Do you know these 35 tips for alpine trad?
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
- I was climbing South Early Winter Spire/South Arête and wanted to share helpful tips for going up easy terrain in an alpine trad environment.
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This might be the most wholesome hownot2 video ever
I remember down climbing the knife edge section and all my friends were doing it unprotected. I didn’t feel good about it so I made them set up an anchor for me. I feel validated seeing you all roped up in that section.
Well I do now
Awesome video, as always! I'd add stacked rappels to the tip list:
1. You get to do a partner check
2. Second partner can get started as soon as you get some slack in the system
3. I barely adds any time setting up the rappel
I knew you were fully committed when I saw the Mythos
I think I still want to bring 2 60m ropes. 1) that dynema management looks awful.
2) I feel safer. Alpine environments bring sharp edges with them. In case of a cut, it's better to have 2 ropes
I mean safety is definitely individual. If you feel you need it bring it! I personally love the pur line for rappel.
Beal Backup 60m weights 1,260g and coils up to roughly the size of a nalgene, and is fully rated to rap on. It's skinny 5mm, but the sheath is an aramid blend so it has some abrasion resistance and the tight weave makes it stiffer and less likely to tangle compared to a pure dyneema line. Hyperstatic though--so no leading.
@@slowgold20yeah, that or Petzl RAD line or that Edelrid RAP cord.
More expensive, though. Waving
@@macmurfy2jka agreed, so expensive. I got a length on discount a while ago. Also requires dedicated technique, as the thin line needs a lot more friction to control your rappel.
Also if you get the rope or the paracord that he is using stuck then you might be left with having to climb back up to free it on your little tag line or para chord. That is not all that uncommon of a scenario. That paracord looks like you could get it stuck pretty easily. So maybe whether to use a tag line or extra rope might depend on the likelihood of getting a rope stuck based on the character of the rock and how difficult the climbing is if adding a few pounds would matter.
Your sense of humor is choice and appreciated!
I know, it's dead, but it's got some moss on it.. Thanks for the laughs with my morning coffee, much appreciated!
I am impressed by how much complexity you managed to add to that climb, which with good technique can be fairly simple.
Came to comment this
Can you elaborate?
I like your setup on this terrain, but I'm always tempted to bring twins of smaller diameter instead of a main + tag. Thoughts on that? I like having a second rope in case one gets stuck, cut, de-sheathed, or whatever nature feels like throwing at us that day. Having only a single rope 5+ pitches up in the middle of nowhere always feels a little sketchy to me. The main risk seems like getting it stuck after pulling while rapping, but anything can happen and I generally like backups when I don't expect to see another party for days. Am I overly paranoid? I know you are a little too haha, so I'm curious what you think about that. Feel free to link a video if you've already talked about it 🙂
Agreed.
I think for alpine climbing double ropes are the way to go. They are the norm in the Alps (where I climb). And an official recimendation by all Alpine organisations in the Alps. They protect better against getting cut on edges and against getting cut by rockfall. You can use double-rope technique to mitigate ropedrag and as you say) you have backup (even if the are not triple rated its better to have a rope than none).
Great vid. A lot of the tips are more geared for people who already have familiarity with the basic systems and want to tweak things up, but I feel like it's also a really great general orientation for people just getting into alpine outings. Just the general flow of things and how the return can be just as or more complicated (esp in terms of rope management). Like how you spend just as much time about the descent as the ascent.
Before I talk about that microtrax technique, know that you’re literally in my opinion a hero in the climbing community. I like that you challenge ideas. Until there is more evidence of the exact failures of belaying from above with a microtrax, I can’t endorse this as a good idea… thank you still for all you’re doing!
Seems like a pain to lower if you need to in a pinch
@@johnrader6230 Could you add a carabiner above the microtraxion and do a HMS belay of that? Provided you could pull it up enough to disengage the teeth under load.
@@n7jenast Probably? but then you're using the friction of a carabiner, or a munter on the biner I guess, to lower and then re-engaging the trax teeth with one hand when your climber starts climbing. ATC or grigri seems like the better tool
Alpine tip: climb with 2 ropes. Less rope drag, and more safety in case a rope gets damaged by sharp or falling rock.
In germany we say „partner check sonst partner weg“. Make sure that your buddy is correctly tied in/that the belay is set up correctly etc otherwise you might never see them again
Always look at the length and the number of the rappels.
If all rappels are less than 15m or only some with up to 25m, I would take a 30m single and a light tagline.
If all are less than 30m or only some up to 55m, I bring one 60m half rope and a tagline. When climbing you double it.
I would only take two 60m half ropes if there are many long rappels, which is quite uncommon.
Hi Johnny, you seem pretty sharp. I am serious. Biggest mistake today's climbers make is taking TOO MUCH SHIT, starting with too long ropes. The vast majority of climbers would be more efficient ("faster") and have more fun doing the SHORTEST practical pitches. Elite and near elite performers can get more by bringing/using more. Good luck on your adventures!
@@EricCraig-km4sbwell I think one reason for bringing too long of a rope is simply that that’s what you own. Ropes shorter than 60m are pretty specialized, most people just own a rope (or 2 ), and it’s going to be 60 m or 70 m.
@@tjb8841 all depends on what you know. Or don't know.
What a fuggin good episode. Just before I get into single strand alpine climbing.
Good weather greetings from the Dolomites ❤
For #29 that's where an Edelrid aramid sling is worth its weight in gold. You don't have to GaS, you just keep climbing.
I try to carry at least 1-2 slings that are basically anything other than 8mm dyneema, be it nylon, aramid or a sheathed sling.
(I usually use them for extending my rappel so i always use them anyway).
That was the best , brought back so many great memories of real climbing , thanks
Love the format, including lists and the outdoors. 16:26 As an educator, id avoid the leg loop 3rd hand or else explain why you shouldn't generally do that. You might understand and accept the risk in this scenario but a novice viewer might not and the mistake could be lethal for them. It's easy enough to just extend that shoulder sling a bit and do it proper.
Two traxions in a row would be an interesting break test. I assume the one closest to the load would do the desheathing, then the next would have a sheath that could slide on the core, but would it eventually grab the core again? Or just slide until it got to whatever back up or stopper you have? or would the first traxion desheath and then break the core also?
They may have done a break test of that config in the top rope soloing video.
didn't know the double wrap on a pulley trick, cheers!
Unless something changed recently, there are bolted rap stations every 30M for the steeper section of the descent up there. From the first bolted station on the way down, a single 60 should get you down fine.
I've done this descent twice, once in 2019 and once a few months ago. It was doable with a single 60, never heard anyone recommend anything else... He probably read a guide book from the 90s for beta lol.
I was actually wondering about this because he had quite a bit of rope still on the ground when he got the the other end back from that tiny line. Which to me is tip #36 : Even if you need a tagline on some of the pitches or brought twins/halfs, rap the ones you can reach from the middle of the rope so you don't have to pull 60m of rope through the rings and repack your pull cord unnecessarily.
@@christophercraig3907 I descended this a month ago with one 50m.
It looks like he might have descended a different way, I don't recognize that steep wall above one of the bolted stations. I'm pretty sure the standard descent is basically simul downclimb to the top of the vertical step in the gully and then it's like 2 or 3 raps from there to the ground with a single 60 or 70m rope.
@@Govanification some anchors got moved after some rockfall, so the newer rap line is a bit skier's left of the older way. It still goes with a 60 though!
Thinking about belaying a second on toothed devices… Looks neat, but must be hard to lower the second, for whatever reason (say injury). I guess on less than vertical terrain getting the load off is easy. On steep terrain it would require first building a 3:1 or something. So yeah, in the right context it might be useful, but with caveats.
Nice! This is what i needed today
I love this channel! I would really like to see a comparison between two knots: Double figure 8 and a portuguese bowline with a yosemite finish. Can you please do that?
The waxy or PU or w/e coating on dyneema can sometimes gunk up pulley wheels and carabiners. With some dyneema it wont be an issue, others, it will give you a terrible time and you may not ever want to use it as a pull cord again.
0:37 kong slyde min diameter is 9mm, below, strand can easily uncross under bodyweight, with a bit of help off the rock/elements toward it: after that you really understand the name of it (and the need of a really well tied stopper knot...)
Nice! Lol I needed this video 24 hours ago just did an alpine trad route and apparently could’ve been way more efficient 😂 Great tips!
I love how you "mounted" the "camera" at 7:55. What are you using for that tagline? That looks 4-5mm but I don't see anything that small in Dyneema in your shop.
That was a cool video.. Made my brain move..
Un-Leading is the super bestest part of any climb!
This is gold.
Thank you so much.
Was just there last month! Mountain goats followed us on the descent looking for "salt" (our piss)
V0 in my gym, but still an excellent video.
Some nice tips in there thanks man . Have a reason now to make my rack even heavier 😂. . On a serious note some food for thought in that video ✍️
helllo i want to buy the type of dyneema that u used in this video but i can t finde it online could u help me a little
I have another reply asking that. I think it's either 5/32 or 3/16 amsteel blue.
That pull cord reminds me of Hithlain ( Elven rope) needed to descend a cliff in the Emyn Muil.
Thanks HowNOT2, helps a lot!
Thanks for the tips in the video. Keep going on.
Why not use thin double ropes and an atc? Much smoother if you ask me 😁 atc is self blocking in guide mode
As he mentions, guide mode adds a lot of effort for the belayer.
@@tjb8841 yes he answered that right after i asked
12:46 make a backup using a cordino (machard knot for example). In case you need to work something in the middle of your rappel you will be safe. I learnt that the hard way.
That’s certainly more secure, but it’s also less efficient. Wrapping a leg is an effective lock off in a pinch. Ryan did one pitch one way and one pitch the other.
This looks like so much fun
Ditch the personal tethers... you have plenty of slings. Could probably ditch half of that rack too with the bolted anchors. The single rope pull cord system is great if you want to waste a bunch of time dealing with a fiddly cord and get you ropes stuck. Bring a 7mm tag line and rappel like normal. Unless your trying to free climb 5.13 the extra pound wont matter. Progress captures aren't belay devices. Unless you're climbing with Honnold you can probably keep up using a normal ATC guide. Ditch the alpine guide device. And lastly... don't wear you sun hoody under your helmet if you wish to be taken seriously!
You just said everything I was thinking…. Except the sun hoodie part. Too far bro… too far
@@matthewcullen4536 😆
really enjoyed this, would love to see more in this style
This was great. Thanks!
Rather than 2 progress capture pulleys, why not just 1 gri gri?
I don’t get why that’s more efficient
The efficiency comes from a micro traxion being a 91% efficient pulley. Grigris have a lot of friction. In other words, the goal is to not tire out over a long day.
FWIW, an ATC in guide mode is even faster to rig. It just needs to be removed from the anchor and clipped to your harness and your second is now already on belay for leading the next pitch. (He mentioned this later, don’t think it got a numbered tip.)
You guys need a local pickup option on the store so we don't have to pay shipping if we live in Seattle 😁
What's the diameter of the dyneema you're using for a pull cord?
11:13 I’ve never used a knot block in canyon. When I use a biner block, I use a clove hitch. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this approach?
I've always used the alpine butterfly when blocking off for a single rope rap, but I like how you passed the locker through the figure 8 to prevent it jamming. Have any pros/cons for both methods?
So I brought my Rockie talkies to mt. Whitney but forgot to charge them. My partner’s was around 30% and mine was 12% with a flashing battery light. He could talk to me but I couldn’t talk to him. I feel like it should stop working when the battery dies, not at 12%. Was I missing something? Luckily it wasn’t windy and I could yell to my partner. Also, I love my rockie talkies and the batteries seem to last very long which is why I wasn’t worried about a low battery. Just something to think about. Great video from a fellow Ryan 🤙
What width is the dyneema tag line you used?
Can you add a link to where to buy the tag line you're using? Thanks!
Nice video! I've seen carabiner knot blocks done with a fig 8 OR a clove on the spine of a locker. I've heard the argument that a figure 8 makes the whole rig bulkier and leaves a greater risk for the knot getting stuck. Do you have any counter argument or general reasoning to prefer the fig 8 method? Instinctively I feel like the fig 8 would be much more failproof because I could imagine if a clove came loose, i guess there might be a possibility that one side of it could make its way around the carabiner, but that seems like such an unlikely edge case, particularly while the clove/carabiner are loaded... anyway, thought you might have an opinion you'd be willing to share :)
What about Beal Escaper instead of this idea with the thin rope to pull the main rope down?
Any updates on the Edelrid Pinch video? Have you received one for testing yet?
Thanks bro!
Why use pullys just take an atc in guide mode was is made for?
Less friction
Yeah it'd be so much more faff to lower someone a little bit if needed with this when loaded than on a ATC in guide
@@ABCLockwood hes not doing it in hard terrain. this is a speed system, which he doubled up. effectively making it the same hassle as an atc. i drag up my follower on easy terrain on a single one. because i dont need to stack rope before clipping it in the atc or the worse alternative pull all the rope trough an atc. wouldnt use it on parts where im unsure if my follower is able to do it. also its a great backup system if ya drop your atc or forgot to take it (yes the latter has happend to me and i relized after topping out the first pitch).
Many guides use plackets like the Kong GiGi for this. It’s supposed to have pretty low friction.
I have used an ATC in guide mode with a 9.1 Beal Joker and bringing up a second goes pretty easy. For thicker ropes a Gri Gri or Trango Virgo or similar is quite a bit easier than an atc IMHO if you have a fast moving climber. Not sure why you would want the micro traxion set up if you are also taking a gri gri?
I'm only 4 minutes in, but I do everything different: alpine draws instead of shoulder slings, hat instead of sunglasses, no pulleys - munter with the collar down is smooth, single rack of cams plus tricams, neck drape instead of hoodie, and I'd rather have two climbing ropes if I had to do a full rappel - which I never do.
Clove Hitch instead of tether
I don't extend rappel, I tie a helical knot on the rope through my tie-in points with a flat overhand. The rappel carabiner plus belay loop is enough extension that the helical knot doesn't contact the rappel device.
I really think the tag line is a bad general practice. If it gets stuck, which it's prone to do, then you're screwed. Whereas with a second rope you could be belayed with the free end as you ascend. Moreover, it's very unlikely for actual climbing ropes to get stuck when you do a regular double stranded retrievable rappel - no knot block
They guy sells gear for a living, so obviously he is trying to show as much gear as possible. Your "less stuff" approach is bad for business....
What diameter is the dyneema cord?
Any concerns about damaging rope/sheath when belaying with the rope around the rock??
Yes and no. Rope runs over rock all the time and you're not going to belay off a sharp rock, so generally no. If somebody is projecting something and it's going to be weighted and unweighted a bunch of times in the same part of the rock then yes because it's going to abrade the sheath, but of course if you expect somebody to fall even once this probably isn't the right choice.
Nice! I wonder if I can use KESTREL PRO DRY 8,5MM half dynamic rope as a single? Is impact force 6.4kn good enough?
For belaying while climbing allways use a fully dynamic rope that is rated for climbing.
I'm interested in the method of belaying the second with the pulleys you use (minute 3:00): is it safe (max force supported by the pulleys I read is 4kN)? Why do you use 2? If one gets stuck, does it then unlock easily? And the other (the Petzl) never intervenes?
For the descent, wasn't it easier (sure) to bring two twin ropes or even two triple-certified ropes like Beal's Opera (yes, of course, maybe it weighs a little more, but...)? Thanks for your answers and advices!! ciao
He's on something a super shallow slab, he's not letting slack get into the rope, and there's no force multiplication because there's only force on one side of the rope, so there's no way he's going to get 4kN on the rope. I honestly doubt his partner tripping could get it to bodyweight. Also, both of those pulleys also have supported configurations for protecting the leader against the second falling in simulclimbing, which is more risky than what he's doing. He's using two for the same reason top rope soloists use two devices, in case of a device failure. As to bringing twins: I agree. He's doing it for weight (and it's something like 3lbs, so it's a pretty substantial weight change), but twins solve a lot more problems than that tiny pull cord.
You should do a video on the “leader clips anchor for first piece” I’ve heard some conflicting information on that. I wanna say it was Conrad Anker or someone like that who wrote a blog post about it saying not to?
It's pretty standard use for most climbers now. Most just clip to a single bolt. I think Conrad is in way for extreme use cases.
Not sure what Anker said. But if there's more play in the anchor than in the runner clipped to the anchor, the belayer can be jammed upward into that drawer during a fall and with a hanging climber. Hand injuries have occurred is what I've been told.This can be avoided by extending the first runner. But most use a quickdraw here figuring they should save their longer slings for the route itself. I sometimes remove the anchor drawer once the first couple of pieces are in. But this is one of those hypothetical things that's super rare.
Actually, it was Will Gadd. I have an upcoming article on this very important and controversial topic on my website, stay tuned.
What backpack do you use?
Very elaborate on some multipitch techniques and some great insights
While you commented 'climber off belay', your self-belay carabiner is OPEN at ua-cam.com/video/HjPEr3kw1Yw/v-deo.html
Note to only take self-belay out after the 'on belay' command to follow
What kind of shirts are you guys wearing?
Would a Kong GiGi be a good option for belaying? Low friction guide mode belaying (assisted breaking) without teeth.
from my experience Kong GiGi is great when running two ropes in the case of party of 3 or guiding situations. When using half ropes as well. smooth belay in guide mode when used with a carabiner with round stock. Similar action and assisted breaking as any other tubular device. Great device and it's well within the recommended use! Just my two sense but great option for belaying from above! kinda little more tricky/thoughtful when you need to lower but totally doable.
yeah the gigi has been a staple alpine climbing kit for decades in the alps... lower friction belaying and rappeling compared to an atc/tube device
What’s the gps you use? Is that the garmin rhino?
What day were you up there? I might ahve saw you!
"You know, it's dead but it's got some moss on it."
Did you cut those fingers off the glove?
yes!
Alpine style; fast ✅ light ✅ and needlessly dangerous ❓
Y use 2 pice when 1 piece do trick
To repeat:
Test your rappel rig before unclipping from the anchor!
Why don't you have an splice Loop on the end of the dynema rope? ITS esayer Dan knots
5:53 #19 That does not make any sense.
You can hip belay on easy terrain, sure, but why then not hip belaying, but rock belaying?
You just wear out your rope for no good reason.
When the rope isn't weighted it doesn't wear out the rope "much" . Obviously lowering someone from this stance wouldnt be great. It's just more ergonomic than hip belaying
@@coreynweiss I just like not to wear out my rope for no good reason and imo that's a better hint than one in video.
When I would hip belay I would just sit behind rock to act as a nut and then put the rope across my back. Not sure why would that be less ergonomic?
Looks like Washington Pass, what route is it?
South Arete (5.5) of SEWS. It's also the descent for all the harder routes
@@CheapFlashyLoris Thanks. I've descended it after climbing the SW Rib but didn't recognize the valley behind without snow.
The butterflys 😂
Clipping directly into the chain link doesn't seem to be a good advice. Maybe in your case there was _just_ enough space, but carabineer can potentially break if its not positioned well and belayer is suddenly pulled by the falling leader.
🤣 Ive climbed an offwidth with my puffy before. It got shredded 😆
People often make the mistake of not putting pro in easy ground.
tip 36. pee on sunny rocks rather than dirt so it dries before the mountain goats try to eat it.
Wow, that’s more than “super good enough” amount of gear.
Wait, gloves for $5? No way 😲
Tip #36 for WA Pass: Don't pee near the base or the goats will take over
Alpine tip: keep your slings on your harness, not on your shoulder. Easier to climb that way.
🐐🐐
Alpine trad Scrambling
All too complicated and far too much gear carried. As a IFMGA guide of near 50 years of experience I have much simpler systems using far less gear and yet remaining safe. Your reliance on cams is far more than mine. Where possible I use solid nuts in preference to cams. They are definitely more reliable in many placements.
Ok boomer
Alpine ? Naturally I assumed you would be battling with frostbite and avalanches.......
Neat
That doesn't look like 5.6. Also Mythos for the win.
South Ridge (5.5), but not that much of it is really 5th class. This is the decent route for the other climbs on SEWS, though people go up it for training or as a winter route
"there is a lot of friction in this system" hahahahahaha
A Beal Joker is So overkill these days. What a lot of extra weight to carry. And you wrack facing out. Ugh. Regarding belay systems in alpine terrain one can't know truly if the rope is actually tight or if there is slack that can't be seen or felt. Desheathig the rope is a definite possibility.
A 9.1mm single is overkill? That is not a heavy rope. The Beal Opera 8.5 doesn't weigh significantly less. I own an Opera and a guy I climb with has some Jokers - not a big difference.
alpine trad is redundant
Doesn't bring half ropes to save weight but brings a GriGri and two progress capture devices 😅
That's what I use. Love the pulley for easy 3:1 or just to bring the extra slack up.
massive weight diffrence from another 60m to two 60g devices and a grigri.
I am a big fan of your channel, but @1:49 I think I will need some more explanations about this knot.....first piece, small pro, girth-hitch, no belayer......I am pretty sure ur kidding.....pleeeeease let me now you are....... (ah, and ^nose-in-a-day-rack^....that big.....I don´t know.......
Guide mode: exists
This guy: nah I’ll use toothed pulleys for the lulz
pro tip if ya dont trust the anchor, dont clip in your pas, so incase it gets ripped out your still there.
Rip the second geez.
Nope, I learn when I get home from work. I don’t think my boss will like me taking a big break.