Melee needs a ruleset change.
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- Опубліковано 4 вер 2023
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I went back to Twitter (...X) asking for your hot takes about Super Smash Bros. Melee. I got a lot of responses, so today sit back and enjoy as we discuss various Melee topics, like shortening the timer, whether L-cancelling sucks, and why low tiers can be kinda lame (no offense).
edited by: / fraserlikelaser
#Moky #SmashBros #hottakes - Ігри
More videos pls MOKY DOKIE
lmao he just posted give the poor guy a break x)
@@pepn I mean that stream was streamed like a month ago
I like L-canceling, the fact that there are L-cancel traps that you can start to pull off as early as mid level (and the fact that casuals literally don’t know they’re missing frames if they aren’t told, I know cause I play with them) makes it a good mechanic because it adds depth to melee. Melee needs depth because it’s so old - the more complexity and the more things you can improve the better the overall skill level will reach until the game is perhaps truly sucked dry or abandoned
I totally agree. It's the main reason I don't play much P+; so many players want to turn off L-cancel and tilt jump
I agree with the Toph take that the 5 min timer should be experimented with, same with the taunt ruleset. Like we can speculate all we want about fox lasercamping everyone in 5 min but we'll never see if it's viable if we never try it
I don't like the taunt ruleset purely on the grounds that it'll be easy to chumpcheck new or returning or just not-in-the-know players who don't know about the rule. Additionally it's just a really goofy rule, people won't take it seriously
They have experimented with it at the nightclub and most people didn't like it according to the survey. Not surprisingly, it was as bad as it sounded.
@@equinox3861do you know what they said exactly by some chance? I understand a problem when it’s like 2 floaties but I find it hard to believe that fox vs falco or falcon or marth, where they don’t go past 2 mins would be a problem
Gotta say, I'm with moky on the L cancels. Having to always have a feel for when you land makes you feel more in tune with the character on the screen. It's also the perfect gateway mechanic for melee, you have to grind it a little bit just for the reason of getting faster, which you then also have to do with everything else.
I had to switch to box because my index finger developed early stages of arthritis because of L canceling. I see the point though
@eftorq tbh having to switch off the absolutely horrible GameCube controller is a plus, idk why melee players act like the GameCube controller is the be-all-end-all when it's literally just whatever controller we had at the time the game came out...
Exactly. L-canceling was the first tech i learned when I started. it is a good gateway for new players to learn a technique that everybody uses constantly, including the pros.
I love the taunt timeout rule, that's hilarious and genius
taunt time would need to be normalized mario and young link are way slower than chars like gnw and falcon
@@RadfordRadford just need to pick the right number
@@RadfordRadfordwe could have numbers of taunts based on character.
say its 10 for fox since its short (i think??) and like 7 for gnw
Falcon should only get one though, and even that I think is generous. (joking... mostly)
@@Keyourasa i think this is overcomplicating things. It's not something people are going to abuse lol
My hot take is simply, people will be less prone to burnout in the game if there was a bit more casual stuff like say the various side events across the summit series. Even if it were just a 8 person invitational. I still remember Alpharads item invitationals for example.
why do you think this
i feel like generally there aren’t many top players who like these kinds of events.
taunt timeout is hilariously a nerf to mario/yl
Keep these kind of videos up moky!
L cancelling is good because it's a universal mechanic that peach doesn't have to do
yay new moky video :). also cool to see that the person who edited this video runs the Melee Moments channel
Adding characters and stages via modding is cool, but it should never replace vanilla melee, I just want them to coexist
L-canceling in melee is like dribbling in basketball.
I hated it when I started to learn it but I picked it up so much faster than I thought. Also I think it's cool that things like shield angling can mess up the timings. It adds depth
Not really. Dribbling fascilitates complex interactions between the ball handler and the defender and completely changes the style of movement and play. Basketball pretty much wouldn't work if players could just run with the ball.
@@inafridge8573 It's an execution barrier in the same way that L-canceling is an execution barrier, and just like basketball without dribbling would be dumb so would melee without l-canceling.
I think 4 stock 8 minutes is iconic. I play that on every smash game i play now, it feels nice and gives you plenty of back and forth even with an sd or a gimp.
Love the take about L-canceling. Also nice shirt I bet the designer is very handsome and talented
Get my man a tissue! He had his hand on his nose in every clip
When axe beats everybody by dash dancing and taunt canceling 5 times in a row
Taunting for x amount of time back to back will fix the different taunt length issue.
I'm all for depth in games, but I L-Cancelling is the primary reason that my chances of getting into Melee (despite watching it super often) are very slim. Having the first thing you need to do to start playing the game be grind out inputs is terrible, especially for someone like me with relatively poor hand-eye coordination. Heck, even if you were looking for learning resources all of them assume you can L-Cancel, and so you simply can't do most combos when you join the game. You want the skill curve of a game to be either relatively smooth or like an S shape, but because of L-Canceling Melee's skill curse starts with a wall.
I find it really hard to believe that low level play on Rivals of Aether or nick All star brawl look exactly the same as high level play. When I picked up those games, I clearly was not moving anywhere near as fast or as fluidly as the professionals. Having been playing Rivals of Aether for years, I still cannot move as fast or as fluidly or even as intentionally as the professionals.
0:21 i dont think im ever gonna use a second of brain power to remember the name change tbh
I understand that L-cancelling serves as an execution barrier for people wanting to get into Melee competitively, but the hand health point of the tweet (which IMO is a very valid thing to bring up) was just ignored. I would like to see other's takes on it.
can't have any real takes from people that actively benefit from the gatekeeping.
It's like asking an inkeeper if their wine is good.
@@necromax13 Though this is a late comment I would like to say that Moky wouldn't benefit at all. If his hands turned to Doctor Strange cuz he did some weird perfect waveshines and needed surgery do you think he would be ecstatic? Imagine tens of thousands for rehab, surgeries, etc. Bad take imo.
@@AkiIsTaken competitive melee players do indirectly benefit from inaccessibility to the game and that's a fact.
No other game has these longs periods of uncontested dominance while also being accessible to be played.
Hax$ is onto something with his boxx controller design. Slippi is also great. UCF is ESSENTIAL to the game.
Don't lie to yourself.
I hate L-Cancelling. There's no reason not to L-Cancel. Good mechanics would have good and bad times to use them. L-Cancelling is just an arbitrary barrier.
I prefer mechanics like hit falling in Rivals of Aether. You don't want to fast fall after every hit you get. There's good and bad times to do it. And it also speeds up gameplay when executed well. Rivals also pairs with wiffed aerial moves having longer landing lag than aerial moves that hit. Fulfills the same thing people like L-Cancelling for without it being an arbitrary button press as a barrier to the skill floor.
@@KTSpeedruns DING DING DING! That's what I'm saying! Games dont need a higher skill floor, they need a better skill ceiling.
That Asuka dude really does look jacked, and really hot plus they definitely eat at the freshest restaurants. Definitely an ice cold take 👍👍
Moky is on point about all his opinions about melee. He understands the melee essence and the melee spirit.
new moky video i’m SAT
I dont think "it feels good to hit buttons" is justifiable enough to keep L canceling around in other platform fighters. Random crits in Team Fortress 2 also feel good to get, but no one in their right mind would consider them a healthy mechanic for that game.
It’s a competitor vs player mindset. So many mechanics in melee exist purely to reward training investment and don’t actually make the game more fun for anyone other than the elite… l cancelling, mashing, and people defend them because they took the time to learn them and feel proud in their accomplishments. But they don’t really make the game more fun just less approachable. They do arguably make it better for spectators though since it makes the feats the players perform more impressive.
His argument for L-canceling was that it made the game fell like shit at low level so getting good enough that its irrelevant feels good. It's a common design idea for single player games to make the player fell like they've grown, but it's unnecessary in multiplayer games where growth can come from better skills.
like, who tf says 'I couldn't get into ultimate because it was to fast too soon'
there are mixups with L cancelling like angling your shield high/low to make people mess up, but it is a pretty useless mechanic that makes the game terrible for new/low level players
@@loganalleman i think this is a comp mindset vs a casual kinda mind set. multiversus had the same issue where holding left was really about all u could do for speed and it just feels lame. same with ulti its not that its to fast to soon its that theres almost 0 progression in terms of movement once u learn how to hold left and tap down at the end of ur sprint thats it thats all there is. where as with l canceling theres so much visable improvement even tho its quite easy to learn u feel and look fast and more importantly faster than what u were before and that feels good
Intentionally finding ways to make the opponent mess up l-cancels is a legit strat sometimes, like for example with ICs and their double shield shenanigans.
That ending XD
Haha the work out tweet dismissed immediately
Just want to throw out that purposely NOT L cancelling can be a mixup
Can we get yearly rotating new stages that are tourney legal? This will keep the meta hella fresh!!!!!
the only issue with that is that theres only like 6 good stages
@@Keyourasa I think he/she means to include modded stages
@@FlamingZelda3 that could be the case tbh i was so tired last night i didnt even comprehend the thought of mods lmaoo
Preach King
Okay, I think Doc COULD be above Luigi but no shot is he above Samus lol
but tbf i also think samus better than pikachu so believe what ya want
I'd be down with patching the existing stages to eliminate jank. Would Nintendo really care if we made battlefield's ledges work?
yes they would, and they've expressed their disgust with modding in the past. The big house debacle????
@@necromax13 They wouldn't notice if Battlefield's ledges worked properly.
@@PalPlays if they were sponsoring or sanctioning a tournament featuring one of their IPs, they would, for sure, enforce that the game and consoles used are completely stock.
I just dont think talent is conceptually important past a certain point. It reduces barriers of entry, but you can always reach a higher level, than someone just by learning the right way to think about the game and working hard to apply it
Damn we're skipping the combo review video?
Taunt timeout sounds pretty based ngl
moky content 🎉
drunk melee is based. melee melee is amazing but not quite as good as drunk melee
I don't really care about l-cancelling in melee, but I think l-cancelling IS a poor mechanic because it feels to me basically like you have to do 2 inputs to properly do an aerial, which is kind of arbitrarily hard. When i played p+, I didn't turn on auto-L-cancel, but it was the first thing I learned, before even wave dash, and throughout the 100-200 hours I played at least, I still missed the tech so many times and it genuinely lost me games and simply made me feel like I could do less with my character.
Ergonomic controllers should be the standard, luckily I play on a shitbox so it didn't hurt me too bad, but it felt arbitrary and I think it would be a great if there was no l-cancelling. I think player expression should go up as skill increases, and I won't say there's none of that with l-cancelling, but I think that there would be no real harm in removing it. Not every game has to be accessible to everyone, but I think technical games should be accessible to people who want to play them, and I also think that making tech like l-cancelling (that you use quite often) so hard is just unnecessary. At least with wavedashing you always start in the same position; standing. But with l-cancelling the timing changes depending on situation.
I would also like to mention that I do think that l-cancelling DOES affect competition, but I think that it only truly affects top level play in an exclusively positive way and i think intermediate/good players should be catered to the most since that's where you're gonna find the most players (and the ones who will be top players one day)
My take is that top 6 should be standard for 1 day events, whereas top 8 should remain the standard for multi day events
So there's a 1v1v1 grand final I don't understand
Great vid
⚡
The press more buttons logic of l canceling is exactly why I can’t play anything but melee. I just wanna press buttons
honestly. when you get to playing at a fluid level the game just feels great to execute. kinda why i hate playing against some people sometimes, stopping me from having fun with movement LOL
Shoutouts to Simpleflips
good video i like it
I think a good way to combat timeouts is to make the LGL counterpickable. Maybe have three options like 30, 45 and 60. If you lose a game, you get to either choose the stage or choose the LGL and your opponent chooses the other.
I don't think that'd completely solve the timeout problem but I think it'd definitely help.
From a spectator that makes it so much more convoluted
LGL?
@@KTSpeedruns Ledgegrab limit
Why don't we only count best wins and tourney wins and ignore the losses. It would promote attendance and beating good players but wouldn't be as toxic for players feeling like they can never EVER drop a set or have a relaxed weekend, etc.
moky content OOOOBANG
You have an infectious smile
Am I too moked or not doked enough?
Where zan mok friday
Winning locals should move the needle a little but poor performances should not have as much impact adversely
the main thing about PAL is that its just more balanced, which helps every character that isnt in the top 4
+ if given the same time and experimentation as ntsc has had you can definitely find new and exciting ways to make the tools work in unique ways, evolving the characters into something familiar but new and still just as good. Marth & Falco dair changes doesn’t have to be all negative changes unless you’re stuck in your old ntsc ways. Puff & Peach being untouched top/high tiers might also seem scary but honestly, what have they accomplished in the last 4 years or so?
yeah honestly i do think PAL is the future of Melee, dunno when the change will happen but there really is no legitimate reason not to use it. Agree with you regarding the Dair nerfs @@surfingraichu7594
"exes to my ex" sounds like an emo album lol
"it's not a slippery slope"
changes to the game's ruleset and focus on ruleset have coincided with a downturn with the melee community
Focusing on the players and not the ruleset created the growth that brought melee out of basements and libraries
Not hot take - the frogs need more moki
the only ego I see is people online. Which comes with the territory with anything online. though it is sad to see so many people that style on you 1 stock then you zero to death them and they ragequit cause they feel entitled to win...
My hot take is that the people who want pokemon stadium frozen just have a skill issue.
what next for these people, frozen FOD? no whispy on dreamland?
I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want random seeds? Isn’t that the point of a tournament? This isn’t a fighting exhibition to see who would win against who when paired off, this is a fighting tournament to find the best of the best. I feel that random seeds would make future match ups more unique and help bolster viewership
Since payouts are top 8-16, seeding helps avoid situations where the actual number 5 player gets 128th for getting double eliminated by number 2 and 3 for example. It helps seeds 4-8 have some confidence in being able to afford half their plane ticket, housing e.t.c. given they perform as expected.
moky being based
Top 6? Bruh i spend 3 days watching pools to top 8, lol
As an ICs player, I get SimpleFlips's take, and I want players to feel like they're getting wobbled when I handoff them. There's a lot of differences in terms of how it works, execution, etc. But I optimize handoffs so they feel like wobbling. Honestly idk why he said that the difference are the emotions, from my perspective, people usually get the same feeling when they're being handoffed in the corner as to when they're being wobbled. In conclusion, unban wobbling :p
Didn’t know you had a UA-cam. Should have posted to /r/ssbm and ignore the comments
mokE
15:20, In my opinion many viewers feel like character representation is lower because Wizzrobe doesn't attend much and Axe isn't in peak form. Those are 2 players who were legitimate threats to win a tournament and they play a characters we don't see in top 8 much anymore.
people who are playing the game are actually trying to downplay handoffs? time to unplug the controller dog
moke :)
2 minutes a stock is absurd. Time outs are literally only bad because they are 8 minutes long. You are also objectively wrong on them being bad. They are neutral. You shouldn’t be taken seriously if you are just saying your bias upfront with the timer.
The timer is a resource. With 8 minutes it is not. With 8 minutes we just like to pretend there isn’t a timer. You should be approaching if you’re down. A timer will do that.
Because TIMERS FORCE INTERACTION
Bideo game
Half the reason melee players seem so cracked is because they are playing a MODDED version of the game with MODDED controllers.. 🔵✨💨
Bro blow your nose or something, i swear all video you kept rubbing it. love your video tho besides that
One minute in and we already downplaying. Other gaming communities do not have the drug addiction problem melee has. They have a smash 1000 mg of caffeine and don't get out of the chair that day to be better problem l. The melee community doesn't have this issue because they think they are gods gift to gaming because they play melee (this the mentality bro was talking about, not grind mentality, but it does feed the ego issue). Melee treats its events like low rent cons where everyone is going exclusively to get drunk and try to hook up with low rent entertainment abound. The fact you people delude yourselves that anything competitive could come out of this is beyond me. Now let's talk about that, the fact you think anyone who plays this game is any kind of world talent. They are not, actual gods of games go play games that have money. Pressing more buttons also does not equal skill. I'd be like saying chess is more complex than go because the peices can do more, which is false. It would also place apples to apples above both on the skill curve. Melee players have such a superiority complex tied to this game that they would throw crabs at people who play the game in a way they don't like. A literal statement btw, not hyperbolic in any way. Lol.
I could probably go on forever because "toxic mentality" is basically melee's biggest issue from day one, so I am gonna stop there and see if there is anything else worth complaining about for the other 15 or so mins of video left.
Sorry not sorry, until you look at the elephant in the room in the eye the problem is only gonna get worse.