Nooo! Why don't you make /ŋɣ/ > /ŋ/, makes sense considering the Chinese influence and it'd make it very few ancient IE language to have /ŋ/ (other than avestan).
imagine he writes the rules down but deleted the video and a couple hundred later somebody finds the text with the rules and visits those places to find those "Prosian people"
Since it went down to the lowlands of China, you should have considered the Sprachbund nature of languages. That kind of crazy consonant clusters would also have been tonal at this point along with modern Chinese, Mon-khmer, Austroasiatic and Kra-Dai. If not tonal at least tone accented. But with the significance of the Chinese trade, the tonality is not hard to see being developed. The Tibetan branch is currently undergoing a shift to tonality with some dialects.
I was thinking about a theoretical Indo-European conlang for so long. The only thing i was finding was the "Proto-Carite" thing and now you make this video as long as i subscribed to you recently lol!
I worked on one years ago but never put any of it out. Proto-Levantine was its name, being most similar to the Anatolian languages. The plan was to create a modern version spoken in present day Turkey/Lebanon, written with the Arabic script. Just never got around to going that far.
Polish also differentiates /w/ and /v/. It's a fairly new innovation, speaking in linguistic timescales at least. The /w/ phoneme is written as (Ł ł) because it used to be pronounced more like a dark L /ɫ/. It started out as an allophone of /l/ and slowly diverged.
@@SKO_EN I mean the w > v pathway occured in every Modern language except English and the Celtic languages-Romanian also differentiates it, but w is from /u/ not /w/
For almost 2 years, I felt no real will to conlang, but with random inspiration in school and this video. I felt part of me come back to myself, so thank you for this awesome video! Edit: What’s sound change 37 called?
Im working on a IE conlang that is heavily influenced by bronze age semitic languages and other stuff, so the grammar is more like a mix od Arabic and Modern persian with unique innovation I actually hd one very influenced by chinese phonology as well, it was tonal
@@slimehound1934 ilHašuye ata ilmanduye witsakurye tasjadariš udwaš ata tasjadariš udilday qesahturye, ata tasjadariš atwaš udildHirt The horses and the two men with weapons saw up and saw to the sky of stars and saw down to the dirt.
@@cupidsnow3885 1: inu / ina (Masc. / Fem.) 2: tai / tī 3: trī / tidhri 4: pithwair /pithidhir 5: pimi 6: whis 7: ħitha 8: uthu 9: nawa 10: tixa & are /θ/ & /ð/ respectively. şef piza-yı wǖdhu unu-va rin-man-ızıt, ezai irthu domates-ikhu neiz ari Chef pizza-ACC white sole-ADV sell-HAB-3PST, she.DAT be.IMPF3 tomato-with not because 'The Chef was only selling the white pizza, because she didn't have any tomatoes.' lāwtha āruzl-e ħimar-ün trin-im bray-ızıt General Troops-DAT Speaking-whilst Sneezing-and Farted-3PST 'The General sneezed and farted whilst talking to the troops' & are /y/ and /ɯ/ respectively.
3:50 huh, that's interesting. i've never heard anyone pronouncing the "i" in "istanbul" as /ɯ/. it does go back slightly, but not that much. i wonder from where you got that this pronunciation is "very common" because i wanna make sure that i haven't been living in a bubble for all my life lmao edit: well, apparently that way of pronouncing used to be way more common around 40 years ago (my father mentions the speakers on TRT - the national television - when it used to be the only TV channel broadcasting). "diyarbakır" - another turkish city - also used to be pronounced with a back /ɯ/. i guess the younger generations tend to front that "i" more. that is really interesting.
Word İstanbul is non-Turkic origin. Diyarbakır is compound word and non-Turkic as well (Diyâr-Bekr). Vowel harmony only applies to Turkish suffixes. And loanwords can deviate. Diyarbakır can be pronounced diyarbekir in local accents. But the standart pronunciation is Diyarbakır. I don't think this is a generational difference.
As a Mandarin and English speaker, seeing an IE language written in Hanzi is sooooooooooo much fun. It helped me understand the adoption of Hanzi in non-ST languages.
the only use of "barrow" i can think of is "bleak falls barrow," an early game location in the elder scrolls v: skyrim. it's a dungeon that sits on a mountain, so the name fits.
Using native english words that fell out of use in earlier stages of the language is a clever way to create a sense of temporal and physical distance while at the same time still sounding familiar
Well done! However, I'd love to see some grammatical changes. Why's the word order exactly the same as in English? No influences of surrounding Sino-Tibetic languages?
i loved this video because im doing the exact same thing so this was so helpful, u should make more videos like this or even better turn it into a series!
9:05 Polish example should be "Piłka psa". Psia is an adjective similar to dog in "dog park" (park does not belong to dog, dog just describes what kind of park it is)
Loved the video! But I'd argue that the reason why galician and catalan converged to a more spanish-sounding fonetics is not "the desire to be close to one another", but the minorization of catalan and galician and the fact that they were forbidden for like ~40 years during the XXth century and (afaik) for ~250y Catalan since 1714
Mind blowing! Btw: The phonetic changes look to me as each generation needs to sound cooler than their parents, they make some sound shift. It's so cool to track them and reapply upon material from thousands of years ago.
A tour de force. This will be one of the videos I recommend to people to show the extreme level of knowledge and dedication to their art that conlangers can possess. But you do keep using the voiceless diacritic in place of the syllabic one!
12:49 you MORON! Chinese separates between the use of a number as a numeral vs. a noun! You HAVE to include the PARTICLE 个 in between six and the noun! Western liberals these days, they act like they know everything, and yet their ENTIRE body of knowledge COLLAPSES under a single tug. You're not just as bad as Bashar al-Assad, you're worse. Lol!
If you’re looking for Old Chinese influence then it’s perfectly fine not to have determiners. They were much more limited in distribution in the OC period. 😅
Wow this is some deep conlanging😮, I Also make conlangs, but I keep it simpler, cause I don't get all those complex IPA and sounds and change rules, allthoug I do have change patterns in some of my conlangs.
this video is just what i needed, thanks! i must ask what you site or list you use to see PIE verb and noun declensions because ive been unable to find a reliable one
in this case I would like to recommend, as an amateur, the one by Fortson and a series of essays called the handbook of comparative and historical indo european linguistics its very broad and gives a good sense of the scholarship as of recently
I'm also kinda working on an Indo-European conlang. And since I'm Russian-speaker myself it has pretty complex grammar, like six tenses (three perfect ones and three continious) with the same amount for passive voice therefore four infinitives and seven noun cases with three genders and three declensions (at least the only irregular verb is "to be" and the only weirdly declined nouns are first and second person pronouns: "I-we" and "thou-you"). But since I didn't follow the rules (or rather didn't really care that much how this or that action is actually called) of how the real world languages have evolved from P.I.E. the real Indo-European researchers would either laugh or look askance at me and my creation. Not like I even care though Anyway, what's about phonology - consonants at the beginning and the end of the words become voiceless while in the middle they're voiced (I bet no Indo-European language with this weird feature exists, I took it from Korean) and what about grammar - nouns can easily change their gender without the addition of unneccessary suffixes, especially inanimate nouns (which also isn't pretty much of an Indo-European thing), so, for example, a "car" can be masculine, feminine or neuter depending on the context. Since I've come with idea of this language being from a different world where neither Phoenicians nor Romans never existed it would use it's own alphabet consisting of about 80 letters, but it's not because it has that huge phonetic library rather because the diphtongs and consonant clusters are written with a single letter like we write "x" instead of "ks" or "gs" (but since I can't code I'm gonna write the example text with Latin script) And yeah, for now I use all this complexity only for one silly objective - singable translations of some songs. If anyone interested I can send here one of my translation And finally, the sample text (Schleicher's fable): (Ne-Sholli) na-Avfin mida sinfelsa feidifit theirof Eshof: prefos pordambit so-grafja Carra, tevdoros pherrembit so-masna Cravsa en theirdoros fesle pherrembit so-Sema. Sjek Avfin narrafit Esham: "sherjet mva Serda cham feidju che so-Semos podjet Éshosmi". Tham Eshy narrafeit kxn Ja: "slavze Avfi, naszdory Serdy jegsame sherjeit cham Semos, so-Bodis, sxnasdet eiz avfjena Felsa pher Selba ne-sall Fesdjmeit en Avfin manjet sinfelsa". Slavzife se Innarr Avfin pheigefit kxn Asre
I loosely based my conlang Alderi off of Germanic and Romance languages and ironically the word for "is" in Alderi is "sa" with the same pronunciation. When I first started on it 3 years ago I was making random words up as I needed them so it's not as near concise as Prosian is. The example sentence is "Seac fo debramanst tiifaftriiyanall deida kekonill sadna adnorad nean heivell." which roughly translates to "Six disturbed fighters did quickly dance around a well." Unfortunately, I don't know IPA so I can't give the proper pronunciation.
Really cool conlang! But just wanna point out that the majority of languages heavily influenced by Chinese are phonologically similar in some ways, i.e. monosyllabic, tonal and lack of consonant clusters, sometimes lack of voiced fricatives. Since you also imagined this language using Hanzi as their writing systems, there are some works can be done around this part as well. Let's start with your example sentence. Suppose the phonological changes are similar to Beijing Mandarin (other Sinitic languages don't follow the same paths + easier for me to analyze), Šeks becomes shài (-ks from Old Chinese tend to become the 4th tone, also Beijing Mandarin tend to pronounce -ek from Middle Chinese as ai). Mrtsi becomes qí, step 1: mr makes ts a voiced consonant ds, step 2: dsi becomes qí which is the change happened between Middle Chinese and Beijing Mandarin. Peü-teüües can be split into two words: peü and teüües. Peü might first change into püei, then feī (yes there's also a Chinese version of Grimm's Law but it's pu/bu --> f/v --> f). Teüües is a bit hard, but it can change into tües first, then tüè (-s becomes the 4th tone), then tail, tsiò, then qù or jù (q/j is determined by if the ts sound is aspirated or not). So for the first four words we have: shài qí fēi jù (or qù).
Another thing I wanna point out: there are many different words between Classical Chinese and modern written Chinese, which are mostly from Mandarin. For example, 了 as a particle did not exist in Early Middle Chinese. Instead, it's a grammaticalized version of verb 了 ("end/to end"), and was not used in formal written language until 20th century (although folk literature like novels/dramas/poems existed already). For a language that was heavily influenced by Chinese, its writing system must be consistent with the formal written language (i.e. Classical Chinese), which is the same reason why English didn't borrow words from Italian but Latin (although Italian words exist but not as formal/academic words). So the choice of semantic parts of these newly invented characters need to be restricted to be within Classical Chinese, while occasional Mandarin words exist but their meaning should be highly colloquial. For example, the Japanese word 俺 (ore) is an informal or even somewhat rude word to refer to "I/me", not used by aristocrats or intellectuals, but lower class workers. The kanji 俺 is borrowed from a Mandarin dialect meaning the same as wo ("I/me"), but since it's from a rural dialect, the word has a colloquial nature itself. Other than this example, the majority of Kanji match their meanings in Classical Chinese. For example, 走る means "to run" in both Japanese and Classical Chinese, but in Mandarin it means "to walk", as "to run" is replaced by another word 跑.
I can attest to this! Tsat, an Austronesian language spoken is Hainan, has reduced its syllables SIGNIFICANTLY and developed tones from Chinese contact.
By the way, is there a list somewhere compiling the sound changes of Middle Chinese's consonant clusters into Modern Mandarin Chinese? That would be very interesting to look at :)
@@WannzKaswan well, historic linguistics for Chinese is a lot more complicated, because A) no language is ever studied as much as English and B) Chinese doesn't write down sounds
That was fun. I didn't catch at what point did your language split from PIE. Did it share much significant history with Germanic or went straight East. If they were walking through Persia to China they would probably accumulate a lot of borrowings from languages along the way (like Romani/Gypsy did), probably some early Indo-Iranian at least, and maybe some Turkic and/or Mongolic.
as a historical linguistics enjoyer this is bringing tears to my eyes I love it so much interesting how at 18:36 you've gone with 她, Mandarin tā "her", as the word for "the", any reasoning behind that?
@@TheRealVenusian I like that, since a lot of IE articles developed from demonstratives anyway. 彼 or 是 would also be good options for transcription since they're demonstratives in Classical Chinese. I like how fast it becomes apparent why Korean and Japanese eventually had to innovate to represent speech in writing. Would love to see what Prosian does with regard to productive prefixes and suffixes
Mexican watchers at 2:58: "Ah, yes, it's all coming together". 4:47 just confirms my point. P.D.: "verga" in Spanish is a vulgar word refered to penis. "Vergas" would be the plural form, and Mexicans are very creative with how to use it nowadays.
I wanted to do it so badly, i just threw japonic out of there (rip japonic, not missing you since i dislike it) and made the japanic branxh but i couldn't get enough info on Proto-Indo-European (probably didnt look hard enough tho), but i still am making some stuff toward it
Quite easy actually. First, pick an Indo-European speaking folk. Then divide them into factions by religion, geography or political motives. After that, wait a few centuries. Voalla! You have different nations with different (at least not completely same) languages.
You can’t say 和你也会 in Chinese. That Chinese in the video panel doesn’t mean “and you can too”, because 和 is a connector for nouns not sentences. The word for “and” that links sentences is 而且, or just a pause. So it should just be 你也会, or 而且你也会, or 你也做得到, etc.
@@zzineohp I came down here looking for this comment lol. I agree it would have made more sense for Prosian to have taken a character that more directly means "and", since the use of 和 to link nouns in Mandarin is derived from a more fundamental meaning having to do with harmony, summing, etc., and is not even a common feature shared with most other Chinese languages. If Prosian were a real language developing near China, it probably would have taken a character like 且 to transcribe "kye", and indeed you can find 且 having this meaning when used in Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese, at least according to Wiktionary. I could also see 及 or 與 having done this historically. But definitely you can make up any justification you want for 和, it's your language and you can do whatever you want with it. Just a little odd for its writing system to have been borrowed from modern Mandarin. Though I suppose if we're really going to get down to historical plausibility, a lot of non-Chinese languages in that region you placed it in use a Brahmic related script anyway. And it's a great language you made, very cool, way beyond my abilities!
Is there a source that lists PIE suffixes and shows what grade they put the root into? Like, how do you know that *-os puts the root into e-grade and *-sḱóror puts the root into zero-grade?
The polish example "psia piłka" is kinda weird. Its technically correct, but no polidh person ever would say "psia piłka" as the dogs ball. We would say piłka psa, that example you said sounds more like a name of something, i dont really know how ro explain it
@@zzineohp it would most naturally occur as a proper name, maybe of a dog toy, but I don't really know what case it is being a native speaker. Gotta love not knowing what case is a word in my native Language
In my village (in Galicia) we definitely say "psia buda", "psia miska", etc. "Psia piłka" doesn't sound weird to me at all. The only problem is that grammatically it doesn't fit the pattern he was trying to portray in the video, but on it's own it's ok. Actually "piłka psa" sounds stranger to me.
@@zzineohp don't spend it all at once I guess..? but seriously this content looks like a ton of work, I hope you'll be able to generate some kind of revenue from it soon 😅
How about consider the Chinese influence on grammar on syntax since the Middle Ages, because educated people of Prosian society should certainly know Middle Chinese language and incorporate its features in their native language?
Hey man that's an idea but the video is called "How to make an Indo-European language" not "how to make a Chinese language that's ultimately descended from PIE"
Small nitpick about the thumbnail, the clause “和你也会” might be slightly incorrect, as far as I know “和” is for objects on a list and not a conjunction between clauses, so I think “而” would be better suited to translate "and" . But hey, probably nobody else cares lol
@@zzineohp that's sad :/ but it would still be doable right? or maybe even making a descendant from Proto-Ugric or Samoyedic could work 🤔 I might look into it
Is there somewhere I can find the sound changes that occurred between OE, ME and modern? I’m trying to use more words of germanic origin in my speech, and need it to ‘modernize’ some words that disappeared.
I’ve taken a look at your sound changes spreadsheet just now, and the masculine and feminine nouns one seems controversial to me as sound changes do not pay attention to the grammar at all.
You mentioned at around 14:23, that there are some sound shifts, that hit multiple branches of the IE language family. Could you share some references to what these are?
Well, the sound e makes being changed depending on a laryngeal it's next to (Universal); when the root ends with t/d/dh and the suffix starts with it, the letter s is inserted between the 2 (Universal); Centumization (Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Hellenic) or Satemization (Balto-Slavic, Indo-Aryan, Iranian); Labiovelars become plain labials (Italic, Celtic, Germanic); Syllabic sonorants insert an a before a laryngeal-sonorant cluster (Celtic, Hellenic); Final m > n (Hellenic, Germanic); kw > kʷ (Slavic, Hellenic, Italic); debuccalization of word-initial s (Hellenic, Iranian); fortition of w into v (Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Slavic); Vocalization of word-initial laryngeals (Hellenic, Armenian). That sort of thing.
Nooo! Why don't you make /ŋɣ/ > /ŋ/, makes sense considering the Chinese influence and it'd make it very few ancient IE language to have /ŋ/ (other than avestan).
The Indo-Aryan branch also retained /ŋ/ for some time iirc
@5:59 After rule #69, #70 is D - softening. Truly poetic.
Art imitating Life.
imagine he writes the rules down but deleted the video and a couple hundred later somebody finds the text with the rules and visits those places to find those "Prosian people"
ah yes, my favorite PIE branch: Germano-Tibetan
it's more like a sino-aryan
Gotta love it
Ernst Schafer moment
@@berndlauert8179 you mean Sino-Iranian, no?
why not dene-caucasian..?
9:07 "psia" isn't the genitive of pies, it's the adjective. The genitive would be "psa", and it would come after the possessee
15:26 you could also have designed it such that it picks up a loan from some proto-tibetan language or old chinese
Since it went down to the lowlands of China, you should have considered the Sprachbund nature of languages. That kind of crazy consonant clusters would also have been tonal at this point along with modern Chinese, Mon-khmer, Austroasiatic and Kra-Dai.
If not tonal at least tone accented. But with the significance of the Chinese trade, the tonality is not hard to see being developed.
The Tibetan branch is currently undergoing a shift to tonality with some dialects.
It has pitch accent
I was thinking about a theoretical Indo-European conlang for so long. The only thing i was finding was the "Proto-Carite" thing and now you make this video as long as i subscribed to you recently lol!
me to!!!
I worked on one years ago but never put any of it out. Proto-Levantine was its name, being most similar to the Anatolian languages. The plan was to create a modern version spoken in present day Turkey/Lebanon, written with the Arabic script. Just never got around to going that far.
Polish also differentiates /w/ and /v/. It's a fairly new innovation, speaking in linguistic timescales at least. The /w/ phoneme is written as (Ł ł) because it used to be pronounced more like a dark L /ɫ/. It started out as an allophone of /l/ and slowly diverged.
You know that's not what I meant
@@zzineohp I don't. Can you clarify?
@@SKO_EN I mean the w > v pathway occured in every Modern language except English and the Celtic languages-Romanian also differentiates it, but w is from /u/ not /w/
@@zzineohp Interesting, that makes more sense!
@@zzineohp If I am not mistaken Ossetic still keeps PIE /w/ in certain contexts. :)
One of my favourite quotes ever "WOAH WOAH WOAH, DON'T PUT THAT THROUGH GRIMM'S LAW"
All this work, and he could've just used Tocharian
so true he
💀
Fr
For almost 2 years, I felt no real will to conlang, but with random inspiration in school and this video. I felt part of me come back to myself, so thank you for this awesome video!
Edit: What’s sound change 37 called?
Im working on a IE conlang that is heavily influenced by bronze age semitic languages and other stuff, so the grammar is more like a mix od Arabic and Modern persian with unique innovation
I actually hd one very influenced by chinese phonology as well, it was tonal
Will you share it somewhere?
@@slimehound1934 so far its rather rudimentary and I havent too much time recently, but i will post a sample
@@slimehound1934 ilHašuye ata ilmanduye witsakurye tasjadariš udwaš ata tasjadariš udilday qesahturye, ata tasjadariš atwaš udildHirt
The horses and the two men with weapons saw up and saw to the sky of stars and saw down to the dirt.
I’m working on a Middle Eastern continuation of Gaulish atm
can u give a sample text and numbers it would surely be interesting
yes, can you show a sample?
So basically what if Galatian survived?
Galatian?
@@cupidsnow3885
1: inu / ina (Masc. / Fem.)
2: tai / tī
3: trī / tidhri
4: pithwair /pithidhir
5: pimi
6: whis
7: ħitha
8: uthu
9: nawa
10: tixa
& are /θ/ & /ð/ respectively.
şef piza-yı wǖdhu unu-va rin-man-ızıt, ezai irthu domates-ikhu neiz ari
Chef pizza-ACC white sole-ADV sell-HAB-3PST, she.DAT be.IMPF3 tomato-with not because
'The Chef was only selling the white pizza, because she didn't have any tomatoes.'
lāwtha āruzl-e ħimar-ün trin-im bray-ızıt
General Troops-DAT Speaking-whilst Sneezing-and Farted-3PST
'The General sneezed and farted whilst talking to the troops'
& are /y/ and /ɯ/ respectively.
I would love a video covering all the sound changes from PIE to English! sounds very interesting
3:50 huh, that's interesting. i've never heard anyone pronouncing the "i" in "istanbul" as /ɯ/. it does go back slightly, but not that much. i wonder from where you got that this pronunciation is "very common" because i wanna make sure that i haven't been living in a bubble for all my life lmao
edit: well, apparently that way of pronouncing used to be way more common around 40 years ago (my father mentions the speakers on TRT - the national television - when it used to be the only TV channel broadcasting). "diyarbakır" - another turkish city - also used to be pronounced with a back /ɯ/. i guess the younger generations tend to front that "i" more. that is really interesting.
That makes sense, linguist tend to be about a generation behind at all times
Word İstanbul is non-Turkic origin. Diyarbakır is compound word and non-Turkic as well (Diyâr-Bekr). Vowel harmony only applies to Turkish suffixes. And loanwords can deviate.
Diyarbakır can be pronounced diyarbekir in local accents. But the standart pronunciation is Diyarbakır. I don't think this is a generational difference.
@@alpers.2123Istanbul is of Greek origin (στην Πόλιν) not Islambol
@@Bepples You are right. Islambol was historically used as an example of phonosemantic matching.
It would be really cool of you added hints of Sinofication, replacing PIE derived words with mandarin chinese loan words.
Im definitely gonna try to do that, but in this video I'm mostly focusing on the journey from PIE
@@zzineohp huzzah, the patrons and merchant-lords, once again, exercise their power effectively
As a Mandarin and English speaker, seeing an IE language written in Hanzi is sooooooooooo much fun. It helped me understand the adoption of Hanzi in non-ST languages.
the only use of "barrow" i can think of is "bleak falls barrow," an early game location in the elder scrolls v: skyrim. it's a dungeon that sits on a mountain, so the name fits.
I had the same thought!
Also the "barrow downs" in LotR
I’m glad I’m not the only one
Because "barrow" also means "burial mound"
Using native english words that fell out of use in earlier stages of the language is a clever way to create a sense of temporal and physical distance while at the same time still sounding familiar
Psia is the feminine nominative of psi, which is a possessive adjective, psa would be the genitive singular of pies.
came here to say the same thing, "psia" is an adjective
Ima be honest I understood very little of what you’re talking about but I am still fascinated
Well done! However, I'd love to see some grammatical changes. Why's the word order exactly the same as in English? No influences of surrounding Sino-Tibetic languages?
Well I was going to include an adjective for well but the video was already too long
we don't have a very good idea of what common sino-tibetan syntax and grammar actually looked like, no?
i loved this video because im doing the exact same thing so this was so helpful, u should make more videos like this or even better turn it into a series!
I really like your video. I am planning for my worldbuilding cultures and languages. Thanks for giving me a tutorial for an Indo-European conlang!
wonderful video, genuinely!
9:05 Polish example should be "Piłka psa". Psia is an adjective similar to dog in "dog park" (park does not belong to dog, dog just describes what kind of park it is)
Loved the video! But I'd argue that the reason why galician and catalan converged to a more spanish-sounding fonetics is not "the desire to be close to one another", but the minorization of catalan and galician and the fact that they were forbidden for like ~40 years during the XXth century and (afaik) for ~250y Catalan since 1714
Mind blowing! Btw: The phonetic changes look to me as each generation needs to sound cooler than their parents, they make some sound shift. It's so cool to track them and reapply upon material from thousands of years ago.
A tour de force. This will be one of the videos I recommend to people to show the extreme level of knowledge and dedication to their art that conlangers can possess.
But you do keep using the voiceless diacritic in place of the syllabic one!
Don't like the syllabic one
You should make a video overviewing what turned PIE into Prosian, it would be a nice idea. And maybe also do it for all of the Virhomenian languages…
Was legit rhinking about a PIE conlang yesterday, glad you exist
I love the ambiguity of the English "we" because when he said 'we' (3:25 referring to linguists), I got to imagine myself in that category 😊
12:49 you MORON! Chinese separates between the use of a number as a numeral vs. a noun! You HAVE to include the PARTICLE 个 in between six and the noun! Western liberals these days, they act like they know everything, and yet their ENTIRE body of knowledge COLLAPSES under a single tug. You're not just as bad as Bashar al-Assad, you're worse. Lol!
If you’re looking for Old Chinese influence then it’s perfectly fine not to have determiners. They were much more limited in distribution in the OC period. 😅
Moreover Old Chinese had crazy syllable structure much in line with other Sino-Tibetan languages! CCCCCVCC seems perfectly feasible. 😅
bruh I'm in a discord server for people doing IE langs and it feels just like that lol
Meds? somebody call hospital.
But the optative is so cool :(
'oh my god, that was a rush' after having speed-run the forming of 'six' was hilarious, I love your sense of humour LMAO
3:00 *giggles in argentinian*
Are you going to make a Swadesh List for Prosian?
I have never truly felt such great amusement from the Great Vowel Shift alone!
I like your funny words magic man
Wow this is some deep conlanging😮, I Also make conlangs, but I keep it simpler, cause I don't get all those complex IPA and sounds and change rules, allthoug I do have change patterns in some of my conlangs.
w better call saul reference. btw love the speed you talk at
this video is just what i needed, thanks! i must ask what you site or list you use to see PIE verb and noun declensions because ive been unable to find a reliable one
in this case I would like to recommend, as an amateur, the one by Fortson and a series of essays called the handbook of comparative and historical indo european linguistics its very broad and gives a good sense of the scholarship as of recently
Phonetically Prosian sounds a bit like the eastern Slovenian dialect Prekmurian.
If you put him saying the final result on 1.5x speed, it sounds way more naturally native
Very smart, you earned another subscriber
I'm also kinda working on an Indo-European conlang. And since I'm Russian-speaker myself it has pretty complex grammar, like six tenses (three perfect ones and three continious) with the same amount for passive voice therefore four infinitives and seven noun cases with three genders and three declensions (at least the only irregular verb is "to be" and the only weirdly declined nouns are first and second person pronouns: "I-we" and "thou-you"). But since I didn't follow the rules (or rather didn't really care that much how this or that action is actually called) of how the real world languages have evolved from P.I.E. the real Indo-European researchers would either laugh or look askance at me and my creation. Not like I even care though
Anyway, what's about phonology - consonants at the beginning and the end of the words become voiceless while in the middle they're voiced (I bet no Indo-European language with this weird feature exists, I took it from Korean) and what about grammar - nouns can easily change their gender without the addition of unneccessary suffixes, especially inanimate nouns (which also isn't pretty much of an Indo-European thing), so, for example, a "car" can be masculine, feminine or neuter depending on the context. Since I've come with idea of this language being from a different world where neither Phoenicians nor Romans never existed it would use it's own alphabet consisting of about 80 letters, but it's not because it has that huge phonetic library rather because the diphtongs and consonant clusters are written with a single letter like we write "x" instead of "ks" or "gs" (but since I can't code I'm gonna write the example text with Latin script)
And yeah, for now I use all this complexity only for one silly objective - singable translations of some songs. If anyone interested I can send here one of my translation
And finally, the sample text (Schleicher's fable):
(Ne-Sholli) na-Avfin mida sinfelsa feidifit theirof Eshof: prefos pordambit so-grafja Carra, tevdoros pherrembit so-masna Cravsa en theirdoros fesle pherrembit so-Sema. Sjek Avfin narrafit Esham: "sherjet mva Serda cham feidju che so-Semos podjet Éshosmi". Tham Eshy narrafeit kxn Ja: "slavze Avfi, naszdory Serdy jegsame sherjeit cham Semos, so-Bodis, sxnasdet eiz avfjena Felsa pher Selba ne-sall Fesdjmeit en Avfin manjet sinfelsa". Slavzife se Innarr Avfin pheigefit kxn Asre
This is the modern form of Tocharian and you won't convince me otherwise.
I loosely based my conlang Alderi off of Germanic and Romance languages and ironically the word for "is" in Alderi is "sa" with the same pronunciation. When I first started on it 3 years ago I was making random words up as I needed them so it's not as near concise as Prosian is. The example sentence is "Seac fo debramanst tiifaftriiyanall deida kekonill sadna adnorad nean heivell." which roughly translates to "Six disturbed fighters did quickly dance around a well." Unfortunately, I don't know IPA so I can't give the proper pronunciation.
Really cool conlang! But just wanna point out that the majority of languages heavily influenced by Chinese are phonologically similar in some ways, i.e. monosyllabic, tonal and lack of consonant clusters, sometimes lack of voiced fricatives. Since you also imagined this language using Hanzi as their writing systems, there are some works can be done around this part as well.
Let's start with your example sentence. Suppose the phonological changes are similar to Beijing Mandarin (other Sinitic languages don't follow the same paths + easier for me to analyze), Šeks becomes shài (-ks from Old Chinese tend to become the 4th tone, also Beijing Mandarin tend to pronounce -ek from Middle Chinese as ai). Mrtsi becomes qí, step 1: mr makes ts a voiced consonant ds, step 2: dsi becomes qí which is the change happened between Middle Chinese and Beijing Mandarin. Peü-teüües can be split into two words: peü and teüües. Peü might first change into püei, then feī (yes there's also a Chinese version of Grimm's Law but it's pu/bu --> f/v --> f). Teüües is a bit hard, but it can change into tües first, then tüè (-s becomes the 4th tone), then tail, tsiò, then qù or jù (q/j is determined by if the ts sound is aspirated or not). So for the first four words we have: shài qí fēi jù (or qù).
Another thing I wanna point out: there are many different words between Classical Chinese and modern written Chinese, which are mostly from Mandarin. For example, 了 as a particle did not exist in Early Middle Chinese. Instead, it's a grammaticalized version of verb 了 ("end/to end"), and was not used in formal written language until 20th century (although folk literature like novels/dramas/poems existed already). For a language that was heavily influenced by Chinese, its writing system must be consistent with the formal written language (i.e. Classical Chinese), which is the same reason why English didn't borrow words from Italian but Latin (although Italian words exist but not as formal/academic words). So the choice of semantic parts of these newly invented characters need to be restricted to be within Classical Chinese, while occasional Mandarin words exist but their meaning should be highly colloquial. For example, the Japanese word 俺 (ore) is an informal or even somewhat rude word to refer to "I/me", not used by aristocrats or intellectuals, but lower class workers. The kanji 俺 is borrowed from a Mandarin dialect meaning the same as wo ("I/me"), but since it's from a rural dialect, the word has a colloquial nature itself. Other than this example, the majority of Kanji match their meanings in Classical Chinese. For example, 走る means "to run" in both Japanese and Classical Chinese, but in Mandarin it means "to walk", as "to run" is replaced by another word 跑.
well in this video I tried to focus on IE influence, that's the whole point of it anyways
I can attest to this! Tsat, an Austronesian language spoken is Hainan, has reduced its syllables SIGNIFICANTLY and developed tones from Chinese contact.
By the way, is there a list somewhere compiling the sound changes of Middle Chinese's consonant clusters into Modern Mandarin Chinese? That would be very interesting to look at :)
@@WannzKaswan well, historic linguistics for Chinese is a lot more complicated, because A) no language is ever studied as much as English and B) Chinese doesn't write down sounds
the fact you referenced neu! in that spreadsheet
That was fun. I didn't catch at what point did your language split from PIE. Did it share much significant history with Germanic or went straight East. If they were walking through Persia to China they would probably accumulate a lot of borrowings from languages along the way (like Romani/Gypsy did), probably some early Indo-Iranian at least, and maybe some Turkic and/or Mongolic.
well, that's a later video, in this one i really wanted to focus on PIE
😂 “You can’t just Irish Goodbye your way out of PIE.”
Missed opportunity to create unique Hanzi for Prosian words, akin to Chữ Nôm.
Edit: Just saw the follow-up video, and... I have a couple of notes.
I always want to do something like this but i dont know everything about Proto-Indo-European grammar and vocabulary.
2:20 this crazy guy sure did have an interest with a Werner
5:00 spanish speakers
I laughted wen you said bérgaz. People who speak spanish will understand. Nice video anyway.
as a historical linguistics enjoyer this is bringing tears to my eyes I love it so much
interesting how at 18:36 you've gone with 她, Mandarin tā "her", as the word for "the", any reasoning behind that?
Well, Mandarin doesn't have articles, I just picked the word closest to "Female Thing"
I could see 个 as an alternative
@@zzineohp or maybe you could get close to an article by having a demonstrative, so 这 "this" or 那 "that"?
@@zzineohp yeah Mandarin hasn't got articles, hence my confusion haha
@@TheRealVenusian I like that, since a lot of IE articles developed from demonstratives anyway. 彼 or 是 would also be good options for transcription since they're demonstratives in Classical Chinese. I like how fast it becomes apparent why Korean and Japanese eventually had to innovate to represent speech in writing. Would love to see what Prosian does with regard to productive prefixes and suffixes
This language sounds like it would be spoken by Kratos.
Ah, yes, alternate timeline Tocharian lol.
i did this but i literally made up random rules and took words off of the wikipedia page for PIE words lol
Of all the conlang showcases I’ve seen…
Please don't yell "stop" so loudly, I was in my headphones, and my ears genuinely hurt...
dunno why but this gives mad Jreg vibes, still a good conlang tho
Jreggin these
Mexican watchers at 2:58:
"Ah, yes, it's all coming together".
4:47 just confirms my point.
P.D.: "verga" in Spanish is a vulgar word refered to penis. "Vergas" would be the plural form, and Mexicans are very creative with how to use it nowadays.
13:04 fug :DDD
ehehehe
if it had completely went through grims law pug would have become... fuk
Where did you get the list of rules to go from PIE to English? And are there lists for other PIE languages?
Sounds closer to the European branch of IE than the Indo-Iranian branch.
I wanted to do it so badly, i just threw japonic out of there (rip japonic, not missing you since i dislike it) and made the japanic branxh but i couldn't get enough info on Proto-Indo-European (probably didnt look hard enough tho), but i still am making some stuff toward it
fellow flop
@@cupidsnow3885 yass
Quite easy actually. First, pick an Indo-European speaking folk. Then divide them into factions by religion, geography or political motives. After that, wait a few centuries. Voalla! You have different nations with different (at least not completely same) languages.
You forgot about Cole's Law!!
You will need cabbage in order to do it tho
unfortunately there is no way to tell if this comment is satire or not
You can’t say 和你也会 in Chinese. That Chinese in the video panel doesn’t mean “and you can too”, because 和 is a connector for nouns not sentences. The word for “and” that links sentences is 而且, or just a pause. So it should just be 你也会, or 而且你也会, or 你也做得到, etc.
It isn't Chinese it's Prosian. Prosian uses the same word for both uses, so it uses the same character to represent the word.
@@zzineohp I came down here looking for this comment lol. I agree it would have made more sense for Prosian to have taken a character that more directly means "and", since the use of 和 to link nouns in Mandarin is derived from a more fundamental meaning having to do with harmony, summing, etc., and is not even a common feature shared with most other Chinese languages. If Prosian were a real language developing near China, it probably would have taken a character like 且 to transcribe "kye", and indeed you can find 且 having this meaning when used in Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese, at least according to Wiktionary. I could also see 及 or 與 having done this historically.
But definitely you can make up any justification you want for 和, it's your language and you can do whatever you want with it. Just a little odd for its writing system to have been borrowed from modern Mandarin. Though I suppose if we're really going to get down to historical plausibility, a lot of non-Chinese languages in that region you placed it in use a Brahmic related script anyway. And it's a great language you made, very cool, way beyond my abilities!
@@chrishealy1679 aaaahhh the only Chinese language i know is Mandarin, why does everything have to be so complicaaaaateeeeed
@@zzineohp you should try some classical chinese some time, it's a trip ;)
@@chrishealy1679there are also a longggg list of other concerns if you’re going for historical plausibility
barrow isn't nearly non existent, we still have things named it in england
Is there a source that lists PIE suffixes and shows what grade they put the root into? Like, how do you know that *-os puts the root into e-grade and *-sḱóror puts the root into zero-grade?
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Proto-Indo-European_suffixes
I’m thinking of an Afroasiatic conlang written with Hanzi, though with the lack of consensus for the PAA phonology…
well it might be easier to start from Proto-Semitic, that was actually spoke around the same as PIE
Not 和你也会 but 你也可以
The thumbnail is written in Prosian. Not Mandarin Chinese.
The polish example "psia piłka" is kinda weird. Its technically correct, but no polidh person ever would say "psia piłka" as the dogs ball. We would say piłka psa, that example you said sounds more like a name of something, i dont really know how ro explain it
That makes sense, because psia is apparently not the Genitive
@@zzineohp it would most naturally occur as a proper name, maybe of a dog toy, but I don't really know what case it is being a native speaker. Gotta love not knowing what case is a word in my native Language
@@zzineohp psia is a feminine adjective meaning "canine" or "dog" like in "dog food"
In my village (in Galicia) we definitely say "psia buda", "psia miska", etc. "Psia piłka" doesn't sound weird to me at all. The only problem is that grammatically it doesn't fit the pattern he was trying to portray in the video, but on it's own it's ok. Actually "piłka psa" sounds stranger to me.
@@milobem4458 well I think it can depend on the person, but also region, I personally live in Częstochowa
Now that you have a stable income through UA-cam it's time to finally upgrade your recording equipment!
Good mic options for $0.04?
@@zzineohp don't spend it all at once I guess..? but seriously this content looks like a ton of work, I hope you'll be able to generate some kind of revenue from it soon 😅
You explained nothing basically...
Where are the sources to other sound changes? Like how you got the changes in Prosian?
Wikipedia. You can search up sound changes
@@đœwæþ what about indo iranian? Theres nothing useful (if i remember correctly)+
@@ChrisW101 there's indo Iranian sound changes too
@@đœwæþ cant findem, idec anymore
Spanish-speaking people reaching proto-Germanic: 🤨
Now I get why Lithuanian and Latvian are so cursed.
Oh yeah, A posteriori conlangs. The notoriously difficult kind. Making up your own sound changes and applying them to PIE? Naaah, too much work.
Ah yes, an Indo-European language using Chinese characters
Sounds like how Tocharian would be if they were not extinct and is perpetuated till now
How about consider the Chinese influence on grammar on syntax since the Middle Ages, because educated people of Prosian society should certainly know Middle Chinese language and incorporate its features in their native language?
Hey man that's an idea but the video is called "How to make an Indo-European language" not "how to make a Chinese language that's ultimately descended from PIE"
@@zzineohp yes, I got it. Just a suggestion
As a Spanish speaker the begging of video was really funny
13:07 I genuinely cackled
You could have made it more Chinese with few simple changes like actually saying Lüen
How do I know which sound changes can occur? Is there like a list of PIE sound changes?
Small nitpick about the thumbnail, the clause “和你也会” might be slightly incorrect, as far as I know “和” is for objects on a list and not a conjunction between clauses, so I think “而” would be better suited to translate "and" . But hey, probably nobody else cares lol
Oh no lots of people care. But Prosian only has one word for and, and it uses the same character for both contexts
@@zzineohp So Prosian uses 汉字 like how Japanese got a bunch of kanji to package up some roughly similar-meaning words?
失业的语言学家？我也是xswl
我希望你用过文言文的词，文言文非常有趣……
Jesus wept, this is magic
A technical issue - please, balance the volume level of a video next time, + it's very quiet in yhe headphones. Thanks
Interesting stuff
I wonder how doing something like this but from Proto-Uralic would look like
Probably less interesting, we know a lot less about Proto-Uralic
@@zzineohp that's sad :/ but it would still be doable right?
or maybe even making a descendant from Proto-Ugric or Samoyedic could work 🤔 I might look into it
Is your list of rules unique to Prosian, or is it a more general list from which you picked the ones you likes? I couldn't really follow that part...
i made em up
Do you have any good sources on Proto-IE?
Ahhh.....Why do I end up here?
The final translation sounds like an Albanian/Baltic language with East Slavic influence...
Is there somewhere I can find the sound changes that occurred between OE, ME and modern? I’m trying to use more words of germanic origin in my speech, and need it to ‘modernize’ some words that disappeared.
i left my resources in the description. Also if you didn't already know there's a community for that at r/Anglish
I’ve taken a look at your sound changes spreadsheet just now, and the masculine and feminine nouns one seems controversial to me as sound changes do not pay attention to the grammar at all.
You mentioned at around 14:23, that there are some sound shifts, that hit multiple branches of the IE language family. Could you share some references to what these are?
Well, the sound e makes being changed depending on a laryngeal it's next to (Universal); when the root ends with t/d/dh and the suffix starts with it, the letter s is inserted between the 2 (Universal); Centumization (Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Hellenic) or Satemization (Balto-Slavic, Indo-Aryan, Iranian); Labiovelars become plain labials (Italic, Celtic, Germanic); Syllabic sonorants insert an a before a laryngeal-sonorant cluster (Celtic, Hellenic); Final m > n (Hellenic, Germanic); kw > kʷ (Slavic, Hellenic, Italic); debuccalization of word-initial s (Hellenic, Iranian); fortition of w into v (Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Slavic); Vocalization of word-initial laryngeals (Hellenic, Armenian). That sort of thing.
@@zzineohp Thanks a lot! ^-^