So based on your suggestions I went ahead and tried notching the Aim-54 and it worked out pretty well. Thanks for ur suggestions and I hope you enjoy the video.
Growling Sidewinder Nice video! If there were some mod to correct phoenix flight model to realistic one... Try now to fight against Mig-31 with R37 and 1 R40T+1 R40R or R77 (don't remember if mig31 can carry them). IRL R37 must be better than AIM54C, but it's too doesn't have proper FM.
nice! after the first notch you could probably get an amramm off while avoiding the second acquisition. Also , head on short range missile could just be broken with pitch and flare/chaff. I'd still rather be in the 14, they need to fix the pheonix flight characteristics. Do more merge combat that is where the dogfighting and testing the air frame and thrust to weight ratio is. Any aircraft can be upgraded with modern avionics.
You make good videos providing intelligent analysis and narrative as well as interesting scenarios, tacview providing a good gods eye summary at the end. Keep it up, would like to see Foxbat, Super Hornet, Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen if they are in the game. Also stealthy F-22 and F-35. Scenarios are endless really, keep it up and keep enjoying.
Id be curious to see if a RIO could see your aspect changing on his screen and work to keep the lock despite getting Beamed cant wait to try this with the Tomcat later this year
I sent this to my dad because it reminded me of something he mentioned to me as a little kid. In 1978 he was flying F-111F's out of Mt Home and his wing operations officer sent him to Red Flag to look for new tactics. While at Red Flag, F-15 pilots mentioned losing C-130's when they'd make these kinds of turns. Albeit, they weren't doing it deliberately. Dad said what you're calling notching was one of the tactics he brought back to the 366th TFW, but never heard any more about it. He said, at the time, the maneuver would have been completely out of line with, then, current thinking. However, it would have been much more applicable with how 111's were used in Iraq. Personally, I read an account of two Iraqi Foxbats making a run at a flight of Eagles and pulling what was described as a "Soviet era anti-Eagle maneuver" whereby the F-15's did lose the two Foxbats for a time. Thanks for your simulations. This is great stuff guys in his day really had to just think about and play out in their heads for lack of computing and display power. He's been enjoying your work quite a bit. Keeps the old man excited. Thanks again!
wow thats one hell of story, thanks for sharing my work him and letting me know how much hes enjoying it. I'm floored that he's enjoying this content to be honest. I'll try to make the content better and better as we go. hope he enjoyed the later material. thanks again for sharing that. thats a great story.
BTW, you're flying overland to give the Phoenix ground clutter, bear in mind it was designed to be used over water against anti-ship missile carrying bombers. They fired something like four rounds at Iraqi's violating the no-fly zone but never got a hit. So, may be some limitations operating over land. I read an account of a Tomcat crew which was part of our response to the Bakaara Market fight in Mogadishu. The pilot mentioned that, at that time, they never operated over land so they had no SAM warning system, as it wasn't needed at sea. SAM detection was visual-only. He mentioned they did visually ID a MANPAD fired at them and evaded it. Probably, the fleet was modified with sensors later on, and the D surely came with them because it had air-to-ground built in. Be interesting to see you take on a Tomcat over the open ocean. Hey, it'd make my dad's day if you could do something with the RF-4C, which he flew in combat in N Vietnam out of Udorn in '68. Or, something with the F-111F which he flew out of Takhli in '73. Do the F-111F if you have to choose. He really loved that one and was #1 WSO in the fleet at the end of his career. He said "The F model was really the Cadillac of the 111's with the best engines and digital bomb-nav system." Thanks again. You really bring back some memories for him!
Капитан Гейб hey man. Those planes don't exist in DCS as flyable for players. But I'll see if I can get some mods to make that possible. If I can pull it off I will its actually a cool idea for a video.
He was in 111's at Taklhi in 1974, so, he didn't know your grandfather. We didn't move to Mt. Home until after the fall of Saigon in May 1975. With that, the reason for the 111's to be in Thailand came to an end (to enforce the peace treaty that Nixon had forced the North to come to the Paris peace talks on). Dad also says that nobody died during his time with the 366th TFW at Mt. Home.
You are correct about the Phoenix going up, like to 70-80 thousand feet which is what most of the fuel is for. It's pretty much smokeless and kinetic coming down. Learning a lot from your vids. If you haven't heard of it by now you all should check out The Fighter Pilot Podcast. It's hosted by F/A-18 Top Gun drivers.
Awesome stuff dude, been getting smashed by F-14's on the AEF server and it's all Phoenix. This vid will be of great benefit. Also, AIM-54 do go way up, often to 100,000' feet. Insane! And yes, the Podcast by Jello is pure gold :-) A must for every DCS aficionado.
gundog4314 Interestingly the aim-120 models this behavior at long range. I find the long range shot is very effective against the Su-27 because they use SARHs and need to keep me painted. Check the vids of one my experiments. ua-cam.com/video/w1L1XowbGt4/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/Ktl03oPJmfE/v-deo.html
I don’t understand, why do we use the AMRAAM if the Phoenix is kicking it’s ass? The last video you did it seemed like it was useless against the Phoenix
Matsimus hey man nice to see u again, I personally feel the phoenix is superior. And for those that say it wasn't built to hit fighters I point to data of the Iranians using it against the Iraqis figthers from 1980-88. It may not have been designed to take out fighters but it does a pretty decent job of it. In this video yes I took out the tomcat but in real life I feel like the tomcat would have bugged out. The Pheonix gives such a great standoff distance it's hard to counter it. I think in real life they moved away from it because of cost, weight, and the fact that the solid fuel corrods overtime. Seems to me they opted to go for efficiency over brute force. That's just my 2 cents.
Only big advantage to the Phx is range and speed...both of which have their weaknesses as well. A military has to weigh the pluses and minuses for each weapon system and apply the gov’ts political intentions + risk management. There is no “Golden Bullet” that can be used across the board in every situation. (One of the Phx’s big drawbacks was its size and weight...basically only the F-14 could carry it.)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard somewhere that one single phoenix missile used in combat one time took out multiple fighters that were flying in formation. Apparently the large blast from it's warhead was devastating to the small fighters.
That Story with the AIM-54 killing 3 MiG-23's in the Iran Irak war floats around a lot, there is no real proof for it other than the Pilot telling the story. It is conceivable because the warhead of the phoenix is huge and the Floggers where flying in very close formation. But it might just be a legend. The 100+ kills for the F-14 are also to be taken with a big grain of salt, because they are mostly from the Iran Irak war. The source aren't the most trustworthy.
Cool, thanks man! I learned something that I now will definitely have to try. New PC is getting even closer to a build date. Should be back in the virtual skies next month!
Awesome dude! If I understand this video, the secret to defeating the Phx is to know how doppler radar works...if one appears to not move toward or away from the missile, it’s like you’re not even there! Good work!
@@dcsworldiran the aim54 is more like an sarh with just the very last appeoach of done by its own radar. It's not like the aim 120 where it's gonna really track you with its radar.
As I understand it, the notch maneuver accomplishes two things: 1. It forces the missile to apply huge lead 2. It zeroes out the doppler effect as the target aircraft has no speed vector towards the missile and that's what breaks the track - doppler radars are looking exactly for that small difference in wavelength in the return signal - if there is none, they discard the return as ground clutter.
Nice work (again). I must admit, when I gave you my own advice of how to avoid the 54, I wasn't thinking of notching, but rather, just making fast wide turns left & right in front of the missile to force it to burn up kinetic energy adapting to your moves. Notching seemed to be much better (and easier) to do, so thanks for the valuable lesson. The wisdom of the crowds saved the day LOL - almost like you got sent to TOPGUN and they taught you this tactic. (which they probably do/did!) :-)
ahah yes sir, I tried ur tactic actually, I tried a lot of stuff, with your tactic the aim54 loses speed but no where enough to slow it down to a point that its not a threat anymore, its so fast and starts with so much initial energy that I could only get 2 legitimate turns in front of it before it hit me at like mach 3.6 lol. Thanks for the suggestion tho, I guess we both learned something here today.
Yep, indeed. And that's the beauty of a game. You can test these theories without dying, so that hopefully in real life you won't bite the big one straight away! ;-)
From what I know Phoenix has a semi active option. So in case you notched the missile you wouldn't be able to notch it's carrier at the same time. Therefore missile would get correction from the Tomcat in semi-active mode. But actually this is 6 years old material, I do not play DCS, I'm and idiot and many things may have changed since then. Still a great video and explanation. I've been watching your videos over last 2 years even without playing DCS. Keep it up)
Enjoy watching anything F-14 Tomcat related. My Pops served in US Navy F-14 Squadrons retired Masterchief RIP 2018. Tomcat best looking fighter jet, ever.
I bet if there wouldn’t be any f-14 lovers, if top gun didn’t exist....thanks to that movie it gained the tomcat famousness, or else it wouldn’t be recognized so much or even being cared.
Oh, I remember that the pulse doppler radar is only able to track the target incoming or outgoing . That means if you take the plane to the course of right angle, you are invisible for the radar. Thanks for the interesting video!
Nice follow up! I'm really curious to see you do these tests again once the new f-14 and aim-54 models are out, I think it'll be a really different fight but really the same strategy applies.
ya a lot of people have been saying they like it, It will remain on almost all my dogfight tactical analysis videos. I also haven't seen too many channels doing it so it seems to be unique somewhat.
I found it interesting that the missile went active only seconds after coming off of the rack. In reality I'm thinking it'd probably only have 20 seconds or so of terminal guidance, giving you much less time to notch and possibly forcing you to easily outmaneuver it.
Growling Sidewinder This is a guess but when you dropped your altitude you probably broke the TWS lock. You could have still been on the scope when the F-14 fired but when the radar swept back to update your position you weren't where you should have been. Since the missile launched with stale data an update would be required so the F-14 switched to STT which is when you got the first RWS tone. When you notched the STT lock was broken almost immediately. You can see the missile alter course slightly but if it was active it would have cranked hard to pull lead. I believe the second RWS tone was the seeker going active which was clearly way too late. It looks to me like you defeated the Phoenix fair and square. An interesting experiment would be to bring an AWACS into the picture and see if that alters the F-14s approach.
Evan Sacks Evan that's a very interesting analysis and makes sense, I also never thought of the AWACS thing. I'll give it a go and see if it makes for an interesting video.
I just did a quick test and can confirm the DCS F-14 AI launches in TWS mode and the Phoenix goes pitbull at 6 miles. The AI fired on me just inside 60 miles and I got the radar warning at 6 miles which is not enough room to jink the missile when it's coming in at mach 5. I believe the timing of the dive is actually the most critical part of the engagement. You started flanking right when you got the radar warning but you wouldn't have gotten a warning if you hadn't forced him into STT. Good shit man. It's definitely a solid strategy. My next test is to see how feasible it is to gain that altitude back during the angle fight. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the 14 having that altitude advantage while closing. If he stayed in lag pursuit he would have eventually gotten behind you.
The real thing was designed top take out entire squads of large and heavy bombers in tight formation that handle like whales, not chase highly agile small targets.
Nice video, some remarks: 1) With the second missile you bet the farm on the notching tactic being effective and using mainly your RWR for situational awareness (SA). It worked. However, given the short launch distance, the missile was still highly energetic when it closed on you, around mach 3 in TacView. From the RWR you knew the missile lost track of you only at the very last moment. Myself, I would not been that fateful and would have tried a hard break into the missile. 2) The video is of course intended to demonstrate notching and the F-14 could have had any skin. However, if wishing to represent an Iranian F-14, these were armed with AIM-54As, AIM-7Es and AIM-9Ps, originally. (Tom Cooper's book on Iranian F-14s.) 3) Next set-up: 2 vs 2.
I don't know how DCS works but I have a few strategy suggestions to try. 1) At start climb at full speed as high as you can towards the f-14. When he fires the first missile start descending facing the f-14 shut down both engines and your radar. Fire some chaff & flares, a few after every 10 sec. Bank your f-18 with rudder a few degrees left or right. Or turn 90 degrees as you did. No hard turns so don't lose airspeed. Start your radar for a few seconds to see where is missile and f-14. When the missile goes by missing your aircraft turn towards the f-14. If the timing is right it will be close to fire your missiles to it. 2) At start head towards the f-14 at top speed. When the f-14 fires the first missile descend as close to the ground as you can. Observe enemy missile. At half the distance from you shut down engines and radar. Start firing some chaff & flares, a few after every 10 sec. Phoenix should miss you and hit the ground or water. Turn on radar and engines. Climb full speed to f-14. Fire 2 missiles with 5-10 sec delay 1st from 2nd. If there is any enemy missile coming to you do the same as above. 3) At start head at top speed towards the nearest mountain. Stick close to the ground and follow the climbing and the descending to the other side. If you time it right enemy missiles should strike the mountains. When the f-14 is close fly at top speed at it fire 2 missiles with 5-10 sec delay 1st from 2nd and turn back to hide at the mountain.
Phoenix was very much OP in its day because it kept the enemy fully defensive all the way to the merge (which would likely never happen). If a flight of Tomcats can string out an AIM-54 every minute or two, the adversary must maneuver defensively and pilot workload becomes overwhelming. The RIO steers the missiles while the driver focuses on getting to an advantageous short-range firing position, which would be easy against highly distracted adversaries. Packs of F-14s would have murdered just about anything they might have faced. Even if they run out of missiles they are decent in a gunfight and they can outrun almost anything in delta configuration. Most forget the long range optical targeting capabilities of the F-14. Once they detected a target, they could lock on it optically from way, way out and shut down emissions and stalk silently. They could launch the AIM-54 without emitting and not alert the target until that AIM-54 was diving. It was already over by then. Those Russian bombers were so effed.
not to mention the f-14 was the tightest turning platform. It was able to endure the highest-g-loads whether sustained or instantaneous of any other fighter known to man. At 20 degrees the wing loading was slightly under 50 PSF. With wings fully back about 83-85 depending on ordinance weight which is quite remarkable seeing as that's about the f-16's wing loading. But at 68 degrees it's only meant to go fast, not turn, yet it still can turn quite tight indeed. ARound 40-50 degrees is your high-g sustained turn-ability. At slow speed 20 degrees can get you very high gs very quickly but cannot sustain them.
@@noone6489 The F15 had superior maneuverability to the F14, except at lowest speeds due lacking variable geometry wings. F15 also maintained a superior P/W ratio even when the F14B version finally did away with unreliable under-powered Tf30 engines for the GE F110's. IT was only nessary for the tomcat to have a Rio because because the AWG9 was older radar technology. The F-14's radar is just not as good as the F-15's period. It was older tech, required more manual filtering, and it was optimized for use over the sea, which means it has mediocre terrain clutter filtering.Operating the radar was kind of like an art performed by the RIO. The skill of the RIO using the various filters and settings produced the nice (or ugly) radar picture seen by the pilot. Whereas in the F-15, this is all done automatically and care-free by a single person, but in the Tomcat it would have been an unreasonable workload on the pilot and hence the RIO. This is one of the primary reasons why Israel who had thoroughly evaluated both aircraft had chosen the F15 Eagle over the Tomcat, all the while to top it off the F15 was cheaper to purchase per unit and more cost effective to maintain of the two aircraft. Thats not to say the Tomcat isnt a great aircraft. It was an excellent for what it was intended for . A fleet defense interceptor ( to shoot down soviet bombers and fired anti ship missiles) with secondary fighter capabilities. It certainly was the navies best A2A aircraft and the F-15 certainly isn't untouchable.
@@kcz1093 the f-14D had the apg-71, which was superior to yet based on the apg-70 that was found on the F-15. Also, the RIO is there because 4 eyes are better than 2. It is for the interception mission in which at times supersonic speeds need to be sustained and the pilot would have a harder time looking down to find his target, as well as the RIO being able to catch that small tiny little aircraft the pilot didn't quite see. The f-14 is a navy platform, Israel doesn't have any aircraft carriers at least as far as I know, and they didn't have any back when the f-14 was in service. Plus, israel has always been owned by the corporations here in america, and, like we pushed the f-35 on them, we always pushed whatever else we wanted them to buy on them, because having us as an ally apparently is not cheap. If you honestly base your entire belief on the f-15 being superior due to israeli buying it, then ask the japanese who almost bought the f-14 over the f-15 becuase the f-14A beat 2v2 vs f-15 eagles in a mock dogfight when the fight was over within minutes. Japan caved into pressure from mcdonnell because we also own japan militarily. They don't even want the f-35 and they buy it anyway to save face. *Nice america! Nice little america! Friend. FRIIIEEEENNDDD* Lastly, ask why iran to this day flies the f-14A, and how it has managed to keep 40 of the remaining tomcats flying to this day, and why, despite owning mig-29s and recently purchasing some su-30s from russia, they still consider the f-14A the cream of the crop. The shah bought the tomcat in the 70s, and since he was actually a pilot who was extremely knowledgeable about fighter jets and what his country needed, chose the tomcat after seeing it perform a superior 8.5g+ sustained maneuver during a flyoff against the f-15. Whereas the f-15 at the time could only hope to get 7.5gs out of it's frame. Not to mention that it is well documented the f-14A had a superior close-in dogfight kill ratio over the f-15 in mock combat, 2:1. That's with shitty TF-30 engines, forget the F-14B and D peformances, they smoked the competition vs f-22 or f-15.
@@noone6489 Nope the F-14 was not that capable in a dogfight unless it was low on fuel and not heavily loaded with AIM-54s which were 1000 pounds each. The engines on the D variants were only 25000 pounds thrust at full afterburner (the variants with 29,000 were not used by the navy). The F-14 empty weight was near 44,000 pounds. Not even in the same class of power to weight (which is needed for turn sustainment) as some other fighters. For example the F-15C has an empty weight of a tad under 24,000 pounds and two engines of 23,000 pounds thrust each. The F-16C empty is just under 19,000 pounds with a 28600 pound thrust engine. So the F-14 had only 6000 pounds of margin before dropping to a 1 to 1 power to weight ratio. The F-15C by comparison nearly 4 times that.
Nice work. Why didn't I think of that? After the two AIM54's missed, the tomcat pilot probably swallowed real hard and thought, "Oh shit. This guys knows what he's doing."
Thanx Heater..I'm a retired Navy avionics tech and worked on a test bench that supported the majority of the Tomcat's avionics systems back in the day..it was a great, sexy looking bird, but became a maintenance nightmare with all the upgrades to its mission profile and such in the late 90's and early 2000's.
Fly in at 50,000 ft. Full speed level. When he fires, dive straight at him. Full afterburner. Fire 2 am120 missles and jinks hard when his missle is about 2 miles out. You need to close the distance as fast as possible. Straight on most missles can’t turn as quick as a fighter, especially at higher altitude, thinner air does not let the missle turn quickly. Try it !!
i think he means that a lower air density makes a phoenix less capable at higher altitudes if it isn't still burning propellant. Just because it CAN pull so many Gs doesn't mean it will when it only has kinetic energy to work with. I could be wrong. Also this f-14 announcement from heatblur really has my jimmies in bundle.
Thank you very much. ur suggestion didnt work; actually, it was a quick death lol. too quick to even make a video about it. Thanks for the suggestion tho it was fun to try.
Notching is pretty efficient when it comes to Fox 1 type missiles but for Fox 3 capable missiles, it really depends on the engagement range... Beyond 25NM, I guess trying to use the doppler weaknesses of those old generation radars is a good strategy since the missile only becomes active around 10NM... Below 25NM, I still think you need to create distance with the threat... Thus dragging full burner can be really efficient as you maintain a high speed ratio... Anyway, this would need to be adapted depending on the MAR of each threat you face. I don't really trust DCS missile flight model so I try to use my BVR strategies on BMS mostly. But your video was interesting though. Cheers
Learning the F-15c atm and was doing some reading about the aim-120, got curious about the aim-54 and was surprised to read that the aim-54 never scored any kills in the hands of US F-14 drivers and in fact they failed to hit all 3 of the only attempts ever shot in anger at opposing aircraft! That's a 100% fail rate from US F-14s LOL.
Well, I found notching a Phoenix is like a lottery: sometimes it succeeds, sometimes not. The funny thing is, for me notching worked better on Persian Gulf map than in Nevada. Stealth approach is also impossible, when my Hornet is 120 feet above ground, and Tomcat's altitude is 25000 feet, he still can track me, despite I seem to be below his radar's scanning cone, and default radar position at the beginning of the mission should be straight ahead with zero elevation. I don't think it's well modelled in DCS. What is more, an AIM-54 seems to not respect the rule: higher speed, bigger turn radius. I watched Phoenixes flying 3000 kph and turning like a ballet dancer.
On tacview, the target aspect is always shown below the green line, if you reverse the viewing order (from F14 to your F18) it would show that your aspect is 90L which is the perfect notching angle.
I've seen videos of guys who actually built themselves a simulator with all the goodies. But, people like me, just have a computer, monitor, and a flight sticks. And I'm curious about your setup, Growling Sidewinder? What HOTAS do you have?
Very good! Those missiles are a pain in the neck to avoid. But usually if you get a rwr of that missile, it is very close and goes pitbull. So you have the burner on and do a notch, cross fingers. But those can hit you at any angle
One thing I'm continually surprised by is how the tomcat doesn't try to pop you from the max range of the Phoenix. It's got 190km versus the 142km + closing velocity you start at. Not saying it would be any more (or less) effective, just interesting in how it holds the range. Maybe it just doesn't know how many tomcats you've killed in the past by wittling the range down ;) Either way, gj.
if I had to guess I think it comes down to how u set the AI of the f14, I find with AI set to high the f14 waits for closer ranges to fire, which would increase probability of kills. thats my guess. but ur right its a bit odd. I think they'll rework the AI for the actual official release of the tomcat in the near future.
So basically, your check turn would show zero Doppler shift relative to the Tomcat's radar (assuming it's an AWG-9; I'm not sure if the APG-71 would've addressed this in the D model, or any software improvement to the Phoenix, for that matter) and it would break lock...Anyway, it was intended to kill Bears, Badgers and other similar Soviet bombers capable of carrying long range antiship missiles at a distance from a CVBG.
I was kind of suspecting this as well. The Phoenix isn't necessarily a fire and forget weapon, but it's acting like one here exclusively. Also suspect it holds the fire range due to the fact the weapon doesn't arc upward for efficiency.
another suggestion: stay high (at first), so the enemy may shoot the missile sooner; this will burn out the booster and if you then crank (not radar notching), it will run out of energy fast, trying to match your vector. Esp. if you couple the notching with decreasing altitude and reversing the crank to the other side, you'll be able to evade the missile too. The problem with going low: you'll decrease your chance of shooting back, as he can and will fire several times before you can. And he'll be closer and closer, meaning the missile will have more and more energy to get to you.
Being new to all of this, this may be a dumb question. Are you notching the missile or the aircraft that fired the missile? Or are you notching the missile and trying to keep his aircraft perpendicular to yours? Thank you...
Just a thought. In the vid 2nd shot you had an opportunity to mask yourself behind a hill. Terrain masking is very effective if your already low. Notching and then climb then dive also caused the missile to use up extra energy. This bleeds energy and the missile can vet out of sink and lose lock as well.
ya terrain masking is always great, Id always rather use that, but I wanted to show how notching works in this video, also, in real life the phoenix comes down on ur head from very high altitude hiding behind a mountain might not help lol. (I think they will change the aim54 flight model to a more realistic version once the heatblur f14 offically comes out)
@@GrowlingSidewinder Yep understand. Missiles normally only turn active in the final phase if flight. If you mask early and the main aircraft radar loses lock you should have no further missile danger. Once missiles lose the target unlike the movies they do not reaquire a target. They go ballistic and then detonate. I had 20 years as a weapons tech. Im pretty sure im correct. Love the vids.keep at it. :)
Gunnie's Lets Fly VFR awesome dude. Ya that reminds me of the scene from behind enemy lines when those missiles were doing u turns and coming back after him lol. Thanks bro. Appreciate the comment and the knowledge bomb.
@@blkspade23 not true I think Stacey... The launch aircraft must lock the missile to the tgt as the data is normally transferred via cable to the missile from the aircraft as it launches. So you have to get a lock warning. You would be correct maybe on the tws not necessarily being detected by the tgt aircraft. :)
From my understanding, (in DCS) it should work against the 120. (ive seen some videos of people notching aim120s) notching any missile that uses a Doppler radar on-board guidance system should theoretically work. the only reason I did it for the aim54 was cuz I wanted to show how to defend against it without being forced into the weeds. With notching you can maintain some decent altitude and hit back more effectively.
Yes, this works against other AHM and SARH missiles in DCS. You'll also notice, at least in multiplayer where people do it regularly, that when your target notches your aircraft radar then you will also lose lock and have to reacquire, yourself, whenever they turn back out of that notch on you.
The notch (or beam) is a very basic defensive maneuver designed to defeat a pulsed doppler radar. In order to reduce clutter from ground returns and slow moving objects, doppler radars will reject returns below a set closure speed. This "notch" depends on the radar and can be adjusted on many radars. The quicker one turns into the notch the better chance the maneuver will work. Additionally, you need to "update" your heading to keep the threat radar on the 3/9 line or you're closure will eventually exceed the max notch velocity.
Thanks for the class on knotching very usefull, I was wondering can knotching be used against the S-300 or S-400 TRIMPH since that's senerio is probably presenting itself?
Not recommended. Not only do they use multiple radars for search and track. They are multiple kinds of radars. Terrain masking, driving the missile into the ground, and running are your only options. Most SAM's can be defeated by beaming but not the S-300 or S-400. Not because you are notching them but because you are killing the missiles energy.
Dumb kinda question. Please go easy on me. The aim54 (to my knowledge) is a long range missile that rides a radar beam until it get close enough to us it's own internal radar set. This missile and it's range is fascinating. I'm sure it's a bombers worst nightermare. Was this missile designed for that main purpose or was it also good at highly maneuverable fighter jet planes as well? At it's longer ranges would it be able to maneuver and hit a fighter trying to avoid it or was it not nearly as effective? The range of this thing is amazing compared to the amraam. I know both would never actually make it to their max ranges and be effective. At least with the amraam if you are say 10-15 miles away it's fairly easy to defeat. What was the pheonix like?
sonichuizcool well I can't speak for long range shots on agile fighters. As far as I know no such data exists maybe tests on drones or something however one thing the data does exist for its the Iranian use of the aim54 against Iraq from 1980-88 where Iranian tomcats scored 160 confirmed kills on Iraqi fighters. The interesting thing to note is that the Iranians claimed to have fired at very low ranges between 9-15 miles if I recall those numbers correctly. So although the missile wasn't designed to hit fighters it seemed very capable of doing so.
@@GrowlingSidewinder Wow, the Iranian factor. I didnt even think to look in that direction! I completely forgot about the persian-cats and that whole chunk of history with the shah. Thanks!!!
In your video you got launch warning right after the F-14 launched a missile. In reality you wouldn't know about the launch untill the missile guidance went active at around 11 miles from you (usually the F-14 would launch Phoenix in TWS mode which wouldn't trigger your RWR launch warning). That would give you roughly 11 seconds to react (mach 5 = 3600 mph which roughly equals to 1 mile per second) if you were beaming the missile, the time would be shorter if you would take the missile head-on. Initially you should notch the missile carrier (to prevent the potential launch), and after the missile goes active you should notch the missile. Current implementation in DCS is not correct at the moment - as you noted Phoenix has a parabolic flight path, with ceiling up to 100 000 ft. I'm curious to see the correct implementation of this beast of a missile. One thing to try out (when the HB F-14 comes out) is to down an anti-ship-missile with the Phoenix, which supposedly the missile is capable of.
I would expect that a good RWR (in real life) could tell the difference between RWS, TWS, lock, and STT modes based on the fraction of the time the emitting radar is painting you. The missile launch warning (again, in real life) uses BOTH information from the radar and from the datalink to the missile (it's encrypted but the RWR can still tell that the link has been established). Since the AIM-54 is a SARH missle in midcourse, I don't know how much datalink traffic there would be, but there would have to be enough radar energy being reflected from you by the shooter's radar for the AIM-54 to see the returns. Can that really be done in TWS mode? I would think a lock would be needed (not single target track but a normal lock which still allows seeing other targets on TWS)
I really enjoyed these kind of tutorial series. How about you show us some methods about using the Phoenix missile in TWS against multiple targets. There are different ways to do it, so I think this would give you enough content for your next video.
In his book "Roger Ball", Capt John Munroe explained how, as an Aggressor pilot, by doing a vertical dive while his wingman stayed high for distraction, he could outwit the F-14's Doppler Radar and then hide in ground clutter and effectively fly underneath the F-14's and then hit them from behind. The question then really is how well is the F-14's Doppler Radar simulated? Would this approach work in DCS?
Energy for a missile is really rocket impulse and it is in seconds. Impulse is constant, and if thrust increased the time of flight is reduced. Roughly means the final velocity of the rocket once it exhausted its propellant if it were fired in outer space.
Do you know of any resources for information on missiles and how they work in detail? I've found it difficult to find any real information on anything specific, just the generalities.
i do not, everything I know I've learned from reading hundreds of small vague articles over the years. sorry man, i'm sure someone here can point u in the right direction. hopefully they see ur comment.
You won't find much, even for a retired system such as the AIM-54...which is why I wouldn't put any weight on translating missile performance in DCS to the real world. It's all guesswork and handwavium. You can find loads on radar theory, what makes the real world radar sets special is the logic build in.
I’m new to this, so my question might sound dumb but what is the name of the flight simulator that you use. My father is a retired Air Force general and he is 84 years old now and I would love to show him this.
The AIM-54 has at least two flight modes. "direct fire" where the Radar on the missile fires up almost as it leaves the rail, and it generally flies directly to the target and "loft" mode where the target is much further away and the missile climbs to get more range for a given level of propulsion. In "loft" mode there is mid-course correction and the radar does not switch on until the terminal phase is started. Using "loft" mode a QF102 drone (I think) was shot down in excess of 100nm from the launch aircraft. Theoretically AIM-54 was supposed to be replaced by the "more capable" (my ass) ALRAAM. The latest gen AMRAAM with the higher impulse rocket motors has increased the range to the point where ALRAAM would have been almost obsolete if it had been developed and Meteor has a longer range still (basically an AMRAAM with a British ramjet engine instead of rocket).
Also you make an escape in at other mode : You need to pick down with angle -10 or 20 degrees , then on you need to go up on hi altitude , first rocket it's go in the ground , then on hi altitude you launch an amraam to the bandit also will lunch an aim-54 but aim 54 will be gone on parabolic trajectory but you make an escape 180 from bandit with down angle -80 degree the aim-54 will be lost target and go up to hi altitude , amraam in this moment its still go on bandit , what you gone do just go on his 6 an make an other launch that will exclude his maneuver on you , OK you are on his 6 you have total priority on situation . Sorry for my English )))
If the F14 is aware of you notching and changes his direction accodingly, is this tactic still sufficient? Could you check that out what happens if the other pilot counters you notching him?
Hmm I dont have DCS yet but why to take so many Amraams and Sidewinders? Just put 2 Aim-9 on wingtips and 2 Aim-120 under fuselage and Hornet should have better speed/acceleration, in real life these double rails make a lot of drag.
Only having 4 missiles might be fine in a testing scenario, but you will quickly lose all your teeth in multiplayer. The Mirage 2000 can make due with that loadout because it is what it's got, but the 530 is also deadly as sin. Having more missiles than the enemy can be a quality of it's own. But it's all mission dependent.
It is your imperative as a pilot to launch under circumstances so the enemy can't easily defeat your weapons. DIVE after launch. If the target is in front of clear sky, notching doesn't really work all that well. Also, notching works against pretty much any radar guided weapon, the 530 is still one of the better SARH sticks.
Not an expert on radar, but wouldn't your initial descend be unnecessary since a Doppler radar is specifically designed to ignore static objects on the ground (which is why notching defeats it)?
Got a question for Fox 3's in general: As you notch it, the missile doesn't know where you are, but does the mothership see you? If so, should the data from the mothership guide the missile at least at a slight lead angle, which is definetily not as dangerous as pitbull pursuit, but still better than totally blind forward trajectory. Hope I didn't formulated question badly Ps. I got the same results online as GS here, but it always confused me why missile doesn't trail me if I still got a lock from bogey (Not that I'm complaining)
dear Sidewinder I am baffled with two things: As long as semi active radar missile like AIM54 doesn't go to active phase the pilot has no indicating that a missile has been launched and when it goes to active, then you have RWR warning, why in your case as soon as those f-14s launched at you , your RWR started warning you? second question: suppose F-14 was firing AIM-7 at you, does it mean the RWR never going to warn you since it is always stays semi active ??
A notching question : if your in the tomcat and you shot a 54 then turn to the edge of you gimble then shoot another one they will be comming at you from diffrent angles. Can you still notch the 2nd one too?
Growling Sidewinder Latest AIM-54C ECCM Sealed software upgrades were for Phoenix missile look down shoot down of cruise missiles low over the water. I believe water gives more clutter than land. Fleet firing results are still classified.
@ 2:27. "...gonna make it easier to notch"!? Why would the notch be more effective by going straight at the target (very little or no lateral velocity)? Wasn't notching all about making a doppler radar confuse a target with the ground? As far as DCS's manual tell, that only happens if the radar closes in on a target which has the same closure speed as the ground (when the target flies in a constant 90 degrees direction to the left or right of the radar that is closing in) or has almost zero closure speed (the target runs away straight from the radar at the same speed of the radar) which is known as the 2nd notch. Going head to head on a target which uses pulse radar helps that radar never experience a notch. It receives the best signal that way, so it's the other way around of what you tell. Only when going sideways and lower (which makes the radar see you below the horizon) or when going away from the targeting radar at the same speed at which it closes makes it lose track.
The question is what happens if he fires again as your turning in? This only worked because the cat didn't shoot when you commited. You could turn back and hope to notch, but then you're getting into heater range, still defensive.
ya ur not wrong, I don't know I just think first instinct is to go to winders when its that close. BUT, and i'm sure about this, the aim54 comes off the rails and gets to mach 4 very fast, at those speeds that close maybe its not maneuverable ? I honestly don't know. I know the Iranians claimed to always fire them at 12-9 miles and never any closer than that why? I don't know.
wait a minute, you get the missile warning the moment he launched it? The whole problem with the 54 is that I usually get the warning 3 secs before I die, cause of TWS mode.
@@GrowlingSidewinder ok, yes, but that doesn't solve my problem of me getting killed every game by a phonex that beeps 3 seconds before impact, it's so unfair, that weapon should totally be banned in every multiplayer game, unless used in STT
Lol I don’t know about that man people dodge aim54s all the time, if ur waiting for the RWR to start evasive and defensive manoeuvres you’re basically ensuring you get killed. Once you see f-14 on RWR you need to start flying elusively against him even better if you can get him on radar so you can see his actual range at 40miles out you need to ASSUME a missile has been fired in TWS and try to defeat it long before it goes pit bull on you. As for the topic of how to fly defensively against a tomcat that’s a more complex topic but it involves changes in aspect and altitude and notching forcing him to drop locks on you makes his life much harder.
I'm curious to see in DCS the F14 working with the F15 and F18, where the Phoenix will put the adversaries on the defensive before they have the chance to make a good first shot, then an Eagle or an Hornet can advace for the kill with AIM-120s at shorter range where they are more efective.... this is my personal opinion. I believe on server where a team of well coordinated pilots using one Tomcat and few other figters can create kaos in the oposite side! Will see in few months....
Maybe I am a noob around here and the question is stupid ;) but what happens when the F-14 shoots 2 Phoenix with a short interval after each other (I know AI doesn't). They would have a bit different bearing relative to each other and so different angles to you. Could there be a problem when you notch the first missile and maybe not be able to notch the second one cause you don't have it on the 90 degree line? Or does it not need to be exactly 90 degrees?
Can you explain to me how the radar works? And how you could tell where the missile was coming from? **(I ONLY WATCH GAMEPLAY & AND IM INTERESTED IN IT)**
TheGreatTyler Radar works by projecting energy out away from aircraft. As these waves of invisible energy collide with solid objects such as another aircraft, they bounce off and back to the original aircraft. The computer system in the aircraft measures the minute differences between the projection of the waves and the return of the waves that bounce off the enemy aircraft. This is similar to echolocation in bats. Putting out a sound wave, listening for those waves to bounce off an object, and then using that data to figure out exactly where that target object is in space. Sonar, HFDF and laser range finding are all very similar in concept. The player in this video knows where the missile is coming from because he has an RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) on his plane. This detects radar produced by other sources. So the opponents radar in this mission hits the players plane. The RWR computer analyzed the data, and estimates distance and direction of the opponent based on the radar energy he produces. This is basically just the opposite of what I explained above. These computers systems are so advanced that they can actually detect exactly what aircraft is hitting it with radar. In this it says “U” for unknown but if it was a MiG 29 the RWR would show a diamond with “29” on it in the RWR screen. It can actually detect the differences in each type of planes radar signals. Giving the pilot vital info. A MiG 21 locking you with radar is much different than a MiG 25 locking you with radar. And requires a much difference response from you. Also, the missiles fired by the opponent have their own radar on them. Which the player can detect using his RWR as well. When a missile is fired the radar system sends out a different and more powerful signal in order to ensure a hit from the missile. Generally, playing this game will go something like this: You’re flying along and you hear your RWR kick on. It uses a “blip” tone to tell you that another aircraft is using its radar in your general area. Also tells you what kind of aircraft it is. Then, the enemy aircraft locks you with his radar. The computer then gives you a much more distressing alarm tone to tell you that the situation is now dangerous as that aircraft has locked you. It also shows you which aircraft locked you on the RWR. Then the enemy launches a radar guided missiles. This will send your RWR into a fit of loud beeps as a desperate alarm to alert you that you need to react to this imminent threat. Plenty of UA-cam videos and articles written on this. Try Wikipedia for a good general overview.
I wonder if the F14 fires 2 phoenix at 10-15 sec interval, the fact that the 2 missiles have different angles of starting (tracking?) should make it hard/impossible to notch both
to mask myself into the terrain below the radar. to make its job even harder, picking me out of terrain and therefore it doesn't have the luxury of picking me out of a clear blue sky.
I don't get this... The Phoenix missile used a pulsed-doppler Radar, which meant that even at zero relative speed, it would find you and blow you out of the sky. I tuned in to see the notching fail against the Phoenix, but then saw that it was just a game.
I think you misunderstand. Pulse Doppler radars reject things at zero relative speed to the radar since there is no Doppler shift unless the object is moving closer to or away from the emitter. It's how they have look down shoot down capability by being able to pick moving objects out of the ground returns. The point of notching is to trick the radar into thinking you are just a ground return.
A Doppler return only measures frequency shifts. The "pulse" part of the radar measures the distance to the object. The Phoenix missile can switch to pure pulse mode if the Doppler shift drops below a certain threshold. In the final run to the target, it could also switch to continuous mode. It was specifically designed to be immune to this sort of "zero" frequency shift defense and still destroy the targeted craft. It did have many successful tests against this kind of defense. The US had NO A2A kills with the missile, however, in any mode. The missile could be defeated by violent maneauvers at the last second, but since its exciter was silent during most of the flight and only switching on for the last couple of seconds, it made detection by the attacked a/c difficult.
@Steve K A Doppler return is the shift of the pulses. A Doppler radar uses a series of of pulses to determine the shift made to them by a moving object. These also determine distance. What the pilot can do is change something called the Pulse Repetition Frequency which which changes the number of pulses per second between a high, medium, and low setting and in some cases an interleaved setting that automatically switches between them on each bar scan. The pulse repetition frequency will do a few things such as determine the amount of Doppler filter and determine the max detection range of the radar. The higher the PRF the greater the detection range and the better the Doppler filter. This is why the AIM-54 is guided by the F-14's on board high PRF radar for most of it's flight since the AIM-54 has a medium PRF pulse Doppler radar in the seeker head which reduced the missiles acquisition range but medium PRF is better for terminal guidance and is more difficult to defeat with countermeasures and notching. Not that it can't be notched it's just more difficult to than a high PRF radar.
@Steve K Also, no it didn't have a specific design to be immune to "zero" frequency shift defense. If it were it would be even more susceptible to traditional countermeasures like chaff. Literally one bundle of chaff would defeat it. A single pulse system like you describe does not have the resolution or capability of guiding a high speed object into another high speed object. Like I said in my other comment. It uses a medium PRF pulse Doppler radar for terminal guidance which is less susceptible to a zero frequency shift defense, but till possible to do it to. Your margin of error is smaller on the notch. Instead of having a relative speed to the emitter of 60mph or lower to get filtered out by high PRF your relative speed would need to be 30mph or lower to get filtered out by medium PRF as an example.
Higher PRF does not equal higher detection range, or at least unambiguous detection range. High(er) PRFs allow for smaller range bins, but range ambiguity increases.
the EW screen is just a visual aid. I'm referring to keeping a 3/9 line to the f14. or a 90 degree angle to the f14. I know I've successfully "notched" him because the lock tone drops. so I know hes lost lock. he continues to turn which messes up my 90 degree notch so I have to continue to correct it, until the lock tone drops. and continue to do that until hes close enough for me to break off and go after him.
Quick clarification, you're not notching the missile, youre notching the guiding radar of the F14. At least for the first phoenix fired in the video. I believe that the missile only goes pitbull at 8 miles or so. It's at that point that you would have to notch the missile if it picks you up at all.
So based on your suggestions I went ahead and tried notching the Aim-54 and it worked out pretty well. Thanks for ur suggestions and I hope you enjoy the video.
Growling Sidewinder Nice video! If there were some mod to correct phoenix flight model to realistic one... Try now to fight against Mig-31 with R37 and 1 R40T+1 R40R or R77 (don't remember if mig31 can carry them). IRL R37 must be better than AIM54C, but it's too doesn't have proper FM.
nice! after the first notch you could probably get an amramm off while avoiding the second acquisition. Also , head on short range missile could just be broken with pitch and flare/chaff. I'd still rather be in the 14, they need to fix the pheonix flight characteristics.
Do more merge combat that is where the dogfighting and testing the air frame and thrust to weight ratio is. Any aircraft can be upgraded with modern avionics.
You make good videos providing intelligent analysis and narrative as well as interesting scenarios, tacview providing a good gods eye summary at the end. Keep it up, would like to see Foxbat, Super Hornet, Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen if they are in the game. Also stealthy F-22 and F-35. Scenarios are endless really, keep it up and keep enjoying.
Well it seems from this video that the F-14 didn't have any AIM-54 left to fire at you the moment before you launched at it...
Id be curious to see if a RIO could see your aspect changing on his screen and work to keep the lock despite getting Beamed cant wait to try this with the Tomcat later this year
I sent this to my dad because it reminded me of something he mentioned to me as a little kid. In 1978 he was flying F-111F's out of Mt Home and his wing operations officer sent him to Red Flag to look for new tactics. While at Red Flag, F-15 pilots mentioned losing C-130's when they'd make these kinds of turns. Albeit, they weren't doing it deliberately. Dad said what you're calling notching was one of the tactics he brought back to the 366th TFW, but never heard any more about it. He said, at the time, the maneuver would have been completely out of line with, then, current thinking. However, it would have been much more applicable with how 111's were used in Iraq. Personally, I read an account of two Iraqi Foxbats making a run at a flight of Eagles and pulling what was described as a "Soviet era anti-Eagle maneuver" whereby the F-15's did lose the two Foxbats for a time.
Thanks for your simulations. This is great stuff guys in his day really had to just think about and play out in their heads for lack of computing and display power. He's been enjoying your work quite a bit. Keeps the old man excited. Thanks again!
wow thats one hell of story, thanks for sharing my work him and letting me know how much hes enjoying it. I'm floored that he's enjoying this content to be honest. I'll try to make the content better and better as we go. hope he enjoyed the later material. thanks again for sharing that. thats a great story.
BTW, you're flying overland to give the Phoenix ground clutter, bear in mind it was designed to be used over water against anti-ship missile carrying bombers. They fired something like four rounds at Iraqi's violating the no-fly zone but never got a hit. So, may be some limitations operating over land. I read an account of a Tomcat crew which was part of our response to the Bakaara Market fight in Mogadishu. The pilot mentioned that, at that time, they never operated over land so they had no SAM warning system, as it wasn't needed at sea. SAM detection was visual-only. He mentioned they did visually ID a MANPAD fired at them and evaded it. Probably, the fleet was modified with sensors later on, and the D surely came with them because it had air-to-ground built in. Be interesting to see you take on a Tomcat over the open ocean.
Hey, it'd make my dad's day if you could do something with the RF-4C, which he flew in combat in N Vietnam out of Udorn in '68. Or, something with the F-111F which he flew out of Takhli in '73. Do the F-111F if you have to choose. He really loved that one and was #1 WSO in the fleet at the end of his career. He said "The F model was really the Cadillac of the 111's with the best engines and digital bomb-nav system."
Thanks again. You really bring back some memories for him!
Капитан Гейб hey man. Those planes don't exist in DCS as flyable for players. But I'll see if I can get some mods to make that possible. If I can pull it off I will its actually a cool idea for a video.
See if your Dad knew somebody named William Kennedy, He's my grandfather and died in an accident flying F-111's in Idaho in 1974
He was in 111's at Taklhi in 1974, so, he didn't know your grandfather. We didn't move to Mt. Home until after the fall of Saigon in May 1975. With that, the reason for the 111's to be in Thailand came to an end (to enforce the peace treaty that Nixon had forced the North to come to the Paris peace talks on). Dad also says that nobody died during his time with the 366th TFW at Mt. Home.
I love you tubers who take the time out of their day to read their comments. Thank you so much man, much respect ✊
thanks buddy, I really do enjoy reading the comments. Love the support I get from you guys, least I can do is respond to comments.
I was looking forward to seeing how Noodle's advice played out! Good video, good analysis, looking forward to more.
My dad is a retired USAF pilot (F-4 and F-15 driver). I sent him a link to your channel and he really likes it. :)
I appreciate that. lol i'm glad to hear he enjoyed it. thanks for sharing.
Thats cool asf he was a flyboy!!
Good job! You out thought the Tomcat. Excellent use of the appropriate tactics to beat a specific threat.
thanks zack. glad u enjoyed it man.
You are correct about the Phoenix going up, like to 70-80 thousand feet which is what most of the fuel is for. It's pretty much smokeless and kinetic coming down. Learning a lot from your vids. If you haven't heard of it by now you all should check out The Fighter Pilot Podcast. It's hosted by F/A-18 Top Gun drivers.
Thanks I'm glad ur enjoying the content, I hadn't heard of that but it sounds cool I'll check it out thanks
Awesome stuff dude, been getting smashed by F-14's on the AEF server and it's all Phoenix. This vid will be of great benefit. Also, AIM-54 do go way up, often to 100,000' feet. Insane! And yes, the Podcast by Jello is pure gold :-) A must for every DCS aficionado.
gundog4314 Interestingly the aim-120 models this behavior at long range. I find the long range shot is very effective against the Su-27 because they use SARHs and need to keep me painted. Check the vids of one my experiments.
ua-cam.com/video/w1L1XowbGt4/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/Ktl03oPJmfE/v-deo.html
I don’t understand, why do we use the AMRAAM if the Phoenix is kicking it’s ass? The last video you did it seemed like it was useless against the Phoenix
Matsimus hey man nice to see u again, I personally feel the phoenix is superior. And for those that say it wasn't built to hit fighters I point to data of the Iranians using it against the Iraqis figthers from 1980-88. It may not have been designed to take out fighters but it does a pretty decent job of it. In this video yes I took out the tomcat but in real life I feel like the tomcat would have bugged out. The Pheonix gives such a great standoff distance it's hard to counter it. I think in real life they moved away from it because of cost, weight, and the fact that the solid fuel corrods overtime. Seems to me they opted to go for efficiency over brute force. That's just my 2 cents.
Only big advantage to the Phx is range and speed...both of which have their weaknesses as well. A military has to weigh the pluses and minuses for each weapon system and apply the gov’ts political intentions + risk management.
There is no “Golden Bullet” that can be used across the board in every situation. (One of the Phx’s big drawbacks was its size and weight...basically only the F-14 could carry it.)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard somewhere that one single phoenix missile used in combat one time took out multiple fighters that were flying in formation. Apparently the large blast from it's warhead was devastating to the small fighters.
Because its too heavy and not meant for fast moving targets. The Phoenix was designed to kill bombers.
That Story with the AIM-54 killing 3 MiG-23's in the Iran Irak war floats around a lot, there is no real proof for it other than the Pilot telling the story. It is conceivable because the warhead of the phoenix is huge and the Floggers where flying in very close formation. But it might just be a legend. The 100+ kills for the F-14 are also to be taken with a big grain of salt, because they are mostly from the Iran Irak war. The source aren't the most trustworthy.
@growling sidewinder, thanks a lot for this. I couldn't get a solution for the early video. You contents help a lot.
glad u enjoyed it
Cool, thanks man! I learned something that I now will definitely have to try. New PC is getting even closer to a build date. Should be back in the virtual skies next month!
awesome brother. glad u enjoyed the video.
Awesome dude! If I understand this video, the secret to defeating the Phx is to know how doppler radar works...if one appears to not move toward or away from the missile, it’s like you’re not even there!
Good work!
thats exactly it my bro. u got it.
But AIM-54 is a semi active missile and uses it’s own radar as it gets close to target. I doubt notching works in real world.
@@dcsworldiran in rl if you notch the f14 radar the aim54 will go to waste.
Osama Almulla I was talking about the pit-bull phase
@@dcsworldiran the aim54 is more like an sarh with just the very last appeoach of done by its own radar. It's not like the aim 120 where it's gonna really track you with its radar.
As I understand it, the notch maneuver accomplishes two things:
1. It forces the missile to apply huge lead
2. It zeroes out the doppler effect as the target aircraft has no speed vector towards the missile and that's what breaks the track - doppler radars are looking exactly for that small difference in wavelength in the return signal - if there is none, they discard the return as ground clutter.
thats correct. u got it
The videos with the TAC view explanations were best
Nice work (again). I must admit, when I gave you my own advice of how to avoid the 54, I wasn't thinking of notching, but rather, just making fast wide turns left & right in front of the missile to force it to burn up kinetic energy adapting to your moves. Notching seemed to be much better (and easier) to do, so thanks for the valuable lesson. The wisdom of the crowds saved the day LOL - almost like you got sent to TOPGUN and they taught you this tactic. (which they probably do/did!) :-)
ahah yes sir, I tried ur tactic actually, I tried a lot of stuff, with your tactic the aim54 loses speed but no where enough to slow it down to a point that its not a threat anymore, its so fast and starts with so much initial energy that I could only get 2 legitimate turns in front of it before it hit me at like mach 3.6 lol. Thanks for the suggestion tho, I guess we both learned something here today.
Yep, indeed. And that's the beauty of a game. You can test these theories without dying, so that hopefully in real life you won't bite the big one straight away! ;-)
Damn had my headphones on when that boom hit sweet
Nice! Huge improvement on that one. Good job getting close!
Ya I feel much better about this one, thanks jeff.
From what I know Phoenix has a semi active option. So in case you notched the missile you wouldn't be able to notch it's carrier at the same time. Therefore missile would get correction from the Tomcat in semi-active mode. But actually this is 6 years old material, I do not play DCS, I'm and idiot and many things may have changed since then. Still a great video and explanation. I've been watching your videos over last 2 years even without playing DCS. Keep it up)
That is surprisingly effective. Cool to watch.
Enjoy watching anything F-14 Tomcat related. My Pops served in US Navy F-14 Squadrons retired Masterchief RIP 2018. Tomcat best looking fighter jet, ever.
I bet if there wouldn’t be any f-14 lovers, if top gun didn’t exist....thanks to that movie it gained the tomcat famousness, or else it wouldn’t be recognized so much or even being cared.
Oh, I remember that the pulse doppler radar is only able to track the target incoming or outgoing . That means if you take the plane to the course of right angle, you are invisible for the radar. Thanks for the interesting video!
Nice follow up! I'm really curious to see you do these tests again once the new f-14 and aim-54 models are out, I think it'll be a really different fight but really the same strategy applies.
can't wait for that myself. should be a blast.
you have the absolute best combat sim vids. This is awesome
thanks man, I really appreciate that
No problem! haha I've been binge watching your vids and I love the tactical analysis you always do.
ya a lot of people have been saying they like it, It will remain on almost all my dogfight tactical analysis videos. I also haven't seen too many channels doing it so it seems to be unique somewhat.
yeah it's very unique!
I found it interesting that the missile went active only seconds after coming off of the rack. In reality I'm thinking it'd probably only have 20 seconds or so of terminal guidance, giving you much less time to notch and possibly forcing you to easily outmaneuver it.
ya this is DCS flight model stuff, I'm hoping to see major improvements with the aim54 once they finally drop the tomcat.
Growling Sidewinder This is a guess but when you dropped your altitude you probably broke the TWS lock. You could have still been on the scope when the F-14 fired but when the radar swept back to update your position you weren't where you should have been. Since the missile launched with stale data an update would be required so the F-14 switched to STT which is when you got the first RWS tone. When you notched the STT lock was broken almost immediately. You can see the missile alter course slightly but if it was active it would have cranked hard to pull lead. I believe the second RWS tone was the seeker going active which was clearly way too late. It looks to me like you defeated the Phoenix fair and square. An interesting experiment would be to bring an AWACS into the picture and see if that alters the F-14s approach.
Evan Sacks Evan that's a very interesting analysis and makes sense, I also never thought of the AWACS thing. I'll give it a go and see if it makes for an interesting video.
I just did a quick test and can confirm the DCS F-14 AI launches in TWS mode and the Phoenix goes pitbull at 6 miles. The AI fired on me just inside 60 miles and I got the radar warning at 6 miles which is not enough room to jink the missile when it's coming in at mach 5. I believe the timing of the dive is actually the most critical part of the engagement. You started flanking right when you got the radar warning but you wouldn't have gotten a warning if you hadn't forced him into STT. Good shit man. It's definitely a solid strategy. My next test is to see how feasible it is to gain that altitude back during the angle fight. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the 14 having that altitude advantage while closing. If he stayed in lag pursuit he would have eventually gotten behind you.
Yet another great video my man
thanks brother.
That is one goddamm dangerous missile. I preview TONS of complaints about it being "OP" in multiplayer when they finally release the Tomcat.
That's because it IS OP. The real AIM-54 wasn't anywhere near this potent against highly maneuverable fighter-sized targets.
The real thing was designed top take out entire squads of large and heavy bombers in tight formation that handle like whales, not chase highly agile small targets.
If the F14 is at 260 notching it would be 350 or 170
You're an awesome mentor, hope your channel grows!, plz keep em coming! :)
thanks brother I'm learning just as much as you guys as we go along. thanks for your support
Thank you Mr. Growling Sidewinder, i gonna practice.
Nice video, some remarks:
1) With the second missile you bet the farm on the notching tactic being effective and using mainly your RWR for situational awareness (SA). It worked. However, given the short launch distance, the missile was still highly energetic when it closed on you, around mach 3 in TacView. From the RWR you knew the missile lost track of you only at the very last moment. Myself, I would not been that fateful and would have tried a hard break into the missile.
2) The video is of course intended to demonstrate notching and the F-14 could have had any skin. However, if wishing to represent an Iranian F-14, these were armed with AIM-54As, AIM-7Es and AIM-9Ps, originally. (Tom Cooper's book on Iranian F-14s.)
3) Next set-up: 2 vs 2.
You’re a cold blooded killer now. Awesome job.
slowly but surely getting better.
Every video you do, makes it one week earlier you'll get the Leatherneck Simulations Tomcat LOL. Good job!
lol is that how it works awesome
I don't know how DCS works but I have a few strategy suggestions to try.
1) At start climb at full speed as high as you can towards the f-14. When he fires the first missile start descending facing the f-14 shut down both engines and your radar. Fire some chaff & flares, a few after every 10 sec. Bank your f-18 with rudder a few degrees left or right. Or turn 90 degrees as you did. No hard turns so don't lose airspeed. Start your radar for a few seconds to see where is missile and f-14. When the missile goes by missing your aircraft turn towards the f-14. If the timing is right it will be close to fire your missiles to it.
2) At start head towards the f-14 at top speed. When the f-14 fires the first missile descend as close to the ground as you can. Observe enemy missile. At half the distance from you shut down engines and radar. Start firing some chaff & flares, a few after every 10 sec. Phoenix should miss you and hit the ground or water. Turn on radar and engines. Climb full speed to f-14. Fire 2 missiles with 5-10 sec delay 1st from 2nd. If there is any enemy missile coming to you do the same as above.
3) At start head at top speed towards the nearest mountain. Stick close to the ground and follow the climbing and the descending to the other side. If you time it right enemy missiles should strike the mountains. When the f-14 is close fly at top speed at it fire 2 missiles with 5-10 sec delay 1st from 2nd and turn back to hide at the mountain.
Nice vid, I don't even play DCS but I sub'ed just because vids are so we'll done and interesting.
Nice. Thanks for sharing. I will try notching with the Aim-54.
Epokalypse94 best of luck man
Phoenix was very much OP in its day because it kept the enemy fully defensive all the way to the merge (which would likely never happen). If a flight of Tomcats can string out an AIM-54 every minute or two, the adversary must maneuver defensively and pilot workload becomes overwhelming.
The RIO steers the missiles while the driver focuses on getting to an advantageous short-range firing position, which would be easy against highly distracted adversaries.
Packs of F-14s would have murdered just about anything they might have faced. Even if they run out of missiles they are decent in a gunfight and they can outrun almost anything in delta configuration.
Most forget the long range optical targeting capabilities of the F-14. Once they detected a target, they could lock on it optically from way, way out and shut down emissions and stalk silently. They could launch the AIM-54 without emitting and not alert the target until that AIM-54 was diving. It was already over by then.
Those Russian bombers were so effed.
not to mention the f-14 was the tightest turning platform. It was able to endure the highest-g-loads whether sustained or instantaneous of any other fighter known to man. At 20 degrees the wing loading was slightly under 50 PSF. With wings fully back about 83-85 depending on ordinance weight which is quite remarkable seeing as that's about the f-16's wing loading. But at 68 degrees it's only meant to go fast, not turn, yet it still can turn quite tight indeed. ARound 40-50 degrees is your high-g sustained turn-ability. At slow speed 20 degrees can get you very high gs very quickly but cannot sustain them.
@@noone6489
The F15 had superior maneuverability to the F14, except at lowest speeds due lacking variable geometry wings. F15 also maintained a superior P/W ratio even when the F14B version finally did away with unreliable under-powered Tf30 engines for the GE F110's.
IT was only nessary for the tomcat to have a Rio because because the AWG9 was older radar technology.
The F-14's radar is just not as good as the F-15's period. It was older tech, required more manual filtering, and it was optimized for use over the sea, which means it has mediocre terrain clutter filtering.Operating the radar was kind of like an art performed by the RIO. The skill of the RIO using the various filters and settings produced the nice (or ugly) radar picture seen by the pilot.
Whereas in the F-15, this is all done automatically and care-free by a single person, but in the Tomcat it would have been an unreasonable workload on the pilot and hence the RIO.
This is one of the primary reasons why Israel who had thoroughly evaluated both aircraft had chosen the F15 Eagle over the Tomcat, all the while to top it off the F15 was cheaper to purchase per unit and more cost effective to maintain of the two aircraft.
Thats not to say the Tomcat isnt a great aircraft. It was an excellent for what it was intended for . A fleet defense interceptor ( to shoot down soviet bombers and fired anti ship missiles) with secondary fighter capabilities. It certainly was the navies best A2A aircraft and the F-15 certainly isn't untouchable.
@@kcz1093 the f-14D had the apg-71, which was superior to yet based on the apg-70 that was found on the F-15. Also, the RIO is there because 4 eyes are better than 2. It is for the interception mission in which at times supersonic speeds need to be sustained and the pilot would have a harder time looking down to find his target, as well as the RIO being able to catch that small tiny little aircraft the pilot didn't quite see.
The f-14 is a navy platform, Israel doesn't have any aircraft carriers at least as far as I know, and they didn't have any back when the f-14 was in service. Plus, israel has always been owned by the corporations here in america, and, like we pushed the f-35 on them, we always pushed whatever else we wanted them to buy on them, because having us as an ally apparently is not cheap.
If you honestly base your entire belief on the f-15 being superior due to israeli buying it, then ask the japanese who almost bought the f-14 over the f-15 becuase the f-14A beat 2v2 vs f-15 eagles in a mock dogfight when the fight was over within minutes. Japan caved into pressure from mcdonnell because we also own japan militarily. They don't even want the f-35 and they buy it anyway to save face. *Nice america! Nice little america! Friend. FRIIIEEEENNDDD*
Lastly, ask why iran to this day flies the f-14A, and how it has managed to keep 40 of the remaining tomcats flying to this day, and why, despite owning mig-29s and recently purchasing some su-30s from russia, they still consider the f-14A the cream of the crop. The shah bought the tomcat in the 70s, and since he was actually a pilot who was extremely knowledgeable about fighter jets and what his country needed, chose the tomcat after seeing it perform a superior 8.5g+ sustained maneuver during a flyoff against the f-15. Whereas the f-15 at the time could only hope to get 7.5gs out of it's frame.
Not to mention that it is well documented the f-14A had a superior close-in dogfight kill ratio over the f-15 in mock combat, 2:1. That's with shitty TF-30 engines, forget the F-14B and D peformances, they smoked the competition vs f-22 or f-15.
@@noone6489 Nope the F-14 was not that capable in a dogfight unless it was low on fuel and not heavily loaded with AIM-54s which were 1000 pounds each. The engines on the D variants were only 25000 pounds thrust at full afterburner (the variants with 29,000 were not used by the navy). The F-14 empty weight was near 44,000 pounds. Not even in the same class of power to weight (which is needed for turn sustainment) as some other fighters. For example the F-15C has an empty weight of a tad under 24,000 pounds and two engines of 23,000 pounds thrust each. The F-16C empty is just under 19,000 pounds with a 28600 pound thrust engine. So the F-14 had only 6000 pounds of margin before dropping to a 1 to 1 power to weight ratio. The F-15C by comparison nearly 4 times that.
Nice work. Why didn't I think of that? After the two AIM54's missed, the tomcat pilot probably swallowed real hard and thought, "Oh shit. This guys knows what he's doing."
haha and in real life he would have bugged the hell out. but since hes AI he came in for the kill got himself killed.
Growling Sidewinder
True. Now, did he have AIM 120’s? It might be time for another video bro! Haha
The Tomcat never carried AMRAAMs, it's medium range weapon was AIM-7 Sparrow
Donald Tireman
Excellent point.
Thanx Heater..I'm a retired Navy avionics tech and worked on a test bench that supported the majority of the Tomcat's avionics systems back in the day..it was a great, sexy looking bird, but became a maintenance nightmare with all the upgrades to its mission profile and such in the late 90's and early 2000's.
Fly in at 50,000 ft. Full speed level. When he fires, dive straight at him. Full afterburner. Fire 2 am120 missles and jinks hard when his missle is about 2 miles out. You need to close the distance as fast as possible. Straight on most missles can’t turn as quick as a fighter, especially at higher altitude, thinner air does not let the missle turn quickly. Try it !!
Pheonix Can pull 45 G's
"Pheonix Can pull 45 G's"
Yes, and ...??
I ain't gotta say shit, I'll just wait till you start crying once F-14 is out.
i think he means that a lower air density makes a phoenix less capable at higher altitudes if it isn't still burning propellant. Just because it CAN pull so many Gs doesn't mean it will when it only has kinetic energy to work with. I could be wrong. Also this f-14 announcement from heatblur really has my jimmies in bundle.
GZA036 he made that probably in call of duty
Excellent content 👏
Yeah good work.
how much fuel costs the maneuver?
no more than normal straight flight. U dont need to go fast or anything, just turn 90 degrees.
Excellent kill. Well done
Thank you very much. ur suggestion didnt work; actually, it was a quick death lol. too quick to even make a video about it. Thanks for the suggestion tho it was fun to try.
LOL, Oops Notching was definitely the right joice though, again, Well Done.
Notching is pretty efficient when it comes to Fox 1 type missiles but for Fox 3 capable missiles, it really depends on the engagement range...
Beyond 25NM, I guess trying to use the doppler weaknesses of those old generation radars is a good strategy since the missile only becomes active around 10NM...
Below 25NM, I still think you need to create distance with the threat... Thus dragging full burner can be really efficient as you maintain a high speed ratio...
Anyway, this would need to be adapted depending on the MAR of each threat you face.
I don't really trust DCS missile flight model so I try to use my BVR strategies on BMS mostly. But your video was interesting though.
Cheers
Learning the F-15c atm and was doing some reading about the aim-120, got curious about the aim-54 and was surprised to read that the aim-54 never scored any kills in the hands of US F-14 drivers and in fact they failed to hit all 3 of the only attempts ever shot in anger at opposing aircraft! That's a 100% fail rate from US F-14s LOL.
Well, I found notching a Phoenix is like a lottery: sometimes it succeeds, sometimes not. The funny thing is, for me notching worked better on Persian Gulf map than in Nevada. Stealth approach is also impossible, when my Hornet is 120 feet above ground, and Tomcat's altitude is 25000 feet, he still can track me, despite I seem to be below his radar's scanning cone, and default radar position at the beginning of the mission should be straight ahead with zero elevation. I don't think it's well modelled in DCS. What is more, an AIM-54 seems to not respect the rule: higher speed, bigger turn radius. I watched Phoenixes flying 3000 kph and turning like a ballet dancer.
On tacview, the target aspect is always shown below the green line, if you reverse the viewing order (from F14 to your F18) it would show that your aspect is 90L which is the perfect notching angle.
I've seen videos of guys who actually built themselves a simulator with all the goodies. But, people like me, just have a computer, monitor, and a flight sticks. And I'm curious about your setup, Growling Sidewinder? What HOTAS do you have?
dammit726 I have a thrustmaster 16000m and I'm just like u. I have a computer with a trackir5 and a joystick on a desk haha nothing crazy here man.
Interesting video mate.
Very good! Those missiles are a pain in the neck to avoid. But usually if you get a rwr of that missile, it is very close and goes pitbull. So you have the burner on and do a notch, cross fingers. But those can hit you at any angle
Nice lesson, thanks.
One thing I'm continually surprised by is how the tomcat doesn't try to pop you from the max range of the Phoenix. It's got 190km versus the 142km + closing velocity you start at. Not saying it would be any more (or less) effective, just interesting in how it holds the range. Maybe it just doesn't know how many tomcats you've killed in the past by wittling the range down ;) Either way, gj.
if I had to guess I think it comes down to how u set the AI of the f14, I find with AI set to high the f14 waits for closer ranges to fire, which would increase probability of kills. thats my guess. but ur right its a bit odd. I think they'll rework the AI for the actual official release of the tomcat in the near future.
lmao. ya from what I hear they were pretty under trained.
So basically, your check turn would show zero Doppler shift relative to the Tomcat's radar (assuming it's an AWG-9; I'm not sure if the APG-71 would've addressed this in the D model, or any software improvement to the Phoenix, for that matter) and it would break lock...Anyway, it was intended to kill Bears, Badgers and other similar Soviet bombers capable of carrying long range antiship missiles at a distance from a CVBG.
I was kind of suspecting this as well. The Phoenix isn't necessarily a fire and forget weapon, but it's acting like one here exclusively. Also suspect it holds the fire range due to the fact the weapon doesn't arc upward for efficiency.
another suggestion: stay high (at first), so the enemy may shoot the missile sooner; this will burn out the booster and if you then crank (not radar notching), it will run out of energy fast, trying to match your vector. Esp. if you couple the notching with decreasing altitude and reversing the crank to the other side, you'll be able to evade the missile too.
The problem with going low: you'll decrease your chance of shooting back, as he can and will fire several times before you can.
And he'll be closer and closer, meaning the missile will have more and more energy to get to you.
Being new to all of this, this may be a dumb question. Are you notching the missile or the aircraft that fired the missile? Or are you notching the missile and trying to keep his aircraft perpendicular to yours? Thank you...
Nice demo!
Just a thought. In the vid 2nd shot you had an opportunity to mask yourself behind a hill. Terrain masking is very effective if your already low. Notching and then climb then dive also caused the missile to use up extra energy. This bleeds energy and the missile can vet out of sink and lose lock as well.
ya terrain masking is always great, Id always rather use that, but I wanted to show how notching works in this video, also, in real life the phoenix comes down on ur head from very high altitude hiding behind a mountain might not help lol. (I think they will change the aim54 flight model to a more realistic version once the heatblur f14 offically comes out)
@@GrowlingSidewinder Yep understand. Missiles normally only turn active in the final phase if flight. If you mask early and the main aircraft radar loses lock you should have no further missile danger. Once missiles lose the target unlike the movies they do not reaquire a target. They go ballistic and then detonate. I had 20 years as a weapons tech. Im pretty sure im correct. Love the vids.keep at it. :)
Gunnie's Lets Fly VFR awesome dude. Ya that reminds me of the scene from behind enemy lines when those missiles were doing u turns and coming back after him lol. Thanks bro. Appreciate the comment and the knowledge bomb.
Yeah, the phoenix should behave similar to the 120 in that you wouldn't get that warning instantly on launch since the F-14 has TWS.
@@blkspade23 not true I think Stacey... The launch aircraft must lock the missile to the tgt as the data is normally transferred via cable to the missile from the aircraft as it launches. So you have to get a lock warning. You would be correct maybe on the tws not necessarily being detected by the tgt aircraft. :)
so is this a specific strategy dealing with the Aim-54 only? Or would this work against, say, an Aim-120C or something?
From my understanding, (in DCS) it should work against the 120. (ive seen some videos of people notching aim120s) notching any missile that uses a Doppler radar on-board guidance system should theoretically work. the only reason I did it for the aim54 was cuz I wanted to show how to defend against it without being forced into the weeds. With notching you can maintain some decent altitude and hit back more effectively.
Yes, this works against other AHM and SARH missiles in DCS.
You'll also notice, at least in multiplayer where people do it regularly, that when your target notches your aircraft radar then you will also lose lock and have to reacquire, yourself, whenever they turn back out of that notch on you.
Zir S Yes to some extent.
The notch (or beam) is a very basic defensive maneuver designed to defeat a pulsed doppler radar. In order to reduce clutter from ground returns and slow moving objects, doppler radars will reject returns below a set closure speed. This "notch" depends on the radar and can be adjusted on many radars. The quicker one turns into the notch the better chance the maneuver will work. Additionally, you need to "update" your heading to keep the threat radar on the 3/9 line or you're closure will eventually exceed the max notch velocity.
It can be used against any doppler radar. Including those on the aircraft themselves. It's an easy way to beat Fox-1's too.
Thanks for the class on knotching very usefull, I was wondering can knotching be used against the S-300 or S-400 TRIMPH since that's senerio is probably presenting itself?
Not recommended. Not only do they use multiple radars for search and track. They are multiple kinds of radars. Terrain masking, driving the missile into the ground, and running are your only options. Most SAM's can be defeated by beaming but not the S-300 or S-400. Not because you are notching them but because you are killing the missiles energy.
Dumb kinda question. Please go easy on me. The aim54 (to my knowledge) is a long range missile that rides a radar beam until it get close enough to us it's own internal radar set. This missile and it's range is fascinating. I'm sure it's a bombers worst nightermare.
Was this missile designed for that main purpose or was it also good at highly maneuverable fighter jet planes as well?
At it's longer ranges would it be able to maneuver and hit a fighter trying to avoid it or was it not nearly as effective?
The range of this thing is amazing compared to the amraam. I know both would never actually make it to their max ranges and be effective. At least with the amraam if you are say 10-15 miles away it's fairly easy to defeat. What was the pheonix like?
sonichuizcool well I can't speak for long range shots on agile fighters. As far as I know no such data exists maybe tests on drones or something however one thing the data does exist for its the Iranian use of the aim54 against Iraq from 1980-88 where Iranian tomcats scored 160 confirmed kills on Iraqi fighters. The interesting thing to note is that the Iranians claimed to have fired at very low ranges between 9-15 miles if I recall those numbers correctly. So although the missile wasn't designed to hit fighters it seemed very capable of doing so.
@@GrowlingSidewinder Wow, the Iranian factor. I didnt even think to look in that direction! I completely forgot about the persian-cats and that whole chunk of history with the shah. Thanks!!!
In your video you got launch warning right after the F-14 launched a missile. In reality you wouldn't know about the launch untill the missile guidance went active at around 11 miles from you (usually the F-14 would launch Phoenix in TWS mode which wouldn't trigger your RWR launch warning). That would give you roughly 11 seconds to react (mach 5 = 3600 mph which roughly equals to 1 mile per second) if you were beaming the missile, the time would be shorter if you would take the missile head-on. Initially you should notch the missile carrier (to prevent the potential launch), and after the missile goes active you should notch the missile. Current implementation in DCS is not correct at the moment - as you noted Phoenix has a parabolic flight path, with ceiling up to 100 000 ft. I'm curious to see the correct implementation of this beast of a missile. One thing to try out (when the HB F-14 comes out) is to down an anti-ship-missile with the Phoenix, which supposedly the missile is capable of.
I would expect that a good RWR (in real life) could tell the difference between RWS, TWS, lock, and STT modes based on the fraction of the time the emitting radar is painting you. The missile launch warning (again, in real life) uses BOTH information from the radar and from the datalink to the missile (it's encrypted but the RWR can still tell that the link has been established). Since the AIM-54 is a SARH missle in midcourse, I don't know how much datalink traffic there would be, but there would have to be enough radar energy being reflected from you by the shooter's radar for the AIM-54 to see the returns. Can that really be done in TWS mode? I would think a lock would be needed (not single target track but a normal lock which still allows seeing other targets on TWS)
I really enjoyed these kind of tutorial series. How about you show us some methods about using the Phoenix missile in TWS against multiple targets. There are different ways to do it, so I think this would give you enough content for your next video.
What game is this? or simulator??? this is dope!! how do I join?
Neil Anlin this is called DCS world. Go to DCS.com and download for free.
@@GrowlingSidewinder thats the wrong link lol. Its digitalcombatsimulator.com
In his book "Roger Ball", Capt John Munroe explained how, as an Aggressor pilot, by doing a vertical dive while his wingman stayed high for distraction, he could outwit the F-14's Doppler Radar and then hide in ground clutter and effectively fly underneath the F-14's and then hit them from behind. The question then really is how well is the F-14's Doppler Radar simulated? Would this approach work in DCS?
well this is simply a mod, the official f14 release is coming soon so then we'll see how they really modeled it. good idea for a video tho.
Energy for a missile is really rocket impulse and it is in seconds. Impulse is constant, and if thrust increased the time of flight is reduced. Roughly means the final velocity of the rocket once it exhausted its propellant if it were fired in outer space.
Do you know of any resources for information on missiles and how they work in detail? I've found it difficult to find any real information on anything specific, just the generalities.
i do not, everything I know I've learned from reading hundreds of small vague articles over the years. sorry man, i'm sure someone here can point u in the right direction. hopefully they see ur comment.
WorldOfHurt101 Check out "Air to Air missile types explained" and "What does fox-1, fox-2, and fox-3 mean?" on the Grim Reapers UA-cam channel.
You won't find much, even for a retired system such as the AIM-54...which is why I wouldn't put any weight on translating missile performance in DCS to the real world. It's all guesswork and handwavium. You can find loads on radar theory, what makes the real world radar sets special is the logic build in.
You're not going to find those details. Remember that the government's won't want that kind of information out for everyone to see.
You could also try a old soviet trick by launch chaff when you want to turn but they did it in big flights to confuse the radar
I’m new to this, so my question might sound dumb but what is the name of the flight simulator that you use. My father is a retired Air Force general and he is 84 years old now and I would love to show him this.
Probably a dumb question, but is it called "Notching" because of the notch-shaped flight path?
all the time enjoy your video ace that dam super hornet scary and hunt to many players at bedtime :)
giannisgt28rs thank you I appreciate that
The AIM-54 has at least two flight modes. "direct fire" where the Radar on the missile fires up almost as it leaves the rail, and it generally flies directly to the target and "loft" mode where the target is much further away and the missile climbs to get more range for a given level of propulsion. In "loft" mode there is mid-course correction and the radar does not switch on until the terminal phase is started. Using "loft" mode a QF102 drone (I think) was shot down in excess of 100nm from the launch aircraft. Theoretically AIM-54 was supposed to be replaced by the "more capable" (my ass) ALRAAM. The latest gen AMRAAM with the higher impulse rocket motors has increased the range to the point where ALRAAM would have been almost obsolete if it had been developed and Meteor has a longer range still (basically an AMRAAM with a British ramjet engine instead of rocket).
Also you make an escape in at other mode :
You need to pick down with angle -10 or 20 degrees , then on you need to go up on hi altitude , first rocket it's go in the ground , then on hi altitude you launch an amraam to the bandit also will lunch an aim-54 but aim 54 will be gone on parabolic trajectory but you make an escape 180 from bandit with down angle -80 degree the aim-54 will be lost target and go up to hi altitude , amraam in this moment its still go on bandit , what you gone do just go on his 6 an make an other launch that will exclude his maneuver on you ,
OK you are on his 6 you have total priority on situation .
Sorry for my English )))
If the F14 is aware of you notching and changes his direction accodingly, is this tactic still sufficient? Could you check that out what happens if the other pilot counters you notching him?
Hmm I dont have DCS yet but why to take so many Amraams and Sidewinders? Just put 2 Aim-9 on wingtips and 2 Aim-120 under fuselage and Hornet should have better speed/acceleration, in real life these double rails make a lot of drag.
also in dcs, a lot of drag :P
Only having 4 missiles might be fine in a testing scenario, but you will quickly lose all your teeth in multiplayer. The Mirage 2000 can make due with that loadout because it is what it's got, but the 530 is also deadly as sin.
Having more missiles than the enemy can be a quality of it's own. But it's all mission dependent.
"The Mirage 2000 can make due with that loadout because it is what it's got, but the 530 is also deadly as sin."
Unless someone notches you.
It is your imperative as a pilot to launch under circumstances so the enemy can't easily defeat your weapons.
DIVE after launch.
If the target is in front of clear sky, notching doesn't really work all that well.
Also, notching works against pretty much any radar guided weapon, the 530 is still one of the better SARH sticks.
You lucky sun of a gun on that second missile. Nice.
Fn Nice dude perfect knotch
The Roof Man L thanks brother.
How efective is that technique that you used in real fight?
that I can't answer. I'm not a real pilot mate, and I don't like to talk without knowing anything sorry.
Not an expert on radar, but wouldn't your initial descend be unnecessary since a Doppler radar is specifically designed to ignore static objects on the ground (which is why notching defeats it)?
What settings did you use for making the video, ie following the planes and quick zooms, etc.
Got a question for Fox 3's in general:
As you notch it, the missile doesn't know where you are, but does the mothership see you?
If so, should the data from the mothership guide the missile at least at a slight lead angle, which is definetily not as dangerous as pitbull pursuit, but still better than totally blind forward trajectory.
Hope I didn't formulated question badly
Ps. I got the same results online as GS here, but it always confused me why missile doesn't trail me if I still got a lock from bogey (Not that I'm complaining)
Nice job!!
Nice one!
dear Sidewinder
I am baffled with two things: As long as semi active radar missile like AIM54 doesn't go to active phase the pilot has no indicating that a missile has been launched and when it goes to active, then you have RWR warning, why in your case as soon as those f-14s launched at you , your RWR started warning you? second question: suppose F-14 was firing AIM-7 at you, does it mean the RWR never going to warn you since it is always stays semi active ??
You'll have to do another one when they fix the flight profile of the Phoenix!
A notching question : if your in the tomcat and you shot a 54 then turn to the edge of you gimble then shoot another one they will be comming at you from diffrent angles. Can you still notch the 2nd one too?
Growling Sidewinder Latest AIM-54C ECCM Sealed software upgrades were for Phoenix missile look down shoot down of cruise missiles low over the water. I believe water gives more clutter than land. Fleet firing results are still classified.
I also doubt the cruise missile was intentionally notching the radar.
Er, question : your discord is only for DCS ?
serageo or like minded people man. But most people in there also play DCS
@@GrowlingSidewinder , then I'll join so I can learn more tactics from experts.btw, I use
flightgear
@ 2:27. "...gonna make it easier to notch"!? Why would the notch be more effective by going straight at the target (very little or no lateral velocity)? Wasn't notching all about making a doppler radar confuse a target with the ground? As far as DCS's manual tell, that only happens if the radar closes in on a target which has the same closure speed as the ground (when the target flies in a constant 90 degrees direction to the left or right of the radar that is closing in) or has almost zero closure speed (the target runs away straight from the radar at the same speed of the radar) which is known as the 2nd notch.
Going head to head on a target which uses pulse radar helps that radar never experience a notch. It receives the best signal that way, so it's the other way around of what you tell. Only when going sideways and lower (which makes the radar see you below the horizon) or when going away from the targeting radar at the same speed at which it closes makes it lose track.
He actually fired a sidewinder as well at the very last seconds.
Is the f18 radar set at nautical miles?
The question is what happens if he fires again as your turning in? This only worked because the cat didn't shoot when you commited. You could turn back and hope to notch, but then you're getting into heater range, still defensive.
too close for phoenix. as I break and come at him he can't fire aim54, the range it too small, thats why he uses sidewinders.
@@GrowlingSidewinder if it's close enough for a slammer it's close enough for a phoenix
ya ur not wrong, I don't know I just think first instinct is to go to winders when its that close. BUT, and i'm sure about this, the aim54 comes off the rails and gets to mach 4 very fast, at those speeds that close maybe its not maneuverable ? I honestly don't know. I know the Iranians claimed to always fire them at 12-9 miles and never any closer than that why? I don't know.
wait a minute, you get the missile warning the moment he launched it? The whole problem with the 54 is that I usually get the warning 3 secs before I die, cause of TWS mode.
Ya he fired in STT which is actually how they should be launched against a fighter size target
@@GrowlingSidewinder ok, yes, but that doesn't solve my problem of me getting killed every game by a phonex that beeps 3 seconds before impact, it's so unfair, that weapon should totally be banned in every multiplayer game, unless used in STT
Lol I don’t know about that man people dodge aim54s all the time, if ur waiting for the RWR to start evasive and defensive manoeuvres you’re basically ensuring you get killed. Once you see f-14 on RWR you need to start flying elusively against him even better if you can get him on radar so you can see his actual range at 40miles out you need to ASSUME a missile has been fired in TWS and try to defeat it long before it goes pit bull on you. As for the topic of how to fly defensively against a tomcat that’s a more complex topic but it involves changes in aspect and altitude and notching forcing him to drop locks on you makes his life much harder.
@@GrowlingSidewinder all right, so how do you think i can tell which is a F14 in Su-27, let's say for example on your server?
You have to look at your RWR
Yes it is BAMMMMM - Big Kill ! Excellent approach to F-14 (try 2 F-14 vs 1 F-18)………………….Thanks 4 vg video.
wesley ur comments are always some of my favs buddy
Ty vm.
I'm curious to see in DCS the F14 working with the F15 and F18, where the Phoenix will put the adversaries on the defensive before they have the chance to make a good first shot, then an Eagle or an Hornet can advace for the kill with AIM-120s at shorter range where they are more efective.... this is my personal opinion.
I believe on server where a team of well coordinated pilots using one Tomcat and few other figters can create kaos in the oposite side! Will see in few months....
Maybe I am a noob around here and the question is stupid ;) but what happens when the F-14 shoots 2 Phoenix with a short interval after each other (I know AI doesn't). They would have a bit different bearing relative to each other and so different angles to you. Could there be a problem when you notch the first missile and maybe not be able to notch the second one cause you don't have it on the 90 degree line? Or does it not need to be exactly 90 degrees?
Can you explain to me how the radar works? And how you could tell where the missile was coming from?
**(I ONLY WATCH GAMEPLAY & AND IM INTERESTED IN IT)**
TheGreatTyler Radar works by projecting energy out away from aircraft. As these waves of invisible energy collide with solid objects such as another aircraft, they bounce off and back to the original aircraft.
The computer system in the aircraft measures the minute differences between the projection of the waves and the return of the waves that bounce off the enemy aircraft.
This is similar to echolocation in bats. Putting out a sound wave, listening for those waves to bounce off an object, and then using that data to figure out exactly where that target object is in space. Sonar, HFDF and laser range finding are all very similar in concept.
The player in this video knows where the missile is coming from because he has an RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) on his plane. This detects radar produced by other sources. So the opponents radar in this mission hits the players plane. The RWR computer analyzed the data, and estimates distance and direction of the opponent based on the radar energy he produces. This is basically just the opposite of what I explained above.
These computers systems are so advanced that they can actually detect exactly what aircraft is hitting it with radar. In this it says “U” for unknown but if it was a MiG 29 the RWR would show a diamond with “29” on it in the RWR screen. It can actually detect the differences in each type of planes radar signals. Giving the pilot vital info. A MiG 21 locking you with radar is much different than a MiG 25 locking you with radar. And requires a much difference response from you.
Also, the missiles fired by the opponent have their own radar on them. Which the player can detect using his RWR as well. When a missile is fired the radar system sends out a different and more powerful signal in order to ensure a hit from the missile.
Generally, playing this game will go something like this:
You’re flying along and you hear your RWR kick on. It uses a “blip” tone to tell you that another aircraft is using its radar in your general area. Also tells you what kind of aircraft it is.
Then, the enemy aircraft locks you with his radar. The computer then gives you a much more distressing alarm tone to tell you that the situation is now dangerous as that aircraft has locked you. It also shows you which aircraft locked you on the RWR.
Then the enemy launches a radar guided missiles. This will send your RWR into a fit of loud beeps as a desperate alarm to alert you that you need to react to this imminent threat.
Plenty of UA-cam videos and articles written on this. Try Wikipedia for a good general overview.
Daelkyr thank you very much very straight to the point and detailed 🙏🏾
Sorry for my question, but is this a game, a professional simulator ou what?
this is called digital combat simulator, free download, and free su25.
I wonder if the F14 fires 2 phoenix at 10-15 sec interval, the fact that the 2 missiles have different angles of starting (tracking?) should make it hard/impossible to notch both
Why give up your altitude and potential energy before he even fires a shot?
to mask myself into the terrain below the radar. to make its job even harder, picking me out of terrain and therefore it doesn't have the luxury of picking me out of a clear blue sky.
I don't get this... The Phoenix missile used a pulsed-doppler Radar, which meant that even at zero relative speed, it would find you and blow you out of the sky. I tuned in to see the notching fail against the Phoenix, but then saw that it was just a game.
I think you misunderstand. Pulse Doppler radars reject things at zero relative speed to the radar since there is no Doppler shift unless the object is moving closer to or away from the emitter. It's how they have look down shoot down capability by being able to pick moving objects out of the ground returns. The point of notching is to trick the radar into thinking you are just a ground return.
A Doppler return only measures frequency shifts. The "pulse" part of the radar measures the distance to the object. The Phoenix missile can switch to pure pulse mode if the Doppler shift drops below a certain threshold. In the final run to the target, it could also switch to continuous mode. It was specifically designed to be immune to this sort of "zero" frequency shift defense and still destroy the targeted craft. It did have many successful tests against this kind of defense. The US had NO A2A kills with the missile, however, in any mode. The missile could be defeated by violent maneauvers at the last second, but since its exciter was silent during most of the flight and only switching on for the last couple of seconds, it made detection by the attacked a/c difficult.
@Steve K A Doppler return is the shift of the pulses. A Doppler radar uses a series of of pulses to determine the shift made to them by a moving object. These also determine distance. What the pilot can do is change something called the Pulse Repetition Frequency which which changes the number of pulses per second between a high, medium, and low setting and in some cases an interleaved setting that automatically switches between them on each bar scan. The pulse repetition frequency will do a few things such as determine the amount of Doppler filter and determine the max detection range of the radar. The higher the PRF the greater the detection range and the better the Doppler filter. This is why the AIM-54 is guided by the F-14's on board high PRF radar for most of it's flight since the AIM-54 has a medium PRF pulse Doppler radar in the seeker head which reduced the missiles acquisition range but medium PRF is better for terminal guidance and is more difficult to defeat with countermeasures and notching. Not that it can't be notched it's just more difficult to than a high PRF radar.
@Steve K Also, no it didn't have a specific design to be immune to "zero" frequency shift defense. If it were it would be even more susceptible to traditional countermeasures like chaff. Literally one bundle of chaff would defeat it. A single pulse system like you describe does not have the resolution or capability of guiding a high speed object into another high speed object. Like I said in my other comment. It uses a medium PRF pulse Doppler radar for terminal guidance which is less susceptible to a zero frequency shift defense, but till possible to do it to. Your margin of error is smaller on the notch. Instead of having a relative speed to the emitter of 60mph or lower to get filtered out by high PRF your relative speed would need to be 30mph or lower to get filtered out by medium PRF as an example.
Higher PRF does not equal higher detection range, or at least unambiguous detection range. High(er) PRFs allow for smaller range bins, but range ambiguity increases.
what does he mean by constantly trying to correct the notch to 9'oclock? is that referring to the line on his Left DDI panel ? ( EW )
the EW screen is just a visual aid. I'm referring to keeping a 3/9 line to the f14. or a 90 degree angle to the f14. I know I've successfully "notched" him because the lock tone drops. so I know hes lost lock. he continues to turn which messes up my 90 degree notch so I have to continue to correct it, until the lock tone drops. and continue to do that until hes close enough for me to break off and go after him.
How does a phoenix do against something like the F22? Ever try it?
Quick clarification, you're not notching the missile, youre notching the guiding radar of the F14. At least for the first phoenix fired in the video. I believe that the missile only goes pitbull at 8 miles or so. It's at that point that you would have to notch the missile if it picks you up at all.
u are correct.