Actually I probably could tell because of velocity curves . The faster a drummer does double bass drum kicks for example, the easier it is to tell because the hits will get ever so softer. It's physics in action. That's what makes acoustic drums sound musical vs electric or triggered drums, when you take away natural variations in velocity you take away the soul of the drummer. Sure you could go in and have the DAW randomize the track and get close but you're not getting the drummer's actual variations which is what defines a lot of their style, not just the fills they do or their groove, it's all tied together. So yeah, as a drummer for many many years and hearing records change from analog to digital I can usually spot fake drums. Real is better, there's no debate in that and why drummers got scared of their kick drums getting softer as they went faster is beyond me, I'd have to think it was some soulless engineer who had the brain damaged thought that all the drum hits should be at the exact same volume, like somehow drum machines became the ideal of perfection? Wtf? I want to hear when a drummer goes into an insane fast double kick that the kicks get softer because they're really straining to make those hits and that just adds that much more tension to something that's building in intensity, you want to feel and hear the effort that's going into playing those really difficult parts, man it just makes you grit your teeth more and feel the emotion in the playing coming across, you don't fucking get that with triggered, sampled drums. I'll give you what I think is one of the best examples of why you don't need to trigger drums and how much better a real micd up drum kit is and why it's the standard of standards, the greatest and best way to record. Mike Portnoy. He's never once, to my knowledge, ever used triggers on an album! listen to anything he's done with Dream Theater, Neal Morse, Liquid Tension, Transatlantic etc and so on...he doesn't use triggers, he knows and understands you want all those variations in there, it's what defines you as a drummer, it's what gives motion to music and feeling, don't let a fucking machine take your soul man!! What you end up with is what we have now, especially in the metal world, souless, cookie cutter digital garbage recordings, all sound the same with very few exceptions. 🤘😜🤘
@@therealeleusis In images and words drums are triggered, I read the producer wanted triggers to have a more defined sound a-la Metallica or Motley Crue (it was 1992 by the way), Portnoy hated the idea but accepted and since Awake drums have always been real (for him at least, don't know Mangini)... In Images thought the drum sound was fascinating, at least for me that I was a kid when I discovered them in mid 90, it had some kind of progressive metal sound that defined an era for future metal drummers (especially in power metal and progressive metal)
@@Syklonus - drums you absolutely can. there's a huge reason most modern recordings sound so boring and similar, because they all lean on the same drum tones that help bands sound like they have huge, big money drum production on the quick & easy. I miss the days when you would put on a CD and hear different drums across an album, sometimes even across a song. not to mention that drum stacking and tracking with a computerized velocity path also makes so many modern recordings sound the same because the dynamics get sucked out of a real performance.
Short answer, YES!. You cannot compare acoustic to e-drums no matter what anyone says. I owned the very latest TD50x K2 set with all the digital blah blah. It was a great set, and I even spent a LOT of time getting THE sound I wanted, including making a brush set (which none exist on it from Roland). I have a small room, with great mics and a little bit of treatment around walls and in corner bass traps. My 7 piece set translates really well, and of course gives me 100% dynamics and sound that an e-drum set cannot. That being said, I know some very clever guys making the new e-drums work closer with LOTS of midi setting tweaks and macros in certain DAWs. At the end of the day though, you use what you've got and what works best for you :).
"No matter what anyone says" So just ignore the facts and dig your heels in even further to shout at that cloud then? Ever consider that you're just shit at setting up the E-Drums?
Yes, they are 100 percent worth it. Not for just the acoustic replacement. But the size of the impact and sound. There is so much about why acoustics drums need to stay in music.
Acoustic drums as opposed to what? It's not like there is (functionally) such a thing as a non-acoustic kit these days... at least not if you're doing it correctly. It's not like they would ever vanish, even if all the kits in the world burned down.
I had, I have, one of those legendary, remote on location recording trucks. And only the second one in the USA to have a vintage Neve. But now it's disassembled and in storage. Being prepped for sale. I've had the facility now for over 30 years. Time to call it quits. Enough is enough. I had my fun. 20 years it NBC. 30 years of my truck. Which overlapped NBC by 10. And 10 before all of that. From Baltimore, New York City, Fort Lauderdale/Miami, Philadelphia, Washington DC. And working the East Coast from NYC to, northern Florida. What a gas! But it was diesel. Three rooms within and central HVAC. Entirely soundproofed. And an acoustic signature. That blows people's minds. Better than a brick and mortar studio. And only I have the proper recipe. And it's not like you'd imagine it. It was hugely exciting. But yeah. As you have demonstrated. You can make fine drum recordings in, cramped little rooms. This is why God created, digital synthesized, ambient reverbs. For drum sets in little rooms. Dial in the room you want. Eliminate the acoustics of the room they are in. And that's called judicious use of gates. Plenty of EQ and limiters. And away you go! So, stop with the concept of, Natural Sound. That's bullshit! You want highly processed, sound. To make it sound, natural. And you got a good console. But you don't have to quantize all the beats, in the computer. Let the listener know. That's actually a human drummer. Even if it is you. Because only Buddy Rich and a few other notable drummers. Could even come close to playing that accurately. So why do you need to be any better than that? You like taking the human factor, out? Why? You're not going to get enough airplay on the radio if you don't? Why bother? They aren't going to play your music on the radio, anyhow! Nonetheless you got a couple of million dollars to pay somebody? And you don't. We don't. I don't. Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift's parents do. So ask your parents for, $4 million. Then you can worry about beat quantizing. After you sign your life away to a major record label. Note. I said major record label. Not Billy Bob Records. As in, independent garbage. That carries no weight. Now,, do you also know your left and right speakers are in phase but in, negative polarity? They are. Unless you are using JBL's? Because like me. They are the only ones that got that right. And you'll find them out of phase. To every other Pro Audio speaker manufacturer, in existence. You don't have to believe me. But I tweak and have tweaked. Some mighty fine studios, doing so. It's a simple stupid, professional error. 99% of all, electrical engineers and acoustic engineers, make. And all of those other speaker manufacturers. Even if you have followed the wiring diagram. It's wrong. I know. Hard to believe. But true. As it's an engineering error. At the factory level. Because I've worked for some of those factories, also. Of legendary equipment manufacturers like, API, MCI. And an aficionado on all others such as Neve, Sphere, API, SSL both analog and digital versions. I've gotten to use, the best consuls in the world. If I didn't already own them! And I've never personally owned an, SSL. But I've used them at other studio facilities and NBC-TV. And I like them, sure. I almost purchase a SSL 9000 J. But didn't give up my Neve. So I didn't get the SSL. I can only fit one into the truck. And it had to be the best tracking one. Neve. Now go try what I've suggested. You'll be glad you did. It'll sound more exciting and human. Imagine that? What a concept! Maybe it'll catch on? LOL. I mean Bob Clearmountain tracks through a Neve. And mixes on SSL 4000 E with the G automation computer. Because I also know Bob Clearmountain. And have worked with him. I talked to him. Every so often, also. And you learn a few things from guys like him. He doesn't really record with, SSL. As their microphone preamps are nothing to write home about. But can't be beat, for mixing. And now you can have them in software!. Stephen Slate, makes a good emulation. So do some others now. And that's SSL in the box. For pennies on the dollar. In ProTools. And other software's. So I track everything with, a judicious amount of, EQ and dynamics range processing. I usually save the gating, for mix. The old lady monster mixer. RemyRAD
Definitely worth finding a great room for recording drums. The room sound is so much part of the overall image. Take it as a daisy chain. Each component is integral to the final sound. Song > Arrangement > Drummer > Drum kit and snare choice > Room > Mic choice and set up > Preamps > Stem processing > drum bus > master bus > mastering. Have fun recording and mixing!
Or if you're on a budget and want massive flexibility, you'll just go with Superior Drummer 3. Plenty of possibilities as far as bleed and room sound is concerned, so much so that I just use it randomly on tracks that don't have any drums. Just hearing that snare resonate makes it feel like the most authentic recording, and then there's the convenience of being able to go into it note-by-note.
Long time listener (from the Haste the Day days!) first time chatter! I’ve been drumming for over 25 years mainly playing at church and with friends! My hope is to have a space to record and videos like this really get me excited. Love your stuff and I look forward to more!
I love Mojave Audio mics. One of their mics was the first mic that gave me that feeling that they were doing just a little magic that the other mics weren't doing. It was a black 301, which they were all black back in the day. I'll never forgive myself for selling it either. That even sounds crazy, I found some magic and I sold it. I want one of the Tube mics of theirs. That'll be my expensive posh LDC mic eventually. Cool stuff
Great video, thanks for the insight. I started to use this method a couple of years ago after I heard Bob Rock admitting in an interview, that since digital era came in, he's using samples on drums all the time to make them sound perfect every session. After that....I had no fear of recording sessions in any space.
Excellent point. Decent overheads and samples really work. But the more I mess with velocity and saturation the more I realize how much you can get away with in the box.
It also takes a lot of effort to make programmed drums, sit in the mix and sounding as authentic and natural. Of course it depends on the project, but most of the time that's my experience too... 👍😊
Once they're in a mix, electronic drums don't sound drastically different than acoustic ones. And you can MIDI them up to vsts such as Addictive Drums if you want to anyway. Between that and amp plugs such as Amplitube, I don't have to limit myself to only certain times of the day to mess around making my awful 3-chord garage rock anymore. Win/win.
I have old drums and rebuilt them perfectly with evans drumhead sounds has much has dw kit i made sound test no diff just put lot of love and it works awesom
Just a tip, you probably already know this but just in case…you can create an aux track (or another audio track with monitoring enabled) and send the kick drum to it and add trigger to that. That way if you edit the original tracks at all the changes will automatically carry over to trigger.
Everybody replaces the acoustic kit sounds with samples. Sample Sounds are way better and isolation is perfect. But to capture ‘the performance’ characteristic you still need a drum kit for the transients in the first place - it faster to play than program midi. Some of the comments are from drummers confusing the sound aspects versus the performance.
What do you mean by that? As in performance characteristics? I mean, sure, it is faster to sloppily put down a jam and then fix it after the fact, but if you're proficient at programming, the only advantage is how you can bring your idioms through in your playing slightly more - arguably not so much since you already consolidated it into your in-the-box workflow. The only thing I can think of that egregiously isn't possible with sample kits is a brush-based snare with all the articulations, and even then you could at least emulate the sound and performance. Other than that, you can make 200-buck e-kits sound like the most expensive acoustic set in the world - every one of them - and that's before you get really creative with it. It is difficult though, programming the same way you play is a bit like emulating iconic drummer styles: you can make it happen, but you need to really have a good grasp on the nitty-gritty of the craft.
@@minhuang8848 it’s just been my experience that real drummers might hit the snare slightly ahead of the beat during a chorus to create tension, or behind the beat leading up to a drum fill. Or they might double hit a snare in jazz or funk, or they might flam the hi-hat to add motion. You can program all these humanizing factors - and I have - but it’s tedious.
The current technology for programming drums with something like Superior Drummer 3, DrumLab, etc is pretty incredible at this point. More bands/artists than you would think use this tools to either add to or as the singular way to capture their drums with impressive results. That said -- if you have the space and the know how why wouldn't you just record the real thing? It's more fun and your ability to shape your sound into something that's more unique is greater.
It's also a lot easier to play the real thing in some ways, editing dynamics and making fills sound natural is infuriating to me, doing it for real is seamless and always sound better,same for shakers and tambourines.If i'm not going for ultra polished programmed drums esthetic i find it a lot more efficient to just bang the damn things myself.Granted real drums are a big investment in time and money but it ends up paying dividends i find..
@@redwithblackstripes Agreed, I like the real thing better too and don't go crazy editing, but, in order to do the real thing you need to know how to play or have friends that do. Some people do the solo thing and end up doing the programmed drum stuff because they simply can't play, don't have the room or both.
It depends on my resources and the style of music! I prefer fewer mics placed correctly over tones of mics and options that aren’t in the right places.
There is an 1176 on the snare going in. But it was very gentle. I wanted a very naturally sound so I didn’t want to do too much processing. Thanks for watching!
recording good drums is extremely hard. mostly the room is the biggest factor. then mics, pres, compressors and the quality of the drums and heads and tunings are also a factor. Not to mention the drummer of course. there is a reason SD3 and edrums are popular. It is hard to get a good, dry sound. To me it is absolutely worth going into a studio for a couple days. forgot to metion tape. it really does drums justice to hit the tape.
With the progress of Roland's drum architecture,unless you own a professional studio that has adequate room and soundproofing,it doesn't make sense,ESPECIALLY by the time you mix,master and compress your music for consumption on UA-cam, Spotify,and Itunes. The end consumer can't tell the difference. NO ONE listening on a pair of cheap earbuds is going to be able to tell what type of drumset you used. The Roland VAD706 set has over 70 DIFFERENT drumsets,900 different sounds, and the consumer can't tell the difference. How many studios have the room for 70 different snares so you can get the sound you want? PLUS think of the expense of getting the best mics to record your drumset. The mics are going to cost MORE than the drums! Then you have to go through the time consuming process of getting the "right" sound on each drum and cymbal. Technology has made real drums obsolete.
Sub’d. Also, my first shitty recording of real drums was better than anything I had ever heard from Superior Drummer 3, which I was blown away by initially
@@stephenkeechmusic holy crap, somebody mentioned haste the day in another comment… pressure the hinges was one of my top albums as a teen! Man, I would love to get coffee some time and talk music business. I used to be a road dog but have pivoted back to my first musical love: composing and producing. You listen to 6 Figure Creative?
Yeah the drum sound, perfectly boring. Not bad. Not distorted. Not exciting. Just predictably, boring. Like they have been neutered. So you have that nice Trident what? 80-C? Maybe a B? One of those. With its tasty sounding, Trident, EQ. And you tweak some, excitement with the EQ. Then! You take the output of the EQ. And you patch it into a, 1176 type FET limiter. I like all buttons in. I like to be pulling, 10-15 DB of gain reduction. Relatively slow attack, quick release. And then for the pièce de résistance. You follow that 1176 limiter with a, KEPEX downward expander/gate. Not too fast a release time. With the threshold set. So it's only on when the drum is being played. Off between beats. Do the same for the bass drum as you do for the snare drum. Do the same for the tom-toms. You can largely leave the overheads, alone. High-pass filter them. Dial-in some, high-end. Let them fly. Et voilà! Big tight fat punchy, zippy sounding, drums. Don't worry about the EQ, you can't undo. Figure out how to do it. You won't need to undo. I commit to all of my drum tracks. Which makes remixing, so easy to dial in. So easy to augment. Instead of that accurate, amateur hour sound you are getting. Which is, boring. I'll fall asleep over your song. Now, I'm not kidding. I've been doing this for about 50+ years. I'm now, retired! And pushing 67. So, I'm sharing my secrets with you. Because you are not any competition. Yeah those Fat Head, ribbon microphones, are nice. Nice on jazz overhead drums. Not as exciting on, rock. Just a bit too smooth, there. Glad you changed those out. Try them on female vocals. Maybe jazz guitar. You have a small room. So use, SDC, small diaphragm condenser microphones. The don't suffer from off axis, response characteristics. Like LDC, commonly do. LDC, just don't have enough cubic feet in a small room. To prevent the cloudy veil, of off axis response pickup. And everybody with a tiny room, makes that mistake. You guys, just don't get it? In that respect. You might be better off with a pair of SM-57's for overhead. They were great! Let's review. Michael Jackson, lead vocals, on his hit records. SM-7 or 7B. Say microphone. No difference. B, stands for Broadcast. Which means. It has an extra faraday, RF (radio frequency), built-in internal shield. The original SM-7 didn't have. When your microphone was near your, 50,000 Watt, FM transmitter and antenna tower. Then you might want the B, version? Now, if you don't want to spend the money for the 7B? Then you can simply use a, 57 or 58. With the additional, oversized, 6 inch long, gray foam, pop filter. And when added to a 57 or 58. You have the budget, SM-7/7B. Rowley $100 plus the $40 pop filter. So, $140. Instead of $450. Because the SM-7B. Midway down its long foam phallus like, snout. It internally contains, the same SM-57, capsule.. No different! The jokes on you! I know how they are manufactured. I have spoken intimately with their engineers. Sticking out a studio design build. And I needed technical data. And they are identically, the same come internally. One has switches on the back and screws to the stand. The other has no switches and a clip to the stand. Oh well! It's very funny! I laugh my ass off over that one. And while I still have a, original SM-7. I only use that when I run out of, 57 and 58's. And then it also looks, so important and expensive. Baffling people with, bullshit. Which is so easy to do in our trade. Now all of this technical information, is absolutely true. I worked for big hit recording studios in, NYC. Along with Bob Clearmountain. I grew up around George Massenburg. I've made history and garnered, 4 major music award nominations. And 20 years with a major USA television and radio network. Now I've had consoles, not much different from yours. I've had a myriad of lovely desks. I've had an API. I've had a Sphere. I had an Auditronics. I've used MCI. But I only liked their recorders. I never cared for their console sound. They never did anything for me. They sounded Brown. Like their color. And then, 26 years ago. I got one of the 1970, vintage, 36 input, custom, Neve consoles. That I used to use it NBC and knew I would never be able to, afford or own one. Until I got, 2 of them. But have since sold, the second one. That now sits in a New York City recording studio by an upcoming, engineer/producer, Fabrice duPont. Which I sold to him in, 2012. 10 years ago now. Where has the time gone? But I still have the other one. Which I shall also be devasting myself of soon. It's over 50 years old. Completely restored and refurbished. It's been such a joy. I'm going to miss it as much as I miss my, late husband of 22 years. But it's necessary for me to move on and enjoy my retirement. Without such heavy baggage. I've been using it since 1984. Purchased in 1996. Wow! What a delight! Great when you overdrive it just right. It's magical! Your Trident, not quite that. Decent, sure. Still with that British lineage. But it's not a Neve. Only a Neve, is a Neve. And an old one, at that. All discrete transistors circuitry. No integrated circuit chips to be found. Tons of transformers. And I mean, tons. The entire console weighs as much as a, VW Beetle or Mazda Miata. Not something you want to move, often. As it requires about 8 burly guys. After you take out all of the electronics. It's a monster! Like you see in Sound City. And my pleasure to have recorded Dave Groll, once. Right after Kurt Cobain blew his brains out. And the band, disbanded. And he moved home to Springfield, Virginia. Right next to me in, Falls Church. And I didn't even know who he was? When I recorded him. He was about the funniest guy I had ever met. Even during his grieving for his former bandmate. (Continued in next post)
Isn't there a bit of cognitive dissonance involved in proclaiming the virtues of real drums and “feeling real” and then completely quantizing the performance? What live bands are you attempting to emulate with that approach?
Hey Kaden, thanks for your question! Here are a few things that I’ve learned in all of my experience: 1. I’m not a great drummer. So I will have to edit myself more than other drummers. 😂But I still only quantize 1/4 or 1/8 notes depending on the song and leave the bits in between. There are some drummers that can play on the grid so well that quantization is unnecessary. I’ve had much better luck getting a tight performance out of a full band when recording “live”. There is a connection between the players that can’t be recreated when just listening and staring at a wave file. I’m just me though and I need to work fast. 2. The magic of real instruments isn’t in how tight they are. Programmed drums can be just as off the grid and still sound like programmed drums. The magic is in the infinite variations in dynamics, tone, and texture of a human playing a real instrument. When working with samples or a drum vst there might be 4 round robins and 3 dynamic layers to each drum. That’s a lot less than infinite! So, to me, it makes a big difference. I also don’t quantize the guitars so that creates a lot of my push/pull groove. I hope that answers your question!
I would add if you’re just going to grid everything anyway then why go through the process of playing “live” in the first place. Let the machine do it cause that’s what it sounds like after you take all the soul out of the performance. We’ve lost the ability to here the soul in imperfections .
When I’ve recorded great drummers there’s no real reason to quantize. I am not a great drummer. So I quantize. :) with that said, it’s still a preference thing. If you don’t want to grid it, don’t.
I know most of you drummers are not going to want to hear what I’m about to say but I have a small recording studio and I do all of my mixing in the box but I do have a rack and it has three channel strips five stereo compressors and five stereo FX units and I have a 16 channel snake that goes directly into my top patch bay and it normals straight to my 16 channel interface but on my bottom patchbay I run my Kik into the first channel strip which has a compressor and an equalizer and a tube saturator I put a kick and the snare and the hi hat through the three channel strips my drums have four toms that are a stereo pair and my symbols are also a stereo pair but I don’t use any microphones because what I am using is the strike force pro and it has eight outputs now I know they are not the best drums in the world and let’s face it most drummers don’t really like the high hats but I’m telling you the snares and kick drums and the Tom Toms sound absolutely great when you run them through a little compression with some saturation on it if you can get the drummer to put up with the high hat the finished product always sounds good I only have acoustic treatment in my vocal booth and my control room and neither one of them are super great so I use instruments that will plug straight into the snake and eliminating the crappy sound of my room even though I know that the strike pro drums are not the best in the world or my keyboards but they make a world of difference for me the engineer because when I want drums I just pull the 50 foot snake into the live room and plug straight into the snake my bass rig has a direct out and so does my guitar amp so the only thing that has any characteristics of my less than stellar room acoustics is my vocal booth and because there is nowhere near enough bass trapping in that room I just high pass everything recorded in there because it is Eco free but if you do not high pass you get a lower tone because the treatment that I have will not go low enough to tame the boomieness of the room so that’s my solution for recording live drums and I’ve got to hand it to Alesis because when they multi sampled each drum sound they used the best mics in the best recording studio with great musicians who can get all the nuances and those notes so there’s never any bleed between the microphones because every hit was sampled one at a time and if I ever want dance music or hip-hop with a live feel I am ready to do anything with these drums so I reiterate I’m not saying they are the best drums in the world but I am saying as a recording engineer what I get out of using them is worth the $2500 that I spent to get them
Yes. You cannot replace the sound of real drums or the feel of a good human drummer.
They are always worth it, rather hear real drums any day!
Same!
You couldn't tell the difference in a blind test.
Actually I probably could tell because of velocity curves . The faster a drummer does double bass drum kicks for example, the easier it is to tell because the hits will get ever so softer. It's physics in action. That's what makes acoustic drums sound musical vs electric or triggered drums, when you take away natural variations in velocity you take away the soul of the drummer. Sure you could go in and have the DAW randomize the track and get close but you're not getting the drummer's actual variations which is what defines a lot of their style, not just the fills they do or their groove, it's all tied together. So yeah, as a drummer for many many years and hearing records change from analog to digital I can usually spot fake drums.
Real is better, there's no debate in that and why drummers got scared of their kick drums getting softer as they went faster is beyond me, I'd have to think it was some soulless engineer who had the brain damaged thought that all the drum hits should be at the exact same volume, like somehow drum machines became the ideal of perfection? Wtf? I want to hear when a drummer goes into an insane fast double kick that the kicks get softer because they're really straining to make those hits and that just adds that much more tension to something that's building in intensity, you want to feel and hear the effort that's going into playing those really difficult parts, man it just makes you grit your teeth more and feel the emotion in the playing coming across, you don't fucking get that with triggered, sampled drums.
I'll give you what I think is one of the best examples of why you don't need to trigger drums and how much better a real micd up drum kit is and why it's the standard of standards, the greatest and best way to record. Mike Portnoy. He's never once, to my knowledge, ever used triggers on an album! listen to anything he's done with Dream Theater, Neal Morse, Liquid Tension, Transatlantic etc and so on...he doesn't use triggers, he knows and understands you want all those variations in there, it's what defines you as a drummer, it's what gives motion to music and feeling, don't let a fucking machine take your soul man!! What you end up with is what we have now, especially in the metal world, souless, cookie cutter digital garbage recordings, all sound the same with very few exceptions.
🤘😜🤘
@@therealeleusis In images and words drums are triggered, I read the producer wanted triggers to have a more defined sound a-la Metallica or Motley Crue (it was 1992 by the way), Portnoy hated the idea but accepted and since Awake drums have always been real (for him at least, don't know Mangini)... In Images thought the drum sound was fascinating, at least for me that I was a kid when I discovered them in mid 90, it had some kind of progressive metal sound that defined an era for future metal drummers (especially in power metal and progressive metal)
@@Syklonus - drums you absolutely can. there's a huge reason most modern recordings sound so boring and similar, because they all lean on the same drum tones that help bands sound like they have huge, big money drum production on the quick & easy. I miss the days when you would put on a CD and hear different drums across an album, sometimes even across a song. not to mention that drum stacking and tracking with a computerized velocity path also makes so many modern recordings sound the same because the dynamics get sucked out of a real performance.
Natural drums. Everytime. All the time. Anytime. Always.
Short answer, YES!. You cannot compare acoustic to e-drums no matter what anyone says. I owned the very latest TD50x K2 set with all the digital blah blah. It was a great set, and I even spent a LOT of time getting THE sound I wanted, including making a brush set (which none exist on it from Roland). I have a small room, with great mics and a little bit of treatment around walls and in corner bass traps. My 7 piece set translates really well, and of course gives me 100% dynamics and sound that an e-drum set cannot. That being said, I know some very clever guys making the new e-drums work closer with LOTS of midi setting tweaks and macros in certain DAWs. At the end of the day though, you use what you've got and what works best for you :).
"No matter what anyone says"
So just ignore the facts and dig your heels in even further to shout at that cloud then?
Ever consider that you're just shit at setting up the E-Drums?
Yes, they are 100 percent worth it. Not for just the acoustic replacement. But the size of the impact and sound. There is so much about why acoustics drums need to stay in music.
nah
I completely agree.
Acoustic drums as opposed to what? It's not like there is (functionally) such a thing as a non-acoustic kit these days... at least not if you're doing it correctly. It's not like they would ever vanish, even if all the kits in the world burned down.
I had, I have, one of those legendary, remote on location recording trucks. And only the second one in the USA to have a vintage Neve. But now it's disassembled and in storage. Being prepped for sale. I've had the facility now for over 30 years. Time to call it quits. Enough is enough. I had my fun. 20 years it NBC. 30 years of my truck. Which overlapped NBC by 10. And 10 before all of that. From Baltimore, New York City, Fort Lauderdale/Miami, Philadelphia, Washington DC. And working the East Coast from NYC to, northern Florida. What a gas! But it was diesel. Three rooms within and central HVAC. Entirely soundproofed. And an acoustic signature. That blows people's minds. Better than a brick and mortar studio. And only I have the proper recipe. And it's not like you'd imagine it. It was hugely exciting.
But yeah. As you have demonstrated. You can make fine drum recordings in, cramped little rooms. This is why God created, digital synthesized, ambient reverbs. For drum sets in little rooms. Dial in the room you want. Eliminate the acoustics of the room they are in. And that's called judicious use of gates. Plenty of EQ and limiters. And away you go!
So, stop with the concept of, Natural Sound. That's bullshit! You want highly processed, sound. To make it sound, natural. And you got a good console.
But you don't have to quantize all the beats, in the computer. Let the listener know. That's actually a human drummer. Even if it is you. Because only Buddy Rich and a few other notable drummers. Could even come close to playing that accurately. So why do you need to be any better than that? You like taking the human factor, out? Why? You're not going to get enough airplay on the radio if you don't? Why bother? They aren't going to play your music on the radio, anyhow! Nonetheless you got a couple of million dollars to pay somebody? And you don't. We don't. I don't. Justin Bieber and Taylor Swift's parents do. So ask your parents for, $4 million. Then you can worry about beat quantizing. After you sign your life away to a major record label. Note. I said major record label. Not Billy Bob Records. As in, independent garbage. That carries no weight.
Now,, do you also know your left and right speakers are in phase but in, negative polarity? They are. Unless you are using JBL's? Because like me. They are the only ones that got that right. And you'll find them out of phase. To every other Pro Audio speaker manufacturer, in existence. You don't have to believe me. But I tweak and have tweaked. Some mighty fine studios, doing so. It's a simple stupid, professional error. 99% of all, electrical engineers and acoustic engineers, make. And all of those other speaker manufacturers. Even if you have followed the wiring diagram. It's wrong. I know. Hard to believe. But true. As it's an engineering error. At the factory level. Because I've worked for some of those factories, also. Of legendary equipment manufacturers like, API, MCI. And an aficionado on all others such as Neve, Sphere, API, SSL both analog and digital versions. I've gotten to use, the best consuls in the world. If I didn't already own them! And I've never personally owned an, SSL. But I've used them at other studio facilities and NBC-TV. And I like them, sure. I almost purchase a SSL 9000 J. But didn't give up my Neve. So I didn't get the SSL. I can only fit one into the truck. And it had to be the best tracking one. Neve.
Now go try what I've suggested. You'll be glad you did. It'll sound more exciting and human. Imagine that? What a concept! Maybe it'll catch on? LOL. I mean Bob Clearmountain tracks through a Neve. And mixes on SSL 4000 E with the G automation computer. Because I also know Bob Clearmountain. And have worked with him. I talked to him. Every so often, also. And you learn a few things from guys like him. He doesn't really record with, SSL. As their microphone preamps are nothing to write home about. But can't be beat, for mixing. And now you can have them in software!. Stephen Slate, makes a good emulation. So do some others now. And that's SSL in the box. For pennies on the dollar. In ProTools. And other software's.
So I track everything with, a judicious amount of, EQ and dynamics range processing. I usually save the gating, for mix.
The old lady monster mixer.
RemyRAD
Wow, sounds like you had quite the career! That recording bus sounds pretty awesome. Thanks for the insight, Remy.
Definitely worth finding a great room for recording drums. The room sound is so much part of the overall image. Take it as a daisy chain. Each component is integral to the final sound. Song > Arrangement > Drummer > Drum kit and snare choice > Room > Mic choice and set up > Preamps > Stem processing > drum bus > master bus > mastering. Have fun recording and mixing!
Or if you're on a budget and want massive flexibility, you'll just go with Superior Drummer 3. Plenty of possibilities as far as bleed and room sound is concerned, so much so that I just use it randomly on tracks that don't have any drums. Just hearing that snare resonate makes it feel like the most authentic recording, and then there's the convenience of being able to go into it note-by-note.
@@minhuang8848 Dont make boring albums with the same software as other people. Record real drums.
Long time listener (from the Haste the Day days!) first time chatter! I’ve been drumming for over 25 years mainly playing at church and with friends! My hope is to have a space to record and videos like this really get me excited. Love your stuff and I look forward to more!
Hey thanks! So glad I can help with some inspiration. Let me know if you ever have any questions and I’ll try and answer them in a video!
I love Mojave Audio mics. One of their mics was the first mic that gave me that feeling that they were doing just a little magic that the other mics weren't doing. It was a black 301, which they were all black back in the day. I'll never forgive myself for selling it either. That even sounds crazy, I found some magic and I sold it. I want one of the Tube mics of theirs. That'll be my expensive posh LDC mic eventually. Cool stuff
Really great video. Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to see more.
Thank you! Looking forward to making more. Thanks for watching.
Enjoyed the video. Very much. Look forward to seeing more. Cheers, Bill from UK.
Thank Bill from the UK! I am glad you enjoyed it. I’ll have a new video up every Friday!
Great video, thanks for the insight.
I started to use this method a couple of years ago after I heard Bob Rock admitting in an interview, that since digital era came in, he's using samples on drums all the time to make them sound perfect every session. After that....I had no fear of recording sessions in any space.
Greetings from L.A. You Tennessee boys are killing it!
Greetings!
I made it two minutes into the video and got a mysterious hankering for Pressure the Hinges - very cool to see what you’re up to these days!
Haha thanks! Are you coming to any of the shows coming up?
I really liked the detour into tiny tape room, thanks for that
You bet!
Excellent point. Decent overheads and samples really work. But the more I mess with velocity and saturation the more I realize how much you can get away with in the box.
You can definitely get away with a lot of you can get really detailed!
It also takes a lot of effort to make programmed drums, sit in the mix and sounding as authentic and natural. Of course it depends on the project, but most of the time that's my experience too... 👍😊
I’ve had that same problem with the mix. But I guess I’ve also had that problem when I’ve recording really bad drums too. 😂
Great video. Solid playing!
Once they're in a mix, electronic drums don't sound drastically different than acoustic ones. And you can MIDI them up to vsts such as Addictive Drums if you want to anyway. Between that and amp plugs such as Amplitube, I don't have to limit myself to only certain times of the day to mess around making my awful 3-chord garage rock anymore. Win/win.
Thanks for sharing, I like your "recording a band" approach instead of putting things together, nice and keep on sharing 👍
If you know what youre doing with samples, the difference is in audible. Especially if parts are played on an e kit.
I have old drums and rebuilt them perfectly with evans drumhead sounds has much has dw kit i made sound test no diff just put lot of love and it works awesom
Just found your channel and loving the content. Look forward to more!
snare sounds awesome! 🥁👌
Thanks! I love that old slingerland.
Just a tip, you probably already know this but just in case…you can create an aux track (or another audio track with monitoring enabled) and send the kick drum to it and add trigger to that. That way if you edit the original tracks at all the changes will automatically carry over to trigger.
Also thanks for the video!
Thanks for the tip!
Great Video !
Thank you!
Nice Work
Yes....no matter what the situation....
Awesome video Stephen! Great insights into drumming /capturing good drum sounds with restricted space and overall workflow🤘 subbed
Thanks for watching!
First time seeing one of your videos. Also in the Nashville area. Good stuff! Subbed 👍
Small world! Welcome!
Everybody replaces the acoustic kit sounds with samples. Sample Sounds are way better and isolation is perfect. But to capture ‘the performance’ characteristic you still need a drum kit for the transients in the first place - it faster to play than program midi. Some of the comments are from drummers confusing the sound aspects versus the performance.
What do you mean by that? As in performance characteristics?
I mean, sure, it is faster to sloppily put down a jam and then fix it after the fact, but if you're proficient at programming, the only advantage is how you can bring your idioms through in your playing slightly more - arguably not so much since you already consolidated it into your in-the-box workflow.
The only thing I can think of that egregiously isn't possible with sample kits is a brush-based snare with all the articulations, and even then you could at least emulate the sound and performance. Other than that, you can make 200-buck e-kits sound like the most expensive acoustic set in the world - every one of them - and that's before you get really creative with it. It is difficult though, programming the same way you play is a bit like emulating iconic drummer styles: you can make it happen, but you need to really have a good grasp on the nitty-gritty of the craft.
@@minhuang8848 it’s just been my experience that real drummers might hit the snare slightly ahead of the beat during a chorus to create tension, or behind the beat leading up to a drum fill. Or they might double hit a snare in jazz or funk, or they might flam the hi-hat to add motion. You can program all these humanizing factors - and I have - but it’s tedious.
The current technology for programming drums with something like Superior Drummer 3, DrumLab, etc is pretty incredible at this point. More bands/artists than you would think use this tools to either add to or as the singular way to capture their drums with impressive results. That said -- if you have the space and the know how why wouldn't you just record the real thing? It's more fun and your ability to shape your sound into something that's more unique is greater.
It's also a lot easier to play the real thing in some ways, editing dynamics and making fills sound natural is infuriating to me, doing it for real is seamless and always sound better,same for shakers and tambourines.If i'm not going for ultra polished programmed drums esthetic i find it a lot more efficient to just bang the damn things myself.Granted real drums are a big investment in time and money but it ends up paying dividends i find..
@@redwithblackstripes Agreed, I like the real thing better too and don't go crazy editing, but, in order to do the real thing you need to know how to play or have friends that do. Some people do the solo thing and end up doing the programmed drum stuff because they simply can't play, don't have the room or both.
Most people can't play drums as good as the extensive grooves and patterns SD3 has or you'd have to hire a real drummer
@@justin.johnson Agreed. My preference is always a "real drummer" and recording it yourself if you can, but SD3 is pretty incredible.
@@billyhughes9776 and way more fun too
Didnt watch. But to answer the thumbnail......YES
electronic drums are so fun to play! like a playstation
🎮🎮🎮🎮
Maybe you fixed it after but the snare sample is delayed a bit because of the trigger plugin, loses tightness
Toontrack superior drummer 3 is my live drummer w/o mics, drumshield, or a treated space..
I use a lot of programmed drums. They can sound great with the right processing! And I hear great things about superior drummer.
I always go with the minimalist approach setting up mics on a kit. Do you prefer more or less mics on the kit?
It depends on my resources and the style of music! I prefer fewer mics placed correctly over tones of mics and options that aren’t in the right places.
Those ribbons were on OH are actually in blumlein, not XY:)
Correct!
Great content man. I live in the Nashville area as well and would love to connect!
Thanks dude! Yeah man shoot me an email. Stephen@stephenkeech.com
Are Bechstien Grands worth it anymore when we have Casio?
Of course they're worth it!
Indeed they are!!
I record my drums in a untreated tiny office and they sound great.
so no gate/compressor/envelope shaper on the snare? 👍
There is an 1176 on the snare going in. But it was very gentle. I wanted a very naturally sound so I didn’t want to do too much processing. Thanks for watching!
you guys should invest more ti into the Nice tutorialp hop scene along with tutorials too
❤️ tutorials
Wicked channel. Would love to collaborate sometime
Thanks!
Drum stick floor tom leg. Do it.
So, pushing buttons is better?
What buttons?
Real drums always sound better and are more responsive. There is art in how they are mic’d
And tuned and played! It’s the full package.
nope wrong
Thanks you too!
Man for my drum covers i just have 1 dynamic microphone for recording
It’s amazing what you can do with one mic in the right place
recording good drums is extremely hard. mostly the room is the biggest factor. then mics, pres, compressors and the quality of the drums and heads and tunings are also a factor. Not to mention the drummer of course. there is a reason SD3 and edrums are popular. It is hard to get a good, dry sound. To me it is absolutely worth going into a studio for a couple days. forgot to metion tape. it really does drums justice to hit the tape.
Sup
With the progress of Roland's drum architecture,unless you own a professional studio that has adequate room and soundproofing,it doesn't make sense,ESPECIALLY by the time you mix,master and compress your music for consumption on UA-cam, Spotify,and Itunes. The end consumer can't tell the difference. NO ONE listening on a pair of cheap earbuds is going to be able to tell what type of drumset you used. The Roland VAD706 set has over 70 DIFFERENT drumsets,900 different sounds, and the consumer can't tell the difference. How many studios have the room for 70 different snares so you can get the sound you want? PLUS think of the expense of getting the best mics to record your drumset. The mics are going to cost MORE than the drums! Then you have to go through the time consuming process of getting the "right" sound on each drum and cymbal. Technology has made real drums obsolete.
Electronic drums and VIs have definitely come a long way. And for a lot of applications, try can really get the job done.
Sub’d. Also, my first shitty recording of real drums was better than anything I had ever heard from Superior Drummer 3, which I was blown away by initially
There is a character that you just can’t recreate!
@@stephenkeechmusic holy crap, somebody mentioned haste the day in another comment… pressure the hinges was one of my top albums as a teen! Man, I would love to get coffee some time and talk music business. I used to be a road dog but have pivoted back to my first musical love: composing and producing. You listen to 6 Figure Creative?
Yeah the drum sound, perfectly boring. Not bad. Not distorted. Not exciting. Just predictably, boring. Like they have been neutered.
So you have that nice Trident what? 80-C? Maybe a B? One of those. With its tasty sounding, Trident, EQ.
And you tweak some, excitement with the EQ. Then! You take the output of the EQ. And you patch it into a, 1176 type FET limiter. I like all buttons in. I like to be pulling, 10-15 DB of gain reduction. Relatively slow attack, quick release. And then for the pièce de résistance. You follow that 1176 limiter with a, KEPEX downward expander/gate. Not too fast a release time. With the threshold set. So it's only on when the drum is being played. Off between beats.
Do the same for the bass drum as you do for the snare drum. Do the same for the tom-toms. You can largely leave the overheads, alone. High-pass filter them. Dial-in some, high-end. Let them fly. Et voilà! Big tight fat punchy, zippy sounding, drums.
Don't worry about the EQ, you can't undo. Figure out how to do it. You won't need to undo. I commit to all of my drum tracks. Which makes remixing, so easy to dial in. So easy to augment. Instead of that accurate, amateur hour sound you are getting. Which is, boring. I'll fall asleep over your song.
Now, I'm not kidding. I've been doing this for about 50+ years. I'm now, retired! And pushing 67. So, I'm sharing my secrets with you. Because you are not any competition.
Yeah those Fat Head, ribbon microphones, are nice. Nice on jazz overhead drums. Not as exciting on, rock. Just a bit too smooth, there. Glad you changed those out. Try them on female vocals. Maybe jazz guitar. You have a small room. So use, SDC, small diaphragm condenser microphones. The don't suffer from off axis, response characteristics. Like LDC, commonly do. LDC, just don't have enough cubic feet in a small room. To prevent the cloudy veil, of off axis response pickup. And everybody with a tiny room, makes that mistake. You guys, just don't get it? In that respect. You might be better off with a pair of SM-57's for overhead. They were great!
Let's review. Michael Jackson, lead vocals, on his hit records. SM-7 or 7B. Say microphone. No difference. B, stands for Broadcast. Which means. It has an extra faraday, RF (radio frequency), built-in internal shield. The original SM-7 didn't have. When your microphone was near your, 50,000 Watt, FM transmitter and antenna tower. Then you might want the B, version?
Now, if you don't want to spend the money for the 7B? Then you can simply use a, 57 or 58. With the additional, oversized, 6 inch long, gray foam, pop filter. And when added to a 57 or 58. You have the budget, SM-7/7B. Rowley $100 plus the $40 pop filter. So, $140. Instead of $450. Because the SM-7B. Midway down its long foam phallus like, snout. It internally contains, the same SM-57, capsule.. No different! The jokes on you! I know how they are manufactured. I have spoken intimately with their engineers. Sticking out a studio design build. And I needed technical data. And they are identically, the same come internally. One has switches on the back and screws to the stand. The other has no switches and a clip to the stand. Oh well! It's very funny! I laugh my ass off over that one. And while I still have a, original SM-7. I only use that when I run out of, 57 and 58's. And then it also looks, so important and expensive. Baffling people with, bullshit. Which is so easy to do in our trade.
Now all of this technical information, is absolutely true. I worked for big hit recording studios in, NYC. Along with Bob Clearmountain. I grew up around George Massenburg. I've made history and garnered, 4 major music award nominations. And 20 years with a major USA television and radio network.
Now I've had consoles, not much different from yours. I've had a myriad of lovely desks. I've had an API. I've had a Sphere. I had an Auditronics. I've used MCI. But I only liked their recorders. I never cared for their console sound. They never did anything for me. They sounded Brown. Like their color. And then, 26 years ago. I got one of the 1970, vintage, 36 input, custom, Neve consoles. That I used to use it NBC and knew I would never be able to, afford or own one. Until I got, 2 of them. But have since sold, the second one. That now sits in a New York City recording studio by an upcoming, engineer/producer, Fabrice duPont. Which I sold to him in, 2012. 10 years ago now. Where has the time gone? But I still have the other one. Which I shall also be devasting myself of soon. It's over 50 years old. Completely restored and refurbished. It's been such a joy. I'm going to miss it as much as I miss my, late husband of 22 years. But it's necessary for me to move on and enjoy my retirement. Without such heavy baggage. I've been using it since 1984. Purchased in 1996. Wow! What a delight! Great when you overdrive it just right. It's magical! Your Trident, not quite that. Decent, sure. Still with that British lineage. But it's not a Neve. Only a Neve, is a Neve. And an old one, at that. All discrete transistors circuitry. No integrated circuit chips to be found. Tons of transformers. And I mean, tons. The entire console weighs as much as a, VW Beetle or Mazda Miata. Not something you want to move, often. As it requires about 8 burly guys. After you take out all of the electronics. It's a monster! Like you see in Sound City. And my pleasure to have recorded Dave Groll, once. Right after Kurt Cobain blew his brains out. And the band, disbanded. And he moved home to Springfield, Virginia. Right next to me in, Falls Church. And I didn't even know who he was? When I recorded him. He was about the funniest guy I had ever met. Even during his grieving for his former bandmate.
(Continued in next post)
Computers are convenient and all...but I'm so sick of hearing the exact same drum sounds on every album these days.
Isn't there a bit of cognitive dissonance involved in proclaiming the virtues of real drums and “feeling real” and then completely quantizing the performance? What live bands are you attempting to emulate with that approach?
Hey Kaden, thanks for your question! Here are a few things that I’ve learned in all of my experience:
1. I’m not a great drummer. So I will have to edit myself more than other drummers. 😂But I still only quantize 1/4 or 1/8 notes depending on the song and leave the bits in between. There are some drummers that can play on the grid so well that quantization is unnecessary. I’ve had much better luck getting a tight performance out of a full band when recording “live”. There is a connection between the players that can’t be recreated when just listening and staring at a wave file. I’m just me though and I need to work fast.
2. The magic of real instruments isn’t in how tight they are. Programmed drums can be just as off the grid and still sound like programmed drums. The magic is in the infinite variations in dynamics, tone, and texture of a human playing a real instrument. When working with samples or a drum vst there might be 4 round robins and 3 dynamic layers to each drum. That’s a lot less than infinite! So, to me, it makes a big difference. I also don’t quantize the guitars so that creates a lot of my push/pull groove.
I hope that answers your question!
I would add if you’re just going to grid everything anyway then why go through the process of playing “live” in the first place. Let the machine do it cause that’s what it sounds like after you take all the soul out of the performance. We’ve lost the ability to here the soul in imperfections .
I'd say that if you line up all your hits then it's pointless to use real drums.Quantizing is why drums suck these day. No push/pull or character.
When I’ve recorded great drummers there’s no real reason to quantize. I am not a great drummer. So I quantize. :) with that said, it’s still a preference thing. If you don’t want to grid it, don’t.
I know most of you drummers are not going to want to hear what I’m about to say but I have a small recording studio and I do all of my mixing in the box but I do have a rack and it has three channel strips five stereo compressors and five stereo FX units and I have a 16 channel snake that goes directly into my top patch bay and it normals straight to my 16 channel interface but on my bottom patchbay I run my Kik into the first channel strip which has a compressor and an equalizer and a tube saturator I put a kick and the snare and the hi hat through the three channel strips my drums have four toms that are a stereo pair and my symbols are also a stereo pair but I don’t use any microphones because what I am using is the strike force pro and it has eight outputs now I know they are not the best drums in the world and let’s face it most drummers don’t really like the high hats but I’m telling you the snares and kick drums and the Tom Toms sound absolutely great when you run them through a little compression with some saturation on it if you can get the drummer to put up with the high hat the finished product always sounds good I only have acoustic treatment in my vocal booth and my control room and neither one of them are super great so I use instruments that will plug straight into the snake and eliminating the crappy sound of my room even though I know that the strike pro drums are not the best in the world or my keyboards but they make a world of difference for me the engineer because when I want drums I just pull the 50 foot snake into the live room and plug straight into the snake my bass rig has a direct out and so does my guitar amp so the only thing that has any characteristics of my less than stellar room acoustics is my vocal booth and because there is nowhere near enough bass trapping in that room I just high pass everything recorded in there because it is Eco free but if you do not high pass you get a lower tone because the treatment that I have will not go low enough to tame the boomieness of the room so that’s my solution for recording live drums and I’ve got to hand it to Alesis because when they multi sampled each drum sound they used the best mics in the best recording studio with great musicians who can get all the nuances and those notes so there’s never any bleed between the microphones because every hit was sampled one at a time and if I ever want dance music or hip-hop with a live feel I am ready to do anything with these drums so I reiterate I’m not saying they are the best drums in the world but I am saying as a recording engineer what I get out of using them is worth the $2500 that I spent to get them
If it works, it works!
Real drums are good those that can play them, otherwise get an e-kit, or better yet, just get a computer.
Once chupped and put to grid your drums ain't "real" anymore. It sounds very good........but keep the "real" out of your discussion. It is not.