out of position if you A-Move (now just a little out of position)
He's rating them due to fun though, not about strength.
the scv should get S-tier because it still has the grapple ability while it's an scv so you can get it out of spots that it get's itself stuck in, the amount of times that i have used grapple to get it out of a spot is absurd XD
and you can use it to build up cliffs on missions like outbreak or devil's playground and move them around a lil faster if you want to micro them,i love it
@@martinpachu7125 Very true, and because grapple is single use queue, you can also spread scvs around if your mineral line is under attack by mutas or ultralisks
this should had been in the base game bc yeah, you get your scv trap after they build stuff lol
Completely agreed!! Just having them unstuck is a bliss!
I felt the factory units were the "weakest" (in design terms) of the bunch, while Barracks and Starports had very few stinkers and some absolute bangers (MISSILE FRIGATE BAYBEEEEEEE)
I think that this is somewhat intentional. At least it is intended by proxy. One of the goals of the mod was to make weaker units better than before meanwhile mostly maintaining stronger ones, so it's only natural that something like Tank would remain almost unchanged and Wraith will get a whole-ass remake from scratch
Except for the dropship. It feels really really bad. And despite firebats having a use, I feel like their lack of range in WoL where most enemies are highly ranged in later missions, or just swarm you, they don't feel like a good option at any point beyond the escort mission where you unlock them. They'll tank damage the same as before, but if you want a tank, marauders are just better since they also have damage (that they can deal without dying). Firebats won't get to do their damage most of the time - can't reach the armored units without dying, and being swarmed by melee units usually means light armor (zerglings). Often they can't be healed, because they go into melee range to attack, and medics (field engineers, w/e) are too far. Nice unit to put in bunkers though. I feel like if they got a bit of extra range and fired while moving they would be better. Maybe 3 range, so not quite melee, not quite ranged, but they'll stay in front of your army and be able to deal some damage before dying. I feel similarly about the hellion variant - it's good, but it gets outclassed quite fast in later missions. While it would have taken more work, I think it would have been better to redesign some of the weaker units rather than try to improve their base form. Ideally every unit should feel great to play in specific combinations and scenarios. The only scenarios firebats and hellions seem to work in, both in the main campaign and the mod, are the mission where they're unlocked. Past that point.. they're there, but you have limited resources and you won't be spending them on those jokers.
@@VasiliyOgniov Only that the effect was that the previous strongest units now suck in comparison, instead of being an equal lineup. Some things were definitely overtuned.
Small correction: The IRL C-130 Hercules cargo plane doesn't require hours to unload. They can palletize their cargo and drop it out the back mid-flight. The Hercules can carry 40 tons IIRC, so it's too small to carry an M1A2 Abrams.
Yeah if you want to transport an Abrams you need at least a C-17. Even the C-5 Galaxy/FRED can airdrop stuff.
The REAL strength of the C-130 is its flexibility. You have a C-130 variant for almost every role in the command structure. They’re neat.
Truly do hope we get a HOTS/LOTV version of this mod, this is by far the best custom campaign and when ever i reply wings it will be with this mod
I would love to see a version in those as well. I would love to see his take on the protoss
I used to enjoy Protoss over all races, and would take Zerg over Terran in almost any situation
This mod has somehow made me enjoy playing Terran over Protoss, and I actually decided to skip some of the protoss missions on purpose specifically so I can keep having fun with my grimmies
@@quasarstorm4009 But, my man, Nadrel’s got you covered! Type “hhh” in a Protoss mission and you’ll spawn a Hercules with 5 SCVs! Play Terran in the Protoss side missions!
@@AzureGhidorah Oh yeah! Thanks for reminding me!
@@AzureGhidorah "hhh" is busted on no-build missions, charged through Liberation Day with a maxed out army and it was hilarious
Hellion/Missile Frigate and Diamondback/Goliath were two of the most glorious army comps I had the pleasure of using in the Moebius Mod. A mobile hit-and-run comp that actually works in campaign was not something I thought I’d bear witness to, especially in ALL IN of all places.
Oh I hadn’t considered Diamondback/Goliath. Not sure if Hellions are necessary though if you’re using Frigates? But I can see the point. Hellions to torch the ground, Frigates to blast the air, etc etc. i actually have never made a Hellion beyond the two you get for free on Outbreak…
@@AzureGhidorah Hellions reduce the armor of units they hit, which means the Missile Frigate’s damage output skyrockets when together with the Hellion(also you’re gonna be floating minerals so). And for any big target that takes forever to kill even with that combo... SPIDER MINE
I hate when I start to run out of minerals/gas, and I end up with way more SCVs than I need to do things, and the HERC feels like a good way to take these extra SCVs and do something with the supply.
Hey Grant, I was thinking about the "always having to pick one unit or the other" in the research tree. Would you be able to reach out to some of the modders and see if they can set up an alternate use for extra research to unlock those units? I was thinking like, have the option to sell the additional research (after 25) or be able to unlock another research for an extra 5 research cost. Alternatively, maybe it's possible to "buy" a research tech from another vendor for a credit price. I have no idea if it's possible but I think it'd be neat so that you could try multiple of the unlockable units in the same run.
FYI, the cheat "alltech" was created by the modder to unlock all such things.
@@JWQweqOPDH Oh that's pretty cool, didn't know that! I was hoping for a little bit more integrated system so that Grant didn't feel like he was cheating and could still try out the units in combination if he wanted to. Thanks for letting me know though.
I think it's a cool idea for a future mod. I'll just have to say that extra Protoss research would unlock extra "Protoss" lab tech, and vice versa. I was initially thinking of the player being able to fill in the research tree again from bottom up, but then I don't think that there's enough research to actually do that (I think you get 30-35 of Protoss and Zerg?) and get the interesting stuff later (e.g. Vessels and Ravens).
Having both Planetary and Perdition unlocked can be useful in different missions.
@@amplesstratleholm7609 Both planetary and perdition encourages a bit of turtle-gameplay which is marginally more relaxed and less fun. But if they wanted to do it, could just remove the tech lab entirely and give out technologies as bonus mission rewards, eventually unlocking all technologies from both trees. So instead of +3 protoss research you get "Unlocks technology>. Same for zerg. I think there's enough bonus objectives overall to do it, though some might have to unlock more than one tech. I'm thinking objectives like "gather all the defiler samples" would give you one tech for each sample, for example. Pre-selected to ensure some balance exists. (Though with personal bias, I'd make autogas one of the very very first ones)
@@camdenyu1302 It shouldn't be. It's a showcase of the mod. And Grant already feels like cheating if he uses specters.
The Hercules dropship in my own opinion is kinda like cutters elephant from halo wars but more diverse
And it Fly and produce infantry and mechanised unit
I think the most important feature of the science vessel is actually the one you never mentioned: it counts as a sensor tower, including the range and fire rate bonus to all units. That makes a single science vessel into a huge force multiplier to any composition that has room for them, and the auto-cast on its guardian shield as soon as it gets targeted personally makes it much less vulnerable to anti-air than a single starship would normally be when floating over a mostly-ground army. And conceptually, I love the idea that it's not a repair bot, it's not a radiation bomber, a science vessel is all about *information*.
For the Phantom, I like to think of this less as a replacement for the medivac (a flying medic that also happens to be able to transport), but a replacement for the that adds transport capability. Much like with the hellion/vulture/condor bikes, the modder took two units that were heavily 'meh' and combined them into a single unit that's pretty good. It's not the best, because dropships are underwhelming in this campaign and the enemy always has detection, but within the limits of those two things it's pretty close to the best that it can be.
My last thought is about ghosts and spectres. In lore terms, it seems like one spectre should be straight up more powerful than one ghost, but more expensive to represent how hard they are to work with and the need to keep them supplied with the right drugs to keep them stable. But I don't think I've seen a single modder make the two asymmetrical; everybody seems to try to make them exactly equivalent to each other, and usually ends with the spectre being slightly weaker.
My first thought when Grant put the Legionnaire into A tier:
"Soo the Legionnaire belongs into the A tier, because it's Hotkey is on A aswell, oh, and it's good"
5:20 There can be concussions on the body since the suit is quite durable, but physical stress can cause one of the marines to, say, get hit in the head and die from the brain being damaged, or the ribs impale the heart, or just in general the soldier dies because the suit is almost skintight so damage to it means damage to the guy inside. The description of Marauders' kinetic foam mentions this as well, that upgrade makes them more durable because they can survive more impact thanks to the foam, but marines and other infantry units have none of that luxury and just have to hope nothing bad happens when they get hit by a zergling.
This is such a cool mod. I am not super great at playing SC2 and I’m so excited that the mod is playable at non-nightmare level difficulty. Super cool!
Actually you can just set the difficulty lower than nightmare.
@@Jeongkookkim noice
@@Jeongkookkim That’s what he said. That it is playable on a difficulty lower than Nightmare.
Definitely gonna second that. I love the AI improvements and how maps have been rearranged for Nightmare, and I love the new units to play with, but I'm too dang slow to play above hard mode.
dang, but I have to download and update it? Need to find patchnotes. I cant do Nightmare either. I completed 4 levels and then I got too frustrated on the 3 options I had. I am not fast enough either. I like playing at hard a lot, or even brutal when it comes to coop, but nightmare? no way.
I think a better addition to the crucio siege tank would’ve been to instead give it an active ability (auto cast or not) where the tank in siege mode could fire upwards and deal light damage in a medium radius, similar to the mengsk coop artillery bombardment. You could also put in the chance to stun alongside that if you wanted to keep the stun mechanic
Is that the Earthsplitter Ordinance of co-op Mengsk? I think that's cool. I'd add a delay so there's a slight skill expression (AIs tend to gather at certain places before attacking anyway), but the stun really has to go to compensate.
Most stuff dies to two Tank blasts anyway, and if the existing stun rules are applied wherein it doesn't affect massive or heroic (i.e. Ultras, Hybrid), which are the ones that actually survive a Tank line. It's too niche, only good against Protoss mech because they survive the first volley and are not massive. If you bump the stun chance up to 100% then it's just overpowered.
@@amplesstratleholm7609 That's an interesting thought, maybe siege mode -only- has earthshatter ordinance targetting and it works as normal, but instead of stun chance, (if there's a way to implement it) deal damage in short aoe when killing an enemy mechanical unit. Think shrapnel.
Alternatively, there was one mod... maybe Hyperion Crew? where each tank could individually be upgraded to either actually be good as a tank instead of an artillery piece but then they can never go into siege mode again, or slightly better as an artillery piece but become immobile from that point forward. I thought that was a cool upgrade, not changing the purpose of the unit but having a big effect on how you actually use them.
@@sindrisuncatcher653 It was Hyperion Crew.
Tank upgrade is garbage, Siege upgrade is basically a Grand Cannon straight from Red Alert 2.
No.
The Siege Tank needs _something._
Like, Siege Tanks were _the_ unit that you built in SC1. Then SC2 dropped the ball and made Marines, Vikings and BCs the meta, unfortunately.
You can't use Tanks in WoL as you could in SC1 - it'd be great to have SC1 STs in SC1-like environment with SC2 QoL improvements, innit? But we have WoL, a great campaign that unfortunately hates drops, Wraiths and Banshees and dislikes mech as a whole, making bio and air it's favorite kid that gets all the good ice cream.
I genuinely think that Tanks are in the same covet as the Dropships - their niche can't be used in the campaign properly. Maybe you could combine those units for maximum effect?)))
Hey Grant, do you plan on coming back sometime to showcase the "evil" modifier or whatever it was which we didn't get to see? having watched the missions I feel some could do with a little more challenge, maybe not evil 100 but evil 50 for sure. Just seeing how these stronger units would fair against it would be interesting, and what cheeses you'll come up with.
Thanks for the amazing mod Nadrel and Grant for the series
My favourite things about Moebius Mod aren't even directly part of the unit and tech reworks, it's various misc changes, both small and large, that make it COMFY to play.
Regenerative Resource Nodes, both Mineral and Vespene, slower play is neither excessively punished or excessively rewarded.
Hero units becoming a permanent fixture in your arsenal including most missions having at least one hero with your starting units.
It's not just Jim every time either, you've got all four heroes appearing regularly through the whole campaign. They're no-longer a gimmick appearing for only a single mission.
More Objectives -> More Mission Rewards -> broader access to the tech-tree, less requirement to over-think long-term strategy.
The fact you get a little bit of bonus cash even playing archive missions is also nice if you want to be more completionist with upgrades, but even that isn't entirely needed with how generous the rewards are.
If you feel like it, there's also the added Cheat Codes; AllBuild Alltech and HHH to play some silly gimmicks like early units or having both sides of tech tree lockout choice in the lab / ghost+spectre
Another upside for the widow mine is the relatively low cost (75/25) for quick static defense, especially since every unit in this mod is more expensive.
Widow Mine/Planetary/Siege Tank feels genuinely unbreakable.
Fun tier list.
Super-Awesome, All-round Good, Basic, Crappy, Deep Flaws.
Really enjoyed your playthrough.
Wonder if it'd be possible to mod it so that you could buy any laboratory upgrades you don't pick with credits as well as the other option through protoss / zerg research, so as to enable the player to potentially research everything, though in reality it should probably be balanced so that you cannot have enough credits for both that, and the unit upgrades you might want.
After playing command & conquer, i think drop ships, transports would need to be designed in tandem with the map rather than the content of the mission. The base purpose is to be an alternate mode of travel for certain units so when the map is so small and everything important is connected by land, there isnt a use case that necessitates transports or dropships
unfortunately the famed engineer/flak truck combo doesn't exist in SC2
one of the rare uses of transport mechanics
"And I'm a fish"
Didn't expect a tier list on this but yay!
I think even its the same tier, you can still decide which one is the better than the orther and put them at the front.
One thing I like about SC1 campaign is that there are many missions that u must use the dropship and it is also fun to play unlike in SC2 campaign.
Yes but the waves and defending units are nowhere near close in size compared to the ones in SC2 brutal. Good luck unloading 16 units one by one when the enemy has a meat grinder waiting for them.
@@Leonhart_93 _cough cough_ Mass Recall _cough cough_
@@The-jy3yq The hard mode on that one is indeed quite hard, but at the same time it's clear it's quite a lot easier there to load and unload all of your army in 10 transports if you so wanted.
That being said, I remember like at most 2 instances when I had to do that.
Something I love about this mod is that I had many thoughts about units, like the dropship with cloack that heals the units inside, the diamondback with inmortal shields, battlecruiser with speed boost, hero units, specially Stetman with irradiate... And then this mod came out with all that I wished for, it's insane!
After watching all the other tier lists, this finally popped into my recommended. Amazing and fabulous!
Stealth Predators are absolute S Tier. Who needs Bunker Walls when you have non detectable Stealthy Boys.
When I saw the Missile Frigate I thought "Valkyrie on crack", it feels like a mix of the OG BW Valkyrie and the anti-ground variant of the Valkyrie in the SC1 Huncraft mod, plus the LotV Carrier's repair drones.
I think it would've been neat to see Cyclones and Warhounds added to the base game.
Variety is always nice. Maybe make it so you get cyclones/warhounds and ghosts if you side with nova, and Spectre's and Tosh if you side with him?
Definitely would have liked a warhound variant with its own ability set instead of Thors, and Cyclones with their own set of abilities instead of siege tanks. I mean, siege tanks are good, but the problem with them is that they're so good you'll make them every mission starting from when you unlock them. Removing siege tank would allow other units to shine. One of the Cyclone's abilities could be the liberator attack field, but (if possible) a wide rectangle and air-exclusive. They could act like mobile missile turrets that way. Other ability could have been to increase fire rate the longer you attack any single unit. Remove the base lock-on ability because the enemy doesn't really retreat when attacking you, and when you attack the enemy, you keep advancing anyway. Not sure what Warhound could have been, maybe a targeted drakken laser-kind of thing that disables the Warhound while firing? Alternatively making the warhound a mega-herc (let's face it they look like giant hercs) would have been pretty memey.
@@domacleod Tanks are fine, they are a standard unit similar to the marine or stalker. Hard not to use in every mission.
@@Leonhart_93 Precisely why they should be changed up in mods. Change up the pace, don't rely on tanks for defense, etc.
@@domacleod Then give them an ability that shines in offense, like fast siege up.
Some changes/upgades for the units Grant mentioned:
Thor: Make it so each thor have a single nuclear missile that is stronger (but not as much) then the normal ones, it fits with the Lore and make it up for the lack of the area damage cannon while not making it too OP since you only get one per thor.
Banshee: I don't know if it's possible, but make it so if you have 5 (or more) banshes gives you an option to make an airstrike (like the one in the cutscene of gates of hell) in a visible area of the map.
Dropship: Instead of an infinite cloak, what about giving it a timed super cloak? it would solve the problem of anti drop mechanics while not making it super OP since the drops take some time to complete, so if you drop in an area full of anti air you will probably lose the unit.
Viking: ...i got nothing, for real, maybe add a little speed boost or atk speed boost, but aside from that, i got nothing
Spectre: If the confusion is too OP, what about a limited mind control? like, the spectre can mind control a unit, but only one unit per spectre and the unit is freed when the specter died, kinda like what nova did, or make it so it can perma control but each spectre have a limited amount of charges of it (like 2, same with the medic's turrets)
Perhaps Vikings should get Missile Pods?))
On a more serious note, I think that their Assault Mode should get a buff. Something like a "worse Goliath on land, sniper in the air".
Perhaps you rip apart Co-op Mengsk's Sky Furies and try to build something out of it?
I genuinely like the idea of "I shoot on ground, I don't die on ground, I fly and I have a second life". That's kinda fitting with the whole regeneration thing infantrymen and Thors got going on...
Perhaps try to give them some sort of stim to make them akin to Marines...that don't have stim in this mod! Stim is an exclusive upgrade! Stimmed Vikings, go!
@@The-jy3yq maybe make is so if they die they respawn at half HP and cannot land anymore?
When I used recall, it was so overpowered.
What I did was I had a bunch of the "movey while shootey" units charge in, then I'd recall almost immediately. Then I'd heal up and charge in again. I did this a couple of times, and I hardly lost anyone.
Now we need moebius mod medics only with auto-turret+repair spam
I like the way you think. How many grenades does it take to bring down an ultralisk anyway?
@@sindrisuncatcher653 If I remember, the damage on their flashbangs is only anti-light, so... infinite.
@@Jeff_the_Hobo Hrm. That might complicate the medics only run. Gonna have to carefully calculate how many turrets you need to spend to bring down each air or armored unit as you meet them, so you can ration them and not run out of your finite number of bullets. Gonna have to also be a lot of bait and ambush play. I think Grant could pull it off though, and it would be fun to watch.
@@sindrisuncatcher653 Does Stetmann count as a Medic?
@@The-jy3yq I'm tempted to say yes just because it would make some no-build segments into Stetmann only instead of things that aren't counted in the challenge.
Btw, Ghosts also stun mechanical units with EMP in this mod, so ghosts are even BETTER than what grant just said
the siege tank would have worked great if it did the same as co op mengsk, allow it to stun 100% of the time once every X seconds
For the banshees, I think a good thing would be to give them the AOE of nova's banshees and make it cost energy. As a counterbalance, make them have an ability that regenerates their energy when killing an ennemy unit, making them into really cool extremely offensive stealth bombers.
My thought at that point of the video was banshees with blink. Terran has a few ghost-themed units with cloak (banshee, wraith, ghost, spectre) all of which have cloak, so why not lean into the elusive / spectral angle and make banshees extra hard to pin down? Also has fun interactions with projectile speeds.
@@phaneros The moebius mod only has 2 exploitable cloaked units sincz you have to choose ghost or specter and don't have the wraith and I think it would fit the lore more that the banshees would be a heavy bomber type unit. Blink I would give to the thors to compensate their clunkiness and turn them into absurdly slow but absurdly strong stalkers
I was thinking about the Banshee, and my thought was giving it a bombing run ability - a fast "dash" style ability that deals a bunch of damage to anything on the ground beneath it. With one banshee, no big deal, but with multiple Banshees a scary carpet bombing. Maybe include Hardened Shields - either as a passive or just for the duration of the carpet bomb - to make them scary units able to do fast response things.
@@Shadesight That could be a fun idea but I don't think hardened shield would be good. A bombing run need to be risky otherwise it's just infinity free value and the diamondback already has hardened shield so it would be a bit redundant.
@@tetsudo6934 I dunno, I was thinking bombing run on a timed cooldown - and I was thinking of a temporary hardened shield to allow it to be used offensively without a guaranteed overextension. While the hardened shield does bump with the DBack, you have them for different reasons - the DBack is a bulkier unit, more like an MBT, while a Banshee with a temporary hardened shield - or other supporting defensive buff - doubles down on its role as a strike package.
You might be right about the defensive buff providing too much value, but if the bombing run could only be used in an already-controlled space, then it becomes a clincher instead of an opener, and I feel like a banshee bombing run would be a very cool opener.
i am curious about the bunker planetary
One niche way of using the phantom dropship I can think of would be against Zerg.
slap those bad boys with irradiate, cloak and then fly into the enemy for meme damage.
The ghost and specters being op as all hell makes sense i think. They are the elite forces, they should be able to wreck stuff.
Ghosts were real nice during All In, emp Kerri and then she's far less dangerous.
The mod changed the rng component of the crusio siege tank.
It stun every 2 attack instead of having 50% chance to stun
Just got curios suggestion for siege tank - add toggle for tanks to fire either in sync or out of sync. When you have battery of 3..5 tanks sync firing will take down wave of bulky units all at once. And when they are firing out of sync they will not waste additional shots stomping squishes. Skill-based siege tanks, yeah!
Ghosts are good, but they cannot target massive units with snipe. So cant mass snipe the leviathan in shatter the sky so sad.
I can only assume that they refuse to snipe it out of pride. A blind cripple with parkinson's could hit it, so it's not worth 'sniping'
I played this custom campaign, and there are some changes
SCV don't transform to hercs anymore, but can still use the hook
5:30 Welp, better prepare for flashbang nerfs
Ngl Grant. I literally mined out All In, made as many field engineers and ghosts as I could with enough to get Stetmann. Killed all my bunkers and extra units. And just sat there as Kerrigan tried to razorswarm them all. 70 snipes later she is gone and I haven't lost a single supply. It is broken beyond belief.
I love the missile frigate. If you want a building to never die, park one near it, along with a medic and an scv. All 3 can fix it at the same time.
They should have gave the Banshee the ability to throw the cluster grenades reapers had while lowering the time they had invisible.Make them the perfect surgical strike unity that hits hard and runs away.
I think the phantom dropship can be made viable if it had a super fast self-repair ability that triggers when it takes no damage after x amount of time.
This would solve 1) the problem of misplays where a dropship can get too damaged while behind enemy lines and it becomes too risky to either escape or continue the mission
2) it also reduces the micro requirement to keep a dropship strat viable. Getting a good infiltration going is already Mico intensive enough, you also have to remember to set a repair guy afterwards. With a self-repair ability, you can be sure that the dropship will always be available for your next infiltration play.
One gripe I have with Medics/Field Engineers: the turrets are maddening to place in big numbers, or in combat. Each turret is a 2x2 structure and won't drop if a unit even thinks about being too close. The deeper you go in the game, the bigger the units and armies, and the more difficult placing a turret becomes. Not to mention it impedes movement. The ability quickly became a liability. I would take a nerf to turret damage in exchange of being able to place them from further away.
The Raven seeker missile had a few changes done to it I think. I am pretty sure the delay after firing was longer, but it did more damage. It felt like it had longer range too, but I'm not sure.
I love the "liberator" eventhough it's super expensive. They control super well and not super punishing if you make a mistake since it has drone healing
I think the condor hellion has regenerating mines, doesn't it?
Yes, but it’s a long one at 90 seconds.
I really wanna see Grant do a field tech only run of this mod
I think one way to redesign the Siege Tank into an interesting unit is to remove the splash damage and reduce the damage, but make it fire MUCH faster at the same range, sort of like the TR17 from UPL.
Alternatively, make it a napalm tank that deals anti-light damage and leaves burning areas on impact.
Another rework for the Thor would be to give it its own Siege Mode-like thing, but with railguns on the back that specifically target air units. Parking 1-2 Thors at your defensive lines then becomes a fantastic way to shore up your anti-air, or they can even park near the command center to deal with enemy air waves going for your mineral line.
Vikings and Banshees are sort of quintessential. Maybe replace the Banshee with a suped-up Wraith that deals actually passable ground damage?
Don't forget that ghosts also have emp that stuns mechanical stuff
Spectre: this unit is so OP I didn't like to use it -> B tier.
Made me chuckle
Mass ghost in this mod was so busted, they obliterate everything and with an attack range of 9 on top of snipe they outrange all detection in the game with permanent cloak to boot. Missile Frigate I felt invalidated the BC entirely. Its immensely durable, does high DPS, outranges nearly every static AA defense in the game. Its basically a Terran LotV Carrier. Mass em up and they can amove everything in the game.
i feel the siege tank should had been:
tank mode: its attack is just the siege mode attack. so you can react faster with them if they get attack while sieging a enemy base.
siege tank mode: change to attack only air units but is super slow in attacking, so it wont outright replace missile turrets. they're more a back up air defense.
Just wondering. What would you think of having the Siege Tank's RNG replaced with a pair of cooldowns? (Maybe share the cooldowns instead)
maybe a "Stun Shell" - (Fires a special shot with bonus range, which does little damage, Which stuns)
and something like "Incediary Shell" - (Does little damage with bonus range, But applies a powerful burning effect)
So it's more intresting than "Oh it fires special shells sometimes" and give you control to use it as a support unit for sieges.
A way the siege tank could have worked could be stunning if the blast hits more than 2 units, or slow and reduce units range by 1 on units hit by it (or maybe the medic's granade effect). That way you keep the element of supression, making it so the tank wants to target clumps of enemies to use their full strength instead of just being a default siege tank with RNG.
Imagine doing co-op or pvp with the mobius units
One heck of an experience for sure
please add this to the tier list playlist
I believe the ghost's snipe can't target massive unit in the mode (same as confusion for specter's) which balance the ability a bit. But it still feels as ghost but closer to pvp-game ghost with old-one autocast snipe.
Hi Grant I know no shit about SC2 editor but I really would like to make my own Race swapped WoL with GGG mod launcher
Do you know where I could find some sort of "tutorial"
+ you can use "singular they" if you don't know, it doesn't eat much bread and it feel better
For some changes that make be good for the viking, bashee and thor.
For the thor they should've left the cannons as they were. A point and click delete button was pretty good to begin with when the game was released. But perhaps an addition would b either add nuke to it or give it a siege mode that locks it into place and barrages anything that comes within its target location.
The viking can have a bombing run type deal like the boss fight in heart of the swarm had. It can dash a distance while dropping bombs in a straight line. While in walker mode, it can just fire a concussive shell that deals a good amount of damage.
U can do the bombing thing with the bashee as well or for it's case, give it a turret that can fire air units with low damage but high fire rate with bonus damage to light air units. Or a barrage ability to deal damage to a target location or a corsair ability to disable ranged units within a small field to make it good against static defenses.
Not sure which you would put this interaction under, but the phantom dropship has the ability to pick up sieged siege tanks. I would literaly boost into a position and drop a bunch of tanks to clear an area.
What about the dominion mercs?
Really enjoyed the series and the tier list. Being this tier list is based of how you liked the revamp and not power levels haha. I think it's very hard to change the meta unit siege tank due to it being a powerhouse for every installation of the game. Other than like making it auto bot like transformer. I don't think it could be changed in anyway possible to improve it. Any changes would therefore likely down size it's power
What if the firebats instead of doing damage overtime it’s somehow adds “light” to the units type.. doesnt remove “armoured” unless that’s what you want it to do and it makes firebats and other anti light more viable. Tho I get it would be really weird to add a really slow guy with a really fast boy. Just a interesting thought
i think that, while ghost might be as strong as specters, auto snipe is much more fun than confusion. so i'd give em higher grade ;p
The things I'd do to get missile frigates in co-op....
For the thor, viking, and banshee.
Okay, thor. I'm not certain if grant actually got the cannon upgrade for it, but if he did then this i think would be good.
Give the thor the barrage ability (preferably with a sped up animation) and keep the single target one as a separate ability, possibly on a global cooldown. That way the thor has its usually block of stats dueling capacity and lovely AoE, but with mobieus spice of a nice anti capital ship ability.
Viking. Hard unit to change, but given it's called the sepharim, have you considered giving it 7 wings and 537 eyes?
Jokes aside, strap a couple of gatling guns to it's air model, it has 2 anti air attacks now. Maybe get rid of the transformation upgrade for that ine. It's walker mode is covered to well by the goliath in this mod for me to really consider working in that. It's nice, but not what the viking is about.
And finally, the banshee. Give it the adepts shade ability, but forcibly disable its cloak for maybe 10 seconds after it teleports to the shade. That way you can sneak past defenses, offensively or defensively, but your cheese potential is pretty limited.
Just suggestions for whoever it is runs the mod, I'm not in the discord so i won't be sticking these there.
me: looking at legionaire's hotkey A next to A tier then looks at swan hotkey
also me: ass now is perfection
How I would have changed the siege tank is removing the stun and making a Switch that can be used while in siege mode
It can switch between normal siege mode and anti-air, using the missile turrets AoE attack style. Basically going from siege tank to flak cannon.
I'd be interested in seeing how this would hold up in a melee setting, yes including units that step on the toes of other units, rule of cool is more important in my opinion :b
i think a good boost to banshee is a upgrade that give banshee perm cloak.
for the viking, i think mengsk viking would be a good model for mobieus
Moebius chalenge run could be interesting
Predator vs Kerrigan was a fun time
I might not be subscribed but I loved the series when you played the moebius mod it was the bomb dude
Honestly the siege tank is automatically my favorite unit in any campaign
I thought the ghost was more fun than the spectre, because even though auto-cast snipe is still really really strong, it feels a lot more satisfying to use.
Thor coulda been entirely replaced with the Warhound (only Mengsk gets these) and been entirely custom with what it does
Maybe Thors could take a page out of Battletech's book and replace their cannons with a jetpack ability, perhaps with an AoE damage and/or stun where they land. Death from above!
I think Widow Mines have an upgrade to fire without burrowing. Not sure if Grant knows this.
I thought their two upgrades were increased range and faster burrowing. The fast burrow upgrade does mean that they can drill down and start shooting almost immediately if they see an enemy while above ground and you're paying close attention, but they can't move and attack without changing modes.
@@sindrisuncatcher653 I'm basing my statement off using the cheat "alltech" that grants all upgrades and research. I haven't actually looked in the armory yet.
Wraith is good for its name. If you watch recent ASL it was used in a double starport build to amazing ro8 win.
I actively dislike randomness, says the man who made a randomizer campaign lol
Pretty good mod I do have to say.
Predators are insanely good since they had the biological tag added to them so kerrigan can't just instakill them. There's probably better ways to kill her, but rule of cool wins.
you can put sieged siege tanks in a drop ship and a lot of them.
now that's what I've been waiting for! thanks!
Would the phantom dropship be op if it had a short term super cloak? kinda like Crooked Sam from CooP?
dart past detention and start dropping, maybe enough time that if you ignited afterburners first you'd be halfway unloaded before cloak ran out?
um, the tank i think, should be much higher, not only they can transform instantly, their crucio cannons STUN targets, which is huge.
Positive skewed Bell Curve
mass ghosts felt nice, but the fact they couldn't snipe massive units made them harder to use against ultras and the Levi
I would love to see the firebat turn into the Raynor co op double hp firebat but have it cost 150 minerals. Meaning its useable with mech compositions, since it doesnt take valuable factory time. And i feel like it would make the thor more viable because the thor on its own feels slow to kill any significant number of enemies as it lacks any good zergling killer that pairs with it.
Perhaps change one of the upgrades to allow Firebats to be built without a Tech Lab?
Maybe even include the resource change in it?
auto cast irradiate was amazing!
I kinda want thors to be able to fire while moving. It's a heavy walker mech, so it kinda makes sense that it can move forward while going weapons free. If the goliath can do it, why can't the thor?
ironic how ghost is still unkeyed even in the tier list
I wonder if one day we will have 1v1 on the arcade of moebius or legacy of the meme. Or one against the other xD
I think a slow for the siege tank or a stun on light units would be better.
Doesn't the cloak-dropship have an attack? Did Grant ever see that?