Are You Steering Too Much and Destroying Your Own Laptimes? The Silent Speed Thief
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Steering too much actually makes your car worse at turning, believe it or not. I see it happening regularly especially amongst inexperienced/slower drivers. If you're doing this to even a small degree, today will be a good day because you're about to lift the lid on better laptimes if you can train yourself out of it.
Note: If you just happen to recognise your virtual arms as one of the example drivers, please don't take it as an insult - every single sim racer has grappled with this habit at some previous stage, myself included, and this video is made to help people find it and squash it.
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Hey Danny,
Just a feedback and a thank you. I was feeling stuck on my driving and not could not figure out why I could not improve. Since you released this video I have been trying to do what I said and today, for the first time (actually it happens in two races) I have done the fastest lap of the race.
Thank you mate!
That's so good to hear dude, keep on going! Thank you!
So in a phrase "understeer is caused by oversteer". Got it! Thanks!
Noice
yeah i noticed this when drifting lmao
i was using cars with almost 90º steering angle, so if im oversteering as much as possible, the car just straightens out which didnt rly make sense to me
alternatively "over-steer understeer"
understeer is caused by *over steering*.
one analogy I'd like to use is the own human body and how it behaves
When you're running on foot on the street or some place you like to run you're definately not going to turn your foot like 90 degrees, that's likely to either make you trip over and fall, slip and go the same line you were going before again or you'll break your knee/foot
It's the same with the car, if you turn too much you'll likely spin when exiting the corner, understeering and keep going to the barrier or you'll even burn the tires and in some cases break the suspension
so excessive steering=no good
That's a good analogy - if you're running at full speed you can't change the direction of your feet as quickly as you could if you were walking. Well you CAN, but your ankle will snap into 20 pieces, on a racecar it just means you're sliding the fronts and tearing them up in exchange for not much grip.
I agree with all of that until the end lol, but yeah understeer bad, oversteer bad. Smooth good.
This is all about tali g a good racing line, you want the quickest line through a corner, which is the one that means you turn the wheel the least necessary.
It's a very fuzzy area as the balancing of speed in entry and steering depends on your skill, car setup and the line you are choosing, the latter also helping you go fast through the following corner if immediately after. Keeping your eyes clearly glued to the entry, then immediately the exit point, well in advance. This helps you to smooth your lines, as does consistency with your braking points. Always start slowly with your entry speeds and learn how much later each time you can brake without having to turn excessively. As soon as you are straightening the wheel, start putting your foot down, you should be flat on exit but be careful in case you have just judged it a bit early and have floored it a little too soon.
Spend a lot of time with one car, one track and learn from others. Also remember one thing... No matter how fast you think you are, there's always some £&#*%^!! Who will always go faster than you!
4:24 i do this irl in electric karts and i could never figure it out. thank you for the informative descriptions.
I love how you explain what a driver is going through while racing. Every point you touched on is spot on. It all boils down to having patience; the counter-intuitive "slow down to go faster" idea that most experienced drivers will try to explain to newer racers.
Learning concepts like tire management, trail braking, doing most of your braking in a straight line, blending the throttle, being smooth with your inputs, and maintaining the racing line above pushing to go faster, all help to shed lap time as well as promote consistency. In many ways being able to lay down consistent, competitive lap times is more important than "going fast".
Thinking of cutting laps in this way helps me work on being smooth and consistent; On any given track, with any given car, there is a lap time out there that is the absolute quickest. Nobody has ever reached that "perfect" lap, but that is the time you subconsciously aim for.
The only thing that pulls you away from that time is the mistakes you're making on track, however slight they may be. There's no way to "go faster". You can only lose time.
So, if you teach yourself techniques to lose LESS time, you get closer to that perfect lap.
Thinking of racing in this way has made me a far more consistent driver. I'm never on track trying to "gain a few tenths". I'm trying to do everything right so that I don't lose that time.
Sorry for the long comments lol I'm just passionate about the art and technique behind driving.
I like your technique of not losing time. I'm constantly seeking a few tenths when I should just prevent a mistake or two. Going 5mph slower on a turn is a lot less amount of time then spinning out or understeering into a barrier.
I'm learning every day though, racing has brought my joy back to gaming.
I'm learning how to relax my muscles and twitch and it's improved my time so much more, I was trying to brute force my way through a track lol slowly but surely realizing my mistakes.
Decided to use your technique yesterday on a Nurburgring meet up and wow... Made my life so much easier lol. Instead of trying to be the fastest I just tried to hit all my apex even if I sacrificed some speed and I knocked 5 seconds off my PB. Thanks a ton!
Would love to race on GT7 if you're on there lol
@@PodiumTuningRacing I'm glad it helped! It took me a while to start looking at racing this way so I'm happy it works for someone else.
Using this technique I've managed to lay down competitive laps at tracks I've never driven before within 30 minutes. Not the fastest laps, but times that can net me a top 3 on any course.
Knocking 5 seconds off any lap is major, especially at a course like the Nordschleife. That's amazing!
Unfortunately I don't have GT7 (I almost bought a PS5 when it came out just for that game lol), I do my racing on Assetto Corsa for the PC. But if I ever do get GT7 I'll make sure I look you up! Happy lapping!
Found my way randomly back to this video and again gotta say thanks. From last year to now I've improved immensely and routinely win even against A or A+ rated drivers. If I don't win I'm usually on podium which is a win in my book. I also got VR and that has also helped me find my apex wayyy easier. Hope is well for you bro!
True Concept... turning the wheel induces scrub which causes a loss of speed. Nice graphical introduction to the concept of the traction-friction circle. .. but let's talk about the iRacing tyre model and how it behaves at the limit... especially in the higher horsepower/downforce cars.
You just nailed a handicap I didn’t realize I had. Sub earned!
Thanks man!
It's funny, I was familiar with this concept but my gaming ego had prevented me from seeing it. I wondered why all the fast lappers had so much grip (I thought it was purely set up). Can't wait to incorporate this tonight in my hunt to shave tenths or more. Thanks
Also known as the fernando alonso 2005 technique
This reminds me of how it is possible to pull too much angle of attack and stall an airplane in a turning fight.
I find in sims you can get out on a skid pad with a lateral G indicator, keep a steady speed, and see the surprisingly early point at which additional steering lock actually begins to drop rather than raise lat G.
I have a cheap Logi and I find force feedback indications vary by sim. For instance in AC there is a distinct and sudden drop in wheel centering force when your steering wheel gets past peak. Whereas in Beamng the force peaks and stays static with a gradual drop off that’s a little harder to detect. But there’s a distinct sound at the onset of understeering.
In flightsims you also notice that the plane starts vibrating, so in case you use a stick without force feedback, thats where you can see the limit. But using a cheep wheel with bad force feedback makes it really difficult to find out the correct angle of attack of corners.
Great video Danny. Topic Very well explained. Used to be a victim of this but learnt to overcome it playing acc.
Oval track racing is good practice to learn to not oversteer.
Thruxton heading into Church is a good one. Understeer there and… we’ll see ya later race course!
I see so many people doing this. Luckily I’ve never had this habit because it just feels wrong and you’re just steering way too much and not getting anything out of it, even losing grip and wearing the tires.
I'm by no means a serious driver, just having a couple of hundred hours of fun in stuff like Gran Turismo 7 with a wheel setup plus PSVR2 and i gradually disabled all assistants and helpers over the months. Became a hobby of mine to put dozens of different cars around the Nordschleife for fun to see how they feel compared to each other. So over the months i really got into that track and got more and more comfortable to keep pushing and after i saw your video i realized i sometimes did steer to much too. Thanks for your content, it's fun and educational and i instantly paid more attention to what i'm doing on the edge and corrected my driving for the better.
Man great vid I shared it with my friends you deserve more subs.
Cheers man, thanks so much for sharing!
if you understeer bc of turning too much you have to lift slightly and open up the steering wheel.
and as danny said (not quoting) in SIM Racing you need some Balls/confidence to go faster with some things not working as you would think at first.
but when you get it to grips its hella satisfying.
im pretty much a cassual sim Racer and learned it on a Thrustmaster T300 on GT Sport and AC. after just a year i was closing up to the top times. depending on the course/race Class combination i lacked just 1.0 to 2.5 sec.
Nobody can be up there in every race Class unfortunately.
What helped the most was learning the basics of how the weight distribution works on the edge of the grip at any given Speed. what goes hand in hand with that is traction and how good you can manage your throttle at any point of a corner.
most SIM Racers will kow "Driver61" and if you don't, check out his channel.
especially his driver's coaching from a few years ago. its a pretty dry course actually but it goes very deep into details over different topics of physics of a Race Car. hes a real driving Coach.
sry im not advertising intentionally😂🤣😅😅😅
first 3 seconds, left rear view mirror, you can see the mistake in his eyes..
8:35 “do do” 😂
Danny,
Would like to say that I'm extremely thankful for your tutorial videos (including this one). The way you explain and provide complimentary videos / info graphics has helped me phenomenally.
As a novice you've rapidly helped me improve my lap times and core fundamentals (I'm able to catch 80% of my spins and allow myself to drift vs happening into a slide).
Keep up the phenomenal work!!!
Cheers man, so good to hear! Long may it continue!
i watch an analysis channel for CSGO called voo and have always wanted a channel like that for sim racing. Now I've finally found it :)
Definitely need to get myself a midrange steering setup. Had a G920 for awhile, but never really liked using it, and the brake pedal felt terrible to use as well, so i just sold it and opted to use a controller to race for now, but definitely brings up the point that you can't really feel steering feedback, and as such, I tend to oversteer consistently, so regardless of how fast and consistent I felt, I was still nearly 5secs off the fastest times, and following their ghosts seemed impossible for the first turn alone. Good to learn that probably the biggest time thief for me is oversteer, I shall now try to be more mindful of that with the controller and use brakes more vs steering to get around a faster long bend. One day I'll have a couple grand to get a dd pro and racing seat mount set lol.
Thank you so much for this breakdown. I am still new to sim racing and now I am focusing on using these techniques.
I’ve already noticed a larger amount of control through the corners. Amazing content!
Thanks man, appreciate you taking a moment to comment - I love to hear it's helping people!
"Cone of grip" makes some sense, but "circle of traction" is the most common term I've heard used.
Great explanation and it translates well to real cars on track as well. I’ve personally roasted a set of front tires by doing this unintentionally…
If anyone plays ACC, you can switch your rating to consistency which shows if you're using too much or not enough input in a corner. Quite a useful tool
Can you explain this and how to do it it?
@@fatheroffood1964 It is done by standard, you can check it out in your stats in your profile
You can change it in your hud settings
I got around this by changing the steering ratio so I can't over turn even if I try
I'm here already because this was made for me and Danny texted me to tell me to watch it ASAP
1:33
this dude uses a joystick or something and assetto corsa compete
that or iRacing and ACC has errily similar joystick implementation.
dude's trying to match his joystick input to the curve of the road. For a clean cool turn
He needs to watch the steering and forget the joystick
cause not even a noob in real life would turn that hard for that corner. Look at it. Its like he was trying to u-turn , cut the corner and go around it for another approach like he's a plane. or do donuts in the smallest arc possible.
Its like .. He's experiencing lag in turning speed (he's only looking at the road. Waiting for the car to catch up with the road turn so he keeps turning in to match it). So he goes harder and harder until he hits the PEAK. turning parrallel to the road at every point(if you draw a tangent) . Pretty insane. almost engineering like. finding the edge. learning to drive on a knifes edge. consistently
unknown to him he's fucking gone .. into the understeer zone. and he keeps correcting by turning more cause according to him he hasnt even begun turning.
Probably an ETS player cause of that kink/fetish of matching turning to the road curve..... Most AI and drivers on youtube throw their car into the corner , turning way before anything. more angling the car's vector and hoping they get through than turning really.
Probably more effective for him to drive in 3rd person view and forget its a sim anyway
not like the sim part of this racing thing gives him more features to play with and more difficutlies to solve.
more an engineer's game than a racer's . race setup.... more Schumarker/Lauda than hunt/..shit most celebirty in the cloud f1 drivers
edit
came back to say he should probably just turn off vibrations. which is counter intutitive cause he bought the product and the joystick TO feel vibrations. and judge based on data more than just visuals and audio.
but when you control your body (see how unnatural that lines sounds. You dont control. you just do shit) , when you run or hell do some weird parkour thing to get away from a dog or catch a ball even
you don't wait for the sensation to do the next thing. you don't feel and do. you don't wait. you don't test
you already know what to do . you already know how much to do and what. you don't wait. you just review sensations post-event when something goes wrong.
edit over
edit..again
I WAS FUCKING RIGHT
I CANT JUST FEEL HOW MUCH TO TURN BUT ALSO THAT I SHOULDN'T BRAKE WHILE TURNING......
but also.. only do this if you ever rode a cycle as a kid
Edit over
literally just "well you can't turn as hard. So you got to get off the pedal. making racing more hard cause you got to do faster pedal brake pedal brake motions" .... honestly you could tweak Forza Horizon or Need for Speed a bit and have the same experience normally . Just add "too much steer = skid" and the game will become the same for them. and more intense. cause they have to break.
holy shit watch this and other racing sim videos shows how out of touch any person is with.. reality.
just copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. and devs say fuck you... Much like enzo
I don't race. I dont think Ive driven a car beyond just getting a license
but come on...
think of riding you bicycle as a kid.
if you are in speed would you turn hard no matter how sharp the corner? NO any kid knows they woudl slip and skid and turn over. Understeer..
has your rear tire ever slipped on water on a very smooth road. did you end up actually controlling it cause it happened for a split second and then you felt really cool? Oversteer..but by actually steering and drifts.
if you hit your brakes too hard and your tire stops but you still keep going? you skid!. So you want to control your braking... tire lock up.
Rubber becomes suprisingly smooth when its ground down wouldn't you say? If you were on it you will keep skidding not to mention anyway you turn would not matter . Flat spot
braking slowly but keeping the tire moving so you don't end up locking your tire.. ABS.
if you put your full force on the pedal while starting your cycle or slow on a corner and then speeding up in the rainy season your tire would skid and you fall. So you slowly speed up... Traction control.
now just imagine your bicycle is a quadcycle . And you got tired of paddleing so you stole your mum's pressure cookers. And then this weird dude in a cowboy hat came in saying "look son.. liquid Dinosaur. It goes boom... we call it... AAoll (oil) " so you buy a shit ton of that and replace the water with this weird black gunk and it fucking explodes and sends you into speeds like never before
amplifying EVERY SINGLE EFFECT by a 100 to the point if you want to slow down you just spread your arms out.
idk maybe im wrong. but this is how it makes sense to me.
oh fuck it why do i bother. Sims make everything fun mundane and gaming's turned to shit
Every steering action uses energy. Losing less energy while turning leads to quicker times.
Bad habits die hard, but I just managed to force myself not to turn the wheel over 40 degrees... I gained a full second on Brands Hatch applying "you turn the car with your feet". Thank you so much for this video! 🙏
That's brilliant, great job man! It is so difficult to untangle deeply woven habits like this, but it becomes second nature after a short period of conscious effort. Decent!
Love your guides danny. Hope you could make a video for proper throttle technique at some point? I've heard alot of terms such as maintenance throttle and such but never really see a video telling me the details of how it affects cars. It's all just basic understeer and oversteer explanations all the time.
Thanks man, cheers for watching and taking a sec to comment! I've got loads to cover on the list, the closest vid so far that discusses throttle is this one: ua-cam.com/video/BcDkxcdTGTE/v-deo.html
This why game controllers are so much harder. I adjusted my elite controller to slow my turning on xbox.
Excellent bit of instruction! The answer is in your feet and why upgrading your pedals (brake especially) could improve your lap times. Also got an answer to my workload, I’m going to feed the ducks. 🦆
I don't play iracing but in ACC when you oversteer the car you can feel it when the front tires break traction and start sliding.
Can you not feel that in iracing?
another thing i just noticed is that the experienced driver kinda jiggles the wheel around the corner while the newer driver just holds it. Do you know whats that about?
SLIP ANGLE
I spotted I was doing this a while ago.
As soon as I realised what I was doing and consciously reduced steering input my lap times got better.
Still not where I would like them yet but definitely better.
Very good video Danny.
👍
Cheers Doug - it must be working because I didn't use any onboard footage from you for the video from recent races! Keep at it!
2:34 as it TURNS out 😂
It's the brake that turns the car. Trail braking the car into a corner allows the car to rotate, thus reducing the need to add steering angle.
I pressed my foot on the brake and the car didn't turn. Maybe it's the weight transfer forward that is induced by applying the brakes which loads the suspension...no wait... you still have to turn the big circular device in the middle.
@@Left-Foot-Brake :) :) should have written: allows to turn with less steering angle than you would have without braking.
But when I dont understeer , i still go straight into the grass. How do I fix this?
Timeless Value !!
Do you think his steering ratio is 1080 and not 700 which means you can turn less
I think I'm definately turning too much, I even try to think about it. Now I'm new to simracing and haev spent a few days in the MX5 on Okayama Short the last couple of days. A corner I probably turn too much is the last corner, but I should be able to remedy this by braking in a better way (slow in, fast out). My other problem is being on the brake for too long instead of input much braking power at first and bleed off.... I guess it's a matter of experience and I know I will improve eventually, I just have to break bad habits before they are fully rooted in my behaviour.
Good video, good explanation, even though it's pretty self-explanatory
Nice to hear that, I tought it was crazy thing of mine, but when playing Gran Turismo 2 I felt a little better cornering when just tapping the left or right pads, for sure it was never easy, but it was effective, nowadays at newer racing games, it is more prominent because of analog stick, thanks for the explanation and the lesson...
I’m a month into this sim and I’m already trying to minimize my steering. Gotta time my exits and not over power the car while steering as little as possible and not letting the car push at exit requiring more steering. Also modulating brakes on entry and trail braking.
I'm early 😃
Early for what? Did you have an appointment to watch this video?
Worm get
Nice video, thanks for sharing. I have a question, what is the right angle for base and in game also? For excample I'm using 680 under my Fanatec base and 680 in iracing aswell but my friend is using 480 instead. My other friend leaves everything on auto in base and iracing aswell. What do you recommend?
7:35 its at that time I realised you ARE talking to me
4:57 Overdue biscuits 😂
Gotta keep up with the daily Rich Tea rate
And this is also the #1 reason why beamng drive is almost impossible on keyboard XD
Great video!!! Wish I had something like this a while ago lol. Wasn't until I heard the concept of "scrubbing the tires" that I adjusted how much I steer.
Hairpin at Suzuka - I was cross-armed and understeering - tried slowing down more and turning less and found about half a second.
That's awesome, great stuff
First off great point i havent seen anyone address really anywhere. You have to also consider the setup. A lot of default setups are heavy on understeer which creates a situation where you have to steer too much just to follow a racing line. So that can be a cause and potentially aid in improving...
Does this tip applies to every SIM game or only to certain games? For example Forza Motorsport?
Should apply to every sim!
Great Video
Great video, really well explained. Thank you!
Cheers BB
not just a Lap Time killer but a Tire killer as well.
and the "Cone" varies with the Speed of the car and the type of corner.
ooops hadn't finished the video before beeing smart ass.
,😂🤣😂😅
This is really a great video Danny. It would be great if you or someone made a video about wheel Sen setting for the cars and game turning sen for the cars. You don’t need to every car just get a idea to stop cross over problem.
how would this work in hair pin turns ?
8:33 "Is as important as figuring out what they *doodoo."*
I am a child
This might be why is my car understeering on blind corners at brands hatch
Very helpful video and sounds familiar , Do you do any coaching by any chance
Brilliant, this is something I have been working on and I have been having a hard time overcoming this problem.
This migth be why i cant take eou rouge flat out with gt3s, may be, i need to practice
Eau Rouge is normally flat in GT3, depending on the sim and conditions of course but generally it's doable if you have it down good. Upload a clip if you want advice, link it in a comment.
@@dannyleeracing In acc I've never managed to go flat out on eau rouge, I usually either lift a little and then get back on the throttle towards the end of the turn or lift to about 30-50% throttle for the whole turn. Maybe it's setup because I've tried the turn a million times in a million ways and never managed to not get a lap invalidated going flat out.
God Bless you.
Appreciate this!! This will help me a lot
Hope so! Let me know if you find you were doing this!
Hey! Newbie question, assuming FFB is not clipping, whenever FFB peaks is when you should stop turning your steering wheel correct?
Incorrect, I'm afraid! FFB clipping has no relation to how much grip is underneath the tyre, as it can vary wildly at different speeds, so don't use it as an indicator. What wheel are you using, by the way?
@@dannyleeracing @Danny Lee I'm not sure you understood it correctly, let me try again. I use a T300. Like, when I'm turning the wheel, there is always a point where even if I turn it further the wheel won't do any more force (even if it is not clipping), now this point depends on speed and corner itself (on higher speed corners this peak in force is higher). when I do reach that point I always assumed that's where max grip is, isn't that correct?
Ah, gotcha - To some degree you're on the right track and it does depend from game to game, but when you feel like you're steering the wheel past a 'barrier', that's how you know - it does feel a lot like what you describe, as though there's no more force being added. If you go way too far then the force usually slightly drops. It's a hard thing to pin down, but if you know that it exists then you can look more closely for it.
What is the name of the counter steer move at @00:57 and is there a video explaining it? Thank you.
I think that was just an instability wobble, I wouldn't read into it too much! Comment again if you want to ask anything else, for sure
@@dannyleeracing Thanks Danny! I asked because i see most of pro sim racers do it when exiting corners to regain stability like you said or grip.
I have the problem of under turning the wheel :/
Great channel!
“Do do” yuk lol😂
*My Brain* 8:36 "Haha He said do-do" Great video!
What do you recommend to set my wheel lock to? Clubsport 2.5 wheelbase on iracing. Cheers!
I have always stuck it at 1080 degrees! That's the recommended range
This is definitely my problem! Thanks I will work on this and hopefully be able to beat my friends! 😂😂
Go for it, man - there is no more valiant reason to improve than dunking on your mates
Fantastic video. Thanks so much!
Turned best average lap times after applying this tip. Long way to go, but great start.
Great job man, keep going!
Good core knowledge to keep under your belt!
Thank you for taking the time out of your day to make these videos.🙏
Thank you for taking the time out of your day to watch and comment!
I’ll admit it, I am an excessive wheel turner. I will get better after this 7:35
brilliant video! also , did you realise you said "doodoo"? lol
I did say doodoo indeedy
Thank you!
Useful tip, thanks for sharing!
Thanks man, hope it helps! Plenty of other guides in the playlist too, if you missed 'em
Amazing video with amazing approach
Thanks mate, cheers for the comment!
I think I am the opposite. I steer too little when being at the slowest moment of the corner :D
That's also a problem that can be solved, but that'll be more about building confidence and balance - what would you say causes you to be a little cautious with steering?
@@dannyleeracing Been racing for around 5 years. Most of that the old AC in leagues. I just think that I wasnt confident at all in the beginning and now, over the years without proper practice/analysis, it just became such a habit that its hard to relearn. Most likely it will be poor braking into the corner I would assume. Or simply that I ask too little of what the car can do in rotation at the apex.
Nevertheless this is a great video as usual. Infromative and to the point!
Sometimes the car being used understeers alot and its a natural progression to turn more than needed
Which will just make the understeer worse
@@PhillipHomer well der!! brain fart
@@PhillipHomer Well done Homer!
😬
I just clicked on the video to say "yes" to be completely honest.
So, yes.
Yes
Fernando alonso disagrees hahahahaa
Joking, nice video
Nando is a law unto himself
I use a controller so it's very hard to not do this.
I used this technique today and I use controller and I was able to gain time on the fastest guy on the leaderboard through the high speed turns by turning less. It’s definitely possible
Still possible to do it and it's gonna be much better in the end for you to keep trying until you get it
First thanks for the video. This 12 min video could be just like 3 minutes. For those impatient the solution is between 9:56 and 10:32.
This is due to something called "slip angle"
Indeed 👍
Great video Danny. Really helped and informative. I’m sure this will make a difference to my lap times. Thank you. 👍
Cheers man, thanks for taking the time to let me know! Enjoy