I'll say, as a woman in her senior years, respect is a lost art amongst people my age, sadly. They have a lifetime of getting away with bad behaviour, and that has provided positive reinforcement, so there's no incentive to understand what respect actually is. There's a lot of narcissism too, so it's all about 'YOU need to respect ME' and "YOU need to earn MY respect" rather than looking outward, and being courteous. I don't know why this is; possibly as we age, our behaviours are habits, and habits are hard to change. I cringe when I look back and realize what I thought was cajoling, or teasing or just good natured fun, was sometimes done at my own, or someone else's expense. It makes me overly cautious when I interact with people now. Not a bad thing. Courtesy, manners, respect; this is the glue required for a healthy stable launch pad in life. I wish this type of format and conversation was available in my younger years. All we had was Phil Donahue in my day.
Y'all NAILED it on the topic of "standing up to difficult personalities" AND that these personalities are NOT necessarily aware of their being difficult towards us. When we change our behavior, it only causes the other(s) to change their behaviors towards us. I LOVE the grace that you both give to difficult people AND to yourselves.
First of all, I love your podcast! I want to share (from my experience, unfortunately) that setting boundaries with difficult people can also escalate into abusive tirades. I have no regrets about the boundaries that I set but it did reach a point where I had to sever ties in order to protect myself. I guess what I’m trying to say is that the worst case scenario may be very likely and it’s important to be prepared for that as well
Yes if they are actually narcissistic aka not open to self reflection/ taking responsibility for their actions then they will use anything you communicate about your needs, especially framed in the negative as behavior you won’t accept, against you. That can take different forms, sometimes denying, belittling, deflecting, etc. (But it’s also worth noting, sometimes people don’t actually express their needs in a clear and direct way aka they expect you to practically mind read. And then they get mad at you as if it was intentional. Obvs referring to personal experience: I thought this somewhat “mean humor” “friend” was just being snarky about hugging - turns out they actually didn’t like it. They lashed out in a very passive aggressive and public way.) There’s an excellent Dr Ramani video on this, interviewed by Mel Robbins
The way Caroline described group therapy arose such a feeling of dread in my heart that I think perhaps I am not ready for that even a little. I would absolutely walk in there to get a good grade in group therapy, which is, of course, normal to want and possible to achieve
Many manipulative people also assume other people are manipulative. They can’t see your genuine emotions and communication as what it is. They think you are playing a game and resist connection. Holding firm and talking emotion out of your response can be much more effective in communicating how serious you are.
I refer to the F boy friends as “sometime friends” because whenever they try to make plans, the day and time is always “sometime” and never a specific time. Obviously sometime never comes but I always got satisfaction from providing specific days and times and even activities to do knowing that they would respond with, “yeah sometime” because no one could ever lay the blame on me. But ultimately those “friendships” always fizzle out on their own.
Really loved this episode guys!! Dealing with one of those complicated personalities can be so difficult, and standing my ground and owning my feelings on the horrible behavior toward me from this person has truly been the only way to change the dynamic. Bravo! Will be coming back to reference it for sure!
This pierced my soul. I am friendless lately and I am finally facing the fact that I can't and don't want to keep cheering and propping people up to be "friends" of mine even though they are flipping on me all the time. I blame myself constantly for not accommodating, for having a life style non-conducive to easy friendships. (I travel with my husband. Have been traveling for many years). I am still me. Right? I am available, I care, I am thoughtful and want to share love, care, ideas etc. Funny how I am not taking things personally. I am not upset with people, I am just disheartened and disappointed and lonely. Hahaha and this rant was in response to the small kahuna. The big one resonated on a whole new level. I have a sister-bitch I finally distanced myself from for the behavior Caroline is describing about her relative (or someone she can't completely disengage from). Unlike Caroline, I am not going to keep my sister in my life anymore. I love her very much, but I don't like the way she is treating me (or other people), so sister no more
That he would be mostly in charge of all grocery shopping and cooking. That would be his lane. And Caroline would have different lanes, too. Rather than sharing all responsibilities 50/50. Each partner is more in charge of different areas/responsibilities.
I think what I struggle with is how do you not then lose all respect for a "difficult personality" person when they change their behavior because you had to force a tough boundary on them? A lot of times if that happens my immediately feeling is "Why did it take me having to enforce this boundary that was really difficult for me to enforce in order for you to not treat me like crap?"
This is the most balanced episode to date. I love y'all but this is the first time Caroline did not continuously interrupt/speak over Jess, but a respectful back and forth while still keeping the flow/vibe and I'm here for it!
Caroline, How do you ship meals to yourself in a city your traveling to? Does the airbnb owner let You send stuff to that address? Or, does the hotel your staying at have kitchens and you ship stuff to them?? I really want to know as this is always an issue for me when i travel 🙏
I always wonder about that. Like is it that they know that they are being manipulative or are they emotionally unstable/rationalizing their behavior? I can be flaky sometimes but I know it’s from depression, adhd, etc (but also there are people that I feel ambivalent about so it feels like more of sn effort to follow through sometimes and I feel guilty for being judgmental).
Are you an enneagram 8, Caroline? Or maybe a reactive 6 because you’re paranoid and stressed? lol you guys have to look into the enneagram. Basically whatever description makes you the most uncomfortable with yourself is the personality that fits you. It gets to your motivations for doing things.
I'll say, as a woman in her senior years, respect is a lost art amongst people my age, sadly. They have a lifetime of getting away with bad behaviour, and that has provided positive reinforcement, so there's no incentive to understand what respect actually is. There's a lot of narcissism too, so it's all about 'YOU need to respect ME' and "YOU need to earn MY respect" rather than looking outward, and being courteous. I don't know why this is; possibly as we age, our behaviours are habits, and habits are hard to change. I cringe when I look back and realize what I thought was cajoling, or teasing or just good natured fun, was sometimes done at my own, or someone else's expense. It makes me overly cautious when I interact with people now. Not a bad thing. Courtesy, manners, respect; this is the glue required for a healthy stable launch pad in life. I wish this type of format and conversation was available in my younger years. All we had was Phil Donahue in my day.
Y'all NAILED it on the topic of "standing up to difficult personalities" AND that these personalities are NOT necessarily aware of their being difficult towards us. When we change our behavior, it only causes the other(s) to change their behaviors towards us. I LOVE the grace that you both give to difficult people AND to yourselves.
I recently let go of an acquaintance because of the exact dynamic you’re talking about. The “you up?” comment is so real!!
First of all, I love your podcast! I want to share (from my experience, unfortunately) that setting boundaries with difficult people can also escalate into abusive tirades. I have no regrets about the boundaries that I set but it did reach a point where I had to sever ties in order to protect myself. I guess what I’m trying to say is that the worst case scenario may be very likely and it’s important to be prepared for that as well
Yes if they are actually narcissistic aka not open to self reflection/ taking responsibility for their actions then they will use anything you communicate about your needs, especially framed in the negative as behavior you won’t accept, against you. That can take different forms, sometimes denying, belittling, deflecting, etc. (But it’s also worth noting, sometimes people don’t actually express their needs in a clear and direct way aka they expect you to practically mind read. And then they get mad at you as if it was intentional. Obvs referring to personal experience: I thought this somewhat “mean humor” “friend” was just being snarky about hugging - turns out they actually didn’t like it. They lashed out in a very passive aggressive and public way.) There’s an excellent Dr Ramani video on this, interviewed by Mel Robbins
The way Caroline described group therapy arose such a feeling of dread in my heart that I think perhaps I am not ready for that even a little. I would absolutely walk in there to get a good grade in group therapy, which is, of course, normal to want and possible to achieve
This podcast has become a regular part of my weekly routine to help me remember my worth, thank you!
Many manipulative people also assume other people are manipulative. They can’t see your genuine emotions and communication as what it is. They think you are playing a game and resist connection. Holding firm and talking emotion out of your response can be much more effective in communicating how serious you are.
I refer to the F boy friends as “sometime friends” because whenever they try to make plans, the day and time is always “sometime” and never a specific time. Obviously sometime never comes but I always got satisfaction from providing specific days and times and even activities to do knowing that they would respond with, “yeah sometime” because no one could ever lay the blame on me. But ultimately those “friendships” always fizzle out on their own.
Really loved this episode guys!! Dealing with one of those complicated personalities can be so difficult, and standing my ground and owning my feelings on the horrible behavior toward me from this person has truly been the only way to change the dynamic. Bravo! Will be coming back to reference it for sure!
Me, a complete and utter dork for all things medieval: JOUST, JESSICA. MEDIEVAL TIMES HAS JOUSTING.
i was cackling every time she said "horse races and sword fighting" like that's technically correct
Omg thank you, I was also sitting there like "JESSICA ITS CALLED JOUSTING!"
This pierced my soul. I am friendless lately and I am finally facing the fact that I can't and don't want to keep cheering and propping people up to be "friends" of mine even though they are flipping on me all the time. I blame myself constantly for not accommodating, for having a life style non-conducive to easy friendships. (I travel with my husband. Have been traveling for many years). I am still me. Right? I am available, I care, I am thoughtful and want to share love, care, ideas etc. Funny how I am not taking things personally. I am not upset with people, I am just disheartened and disappointed and lonely. Hahaha and this rant was in response to the small kahuna.
The big one resonated on a whole new level. I have a sister-bitch I finally distanced myself from for the behavior Caroline is describing about her relative (or someone she can't completely disengage from). Unlike Caroline, I am not going to keep my sister in my life anymore. I love her very much, but I don't like the way she is treating me (or other people), so sister no more
I think in my relationships I like to see reciprocity. If I don't, then chances are I will not continue with that relationship
Wait... what does Justin think about grocery shopping?!
The Spotify version has this part included! I had to switch over because I was so curious. Haha
That he would be mostly in charge of all grocery shopping and cooking. That would be his lane. And Caroline would have different lanes, too. Rather than sharing all responsibilities 50/50. Each partner is more in charge of different areas/responsibilities.
I need both of your wise calming voice to rip apart the nightmare elect. Or. You know. Just soothe the fear and the PTSD from the “amazing comeback”
I think what I struggle with is how do you not then lose all respect for a "difficult personality" person when they change their behavior because you had to force a tough boundary on them? A lot of times if that happens my immediately feeling is "Why did it take me having to enforce this boundary that was really difficult for me to enforce in order for you to not treat me like crap?"
This is the most balanced episode to date. I love y'all but this is the first time Caroline did not continuously interrupt/speak over Jess, but a respectful back and forth while still keeping the flow/vibe and I'm here for it!
I hope comments like these don’t change Caroline’s essence. She might think we want a mellow version of herself and both are great!
Medieval Times is great 👍
Caroline, How do you ship meals to yourself in a city your traveling to? Does the airbnb owner let
You send stuff to that address? Or, does the hotel your staying at have kitchens and you ship stuff to them?? I really want to know as this is always an issue for me when i travel 🙏
Read Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents (good for everyone).
Great book!
I listened to the audiobook and honestly need to read or relisten to it. Truly amazing
There are people though who are extreemly conscious and deliberat in their manipulation.
I always wonder about that. Like is it that they know that they are being manipulative or are they emotionally unstable/rationalizing their behavior? I can be flaky sometimes but I know it’s from depression, adhd, etc (but also there are people that I feel ambivalent about so it feels like more of sn effort to follow through sometimes and I feel guilty for being judgmental).
First law of thermodynamics 45:52
Where’s that email? I don’t have IG 😢
Are you an enneagram 8, Caroline? Or maybe a reactive 6 because you’re paranoid and stressed? lol you guys have to look into the enneagram. Basically whatever description makes you the most uncomfortable with yourself is the personality that fits you. It gets to your motivations for doing things.