Armageddon 2001 - Atop the Fourth Wall
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall, where bad comics burn. In this episode, we begin Event Comics Month 4 with the DC event Armageddon 2001!
Check out more AT4W shirts at Shark Robot: sharkrobot.com...
Title Card Art by Viga: / vigasartroom
atopthefourthwa...
/ at4w
Originally released March 11th, 2022
ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: Not Really Armageddon 1991.
#at4w #dc
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Given how funny the whole "over there" thing is; in context, Superman grabbing someone and saying "You're over here, now." is legitimately an awesome threat.
"That problem is *over there* !"
*A chain flies out and impales Monarch in the stomach*
Scorpion: "So, *GET OVER HERE* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Right! It's an actual cool rework of that entire speech and joke.
Reminds me of the "You're not fight a *woman* now are you!?" line from the very first Superman book 😂
More awesome than those professional writers could have figured out~
This event comic really is like that meme that goes: "They had us in the first half, I'm not gonna lie."
Changing an ending because people guessed it is like saying "Oh no, our foreshadowing was too good! Now we have to make it terrible instead!"
I know it’s not a twist (but since it had a lot foreshadowing, a lot of narrative resonance, and a lot of catharsis I’m going with it) it would be like if the Avatar writers decided not complete Zuko’s reepmtion arc bc everyone guessed it/everyone was cheering for it
@@gennybaratta2460 ironically, they kinda did it in season 2. but they wrote it so well it was part of said redemption arc so zuko realized what he wanted for so long (restoring his honor as prince of the fire nation) doesn't feel right anymore
I thought the issue was less "readers guessed the ending" and more "someone spoiled the ending". It wasn't about being obvious.
In a way, this reminds me of Bishop's backstory in X-Men. He went back in time to find the "X-Traitor". Suspicion falls on Gambit, known as The Witness in that timeline. Because in Bishop's future, he alone survived the death of the X-Men. This ultimately goes nowhere and the video Bishop discovered (his entire motivation) of Jean Grey being "killed" is retconned into being part of the Onslaught saga. Wherein no X-Men die and since that time, Bishop's entire future was retconned and rewritten. The Witness no longer being part of it.
its still dumb but the more accurate thing is people knew the twist because of a leak to a 900 number
Seriously, Hawk's heel turn is full of insane troll logic- "This guy killed Dove... so I should become him to stop people from hurting each other!"
You… could make it work, I think. It’d have to be gradual. He loses dove and that starts a downward spiral into the “ends justify the means” mindset. Bit by bit, he replaces his arsenal. By the time he’s calling himself monarch, if he is bothered by the fact that he looks exactly like his wife’s murderer he’s so deep in rationalizations that he can’t let it bother him. And when he finds himself at the moment of dove’s murder, he’s so dedicated to this authoritarian dream that he’d kill the woman he once loved so dearly to make sure it happens.
@@Fluffkitscripts regardless, Hawk becoming Monarch just doesn't make any sense and is stupid. If Hawk found out that he becomes Monarch in the future and kills Dove, wouldn't that make him decide not to become Monarch?. Also Monarch is stuck in a deathloop because he has to die in the present to exist in the future. He'll never live longer than the year 2030.
He's doomed to repeatedly travel back in time and be killed by himself forever.
@@marvelanddcretrospective he doesn’t have to know it’s him in the rework. The idea is he only realizes he’s become monarch once he’s past the point where he would care about it. And if he realizes he has an impending date with death, maybe he decides to sacrifice himself for the authoritarian dream that’s supplanted his heroism.
Waverider: Are you going to become evil, Superman?
Superman: No. Why would you think that?
Waverider: No reason. Just checking. *leaves*
...
Waverider: Are you sure you won't turn evil?
Superman: Yes! Positive!
Waverider: OK. Just making sure. *leaves again*
...
Waverider: All right. There is the potential...
Superman: DUDE, I WILL GO INJUSTICE ON YOUR ASS IF YOU...
Waverider: OMG! You are gonna turn evil!!
Waverider: sorry you have multiple books and all annuals have to be tie ins.
If your mystery is predicated on the readers not being able to know the reveal, then you've written a bad mystery
I'd have made it so monarch being a former hero was a red herring, and it turned out he was actually a future killer moth. And had a girlfriend who had a deep voice from smoking too much.
....
Okay... you're too damn clever for your own good. I'm giving you a like for that.
Wait, why Killer-oh, I just got it.
But I like Killer Moth! Sure his name has Killer in it but should we really have the man with the goofiest costume kill all the heroes? Yes, yes we should
When I was reading Armageddon, I just came off of reading a lot of Grant Morrison. The thought that went through my head was that Monarch NOT a hero but in fact was an obscure supporting character in one book that hadn't seen the spotlight in years. I imagine that the majority of fans would have less than stellar opinions of this but fans of the particular title the character appeared in would be shocked, reading those same older titles with different eyes knowing that this c-list supporting character was capable of all this. That's kind of why I'm an odd man out amongst fans when it was revealed that Harold betrayed Batman in the Hush storyline, because I actually remember that character.
How I would have written Armageddon: Monarch is Pete Ross, former best friend of Superman. At the end of Armageddon, Monarch is 'gone' that the timeline he existed in is gone, but everyone is keenly aware of what Ross might become. It would also put everyone on edge 15 years later when Lex Luthor becomes president with Pete Ross as his vice.
@@kingsadvisor18 Eh, Grant Morrison is too often the embodiment of "Too damn clever for his own good."
Feel like there was a missed opportunity for a Mean Girls joke.
"DC, stop trying to make Captain Atom becoming Monarch happen, it's not going to happen."
Monarch of the first issue was surprisingly interesting, at least to me.
His dystopia is dime-a-dozen, ignoring the aspect of outlawing heroism
But I find the image of Monarch ruling from presumably the JLA watchtower satellite, alone, just watching over the earth, so compelling. Unlike when they make Superman an evil dictator, which leaves a sour taste in my mouth, Monarch feels like a tragedy. His dystopia is almost on autopilot. Monarch doesn’t even really take time out of his day to come down to earth to kick ass or make big speeches, not anymore. I do actually believe Monarch set up this pre-destination stuff with Hawk/Capt. Atom/Wave Rider/etc. killing himself and leaving everything to his Peacekeepers. His reputation, the idea of him alone, watching all of them from space, that seems to have been enough to keep everyone in check. A perpetual panopticon, everyone in fear that he’ll come down from out of the blue and strike them down.
Plus he’s also interesting in that he’s almost meta-textually aware that someone with time travel would eventually try to undo his work. For one, that’s the kind of logic I expect from a hero gone evil. Second, it’s interesting in how it almost implies he’s scared of the events that changed him. He doesn’t want to relive that past, to make those same decisions, to face what he’s done.
It’s a darn shame they dropped the ball on this one. I wasn’t expecting Monarch to capture my imagination like this, but now it’s all gone to waste
That's actually a pretty chilling and compelling interpretation of the first issue. Monarch said he wanted to make sure the society he built survived, and to do that, he needed to remove the last supervillain: himself.
what's more in this bad future the badness is...subtle. Nothing OVERTLY evil, jsut a few HINTS of soemthign being WRONG. Aside from the outlawing of heroes, we see people casually accepting the casual cruelty, handwaving it away, noone quesitoning it or fighting against it cause it's not causing THEM trouble. Monarch's not sending people to death camps or havign giant robots murder random civillians for funsies.
Its a real shame all this nuance and subtlety is lost in the second issue.
@@sarafontanini7051 It's scary how that's kind of describing what's happening today and in some American cities.
Honestly, you pretty much summed up why I liked Monarch when I read that issue, too bad they threw away all of that nuance to make him just another big bad with muscles.
Making Hawk Monarch is like making Bruce Willis a leprechaun at the end of the Sixth Sense only because it is unexpected
Oh great. Now I've got the idea of Disney making a 6th Diehard film (Exclusive to Hulu of course) and unceremoniously killing off Bruce Willis's character in the first minute so that his son Jack can be the new hero (Despite you know. BEING A SPY)
"Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father."
"He told me enough! He told me YOU killed him!"
"No... I am your sister."
"...Wait, what?"
"Oh, sorry. The whole father thing was leaked, so we needed a new twist. Are you surprised??"
"Well... I GUESS so, but..."
"JOIN ME, and together we can rule the galaxy as brother and sister!"
"I've got some REALLY WEIRD feelings about all this..."
The thing about *that* one was that the twist I think WAS spoiled (I ***THINK***), but everyone thought it was a troll move.
"Stories don't have to be unpredictable to be good. Hell, the fact that people can see where things are going just means you're doing your job properly as a storyteller. It's only a problem if you haven't made the story compelling enough for people to be invested in its conclusion."
Yes. All of this, absolutely 100% yes
Edit: I didn't intend for this comment to become a hotbed of complaints about stories where this is considered an issue, I just agree with the general premise. It reminded me a lot of Overly Sarcastic Productions' Trope Talk on Plot Twists, where they cite that a twist is bad if it's nonsensical, contradictory, overly self-congratulatory, boring or never matters again afterward. They also describe it in terms of Alfred Hitchcock's example of suspense: if you show an audience a room and blow it up, they're momentarily surprised. If you tell your audience that a bomb is gonna go off in 10 minutes, then they have 10 minutes of suspense before it does. But if you do the latter and then a clown jumps out of nowhere and stabs someone, you don't win because all you've done is confuse them.
A lot of people bring up their usual examples (TLJ, RoS, GoT), but personally I found most of the "twists" from Sherlock to be the worst and most disrespectful examples. Not only is the story focused on trying to outsmart the audience, but it's too afraid to ever let Sherlock be truly wrong about anything. He always has to be this amazing genius who just knows everything ever, but only by giving people trivial data to work with and then solving it all offscreen, and Moffat patting himself on the back for being the mega-ultra-best showrunner ever. And, to quote hbomberguy, in one episode it turned out a boomerang did it. There are twists that untwist themselves just to make it clear that Sherlock is always right and always okay. The show basically becomes predictably unpredictable.
Bottom line, don't disrespect your audience and don't ruin your stories just because you want a big shocking reveal. Sometimes the most shocking and horrifying idea for people isn't that a story surprised them, but that they can see a twist that they really don't want to be true coming and there's nothing they can do to stop it.
That's partly why The Last Jedi is so frustrating for me...
Well, it was compelling enough and had a satisfying point to make for me personally. It's still subjective in the end.
The last Jedi is an interesting example of this since it tried to use subversion to make the story completing without making it predictable but by the time the subversion came it didn’t add anything of value to the story, I actually think that the same story could have worked by rearranging some things (like putting the reveal earlier in the story, or using the main antagonist you already has at least a little bit more, since his show of power is made complete nonsense by the way he dies, or even keeping some amazing deleted scenes ie Luke remembering Han in silence would have been depressing to watch in the actual movie) but even then it feels like the subversion was the main point of the story and the story seemed to forget that after you do a subversion you should also do something interesting with that, yet the subversion was the point so it gets forgotten about in around 5 minutes for the rest of the plot to move forward
This kinda why on hindsight why Steve Universe frustrates me . IMHO after the twist is revealed the story partly goes downhill
Personally I like TLJ and I don't think the movie was trying to unpredictable but rather it was trying to not be repetitive like TFA (which, while I don't hate either, it was very criticize for being just a rip-off of New Hope) with Johnson trying to add new ideas: Not every protagonist in a story is a choosen one or related to someone to be special (Rey), the risk decision are not always the right ones (Poe), not every villain can be redeem that easly (Kylo Ren) and, most important, even our heroes and legends aren't perfect, are capable of making mistakes, but is how they handle these issues that makes them symbols to inspire new a generation.
For the monarch thing, DC should have
A) stuck to the original reveal
B) made it where "monarch" was a legacy villain
C) one identity, multiple people.
Option C would be nice since it does add the mystery over who is Monarch really.
We all know that if DC did that, one of them would be the Joker.
@@o76923 ugh that's depressing because you're absolutely right
Linkaras suggestion of it being Wawerider however would have been most predictable and done story elsewhere, and a cop out that the the new character is the villain.
@@sarasamaletdin4574 at some point does it become so predictable that you wouldn't expect it?
Also, was it during part 1 or part 2 that Monarch revealed that he steals Waverider's powers in the future? If it was part 1, that would make the twist more interesting.
Very much appreciated that huge sequence of Darkseid jokes. Now you can be sure this episode doesn't wind up on a Missed Opportunities video, lmao
I loved the Ghostbusters 2 reference, and now I want to see the Statue of Liberty fight a giant Darkside.
@@jjmfdl you mean an Onthetallseid
This is what happens when you make action figures in varying sizes!
@@adamgoss3638
Darkseid was one of those "just add water" to grow monsters!
I'm sure there'll be more in the next Missed Opportunities video anyway lol
“Dammit! We can’t summon Godzilla to fight him, he’s a Marvel character!”
Actually, since Godzilla: Awakening was published by DC, he’s technically a DC character as well. On top of being a Marvel, Dark Horse and IDW character.
Point is, Big G can be a part of whatever comic company he wants.
He’s a free agent.
@@chaosshadic40He's rated E, for everyone can catch these hands, boy.
Monarch is like Brother Eye, DC sees an interesting idea and will milk the well dry.
At least Brother Eye was executed well, Monarch is an interesting idea that DC screwed up initialy and somehow they continued to try to salvage it, somehow to make even worse each time.
@@vfvfq1279 Yeah but even then, DC refuses to let Brother Eye keel over and die, considering how many times they kept bringing him back (looking at you, Futures' End...)
@@AtrocityEquine01 also looking back at Batman beyond series during the terrible new 52
Like everything else in Linkara’s life it all comes back to Countdown…That thing really won’t die will it?
*SPACE IS WARPED AND TIME IS BENDABLE!!*
@@thatonea-hole *Combine harvester begins playing*
Well are you past Inferno yet? After all it just keeps coming back to Inferno.
Just like all of his running jokes.
as he said before, everything in the DCU somehow leads to Countdown from character motivations to the story to characters themselves from the event
Before the leak, my theory on who Monarch really was ... was Booster Gold. He knows about time travel, the armor's colors are the same as his, and his reasons for being a hero (at the time of this comic's publication) were suspect at best. He didn't really want to good, he wanted to make a buck and be famous. I could easily see him showboating or grandstanding for attention, and letting something awful happen as a result, then going a little Cuckoo For Cocoa Puffs and embracing the ' I must protect everybody after my failure'. Especially if that grandstanding resulted in the death of Blue Beetle ...
NGL, that sounds better than him being captain atom
Ok, the whole "He was only a hero for the money" thing is a misconception. A result of flanderization.
Imagine if they decide to kill off Jaime and make Booster Gold the fourth Blue Beetle in the future (Update. Remember that I'm never trying to jinx it) Oh god. I just realized who they could've axed to make Booster snap. Ted Kord. Seriously. Have The Joker slaughter Ted. And Booster decides that he's going to ensure that there's a safe future. No matter what. His last words before fully putting on the armor being "All it takes is ONE BAD DAY".
That's kinda funny since they ended up making him the new Waverider.
Hilariously Barbara Kesel had offered a "better" idea for Monarch when they came and asked
Hawk and Dove would Fuse into Unity but just like how T'char and Terataya went completely bonkers due to the fusion, Unity would end up being Monarch 'Monarch is even a class of Bird so it works on several levels'
The Kesels were essentially trying to avoid Fridging Dawn and just casually undoing all the character work they had done on Hank... so Hawk and Dove would die Heroically but that sacrifice turns into something horrific
A being caught between two extremes
DC rejected the idea cause it was too complicated in there view and went with the tried and true method of turning people evil
Hawk and Dove HAVE never recovered from this though thats due to the mindfield they created later trying to undo this mess
That actually sounds better than the alternative idea of Wave Rider becoming Monarch, or Captain Atom become Monarch as originally intended.
It is also the better way on how Hawk becoming Monarch if DC ones to stick with it.
I was one of those Hawk and Dove fans who got so, so mad at this. Especially because in the main book they had JUST come from a story where Hawk was going a bit insane, seeing his brother's ghost, and Dawn and Sal (her boyfriend, the police chief from the book) had JUST got together because the book refused to go the cliche "Hawk and Dove should be a romantic couple since they're opposites" and things were WORKING and getting interesting with the Lords of Order and Chaos and then this. UGH. Thank you for the review, and for voicing what was wrong with this reveal.
I agree 100% that this crossover was completely bs.
and Sadly thats seems to be the only direction they want to go with Hawk and dove now... the dysfunctional lovers angle, Dawn;'s in love with Hank but He's A: Her rapist, B: Murderer of her Little Sister C: Has lost a large chunk of his redeeming qualities
and DC doesn't want them to be anything less thats the Status Quo DC wants for the two You know like how Cyborg must always be angsting about whether he is more machine then man.
Cause thats the DC formula pick a status quo and revolve around it.
@@rwg6357 Oh, yes. That's why despite being a huge fan of their second series (the post crisis one) now I can't even stand seeing Hawk and Dove. They have been completely ruined by people who just didn't get why people liked the second series!
And shortly before the Don's ghost story, they had a storyline where Hank was trying to gain freedom from Order's complete regulation for people in another dimension. It played off the old, simplistic idea of "order = good, chaos = bad" by showing that order could lead to dictatorship, while chaos could be another name for freedom. But even more complex, because too much freedom in the situation that civilization was in would lead to massive death. Hank Hall was a much more complex character than he was ever given credit for, and making him into a brutal dictator made no sense.
@@violagreene4643 yeah! That’s also when they decided that they weren’t going to have a child together! Man, their series was SO good.
One of the stories that led to Countdown....
Linkara is right, that story has tendrils that went everywhere!!
That abomination of a comic story is basically living rent free in his head
@@DarkKnightofAnime
A comic that breaks space and time!
So wibbly wobbly timey wimey
Eventually it all ties back to Countdown, even Marvel vs Capcom.
Maybe the real Armageddon was the friends we made along the way.
God, that “no” over not reading tie-ins is hilarious for some reason!
I had to stop myself from laughing really hard and waking up the house.
It’s both slightly funny, and kind of terrifying for me.
No irony, no sarcasm, no cynicism:
The Granny Goodness joke will ALWAYS make me laugh!
I'm exactly the kind of troll writer who would end a Monarch event with him taking of his helmet to reveal his face is half Hawk and half Atom, then flip the bird and declare "TIME IS BS!"
So like Hawkman, Atom and Hawk merged together
@@thatonea-hole I dunno, thanks to CW I can only see Hawkman a r@pist who will murder anyone who else who gets close to his obsession, and while my Monarch may be fascistic dictator driven mad by DC's melty Jeremy Bearamy Jello mold of a timeline: that still seems unfair comparison to him
@@thatonea-hole, then Grant Morrison reveals he was Composite Superman all along!
having the villain's very identity be this mrged entity due to the very nature of time travle warping his identity and appearance woul be kidnda cool though
Flash eating fast food was an ongoing thing in his own book and JLE at the time. Wally had yet to connect to the Speed Force and needed to eat hundreds of thousands of calories to keep his powers working.
That's a real-life thing with Olympic athletes, it's why they can get brand deals eating McDonald's without turning their finely-tuned bodies into goo.
The fact that her name is Karen makes every interaction with her hilarious!!!
"Heroes in Crisis" only having TWO tie-ins sounds unbelievably refreshing.
I am astounded you didn't make a joke that Rider's daughter, who has become the follower of an evil controlling organisation, who's job is likely to go out and berate people for not doing what SHE wants........is named Karen
Thing is, that name didn't have the same meaning back then....Power Girl's civilian name is also Karen.
@@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 And Superman's whole "Gay City" stuff...
@@ShadowSonic2 Bumlebee's real name is Karen Beecher-Duncan.
10:39: Holy crap, it really is "Batman V Superman: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack".
The naming conventions for these Event Comics months are getting more and more hilariously absurd.
Like the Events itself, so it is thematically appropriate.
@@vfvfq1279
Fitting since the DC & Marvel can be hilariously absurd or frustratingly absurd
@@thatonea-hole
They both need a thesaurus!
@@thatonea-hole I vote the latter. I hope that one day in Event Comics Month V in 2024 that he includes stuff other than Marvel and DC like Mega Man & Sonic: Worlds Unite, the crossover event that not only ended 4 series but also kind of nearly put Archie into bankruptcy. There's also Death Mate but that's way too obvious.
What happened to Secret Metal Armageddon I? LOL
I love the first Armageddon cover just cause of Batman. With his fist behind his cape like that he looks more like he's gonna angrily shake it to the sky yelling about "those rotten kids always on my lawn with the blasted rock and roll"
Recorded on VHS. Everyone knows BetaMax is better.
I totally get why you don't include the tie-ins when reviewing event comics, but I admit there's *one* issue I would have loved to see included here, tho you did mention it briefly - the Action Comics annual where Superman became president (at the end of which he saves Pa Kent in the present and changes his future again thanks to sensing part of Waverider's vision). Sure it's not much more than a what if or Elseworlds kind of tale (Elseworlds are what got me actively reading and collecting comics), but it's one of the most positive and hopeful Superman stories I've ever read. When I had to make an emergency move many years ago to get away from a bad living situation, I had to abandon most of my comics collection due to lack of space in my car and money for shipping which I'd already spent on saving most of my paperback books. But among the comics I made sure to keep, was that annual. In a sea of grim and gritty it was and still is a ray of pure sunshine. I especially thought about it a lot during the "Anton York" years.
I still remeber another of the Superman Annuals, the one where he leaves Earth and marries Maxima, as one of the best of the bunch.
I understand that Linkara does not want to talk about the tie-ins, but I would have liked to hear wich ones (if any) he liked and wich ones he hated.
@@bibliotecaroncoroni6067 That one was interesting.
It really does feel like it channels the hopeful spirit of those "Imaginary Tales" from the 60s- plus it shows how Superman would use his powers for the common good, while denying himself ultimate power like the Green Lantern ring. One of Roger Stern's best works that I've read.
Love how Linkara has to explain the event comics 'problem' with tie in issues every year because everyone forgets in the intervening 11 months.
True for the previous three event comics months, however this time (and possibly future times depending on release schedules) it was 23 months as he is planning on alternating Events and Retrospectives in march to not over work himself.
I didn’t forget. I just don’t agree with it.
From what I've heard, Marvel's War of the Realms was TERRIBLE with all its tie-ins.
I like linkara but I honestly don't watch all his vids, so this was the first I heard his views.
I honestly kind of wished it was Hawk and Dove trying to save Bruce Willis spaceship and Earth from a giant asteroid hitting Earth while Aerosmith plays.
.......what?
@@ericwhite1942 He made a reference to the movie "Armageddon" with Bruce Willis.
AND I DON'T WANNA MISS A THING!
As this began, I thought Waverider was going to be Monarch. I couldn't agree more with your take on this.
That would been cool
Thank you for the bit about 'being predictable' not being a bad thing. It's always one of those things that so many people treat as a flaw just for existing and it never makes any sense to me.
One of the parallels that the change messed with was that Captain Atom was also a "volunteer" for an experiment that propelled him through time.
Can't believe they still won't collect this.
The reveal of Captain Atom would've probably made so much more sense, especially as from what I've seen of Captain Atom he tends to dip into Jingoism and Fascism tones a lot vs other heroes. But of all people, why Hawk???
5:13 - 5:53
Well, that's gonna be a pain when we reach Civil War ll seeing that crucial information was left in Cap's tie-in books where it's revealed Hydra-Cap was manipulating events from behind the scenes this whole time.
Civil War II was a mess of nonsense from beginning to end, and no amount of tie ins could fix it. It also lead to next to zero impact going forward, except the deaths of a few medium-high profile characters that have all been undone in the time since.
The biggest impact of Civil War II was causing readership to drop on the books that tied into it, causing several cancellations.
@@Dalenthas That's because it was only a crappy attempt to cash in on the more successful Captain America : Civil War movie. It was so bad that most of the other tie ins except for Captain America gave it little more that a passing reference.
@@Dalenthas I don't know if I'd say Civil War II is the worst event comic but I definitely tend to say that it kind of makes a near-perfect checklist for everything bad event comics are known to have.
Heroes fighting heroes
Heroes killing heroes
Character assassination and OOC behavior
Massive and uncaring disruption of other series
Bad retcons
Important information left in the tie-ins
"Changes the universe forever!" but only for the worse and is eventually and thankfully undone.
I'm sure I'll remember more when Linkara gets to the actual review.
@@Dalenthas to a degree, its biggest impact civil war had was that, with that first death and at 3 or more deaths and resurrections hulk bruce banner went through afterwards, all in-between less than 3 years, led to the events of immortal hulk.....
and to a degree the creation of the champions team but that's it
@@aros0018 the worst part is that it fails even at being just popcorn heroes fightning heroes
as the only true fight we get between many of them is the battle at the triskelion in the issues 5 or 7.
besides that, is the inhumans ruining stark's life, and carol vs tony. because even the intervention of bruce banner feels less like a fight than just pointing him with the finger saying "you will kill us!" and then hawkeye snipes him
How appropriate that Ryders daughter is named “Karen”.
I just want to throw some extra love on that actual lean forward instead of slow zoom for the "No."
Love your work Linkara
Me: Finally I can get some sleep
Linkara: here’s a new video
Me: But I got shit to do tomorrow
Linkara: and?
Me: Yeah you right
The glorious rant about relying on twists for stories, changing plot points to protect said twists and the sunk cost fallacy/deminish returns of heroes going evil was so great, so perfect. Instant like! And I can tell where some of this stuff might end up coming up again in... two weeks or so. But, we'll deal with that when it comes. Great job, Linkara. You finally put this story to rest. The circle is complete, the final rung in the horror show of Countdown is closed.
Countdown will never fully go away, but this seals a good chunk of it.
Kinda shocked he didn't reference the sudden implosion of Game of Thrones and/or Westworld when he went on about how twists for the sake of twists almost always results in a worse product.
@@brendaneichler5244 Same. Was definitely the first thing that came to my head. And that's from someone that did not get into GoT but heard the backlash from everywhere. Was that bad.
@@ReikuYin Especially in the final season because the writers behind the show wanted to move on and ended it in such a way, it destroyed whatever good will they had. Plus they did that because they were going to work on an upcoming Star Wars project that never happened... mostly since those two got kicked out.
What now?
As one who was into comics when this came out I remember the behind-the-scenes stuff this way: Comic book stores figured that the since the Monarch was a hero his book would be canceled. Looking ahead to the end of the summer and the resolution of the story, they saw Captain Atom would be canceled, therefore he was Monarch. Made sense as he was one of the few who could best the likes of Superman and Green Lantern. At some point during the summer at a con someone (a writer?) from DC at a panel confirmed this. DC said he was just guessing and scrambled to find another hero who was also being canceled who could be Monarch, giving us the implausability that is Hawk.
All cause of THAT?! Sweet jeezus. All cause of a lucky guess.
@@MegamanNG it also was apparantly in the solicitations and store owners were leaking it and the 900 spoiler number at the time.
Insisting on a twist actually directly harms the story.
The revelation that a hero is twisted into an oppressor is only interesting if it's informed by things we already know about them.
Then the reveal feels not only justified, but right, as the pieces fall into place.
Just like any mystery story, the trick is making the reader feel like they could have guessed the ending - even if you've cheated a little by leaving out some information so they don't get there too quickly. .
So, even though the story was heading to be Captain Adam being Monarch, they changed it due to leaks. Fine, I guess I could see that, but the idea you had, having it be Waverider all along, that might have been a twist that maybe could have worked, as long as they did it right. I certainly think it would have gone over better than Hawk being Monarch. However, when you said they changed it, because of the joke you told before, wondered if it was going to turn out to be Superman. 😂🤣 But really, I do agree, unlike some heel turns in wrestling, comic heroes turning heel never really goes over well with fans. Anyways, thank you, Linkara, and best of luck next week. From what I can find in a quick Google search, Secret Invasion doesn't sound like one that went over well either.
It could've never been Superman, except if Monarch return a good guy. Superman is evil is only a good idea in elseworlds XD
It would've been a real trip if Waverider realizes that time can't be changed in the way he thinks it can. He has to become Monarch, sending the younger version of himself back in time in order to stop Monarch and make the future better. Time is a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey stuff.
So who or whom were the guys that leaked the monarc identity back in the 90s?
@@krankarvolund7771 And even then, only in certain times (Hell, i found Red Son to be the ONLY time it was done well. To me, at least.
When I was reading Armageddon, I just came off of reading a lot of Grant Morrison. The thought that went through my head was that Monarch NOT a hero but in fact was an obscure supporting character in one book that hadn't seen the spotlight in years. I imagine that the majority of fans would have less than stellar opinions of this but fans of the particular title the character appeared in would be shocked, reading those same older titles with different eyes knowing that this c-list supporting character was capable of all this. That's kind of why I'm an odd man out amongst fans when it was revealed that Harold betrayed Batman in the Hush storyline, because I actually remember that character.
How I would have written Armageddon: Monarch is Pete Ross, former best friend of Superman. At the end of Armageddon, Monarch is 'gone' that the timeline he existed in is gone, but everyone is keenly aware of what Ross might become. It would also put everyone on edge 15 years later when Lex Luthor becomes president with Pete Ross as his vice.
Flashpoint feels like a stand-alone Flash story that was forced into being an event
I don't know how the Atom reveal would have played out, but your suggestion of having Monarch be a future wave rider would have been really cool. Having him see those dark futures and get caught up in wanting to stop them, only to remember that in all those futures, the heroes still fought no matter the cost, and choosing to put aside his fear and keep fighting too. Choosing to do the right thing and fight for freedom despite the uncertainty of the future, rather than giving into the false security and certainty of tyranny.
Not exactly the same thing but in Zero Hour, 2 years later from this Story Monarch becomes another super villain Extant by killing and stealing the powers of the Wave Rider of the then present of 1993 so he looks like just like Wave Rider without his mask. Comics.
The "fetus" thing might be intentional, as it's the birth (or rebirth) of Waverider.
What's more about the reveal is that in that Hawk & Dove annual their daughter ends up defeating Monarch and ending his fascist reign. It's like they found the least likely hero and thus used him just for their silly twist. Or maybe the writer found out what they wanted to do and this was his protest.
I think Captain Atom blaming himself was due to being forced out of the vision rather than Waverider ending it properly. Instead of remembering elements like Superman did he remembered the entire thing and was still reeling from what he had become in that alternate future before Monarch popped in.
Here's an idea for the end of the story: have Waverider, who grew up admiring heroes, lead the hero (in the original case Captain Atom) to avoid the path that turns him into Monarch. We know Waverider has hero potential because the story answers which hero rescues young Matt from the rubble, so it's possible that Waverider could actually redeem the hero before he goes full fascist. In the case of Hawk, reach him before killing Dove and show them how their daughter Unity stopped Monarch in their annual, proving that their time as the heroes of order and chaos had merit, so he avoids that path and has something new to overcome in his own book. Either would certainly be in line with how the DC universe worked at the time, a universe that had been based around heroism and aspiring to be better, while at the same time complete Waverider's own arc properly.
I think the ONLY time a hero became a villain and it was considered an improvement, was Jason Todd. And as you've stated, even HE had a redemption arc, deserved or not.
Bucky, too (admittedly, though, that's Marvel). Winter Soldier was compelling as a villain, but again, redemption arc.
@@RabblesTheBinx personally, I find Bucky's redemption to be much more interesting than him AS a villain. Him struggling with the suffering he wrought onto others. He was a VICTIM, not an actively evil person. Jason was just a dickhead (which is why I like him)
Ah, so first we had “Reveal that pissed people off,” and next week we’ll have “Damn Obvious Assault.”
Countdown? This entire event comic was just another tie in to Countdown?! Ahhh! Ahhhh! (Cue Combine Harvester)
*Me* *in* *the* *first* *half* *of* *this* *video* : I don’t see what the problem is this comic seems pretty good
*Me* *in* *the* *second* *half* *of* *this* *video* : Oh…
The Darkseid jokes section missed the fact he changed the color of his Omega Beams:
"Too much Pink energy is dangerous"
One of the worst things about the change is that in the Hawk and Dove tie in, their daughter in the future fights against Monarch, who briefly hits on her. Turns out Hank's real last is actually Targaryen
Nah. He's an otherdimensional reincarnation of Poseidon from Superman: Year One.
I just started laughing when you brought up the annual saying that Hawk and Dove couldn't be Monarch and then the forced twist. It was funny to me.
whats really funny is in Reading order Hawk and Dove is the third to last... meaning they changed the ending with one issue to go
Seeing Captain Atom fighting Monarch makes me think there could have been an interesting version of the story where Captain Atom stopped his future self and refused to become Monarch. Clearly that wasn't the plan though, with the difference just being who became a villain.
Part of me actually kinda wonders if that was the plan but then they had to go back on it, and what we got with Captain Atom was the "leftovers" of that idea.
The latest season of The Flash actually had its first five episodes loosely inspired by this, so that may have helped with the votes. Also, I would totally read an event comic called Secret Metal Armageddon II.
I just like it cuz it sounds like a japanese film subtitle like.. Godzilla vs Mecha-Ghidorah: Secret Metal Armageddon II.
Is the flash still going?
@@anjetto1 Yep.
And the season with... what his name, God of Speed, emo Flash... yeah, that's the same bad twist... *sigh*
@@Drake5607 season 7 from what i heard is them throwing things at the wall and see what sticks after they already reached what should have been either the end of the show, or passing of the torch to a new generation or at least go back to cheerful tone after surviving the supposedly set in stone finale: the whole, flash vanishes in crisis
season 8 for what it looks like, the writers finally had something and even then, they had to rely on eobard thawne again
12:14 That joke aged well considering we're gonna get Godzilla vs. Kong vs. Justice League.
I hope they make sure to mention Gorilla Grodd and Congorilla.
32:40 reminds me of the Futurama line "no fair. You change the outcome by measuring it"
In all fairness, I did like when Charles Barkley went mad with power after clearing his name and defeating Godzilla, and became the dark and edgy villain Charles Darkley.
The way Alex Hirsch handled the Gravity Falls fanbase figuring out the twist about the Author being Stan's long lost brother is basically this nonsense done right: He created a fake screenshot supposedly revealing another character to be the Author, staged a photo that looks like a covert leak, 'leaks' it online anonymously, pretends to be outraged at the leak ruining the twist, and all long enough before the actual reveal that it gives the fanbase time to go nuts about it and then look deeply at it and realise that it's fake, thus distracting them so that when the twist was revealed, it was less of a 'Oh please, I guessed that months ago!' moment, and more of an 'aha, I knew it!' moment.
Maybe the real Monarch was the friends we made along the way
I'll bet everything that the "Metal" part of this month is Dark Knights Metal or Death Metal. 😁
Or both since technically the two are connected as one big and long event comic!
Its going to be the former, he mentioned it on his website under "upcoming issues". Also it makes sense to try and do the main events before the sequels otherwise he would have to explain what was going on in the previous event just to make sense of what is happening in this (something that would add onto the video length and work he would do considering the build up of the two events).
Gotta love the small Tremors reference in the rant
Hawk stealing Monarch’s armor very much reminds me of that comic where Goofy steals a hat off of his own head from the future so he can have two hats, but then that hat gets stolen by Goody from the past, so he’s left with one hat and some sadness.
Reminds me of the Duck Dodgers episode where Daffy became a member of the Green Lantern Corps (I believe he took an outfit from the cleaners. It's been a VERY LONG TIME since I saw that)
10:38 I think I've been Pavolv'd. When I heard "they weren't perfect", my brain automatically followed it with Superboy Prime yelling "THEY WERE PERFECT ON MY EARTH!".
The bit about how fascism brings stagnation and discourages bravery and innovation was well done.
You said the decision to change writers was baffling. I did a quick check: Archie Goodwin was apparently dealing with cancer when this book was released. Maybe he had to drop out of the ending due to health issues?
That would make sense - didn't find that while doing research.
DC still should've made sure there was some communication between writers even if the main writer couldn't do anything.
The Church of the Algorithm officially certifies this video in the ones and zeroes of The Recommending Holiness.
Nothing like a little DC comic reviews to make the night shift flow smoothly.
Agreed!
You know all that talk about twists and DC really wanting one for this reminds me of something that happened in One Piece. I won't spoil it for folks who haven't read it, but apparently a fan was able to accurately predict the full backstory of a character thanks to clues left by Oda. When Oda found out about it, he didn't decide to change the whole story he'd spent time working on, he just kept it as is.
Kudos to Oda.
Which character was it?
It's the same for a My Hero Academia character, one whose reveal caused his name to trend on Twitter during the middle of the last presidential election. Pretty much everyone predicted who he really was for years since his introduction but Horikoshi thankfully kept that twist as is and pretty much nobody was disappointed when they were shown to be right.
Mind you, I wonder if a difference is that, unlike American comic writers, manga writers are consistently under a much more horrible time crunch and thus they're no going to add even MORE to their workload just to catch the audience in a momentary "Gotcha!".
@@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 I haven't seen GOT but from what I've heard about the final season it's a shame the network didn't have the same mentality.
that's becaue Oda is a good writer with editors and fans who trust him. DC however were not like shonen Jump and thus made a lot of random wild decisions ehre that hurt everything.
So with no prior knowledge of this story, I did try to guess based on your review who did it and at one point I thought it was Wave Rider as as a sort of "Iron Man" thing (the song not the character) someone who traveled trime for the future of mankind but ends up being the very thing he wants to stop. I also very much called that he saved himself as a kid as soon as the kid version showed up in the builiding. Anywho, Monarch killing Dove just to make himself evil is stupid esp when you tell us that Hawk should have been the 1 proven to not be the guy. Part one sounded neat but part two was definately a mess and damn if that doesn't itself ruin the story. I'd rather have the spoiler than a bad story.
Here's the thing: I would've been okay with the original plan of Captain Atom being the one who became Monarch... if it ended - either here or in a follow-up story - with Captain Atom confronting his evil future self in an epic final battle and proclaiming "You are *not* me, Monarch! *I* am not *you!* And I *never* will be!"
Basically what Hawk should've done in the position he was put in.
@@autobotstarscream765 Pretty much, yeah.
I kind of find it hilarious that Hawk's reaction to Monarch's identity is almost akin to an extremely fed up superhero fan. "REALLY? A TWIST THAT MAKES NO SENSE??? Damn comics, I hate comics, I hate what they've become, I HATE THEM SO MUCH I'M GONNA BE THE VERY THING I HATE."
Kinda meta as if they expected how annoyed fans were gonna be with the reveal.
5:15 Dude you channel Burt Gummer perfectly
Your slow approach towards the camera in the beginning was absolutely terrifying
From what I remember both Captain Atom and Hawk & Dove were already slated to be cancelled. That's why Hawk was the backup Monarch.Of course they ignored that by this point that Hawk had absorbed the Lord of Chaos who'd empowered him, so being a force for order made no sense.
While I understand why you had to get rid of Sacred Worlds by Blind Guardian as the title card theme. I honestly really miss it, it truly made every episode feel like just like the event comics themselves a sense of grandure, a build up to something major or cataclysmic with devastating consequences.
You know who could be a convincing evil turn for a story? Batman
I know that DC keeps pushing Batman as the "The greatest human ever who can stand among gods" but in multiple stories Batman himself has admited that he is unstable, he is a scared boy who uses a bat costume and gadgets to spread that fear to criminals. And he has said a few times that he doesnt kill because he doesnt know if he would ever stop after that.
Now we have seen several ideas for "Evil Batman" but if there is a Hero who has the knowledge, resources and intelligence to kill all super heroes is Batman. He even has the resources to create a Monarch armor that gives him the power to do so, and he has done it before like the League buster armor or the Hellbat suit (I know the League Helped him to do that one but he can still use it on his own).
Who is to say he cant use less than reputable sources to make a stronger version of it for frontal combat while using connections to slowly kill the other heroes, pull on the strings to make others do that.
Dont even have to go that far to imagine, the Batman who laughs did it. Though instead of corrupted by Joker im thinking something happens that Batman feels like taking over, like a crimelord Batman, his claws on everyone's pockets. Playing the Long game.
I think you're going to like when Metal is talked about
But that would be an interesting take on the character. Why do that when you can have ANOTHER Bat Joker ?
@@saintdane05 Yeah the Dark Metal characters where pretty cool ideas. That still is "What if Batman, but also X" wich is fun but i dont think we have yet seen a true "Evil Batman", where is just batman using his knowledge to outplay everyone else.
@@alionfish5 A shame because i like the Batman who laughs, his design and plan where really cool but he was a bit too much Joker, makes sense given the story but you know.
Would be cool to have an "Evil Batman" who is just Batman doing what he knows
@@krausercruz2780 that’s basically owlman then. In the crisis on two earths animated movie - when he finds out he’s basically just the cosmic result of a coin toss, he goes full mad supervillain and tries to wipe out all of reality since he believes nothing matters
“We’re not getting an Image Cinematic Universe featuring The Walking Dead, Spawn, and Invincible…” well… at least not YET.
Everyone’s two favorite movies FINALLY MEET!
People tend to love the exact opposite. Villains, becoming heroes.
11:35 Something Ironic I just remembered Darkseid can actually grow giant sized or at leave he can summon a giant avatar of himself so this might have happened at some point
Kaiju sized Darkseid Vs Godzilla over the last couch in the store: can someone make that happen please?
Also having a bball game with Charles Barkley coming in to chaos dunk to defeat darkseid
If only they had stuck to their guns and let Hawk and Dove die.
They could have written a new Hawk and Dove story with a new pair inspired by their tragedy.
they tried... It didn't work out
23:32 You know as someone who watched Legends of Tomorrow before learning about Matthew Ryder, learning about him really threw me for a loop. How did a superhero get adapted into a spaceship? Does this make Gideon Matthew's counterpart? She sure as heck isn't the counterpart of Gideon Gleet, James Gideon, Gideon Rivers, Commander Gideon or even Brian Gideon, that's for sure.
I'll tell you how, because the writers for that show clearly don't actually want to make a super hero show about traveling through time, they just want to make a less smart Doctor Who rip off and unfortunately the only way they could do that is by pigging backing off of Whatever brand the CW is forcing them to work with, in this case its DC characters.
Which weirdly enough, getting turned into a Space Ship is one of the least offensive things the CW have done to a comic book character. He could have been put into Riverdale instead.
@@rikowolfin4984 Excuse you, Legends is one of the few _good_ CW shows alongside Superman and Louis, Stargirl and earlier seasons of Flash and Supergirl (I actually haven't watched Arrow or Black Lighting so I can't say much about them).
Also even the Legends production crew hate Riverdale (a filming location for Supernatural was actually used in-universe in the episode after the one with the Riverdale reference) and they're not the only ones working at WB who've taken jabs at it. Peacemaker also had the title character reference the Riverdale versions of the Archie kids with some... Colorful word choice...
@@mattwo7 Oh I didn't say it was bad, well I mean it is bad in my opinion since it really should be its own original show as it literally doesn't care about the super hero part of the show when it keeps phasing out anyone with real super powers or strips them of it constantly.
But compared to literally every other CW show it's basically the best thing they have going simply because it doesn't care about being bad, it's just having fun with what they can do so it at least can be entertaining if you ignore a lot of the sloppy or terrible writing in the early seasons before they really said screw having any kind of serious plot.
The way I'd describe it is that it's so bad it loops right back around to being entertaining, something the other CW shows can't do because they focus too much on super serious drama storylines, where when something really dumb happens in say The Flash it stands out because of how serious the show tries to get while in Legends when something dumb happens its expected because it's setting up something even stupider like the punchline to a joke.
@@rikowolfin4984 None of these shows really have the proper budget to properly handle superhero stuff, I'm guessing this was especially weighty on Legends though. For example: Apparently the CGI they need for Nate's Steel power is super expensive in contrast to their budget, which makes it funny how he's one of the last original cast members in spite of the fact they had to _constantly_ write around him using his powers.
Now he's leaving the show but I guess they were so fed up with that that they decided to strip him of his powers first.
@@mattwo7 Ya it does take budget to show off super powers, but maybe they should have saved their budget they did spend on 5 other terrible super hero tv shows and focused on making the 1 super hero tv show good instead.
Or you know, actually write around your low budget by using heros with powers that they could have more easily used. It's better to create more shows like Superman and Lois where the powers aren't just forgotten about for the plot like with the Flash or Super Girl where they both forget they have super speed and let normal people just walk away from them or do normal human speed things.
I mean if they really wanted to keep his powers and lower the budget, they could have came up with some BS excuse of his steel power now being stuck under his skin and no one would have cared or questioned it, they already did a fairy godmother storyline and one of the main cast members suddenly turned out to be an alien monster multiple seasons later, dumber things have already happened.
Not like it matters though, The Arrow literally only uses bows and arrows and guns and yet the action is still bad and the characters forget that bows... aren't close ranged weapons. So it's less that they don't have the budget, and more so that the writers at CW aren't creative enough to write around their limitations, or really they couldn't write themselves out of a paper bag.
Darkseid: *Is giant*
DC Pants: *Darkened*
Now, Darkseid is giant!
That can't be good!!
Darkseid is… HUGE!
(Mst3k clip of “I’m huge”)
When rewatching/rereading a story with a twist, the surprise of the twist from the initial experience transforms into suspense from dramatic irony. This allows stories with a twist to hold-up on subsequent viewing/reading. But if the plot is entirely focused on the twist rather then the twist recontextualizing the plot it will fail to hold up much of the time.
And it has begun... Event Comics Month IV.
I know you mentioned Armageddon 2001 many times in this show but I still remember the three moments when you did.
1) Top 15 Worst Heroes Becoming Villains
2) Countdown
3) Battle for Bludhaven
And to think you would finally do this. Honestly, I didn't like the twist ending they did all cause the original ending was leaked. Honestly, that's what sucks about it. DC should have just carried on with the original plan. Instead, all that did was make things worse by TRYING to fix the mess. We know they did that not once but twice. The first was Extreme Justice, the second was Battle for Bludhaven. All I can say is this... you had one job, DC. One job.
I should mention that you literally made me laugh when I watched this. I laughed my ass off at some of the jokes and they were spot on. Your rants were justified because I like good stories but I also hate how they can be changed unexpectedly for one reason or another. It's wrong and ruins whatever good the story has.
Can't wait for Secret Invasion and I also can't wait for Civil War II aka Carol Danvers Can't Catch a Break. Yes, you have my permission to use that. As for Dark Knights: Metal, you'll need an Emergency Batman Protocol button. :)
The craziest thing is, with this set up, Monarch is actually the perfect opportunity for the writers to have their cake and eat it to. They can have the “hero turns evil” bit in a flash forward, maybe creep right up to the line with it, then Waverider’s intervention inspires them to overcome their own darkness and stay a hero. BUT, you can still have Monarch do his coming back from the future thing and try to re-establish his empire by himself. An evil future version of a hero would be a really interesting addition to a rogue’s gallery - a reminder of their potential to fall, who knows so much about them personally (but doesn’t want to kill them because they’re already lucky to not have been paradoxed out of existence).
There actually is a villain like that in comics. The Marvel superhero Adam Warlock's archnemesis is The Magus, a possible evil future version of himself.
35:09 A Neutron bomb!? "But why? Bracket is no mad dog killer he is after something."
Honestly, I figured the twist would be that the Monarch would be Matthew Ryder himself, from the future. The one person he didn't touch, he COULDN'T touch... was HIMSELF! (due to the comics code, I guess?)
8:28 Monarch being off center and throwing everything else off can pretty much sum up this whole thing.
Better subtitles for this month:
Civil Metal Invasion 2001
Dark Secret Armageddon War
And thus Event Comics Month IV begins!
So this is Event Comics Month 4Ever!
Goody! I can't wait for Linkara to cover "Damn Obvious Assault".
We once again return to the hydra that is Countdown. Review one comic related to it, two more shall take its place!