As an Indonesian Muslim Boy, I can relate to that message. I'm not even white and I get annoyed or utterly infuriated when shows like these are focusing more on the agenda rather than the world-building and STORY ELEMENTS. For once in their lives, can they just be true to the source material?! I understand why changes would be necessary when adapting books into movies, the Lord of the Rings Trilogy was one of the BEST examples of changes that were acceptable and done RIGHT, but if it damages the character's whole dynamic in the source material, the world-building or story as a whole... DON'T CHANGE IT!! IS THAT REALLY SO HARD?! If you alienate the fanbase of the original source materials, you're just gonna hurt yourself. LOOK AT ARCANE!! The changes that the show made to Victor (for example) actually worked so well that the character gained a fanbase on top of the ones he probably had from the LoL fans. Vi and Caitlyn's relationship works well for fans of the game because it's been hinted at in LoL and people either had an inkling or didn't see it at first but then the show actually depicted it and they probably realized it then (I was one of the people who wondered but never put it together). And it's all because the ones who adapted the series (Riot Games themselves with Fortiche doing the animation) cared for the characters and the original source. I'm so sorry for the rant but these things always boggles my mind because of how many times this has been done and resulted in failure. Whenever I want to watch fantasy/historical media, I often go for the old school stuff like BBC's Merlin, Lord of the Rings, or the early seasons of Game of Thrones, Gladiator, Mask/Legend of Zorro. Rarely do I enjoy rewatching the new movies/series nowadays.
You're not a boy, you're a MAN. The difference between boys/girls and men/women is that the former don't have themselves well put together, while the latter is well adjusted.
In this case... rather than being faithful to the source material I think a better solution would have been to get better source material. And no, LOTR is not a good example... come on, skateboarding on a shileld? Sliding on an elephant? Are those good changes? The actors and special effects are great in LOTR, the direction is hopelessly bad.
@@esoel I can see how some moments aren't as liked but Arwen taking Frodo to Rivendell was an amazing change. Instead of introducing another character (Glorfindel), you have an already existing character and have her fill in that role. Arwen got to have an awesome moment there.
Tolkien was a master artist in regards to his work. It's basically like a child coloring over the Mona Lisa and then telling you that you can't be upset about the destruction of a historical work of art.
“It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like.” - Lindsey Weber, E.P. Amazon's LOTR Series, Vanity Fair (Feb. 2022) "There are certainly themes Tolkien felt were important. We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. What we were trying to do was to analyse what was important to Tolkien and to try to honour that. In a way, were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves." - Peter Jackson, Interview with GreenCine (Dec. 2002) And this is why the movies will be loved forever and Amazon's garbage will be soon forgotten.
Don't forget what Amazon's garbage is trying to do. All these corporations and wokists are trying to ruin franchises so nobody has anywhere to escape to in trying to avoid their propaganda. We can't sit idly by and let this continue to get worse and worse.
@@joshuavidrine889 seriously man, i used to vehemently support trans and lgbt people and couldn't understand why people would ever be against stuff like that..... ENTER TWITTER..... oh i see why, you can't have a different opinion. you can't enjoy something else. you can't even HAVE your own thing, they NEED to be in it and not in a side role, they NEED the story to be changed to have them FRONT AND FKIN CENTER. it's literally disgusting and insane, idc if it is not the majority of them THE REST OF THEM NEED TO FKIN KEEP THEM IN CHECK. i am sooooo fkin tired of this.
Look at this, i found this yesterday... copy paste: "For all who are just now encountering this black elf/beardless black dwarf situation, and are wondering how such a thing could happen despite the wealth of representation opportunities offered by Tolkien: As it turns out, since Amazon's firing of Tom Shippey (quite possibly the worlds most respected Tolkien Scholar), the new "Tolkien Scholar" behind the Rings of Power, Mariana Rios Maldonado, is not a Tolkien scholar at all, but the "Diversity and Equality" Officer at the University of Glasgow, where she is also attending as a student. In her own words, she explains that she believes Tolkien's work is "problematic," and believes it is a favorite literary work of Neo-Fascist movements. In her arrogance, narcissism, and race obsession, she has deemed herself Tolkien's moral and intellectual superior, and is now working tirelessly to distort the Mythos of Arda into a modern allegory with fleeting relevance at best. "Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made." ... Action should be taken, for Frodo! Tolkien "Scholar" : www.gla.ac.uk/pgrs/marianariosmaldonado/ "
@@StefanHighlights-InquisitorOvh Again, proving that Diversity, Inclusion, and Equality (D.I.E.) for its own sake is a terrible, destructive thing. All these social-marxist groups are cancer.
Although I dislike the Hobbit trilogy Peter Jackson did as it has many flaws, I do love the scene with Galadriel silently walking through Dol Guldur, approaching the Orc and simply ordering him to move aside or be destroyed, the elegance and simple nature of her words speak volumes of power and when the Orc resists she vaporises his body with Nenya by evaporating the water inside the Orcs body returning him to dust. You don't need a sword to demonstrate power and intimidation, Cate Blanchetts Galadriel is almost impossible to replicate or even surpass. This show will ultimately fail from the lore breaking and identity politics festering at it's heart.
Galadriel in the 2nd age is quite different from the Galadriel of 3rd age. We do not have that much information about what Galadriel did in the 2nd age. There are snippets here and there but they are seperated by 100s of years. So, her being a commander/warrior is not far fetched as many seem to think.
@@dunhamb If we have no information about it, then it probably didn't happen as Tolkien's words are law in lore. Galadriel is still thousands of years old and the female Elves are usually depicted as healers. Galadriel has been in battles in Unfinished Tales but those was out of necessity to defend. She is never ever depicted as a Commander, more of a guardian or guide. Even so let's say Galadriel was a brash Elven warrior, she still wouldn't carry a sword, she is the daughter of Finarfin and sister to Finrod, not just your average Elf and that's even before she acquires Nenya.
@@dunhamb We do have enough to know she was only in one battle across her entire life and it was during the kinslaying to protect her family. Excluding that one event, she was either exploring unknown land or living in the depths of elven realms for her entire life.
That's certainly not Nenya's power that kills the orc, none of the three rings have that kind of power. Nenya's powers are of protection and preservation, not of control over water.
They NEVER cared about LOTR and REAL diversity, it's their OWN version of it. If they did, they can just simply made the show about the Easternlings and the Blue Wizards of Middle Earth. Ya know, the ACTUAL diverse people in that world. They were rarely mentioned, it would have been amazing to see what the east looks like. It's an open for character and world building in the LOTR lore and universe.
@@shawnm1902 yeah. even the known characters of that part of world has an unknown fate. anyone can even create and add their next journey. that's how vast and open are the south and east parts are. opportunity wasted.
Thats because they dont care about LOTR but only care about 'the message' and LOTR is popular with an excisting fanbase. Rather then invent a good new setting and tell their story in that world they rather take something excisting and popular and corrupt it to suit their ends...
Honestly, this would have been perfect form their point of view Not only is it diverse, it's also mostly off of Tolkien's map, so they could create whatever story they wanted without stepping on canon toes
"The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men." - The Fellowship of the Ring, "Many Meetings". Description of Elrond.
"The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them ..." - Frodo
The irony with what they've done with Galadriel is astounding. Even in the movies Elrond seems to be a far less powerful and regarded character then Galadriel. She was held in high reverence for her wisdom, power and grace by not just her kingdom, not just her race, but all races of middle earth including the wizards and old enemies like the Dwarfs and the Orcs. Also, as a great and powerful sorcerer, she is easily set up to be a 'Mary Sue' even in the Movie, but by forcing her into Elrond's roll as a soldier is a disgracing demotion - all because their bigoted wokeness demands that all 'traditional male roles' must be held by women even if it makes them drastically weaker and less valued.
That's the thing I'm most opposed to how they imply Galadriel wasn't already powerful and noble enough. Sure it was in a womenly way, but no one would say she wasn't one of the most powerful beings involved with the story of the Lord of the Rings. Not the Simirillion of cousre but the hobbit and lotr Galadriel was at the top of that hierarchy. now she has to be ANOTHER warrior in a world of warriors to make some bullshit point...they lost me and the source material imo
Yes, such a stupid waste. Everyone is worried about not having any wizards in the Second Age, but they have a thousands-year-old Elven sorceress, ready to go... And they turn her into (apparently) an impulsive, immature warrior princess. And Elrond is a politician with a lesbian haircut. WTF
There is reference to her being an athlete earlier in life, and of being a stubborn combatant (though without details in what capacity she participated in battle) so the warrior thing is not a great stretch pre-corruption. What gets me is how it's depicted
Galadriel is absurdly strong for a 3rd age Middle Earth Elf, but she is nowhere close to a Maiar like the wizards, Balrogs and Sauron. Gandalf never use more power than what he is allowed and that varies on the situation. This is why against the Balrog he actually fight for real, he is allowed to. This is also why his ''duel'' with the Witch King in the movies is non-sensical, the thing would not be a match for Gandalf, not even close. This is also in part why Saruman would be defeated, the Maiar and Valars, if they use their power for evil, slowly diminish in power, which is exactly why Sauron crafted the one ring, by linking is power to it, he avoided that issue. On a note, I am not sure, but I think Galadriel did actually fight in the first age. It is not what defines her, but I seem to remember she actually fought against the armies of Melkor at least once. Still Elrond is the warrior. On the note of absurdly powerfull characters, some are men. Turin, son of Hurin, is specifically refered to by Tolkien as the mightiest of all men, he is the greatest warrior man kind ever had and will ever have and this might be true for the Elves as well, he might be the greatest warrior amongst all non-divine being. The family of Turin tend to be that way as a whole, his father Hurin, fought against the Balrogs in an epic last stand and managed to strike the lord of the Balrogs 72 times, his counsin Tuor is the man who became immortal and whose line would become the Kings of Numenor (incidentally Elrond too) and Turin is also related to Beren, trully a mighty family.
@@nathanc939 I do not recall Galadriel fighting in the Silmarillion, but she was among the host that rejected the Valar, choosing to sail east to wrest the Silmarils from Melkor. She was certainly hotheaded, but the only elf maid specifically mentioned to combat Melkor was Luthien, who did so as a powerful spell caster. She used her magic to aid a human, Beren Erchamion in a raid on Melkor's stronghold. Together they managed to recover a Silmaril and it would be their descendants that would repent for the elves' arrogance and get the Valar's assistance in throwing down Melkor. Those descendants would become the Numenorians. Fun fact, Luthien was half elven, half Maiar. The only woman Tolkien wrote about being a warrior was Eowyn.
My take on that problem about changes in Tolkien universe: really, if you want to change this and that or represent this and that... WRITE YOUR OWN BOOK. Make your own setting. There you can have cultures where women fight, you can have black elves, green elves, blue elves and rainbow elves - and noone has the right to tell you a thing, because it is YOUR world, so YOU make the rules.
You guys can sound downright pathetic sometimes. Not every single time is a non white person cast in a role to "send a message". You ever stop to think that the castor director maybe just thinks the actor is a great fit for the role? Because that's also certainly possible.
@@SuperMurray2009 that's exactly right. And I have an example for this: we have "Shawshank Redemption" masterpiece, and we have Morgan Freeman playing the man who was Irish in the original. Was it because Freeman is black? No, it was because he is superb actor. But there was another thing: it didn't contradict the setting. The same thing would be "why don't we cast this great actress to "Save private Ryan" or "Name of the rose" - you may have the best in the world, but it is just wrong time and place.
@@SuperMurray2009 When people for warcraft lore, fight each other just for the eyes colores of elves, don't be surprising to see the same reaction about skin colore. Btw you even have the same problem with color skin orc ( green, brawn, red, grey etc). Same stuff for hair. Because yes, a lot of elements on the appearance must be taken into account to forge a coherent universe or at leat a more interesting universe. I don't know too much the lore of Lotr, but of what i remember you have black/brown skin color people in south countries. You should say the same if we make a white women to their chief without any explanation/context ? They know the lore, they know how it work, they know a lot of code to create an interesting universe or to go deeper in a universe that already exist. When you make these choice when you can choose anyone you want with some big budget, it's absolutly not because the "actor great fit for the role", it's either some pressure of your hierarchy or a personnal political choice ( and if that the case, assume it ) Recently you even have the same debate (even more vicious) about Uncharted and the last minute change to take Tom Holland You can even have a big discuss about " if it's political, create all new races/stories/coherence would not have made the series more qualitative and therefore allow the cause to gain credibility and give more respect to people who want to be more represented" Traduct with deepL
@@SuperMurray2009 The people making the changes already said they are doing it for political reasons, and funny how those changes always work in one direction, more importantly if you are ignorant of why certain things matter in the lore of LoTR then don't blabber nonsense, the Peter Jackson movies captured the looks and feel of each LoRT fantasy race correctly and in accordance to the books, if the creators of the show didn't like that they should have created their own damn story for the show with their own IP not bastardize someone else's work.
Part of what made Galadriel so great was we never actually get to see the extent of her power. It's clear that she is immensely powerful, old and wise. But you never know how much shes capable of. She never needed weapons or armor or military might to express her power. Her power is all together different which makes her that much better.
"The Message" doesn't see that as power. The only power they know is man's physical strength and thats why they plaster it to their woke female characters
That is an excellent point. What makes wise elder characters cool is the mystery behind them. I liked that Gandalf’s journey after falling in the Mines of Moria was minimal, not even once showing Eru Iluvatar revive him onscreen. Because you never explain the magic too much, or it will feel less magical and esoteric. Apply that to Galadriel, because her magical freak-out towards Frodo was sufficient to let me know she means business when she’s pushed. I didn’t need to see Galadriel kick a dog or slap Frodo to know she was being tempted by the dark power of the One Ring. I didn’t need to see her demonstrate any form of physical might to know how mighty she could possibly be (and maybe as a mere mortal I wouldn’t be able to comprehend her true power?).
I'm a blind person. Nobody looks like me or gives a crap about representation, and indeed when blind characters are written, they're usually pretty terrible, either not blind at all, or so helpless they're useless (Toth from Avatar the last airbender is about the only decent recent film character I can think of). Yet if you ask me what characters inspire me or who I identify with, I'll list you a bunch of people, none of whom are blind. Frodo from Lotr, Willow from Buffy the vampire slayer, Yanto jones from Torchwood, perin from wheel of time, Luke Skywalker from Starwars. It's their human nature and struggles that make me identify with them, not their gender, or skin colour or anything else. Personally, after the travesty of wheel of time, I am categorically not! watching Amazon's middle earth series. Tolkien is too special to me to want to see his work butchered by people who don't have a tenth of his dedication, creativity or empathy, and only care about their own egos!
My favourite movie about a blind person is an Australian film "The Proof" from 1991, with Hugo Weaving in the lead role. I so much empathise with the character (I'm just badly myopic) that it has a catharsis effect on me.
@@hyvakoira That's not one I've seen. Looking at the synopses on wikipedia, it sounds like an interesting exploration of knowledge, also one of the few examples of a work that doesn't show a blind person as asexual. On the other hand, it does sort of sound like the main characters' blindness is still the salient fact about him and his place in the story, and that he's more a tool of the exploration of the theme of truth, than a character with an arc. See my review of Caralin Ive's gilman's novel dark orbit which attempted to write a blind society and was guilty of the same thing: www.fantasybookreview.co.uk/Carolyn-Ives-Gilman/Dark-Orbit.html Again, can't speak definitively on the proof as it's not a film I've seen. What I would! love to see is more "characters who happen to be blind", IE characters for whom their blindness is only one of a number of character traits and characteristics, not the be all and end all; one reason why Toth is so awesome; even if she did fall into the "magic blind person", box on occasion, and if her powers were occasionally a wee bit inconsistant. to bring this back to the more general problem with representation, this is one thing which is irritating me increasingly about the current trend in adaptations, since it is a characters' identity, skin colour, gender, sexual preference which are always held as the most important facts about that characters, and more often than not how that character is portrayed. Myself, I'm a husband to a truly wonderful lady, an operatic tenor (well it's in the handle), Voracious reader and book reviewer, I have a phd in philosophy, I am five foot 10, moderately muscular, dark haired, Caucasian, English, an aspiring author and occasional poet, a gamer and indeed accessible games advocate, a dog lover, extreme Tolkein fan boy and card carrying whovian. All of these are facts about me aside from the fact that I am photonically disadvantaged.
@@darktenor4967 I loved the film for it's comment on friendship, loneliness and trust in people as a prerequisite for letting them into your life, and that's the main character's (and mine) biggest issue - how can you trust anyone if you can't trust your own eyes? Hugu Weaving's delivery is truly something. It's lovely to know you've achieved so much, and yes, it sucks when someone gets reduced to their skin colour, political views or disability. We all so much more than that, and it's things that we love and good at and ways in which we contribute to the society are what we will be remembered for.
@@hyvakoira fair enough. Again, it's difficult to comment on a film just from the synopses, and for most things that aren't clearly pushed by blatant agenda, I usually prefer to check them first myself. Obviously, there are major issues in portraying blind characters which unfortunately do come up on ocasion, usually by making a blind character either effectively not blind; the jordi la forge/dare devil problem, or by making them entirely incompetent, usually just existing as someone who is there simply for sentiment points, and for other members of the cast to "Do good to", to show how kind and compassionate they are. Again, just by writing a character who is blind rather than a "blind!" character, is usually all that's needed. Either way, thanks for the film recommendation.
You wanna know something weird? They're technically breaking their contract by doing this. Their contract outright said they can't change anything that Tolkein wrote, only fill in gaps. Then they went and changed stuff Tolkien wrote, such as making Elrond a politician rather than a healer and warrior and making Galadriel a general in an army that never existed.
from what I have also heard they have only rights to lord of the rings trilogy and to hobbit, nothing else so they can't even adapt silmarillion faithfully as they have no rights to its adaptation
@@joshuahorn4786 Incorrect, they have the rights to adapt the content within LotR and The Hobbit, and are basing their material entirely on the appendices of RotK. The show runners themselves as well as Shippey have both confirmed this
Amazon openly stated that: "We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books" and "We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit". The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit all take place mostly (like 95%) in the Third Age. This show is about the Second Age. If they wanted to follow the lore, they would've bought rights to The Silmarillion (the "main" Second Age book). They did not. They clearly have 0 respect for Tolkien and just want his name. Just FYI.
Honest opinion: No one is going to outdo Peter Jackson’s trilogy instead of watching Amazon’s fan fiction watch that or read the original books for goodness sakes
I tried to show my black friend the trailer but as soon as I said there were black elves and dwarf women with no beard she refused to even look at my phone she said " I don't to taint mind and memory with that garbage." By the way she's half way through the Silmarillion so she's particularly mad about lore changes now.
@@ChristmasLore Maybe calling you off as "FAT BLUE HAIRED ARMPIT HAM PLANET" XD Guess what, this Amazon thing has helped me a lot to red pilling more people every passing day. As George Orwell warned us, woke young females are the most loyal servants of Darkness just for likes.
Oh, so THAT'S who that was. Was hard to glean anything from the way it was cut. Plus I just couldn't do the Silmarillion. It's like reading the bible...
I've argued this point to some people. If your going to add people of color, why not explore and add characters from the easterlings or South of mordor. Even the Numinorians (probably spelled it wrong) colonized just south of mordor. We could have seen unexplored cultures and people's. But no, screw creativity.
@@SolitaryLark How they get to the point of pure evil would be interesting. And surely you could have people within that group who fought against that evil and you could show that even though they fail in the end. It doesn't need to be the main story going on, just one running parallel to the story of the rings corrupting different people over time and this was a group that gave into that corruption at the end. I think that would be a really interesting story.
@@SolitaryLark not entirely. The south of mordor was largely neutral until they got mistreated by the Numinorians and thats what turned alot of them to Sauron. And in expanded lore, the easterlings even have a resistance against sauron. (And even some possible evil dwarves). I would have loved to see a story explore those areas.
32:40 Thank you Oz, I am absolutely sick of being told we can’t possibly know what it will be like when we’ve had all the experience we need to pick out the warning signs a mile away. Frankly, even if it weren’t for the blatant political agenda, I’d still have been pessimistic about this from the beginning because it was obviously a top-down approach to production motivated by greed rather than being a passion project of true fans and artists. Just compare the LotR to the Hobbit, this show will compound that difference by ten (if we’re lucky).
Funny story from earlier today: I was sitting on the bed nursing my baby, watching UA-cam, when my husband came home from 24 hrs on the job. He was listening to something on his phone through earbuds. We were both watching this exact video, and that was just such a highlight to my day. I laughed so hard.
Shad, for Nick Fury, there was a black Nick in the comics, the Ultimates storyline (which a lot of the MCU is loosely tied to) and that version was actually based on Samuel L. Jackson's visage before they even had his permission. So casting him was actually casting the person who the character is actually based on.
It’s more than that. They used his likeness without permission in Ultimates. He’s a comics fan so he was cool with it-but said I get to play Nick if you make a movie. More than a decade later …
I care about Tolkien’s stories so much. I literally can’t comprehend how people are trying to defend “Rings Of Power”. It looks horrible. Black hobbits, female dwarves without beards, hobbits being important in the 2nd age, elves looking young, and forced foreign races (this could work).They care more about their stupid agenda than one of the greatest stories ever. Great channel btw
a black elve could work if its some group from a secluded sahel city or more tropical state (not dessert or savannah. thats to open/ barren for elven likings. thats more human territory). the elve would have long hair though. but amazons names the elf a grey elf. which is canonicaly wrong, as grey elves where extremely pale, not tan. and black dwarfs make no sense for a sunlight avoidant people. and a tolkien dwarf without a beard is bodily disabled.
@@Chrisspru ^^^^THIS!! If changes were going to be made, I would've at least been happy if they actually make sense to the world in the story. But doing things at random for the sake of "diversity" just damages the whole viewing experience. I will say that if the writing turns out to be good, then I can accept that but if it doesn't... that's another damaging point to the series.
@@Chrisspru The problem that the elves were created a certain way so I don't think beng "balck" as african can make sense, if you mean they are can be tan than I agree, but in that case they are will look like italians or spaniards not africans.
@@Chrisspru I thought they named him a SILVAN elf, i.e. a wood elf, rather than a SINDAR elf, i.e. a grey elf. Granted, I have not read all the promo material, just what a couple of Vanity Fair articles mentioned. As for the black Dwarf lady without a beard, she could have shaved it, since their good friends the Eregion elves are beardless and she is trying to make a fashion statement. It can be explained away (same with the short-haired elf). I think there is also a beardless (or near beardless) dwarf lady in the Hobbit movies, in the market of Dale. As for her skin color, make her a Blacklock dwarf from far away, a political marriage to the dwarven prince of the Longbeards, and explain it away that Aule just happened to use a darker stone* (whether deliberately to have his Children mimic the future Secondborn in skin colors or by accident). * Following the Elven legends that Dwarves are made from earth and stone. It is the violence done to the canonical characters' backgrounds and personalities that turns me off this show, and the timeline contraction to compress the story so that their normal human (and hobbit) characters would life through it all. What would have been so wrong to have timeskips between the seasons, and show THE REASON why the Numenoreans turned evil, i.e. their long but still mortal lifespan and fear of old age and dying?
@@varisugocsay1152 There is nothing mentioned of the elves' skin color in Silmarillion when they wake up at Cuivienen. Admittedly, I have not read all the histories of Middle-earth that have come out, so maybe in one of them Tolkien expressly says that all elves are of light skin. Anyway, based purely on Silmarillion, I would not have an issue if there is an offshoot of the Avari elves who live in the South and have a darker skin than their paler cousins in the northwestern Middle-earth. It is not as if the actor has a midnight black skin, either. Frankly, he would not look out of place in Spain or Italy. (He is Puerto Rican, by the way.)
Evil cannot create anything new, it can only corrupt and ruin what the forces of good have invented or created -J.R.R. Tolkien Stay on watch my friends
@@ChristmasLore The misquote is apparently from a translation of a translation. The Russian translations of Tolkien are varied (I blame the Soviets, probably maybe), and they took some liberties. So the ones quoting it in Russian were doing it as they remembered, and now everyone just prefers that version because of how it's more generalized.
30:49 actually, the exact quote is Frodo talking about Orcs: "The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them". The message is the same, tho.
Shad, Aragorn had a full length sword in the books by the time they left Rivendell. The only fight that would have happened before Narsil was reforged into Anduril would have been Weathertop, where he would have mainly used burning brands anyway, since the Nazgul don't like fire.
Yes! Diskuss the hell out of this! Cant wait for it! Im already massively pissed from the first photos and the teaser. And the comments of the showrunners. Time for some crusading!
@@ChristmasLore Thats not the point of crusade, duh. Plus, just cause your outnumbered doesn't mean that you lost already. The chance is there, so stinking fight for it, or bow out
Just want to say I really appreciate Oz because of his no BS attitude about everything. I love Shad don't get me wrong but Oz is unapologetic about what he thinks and it shows.
@@demoulius1529 It's refreshing, sometimes I feel like good old Shad tries to dress up his grievances in politeness, I can tell he's more discontented than he lets on which to me is just a result of him genuinely being a good hearted person and a bit of an optimist. Oz doesn't give two craps about that though and says what everyone thinks, albeit less articulate than Shad but definitely one hundred percent true. Oz has took an offensive stance against the tyranny in modern media and I just love how obvious he is about it. We need more people like that.
@@carlkenner4581 Shad does not virtue signal, shut the f up. He's just a normal dude. You clearly live you whole life in politics, that's not the way the real world works. I'm extremely political and conservative but you don't expect everyone to be completely the same to match your world view. Some things you agree with some things you don't and furthermore not everyone has full context about everything so naturally they're inclined to have differing or even fluctuating opinions at times, opinions you may not like. Grow Up. I've watched Oz specifically go from nonchalant and relatively unaware about some particular things to being absolutely fed up of left wing propaganda, he's definitely more aggressive than he used to be about it because they're more overt about it now than ever before.
"Treat people like people regardless of their skin color." Never have I ever heard anything so bigoted and hateful. Clearly the not racist thing is to judge primarily based on race. The world is actually just upside down.
I think your guys point about culture is good, and we need to see more of it. Because any more it seems like people only see "white culture" or "black culture", and don't comprehend how culturally diverse those groups of people can be, how someone from Australia, Germany, Russia, and the US can be vastly different culturally, or from Egypt, Nigeria, Ethiopia and the Congo. People are so obsessed with race that they're not only being racist, but incredibly culturalist as well; boiling thousands of cultures down into a small group of races, and saying "you're all the same because you look the same". Literally the mentality of Empires who committed actual genocide, and these people are trying to play the good guys Edit: Also, I wanted to say; about the discussion of female dwarves, the entire idea that Tolkien had from what I remember is that to outsiders you couldn't tell the difference between dwarf men and women. Dwarf women did occasionally venture outside to adventure, but they looked identical to the dwarf men to everyone else
I blame Americanization. There is no true singular “American” identity, so instead of taking the time to create one, it’s become far easier to devalue and destroy existing cultures of the immigrants who come here, and of the American-soil-born generations that follow. Ask any Spanish-speaking immigrant in a typical American school, and they’d usually say they were bullied for being foreign, for speaking a non-English language. Ask a Chinese-American student nowadays how they’re treated in a pandemic-stricken world that blames Chinese people for COVID, and they would often try to distance themselves from their roots to avoid harassment. And “white culture” is derived from European-descended people who are so far removed from their roots. Of course they wouldn’t know nor care enough about the difference between Anglo-Saxons, Franks, Celts, Germans, and Slavs. They didn’t grow up with such diversity in mind. It’s no wonder why these groups are lumped together monolithically. TL;DR: I think the US is a breeding ground for disrespect and irreverence towards cultures because it actively tries to erase cultural identities and reduce people to whatever “race” they belong to. Doesn’t help that we have job applications that always ask for race too.
It really depends where in the USA you talk about Some regions have a distinct identity beyond the US and even by state. Tell me a Texan is culturally American rather than a Texan American.
I don't understand how anyone can be represented by a dwarf or elf no matter what colour they are. Dwarves, Elves, and Hobbits are not races in the human sense of race (Chinese, Indian, African, Caucasian etc); they are separate species. It's as if they think a person can be represented on screen by a black fish or brown bear.
My biggest issue so far was the Vanity Fair article where they said they were going to write novel Tolkien didn't. The arrogance to think they could add to Tolkien's legacy is abhorrent. They are absolutely gonna Rafe this up.
I'm not an insider but I do have exp. with casting actors. In productions like this, the "higher ups" often employ professional psychologists. They have the psychologists study human faces. They invite a lot of people and show them videos of actors, photos of actors or have them sometimes meet the actors - and then the people must fill out a questionnaire regarding their thoughts and feelings about the actors. *Now here is the thing* : When it comes to "political" and "diverse" movies and TV shows, they cast for "impact" - meaning: They cast actors and actresses that will make an impact on you - subconsciously - if you just behold, look at the actor or actress in question. This can be great for marketing purposes - but this is NOT what they are going for. They want the OPPOSITE of an "easy on the eye" - they cast actors and actresses that cause a form of psychological trauma if you just look at them. In other words - and now I'm talking about the "dwarf queen" specifically - they cast her as an actress and did her make up and costume in a very specific way - in order to trigger people they perceive as "racists" - or in other words: The average white person. I am not kidding - they hired psychologists in order to have them find the most offensive looking actress and then make her look in a way that supports this offensive look - to make white people mad on a fundamental, psychological level. Why would they do this? Make of it what you will - I will just give you the facts and won't delve into the realm of "conspiracies" here.
They do this because they arent interested in succes or honoring the source material. They are only interested in Hollywood brownie points and pushing their agenda. Everything from swapping the roles Galadriel and Elrond have, the black Elf etc. The beardless dwarf was probably the biggest insult. People give 0 shits about the skin colour. It doesent make sense but they know that they have skin colour quotas. But the blatant disregard of the female dwarf look is an insult and a spit in the face. WHich is kind of ironic as well, as the crowd that generally thinks this is a good idea normally jump at a opportunity to put beards on woman....
after reading your complete comment im left with a strong feeling that you just described how prime evil works....Sauron is a clown compared to those that made this show
What your saying sounds so screwed up, But you know what. I wouldn't be surprised. People need to stop sending a "Message" and let people discover the explorer in themselves, Find the truth for themselves. I don't think they realize how racist they are being, Using subliminal messaging and forced diversity , Diversity is much needed but not at the cost of lore breaking and being racist. I don't think they realize they are behaving like Nazi's. lol
My favorite part of the Silmarillion was Galadriel teaming up with the Freefolk and climbing the Ice Wall. - Show writer In before Galadriel rides into war on a dragon.
I expect the plot for Gladerial will run along the lines of. She senses the evil and tells the arrogant and/or evil male elf and he’ll say she’s full of it. Then Gladerial will be like “ I’ll do it myself to prove my autonomy as a character”. Cue Gladerial free climbing up a mountain. You go girl!
Concerning Galadriel, they made her seem less powerful than the Jackson films or the book. Look at her, she was positively angelic until she showed her true power and she was utterly terrifying! These showrunners reduced her to a metal plated stronk she-hulk!!
Except Galadriel actually was a She-Hulk in Tolkein's original work. He explicitly describes her as being extremely tall and muscular and built like a man. This waifish, super feminine Galadriel is purely a creation of Peter Jackson's imagination.
Galadriel has this from Tolkien's work "and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will [...] Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses." Also The Lady Galadriel - "Lady of Light" - grandmother of Lady Arwen, was an Elven Queen of extraordinary beauty, with her timeless features and golden river of hair. "Galadriel was highly praised for her beauty, particularly that of her hair, which was a deep and radiant gold, shot with silver. It was said by the Elves of Tirion to have ensnared the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, Telperion and Laurelin, and possibly to have inspired the creation of the Silmarils by Fëanor. She was also the tallest of elf-women, standing at around 6 feet 4 inches, or 193 centimeters. Because of her wisdom and power, she had very important roles throughout the history of Middle-earth, especially during her time in Eregion and during the War of the Ring. She had a penchant for dressing in the purest white. She was known, especially in her younger days, as being quite prideful. However, by the end of the Third Age, that pride had been tempered a great deal by age."
@@georgewhitworth9742 that's the Galadriel Tolkien actually wrote - Tomboy Amazon large and of remarkable strength. Galadriel's incredible power in in the Third Age is partly due to the Elven Ring of Water, and the fact that she is a first age Noldor, cousin of Feanor, daughter of Finarfin. It does not get much more powerful than that with regard to bloodlines in Middleearth. But still a Maia (Gandalf) in disguise and a rebellious Maia (Sauron) and a broken Maia (the Balrog) heavily rely on physical weaponry while they have bodily form....
I am really glad you guys brought up the clear change to Galadriel's character into a warrior princess style. I am a huge LOTR lore fan and have read almost everything written on Middle-Earth (or at least own it). If you asked me who was the most powerful person in all of Middle-Earth (not counting Maiar or Valar) I would always say Galadriel. In the lore, she totally trashed Dol Guldor with her ring of power Nenya by using it to cleanse the evil from the fortress during the War of the Ring. Even though she wasn't a warrior, she was the most single powerful person in Middle-Earth. Her word meant more in a discussion than even Saruman or Gandalf's. I find it ironic that she is the strongest female in Tolkien, but they have to change her to make her more masculine to fit their agenda. What a waste of her brilliance. Thanks for pointing out that change Shad, now I'm even more upset with this show. Keep it up Knights Watch!
Woke culture regards women as better than men, but also requires that those “better” women just be men with breasts. And now, the type of woman they like most is simply a man who identifies as a woman. Woke culture is as sexist and anti-women as they claim their critics to be.
oh wait She was free-spirited, and during her time in Aman had many dreams of wide unexplored lands. In her youth, she was very willful and of an "Amazon" disposition ; and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats.[21] = ↑ 21.0 21.1 21.2 J.R.R. Tolkien; Humphrey Carpenter, Christopher Tolkien (eds.), The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 348, (dated 6 March 1973), p. 428 Who cares for the original material or checking whether one's vision is correct ? seems a fighting Galdriel was very much what Tolkien imagined for Galadirels younger years also : At the time of her birth, Finarfin named his only daughter Artanis. Her father-name meant "Noble Woman" in Quenya, from arta + nís.[6] Due to Artanis's height and her great strength of body and will, Eärwen chose the Quenya name *Nerwen, meaning "man-maiden".*[7] Alatáriel was the Telerin name given to Galadriel by Celeborn, meaning "Maiden Crowned with Radiant Garland", which referred to her hair.[6] all quotes from tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Galadriel Sounds rather like a warrior to me - she may have softened her martial ambitions after some millenia had passed ( I mean she was born in Valinor before the Noldor even left in the first age ) Galadriel in LoTR and the books is Galadriel a few thousand years AFTER this. Changes can happen =D
the way I see the beard thing: yes, we're used to human women being beardless. but dwarves are not only a different race but a completely different species to the humans. As such, while it would be weird to see a dwarven woman with a beard from a human perspective, that feeling was also felt by humans that were meeting dwarven women for the first time, so that weirdness would actually be a good thing.
“No, Bilbo wasn’t the first Hobbit to leave the Shire, this girl was.” “No, Elrond wasn’t at the battle of Mordor, it was Galadriel.” “No, Khazad Dum didn’t fall because the dwarves explored too far, it’s because they didn’t listen to this queen!”
I enjoyed those Conan movies from the 80s that featured warrior women and a diverse cast. That was ok because it reflected the world that Robert E Howard created. This Amazon show isn’t authentic to Tolkien and is just another example of people in Hollywood forcing their politics onto the public.
I love the anime 'Ghost in the Shell', a story set in Japan, written by Japanese authors, but so universally appealing that we made the movie in America and the show's aesthetic is ingrained in the Cyberpunk genre.
I wish they would also acknowledge that these elves are already almost 1000 years old. They should be intelligent and wise after that amount of time. It is interesting that they are giving the elves a VERY human emotional attitude and immaturity. This is where the character descriptions like Galadriel “as angry and brash as she is clever”. Please find this in Tolkien’s works and explain to me why an elf of her stature would ever be like this. She is in many ways a “perfect” elf that many elves (and fans) idolize. Her words are more powerful than any armor or sword. Remember when she said no to Feanor when he asked for her hair? That’s real power. It’s just sad to see some iconic characters be treated in such a way. Tolkien put the work in (literally a lifetime) don’t waste your time on a new story.
@@joshuahorn4786 She's also married and has an adult daughter named Celebrian by this point. Now if that was Celebrian instead of Galadriel at least that would be a better fit. Any idea if they bothered to research Middle Earth before starting this?
@@joshuahorn4786 So... why didn't they just buy the right to a D&D tv series instead? They could have made up anything they wanted even base it on the 80's animated series and it wouldn't have been this bad?
@@Darkwintre I agree, but that would also involve them having both and idea of their own, as well as an imagination. At this point I doubt anyone at Amazon, Disney, or Netflix have any form of creativity at all.
Something I would love to see is a discussion of this and the wheel of time show between Shad and Daniel Greene. Both are big UA-camrs, authors, and probably very different in political outlooks. Both are down to earth enough to have a good productive discussion that would be interesting and informative to watch.
I don't like beards on women either but since they're not even supposed to be identifiably different from the male dwarves the correct answer is to cast bearded males for all dwarven roles, and if possible avoid referring to any as specifically female.
Well Tolkien himself wasn't consistent with this. Generally dwarven women should have beards, but then Numenorean royalty like Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir and Isildur should not have them.
That’s actually a really great point that Shad makes in the beginning. If you can’t find something to identify with the human on screen simply because they don’t look like you… that is blatantly racist.
another thing is if you feel the need to 'represent' an ethnic group, just because you feel like they are too poor on their own to get representation, they you are protectively racist towards that group. If you weren't you wouldnt feel the need to insert them as tokens.
I think Shad may have a bad definition of racism. A racist is someone who believes their own family background to be inherently superior to other family backgrounds and/or believes that certain backgrounds are inferior. Noticing differences between different groups and having difficulty relating to them may be ignorant or uninformed but it's not racism.
"Το κακό δεν μπορεί να δημιουργήσει τίποτα καινούργιο, μπορεί μόνο να διαφθείρει και να καταστρέψει αυτά που οι καλές δυνάμεις έχουν εφεύρει ή κατασκευάσει." -J.R.R. Tolkien
The thing that gets me, what the hell would Galadriel need a sword for? Your told that Sauron's entire host from Mirkwood couldn't' enter Lorien? why, Galadriel's elven ring! When you've got the power to literally stop time and potentially take on Sauron himself, why the hell would you need a pointy piece of metal? Anyone attacks Galadriel with a sword, she'd just tell them to drop it, jedi style and they'd have no choice! Tolkien wrote some pretty kickass powerful women, some like Eowin were warriors, but not all were, anymore than all his powerful male characters were warriors, look at Saruman. but of course, the idea of power existing through force, wisdom and personality rather than martial prowess would require some actual subtlety.
This just isn't Tolkien. Battles are fought with swords. Galadriel is a physical warrior. There are several reasons to criticise the show, but Galadriel wielding a sword is just not one of them. Feanor the most powerful and the great elf wields a sword. Thingol in early versions the 2nd most powerful elf after the death of Luthien and Feanor, gets killed by a group of dwarves. Beren with no magic beats up powerful Elven Lords. As for the defence of Lothlorien there is an army fighting as well. Elrond does a similar thing in the Second Age, but he too requires an actual army. By the Third Age Elrond and Galadriel both seem to have stopped directly leading armies, but it is faithful to the lore to have them do so before.
@@twilightsuzuka6252 Yep its ironic thst people complaining about the use of a sword never complained about Gandalf and Elrond. Tolkien just does not have this modern fantasy category of 'mage.'
If I was VERY generous, I could justify Galadriel in armor: 1) she is comparatively younger and full of hope of building a kingdom in Middle Earth, not the wise we know from the LOTR. 2) she is travelling through The Helcaraxe after the killing of her father and all the mess of the destruction of The Trees and the stealing of the Silmarils The problem is her climbing the glacier alone with a dagger. She was with the other Noldors. So many, when they arrived in Middle Earth, they moved the balance of power in favor of the Elves.
I see a problem even with both of those reasons tho. 1) She's younger, but not like, half her age in LOTR younger. She still had lived for several thousand years in the years of the two trees. Even at that time, I'm pretty sure she's described as wise (don't quote me for this one tho). Even if she wasn't, Melian's teachings in the first age, and the failures of her kin in general, would definitely make her wise. The fact that she survived that age, where so many powerful, noble heroes died, I think is testament to how good she is. 2) All of the events there happened before or at the beginning of the first age, plus her father wasn't killed or have killed anyone. She's the daughter of Finarfin, while Fëanor, her uncle, is the one who led the first kinslaying. The second age begins in a peaceful note, with Morgoth defeated and his forces annihilated. At the second age, she is a powerful sorceress, not a frontline soldier. And yeah, the climbing glacier thing is just next level wrong. The only glacier present in the second age is in forodwaith, where theres absolutely NO elven civilization, or any civilization, if we're going straight by the texts. There's only dragons there, and I don't even think they're there before the third age.
A while back, a TV series about Troy came out and cast a black man as Zeus. When people objected, the defense was that Zeus is a Greek god, therefore a shapeshifter. If he wants to present as a black man, he can. However, when Gods of Egypt came out and cast white actors as Egyptian gods, the accusations of racism were everywhere. Apparently, it's okay for Greek gods to be black, but you'd better not change Egyptian gods to white.
Galadriel ice climbing in plate/mail armour is beyond absurd! I've gone climbing with folks that literally count the ounces of their gear, to the extent that they cut off zipper pull tabs to save weight.
well "elves are special" in the books already - Legolas is walking "on" the snow, while everyone is hip deep; Aragorn and Boromir as well as Gimli waltz around in chain or plate ?
@@birdlaw1019 your elves might not, Tolkien's Noldor where smiths and supreme skilled with weapons. Galadriel's ("the man-maiden of amazon disposition ) uncle Fingolfin was the only "mortal" being to wound Morgoth ( a Valar, e.g. a vast and godlike being of Tolkien's universe ) in single combat..., ... so basically, the Noldor of the First Age and the entire House of Finwe (aka Galadriel's Grandfather ) probably do not stick to RL world rules and physical laws. this is a Fantasy. Just witness Legolas walking on snow while everyone else sinks in, Glorfindel and Elrond working magic, or Feanor creating gems full of the light of the Two Trees , one of which became a Star in Middlearth's Sky.
MAN! i had 100% respect for you. but now hearing everything u said about the new series and about woke people. my respect for you went from 100% to 1000000%!! its over 9000!!!! man you are so right, and its so obvious what these "woke" people are trying to do and thank you for saying the truth!
The really puzzling thing is that the same company did an absolutely Sterling job of making Reacher from the book Killing Floor, no one with an ounce of sense and honesty would argue that Jack Reacher is an undeniable example of conventional masculinity.
The whole "argument" at the beginning is absurd. I agree with OZ on that. You aren't convincing these people by pointing out their hypocracy because they don't care. I always thought the point of stories was to make us empathize with people we might not have otherwise. When I watch "Toy Story" I can't really see myself in any of those characters, physically. But the story is told well enough that I can care about the characters. Hell, "Boyz N the Hood" was a really good, shocking movie to me. Can I empathize in some way with these characters that are vastly different from me (thankfully, IMO, as I would not be able to live in that environment)? Yes. Odd that.
The point of the argument is NOT to change the minds of people who are essentially ideologues, but to change the mind of people who have not yet decided.
@@ChristmasLore Tolkien had female heroes, even ones who went to battle and fought. Tolkien had people of other colors than white. The show creators weren't interested in going with the flow of Tolkiens established lore, they wanted to directly oppose it (probably to rile people up and get free advertisement) instead of using what Tolkien already had.
@@ChristmasLoredoes it have to be an equal 1:1 ratio men and women heroes? Why? Also the Southrons and Easterlings who fought for Sauron were a small fraction of the people who were corrupted by the cult of Sauron that the two blue wizards went south to combat against. That could of been a great story to tell, but instead they wanted to pave over established lore.
@@ChristmasLore Also I'm not assuming bad intent, it seems to be a trend that show creators want to get free publicity by riling up fans. Ghostbusters did the same thing to get publicity.
@@ChristmasLore You’re being too hand wavy about this. The artistic vision of creators must be upheld. Any who go against this is frankly an enemy of the arts, no matter what they might think. I honestly don’t care what the creator’s intentions are; good or ill, this is intentionality going against established lore when they could of still done things in a way that matched with the lore and would probably be more interesting for it. Having a diverse cast it not i inherently a benefit to a story or even a moral good in itself. But that’s beside the point. Nobody has issue with diverse casts in this day and age, mainstream culture Hollywood has accepted it, this is undeniable. The issues only arises when they come for established settings and IPs instead of simply making up new stories. Heck most people are willing to forgive race/gender bending in a setting that makes sense. But race is specifically focused on in the lore of this setting; if you actually read it and the intent behind the story was to create an Anglo-Saxon mythology for the British people. To try to put that on the same level as dragons and unicorns is being at best intentionally bullheaded.
17:00 When they announced Idris Elba as Heimdall in Thor everyone started talking about how terrible it was to cast a black person as a white Scandinavian god... until actual pictures of him in his gear came out and people were like "Oh wow that is freakin' cool. If anything once the images of the Rings of Power cast in their gear came out the complaints INCREASED and are still going because they look like LARPers...
@@TheAchilles26 Yes but it was still someone changing the skin color of a character. There were a lot of complaints about it until they saw him in the suit and said he looked cool. Nowadays most people actually really like his version of Heimdall. Its like showing a quality attempt at a character made the difference between people being angry at what actor was playing a character and not.
All of my DnD dwarves I've ever played have always commented on the size of the beard on a female Dwarf they've come across. It's become a "huge tracks of land" running joke in my playgroup. I don't have to find bearded women attractive. I doubt many people do. It's just a little part of the world. I force the cannon into my DnD games to make the worlds more fantastical. Sure, DM might not always appreciate it, but it's there.
Dnd dwarves differ abit from LOTR dwarves, they arent dipected with beards. That said if you want to do that, go for it. Dnd is you (and your fellow players) their party. If you guys think bearded dwarf woman should be canon then it shall be so!
@@demoulius1529 the other players don't really know better, but the DM knows DnD Dwarven women don't have beards. I just push the cannon for funsies and it works.
I remember when I first watched the Fellowship of the Ring, I was quite upset that not everything was in the movie, like the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil, the wights on the way to the prancing pony and the swords the hobbits got, stuff like that. Then I watched it a second time, became more relaxed about the stuff I was missing, and the 3rd time I watched it, I simply watched and enjoyed the movie. Point is, even though I was missing quite a lot, what is THERE is an awesome adaptation of the books. Arwens intro, the skateboarding on a shield and the Oliphaunt that only counts as one are a bit silly, but the latter two function to show the friendship between an elf and dwarf growing, while Arwens intro functions not only to introduce her, but the elves as a whole. Could it have been done better? Prolly. Does it need to? Not for me at least. Looking at the "Rings of Power", it seems clear the creators do not understand the world they're seeking to recreate, they just read stuff and thought: "Oh, that might look cool, let's add that to OUR story that WE want to tell, with OUR characters" and they simply ignore everything else Tolkien created. They're just as self-absorbed and high on their farts as the rest of Hollywood. It will be shit.
“There are wonders in our world beyond our imagination “ There its fixed. Reason the writers didn’t think of that word is because they have no imagination.
I'm not sure if I want any Cosmere work to be adapted to live action anymore in the foreseeable future. At first I thought Stormlight would be perfect with its diverse ethnicities where white people are almost non-existent and there is only one prominent character of that nation, but then remembered the quote about evil and the companies that have the budget to do a proper adaptation would amp up the wokeness to the max, so I'd rather not see that.
That shot from the trailer with whom we presume to be Galadriel leading a cavalry charge, reminds me a lot of how Brienne of Tarth is described in the Song of Ice and Fire books.
Diversity is death for creatives. I write gays, women, and various cultures into my books/stories because the characters are good (because I wrote them). I don't put them in to fill a quota. Ruxi isn't gay because she needs to fill a quota, she's gay because she likes nice soft women over the ripped, massive, nasty gladiators she grew up around.
Diversity as an accidental result is okay, yet it always is an end, no matter the means. Inclusivity always implies picking people based on tokens and not talent. Wonder what the mindset of someone hired to further diversity and to be inclusive is, I'd find it rather insulting.
Shad is referring to Fintrid (the character that calls all elves women) btw . Damn I miss curse of silverthorn . We so need a sequel of that . It was so good .
To answer you, Oz, we Americans are the Giant Eagles. We do our thing, we don't like being interfered with, and we swoop in at the last moment to secure victory and steal glory.
24:20 Changing Nick Fury worked so well partially because he was already repurposed in the source material so much that he might as well be a new character. If he was not going to have his back story as WW2 battle commander Sergeant Fury, leader of the Howling Commandoes, he might as well be a whole other person which is what they went for first in Ultimate Marvel Comics then the MCU.
A quote that comes to mind is: " I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character." Martin Luther King, Jr. Is it really so hard to treat others as you would want to be treated?
What did Tolkien say about canon? Letter 210 from Tolkien “The canons of narrative in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.”
Several thoughts for the boys of the Watch: first, I need to hear Oz talking about the leaked casting requirements for Amazon that say that a minimum half of casting must be female and half must be poc, which means best case scenario in any given Amazon property only one in four characters can be a white male. That’s why all these shows are coming out looking like the same thing: they’re written from diverse casting before anything else, story included. Second, as for the hypocrisy around saying things like “Black Panther is diverse,” in the liberal definition diversity simply means non-white, once looking through that lens everything starts making perfect sense. Thirdly, if you want an excellent, manly, 80’s style action hero show from Amazon, watch the new Reacher show. It’s shockingly good, and everyone is raving about it. Little to no woke stuff at all, strong male hero archetype front and center, 11/10 recommend watching.
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion
This is what I was waiting for. Can't wait to hear what you all think. Especially OZ given how on point he is about the culture war (ego feeding moment ;) )
So that talk at the beginning reminded me of the time I watched Lovecraft Country. In terms of Lovecraftian horror it was actually *really* good. The fact all the main characters were all black didn't bother me at all. The themes of racial tension and everything were fitting to the time period. Where I had a problem was the blatant black and white portrayal of white people. I did not see a *single* white character in that show that *wasn't* racist. It's okay to have racist white characters, but when you imply *all* white people are racist it is both unrealistic and socially harmful. I'll be honest, I enjoyed that show and I enjoyed the main characters, but it was clear they had a very black and white view of things.
That sounds like eating an apple with a worm in it. Everything about the fruit is perfectly good and yet there is this malicious entity that has been inserted into it that is consuming the material for its own benefit. And you could eat around the worm and enjoy the apple but why bother when you know that it's been tainted by this ugly little thing?
@@wolfdemexico Yeah, it really was kinda like that. Like, the first couple of episodes it was tolerable because it felt within reason, but it soon became clear that, as far as the creators of the show were concerned, being white made you racist, which kinda soured the show as a whole.
the funny thing is, this isnt lord of the rings, the showrunners said as much. they dont have the rights to the silmarilion (the book that pictures the times this show plays in), they have the appendixes, lotr, the hobbit, thats it. so they can use galadriel, elrond, but no silmarilion characters and also not the story of silmarilion, so they are making it up as they go. so the whole thing has lotr characters and the lotr name, but it isnt lotr, its a completly new story. and before someone jumps on me, thats not a defence, more an attack, because if you dont have the rights, dont make it.
Shad, never underestimate the Sonic fanfiction. There's always a Sonic fanfiction on EVERYTHING. I won't be surprised if there's a Shad fanfiction with Sonic.
Love Arch. He probably should've thought through some of the things he's posted and said, as they are the kind of thing that you save for people you know well, but he's a decent man all things considered.
As an Indonesian Muslim Boy, I can relate to that message. I'm not even white and I get annoyed or utterly infuriated when shows like these are focusing more on the agenda rather than the world-building and STORY ELEMENTS. For once in their lives, can they just be true to the source material?!
I understand why changes would be necessary when adapting books into movies, the Lord of the Rings Trilogy was one of the BEST examples of changes that were acceptable and done RIGHT, but if it damages the character's whole dynamic in the source material, the world-building or story as a whole... DON'T CHANGE IT!! IS THAT REALLY SO HARD?!
If you alienate the fanbase of the original source materials, you're just gonna hurt yourself. LOOK AT ARCANE!! The changes that the show made to Victor (for example) actually worked so well that the character gained a fanbase on top of the ones he probably had from the LoL fans. Vi and Caitlyn's relationship works well for fans of the game because it's been hinted at in LoL and people either had an inkling or didn't see it at first but then the show actually depicted it and they probably realized it then (I was one of the people who wondered but never put it together). And it's all because the ones who adapted the series (Riot Games themselves with Fortiche doing the animation) cared for the characters and the original source.
I'm so sorry for the rant but these things always boggles my mind because of how many times this has been done and resulted in failure. Whenever I want to watch fantasy/historical media, I often go for the old school stuff like BBC's Merlin, Lord of the Rings, or the early seasons of Game of Thrones, Gladiator, Mask/Legend of Zorro. Rarely do I enjoy rewatching the new movies/series nowadays.
Mantap bang kamu B A S E D
You're not a boy, you're a MAN.
The difference between boys/girls and men/women is that the former don't have themselves well put together, while the latter is well adjusted.
In this case... rather than being faithful to the source material I think a better solution would have been to get better source material. And no, LOTR is not a good example... come on, skateboarding on a shileld? Sliding on an elephant? Are those good changes? The actors and special effects are great in LOTR, the direction is hopelessly bad.
@@esoel I can see how some moments aren't as liked but Arwen taking Frodo to Rivendell was an amazing change. Instead of introducing another character (Glorfindel), you have an already existing character and have her fill in that role. Arwen got to have an awesome moment there.
@@JMObyx Maybe he's 14, therefore, boy. lol
Honestly. This whole "you're a man not a boy", is just silly. Just semantics.
Tolkien was a master artist in regards to his work. It's basically like a child coloring over the Mona Lisa and then telling you that you can't be upset about the destruction of a historical work of art.
i literally never have used this word before cause it's usually stupid but it's hard to deny it's existence at this point...... fucking woke people
Not just you can’t be upset your racist or sexist it’s literally insane to destroy anyone who disagrees with inclusivity in the name of inclusion
The books still exist.
“It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like.” - Lindsey Weber, E.P. Amazon's LOTR Series, Vanity Fair (Feb. 2022)
"There are certainly themes Tolkien felt were important. We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. What we were trying to do was to analyse what was important to Tolkien and to try to honour that. In a way, were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves." - Peter Jackson, Interview with GreenCine (Dec. 2002)
And this is why the movies will be loved forever and Amazon's garbage will be soon forgotten.
Should have been: “It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what Tolkien's world actually looks like.”
Don't forget what Amazon's garbage is trying to do. All these corporations and wokists are trying to ruin franchises so nobody has anywhere to escape to in trying to avoid their propaganda. We can't sit idly by and let this continue to get worse and worse.
@@joshuavidrine889 Correct. They want to corrupt everything so there is nothing left that doesn't contain "The Message".
Certainly sounds nothing at all like Goebbels’ methodology does it? Next they send people by your home to make sure you are tuning in…
@@joshuavidrine889 seriously man, i used to vehemently support trans and lgbt people and couldn't understand why people would ever be against stuff like that..... ENTER TWITTER..... oh i see why, you can't have a different opinion. you can't enjoy something else. you can't even HAVE your own thing, they NEED to be in it and not in a side role, they NEED the story to be changed to have them FRONT AND FKIN CENTER. it's literally disgusting and insane, idc if it is not the majority of them THE REST OF THEM NEED TO FKIN KEEP THEM IN CHECK. i am sooooo fkin tired of this.
Look at this, i found this yesterday... copy paste:
"For all who are just now encountering this black elf/beardless black dwarf situation, and are wondering how such a thing could happen despite the wealth of representation opportunities offered by Tolkien:
As it turns out, since Amazon's firing of Tom Shippey (quite possibly the worlds most respected Tolkien Scholar), the new "Tolkien Scholar" behind the Rings of Power, Mariana Rios Maldonado, is not a Tolkien scholar at all, but the "Diversity and Equality" Officer at the University of Glasgow, where she is also attending as a student.
In her own words, she explains that she believes Tolkien's work is "problematic," and believes it is a favorite literary work of Neo-Fascist movements. In her arrogance, narcissism, and race obsession, she has deemed herself Tolkien's moral and intellectual superior, and is now working tirelessly to distort the Mythos of Arda into a modern allegory with fleeting relevance at best.
"Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made." ...
Action should be taken, for Frodo!
Tolkien "Scholar" :
www.gla.ac.uk/pgrs/marianariosmaldonado/ "
I had heard that there had been replacements after Christopher Tolkien died, but I didn't know the exact names. This is troubling.
@@demetriosstratis321 as soon as he died, they fired Shippey and presumabely added this feminist lmao, what a joke.
@@StefanHighlights-InquisitorOvh Again, proving that Diversity, Inclusion, and Equality (D.I.E.) for its own sake is a terrible, destructive thing. All these social-marxist groups are cancer.
wow good link Stephan, I didn't have time to read it all yet. Good find
Good thing what we need to do is super easy, don't pay for amazon's shit.
Although I dislike the Hobbit trilogy Peter Jackson did as it has many flaws, I do love the scene with Galadriel silently walking through Dol Guldur, approaching the Orc and simply ordering him to move aside or be destroyed, the elegance and simple nature of her words speak volumes of power and when the Orc resists she vaporises his body with Nenya by evaporating the water inside the Orcs body returning him to dust. You don't need a sword to demonstrate power and intimidation, Cate Blanchetts Galadriel is almost impossible to replicate or even surpass.
This show will ultimately fail from the lore breaking and identity politics festering at it's heart.
Galadriel in the 2nd age is quite different from the Galadriel of 3rd age. We do not have that much information about what Galadriel did in the 2nd age. There are snippets here and there but they are seperated by 100s of years. So, her being a commander/warrior is not far fetched as many seem to think.
@@dunhamb If we have no information about it, then it probably didn't happen as Tolkien's words are law in lore. Galadriel is still thousands of years old and the female Elves are usually depicted as healers. Galadriel has been in battles in Unfinished Tales but those was out of necessity to defend. She is never ever depicted as a Commander, more of a guardian or guide. Even so let's say Galadriel was a brash Elven warrior, she still wouldn't carry a sword, she is the daughter of Finarfin and sister to Finrod, not just your average Elf and that's even before she acquires Nenya.
@@dunhamb We do have enough to know she was only in one battle across her entire life and it was during the kinslaying to protect her family. Excluding that one event, she was either exploring unknown land or living in the depths of elven realms for her entire life.
That's certainly not Nenya's power that kills the orc, none of the three rings have that kind of power. Nenya's powers are of protection and preservation, not of control over water.
@@Tadamichi666
She is 7 feet tall in the lore.
They NEVER cared about LOTR and REAL diversity, it's their OWN version of it. If they did, they can just simply made the show about the Easternlings and the Blue Wizards of Middle Earth. Ya know, the ACTUAL diverse people in that world. They were rarely mentioned, it would have been amazing to see what the east looks like. It's an open for character and world building in the LOTR lore and universe.
Or set in haradwaith, since what "diverse" means to these individuals is black people.
@@shawnm1902 yeah. even the known characters of that part of world has an unknown fate. anyone can even create and add their next journey. that's how vast and open are the south and east parts are. opportunity wasted.
Thats because they dont care about LOTR but only care about 'the message' and LOTR is popular with an excisting fanbase. Rather then invent a good new setting and tell their story in that world they rather take something excisting and popular and corrupt it to suit their ends...
Honestly, this would have been perfect form their point of view
Not only is it diverse, it's also mostly off of Tolkien's map, so they could create whatever story they wanted without stepping on canon toes
@N It is iconic, it's STILL part of the Lord of The Rings. Originality is better.
"The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men." - The Fellowship of the Ring, "Many Meetings". Description of Elrond.
"The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them ..." - Frodo
The irony with what they've done with Galadriel is astounding. Even in the movies Elrond seems to be a far less powerful and regarded character then Galadriel. She was held in high reverence for her wisdom, power and grace by not just her kingdom, not just her race, but all races of middle earth including the wizards and old enemies like the Dwarfs and the Orcs. Also, as a great and powerful sorcerer, she is easily set up to be a 'Mary Sue' even in the Movie, but by forcing her into Elrond's roll as a soldier is a disgracing demotion - all because their bigoted wokeness demands that all 'traditional male roles' must be held by women even if it makes them drastically weaker and less valued.
That's the thing I'm most opposed to how they imply Galadriel wasn't already powerful and noble enough. Sure it was in a womenly way, but no one would say she wasn't one of the most powerful beings involved with the story of the Lord of the Rings. Not the Simirillion of cousre but the hobbit and lotr Galadriel was at the top of that hierarchy. now she has to be ANOTHER warrior in a world of warriors to make some bullshit point...they lost me and the source material imo
Yes, such a stupid waste. Everyone is worried about not having any wizards in the Second Age, but they have a thousands-year-old Elven sorceress, ready to go... And they turn her into (apparently) an impulsive, immature warrior princess. And Elrond is a politician with a lesbian haircut. WTF
There is reference to her being an athlete earlier in life, and of being a stubborn combatant (though without details in what capacity she participated in battle) so the warrior thing is not a great stretch pre-corruption. What gets me is how it's depicted
Galadriel is absurdly strong for a 3rd age Middle Earth Elf, but she is nowhere close to a Maiar like the wizards, Balrogs and Sauron.
Gandalf never use more power than what he is allowed and that varies on the situation. This is why against the Balrog he actually fight for real, he is allowed to. This is also why his ''duel'' with the Witch King in the movies is non-sensical, the thing would not be a match for Gandalf, not even close. This is also in part why Saruman would be defeated, the Maiar and Valars, if they use their power for evil, slowly diminish in power, which is exactly why Sauron crafted the one ring, by linking is power to it, he avoided that issue.
On a note, I am not sure, but I think Galadriel did actually fight in the first age. It is not what defines her, but I seem to remember she actually fought against the armies of Melkor at least once.
Still Elrond is the warrior.
On the note of absurdly powerfull characters, some are men. Turin, son of Hurin, is specifically refered to by Tolkien as the mightiest of all men, he is the greatest warrior man kind ever had and will ever have and this might be true for the Elves as well, he might be the greatest warrior amongst all non-divine being. The family of Turin tend to be that way as a whole, his father Hurin, fought against the Balrogs in an epic last stand and managed to strike the lord of the Balrogs 72 times, his counsin Tuor is the man who became immortal and whose line would become the Kings of Numenor (incidentally Elrond too) and Turin is also related to Beren, trully a mighty family.
@@nathanc939 I do not recall Galadriel fighting in the Silmarillion, but she was among the host that rejected the Valar, choosing to sail east to wrest the Silmarils from Melkor. She was certainly hotheaded, but the only elf maid specifically mentioned to combat Melkor was Luthien, who did so as a powerful spell caster. She used her magic to aid a human, Beren Erchamion in a raid on Melkor's stronghold. Together they managed to recover a Silmaril and it would be their descendants that would repent for the elves' arrogance and get the Valar's assistance in throwing down Melkor. Those descendants would become the Numenorians. Fun fact, Luthien was half elven, half Maiar. The only woman Tolkien wrote about being a warrior was Eowyn.
My take on that problem about changes in Tolkien universe: really, if you want to change this and that or represent this and that... WRITE YOUR OWN BOOK. Make your own setting. There you can have cultures where women fight, you can have black elves, green elves, blue elves and rainbow elves - and noone has the right to tell you a thing, because it is YOUR world, so YOU make the rules.
You guys can sound downright pathetic sometimes. Not every single time is a non white person cast in a role to "send a message". You ever stop to think that the castor director maybe just thinks the actor is a great fit for the role?
Because that's also certainly possible.
@@SuperMurray2009 the "great fit" option is negated by the actor not matching the relevanz character description.
like a beardless dwarf.
@@SuperMurray2009 that's exactly right. And I have an example for this: we have "Shawshank Redemption" masterpiece, and we have Morgan Freeman playing the man who was Irish in the original. Was it because Freeman is black? No, it was because he is superb actor.
But there was another thing: it didn't contradict the setting.
The same thing would be "why don't we cast this great actress to "Save private Ryan" or "Name of the rose" - you may have the best in the world, but it is just wrong time and place.
@@SuperMurray2009 When people for warcraft lore, fight each other just for the eyes colores of elves, don't be surprising to see the same reaction about skin colore. Btw you even have the same problem with color skin orc ( green, brawn, red, grey etc). Same stuff for hair. Because yes, a lot of elements on the appearance must be taken into account to forge a coherent universe or at leat a more interesting universe.
I don't know too much the lore of Lotr, but of what i remember you have black/brown skin color people in south countries. You should say the same if we make a white women to their chief without any explanation/context ?
They know the lore, they know how it work, they know a lot of code to create an interesting universe or to go deeper in a universe that already exist. When you make these choice when you can choose anyone you want with some big budget, it's absolutly not because the "actor great fit for the role", it's either some pressure of your hierarchy or a personnal political choice ( and if that the case, assume it )
Recently you even have the same debate (even more vicious) about Uncharted and the last minute change to take Tom Holland
You can even have a big discuss about " if it's political, create all new races/stories/coherence would not have made the series more qualitative and therefore allow the cause to gain credibility and give more respect to people who want to be more represented"
Traduct with deepL
@@SuperMurray2009 The people making the changes already said they are doing it for political reasons, and funny how those changes always work in one direction, more importantly if you are ignorant of why certain things matter in the lore of LoTR then don't blabber nonsense, the Peter Jackson movies captured the looks and feel of each LoRT fantasy race correctly and in accordance to the books, if the creators of the show didn't like that they should have created their own damn story for the show with their own IP not bastardize someone else's work.
Part of what made Galadriel so great was we never actually get to see the extent of her power. It's clear that she is immensely powerful, old and wise. But you never know how much shes capable of. She never needed weapons or armor or military might to express her power. Her power is all together different which makes her that much better.
"The Message" doesn't see that as power. The only power they know is man's physical strength and thats why they plaster it to their woke female characters
@@ReicHHere They are fools then even men know power can be esoteric or more nuanced.
That is an excellent point. What makes wise elder characters cool is the mystery behind them. I liked that Gandalf’s journey after falling in the Mines of Moria was minimal, not even once showing Eru Iluvatar revive him onscreen. Because you never explain the magic too much, or it will feel less magical and esoteric.
Apply that to Galadriel, because her magical freak-out towards Frodo was sufficient to let me know she means business when she’s pushed. I didn’t need to see Galadriel kick a dog or slap Frodo to know she was being tempted by the dark power of the One Ring. I didn’t need to see her demonstrate any form of physical might to know how mighty she could possibly be (and maybe as a mere mortal I wouldn’t be able to comprehend her true power?).
In the film, a lot of that power is what Cate Blanchett normally exudes.
@@bring-out I was just making a joke that she has a lot of presence, regardless of role.
I'm a blind person. Nobody looks like me or gives a crap about representation, and indeed when blind characters are written, they're usually pretty terrible, either not blind at all, or so helpless they're useless (Toth from Avatar the last airbender is about the only decent recent film character I can think of).
Yet if you ask me what characters inspire me or who I identify with, I'll list you a bunch of people, none of whom are blind.
Frodo from Lotr, Willow from Buffy the vampire slayer, Yanto jones from Torchwood, perin from wheel of time, Luke Skywalker from Starwars.
It's their human nature and struggles that make me identify with them, not their gender, or skin colour or anything else.
Personally, after the travesty of wheel of time, I am categorically not! watching Amazon's middle earth series. Tolkien is too special to me to want to see his work butchered by people who don't have a tenth of his dedication, creativity or empathy, and only care about their own egos!
My favourite movie about a blind person is an Australian film "The Proof" from 1991, with Hugo Weaving in the lead role. I so much empathise with the character (I'm just badly myopic) that it has a catharsis effect on me.
@@hyvakoira That's not one I've seen.
Looking at the synopses on wikipedia, it sounds like an interesting exploration of knowledge, also one of the few examples of a work that doesn't show a blind person as asexual.
On the other hand, it does sort of sound like the main characters' blindness is still the salient fact about him and his place in the story, and that he's more a tool of the exploration of the theme of truth, than a character with an arc.
See my review of Caralin Ive's gilman's novel dark orbit which attempted to write a blind society and was guilty of the same thing:
www.fantasybookreview.co.uk/Carolyn-Ives-Gilman/Dark-Orbit.html
Again, can't speak definitively on the proof as it's not a film I've seen.
What I would! love to see is more "characters who happen to be blind", IE characters for whom their blindness is only one of a number of character traits and characteristics, not the be all and end all; one reason why Toth is so awesome; even if she did fall into the "magic blind person", box on occasion, and if her powers were occasionally a wee bit inconsistant.
to bring this back to the more general problem with representation, this is one thing which is irritating me increasingly about the current trend in adaptations, since it is a characters' identity, skin colour, gender, sexual preference which are always held as the most important facts about that characters, and more often than not how that character is portrayed.
Myself, I'm a husband to a truly wonderful lady, an operatic tenor (well it's in the handle), Voracious reader and book reviewer, I have a phd in philosophy, I am five foot 10, moderately muscular, dark haired, Caucasian, English, an aspiring author and occasional poet, a gamer and indeed accessible games advocate, a dog lover, extreme Tolkein fan boy and card carrying whovian.
All of these are facts about me aside from the fact that I am photonically disadvantaged.
@@darktenor4967 I loved the film for it's comment on friendship, loneliness and trust in people as a prerequisite for letting them into your life, and that's the main character's (and mine) biggest issue - how can you trust anyone if you can't trust your own eyes? Hugu Weaving's delivery is truly something. It's lovely to know you've achieved so much, and yes, it sucks when someone gets reduced to their skin colour, political views or disability. We all so much more than that, and it's things that we love and good at and ways in which we contribute to the society are what we will be remembered for.
@@hyvakoira fair enough.
Again, it's difficult to comment on a film just from the synopses, and for most things that aren't clearly pushed by blatant agenda, I usually prefer to check them first myself.
Obviously, there are major issues in portraying blind characters which unfortunately do come up on ocasion, usually by making a blind character either effectively not blind; the jordi la forge/dare devil problem, or by making them entirely incompetent, usually just existing as someone who is there simply for sentiment points, and for other members of the cast to "Do good to", to show how kind and compassionate they are.
Again, just by writing a character who is blind rather than a "blind!" character, is usually all that's needed.
Either way, thanks for the film recommendation.
What about the monk from Rogue One
You wanna know something weird? They're technically breaking their contract by doing this. Their contract outright said they can't change anything that Tolkein wrote, only fill in gaps. Then they went and changed stuff Tolkien wrote, such as making Elrond a politician rather than a healer and warrior and making Galadriel a general in an army that never existed.
Putting Hobbits in the Shire when the shire won't exist until the third age.
from what I have also heard they have only rights to lord of the rings trilogy and to hobbit, nothing else
so they can't even adapt silmarillion faithfully as they have no rights to its adaptation
@@brakdanych4329 actually they don't have rights to LOTR, or the Hobbit. Only the second age.
@@joshuahorn4786 Incorrect, they have the rights to adapt the content within LotR and The Hobbit, and are basing their material entirely on the appendices of RotK. The show runners themselves as well as Shippey have both confirmed this
They don't have the rights to the Silmarillion. They are using the appendix of RoTK to make the Second age. They do not care.
Amazon openly stated that: "We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books" and "We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit".
The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit all take place mostly (like 95%) in the Third Age.
This show is about the Second Age.
If they wanted to follow the lore, they would've bought rights to The Silmarillion (the "main" Second Age book). They did not. They clearly have 0 respect for Tolkien and just want his name.
Just FYI.
Honest opinion: No one is going to outdo Peter Jackson’s trilogy instead of watching Amazon’s fan fiction watch that or read the original books for goodness sakes
True but I would like a good tv series in the LOTR universe. Like The Witcher it's not like there's going to be other series anytime soon.
@@cataclyzm3844 Except that the witcher is also criticized by the fans of the books. Without henry cavill it might have been a shitshow xD
I tried to show my black friend the trailer but as soon as I said there were black elves and dwarf women with no beard she refused to even look at my phone she said " I don't to taint mind and memory with that garbage." By the way she's half way through the Silmarillion so she's particularly mad about lore changes now.
We will not let them pass! We're servants of the Secret Fire! This is where we draw the line!
You can do nothing. You have no power here.
@@ShadowKatt I have the power of unsubscribing and convincing other to do the same. Amazon made it so easy.
@@ChristmasLore Maybe calling you off as "FAT BLUE HAIRED ARMPIT HAM PLANET" XD Guess what, this Amazon thing has helped me a lot to red pilling more people every passing day. As George Orwell warned us, woke young females are the most loyal servants of Darkness just for likes.
Regarding the trailer, Galadriel looks exactly like Rey during the overhead shot when she’s climbing.
Stunning and brave, diversity and inclusion...
When is reason coming back?
Oh, so THAT'S who that was. Was hard to glean anything from the way it was cut. Plus I just couldn't do the Silmarillion. It's like reading the bible...
@@VelaiciaCreator LOTR is heavily (fundamentally) based in Catholicism. Tolkien’s own words (writing) to Father Murray.
@@VelaiciaCreator It's my bible.
@@TheKotor2309 I am aware.
I've argued this point to some people. If your going to add people of color, why not explore and add characters from the easterlings or South of mordor. Even the Numinorians (probably spelled it wrong) colonized just south of mordor. We could have seen unexplored cultures and people's. But no, screw creativity.
Those people where basically wrote as pure evil in the original what would the story even be about.
@@SolitaryLark How they get to the point of pure evil would be interesting. And surely you could have people within that group who fought against that evil and you could show that even though they fail in the end. It doesn't need to be the main story going on, just one running parallel to the story of the rings corrupting different people over time and this was a group that gave into that corruption at the end. I think that would be a really interesting story.
@@SolitaryLark not entirely. The south of mordor was largely neutral until they got mistreated by the Numinorians and thats what turned alot of them to Sauron. And in expanded lore, the easterlings even have a resistance against sauron. (And even some possible evil dwarves). I would have loved to see a story explore those areas.
*non-whites
"people of color" is anti-white racist rhetoric
32:40 Thank you Oz, I am absolutely sick of being told we can’t possibly know what it will be like when we’ve had all the experience we need to pick out the warning signs a mile away. Frankly, even if it weren’t for the blatant political agenda, I’d still have been pessimistic about this from the beginning because it was obviously a top-down approach to production motivated by greed rather than being a passion project of true fans and artists. Just compare the LotR to the Hobbit, this show will compound that difference by ten (if we’re lucky).
Funny story from earlier today: I was sitting on the bed nursing my baby, watching UA-cam, when my husband came home from 24 hrs on the job. He was listening to something on his phone through earbuds. We were both watching this exact video, and that was just such a highlight to my day. I laughed so hard.
Sounds like you have quite the man.
Shad, for Nick Fury, there was a black Nick in the comics, the Ultimates storyline (which a lot of the MCU is loosely tied to) and that version was actually based on Samuel L. Jackson's visage before they even had his permission. So casting him was actually casting the person who the character is actually based on.
It’s more than that. They used his likeness without permission in Ultimates. He’s a comics fan so he was cool with it-but said I get to play Nick if you make a movie. More than a decade later …
@@gregorde That worked out very well for him
He was then added to the main Marvel universe (Earth-616) where it was revealed that he was the son of the original Nick Fury.
I care about Tolkien’s stories so much. I literally can’t comprehend how people are trying to defend “Rings Of Power”. It looks horrible. Black hobbits, female dwarves without beards, hobbits being important in the 2nd age, elves looking young, and forced foreign races (this could work).They care more about their stupid agenda than one of the greatest stories ever. Great channel btw
a black elve could work if its some group from a secluded sahel city or more tropical state (not dessert or savannah. thats to open/ barren for elven likings. thats more human territory). the elve would have long hair though.
but amazons names the elf a grey elf. which is canonicaly wrong, as grey elves where extremely pale, not tan.
and black dwarfs make no sense for a sunlight avoidant people. and a tolkien dwarf without a beard is bodily disabled.
@@Chrisspru ^^^^THIS!! If changes were going to be made, I would've at least been happy if they actually make sense to the world in the story. But doing things at random for the sake of "diversity" just damages the whole viewing experience. I will say that if the writing turns out to be good, then I can accept that but if it doesn't... that's another damaging point to the series.
@@Chrisspru The problem that the elves were created a certain way so I don't think beng "balck" as african can make sense, if you mean they are can be tan than I agree, but in that case they are will look like italians or spaniards not africans.
@@Chrisspru I thought they named him a SILVAN elf, i.e. a wood elf, rather than a SINDAR elf, i.e. a grey elf. Granted, I have not read all the promo material, just what a couple of Vanity Fair articles mentioned.
As for the black Dwarf lady without a beard, she could have shaved it, since their good friends the Eregion elves are beardless and she is trying to make a fashion statement. It can be explained away (same with the short-haired elf). I think there is also a beardless (or near beardless) dwarf lady in the Hobbit movies, in the market of Dale. As for her skin color, make her a Blacklock dwarf from far away, a political marriage to the dwarven prince of the Longbeards, and explain it away that Aule just happened to use a darker stone* (whether deliberately to have his Children mimic the future Secondborn in skin colors or by accident).
* Following the Elven legends that Dwarves are made from earth and stone.
It is the violence done to the canonical characters' backgrounds and personalities that turns me off this show, and the timeline contraction to compress the story so that their normal human (and hobbit) characters would life through it all. What would have been so wrong to have timeskips between the seasons, and show THE REASON why the Numenoreans turned evil, i.e. their long but still mortal lifespan and fear of old age and dying?
@@varisugocsay1152 There is nothing mentioned of the elves' skin color in Silmarillion when they wake up at Cuivienen. Admittedly, I have not read all the histories of Middle-earth that have come out, so maybe in one of them Tolkien expressly says that all elves are of light skin. Anyway, based purely on Silmarillion, I would not have an issue if there is an offshoot of the Avari elves who live in the South and have a darker skin than their paler cousins in the northwestern Middle-earth. It is not as if the actor has a midnight black skin, either. Frankly, he would not look out of place in Spain or Italy. (He is Puerto Rican, by the way.)
Evil cannot create anything new, it can only corrupt and ruin what the forces of good have invented or created
-J.R.R. Tolkien
Stay on watch my friends
@@ChristmasLore The misquote is apparently from a translation of a translation. The Russian translations of Tolkien are varied (I blame the Soviets, probably maybe), and they took some liberties. So the ones quoting it in Russian were doing it as they remembered, and now everyone just prefers that version because of how it's more generalized.
I'll throw in the original for reference: "The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own."
In Tolkien lore, Orcs are Elves twisted and remade by evil.
Theory: Big Momma is that evil applied to Dwarves.
im at least 60-65% sure she's gonna throw some random gospel at us at some point....
Evil can't create!
30:49 actually, the exact quote is Frodo talking about Orcs: "The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them". The message is the same, tho.
Shad, Aragorn had a full length sword in the books by the time they left Rivendell. The only fight that would have happened before Narsil was reforged into Anduril would have been Weathertop, where he would have mainly used burning brands anyway, since the Nazgul don't like fire.
Yes! Diskuss the hell out of this! Cant wait for it! Im already massively pissed from the first photos and the teaser. And the comments of the showrunners. Time for some crusading!
Deus vult!
@@ChristmasLore Thats not the point of crusade, duh.
Plus, just cause your outnumbered doesn't mean that you lost already. The chance is there, so stinking fight for it, or bow out
Just want to say I really appreciate Oz because of his no BS attitude about everything. I love Shad don't get me wrong but Oz is unapologetic about what he thinks and it shows.
Same here. Noone should apologize for how they think about something. And he doesent :D
@@demoulius1529 It's refreshing, sometimes I feel like good old Shad tries to dress up his grievances in politeness, I can tell he's more discontented than he lets on which to me is just a result of him genuinely being a good hearted person and a bit of an optimist. Oz doesn't give two craps about that though and says what everyone thinks, albeit less articulate than Shad but definitely one hundred percent true. Oz has took an offensive stance against the tyranny in modern media and I just love how obvious he is about it. We need more people like that.
@@carlkenner4581 Shad does not virtue signal, shut the f up. He's just a normal dude. You clearly live you whole life in politics, that's not the way the real world works. I'm extremely political and conservative but you don't expect everyone to be completely the same to match your world view. Some things you agree with some things you don't and furthermore not everyone has full context about everything so naturally they're inclined to have differing or even fluctuating opinions at times, opinions you may not like. Grow Up. I've watched Oz specifically go from nonchalant and relatively unaware about some particular things to being absolutely fed up of left wing propaganda, he's definitely more aggressive than he used to be about it because they're more overt about it now than ever before.
@@carlkenner4581 u spend too much time on 4chan touch grace
"Treat people like people regardless of their skin color." Never have I ever heard anything so bigoted and hateful. Clearly the not racist thing is to judge primarily based on race. The world is actually just upside down.
No they have just read too much Critical Race Theory which unironically calls Martin Luther King's dream "Black Genocide".
I think your guys point about culture is good, and we need to see more of it. Because any more it seems like people only see "white culture" or "black culture", and don't comprehend how culturally diverse those groups of people can be, how someone from Australia, Germany, Russia, and the US can be vastly different culturally, or from Egypt, Nigeria, Ethiopia and the Congo. People are so obsessed with race that they're not only being racist, but incredibly culturalist as well; boiling thousands of cultures down into a small group of races, and saying "you're all the same because you look the same". Literally the mentality of Empires who committed actual genocide, and these people are trying to play the good guys
Edit: Also, I wanted to say; about the discussion of female dwarves, the entire idea that Tolkien had from what I remember is that to outsiders you couldn't tell the difference between dwarf men and women. Dwarf women did occasionally venture outside to adventure, but they looked identical to the dwarf men to everyone else
I blame Americanization. There is no true singular “American” identity, so instead of taking the time to create one, it’s become far easier to devalue and destroy existing cultures of the immigrants who come here, and of the American-soil-born generations that follow. Ask any Spanish-speaking immigrant in a typical American school, and they’d usually say they were bullied for being foreign, for speaking a non-English language. Ask a Chinese-American student nowadays how they’re treated in a pandemic-stricken world that blames Chinese people for COVID, and they would often try to distance themselves from their roots to avoid harassment.
And “white culture” is derived from European-descended people who are so far removed from their roots. Of course they wouldn’t know nor care enough about the difference between Anglo-Saxons, Franks, Celts, Germans, and Slavs. They didn’t grow up with such diversity in mind. It’s no wonder why these groups are lumped together monolithically.
TL;DR: I think the US is a breeding ground for disrespect and irreverence towards cultures because it actively tries to erase cultural identities and reduce people to whatever “race” they belong to. Doesn’t help that we have job applications that always ask for race too.
It really depends where in the USA you talk about Some regions have a distinct identity beyond the US and even by state. Tell me a Texan is culturally American rather than a Texan American.
I don't understand how anyone can be represented by a dwarf or elf no matter what colour they are. Dwarves, Elves, and Hobbits are not races in the human sense of race (Chinese, Indian, African, Caucasian etc); they are separate species. It's as if they think a person can be represented on screen by a black fish or brown bear.
Egyptians are not black.
My biggest issue so far was the Vanity Fair article where they said they were going to write novel Tolkien didn't. The arrogance to think they could add to Tolkien's legacy is abhorrent. They are absolutely gonna Rafe this up.
I'm not an insider but I do have exp. with casting actors.
In productions like this, the "higher ups" often employ professional psychologists. They have the psychologists study human faces. They invite a lot of people and show them videos of actors, photos of actors or have them sometimes meet the actors - and then the people must fill out a questionnaire regarding their thoughts and feelings about the actors.
*Now here is the thing* : When it comes to "political" and "diverse" movies and TV shows, they cast for "impact" - meaning: They cast actors and actresses that will make an impact on you - subconsciously - if you just behold, look at the actor or actress in question. This can be great for marketing purposes - but this is NOT what they are going for. They want the OPPOSITE of an "easy on the eye" - they cast actors and actresses that cause a form of psychological trauma if you just look at them.
In other words - and now I'm talking about the "dwarf queen" specifically - they cast her as an actress and did her make up and costume in a very specific way - in order to trigger people they perceive as "racists" - or in other words: The average white person.
I am not kidding - they hired psychologists in order to have them find the most offensive looking actress and then make her look in a way that supports this offensive look - to make white people mad on a fundamental, psychological level.
Why would they do this? Make of it what you will - I will just give you the facts and won't delve into the realm of "conspiracies" here.
They do this because they arent interested in succes or honoring the source material. They are only interested in Hollywood brownie points and pushing their agenda. Everything from swapping the roles Galadriel and Elrond have, the black Elf etc. The beardless dwarf was probably the biggest insult. People give 0 shits about the skin colour. It doesent make sense but they know that they have skin colour quotas. But the blatant disregard of the female dwarf look is an insult and a spit in the face.
WHich is kind of ironic as well, as the crowd that generally thinks this is a good idea normally jump at a opportunity to put beards on woman....
after reading your complete comment im left with a strong feeling that you just described how prime evil works....Sauron is a clown compared to those that made this show
These people just hate white folks for some weird reason. Don't ask me, they'll outright tell you themselves.
What your saying sounds so screwed up, But you know what. I wouldn't be surprised. People need to stop sending a "Message" and let people discover the explorer in themselves, Find the truth for themselves. I don't think they realize how racist they are being, Using subliminal messaging and forced diversity , Diversity is much needed but not at the cost of lore breaking and being racist. I don't think they realize they are behaving like Nazi's. lol
@@ChristmasLore whether or not they need their medication are you in support of this atrocity... If they want a sjw version then WRITE THEIR OWN BOOK.
Oz: that´s Elrond
me: that´s prince charming from shrek
nathen: that guy looks like me
I’m sorry this is happening to you guys. As a former Trek fan I know how this is gonna feel. It’s not great.
My favorite part of the Silmarillion was Galadriel teaming up with the Freefolk and climbing the Ice Wall. - Show writer
In before Galadriel rides into war on a dragon.
I expect the plot for Gladerial will run along the lines of. She senses the evil and tells the arrogant and/or evil male elf and he’ll say she’s full of it. Then Gladerial will be like “ I’ll do it myself to prove my autonomy as a character”. Cue Gladerial free climbing up a mountain. You go girl!
*Gluadrooleal
Concerning Galadriel, they made her seem less powerful than the Jackson films or the book. Look at her, she was positively angelic until she showed her true power and she was utterly terrifying! These showrunners reduced her to a metal plated stronk she-hulk!!
I still remember how she scared the crap out of me when I was a kid XD
Except Galadriel actually was a She-Hulk in Tolkein's original work. He explicitly describes her as being extremely tall and muscular and built like a man. This waifish, super feminine Galadriel is purely a creation of Peter Jackson's imagination.
@@twilightsuzuka6252 So that excuses this new abomination how?
Galadriel has this from Tolkien's work "and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will [...] Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses."
Also The Lady Galadriel - "Lady of Light" - grandmother of Lady Arwen, was an Elven Queen of extraordinary beauty, with her timeless features and golden river of hair.
"Galadriel was highly praised for her beauty, particularly that of her hair, which was a deep and radiant gold, shot with silver. It was said by the Elves of Tirion to have ensnared the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, Telperion and Laurelin, and possibly to have inspired the creation of the Silmarils by Fëanor. She was also the tallest of elf-women, standing at around 6 feet 4 inches, or 193 centimeters. Because of her wisdom and power, she had very important roles throughout the history of Middle-earth, especially during her time in Eregion and during the War of the Ring. She had a penchant for dressing in the purest white.
She was known, especially in her younger days, as being quite prideful. However, by the end of the Third Age, that pride had been tempered a great deal by age."
@@georgewhitworth9742 that's the Galadriel Tolkien actually wrote - Tomboy Amazon large and of remarkable strength. Galadriel's incredible power in in the Third Age is partly due to the Elven Ring of Water, and the fact that she is a first age Noldor, cousin of Feanor, daughter of Finarfin. It does not get much more powerful than that with regard to bloodlines in Middleearth. But still a Maia (Gandalf) in disguise and a rebellious Maia (Sauron) and a broken Maia (the Balrog) heavily rely on physical weaponry while they have bodily form....
I am really glad you guys brought up the clear change to Galadriel's character into a warrior princess style. I am a huge LOTR lore fan and have read almost everything written on Middle-Earth (or at least own it). If you asked me who was the most powerful person in all of Middle-Earth (not counting Maiar or Valar) I would always say Galadriel. In the lore, she totally trashed Dol Guldor with her ring of power Nenya by using it to cleanse the evil from the fortress during the War of the Ring. Even though she wasn't a warrior, she was the most single powerful person in Middle-Earth. Her word meant more in a discussion than even Saruman or Gandalf's. I find it ironic that she is the strongest female in Tolkien, but they have to change her to make her more masculine to fit their agenda. What a waste of her brilliance. Thanks for pointing out that change Shad, now I'm even more upset with this show. Keep it up Knights Watch!
Woke culture regards women as better than men, but also requires that those “better” women just be men with breasts. And now, the type of woman they like most is simply a man who identifies as a woman.
Woke culture is as sexist and anti-women as they claim their critics to be.
oh wait
She was free-spirited, and during her time in Aman had many dreams of wide unexplored lands. In her youth, she was very willful and of an "Amazon" disposition ; and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats.[21] = ↑ 21.0 21.1 21.2 J.R.R. Tolkien; Humphrey Carpenter, Christopher Tolkien (eds.), The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 348, (dated 6 March 1973), p. 428
Who cares for the original material or checking whether one's vision is correct ? seems a fighting Galdriel was very much what Tolkien imagined for Galadirels younger years
also :
At the time of her birth, Finarfin named his only daughter Artanis. Her father-name meant "Noble Woman" in Quenya, from arta + nís.[6]
Due to Artanis's height and her great strength of body and will, Eärwen chose the Quenya name *Nerwen, meaning "man-maiden".*[7]
Alatáriel was the Telerin name given to Galadriel by Celeborn, meaning "Maiden Crowned with Radiant Garland", which referred to her hair.[6]
all quotes from tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Galadriel
Sounds rather like a warrior to me - she may have softened her martial ambitions after some millenia had passed ( I mean she was born in Valinor before the Noldor even left in the first age )
Galadriel in LoTR and the books is Galadriel a few thousand years AFTER this. Changes can happen =D
the way I see the beard thing:
yes, we're used to human women being beardless. but dwarves are not only a different race but a completely different species to the humans. As such, while it would be weird to see a dwarven woman with a beard from a human perspective, that feeling was also felt by humans that were meeting dwarven women for the first time, so that weirdness would actually be a good thing.
“No, Bilbo wasn’t the first Hobbit to leave the Shire, this girl was.”
“No, Elrond wasn’t at the battle of Mordor, it was Galadriel.”
“No, Khazad Dum didn’t fall because the dwarves explored too far, it’s because they didn’t listen to this queen!”
Bilbo wasnt the first, there is a sizeable hobbit community in Bree, hobbits from the Shire travel there occasionally
Good point. I suppose I mean “beyond Bree”, but even then that probably goes to his big ol’ uncle that invented Golf.
I enjoyed those Conan movies from the 80s that featured warrior women and a diverse cast. That was ok because it reflected the world that Robert E Howard created. This Amazon show isn’t authentic to Tolkien and is just another example of people in Hollywood forcing their politics onto the public.
I love the anime 'Ghost in the Shell', a story set in Japan, written by Japanese authors, but so universally appealing that we made the movie in America and the show's aesthetic is ingrained in the Cyberpunk genre.
"Problems are an opportunity to be creative"
Thank you Oz, for that line!
Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.
-JRR tolkien
There was one elf who was not played by a model, but by a superfan. He has one scene with Elrond.
Figwit xD
I'm pretty sure Tolkein always wanted his ancient English mythology to look like 2020 San Francisco
I wish they would also acknowledge that these elves are already almost 1000 years old. They should be intelligent and wise after that amount of time. It is interesting that they are giving the elves a VERY human emotional attitude and immaturity. This is where the character descriptions like Galadriel “as angry and brash as she is clever”. Please find this in Tolkien’s works and explain to me why an elf of her stature would ever be like this. She is in many ways a “perfect” elf that many elves (and fans) idolize. Her words are more powerful than any armor or sword. Remember when she said no to Feanor when he asked for her hair? That’s real power. It’s just sad to see some iconic characters be treated in such a way. Tolkien put the work in (literally a lifetime) don’t waste your time on a new story.
Galadriel is already 2000+ yrs old. She wouldn't be "hot blooded, or adventurous" she would be well settled by then.
@@joshuahorn4786 She's also married and has an adult daughter named Celebrian by this point.
Now if that was Celebrian instead of Galadriel at least that would be a better fit.
Any idea if they bothered to research Middle Earth before starting this?
@@Darkwintre most likely the same research that went into WoT. Which is to say the show runner remembers someone reading it once 30+ yrs ago
@@joshuahorn4786 So... why didn't they just buy the right to a D&D tv series instead?
They could have made up anything they wanted even base it on the 80's animated series and it wouldn't have been this bad?
@@Darkwintre I agree, but that would also involve them having both and idea of their own, as well as an imagination.
At this point I doubt anyone at Amazon, Disney, or Netflix have any form of creativity at all.
Something I would love to see is a discussion of this and the wheel of time show between Shad and Daniel Greene. Both are big UA-camrs, authors, and probably very different in political outlooks. Both are down to earth enough to have a good productive discussion that would be interesting and informative to watch.
I don't like beards on women either but since they're not even supposed to be identifiably different from the male dwarves the correct answer is to cast bearded males for all dwarven roles, and if possible avoid referring to any as specifically female.
Well Tolkien himself wasn't consistent with this. Generally dwarven women should have beards, but then Numenorean royalty like Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir and Isildur should not have them.
It's such a breath of fresh air to hear an actually reasonable point of view be voiced openly in these times. Thank you!
@@carlkenner4581 Don't worry, that was your other tab. Just hit play on this video and it'll make sense. 👍🏻
I love the smell of new videos in the morning!
That’s actually a really great point that Shad makes in the beginning. If you can’t find something to identify with the human on screen simply because they don’t look like you… that is blatantly racist.
Or too self-centered to the point of being a piece of shit.
Or a narcissist?
another thing is if you feel the need to 'represent' an ethnic group, just because you feel like they are too poor on their own to get representation, they you are protectively racist towards that group. If you weren't you wouldnt feel the need to insert them as tokens.
@@Kvothe1994 it is bigotry of low expectations… “these people are incapable of x y z so we need to do 1, 2, 3 for them”
Is this Amazon’s Discount GOT series they claim is a lord of the rings story?
Lol. That's messed up! But true!
I think Shad may have a bad definition of racism.
A racist is someone who believes their own family background to be inherently superior to other family backgrounds and/or believes that certain backgrounds are inferior.
Noticing differences between different groups and having difficulty relating to them may be ignorant or uninformed but it's not racism.
No his is correct too..racism is literally prejudices based on skin color or ethnicities. Not sure where you got your definition...🤔
"Το κακό δεν μπορεί να δημιουργήσει τίποτα καινούργιο, μπορεί μόνο να διαφθείρει και να καταστρέψει αυτά που οι καλές δυνάμεις έχουν εφεύρει ή κατασκευάσει." -J.R.R. Tolkien
The thing that gets me, what the hell would Galadriel need a sword for?
Your told that Sauron's entire host from Mirkwood couldn't' enter Lorien? why, Galadriel's elven ring!
When you've got the power to literally stop time and potentially take on Sauron himself, why the hell would you need a pointy piece of metal? Anyone attacks Galadriel with a sword, she'd just tell them to drop it, jedi style and they'd have no choice!
Tolkien wrote some pretty kickass powerful women, some like Eowin were warriors, but not all were, anymore than all his powerful male characters were warriors, look at Saruman.
but of course, the idea of power existing through force, wisdom and personality rather than martial prowess would require some actual subtlety.
This just isn't Tolkien. Battles are fought with swords. Galadriel is a physical warrior. There are several reasons to criticise the show, but Galadriel wielding a sword is just not one of them.
Feanor the most powerful and the great elf wields a sword. Thingol in early versions the 2nd most powerful elf after the death of Luthien and Feanor, gets killed by a group of dwarves. Beren with no magic beats up powerful Elven Lords.
As for the defence of Lothlorien there is an army fighting as well. Elrond does a similar thing in the Second Age, but he too requires an actual army.
By the Third Age Elrond and Galadriel both seem to have stopped directly leading armies, but it is faithful to the lore to have them do so before.
Gandalf has a ring and magic yet he still uses a sword.
@@twilightsuzuka6252 Yep its ironic thst people complaining about the use of a sword never complained about Gandalf and Elrond.
Tolkien just does not have this modern fantasy category of 'mage.'
I needed this about 2 hours ago when I was at work. Now I have to wait until tonight to listen to it.
Thanks for producing this stuff though
If I was VERY generous, I could justify Galadriel in armor:
1) she is comparatively younger and full of hope of building a kingdom in Middle Earth, not the wise we know from the LOTR.
2) she is travelling through The Helcaraxe after the killing of her father and all the mess of the destruction of The Trees and the stealing of the Silmarils
The problem is her climbing the glacier alone with a dagger.
She was with the other Noldors.
So many, when they arrived in Middle Earth, they moved the balance of power in favor of the Elves.
I see a problem even with both of those reasons tho.
1) She's younger, but not like, half her age in LOTR younger. She still had lived for several thousand years in the years of the two trees. Even at that time, I'm pretty sure she's described as wise (don't quote me for this one tho). Even if she wasn't, Melian's teachings in the first age, and the failures of her kin in general, would definitely make her wise. The fact that she survived that age, where so many powerful, noble heroes died, I think is testament to how good she is.
2) All of the events there happened before or at the beginning of the first age, plus her father wasn't killed or have killed anyone. She's the daughter of Finarfin, while Fëanor, her uncle, is the one who led the first kinslaying. The second age begins in a peaceful note, with Morgoth defeated and his forces annihilated. At the second age, she is a powerful sorceress, not a frontline soldier.
And yeah, the climbing glacier thing is just next level wrong. The only glacier present in the second age is in forodwaith, where theres absolutely NO elven civilization, or any civilization, if we're going straight by the texts. There's only dragons there, and I don't even think they're there before the third age.
A while back, a TV series about Troy came out and cast a black man as Zeus. When people objected, the defense was that Zeus is a Greek god, therefore a shapeshifter. If he wants to present as a black man, he can. However, when Gods of Egypt came out and cast white actors as Egyptian gods, the accusations of racism were everywhere. Apparently, it's okay for Greek gods to be black, but you'd better not change Egyptian gods to white.
It wasn't just Zeus. It was like half the Greeks, including Achilles and Patroclus
Galadriel ice climbing in plate/mail armour is beyond absurd! I've gone climbing with folks that literally count the ounces of their gear, to the extent that they cut off zipper pull tabs to save weight.
well "elves are special" in the books already - Legolas is walking "on" the snow, while everyone is hip deep; Aragorn and Boromir as well as Gimli waltz around in chain or plate ?
@@mynameiswritinwater Elves are graceful and agile, they do not possess super hero level strength.
@@birdlaw1019 your elves might not,
Tolkien's Noldor where smiths and supreme skilled with weapons. Galadriel's ("the man-maiden of amazon disposition ) uncle Fingolfin was the only "mortal" being to wound Morgoth ( a Valar, e.g. a vast and godlike being of Tolkien's universe ) in single combat..., ... so basically, the Noldor of the First Age and the entire House of Finwe (aka Galadriel's Grandfather ) probably do not stick to RL world rules and physical laws. this is a Fantasy.
Just witness Legolas walking on snow while everyone else sinks in, Glorfindel and Elrond working magic, or Feanor creating gems full of the light of the Two Trees , one of which became a Star in Middlearth's Sky.
MAN! i had 100% respect for you. but now hearing everything u said about the new series and about woke people. my respect for you went from 100% to 1000000%!! its over 9000!!!! man you are so right, and its so obvious what these "woke" people are trying to do and thank you for saying the truth!
The really puzzling thing is that the same company did an absolutely Sterling job of making Reacher from the book Killing Floor, no one with an ounce of sense and honesty would argue that Jack Reacher is an undeniable example of conventional masculinity.
The whole "argument" at the beginning is absurd. I agree with OZ on that. You aren't convincing these people by pointing out their hypocracy because they don't care.
I always thought the point of stories was to make us empathize with people we might not have otherwise. When I watch "Toy Story" I can't really see myself in any of those characters, physically. But the story is told well enough that I can care about the characters.
Hell, "Boyz N the Hood" was a really good, shocking movie to me. Can I empathize in some way with these characters that are vastly different from me (thankfully, IMO, as I would not be able to live in that environment)? Yes. Odd that.
The point of the argument is NOT to change the minds of people who are essentially ideologues, but to change the mind of people who have not yet decided.
@@ChristmasLore
Tolkien had female heroes, even ones who went to battle and fought. Tolkien had people of other colors than white. The show creators weren't interested in going with the flow of Tolkiens established lore, they wanted to directly oppose it (probably to rile people up and get free advertisement) instead of using what Tolkien already had.
@@ChristmasLoredoes it have to be an equal 1:1 ratio men and women heroes? Why? Also the Southrons and Easterlings who fought for Sauron were a small fraction of the people who were corrupted by the cult of Sauron that the two blue wizards went south to combat against. That could of been a great story to tell, but instead they wanted to pave over established lore.
@@ChristmasLore Also I'm not assuming bad intent, it seems to be a trend that show creators want to get free publicity by riling up fans. Ghostbusters did the same thing to get publicity.
@@ChristmasLore You’re being too hand wavy about this. The artistic vision of creators must be upheld. Any who go against this is frankly an enemy of the arts, no matter what they might think.
I honestly don’t care what the creator’s intentions are; good or ill, this is intentionality going against established lore when they could of still done things in a way that matched with the lore and would probably be more interesting for it. Having a diverse cast it not i inherently a benefit to a story or even a moral good in itself.
But that’s beside the point. Nobody has issue with diverse casts in this day and age, mainstream culture Hollywood has accepted it, this is undeniable. The issues only arises when they come for established settings and IPs instead of simply making up new stories. Heck most people are willing to forgive race/gender bending in a setting that makes sense. But race is specifically focused on in the lore of this setting; if you actually read it and the intent behind the story was to create an Anglo-Saxon mythology for the British people. To try to put that on the same level as dragons and unicorns is being at best intentionally bullheaded.
17:00 When they announced Idris Elba as Heimdall in Thor everyone started talking about how terrible it was to cast a black person as a white Scandinavian god... until actual pictures of him in his gear came out and people were like "Oh wow that is freakin' cool. If anything once the images of the Rings of Power cast in their gear came out the complaints INCREASED and are still going because they look like LARPers...
That was also BEFORE the woke crowd really went apeshit with their blackwashing.
@@TheAchilles26 Yes but it was still someone changing the skin color of a character. There were a lot of complaints about it until they saw him in the suit and said he looked cool. Nowadays most people actually really like his version of Heimdall. Its like showing a quality attempt at a character made the difference between people being angry at what actor was playing a character and not.
Great comments, guys. Good to see - on your channel and many others - that common sense is still alive.
*"Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made"*
-Tolkien
All of my DnD dwarves I've ever played have always commented on the size of the beard on a female Dwarf they've come across. It's become a "huge tracks of land" running joke in my playgroup. I don't have to find bearded women attractive. I doubt many people do. It's just a little part of the world. I force the cannon into my DnD games to make the worlds more fantastical. Sure, DM might not always appreciate it, but it's there.
Dnd dwarves differ abit from LOTR dwarves, they arent dipected with beards. That said if you want to do that, go for it. Dnd is you (and your fellow players) their party. If you guys think bearded dwarf woman should be canon then it shall be so!
@@demoulius1529 the other players don't really know better, but the DM knows DnD Dwarven women don't have beards. I just push the cannon for funsies and it works.
@@seymourfields3613 They're not humans so 🤷♂️
I actually prefer other races being more "alien" to humans in D&D
I remember when I first watched the Fellowship of the Ring, I was quite upset that not everything was in the movie, like the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil, the wights on the way to the prancing pony and the swords the hobbits got, stuff like that.
Then I watched it a second time, became more relaxed about the stuff I was missing, and the 3rd time I watched it, I simply watched and enjoyed the movie.
Point is, even though I was missing quite a lot, what is THERE is an awesome adaptation of the books. Arwens intro, the skateboarding on a shield and the Oliphaunt that only counts as one are a bit silly, but the latter two function to show the friendship between an elf and dwarf growing, while Arwens intro functions not only to introduce her, but the elves as a whole. Could it have been done better? Prolly. Does it need to? Not for me at least.
Looking at the "Rings of Power", it seems clear the creators do not understand the world they're seeking to recreate, they just read stuff and thought: "Oh, that might look cool, let's add that to OUR story that WE want to tell, with OUR characters" and they simply ignore everything else Tolkien created. They're just as self-absorbed and high on their farts as the rest of Hollywood. It will be shit.
Angels aren't beautiful, delicate or gentle. Though Alita wasn't beautiful either with those freakish bushbaby eyes.
I have one question, how Galadriel can climb the ice with only one dagger? Why not two? What will keep her attached to ice when she pulls it out?
her victory over the patriarchy
They changed the comic character of Nick Fury to be based on Samuel L. Jackson years before Iron Man came out actually, and it was a good change.
“There are wonders in our world beyond our imagination “ There its fixed. Reason the writers didn’t think of that word is because they have no imagination.
I'm not sure if I want any Cosmere work to be adapted to live action anymore in the foreseeable future. At first I thought Stormlight would be perfect with its diverse ethnicities where white people are almost non-existent and there is only one prominent character of that nation, but then remembered the quote about evil and the companies that have the budget to do a proper adaptation would amp up the wokeness to the max, so I'd rather not see that.
They would make shalan the main protagonist instead of kaladin
That shot from the trailer with whom we presume to be Galadriel leading a cavalry charge, reminds me a lot of how Brienne of Tarth is described in the Song of Ice and Fire books.
I like the way y’all laid the foundation and built your argument from the ground up.
"The Dutch are from Belgium right?" *Willem I has left the chat*
"There's nothing wrong with diversity and inclusivity" without context and in isolation, correct. Otherwise, it depends on the context it's presented
Yes, there is something wrong with diversity and inclusivity. It excludes White people and like evil it corrupts everything it touches.
Diversity is death for creatives. I write gays, women, and various cultures into my books/stories because the characters are good (because I wrote them). I don't put them in to fill a quota.
Ruxi isn't gay because she needs to fill a quota, she's gay because she likes nice soft women over the ripped, massive, nasty gladiators she grew up around.
Diversity as an accidental result is okay, yet it always is an end, no matter the means. Inclusivity always implies picking people based on tokens and not talent. Wonder what the mindset of someone hired to further diversity and to be inclusive is, I'd find it rather insulting.
“Evil is not capable of creating anything new, it can only distort and destroy what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” - J.R.R. Tolkien
History is being rewritten by the baddies.
Nah, the fan fiction writers from tumblr just grew up and have big kid money to waste now. History remembers art, not trash.
There is no destroying the lord of the rings franchise because as long as we have the source material, there is hope
It is said that Tolkien himself smiles from the heavens upon the men who defend his works & legacy!
Shad is referring to Fintrid (the character that calls all elves women) btw . Damn I miss curse of silverthorn . We so need a sequel of that . It was so good .
To answer you, Oz, we Americans are the Giant Eagles. We do our thing, we don't like being interfered with, and we swoop in at the last moment to secure victory and steal glory.
MERICA!!!!!!!! FRELL YEAH!!!!!!! COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHERFRELLING DAY YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
24:20 Changing Nick Fury worked so well partially because he was already repurposed in the source material so much that he might as well be a new character.
If he was not going to have his back story as WW2 battle commander Sergeant Fury, leader of the Howling Commandoes, he might as well be a whole other person which is what they went for first in Ultimate Marvel Comics then the MCU.
Amazon actually specifically fired any of their employees who understood the established lore that questioned the shows direction
A quote that comes to mind is: " I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Is it really so hard to treat others as you would want to be treated?
yes
Too bad that was a cover for the proto CRT stuff he would push, and his sympathies for communism
What did Tolkien say about canon?
Letter 210 from Tolkien
“The canons of narrative in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.”
Amazon made the inhumane race more human, which take away from the fantasy. Also look more close at the elf & dwarf cloth mix the reverse the look.
The dwarf looks like a gospel singer.
Several thoughts for the boys of the Watch: first, I need to hear Oz talking about the leaked casting requirements for Amazon that say that a minimum half of casting must be female and half must be poc, which means best case scenario in any given Amazon property only one in four characters can be a white male. That’s why all these shows are coming out looking like the same thing: they’re written from diverse casting before anything else, story included.
Second, as for the hypocrisy around saying things like “Black Panther is diverse,” in the liberal definition diversity simply means non-white, once looking through that lens everything starts making perfect sense.
Thirdly, if you want an excellent, manly, 80’s style action hero show from Amazon, watch the new Reacher show. It’s shockingly good, and everyone is raving about it. Little to no woke stuff at all, strong male hero archetype front and center, 11/10 recommend watching.
Course violating several laws in discrimination but cause it's for certain groups it's ok.
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion
This is what I was waiting for. Can't wait to hear what you all think. Especially OZ given how on point he is about the culture war (ego feeding moment ;) )
Everyone would have freaked out if the live-action Avatar: The Last Airbender hadn’t been an all-Asian cast
So that talk at the beginning reminded me of the time I watched Lovecraft Country. In terms of Lovecraftian horror it was actually *really* good. The fact all the main characters were all black didn't bother me at all. The themes of racial tension and everything were fitting to the time period. Where I had a problem was the blatant black and white portrayal of white people. I did not see a *single* white character in that show that *wasn't* racist. It's okay to have racist white characters, but when you imply *all* white people are racist it is both unrealistic and socially harmful. I'll be honest, I enjoyed that show and I enjoyed the main characters, but it was clear they had a very black and white view of things.
That sounds like eating an apple with a worm in it. Everything about the fruit is perfectly good and yet there is this malicious entity that has been inserted into it that is consuming the material for its own benefit. And you could eat around the worm and enjoy the apple but why bother when you know that it's been tainted by this ugly little thing?
@@wolfdemexico Yeah, it really was kinda like that. Like, the first couple of episodes it was tolerable because it felt within reason, but it soon became clear that, as far as the creators of the show were concerned, being white made you racist, which kinda soured the show as a whole.
A Dwarven Woman: "Shaddy, chill."
Shad: "What the hell... is even that?"
the funny thing is, this isnt lord of the rings, the showrunners said as much.
they dont have the rights to the silmarilion (the book that pictures the times this show plays in), they have the appendixes, lotr, the hobbit, thats it. so they can use galadriel, elrond, but no silmarilion characters and also not the story of silmarilion, so they are making it up as they go.
so the whole thing has lotr characters and the lotr name, but it isnt lotr, its a completly new story.
and before someone jumps on me, thats not a defence, more an attack, because if you dont have the rights, dont make it.
Shad, never underestimate the Sonic fanfiction. There's always a Sonic fanfiction on EVERYTHING. I won't be surprised if there's a Shad fanfiction with Sonic.
A fellow Arch enjoyer? Greetings and salutations, friends!
Love Arch. He probably should've thought through some of the things he's posted and said, as they are the kind of thing that you save for people you know well, but he's a decent man all things considered.