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The COOLEST alphabet (and how it could be improved)
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- Опубліковано 14 сер 2024
- SENĆOŦEN’s writing system initially terrified me-using a comma (cedilla!?) as a letter and whatnot-but its wholesome history was enough to change my mind. This video is about Dave Elliott’s SENĆOŦEN alphabet, its pros and cons, and some suggestions for it!
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KEYBOARD LAYOUT
[layout]
Q W E R T Y U I O P ́
A S D F G H J K L ¸
shift Z X C V B N M bck
, . space return
[values]
K: K Ḵ Ḱ ₭
T: T Ⱦ Ŧ Ṯ
W: W W̱
X: X X̱
N: N Ṉ
L: L Ƚ
E: E e é ë ê è ę ė ē
U: U U¸ Ú u ú ü û ù ū
I: I Í i í ï ì î į ī
O: O o ó ö ô ò õ ø ō
A: A Á Ⱥ a á ä â à æ ã å ā
S: S Ś s ß
J: J j j́
C: C Ć Ȼ c ç
N: N n ñ ń
¸: ¸ ’
,: , ; : ' "
.: . ! ?
́ : ́ r R
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CHAPTERS
Intro - 0:00
History - 0:51
The Pros - 2:28
The Cons - 3:11
Suggestions - 5:43
Conclusion - 9:39
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MUSIC
• Chillpeach - In Dreamland : • [no copyright music] '...
• Chillpeach - 2:00 AM : • [no copyright music] '...
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CORRECTIONS & NOTES
• (4:23) The letter/sound ƛ (tɬ) isn’t actually used in Klallam, even though ƛ̕ (tɬ̕) is. ƛ does exist in neighboring languages, but the point still stands since ƛ̕ has the little mark to tell you it's an ejective consonant.
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RESOURCES & REFERENCES
• [Learn SENĆOŦEN] - sencoten.org/
• [A Grammar of SENĆOŦEN] - 54.187.88.103/sencoten/index
• [SENĆOŦEN on FirstVoices] - www.firstvoice...
• [Pronunciation of the SENĆOŦEN Alphabet] - • SENĆOŦEN Alphabet
• [Mini-documentary on W̱SÁNEĆ people] - • Finding Our Talk Episo...
• [W̱SÁNEĆ School Board website] - wsanecschoolbo...
• [SENCOTEN app on the iOS store] - apps.apple.com...
Remember to check the description for resources to learn SENĆOŦEN!
This video makes a lot of good points, but I'm surprised that you didnt mention one of the orthography's biggest sins: every letter is capitalized EXCEPT the possessive suffix -s for some reason.
Hi! So I didn't bring that up because I'm pretty sure that feature was later removed such that today's alphabet is fully unicase. I see no mention of it on any reference document other than on Wikipedia
1:30 brainrot pronunciation guide 😳
YES someone noticed
Personally, I prefer the original script, not because it's easier or anything but because it has its own unique history and character. Hardly any language utilises its writing system in an 'optimal' way, even the Latin alphabet isn't a perfect fit for Latin phonology, especially in its earliest forms.
We don't try to 'fix' the grammar of languages to make it 'easier' for foreign learners, so why should orthography be treated any different?
Again, though, this is just my personal opinion. Spelling reforms can be great in the right context! Ultimately, it's up to those who speak the language to decide for themselves.
Absolutely true and that's one of the points I brought up (5:30), hence why I'm only "suggesting" these changes rather than speaking authoritatively about what SENĆOŦEN should do-it is ultimately always at the hands of the community, and I do really love the current orthography. Thanks your opinion!
People don't realize that the latin writing system was created ALL CAPS
exactly!
That's actually a good thing. I don't understand the purpose of using more than one letter case. I think all orthographies should be unicase.
@@Imacrab398 Arabic is unicase and works perfectly fine yeah
Great video! I loved how much effort you put into being respectful to the SENĆOŦEN speech community, and that you included some resources in the description. I think your new orthography is really well designed. I was always one of those people who dismissed SENĆOŦEN orthography purely based on aesthetics, so thanks for opening my eyes.
Glad to hear you also had a change of heart :)
The reason I originally hated it is because I thought it was yet another eccentric orthography made by missionaries, but after learning about Dave Elliott, I think it's actually really cool!
love how respectful you are to the community throughout your entire analysis and commentary! :)
I find it really insensitive how so many people say they hate this alphabet, or find it "weird". As you said it was made by a native speaker of the language, permitted the revitalisation of the language and is loved by those who use it ! It is an integral part of this people's heritage and we should be a bit more careful when criticising this alphabet. As a speaker of an endangered language I must say I am quite insulted when people who do not speak the language insult its writing, grammar or pronunciation just for laughs
Totally agree with you, we should always try to understand which is actually what happened to me when learning about this writing system-I always thought it was just the work of some deranged missionary linguist but now that I know it's a native speaker, everything changes!
What's the language you speak if I may ask? Awesome that you speak one :)
@@Sundrobrocc Thank you, I speak Breton !
years ago I used to think these writing systems were cursed, but now I've seen enough of them it's just kinda "yeah, people use it I guess"
good video still
GRAF?????
yeah same here pretty much lol
Great video. You are maybe the only person I've ever seen talking about Saanich orthography online in a way that isn't snide and mocking. Personally, my main gripe with the Elliot System is similar to yours; it obscures the beautiful symmetry that is present in the Saanich phoneme inventory. As a hobby I once made up my own writing system for Saanich (or Sentṡaṣen, as it may be).
Many of my ideas were similar to yours, especially the marking of glottalisation with the apostrophe.
I also especially love your idea of using only one diacritic so that its shape doesn't matter as much; in my idea there are two possible diacritics, one above and one below, so only their position matters.
I cannot link anything here, but if you would like I can send you a link to my google doc via email or discord or any app really.
Here is the first sentence of the example you used, in my idea: Ewene sen e tṣe ew’ meḳw’ ełtelṅexw ḳw sni’s sḳw’ayes e tṣe xtṡṅins.
Thats's awesome and I love how it looks! My email is in my UA-cam bio, I'd love to see what you made in further detail :)
I understand that only having one case for SENĆOŦEN can be because 'A' and 'a' look very different and would require learning two shapes. But why not just use smaller uppercase? Aᴀ Bʙ Cᴄ Dᴅ Eᴇ ... they look identical but take up about the space of a lowercase letter. You also get the benefit of making proper nouns with a larger letter.
Interesting idea! The only issue would be further reduced compatibility with unicode (once you factor in the diacritics) but that's nothing that can't be fixed, I suppose
@@Sundrobrocc More of a reason for Unicode and fonts to support it better ;) ᴀ́ʙ́ᴄ́ᴅ́ᴇ́ - this works pretty well for me at least
I assume that small caps didn’t exist on old typewriters when the orthography was created? Correct me if I’m wrong
@@supernt7852 Oh right yes, it didn't really exist and he was limited by that. The closest would then be that small caps would be used in handwriting and then in computing later on. I guess it could be decided for now at least.
Ver nice ver nice.
Much enjoy third version, no diacritics one.
Personally, caseless scripts are aesthetic af.
Indigenous language preservation + crazy alphabet… this is the cocktail I like!
This is just really cool and interesting
x̣čít u cxʷ cə nəxʷsƛ̕ay̕əm̕úcən. Your pronunciation is good.
A quick note: The letter/sound ƛ (tɬ) isn’t used in Klallam, even though ƛ̕ (tɬ̕) is. However, ƛ does exist in the neighboring Wakashan languages, like Nuu-chah-nulth.
As a Klallam speaker and learner, SENĆOŦEN feels like an English speaker reading cyrillic.
Good video.
YOU SPEAK KLALLAM?? THAT'S SO SICK
I've actually been kinda interested in one day learning it because of some Klallam tongue twisters I found that sounded really cool (klallamlanguage.org/kttd.htm). Thanks so much for the comment and note! I'll add it to the description.
So I also tried "improving" it and the differences with your version are:
- /s̪/ instead of because, at least I, intuitively assign it to /ʃ/ and that's, infact, an other difference with my version
- I would switch and so that they would be pronounced /n/ and /ŋ/ respectively, again, because I think it's more intuitive
- this one is not that significant, instead of the acute on the , I'd use the polish letter for /w/ , no big deal (so /ɬ/ and /tɬʼ/ , , respectively
- / x̟ʷ/ , and /x̠/ and /x̠ʷ/ and respectively
- I think that the diphthongs /ej/, /əj/ and /əw/ should be written as , and because, for me, it's horrible having a consonant with an acute followed by another vowel with another acute
And here's the the first article of UDHR in Saanich with my suggestions (oh and yeah I remove the only caps thing):
Ewene san e tźe u' mekv' ełtelnehv kv sni's skv'ieź e tźe xcńins. U' xenenekvel tźe u' mekv' ełtalnehv e kv si'am'tens. Cśqvalekven tźe u' mekv' san. Ei' kv s'a'itens tźe u' mekv' san xven'iń e tźe sca'ce's.
And that's it, everything else stays the same as you suggested. Aside from the vowels, witch I found really interesting and kept it as they were, I know it differs from the original one, but as I said earlier these are just my opinions and nothing more. Also, it's a really good quality video, keep it up man :)
Interesting! IIRC /v/ isn't a sound in SENĆOŦEN which would make ‹v› perfect for an unambiguous labialization marker. Thanks for the comment :)
such a good video. your other videos have been recommended to me over time, and i didn't realize they were all you. Subbed. Great videos. they were all super well made and very interesting.
aww means so much :)
*pronounces nəxʷsƛ̕ay̕əmúcən effortlessly*
*pronounces the L in salmon*
jokes aside I really enjoyed the video :)
LOL I always pronounce the L in salmon-probably has to do with having grown up speaking Spanish
the L in salmon IS pronounced
HELL YEAH
Can you elaborate on your comment about specialized fonts? I believe all SENĆOŦEN characters can be rendered in many standard fonts with good Unicode coverage such as Arial, Times New Roman, Calibri, etc.
When I first mentioned fonts I was talking about those that were created during Elliott's time, coinciding with the dawn of commercial computers. We have many fonts _now_ that effectively represent SENĆOŦEN, but the second time I brought it up was to mention typability, since it's pretty hard to type letters like Ŧ in many cases unless you have a specific keyboard layout that allows you to do so
:O
Finally, a keyboard I’ve been looking for
Also great video and superscript letters are stupid as for an actual alphabet
Do a video about Rumanstsch a language dying in switzerland
I'll think about it!
This was great! The suggestions you made, especially when written in lowercase, give SENĆOŦEN a visual beauty which was previously hard to access for an outsider.
I do think SENĆOŦEN is incredibly beautiful as it is, especially considering Elliott's history!
K’
Amazing video! Subscribed
Wow that's pog
Well... sure, many phonemes are mapped questionably, but at least it didn't end up like the Tsalagi/Cherokee syllabary, where not a single character matches phonetically with its corresponding lookalike letter in the Latin alphabet.
At least the Cherokee orthography was also made by a Cherokee person, but yeah it's pretty hard.
@@Sundrobrocc Also in Sequoyah's defense, he hadn't learned to read the Latin alphabet first, he just thought the shapes were good enough to base his writing system on it. Still, not a single match is impressive statistically speaking!
Å
Ma’ dy fideos di yn wych!
Welsh?? That's SICK LOL tysM :)
That's SICCCCKKKKKKK
EGEH big upation
if it has to be a unicase alphabet it's better to make it all small letters instead of all caps
personally i believe that salishan languages (and others with similar phonology) should get their own script to avoid the problems with diacritics
that would be really cool ngl
Cool video! I don't intend to "☝️🤓", but you might find it interesting. Have you wondered why when you screenshot some text and zoom in you get those orange/bluish fringes around glyphs, like 0:30. It's because of subpixel rendering, which on Windows is called ClearType. If you want to not get them, you would need to disable it before taking a screenshot. Disabling it, would make text rendering uglier in general, but screenshots look nicer without ClearType ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not "☝️🤓" at all-I really appreciate it! Thing is, I'm on an Apple computer, so I don't rly know why that happens. It's never bothered me enough to the point where I tried fixing it, so idk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'll look into it though!
I like this fringes, they make screenshots looks more natural and funny.
not really related but id love to hear you talk about some small local european language like Sorbian languages or some little uralic Uralic language
That would be pretty cool! I've always loved languages like Elfdalian and the Sámi languages, so I could totally talk about them eventually
sayan Samoyedic langs could also be interesting to talk about, probably some of the most obscure Uralic languages
A few months ago when in my peak Siberian brainrot phase I also compiled a bunch of resources for the Ket language
Yoo that's sick I love finding resources for stuff
which font are you using for the big text? it looks like a rougher version of Peignot/MontereyFLF, and it looks quite nice
Brixton Sans :) Great font
From which country is that language from?
If I recall correctly it's from Canada
It's spoken in the Saanich Peninsula of southern Vancouver Island and around the strait of Georgia in Canada :)
Like it much
Just use Katakana please
On Jibble
latin alphabet but weird
Not really weird, just different. Very cool though
I would say that korean alphabet is the best. I really don't like any kind of latin alphabet. I don't know if my comment is related to the subject, but I couldn't resist.
تحياتي يا عزيزي
Great video! I live in Saanich, and I can attest that this alphabet is indeed very cool. You can see it in a lot of places around here, much more so than the other North Straits dialects from the Victoria area. From my experience, the hardest part of learning it is the four Ks, especially since G isn't used at all. The four Ts are also hard, but the fact that a stroke going through the T represents /θ/ in some way helps a lot. My ideas for how to improve the orthography would be to extend the loose rule that says a letter for a voiced sound in English represents an ejective in SENĆOŦEN, then rearrange the various Cs (/k/ is very rare, so I don't think it should be represented with a plain C), and clean up the vowels, particularly the two As and how ⟨U⟩ can sometimes represent /w/. Even with its flaws, though, I'm a big fan of Dave Elliott's work. He helped a unique, fascinating language have its own identity in written form when it could've easily just used NAPA or some other generic writing system, and I'm sure that the language would've been in even more dire straits without him.
I did think of that actually. My first draft of the suggestions featured ‹g› for /k’/ because of p/b and t/d, but I eventually preferred consistency with the sonorants and other ejectives.
Completely agree with your points about Dave Elliott! With limited resources, he created something that still lives on today and I'll always appreciate his work-he did a great job.
Curious how you'd feel if the vowels were Latinized, as in /ɑ/ representing A, /e/ representing E, etc.
I have multiple variants in mind:
A /ɑ/, Á /ɑi/, E /e/, É /ei/, I /i/, O /ə/, Ó /əu/, U /u/
A /ɑ/, Á /ɑi/, E /e/, É /ei/, I /i/, O /u/, Ó /əu/, U /ə/
A /ɑ/, Á /ei/, E /e/, É /ə/, I /i/, Í /ai/, O /əu/, U /u/
A /ɑ/, Á /ɑi/, E /e/, É /ei/, I /i/, O /əu/, U /u/, V /ə/
A /ɑ/, AI /ɑi/, E /e/, EI /ei/, I /i/, O /ə/, OU /əu/, U /u/
that's all I can think of.
Little late reply but honestly, to me, the most important part is that the sounds are consistent. I wouldn't necessarily push for this but I suppose I wouldn't mind if that's how things turned out ykwim
ɪ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ᴛʜᴇ ʟᴀᴛɪɴ ᴀʟᴘʜᴀʙᴇᴛ ᴡʀɪᴛᴛᴇɴ ᴏɴʟʏ ɪɴ ᴄᴀᴘɪᴛᴀʟ ʟᴇᴛᴛᴇʀs ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʟᴏᴏᴋ ᴍᴜᴄʜ ʙᴇᴛᴛᴇʀ, sᴜʀᴇ ɪᴛ ᴍɪɢʜᴛ ᴛᴀᴋᴇ ᴍᴏʀᴇ ᴛɪᴍᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴡʀɪᴛᴇ ᴀɴᴅ ᴘᴇᴏᴘʟᴇ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ᴡᴇ ᴀʀᴇ sʜᴏᴜᴛɪɴɢ, ʙᴜᴛ ᴛʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀ ʀᴇᴡᴀsᴏɴ ᴇxᴄʟᴀᴍᴀᴛɪᴏɴ ᴍᴀʀᴋs ᴇxɪsᴛ ᴀɴᴅ ᴡᴇ ᴀʀᴇ ʜᴜᴍᴀɴs ᴀɴᴅ ᴡᴇ ɢᴇᴛ ᴜsᴇᴅ ᴛᴏ ᴛʜɪɴɢs ᴇᴀsɪʟʏ
that was so hard to read in my inner speech without making a shouting voice... lmao
@@santy214gamer5 IDK, BUT I DIDN'T READ IT AS IF HE IS SHOUTING. MAYBE BECAUSE HE USED A DIFFERENT FONT TO WRITE IN ALL CAPS. BECAUSE I AM USING UA-cam'S USUAL FONT FOR ALL CAPS, MY COMMENT LOOKS LIKE I AM SHOUTING. BUT OP IS CORRECT, IF I DON'T INCLUDE EXCLAMATION MARKS, IT DOESN'T MEAN I AM SHOUTING!!!!
@@cerebrummaximus3762, Fr
My mind read that in one of pm Seymour's voices 😭
this could just be me as a tokiponist, but i think the latin alphabet written only in lowercase letters would look better.
you should have a look at Damin en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damin
I'll check it out