Where I live and ride they both perform well on the trails and on the pavement I have a hub and middrive ebike the hub is way easier to ride at a constant 32km/h well pedaling with the hub motor I can go for hours well pedaling but on my middrive with the tourqe sensor when you get tired and let off so does the motor so it definitely harder to maintain a constant speed but my mid drive can climb a mountain and bring me to 50+km/h I reached 65km/h downhill
When are they going to make a geared hub motor that will fit in a cast or carbon fiber (preferably) rear fat tire rim? I would love to see that for a 26” X 4“ wide rim! If anybody knows of one especially if it’s a Grin Technologies or Bafang 750 Watt or more, please let me know ASAP! Thank you
Mid Drive all the way for me, another plus to the Mid Drive is the weight of the motor is central on the bike, greatly changing how the bike feels on the road.
Two years later....I'm thinking about E, thank you UA-cam for an overload of information. I'm 61, used to be a bike messenger in ancient history. I can still ride 50miles a day, but hills are taking me out! I ride the street with occasional urban off-road. I've decided on mid drive, I don't need speed, I need Hill Help. The torque sensor with no or low latency, not cadence. Good video!
Ive ran a bafang 750w fatbike hub at 2000w peak on my DH bike for years and its has many advantages, constant power regardless of gear, no chain wear and the ability to hit climbs at speed then keep powering as the speed drops. It works very well on fast single track and no clearance issues at the bb.
I found the answer to the question of which motor is best. Simply put BOTH! On the other end of the chain from my Bafang sets a QS 205 hub motor. They are fed by two 72v 25ah triangular batteries. Using both at once turns bad hills in my area into jump ramps and problems with heat have completely disappeared even at highway speeds. Plus I am hard to beat across an intersection! The primary is a 52 tooth and the final is a 11 tooth. The hub keeps the Bafang from over heating at low speed and the mid drive acts as an afterburner for the hub. (I used to build the F15 fighter bomber)
Another thing to mention would be the cost difference between the two. Part of the reason I went with a hub motor was it seemed a little less expensive. Can’t wait to get my ebike.
Here's a tip for u and something I don't think he mentioned. If one is going mid-drive, they should find out if the bike has an accelerator so you don't have to pedal. I have the Sondors MXS hub drive and wouldn't want to be without mine. First advantage is that it helps me get on the bike re getting it moving while I'm just standing on a pedal before swinging my leg around. Great at stoplights to get it going.. 2nd is immediate power to race a stoplight, have more advantage in traffic etc.
@@deanrivers6200 my mid drive has a throttle and also the advantage of being able to use the gears to either increase torque for better hill climbing or increase speed for faster driving. Hub drive has one top speed and fixed torque that needs to cover all bases.
@@onamission1848 The weight distribution is better on a mid drive too, only thing is I go through chains like crazy since I'm doing 70 miles a day on my bafang
DD gearless all the way. It may be heavier, it may have a slower acceleration and it may be PITA changing a tyre but once it gets going, you can get into comfortable speeds. You don't have to worry about gearing, upkeep is easier and if you really need more torque when climbing, you can just help it out by cranking those legs of yours. I highly recommend getting a 50T+ chainring on the cranks. Climbing Hills becomes a joy as both man and machine😁
I like the mid drive on the Bolton. The belt drive with no rear derailleur appears to have less maintenance. I got to have this bike. Excellent video. Thanks
My answer to the “mid/hub” question is simply both. The hills I ride have developed my bike with a 72v Bafang mid drive and a Qs205 hub motor 72v 150amp on 29” wheels. Two 72v 25ah triangular batteries provide power. I know I’m crazy but try it! Heat and range anxiety problems disappeared .
That must be heavy, but you have a lot of torque and redundancy? That sounds way cool. So that should also reduce draw from each battery and extend your range? How is shifting? I've never ridden an ebike, but I am very interested, and if I had one, I'd need to go up steep mountain ridges with my milk and such, pull a cart with my dog on rare occasion, and be dependable to at least provide some drive to get me back without breaking me with a long walk pushing shit up ridges, making me pig target.
The video explained many differences between the 2 types of motors but missed some important issues. Most hub motors have a stepped cog to shift gears. I never rode a bike with this gear system long before chain would jump gears under load and need adjusting which is a pain. I added a Bafang mid drive on the fat tire bikes my wife and I ride which has a Sturmy 3 speed rear hub. This 3 speed hub shifts flawlessly and when needed, is so simple to adjust. We have a thumb throttle which we always use as we start out from a stop. Any bike is hard to balance until it gets moving. We never peddle to get moving, just push down on throttle and get instant acceleration and control. Also a problem with hub motors is the torque from motor is transferred to the rim through the spokes. These can become loose and need adjusting which again is not fun. Another bike shop video stated that hub drive motors are like running your car in 3rd gear all the time, even from a dead stop. We have been riding our mid drive converted bikes for years on the beaches in Florida with no maintenance needed to this point which has sold me on the mid drive motors. We get the low end torque when starting out and all the speed we need after that.
Great video, in my experience hub motors are just set it and forget it, but if you want more torque the mid drive will always be the winner. I run a dual hub motor system that is just great for commuting through Arizona. If I were doing mountains. I would use a mid drive, But also carry an extra chain. Thanks again for the video
Great point about ripping the chain of a Mid-drive if on the wrong gear. For me, the benefit of the Hub Motor is that if your chain breaks 10 miles from home, etc. you can always make it home ( if your battery has enough juice). I see the Mid-drive as a bike to advance/graduate to given enough riding/shifting experience. That's right, "Two chickens in every pot and two e-bikes in every garage!":)
Hi Eric, I have been watching your vids lately and really enjoyed your phoenix to Vegas ride. I live in Mesa. I also saw your bike in that trip was a mid drive and it peaked my interest in the mid drive. Thanks for the vids.
Great video,I've been riding derrailer bikes for over 50 yrs and still see people riding without using the gears.If you ride in the hills it's the gears that enable us to gain momemtum.I have a few ebikes on order but I selected hub over mid drive purely on economics.Keep up the great video's.
Hub motor all the way for me, so much more reliable and easy/relaxed to ride! And a longer range! Oh yeah its cheaper too! And if the chain snaps you can still ride it home fully electric!
Nicely broken down, and I was NOT expecting a hub motor to weigh less! Mids give more control, but motors have a wide range of RPM *if* the controller handles the stator coil pulse timing properly. But, most don't, and you lose efficiency as RPM climbs. I had an upgrade kit on my RadMini 4 (not yours), and the pulse timing was too long, actually hurting speed because the coils were still energized after the magnet passed the optimum point. Kind of like a relay runner passing the baton, and not letting go on time. Mid drives can be tough on the chain and cassette, so belt drive and internal gears would help that. If you need redundancy though, hub is the way to go. I had a situation last week: A water main broke and began flooding the small valley where I was riding. With the only way out turning into a river, I cut through an opening in the fence to escape into a parking lot, and a curbstone hit the jockey and idler pulley cage, bending it. Not wanting to damage it further in the dark, I rode two miles home on throttle only.
It doesn't. the hub motor's weight is not static, it's rotational. I'd advise watching johnnynerdout's video comparison of both style ebikes. His view is from a consumers standpoint and not an ebike retailer. Imho price vs quality for hub motors is greatly overvalued.
Impressively done, detailed comparison. But to be fair, to Mid-drives. You needed mention Hub Motors increase the wheel's 'moment-of-inertia' (ie making it harder to rotate), which commonly, more than offset any weight advantage.
As a few others have mentioned, mid-drive is generally easier to remove rear wheel for fixing flats, or other maintenence, its the same process as with non ebikes. On my Bosch mid drive bike, which came as a fat bike, I have 2 sets or wheels; the original 26x4" for dirt, sand, snow and 27.5x3" for commuting. I also use a slightly lower geared casset(larger cogs) on the fat wheels for better off road performance. I could also run 29x2.5" wheels if I wanted. It is very simple process to change the wheels on the mid drive. Note: not all frames will accept all the wheel sizes I mentioned. For instance, 26x4" wheels will likely not fit on a frame designed for 27.5 or 29x2.5" wheels.
Already ordered a spare chain and tool just in case for when I get my Foxbat. That way if I have too much “need for speed” I can get operational again on the road. I’m a big guy and will be working the chain fairly hard.
Another advantage of mid drives: wider range of wheel choices. Note also that vast majority of hub motors require wire spoke rims (vs 'mag' style rims). Quality wire spoke rims are more expensive and require regular maintenance however they also are lighter and can absorb some of the 'road shock'. Mag style rim can be nearly indestructible and require no regular maintenance (other than the occasional cleaning).
Don't forget the weight distribution and bike handling. Midrives center that extra weight near the midpoint of the bike. Hub drives make the back wheel quite a bit heavier.
That belt drive is cool with no derailer- A hub motor is like driving a car with an automatic transmission and a mid drive is kinda like driving a car with a manual transmission.
When mid drive with belt drive and internal hib gears comes at similar price as hub drive I'd go mid drive. For now my 1000w cheap hub drive is working great for me with nothing to wear out or break ( chain etc).
You explained it very well. As an owner of both types of motors I could add a few more things: changing a flat on the hub drive has been a huge pain, because the wiring that comes out of the motor is very exposed when the wheel is off plus the weight of the motor makes it hard to work with. Also, the hub drive motor shifts most of the weight to the back which creates unbalance which affects handling. It also makes for a rough ride if it's a hardtail.
Also, the hub motor is harder on the spokes. On my rear hub motored bike, I broke 3 spokes in one summer. Big pain to replace: you have remove the wheel, tire, and tire liner to switch spokes. My next bike will be mid drive.
Ding yes balance is key in handling also JMO it will be easier for someone with a motorcycle background to ride a mid-hub bike as it is in many ways just like a motorcycle you need to change gears for terrain and conditions powered through drive train ETC I/m doing research now and I think something like the drill one is going to be the best option for me as will be installing lights ETC to make it street legal and ride it to work round trip is doable with distance and battery IE fuel consumption
Stay awake and alert while riding, the mid drive is the king. It you tend to be Lazy riding and not paying attention, the hub motor will work best for you. Rodney
Last year I converted my catrike to e-assist, hub motor, you mentioned that on the mid-drive that you could tear up the chain. That was one of the deciding factors for me in that if I break a chain while riding I really don’t have to stop and fix it, I can still pedal or use the throttle and get home, the motor will work without the chain. Also, because of the position of the crank on a trike, I didn’t want the extra weight on the front of the trike.
Mid drive. Climbing and speed. Simple. And, true class 1 if you travel and want the most accessible bike to federal and state park land. I live out west, and so far my Specialized (mid drive pedal assist) has passed muster.
Well done video. I've rented mid-drives and own two geared hubs, and really the hub is much smoother in easing the power on and off. The mid-drives can be a bit clunky. Also if your pants leg gets into the teeth and chain of a hub motor style bike, you just stop pedaling and pedal backwards a bit to free your self. I would hate to know what happens when a powered chain grabs your pants and you aren't even pedaling! One thing with a mid-drive though is that it is easier to remove the rear wheel when you get a flat. On a hub bike its a real pain until you learn all the tricks and details involved in wheel removal..
@@emma70707 I go with bafang mid drive because they mean I get an ebike for a fraction of the price of a factory made Bosch. I would rather have a Bosch but I can't bring myself to shed out thousands on a bicycle that in all honesty has a battery that will deplete in usage life after 1 year. But yea Bosch is so much better. Just about to go out on my clunky bafang lol
@@davefool6815 I get the price difference. It really is a lot. But Bosch systems feel a lot cleaner to ride (and they have legit locks instead of the junk on cheap batteries that you can pick with a bobby pin). I will say that my battery is fine after using my Haibike as my daily driver (4 mi hilly commute in Seattle 5-6X/week on full assist so I can go 25 mph in 25 mph traffic) for two and a half years. No, a charge doesn't last quite as long, but it's at 2X commutes instead of 2.5X so it's not like it's a huge issue. I bought one of the small chargers to keep at work and just charge after 1.5X commutes now to be safe. If I hadn't needed to switch to a bike with a throttle due to my deteriorating knee issues, I'm sure I wouldn't have replaced the battery for at least another year.
@@emma70707 yeah the locks are crap. That's why I never leave it haha. I would rather have a Bosch. I'm in UK so we are restricted to 250w motor and 15.5mph. That's probably another reason why I got a bafang as you can take the speed limiter off. Cold shi t weather here doesn't help cells. And I feel you sister... knee problems. Torn my acl years ago... gives me grief. At least we still soldier on hey lol
Wow great video. A lot of good knowledge being shared. IMO the mid drive is the stuff. Rides more like a non powered bike, plus the additional performance can never be overlooked. That being said , I turned up the boost on my controller today And had 9 available. I’m shopping for a new chain as I watched your video. 😂
That show and tell was very well contrasted and defined! You touched on a demonstrated by you two builds that putting a high torque mid drive system on pretty much any chain and derailure will expose that to a potential beyond its Design and Engineering. Internal geared hub and belt drive was itself a testimony to your setting of an optimum example for mid drive builds. Obviously that optimum mid drive will have a much higher cost to build... (Always?) Please continue with great content. Going now to check out your products and other content. Cheers
Another thing to consider is the the hub motor needs a controller box so less clean unless custom like the bikes in this video. Mid Drives have the controller built into it's shell.
I've been researching this very topic and this video finally gave me the answers I was looking for. With that said, I still am not sure which drive is right for me. I like the torque of the mid drive, but I do not like the thought of busting a chain when I'm miles from a road.
Get ebike specific chain and don't abuse it, everything will be fine. I recently got a BBS02B and detuned because it was far too much power for my needs. I carry a multitool and chain breaker with quick link just in case but never had to use it, for myself at least, once helped a person on a normal bike with a broken chain on the side of the road
The last bike I've build up I was using 350w 36v MXUS hub motor, it top at 47kph. Torque is high in fact. I didn't install the pedal assist only throttle lol! Few times it nearly wheelie up as I forgot how strong the pick up was.
Now i know what should i get soon.. Mid drive motor is more efficient and better weight distribution combined with internal gear rear hubs you just have to keep in mind to be careful when shifting gears. Great video helps alot👌🏼
For getting from A to B, high powered hubs are still king been that way since 2014, cause once you set it up the lack of maintenance as well as its reliability is unbeatable compared even to eskates and EUCs the robustness of components as well as the ability to use an ant bms (best thing since sliced bread when it comes to ebikes) and the suspension make it hands down the best option in most cases. However it still depends on the use case as bikes are bling and love to be stolen. If you have the skills and the money mid drive stunt rigs can be very fun but again they are not as value for money as hubs and require A LOT of maintenance as chains and cogs need to be adjusted perfectly or risk failure and down time.
Hubs drive are crap, so many probs, the main one is loosening spokes which in turn mean callaosed rims and having to put huge torque bars on the frame to compensate, hubs are. Just terrible, I had hubs and mids and middrive. Knock the hubs out of sight
@@neilcopeland4411 I am also moving away from hubs, the inn runner motor have moved past their hub motor counterparts on account of everyone coping the Tesla rotor design, how ever this is only true for larger motors, for small motors such as the ones used on electric skateboards hub motors still dominated as they benefit from the higher pole pairs numbers compared to their equally sized counterparts.
I have both and I can confirm that hub drive bike owners are just salty about getting left in the dust by mid drive bike owners. Oh, and not earning enough to buy a mid drive motor lol
@@thisone3519 they both have their merits, hubs can work if you know how to loosen and tighten spokes to the point of trueing a wheel, in which case they are more reliable then the mid drive pedal bikes, it’s all very early days for evs at the moment even Sur Ron’s need modifications to make them work well. The best ebike is still the one you build your self.
watched a lot of bike videos and experts doing videos on EV Bikes etc, But you Sir are with out a doubt the BEST !!! Find you very pleasant to watch and listen too, keep up the EXCELLENT work you do !!! your a breath of fresh air !!!
For what I do I think the hub motor will probably be better for me I do a lot of flatline riding and maybe a little racing sometimes and the hub motor works good for my purposes I love it your video has helped me out in some ways I did not know using the gears would help the motor as you said in your video it doesn't really do anything to the hub motor at all and I didn't know that thank you for the information and the hub motor is my choice
Dont forget that for ease of wheel removing a mid drive is preferable over a hub drive especially for someone like me who has back and knee problems, i just wish we could get these bikes in the UK as i love your range.
Thinking out loud... I'm 66. I have not been riding my mountain bike. It's safe to say, I'm looking to start improving my health. I'm thinking Hub mount. I like the idea of using my gears and getting some "back up" from the motor while riding. I'd like to eventually ride from home to work, a distance of 13 miles one way. When I used my map feature on my phone, the amount of time would be about an hour. That time is a little slow and if I could reduce the amount of time, I would be more inclined to ride my bike when the weather permits. I'm open to suggestions.
I can tell all of you waiting on the MD1000, you are going to love it. They are awesome. Yes I have one in my garage. I special ordered it before Kyle offered it and got lucky it was sent on an earlier shipment. I can tell you, your getting your Bikes as quick as possible!! I am 6’3 280. I had to get the adjustable riser to raise my handle bars way up as the factory one was way to low for my bad back. Second I added a much bigger seat. The seat it comes with is a good seat but too small for my fat a$$. Third I added ergonomic hand grips and they made a MASSIVE difference. Greatly increased comfort and reduced wrist pain. Do yourself a favor now and order you a shock air pump so you have it when your bike arrives. The bike is a beast. It’s easy to ride but not so easy to get on and off. It flat goes!!! Well worth the wait, I promise. I freaking love mine!!
Personally, I prefer the rear hub motor. It has lots of starting torque, it doesn't put a strain on the Chain, just fewer moving parts. And with a MAG rear tire you don't have to mess with all that spoke junk. It goes faster than I can run and that's all I need
@@kenbrown9781 Just one. The fact this guy says that a hub motor has 'lots of starting torque', in itself proves he has no idea what he's talking about. The biggest flaw of hub (especially direct-drive hub) motors, IS their lack of starting low-end torque. That's why mid-drive is essential for any serious hillclimbing. You need that low-end torque, and your bike's gearing, which hub motors cannot use.
I already own 3 hub motor bikes but want to experience a mid-drive so I ordered a Foxbat arriving in November. I live in a really hilly area and thought the mid-drive would be a better bike but I guess the real answer was "maybe" lol. Thanks Kyle - I continue to learn with each of these videos!
You forgot to mention that hub motors tends to heat more specially climbing. Also people report that hub motor slows down the speed of bike when not used.
To me, this sounds just like the manual vs automatic transmission argument in automobiles. It seems to come down to personal preference. Very informative. Subscribed.
I'd like the same but with full suspension too (and no fat tires).....seen a few "almost" candidates but nothing reasonably priced......The Frey commuter comes close though.
Hub motor is lighter and it includes the back hub, true. But e.g. Bafang BBSHD & Ultra has the controller integrated, hub motor probably doesn't. And the mid drive includes the "bottom bracket". This is not to say they are same, the mid-drive bike still can be heavier though. For me hub motor was especially fine when I came to sudden stop, and start with a hard gear (by turning the throttle). Other than this, I personally think mid-drive is a bit more enjoyable as long as you use gears properly.
Hey!! Unless I missed it you didn't mention one of the big reasons I chose hub motor. I'm going to be ebike touring the mountain trails of Pa. At first I had thought mid for all of the reasons that you gave. Til my newb self learned that if you should break a chain with a hub motor model you can still continue to ride under power...with throttle only. Between being potentially far from a town and being handicapped I really need the bike to be bomb proof as possible!! Love the new bikes!! Mebbe if Congress ups the stim check to 2grand.......!!!!!!
That's one of the great things about mid drives, it's possible for them to have multiple gear ratios. The mid-drive also generally weighs less for given motor power.
Hi, I’m thinking in getting myself a CSC hub kit too, the 1500 watt one. Which power one do you have? And what is the top speed that you can get with it? I would love to know
@@abelramos1862 Hello Abel, I went for the 1500 watt hub and it's working well. I use a 48 volt 20 Ah battery and can easily top out around 28-30 mph. Not bad for a 190lb rider!
That regen statement... I use an 80lb scooter "e bike like thing" with twin 1400w hubs and its regen is amazing! If im on full regen on a steep downhill it puts so much power back into my pack i worry it might hurt the pack lol.
Have you ever heard the difference between a mid-drive motor running 50 mph versus a hub motor at the same speed? The mid drive-motor is noisy and another thing, the hub motor will out accelerate a mid-drive motor. Another thing, what happens if you break a belt drive on a mid-drive motor or even a chain drive mid-drive motor? The mid-drive systems look great until you evaluate problems that can happen with them and that is why all electric motor driven systems are more reliable than using a motor to couple a belt or chain to drive the rear wheel. I'd go with the hub drive system for reliability.
Thank you for your opinion. I have ridden ten speeds all my life, but not so much in the last twenty years. I chose a hub drive based on your word. I find it intuitive to control through all my rides. I live in an urban environment.
Mid drive if you want a motor assisted pedal bike or you have big hills. Hub drive if you want a pedal assisted motor bike. For most people not used to riding bikes, with a mid drive its better to increase the acceleration time so there's much less stress on the drive train if someone starts off in too high a gear (when possible).
So much great info! I think I had a lot of this figured out on my own but was just guessing so it was great to hear it explained so well to fill in the gaps and confirm/correct my assumptions. Thanks for posting!
I am used to a 21 speed comfort bike, my daily driver is a 6 speed motorcycle, and live in a very hilly area. Sounds like Mid Motor for me as I check both the 'shifting is natural for me' and need torque to get up the hills and want to pick up the pace downhill and on the flats.
Informative video. Lots of videos on this topic, most obsess with speed as the best measure of performance. A rear hub drive same power will not climb the same sustained steep grade as mid drive in granny gear. They both have limits, but unless there is a hub drive geared very low out there, mid drive always wins in mountains. A lot of the "steep grades" demos on YT are moderate grade and short length. So unless you weigh 80 lbs...
one thing that no one ever talks about when it comes to mid vs hub drives is cost. specifically maintenance cost over time. i own and regularly use both mid and hub drive bikes, and i can tell you, hub drive are WAY cheaper then mid drives to operate. like 10-20x cheaper. mid drives wear out sprockets, both front and rear, chain, and even tries. even something as simple as bearings wear out faster too. this is exactly why i commute with a hub drive, and off road with a mid drive.
Don't forget weight balance. A hub drive is biased towards the rear wheel, whereas a mid drive is more balanced. When you handle the two types of bike, you can immediately feel the difference. Now this may or may not impact you day to day, depending on how and where you ride. But personally, having ridden both types, I much prefer the mid drive.
I have a Terratrike Rambler, and I am shopping for an ebike upgrade. So far the lead candidates are the Bosch mid drive, mostly because it's what Terratrike sells so I can get support in one place, and one of the higher power Falco hub motors. The claims about the Falco technology are attractive. When I push the pedal down and feel a surge of motion I find it motivating, and conversely when I have a headwind or need air in my tires, I find struggling to move demotivating. This is why I am most interested in the torque sensing, but I like the idea of having a range of options, including torque sensing and a throttle, which Falco seems to offer. I live and ride in Chicago, on road, which is very flat. I like the idea of a power assist. The idea of a 750W motor is attractive, but I don't know if I'll really use it. I imagine I could hack whatever I get so I can go faster on the streets of Chicago. I have no idea how aware Chicago police are of ebike laws. They tend to focus in other directions. When you talk about snapping chains, I get very leery. I care a lot about reliability. I can't put my Terratrike in someone's trunk or on a bus if I get in a jam far from home like I can an ordinary two wheeler. I don't think that the Bosch Terratrike sells would be able to do that, but other mid drives might. As essentially an engineer, I do find the simplicity of a hub motor appealing. Simple designs are more reliable designs. So I'm leaning towards a hub motor.
I have a terratrike rambler all terrain. Very happy with the hub motor. It is nice to have both options for pedal assist and throttle assist. Given the extra long length of chain on trikes, I was concerned that a mid-drive motor would generate too much stress on the chain. Don’t underestimate the safety factor provided by throttle assist. It is helpful for start ups from dead stops and can also provide quick bursts of speed to avoid potential sudden hazards.
Very helpful clarification. I'm not looking for fast but ride on steep and sometimes rough logging roads hunting so hope to carry some weight back to the truck. So distance ( multiple trips, multiple days between charges ) and carrying capacity are high on my list while not able to afford the $4-5K that are 'hunting bikes'.
You covered pretty much everything except cost difference. IME it is SUBSTANTIAL....the mid drive motor is typically quite a bit more expensive....and the in-hub transmission is way up there in price difference (initial cost AND repair or replace). I ran into a guy the other day with the top of the line Reese and Mueller, titanium frame, dual batteries and everything else....it was 15k! It's nice to dream but...
either really works great just love e-biking... I lean towards the raw power and versatility of the mid-drives if there is one bike I absolutely love is your Bikonit Warthog MD1000 with it's mid drive and double battery set up.. I mainly ride my ebike off road on old trails as I am disabled and can't ride dirt bikes, quads or anything like that any more but still love to be in the woods enjoying nature and ebikes absolutely made that possible.... hope one day to be able to afford to upgrade and buy a Warthog MD1000.... thanks for all the great advise, awesome products, reviews and content... I always look forward to you newest videos and podcasts....
The torque sensor measures torque (the amount of pressure being exerted) not the "turning of the pedals" as a cadence sensor does. Sounds like if you already ride an analog bike the only real advantage of a hub motor is if you're riding downhill at full speed. The lesser weight of the hub is countered by the weight being unsprung in the back wheel as opposed to the middle of the bike with a mid-drive.
One aspect I've found with my rear hub motor is the amount of stress placed on the rear wheel as I hit bumps and potholes while riding through the city. I have to check and tighten spokes on the rear before every ride. I suspect that this wouldn't be the case with a mid-drive motor. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You mentioned the weight differences between the motors, and while the hub motor weighs less it would increase the weight of the stock hub. That increase in rotating mass really hurts handling way beyond what a small weight increase might seem. So, what is the increase in wheel weight for the hub drive? Also, what is the net change (increase probably) from the stock hub to the internally geared hub on the mid drive? My guess is that no one would notice a couple of pounds from a mid drive, but most would really notice 1 or two pounds more weight in rotating mass.
On the mid drive Warthog, could the rear hub be upgraded to say a Shimano Nexus 7 or 8? How about the Uber expensive Rohloff hub. Would they handle the torque of the Ultra mid drive? 🤔
I use an ebike for my daily commute to work. Its a low wind Mac500 hub motor, 45 amp controller, with lifepo4 batteries on an old steal frame bike that cost about $1200 all up. Even though it isn't as efficient as a mid drive when I am cruising up 15 degree hills at 25 kmh. In reality that inefficiency is only costing me a cent or two more in electricity costs a day. Which really doesn't mean much when you compare it against the purchase price of some mid drives ($5000+), not to mention aditional running costs that mid drives incur (increased drive train maintenance). I feel that we will likely see some more multi-gear hub motors in the future. Along the lines of xiongda 2 speed hub but with 5 or more gears. That will make mid-drives impracticable.
Mid drives sometimes you don't even know it's an E bike. So they can be less noticed and draw less attention. Where as everyone can see that rear wheel on the hub drive is different .
I like HUB drive for my e-mtb that I use for hunting so my chain is not stressed with a heavy load. A broken chain in the back country with a load of deer or elk meat is NOT a good day. (My E-CELLS bike has TWO hub motors thus 2 wheel drive, 2 52 volt 750 watt batteries, dual suspension. -> Hub drive ASSISTED by torque from your pedaling through a chain sill certainly help the hub motor, especially with the torque sensor as I have on my bike.
Hub motors are nice to eliminate the dependency on the chain for motive power, but large hub motors mean large unsprung weight which gets very unpleasant very quickly on rough ground. Your bikes are getting closer to what I'd like... I'm watching for an electric replacement for the Honda Trail 90/110 and now the new Trail 125 (aka Hunter Cub). That means a utility bike somewhere in the 8-10 horsepower range (6-8KW), road legal with a top speed in the 45 to 60 mph range, and easily capable of traversing moderate off road trails (e.g. unmaintained forest service "roads"). The Ubco 2x2 is close but needs probably at least 4x the power. sur-on / segway also close and can have the power boosted, but is not road legal and too lightweight for much utility use (e.g. two-up adults, or similar loading) and the brakes are marginal at best. $5000 (like the new Honda) to $10000 (like the KTM freeride) is an upper limit on the price. I'll keep watching! :)
Honda used a gear drive motorcycle in the 80’s. I think it was a 100 four stroke dirt bike. It was great, low maintenance, not sure if it had more drive train power loss then a chain.
Very happy with my 750 watt hub motor drive after 2 1/2 years, and 2,600 miles. Mine is 52 volt, and will easily go 80 plus miles on a charge from the 19.2 amp/hr battery.
Just got mine and on the first day have my pedal assist at 3--i keep my gears in either 4 to 6 depending on how much effort i wnt to put.I did 25 miles in 2 days and only 1 bar of power was used. I did anothe 7 today and it still had only used one bar--so 32 miles on 1 bar with very light peddling and a mix of flat terrain--offroad--city park and long distance flat--it was perfect--I have a 48v 14 ah battery and was worried about range--but since I find it enjoyable to lightly pedal--i am sure i can also get the 50 to 60 mile range--i do not think my ass right now could take any more then about an hour of riding--i will try to go further once my padded underwear comes in--lol.
One thing I didn't see covered, and I would like to know more about, is pedal effort. To achieve the best top speed on a mid-drive, does it require higher pedaling effort? I'm over 65, and my legs are not as strong as they once were.
Nice video man. I have the hub motor because I literally bought the cheapest ebike I could afford. Never tried a mid motor before. Happy with what I have.
I will stick to hub. I am on my third day of riding my new ebike and today my shoe got untied and the lace went into the sprocket and luckily I felt it on the first turn of the pedal and stopped and just smoothly and freely backpedaled and loosened it--if I had a mid drive--who knows what would have happened--a wreck--my shoe pulled off or broken foot--or lace being ripped and getting tangled in the gears. And I tighten my laces before i ride so this could happen to anyone so beware.Also if the chain breaks--and mid drive puts a lot on the chain--especially if you are in the wrong gear--then you have a possible long walk home with a 60 to 100 plus lb bike--chain breaks ona hub--you dispose or remove it and use it as an electric moped to go home.BTW I have climbed some steep hills with my new CSC 20 inch on pedal assist 3 and had no problems--yes i pedal--but it is just a little efforat--but the throttle has enough power to also do it--your mph will get to 10 to 12 mph--but that is pretty fast going up a decently steep hill.BTW in pedal assist 3--which is literally very light peddling--I did 25 miles in 2 days and it barely used one bar of power--i figure i can get the 50 to 60 mile range by lightly peddling.I also kppe my gears in 4 to 6th gear and it is perfect at level 3 to stay at about 14 mph steady on all diffrent terrain-including going offroad where i actually was going so brskly i had to lightly brake.You get a 750 hub motor and it should be fine--I even went on thick grass and into a drainage rut next to the road with no problem at all.
Mid drive is way more efficient. Especially if it has 11 speeds or more. But it can only be up to about 2000 watts before you start breaking drivetrains and I don't care if its an external cassette or internal Roloff etc. You will bust that stuff its from the analog bike world
Which is best for you and where you ride? The Mid-drive OR The Hub Motor?
Where I live and ride they both perform well on the trails and on the pavement I have a hub and middrive ebike the hub is way easier to ride at a constant 32km/h well pedaling with the hub motor I can go for hours well pedaling but on my middrive with the tourqe sensor when you get tired and let off so does the motor so it definitely harder to maintain a constant speed but my mid drive can climb a mountain and bring me to 50+km/h I reached 65km/h downhill
No back suspension you need that for sure I know
When are they going to make a geared hub motor that will fit in a cast or carbon fiber (preferably) rear fat tire rim? I would love to see that for a 26” X 4“ wide rim! If anybody knows of one especially if it’s a Grin Technologies or Bafang 750 Watt or more, please let me know ASAP! Thank you
@@racerx2095 my middrive is a full suspension it's the biktrix juggernaut ultra fs
My mid drive Dost Kope is inbound. Delivery in about 2 weeks. Stoked!
Mid Drive all the way for me, another plus to the Mid Drive is the weight of the motor is central on the bike, greatly changing how the bike feels on the road.
U got it man
Two years later....I'm thinking about E, thank you UA-cam for an overload of information. I'm 61, used to be a bike messenger in ancient history. I can still ride 50miles a day, but hills are taking me out! I ride the street with occasional urban off-road. I've decided on mid drive, I don't need speed, I need Hill Help. The torque sensor with no or low latency, not cadence. Good video!
Ive ran a bafang 750w fatbike hub at 2000w peak on my DH bike for years and its has many advantages, constant power regardless of gear, no chain wear and the ability to hit climbs at speed then keep powering as the speed drops.
It works very well on fast single track and no clearance issues at the bb.
Good to hear 750w bafang 26 inch tire hub motor coming soon 😩
I found the answer to the question of which motor is best. Simply put BOTH! On the other end of the chain from my Bafang sets a QS 205 hub motor. They are fed by two 72v 25ah triangular batteries. Using both at once turns bad hills in my area into jump ramps and problems with heat have completely disappeared even at highway speeds. Plus I am hard to beat across an intersection! The primary is a 52 tooth and the final is a 11 tooth. The hub keeps the Bafang from over heating at low speed and the mid drive acts as an afterburner for the hub. (I used to build the F15 fighter bomber)
dang...!
Another thing to mention would be the cost difference between the two. Part of the reason I went with a hub motor was it seemed a little less expensive.
Can’t wait to get my ebike.
Here's a tip for u and something I don't think he mentioned. If one is going mid-drive, they should find out if the bike has an accelerator so you don't have to pedal. I have the Sondors MXS hub drive and wouldn't want to be without mine. First advantage is that it helps me get on the bike re getting it moving while I'm just standing on a pedal before swinging my leg around. Great at stoplights to get it going.. 2nd is immediate power to race a stoplight, have more advantage in traffic etc.
@@deanrivers6200 my mid drive has a throttle and also the advantage of being able to use the gears to either increase torque for better hill climbing or increase speed for faster driving. Hub drive has one top speed and fixed torque that needs to cover all bases.
@@onamission1848 The weight distribution is better on a mid drive too, only thing is I go through chains like crazy since I'm doing 70 miles a day on my bafang
@@smallhatshatethetruth7933 why do you chains break? Or do they just wear out? And which Bafang mid-drive do you have?
@@smallhatshatethetruth7933 Haha! Thanks for that. Your'e obviously having a blast! Just be careful okay!
DD gearless all the way. It may be heavier, it may have a slower acceleration and it may be PITA changing a tyre but once it gets going, you can get into comfortable speeds. You don't have to worry about gearing, upkeep is easier and if you really need more torque when climbing, you can just help it out by cranking those legs of yours. I highly recommend getting a 50T+ chainring on the cranks. Climbing Hills becomes a joy as both man and machine😁
Also don't have to constantly listen to whirring gears. Silence is bliss!
Amen. One of the dumbest things Rad did was move from DD to geared - especially on the Radcity, which was a perfect direct drive application.
I like the mid drive on the Bolton. The belt drive with no rear derailleur appears to have less maintenance. I got to have this bike. Excellent video. Thanks
I have almost 4000 miles on my mid-drive ebike. I think my next bike will also be mid/fat tire. Thanks Kyle. Looking forward to meeting you in GV
My answer to the “mid/hub” question is simply both. The hills I ride have developed my bike with a 72v Bafang mid drive and a Qs205 hub motor 72v 150amp on 29” wheels. Two 72v 25ah triangular batteries provide power. I know I’m crazy but try it! Heat and range anxiety problems disappeared .
You're a SAVAGE
Dude, this video was about ebikes, not electric motorcycles.
@@camcammy4753 that is a ebike you just need to know what you’re putting on it you can this throw it on and expect it to work
That must be heavy, but you have a lot of torque and redundancy? That sounds way cool. So that should also reduce draw from each battery and extend your range? How is shifting? I've never ridden an ebike, but I am very interested, and if I had one, I'd need to go up steep mountain ridges with my milk and such, pull a cart with my dog on rare occasion, and be dependable to at least provide some drive to get me back without breaking me with a long walk pushing shit up ridges, making me pig target.
Must weigh about 100lbs....
Great explanation of the difference between both motors, very complete details. I drive a Stromer with an 800W hub motor and love it.
The video explained many differences between the 2 types of motors but missed some important issues. Most hub motors have a stepped cog to shift gears. I never rode a bike with this gear system long before chain would jump gears under load and need adjusting which is a pain. I added a Bafang mid drive on the fat tire bikes my wife and I ride which has a Sturmy 3 speed rear hub. This 3 speed hub shifts flawlessly and when needed, is so simple to adjust. We have a thumb throttle which we always use as we start out from a stop. Any bike is hard to balance until it gets moving. We never peddle to get moving, just push down on throttle and get instant acceleration and control. Also a problem with hub motors is the torque from motor is transferred to the rim through the spokes. These can become loose and need adjusting which again is not fun. Another bike shop video stated that hub drive motors are like running your car in 3rd gear all the time, even from a dead stop. We have been riding our mid drive converted bikes for years on the beaches in Florida with no maintenance needed to this point which has sold me on the mid drive motors. We get the low end torque when starting out and all the speed we need after that.
Great video, in my experience hub motors are just set it and forget it, but if you want more torque the mid drive will always be the winner. I run a dual hub motor system that is just great for commuting through Arizona. If I were doing mountains. I would use a mid drive, But also carry an extra chain. Thanks again for the video
Great point about ripping the chain of a Mid-drive if on the wrong gear. For me, the benefit of the Hub Motor is that if your chain breaks 10 miles from home, etc. you can always make it home ( if your battery has enough juice). I see the Mid-drive as a bike to advance/graduate to given enough riding/shifting experience. That's right, "Two chickens in every pot and two e-bikes in every garage!":)
Rear hub make changing a flat a real pain. Takes me over an hour to fix a flat on it. You can see this in my latest solar ebike tour videos.
Hi Eric, I have been watching your vids lately and really enjoyed your phoenix to Vegas ride. I live in Mesa. I also saw your bike in that trip was a mid drive and it peaked my interest in the mid drive. Thanks for the vids.
@@GVPARTS Nice
Good video! Regen brakes are great for reduced wear on brakes and hub motor gets the nod, if your chain brakes you can still get home.
Truly appreciate your videos. You are always non-biased and speak to inform.
Great video,I've been riding derrailer bikes for over 50 yrs and still see people riding without using the gears.If you ride in the hills it's the gears that enable us to gain momemtum.I have a few ebikes on order but I selected hub over mid drive purely on economics.Keep up the great video's.
You forgot the "get home" factor. The pedals & chain are not required with the hub drive.
Yeah if you get a problem with your chain or gears then you can still throttle home
I have a mid drive motor and still have a throttle. FLX Gladiator 2.0
Can you still get to your destination if you break a chain?
@@norangeito on a hub yeah.
@@norangeitoif you got a throttle, sure.
Hub motor all the way for me, so much more reliable and easy/relaxed to ride! And a longer range! Oh yeah its cheaper too! And if the chain snaps you can still ride it home fully electric!
Nicely broken down, and I was NOT expecting a hub motor to weigh less! Mids give more control, but motors have a wide range of RPM *if* the controller handles the stator coil pulse timing properly. But, most don't, and you lose efficiency as RPM climbs. I had an upgrade kit on my RadMini 4 (not yours), and the pulse timing was too long, actually hurting speed because the coils were still energized after the magnet passed the optimum point. Kind of like a relay runner passing the baton, and not letting go on time.
Mid drives can be tough on the chain and cassette, so belt drive and internal gears would help that.
If you need redundancy though, hub is the way to go. I had a situation last week: A water main broke and began flooding the small valley where I was riding. With the only way out turning into a river, I cut through an opening in the fence to escape into a parking lot, and a curbstone hit the jockey and idler pulley cage, bending it. Not wanting to damage it further in the dark, I rode two miles home on throttle only.
It doesn't. the hub motor's weight is not static, it's rotational. I'd advise watching johnnynerdout's video comparison of both style ebikes. His view is from a consumers standpoint and not an ebike retailer. Imho price vs quality for hub motors is greatly overvalued.
Impressively done, detailed comparison. But to be fair, to Mid-drives. You needed mention Hub Motors increase the wheel's 'moment-of-inertia' (ie making it harder to rotate), which commonly, more than offset any weight advantage.
As a few others have mentioned, mid-drive is generally easier to remove rear wheel for fixing flats, or other maintenence, its the same process as with non ebikes. On my Bosch mid drive bike, which came as a fat bike, I have 2 sets or wheels; the original 26x4" for dirt, sand, snow and 27.5x3" for commuting. I also use a slightly lower geared casset(larger cogs) on the fat wheels for better off road performance. I could also run 29x2.5" wheels if I wanted. It is very simple process to change the wheels on the mid drive. Note: not all frames will accept all the wheel sizes I mentioned. For instance, 26x4" wheels will likely not fit on a frame designed for 27.5 or 29x2.5" wheels.
Already ordered a spare chain and tool just in case for when I get my Foxbat. That way if I have too much “need for speed” I can get operational again on the road. I’m a big guy and will be working the chain fairly hard.
Another advantage of mid drives: wider range of wheel choices.
Note also that vast majority of hub motors require wire spoke rims (vs 'mag' style rims).
Quality wire spoke rims are more expensive and require regular maintenance however they also are lighter and can absorb some of the 'road shock'. Mag style rim can be nearly indestructible and require no regular maintenance (other than the occasional cleaning).
Don't forget the weight distribution and bike handling. Midrives center that extra weight near the midpoint of the bike. Hub drives make the back wheel quite a bit heavier.
That belt drive is cool with no derailer- A hub motor is like driving a car with an automatic transmission and a mid drive is kinda like driving a car with a manual transmission.
Very informative, when the prices come down, I will seriously consider a mid-drive with a belt. Thanks Kyle!
Thank you for watching Mythrus!
@@Area13ebikes will prices eventually come down ?
When mid drive with belt drive and internal hib gears comes at similar price as hub drive I'd go mid drive.
For now my 1000w cheap hub drive is working great for me with nothing to wear out or break ( chain etc).
You explained it very well. As an owner of both types of motors I could add a few more things: changing a flat on the hub drive has been a huge pain, because the wiring that comes out of the motor is very exposed when the wheel is off plus the weight of the motor makes it hard to work with.
Also, the hub drive motor shifts most of the weight to the back which creates unbalance which affects handling. It also makes for a rough ride if it's a hardtail.
Also, the hub motor is harder on the spokes. On my rear hub motored bike, I broke 3 spokes in one summer. Big pain to replace: you have remove the wheel, tire, and tire liner to switch spokes. My next bike will be mid drive.
Ding yes balance is key in handling also JMO it will be easier for someone with a motorcycle background to ride a mid-hub bike as it is in many ways just like a motorcycle you need to change gears for terrain and conditions powered through drive train ETC I/m doing research now and I think something like the drill one is going to be the best option for me as will be installing lights ETC to make it street legal and ride it to work round trip is doable with distance and battery IE fuel consumption
Good points. Thanks.
Yeah well just think of the handling of a front hub drive...downhill. you'll thank god your motor is on the back.
Stay awake and alert while riding, the mid drive is the king.
It you tend to be Lazy riding and not paying attention, the hub motor will work best for you.
Rodney
Last year I converted my catrike to e-assist, hub motor, you mentioned that on the mid-drive that you could tear up the chain. That was one of the deciding factors for me in that if I break a chain while riding I really don’t have to stop and fix it, I can still pedal or use the throttle and get home, the motor will work without the chain. Also, because of the position of the crank on a trike, I didn’t want the extra weight on the front of the trike.
which motors you recommend
Mid drive. Climbing and speed. Simple. And, true class 1 if you travel and want the most accessible bike to federal and state park land. I live out west, and so far my Specialized (mid drive pedal assist) has passed muster.
So does mine...
Well done video. I've rented mid-drives and own two geared hubs, and really the hub is much smoother in easing the power on and off. The mid-drives can be a bit clunky. Also if your pants leg gets into the teeth and chain of a hub motor style bike, you just stop pedaling and pedal backwards a bit to free your self. I would hate to know what happens when a powered chain grabs your pants and you aren't even pedaling! One thing with a mid-drive though is that it is easier to remove the rear wheel when you get a flat. On a hub bike its a real pain until you learn all the tricks and details involved in wheel removal..
Yep... I can tell you.. It's jams in your pants rips them to shred for about 3 long seconds before it auto cuts out. Chain comes off and you panic lol
What mids have you rented? The Bafangs and Dapus I've tried are jumpy but modern Bosch systems are as smooth as butter in my experience.
@@emma70707 I go with bafang mid drive because they mean I get an ebike for a fraction of the price of a factory made Bosch. I would rather have a Bosch but I can't bring myself to shed out thousands on a bicycle that in all honesty has a battery that will deplete in usage life after 1 year. But yea Bosch is so much better. Just about to go out on my clunky bafang lol
@@davefool6815 I get the price difference. It really is a lot. But Bosch systems feel a lot cleaner to ride (and they have legit locks instead of the junk on cheap batteries that you can pick with a bobby pin).
I will say that my battery is fine after using my Haibike as my daily driver (4 mi hilly commute in Seattle 5-6X/week on full assist so I can go 25 mph in 25 mph traffic) for two and a half years. No, a charge doesn't last quite as long, but it's at 2X commutes instead of 2.5X so it's not like it's a huge issue. I bought one of the small chargers to keep at work and just charge after 1.5X commutes now to be safe. If I hadn't needed to switch to a bike with a throttle due to my deteriorating knee issues, I'm sure I wouldn't have replaced the battery for at least another year.
@@emma70707 yeah the locks are crap. That's why I never leave it haha. I would rather have a Bosch. I'm in UK so we are restricted to 250w motor and 15.5mph. That's probably another reason why I got a bafang as you can take the speed limiter off. Cold shi t weather here doesn't help cells.
And I feel you sister... knee problems. Torn my acl years ago... gives me grief. At least we still soldier on hey lol
Love that you used my bike in this video - you can ship it anytime, ALSO How did you make the UPS truck disappear at 6:10? That was an awesome trick!!
hahah! Magic.
Impressive, but the REAL trick is getting the UPS truck to appear at it's destination, with his bike on it!
Wow great video. A lot of good knowledge being shared. IMO the mid drive is the stuff. Rides more like a non powered bike, plus the additional performance can never be overlooked. That being said , I turned up the boost on my controller today And had 9 available. I’m shopping for a new chain as I watched your video. 😂
That show and tell was very well contrasted and defined! You touched on a demonstrated by you two builds that putting a high torque mid drive system on pretty much any chain and derailure will expose that to a potential beyond its Design and Engineering.
Internal geared hub and belt drive was itself a testimony to your setting of an optimum example for mid drive builds. Obviously that optimum mid drive will have a much higher cost to build... (Always?)
Please continue with great content. Going now to check out your products and other content. Cheers
Another thing to consider is the the hub motor needs a controller box so less clean unless custom like the bikes in this video. Mid Drives have the controller built into it's shell.
On DIY you have to built a case for batteries. -i contruct the case with the controller into it.
Most clear, truly unbiased, thoroughly informative video I've seen on this topic. And I've seen a few. Well done.
I've been researching this very topic and this video finally gave me the answers I was looking for.
With that said, I still am not sure which drive is right for me. I like the torque of the mid drive, but I do not like the thought of busting a chain when I'm miles from a road.
A gates belt is virtually bombproof.
I ordered a spare chain and chain tool just in case. Cheap insurance while I am learning how to use the mid drive.
Get ebike specific chain and don't abuse it, everything will be fine. I recently got a BBS02B and detuned because it was far too much power for my needs. I carry a multitool and chain breaker with quick link just in case but never had to use it, for myself at least, once helped a person on a normal bike with a broken chain on the side of the road
The last bike I've build up I was using 350w 36v MXUS hub motor, it top at 47kph. Torque is high in fact. I didn't install the pedal assist only throttle lol! Few times it nearly wheelie up as I forgot how strong the pick up was.
Now i know what should i get soon.. Mid drive motor is more efficient and better weight distribution combined with internal gear rear hubs you just have to keep in mind to be careful when shifting gears. Great video helps alot👌🏼
For getting from A to B, high powered hubs are still king been that way since 2014, cause once you set it up the lack of maintenance as well as its reliability is unbeatable compared even to eskates and EUCs the robustness of components as well as the ability to use an ant bms (best thing since sliced bread when it comes to ebikes) and the suspension make it hands down the best option in most cases. However it still depends on the use case as bikes are bling and love to be stolen.
If you have the skills and the money mid drive stunt rigs can be very fun but again they are not as value for money as hubs and require A LOT of maintenance as chains and cogs need to be adjusted perfectly or risk failure and down time.
you forgot e-scooters. Look up Rion... Hub motors are king, for sure.
Hubs drive are crap, so many probs, the main one is loosening spokes which in turn mean callaosed rims and having to put huge torque bars on the frame to compensate, hubs are. Just terrible, I had hubs and mids and middrive. Knock the hubs out of sight
@@neilcopeland4411 I am also moving away from hubs, the inn runner motor have moved past their hub motor counterparts on account of everyone coping the Tesla rotor design, how ever this is only true for larger motors, for small motors such as the ones used on electric skateboards hub motors still dominated as they benefit from the higher pole pairs numbers compared to their equally sized counterparts.
I have both and I can confirm that hub drive bike owners are just salty about getting left in the dust by mid drive bike owners. Oh, and not earning enough to buy a mid drive motor lol
@@thisone3519 they both have their merits, hubs can work if you know how to loosen and tighten spokes to the point of trueing a wheel, in which case they are more reliable then the mid drive pedal bikes, it’s all very early days for evs at the moment even Sur Ron’s need modifications to make them work well. The best ebike is still the one you build your self.
watched a lot of bike videos and experts doing videos on EV Bikes etc,
But you Sir are with out a doubt the BEST !!!
Find you very pleasant to watch and listen too,
keep up the EXCELLENT work you do !!!
your a breath of fresh air !!!
I'm going to have a hub motor because that's what the Blackbird comes with. In fact according to the email, the August Blackbird is coming to America!
For what I do I think the hub motor will probably be better for me I do a lot of flatline riding and maybe a little racing sometimes and the hub motor works good for my purposes I love it your video has helped me out in some ways I did not know using the gears would help the motor as you said in your video it doesn't really do anything to the hub motor at all and I didn't know that thank you for the information and the hub motor is my choice
Thank you for explaining! I am definitely getting a mid-drive!
Dont forget that for ease of wheel removing a mid drive is preferable over a hub drive especially for someone like me who has back and knee problems, i just wish we could get these bikes in the UK as i love your range.
Sometimes true, but in the case of this belt, it's also bolted on. So just as much work to swap as a hub motor.
@@Area13ebikes you can buy splittable belts now from a company called VEER.
Thinking out loud...
I'm 66. I have not been riding my mountain bike. It's safe to say, I'm looking to start improving my health.
I'm thinking Hub mount. I like the idea of using my gears and getting some "back up" from the motor while riding. I'd like to eventually ride from home to work, a distance of 13 miles one way. When I used my map feature on my phone, the amount of time would be about an hour. That time is a little slow and if I could reduce the amount of time, I would be more inclined to ride my bike when the weather permits.
I'm open to suggestions.
You did a great job on that video , and honest as well, thanks for sharing that.😎
I can tell all of you waiting on the MD1000, you are going to love it. They are awesome. Yes I have one in my garage. I special ordered it before Kyle offered it and got lucky it was sent on an earlier shipment. I can tell you, your getting your Bikes as quick as possible!!
I am 6’3 280. I had to get the adjustable riser to raise my handle bars way up as the factory one was way to low for my bad back. Second I added a much bigger seat. The seat it comes with is a good seat but too small for my fat a$$. Third I added ergonomic hand grips and they made a MASSIVE difference. Greatly increased comfort and reduced wrist pain. Do yourself a favor now and order you a shock air pump so you have it when your bike arrives.
The bike is a beast. It’s easy to ride but not so easy to get on and off. It flat goes!!! Well worth the wait, I promise. I freaking love mine!!
Ok, you get best Informative e bike video on subject by far. Great job! Thank you.
Personally, I prefer the rear hub motor. It has lots of starting torque, it doesn't put a strain on the Chain, just fewer moving parts. And with a MAG rear tire you don't have to mess with all that spoke junk. It goes faster than I can run and that's all I need
I agree. But if I was doing a lot of climbing over varied terrain I would imagine that the lower gears would be more effective. Any comments?
@@kenbrown9781 Just one. The fact this guy says that a hub motor has 'lots of starting torque', in itself proves he has no idea what he's talking about. The biggest flaw of hub (especially direct-drive hub) motors, IS their lack of starting low-end torque. That's why mid-drive is essential for any serious hillclimbing. You need that low-end torque, and your bike's gearing, which hub motors cannot use.
I already own 3 hub motor bikes but want to experience a mid-drive so I ordered a Foxbat arriving in November. I live in a really hilly area and thought the mid-drive would be a better bike but I guess the real answer was "maybe" lol. Thanks Kyle - I continue to learn with each of these videos!
So how is the mid drive doing in compare?🤓
70 years comfort and reliability hub is for me . Wish you guys make a step thru.
You forgot to mention that hub motors tends to heat more specially climbing. Also people report that hub motor slows down the speed of bike when not used.
Not necessarily true.
To me, this sounds just like the manual vs automatic transmission argument in automobiles. It seems to come down to personal preference. Very informative. Subscribed.
Thank you!
So which one would be considered the manual and the auto on this one?
@@romel4761 the mid drive resembles manual operation especially during switching gears
Would of been nice to know how far each one would go on the same battery.
I want a mid drive, belt drive, internal gear hub, with a torque sensor. Would like a "cruiser style" with saddle bags. What say you?
Woody
I'd like the same but with full suspension too (and no fat tires).....seen a few "almost" candidates but nothing reasonably priced......The Frey commuter comes close though.
frey is the best option imho
Put saddlebags on the MD 1000 and there you go ... it is more cruiser than mountain bike ... IMO
Wouldn’t we all! 😎👍
SoBoWo China, model SF6
Your videos are amazing and top quality! Thanks for clarifying a bunch of stuff I needed to learn!
Hub motor is lighter and it includes the back hub, true. But e.g. Bafang BBSHD & Ultra has the controller integrated, hub motor probably doesn't. And the mid drive includes the "bottom bracket". This is not to say they are same, the mid-drive bike still can be heavier though.
For me hub motor was especially fine when I came to sudden stop, and start with a hard gear (by turning the throttle). Other than this, I personally think mid-drive is a bit more enjoyable as long as you use gears properly.
Hey!! Unless I missed it you didn't mention one of the big reasons I chose hub motor. I'm going to be ebike touring the mountain trails of Pa. At first I had thought mid for all of the reasons that you gave. Til my newb self learned that if you should break a chain with a hub motor model you can still continue to ride under power...with throttle only. Between being potentially far from a town and being handicapped I really need the bike to be bomb proof as possible!!
Love the new bikes!! Mebbe if Congress ups the stim check to 2grand.......!!!!!!
I have both and I love the mid drive hands down. Most of the time it’s in one gear but for those steep hills shift Down and you fly up them
That's one of the great things about mid drives, it's possible for them to have multiple gear ratios. The mid-drive also generally weighs less for given motor power.
My hub motor can fly up a hill
@@thomassiegers3007 how many watts do you have. Comparable watts I beat you up any really steep hill
Well done and informative Kyle. I'm currently riding a converted Trek Marlin 6 with a CSC Hub kit installed. Damn fun to ride!
Hi, I’m thinking in getting myself a CSC hub kit too, the 1500 watt one. Which power one do you have? And what is the top speed that you can get with it? I would love to know
@@abelramos1862 Hello Abel, I went for the 1500 watt hub and it's working well. I use a 48 volt 20 Ah battery and can easily top out around 28-30 mph. Not bad for a 190lb rider!
@@richloyek279 very cool, thanks for responding :)
hubs are if you want cheap or no maintenance. mid drive is if you want more power, more torque, better weight distribution.
I love mid drive - those are my reliable chain, cassette, and freewheel customers.
On my personal bikes, it's hub motors all the way.
Another great video Kyle. I am pretty researched as far as e-bikes go and I still learned a bunch from this one. Keep 'em coming!
That regen statement... I use an 80lb scooter "e bike like thing" with twin 1400w hubs and its regen is amazing! If im on full regen on a steep downhill it puts so much power back into my pack i worry it might hurt the pack lol.
Have you ever heard the difference between a mid-drive motor running 50 mph versus a hub motor at the same speed? The mid drive-motor is noisy
and another thing, the hub motor will out accelerate a mid-drive motor. Another thing, what happens if you break a belt drive on a mid-drive motor
or even a chain drive mid-drive motor? The mid-drive systems look great until you evaluate problems that can happen with them and that is why all
electric motor driven systems are more reliable than using a motor to couple a belt or chain to drive the rear wheel. I'd go with the hub drive system
for reliability.
Thank you for your opinion. I have ridden ten speeds all my life, but not so much in the last twenty years. I chose a hub drive based on your word. I find it intuitive to control through all my rides. I live in an urban environment.
Thank you so much for your invaluable information, highly appreciate it, have a great day, keep it up the outstanding job.
Mid drive if you want a motor assisted pedal bike or you have big hills.
Hub drive if you want a pedal assisted motor bike.
For most people not used to riding bikes, with a mid drive its better to increase the acceleration time so there's much less stress on the drive train if someone starts off in too high a gear (when possible).
My hub drive it’s 30 faster
the wider range of speed and maximum performance leads me toward the mid drive. plus the fact that it's more of "riding a bicycle experience".
So much great info! I think I had a lot of this figured out on my own but was just guessing so it was great to hear it explained so well to fill in the gaps and confirm/correct my assumptions. Thanks for posting!
I am used to a 21 speed comfort bike, my daily driver is a 6 speed motorcycle, and live in a very hilly area. Sounds like Mid Motor for me as I check both the 'shifting is natural for me' and need torque to get up the hills and want to pick up the pace downhill and on the flats.
Informative video. Lots of videos on this topic, most obsess with speed as the best measure of performance. A rear hub drive same power will not climb the same sustained steep grade as mid drive in granny gear. They both have limits, but unless there is a hub drive geared very low out there, mid drive always wins in mountains. A lot of the "steep grades" demos on YT are moderate grade and short length. So unless you weigh 80 lbs...
one thing that no one ever talks about when it comes to mid vs hub drives is cost. specifically maintenance cost over time.
i own and regularly use both mid and hub drive bikes, and i can tell you, hub drive are WAY cheaper then mid drives to operate. like 10-20x cheaper.
mid drives wear out sprockets, both front and rear, chain, and even tries. even something as simple as bearings wear out faster too.
this is exactly why i commute with a hub drive, and off road with a mid drive.
You sound like a very trustworthy company. Very good info!
Don't forget weight balance. A hub drive is biased towards the rear wheel, whereas a mid drive is more balanced. When you handle the two types of bike, you can immediately feel the difference.
Now this may or may not impact you day to day, depending on how and where you ride. But personally, having ridden both types, I much prefer the mid drive.
I have a Terratrike Rambler, and I am shopping for an ebike upgrade. So far the lead candidates are the Bosch mid drive, mostly because it's what Terratrike sells so I can get support in one place, and one of the higher power Falco hub motors. The claims about the Falco technology are attractive.
When I push the pedal down and feel a surge of motion I find it motivating, and conversely when I have a headwind or need air in my tires, I find struggling to move demotivating. This is why I am most interested in the torque sensing, but I like the idea of having a range of options, including torque sensing and a throttle, which Falco seems to offer.
I live and ride in Chicago, on road, which is very flat. I like the idea of a power assist. The idea of a 750W motor is attractive, but I don't know if I'll really use it. I imagine I could hack whatever I get so I can go faster on the streets of Chicago. I have no idea how aware Chicago police are of ebike laws. They tend to focus in other directions.
When you talk about snapping chains, I get very leery. I care a lot about reliability. I can't put my Terratrike in someone's trunk or on a bus if I get in a jam far from home like I can an ordinary two wheeler. I don't think that the Bosch Terratrike sells would be able to do that, but other mid drives might.
As essentially an engineer, I do find the simplicity of a hub motor appealing. Simple designs are more reliable designs. So I'm leaning towards a hub motor.
I have a terratrike rambler all terrain. Very happy with the hub motor. It is nice to have both options for pedal assist and throttle assist. Given the extra long length of chain on trikes, I was concerned that a mid-drive motor would generate too much stress on the chain. Don’t underestimate the safety factor provided by throttle assist. It is helpful for start ups from dead stops and can also provide quick bursts of speed to avoid potential sudden hazards.
@@hilarygross7401 thank you for the information! What brand/model did you go with?
Ebo350watt motor with 48 volt battery
www.electricbikeoutfitters.com/ebo-48V350Welectrichubmotor.aspx
Very helpful clarification. I'm not looking for fast but ride on steep and sometimes rough logging roads hunting so hope to carry some weight back to the truck. So distance ( multiple trips, multiple days between charges ) and carrying capacity are high on my list while not able to afford the $4-5K that are 'hunting bikes'.
What did you get?
Same issue here, and looking to put front and middrive on a bike.
You covered pretty much everything except cost difference. IME it is SUBSTANTIAL....the mid drive motor is typically quite a bit more expensive....and the in-hub transmission is way up there in price difference (initial cost AND repair or replace).
I ran into a guy the other day with the top of the line Reese and Mueller, titanium frame, dual batteries and everything else....it was 15k! It's nice to dream but...
There was certainly more I could have covered. Almost needs a part 2.
Weight: mids have integrated controller while hubs use separate controller box. Gotta add box+extra wire length weight to hub.
Mid drive all day long, Newer technology, better weight distribution and puts the power down better and smoother.
Mid drive is old tech. Gears and chains and oil and grime. direct drive is new tech, well both are ancient technologies.
either really works great just love e-biking... I lean towards the raw power and versatility of the mid-drives if there is one bike I absolutely love is your Bikonit Warthog MD1000 with it's mid drive and double battery set up.. I mainly ride my ebike off road on old trails as I am disabled and can't ride dirt bikes, quads or anything like that any more but still love to be in the woods enjoying nature and ebikes absolutely made that possible.... hope one day to be able to afford to upgrade and buy a Warthog MD1000.... thanks for all the great advise, awesome products, reviews and content... I always look forward to you newest videos and podcasts....
I still ride dirt bikes and dual sport bikes, and I have my eye on the mid motor Warthog. Availability is the impediment for me, at least now.
The torque sensor measures torque (the amount of pressure being exerted) not the "turning of the pedals" as a cadence sensor does.
Sounds like if you already ride an analog bike the only real advantage of a hub motor is if you're riding downhill at full speed. The lesser weight of the hub is countered by the weight being unsprung in the back wheel as opposed to the middle of the bike with a mid-drive.
Another great video! Very informative! I was wondering if the chainring moved with the mid drive but I figured it couldn't.
One aspect I've found with my rear hub motor is the amount of stress placed on the rear wheel as I hit bumps and potholes while riding through the city. I have to check and tighten spokes on the rear before every ride. I suspect that this wouldn't be the case with a mid-drive motor. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You're right.Mid drive is better
You mentioned the weight differences between the motors, and while the hub motor weighs less it would increase the weight of the stock hub. That increase in rotating mass really hurts handling way beyond what a small weight increase might seem.
So, what is the increase in wheel weight for the hub drive? Also, what is the net change (increase probably) from the stock hub to the internally geared hub on the mid drive?
My guess is that no one would notice a couple of pounds from a mid drive, but most would really notice 1 or two pounds more weight in rotating mass.
Rear hub drive can be as hight as 35lbs with that bloody heavy motor versa just a regular hub of 5 lbs?
On the mid drive Warthog, could the rear hub be upgraded to say a Shimano Nexus 7 or 8? How about the Uber expensive Rohloff hub. Would they handle the torque of the Ultra mid drive? 🤔
13:28 You can solve this by having a (pinion) gearbox and a hub motor so get the efficiency of a mid-drive and no drivetrain losses of hubs
I use an ebike for my daily commute to work. Its a low wind Mac500 hub motor, 45 amp controller, with lifepo4 batteries on an old steal frame bike that cost about $1200 all up. Even though it isn't as efficient as a mid drive when I am cruising up 15 degree hills at 25 kmh. In reality that inefficiency is only costing me a cent or two more in electricity costs a day. Which really doesn't mean much when you compare it against the purchase price of some mid drives ($5000+), not to mention aditional running costs that mid drives incur (increased drive train maintenance). I feel that we will likely see some more multi-gear hub motors in the future. Along the lines of xiongda 2 speed hub but with 5 or more gears. That will make mid-drives impracticable.
Mid drives sometimes you don't even know it's an E bike. So they can be less noticed and draw less attention. Where as everyone can see that rear wheel on the hub drive is different .
I like HUB drive for my e-mtb that I use for hunting so my chain is not stressed with a heavy load. A broken chain in the back country with a load of deer or elk meat is NOT a good day.
(My E-CELLS bike has TWO hub motors thus 2 wheel drive, 2 52 volt 750 watt batteries, dual suspension.
-> Hub drive ASSISTED by torque from your pedaling through a chain sill certainly help the hub motor, especially with the torque sensor as I have on my bike.
Hub motors are nice to eliminate the dependency on the chain for motive power, but large hub motors mean large unsprung weight which gets very unpleasant very quickly on rough ground.
Your bikes are getting closer to what I'd like... I'm watching for an electric replacement for the Honda Trail 90/110 and now the new Trail 125 (aka Hunter Cub). That means a utility bike somewhere in the 8-10 horsepower range (6-8KW), road legal with a top speed in the 45 to 60 mph range, and easily capable of traversing moderate off road trails (e.g. unmaintained forest service "roads"). The Ubco 2x2 is close but needs probably at least 4x the power. sur-on / segway also close and can have the power boosted, but is not road legal and too lightweight for much utility use (e.g. two-up adults, or similar loading) and the brakes are marginal at best. $5000 (like the new Honda) to $10000 (like the KTM freeride) is an upper limit on the price.
I'll keep watching! :)
Honda used a gear drive motorcycle in the 80’s. I think it was a 100 four stroke dirt bike. It was great, low maintenance, not sure if it had more drive train power loss then a chain.
Very happy with my 750 watt hub motor drive after 2 1/2 years, and 2,600 miles. Mine is 52 volt, and will easily go 80 plus miles on a charge from the 19.2 amp/hr battery.
Just got mine and on the first day have my pedal assist at 3--i keep my gears in either 4 to 6 depending on how much effort i wnt to put.I did 25 miles in 2 days and only 1 bar of power was used. I did anothe 7 today and it still had only used one bar--so 32 miles on 1 bar with very light peddling and a mix of flat terrain--offroad--city park and long distance flat--it was perfect--I have a 48v 14 ah battery and was worried about range--but since I find it enjoyable to lightly pedal--i am sure i can also get the 50 to 60 mile range--i do not think my ass right now could take any more then about an hour of riding--i will try to go further once my padded underwear comes in--lol.
@@khronin Yep, makes biking really fun! Ride safe :-)
One thing I didn't see covered, and I would like to know more about, is pedal effort. To achieve the best top speed on a mid-drive, does it require higher pedaling effort?
I'm over 65, and my legs are not as strong as they once were.
Nice video man. I have the hub motor because I literally bought the cheapest ebike I could afford. Never tried a mid motor before. Happy with what I have.
I will stick to hub. I am on my third day of riding my new ebike and today my shoe got untied and the lace went into the sprocket and luckily I felt it on the first turn of the pedal and stopped and just smoothly and freely backpedaled and loosened it--if I had a mid drive--who knows what would have happened--a wreck--my shoe pulled off or broken foot--or lace being ripped and getting tangled in the gears. And I tighten my laces before i ride so this could happen to anyone so beware.Also if the chain breaks--and mid drive puts a lot on the chain--especially if you are in the wrong gear--then you have a possible long walk home with a 60 to 100 plus lb bike--chain breaks ona hub--you dispose or remove it and use it as an electric moped to go home.BTW I have climbed some steep hills with my new CSC 20 inch on pedal assist 3 and had no problems--yes i pedal--but it is just a little efforat--but the throttle has enough power to also do it--your mph will get to 10 to 12 mph--but that is pretty fast going up a decently steep hill.BTW in pedal assist 3--which is literally very light peddling--I did 25 miles in 2 days and it barely used one bar of power--i figure i can get the 50 to 60 mile range by lightly peddling.I also kppe my gears in 4 to 6th gear and it is perfect at level 3 to stay at about 14 mph steady on all diffrent terrain-including going offroad where i actually was going so brskly i had to lightly brake.You get a 750 hub motor and it should be fine--I even went on thick grass and into a drainage rut next to the road with no problem at all.
Mid drive is way more efficient. Especially if it has 11 speeds or more. But it can only be up to about 2000 watts before you start breaking drivetrains and I don't care if its an external cassette or internal Roloff etc. You will bust that stuff its from the analog bike world