Was he a climber, surely should have known better, especially with a camera on him. However that's just our 'ethics' and who are we to say what happens to a rock?
Chipping holds was very common in the UK back in my day, 30 years ago. Many popular boulder problems had their holes enlarged by frustrated noobs. Dunno what it like now.
@@nilsp9426 i mean in the contexts he's talking about (chossy, super soft limestone that absolutely cannot be developed without breaking stuff off anyway)....erm yeah. but if we're talking about my beloved NRG bullet nuttal sandstone, defo no (i've long felt a sadness about the degree of unnecessary, and frankly shoddy, reinforcement there over the years from bygone eras. clip some chains, look down and see a sea of sika behind the holds and you want to cry. but as Adam points out, most of the world's hardest routes are on the softer limestones that just ain't ready for showtime without "work". in many of those cases, simply cannot put up any routes without the hammer, prybar, and glue. adopt an absolute "no reinforcement/no hammer etc." policy and you lose entire excellent crags. adopt a "chip and glue everything policy" and the same applies (in that an otherwise excellent crag gets unnecessarily manufactured down into submission). it's contextual, which is going to lead to the gray stuff, mistakes made, people crossing the line that wasn't clear in the first place etc. not a perfect system but it's what we got, especially at the upper end of the scale.
I would mostly agree, but what if it's a really nice 10 meter 6c followed by one 7C boulder move and then 10 meters of nice 6c again? The line sucks for 6c climbers because they can't go past the hard move, but it also sucks for 8a climbers because it's not even warmup for them up to the one move crux and then it's too easy again. So it's not a line that interests anyone. It's also not earth shattering grade like a 9c with a stopper crux that makes it 9c+ and you're potentially robbing future generations, it's just 6c with one too hard move. I would say it's gray area at least, but for me personally that's a green area.
I bet 99% of people totally rejecting reinforced and chipped holds never held a drill in their hands. I've met bolters that fucking built some crags out of chossy rock and countless hours of work. Serving hundreds of climbing in the area FOR FUCKING FREE. And they don't even get the gratitude from users. They only get the comments like 'yeah fun climb if only there wasn't so much glue on the wall'.
Great discussion. I am fairly new and only climb in my local area (limestone) so I didn’t know this was common. I agree that reinforcing or re-adhering holds seems legit.
Sleeping Lion is famous for it. When Alex Megos was working on the second ascent of this new Chris Sharma line, one of the crux holds (I think) broke off. Chris was able to glue the hole back exactly as it had been before, maintaining the route integrity same as the first ascent. I'm not sure why people would debate this. Reglueing a hold that had broken off is only maintaining the route that the bolter had seen greatness in.
How does this sika stuff work? Do you break a hold off and glue it back on? Or do you reinforce holds with the glue prior to them falling off etc? Just interested
Both. On thin flakes it is often used behind the flake preemptively. And on harder or more well known routes, if an important hold breaks it is sometimes glued back on. In Europe they say sika but in the US we say epoxy. In my opinion those uses are ethical, but sometimes it is also used to glue holds on which were never on the wall, which obviously is unethical.
@@krakenattackin7617 Little addendum: We don't really say Sika in Europe. Adam is using a brand name here that I(as a German) have never thought of using like that before.
@HighGravityDay on use of the word...well it depends. For eastern Europe we might use it as he is in the video. In bulgaria it's a well known brand. I guess only recently bolted routes are done with the Hilti glue. Generally we call it glue without determining if its epoxy or other composition.
Think this always comes to the intent and consideration. If preparing a route, you should be hammering and prying and brushing to improve safety, as well as reinforcing and gluing for the same purpose. Holds which will come off if someone pulls hard should be removed, holds which will come off if enough someones pull hard should be kept. Then, we get into the conversation about consistency and quality, but we also get into the conversation about should all rocks be climbed? Again, intent and consideration, cause if you have a wall with a dozen lines, and one route never went as the crux is far above the difficulty of the rest of the wall... maybe... but if the wall has nothing without manufacturing cause of blank faces then probably leave.
For a route, I can understand the argument for manipulating the rock in certain instances. For bouldering, there’s no reason or excuse in my opinion. If you can’t climb it how it is, go find another boulder.
My friend just broke off a large hold on Bella Luna recently. The boulder is of historical significance with many ascents. You say it shouldnt be repaired?
@@alexbarcovsky4319 Rock is not a permanent medium and holds break all the time. That's part of life and you figure out how to do the climb with the missing hold.
Definitely is not talked about enough. To really get routes in the 5.14+ grades you have to have great rock quality. The bolts have to be safe and placed in good rock. Some of the best rock quality is very blank and often a route wouldn’t be possible to link up without some level of manufacturing.
Somebody's got to prove to me why magnesium carbonate from magnus's company is somehow different than magnesium carbonate from any other company I'm open to explanations but I have not seen anyone actually explain why it's better or what it does that's better I've only seen extremely unscientific tests of it.
one difference could be the quality of the magnesium carbonate. As in the chalk from magdust is processed more and therefore has less impurities (ie. other types of materials making there way into the chalk) the other thing is placebo is a hell of a drug. I personally tried magdust and it was about the same as other high quality chalk. however all the "high quality" chalks really do feel much better than a generic amazon brand I tried one time. at the end of the day just try it your self and see how it feels for you.
Wow, a rock climbing apparrel brand sponsoring rock climbing videos, so annoying. When I see Rungne ads I always smile and remember this just makes the community better. Would you rather watch Raid Shadow Legends sponsored segments?
Sad about chipping, so many routes that have been destroyed unnecessarily to enable weak people to get to the top. I would never use sikaflex on my routes though, sometimes we need to let the mountain win for there to be a point to climbing
I remember climbing with Todd Skinner back in the day and he sent me up with various brushes files and chisels. I destroyed the route. And he couldn't send it. Limestone is soft.
I've seen glued holds and some that might have been made by a human and it always put me off. All the purity of climbing goes away when ego kicks in :(
I find it quite ironic that climbers see ONLY chipping as the destruction of nature, as if the 30kg of gear manufactured in the four corners of the world in dark metal mines had left no trace. But I agree, the chipping must be done with good intention, sparingly, with the aim of creating something for everyone to enjoy. Some chipped climbs are truly works of art, and should be treated with respect.
"... as if the 30kg of gear manufactured in the four corners of the world in dark metal mines had left no trace". What a load of rubbish. a) No free climbers carry anything like 30kg of gear b) Most climbing gear, carabiners etc, is very well made and can safely last for years.
Plus often scratching shit ton of moss, lichens, ferns and cutting trees around and out of the walls, just as I did this week when preparing new crag. We all are hypocrites
As soon as you decide you have the right to put a bolt in the wall you've already crossed the line. Beyond that, anything goes in my opinion. Should we also leave the dust, vegetation, and moss because it is more natural. And we all love slicing our hands up on sharp holds just because they are natural. Anyone that develops routes regularly will know that 'chipping' to some degree is neccesary to make safe and enjoyable routes. Even brushing will change the route over time. The only rules I follow are, 1: Don't meddle with existing routes. 2: If I think changing the shape of holds improves the route, then do it well enough that most people wouldn't notice.
There's a difference between going back to the 80ies madness and turning the outdoors into a glorified gym experience. If you're making your own holds there's no reason for people to go outside the gym
There's a big difference between looking a wall and thinking, 'I wonder if I can climb up there, I'll make it safe' and thinking 'I can't climb up there, I'll change it'. If you engage regularly in the latter one, then you deny other people opportunity for the first one.
I don't think it's sufficient to say if you cross a line (that you've decided) then any further consideration or discussion is pointless. It's all a matter of degree, and what goes in one area or time is completely unacceptable in another. This is all just a game and we decide the rules collectively. I like that there's a consideration for preserving what nature gave us, I like in the UK that there's a strong trad ethic, but I have no problem that in Canada there are bolted belays everywhere. It's fun to find out how things are done in other places and by other people. I think the points that Adam made are pretty good. There are different reasons to clean/chip/reinforce and he's happier with some than with others. I think we can all agree that there comes a point where excessive alteration without respect for the location is a bad thing.
TBH I don't see any more ethical problems with reinforcing or even chipping holds (when necessary to maintain or "complete" a route) than I do with bolting. What is at stake here other than pride? Even at the highest levels, climbing should be about fun and safety.
chipping usually makes routes easier. if you are mostly looking for hard climbs that can be very annoying. chipping also changes the style of feel of a route and its holds. so chipping definitely transforms a climb into something else than it would be. also without realizing it, different bolters who chip also probably share a lot of stylistic elements and movement styles in their chipped climbs, so you lose some variety over the movement natural rock would give you. same way how gym climbing fails to reproduce the movement variety you see on real rock despite the large amount of different route setters that are out there. you lose something in the process, even if you gain something in return. I think it can still be fine in places like e.g. old quarries that are transformed into climbing areas (the entire place is literally chipped into existence). bolting is different in this regard. the only thing you lose there is the ability to trad climb it. and trad climbing, as we all know, doesn't count.
It's because who gets to decide what is 'possible' or not? If you had shown silence to someone in the 80s or 90s they would have called it impossible, and if someone had decided to chip it to make it possible for them, we wouldn't have the incredible climb we do today. It's frankly arrogant for people to chip something because they can't do it, and it's bad stewardship. Yes, sport climbing requires some intrusion via bolting, but our goal should always be to minimize our impact on the rock itself, to preserve it for future generations and to leave the environment as undamaged as possible. Climbing is about fun and safety, among other things like stewardship, hard work, etc, and bolting is a necessary practice for safety, but chipping isn't. Chipping takes someone else's possible fun and motivation and brings it down to your level. It's the climbing equivalent of taking your ball and going home because you keep losing or getting picked last.
Ondra just said he only knows of about 5 routes harder than 9a that are not reinforced with sikka. So looks like there would be way less hard routes without human intervention so I wouldnt say it makes it easier, it makes it possible.
@@christophh9477 He's talking about reinforcing existing holds, which in my opinion is more of a gray area, not chipping to create new holds, which he says he disagrees with. Reinforcing existing holds is one thing, especially when, like he says, the holds are fairly stable but might come off after being traffic for long periods, but creating new ones just to make your project easier seems much more clear cut wrong. Again, in my opinion even reinforcing existing holds exists in somewhat of a gray area.
I don’t see why this is “a serious problem.” I’m 45 years old, train hard, and will almost certainly never climb 9a-plus - nor will the vast majority of climbers. It’s “a serious problem” for the 0.01 percent, maybe. For the rest of us, well, 🤷🏻♂️
I'm in the same boat. The problem I see, tho, is that people love to do things "like a pro." My main concern is that a gumby armed with a hammer, chisel, and a tube of Sikaflex can do a lot to ruin the vibe of a climbing area.
@@Asdfghjkl-ls1or I didn’t say it’s a non-issue. I asked if it’s really “a serious problem,” which it isn’t. And it’s not just me who’s not affected. The overwhelming majority of climbers will never even attempt 5.15-plus.
@@adamhaas141 yeah that’s true. I climb in an area with a few climbs that have glued/altered holds, but those all date from a time before any ethical code was established. As it is, anyone here who altered any of the classic routes (we have grades up to V12 and 5.14b) would legit be run out of town, and probably prosecuted, seeing as how the place is a national park. But maybe it’s more of a risk in other areas.
@Asdfghjkl-ls1or may be an issue but subjective on if it's a big one or not, issues vary in magnitude. Again 0.01% of people being affected I would say is fair to say it's not a serious issue as he said.
Kind of ridiculous. If people call this unethical, then please also use no shoes, no chalk and possibly no rope :D just the fact that ppl climb on it, turns the rock face already into a playground. So why not use a bit of beautiful adhesive to ensure that it stays a playground?
@@534h7 Exactly, pretty much everyone acknowledges that the line has to be drawn somewhere, the only disagreement is where. For me, I'd say if your enhancement makes it easier to climb or changes the appearance of the route, then you've gone too far. If it only makes it safer and/or more robust, then it's more likely to be fine. However, there is still the consideration that taming the environment too much takes away from the outdoor climbing experience. For people looking for a controlled environment that is a playground rather than a wild outdoor environment, the gym is the right place.
Really depends on the climb. I’d hate to see futuristic stuff getting dumbed down. But as Adam was saying rounding the razor sharp hold on a warmup route, I’m not gonna stop ya.
Gotta pay the bills- it’s actually a ton of work to make this thing. And I’m not a wealthy person. You can always just skip the ads, tho I take pride in the brands I partner with. They’re solid climbing brands and offer great deals to listeners / viewers. Hope your climbing is going well!
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Ratio
I didn't know about this. Very interesting. And as always, Adam is humble and informative.
Love the light fitting Adam
For ref, that kid hammering away at a start holds was Power Prow in Tennessee
Was he a climber, surely should have known better, especially with a camera on him. However that's just our 'ethics' and who are we to say what happens to a rock?
@@philleng480 yes, he was a climber out of PA. The footage was shot by his gf who released it after their relationship exploded to get back at him.
Poor kid heard he did a lot to apologize and become an advocate but yeah the community flamed him hard
Chipping holds was very common in the UK back in my day, 30 years ago. Many popular boulder problems had their holes enlarged by frustrated noobs. Dunno what it like now.
Nobody wants to see how the sausage is made, but it sure is delicious
lol. winning comment.
Is it, though?
@@nilsp9426 i mean in the contexts he's talking about (chossy, super soft limestone that absolutely cannot be developed without breaking stuff off anyway)....erm yeah. but if we're talking about my beloved NRG bullet nuttal sandstone, defo no (i've long felt a sadness about the degree of unnecessary, and frankly shoddy, reinforcement there over the years from bygone eras. clip some chains, look down and see a sea of sika behind the holds and you want to cry. but as Adam points out, most of the world's hardest routes are on the softer limestones that just ain't ready for showtime without "work". in many of those cases, simply cannot put up any routes without the hammer, prybar, and glue. adopt an absolute "no reinforcement/no hammer etc." policy and you lose entire excellent crags. adopt a "chip and glue everything policy" and the same applies (in that an otherwise excellent crag gets unnecessarily manufactured down into submission). it's contextual, which is going to lead to the gray stuff, mistakes made, people crossing the line that wasn't clear in the first place etc. not a perfect system but it's what we got, especially at the upper end of the scale.
Note that the origin of this phrase was when floor grime and human feces was shovelled into sausage along with the meat.
@@TristanCleveland Ooh, interesting. I wonder how that would have tasted, I feel as though those tastes are a bit hard to disguise
Gluing holds so that the character of the route is maintained makes sense, but chipping holds even on an FA goes over the line
I would mostly agree, but what if it's a really nice 10 meter 6c followed by one 7C boulder move and then 10 meters of nice 6c again? The line sucks for 6c climbers because they can't go past the hard move, but it also sucks for 8a climbers because it's not even warmup for them up to the one move crux and then it's too easy again. So it's not a line that interests anyone. It's also not earth shattering grade like a 9c with a stopper crux that makes it 9c+ and you're potentially robbing future generations, it's just 6c with one too hard move. I would say it's gray area at least, but for me personally that's a green area.
@@MykolasSimutis get stronger!
I bet 99% of people totally rejecting reinforced and chipped holds never held a drill in their hands. I've met bolters that fucking built some crags out of chossy rock and countless hours of work. Serving hundreds of climbing in the area FOR FUCKING FREE. And they don't even get the gratitude from users. They only get the comments like 'yeah fun climb if only there wasn't so much glue on the wall'.
Maybe respect the desires of those local climbers then?
Great discussion. I am fairly new and only climb in my local area (limestone) so I didn’t know this was common. I agree that reinforcing or re-adhering holds seems legit.
Sica? Seeca? Ceca? Seca? What's that? Sorry for my ignorance
Sika (brand of industrial adhesive)
sika
Sika is industrial grade adhesive
Sleeping Lion is famous for it. When Alex Megos was working on the second ascent of this new Chris Sharma line, one of the crux holds (I think) broke off. Chris was able to glue the hole back exactly as it had been before, maintaining the route integrity same as the first ascent. I'm not sure why people would debate this. Reglueing a hold that had broken off is only maintaining the route that the bolter had seen greatness in.
thank you all :)
How does this sika stuff work? Do you break a hold off and glue it back on? Or do you reinforce holds with the glue prior to them falling off etc? Just interested
Both. On thin flakes it is often used behind the flake preemptively. And on harder or more well known routes, if an important hold breaks it is sometimes glued back on. In Europe they say sika but in the US we say epoxy.
In my opinion those uses are ethical, but sometimes it is also used to glue holds on which were never on the wall, which obviously is unethical.
@@krakenattackin7617 Little addendum: We don't really say Sika in Europe. Adam is using a brand name here that I(as a German) have never thought of using like that before.
@@HighGravityDaywe use it in France actually :)
@@HighGravityDay Yep, as you said, Sika is a brand. It isn't a general term for glue/adhesive that I've ever come across.
@HighGravityDay on use of the word...well it depends. For eastern Europe we might use it as he is in the video. In bulgaria it's a well known brand. I guess only recently bolted routes are done with the Hilti glue. Generally we call it glue without determining if its epoxy or other composition.
Think this always comes to the intent and consideration. If preparing a route, you should be hammering and prying and brushing to improve safety, as well as reinforcing and gluing for the same purpose. Holds which will come off if someone pulls hard should be removed, holds which will come off if enough someones pull hard should be kept. Then, we get into the conversation about consistency and quality, but we also get into the conversation about should all rocks be climbed? Again, intent and consideration, cause if you have a wall with a dozen lines, and one route never went as the crux is far above the difficulty of the rest of the wall... maybe... but if the wall has nothing without manufacturing cause of blank faces then probably leave.
For a route, I can understand the argument for manipulating the rock in certain instances. For bouldering, there’s no reason or excuse in my opinion. If you can’t climb it how it is, go find another boulder.
My friend just broke off a large hold on Bella Luna recently. The boulder is of historical significance with many ascents. You say it shouldnt be repaired?
@@alexbarcovsky4319 Wait... The chironico bella luna? :o I think the tophold of alphane moon has been glued back multiple times, is it that one again?
@@colosseer4184 no its at the bottom of the boulder.
@@alexbarcovsky4319 Noooo my project 😰well, thanks for the info.
@@alexbarcovsky4319 Rock is not a permanent medium and holds break all the time. That's part of life and you figure out how to do the climb with the missing hold.
Is Sika like JB Weld, where there's a weaker quick dry version that cures in 30-60 min & a stronger version that takes 24 hours to cure?
making sausage isn't pretty people don't realize...
I thought he was saying to "rainforest" it
Same until the third time he said it haha i was so confused. I havent even heard about reinforcing holds until now! 😂
Definitely is not talked about enough. To really get routes in the 5.14+ grades you have to have great rock quality. The bolts have to be safe and placed in good rock. Some of the best rock quality is very blank and often a route wouldn’t be possible to link up without some level of manufacturing.
if you wouldnt reinforce holds with sika, most routes would get shit or impossible after some traffic
Somebody's got to prove to me why magnesium carbonate from magnus's company is somehow different than magnesium carbonate from any other company I'm open to explanations but I have not seen anyone actually explain why it's better or what it does that's better I've only seen extremely unscientific tests of it.
one difference could be the quality of the magnesium carbonate. As in the chalk from magdust is processed more and therefore has less impurities (ie. other types of materials making there way into the chalk)
the other thing is placebo is a hell of a drug. I personally tried magdust and it was about the same as other high quality chalk. however all the "high quality" chalks really do feel much better than a generic amazon brand I tried one time. at the end of the day just try it your self and see how it feels for you.
so lets chip that excalibur
All sports routes are manufactured, the gear is literally drilled into the rock.
Feeling that Rungne fatigue creeping up on me.
Wow, a rock climbing apparrel brand sponsoring rock climbing videos, so annoying. When I see Rungne ads I always smile and remember this just makes the community better. Would you rather watch Raid Shadow Legends sponsored segments?
I will climb 9a when I die and lose enough weight to only be a 👻
Consider it aid?
Sad about chipping, so many routes that have been destroyed unnecessarily to enable weak people to get to the top.
I would never use sikaflex on my routes though, sometimes we need to let the mountain win for there to be a point to climbing
I remember climbing with Todd Skinner back in the day and he sent me up with various brushes files and chisels. I destroyed the route. And he couldn't send it. Limestone is soft.
I've seen glued holds and some that might have been made by a human and it always put me off. All the purity of climbing goes away when ego kicks in :(
You would probably love trad!
remember that almost every popular trad route in yosemite is made possible by chipping. I mean pin scars. same diff
Limestone is absolute choss.
I find it quite ironic that climbers see ONLY chipping as the destruction of nature, as if the 30kg of gear manufactured in the four corners of the world in dark metal mines had left no trace. But I agree, the chipping must be done with good intention, sparingly, with the aim of creating something for everyone to enjoy. Some chipped climbs are truly works of art, and should be treated with respect.
No chipped route deserves respect. A sign of huge ego and tiny brain - there must be MY route here!
"... as if the 30kg of gear manufactured in the four corners of the world in dark metal mines had left no trace". What a load of rubbish. a) No free climbers carry anything like 30kg of gear b) Most climbing gear, carabiners etc, is very well made and can safely last for years.
Plus often scratching shit ton of moss, lichens, ferns and cutting trees around and out of the walls, just as I did this week when preparing new crag. We all are hypocrites
As soon as you decide you have the right to put a bolt in the wall you've already crossed the line. Beyond that, anything goes in my opinion. Should we also leave the dust, vegetation, and moss because it is more natural. And we all love slicing our hands up on sharp holds just because they are natural. Anyone that develops routes regularly will know that 'chipping' to some degree is neccesary to make safe and enjoyable routes. Even brushing will change the route over time. The only rules I follow are, 1: Don't meddle with existing routes. 2: If I think changing the shape of holds improves the route, then do it well enough that most people wouldn't notice.
There's a difference between going back to the 80ies madness and turning the outdoors into a glorified gym experience.
If you're making your own holds there's no reason for people to go outside the gym
There's a big difference between looking a wall and thinking, 'I wonder if I can climb up there, I'll make it safe' and thinking 'I can't climb up there, I'll change it'. If you engage regularly in the latter one, then you deny other people opportunity for the first one.
Most people don’t notice upgraded holds? Is that possible? Can’t you see the difference in color or texture?
I don't think it's sufficient to say if you cross a line (that you've decided) then any further consideration or discussion is pointless. It's all a matter of degree, and what goes in one area or time is completely unacceptable in another. This is all just a game and we decide the rules collectively. I like that there's a consideration for preserving what nature gave us, I like in the UK that there's a strong trad ethic, but I have no problem that in Canada there are bolted belays everywhere. It's fun to find out how things are done in other places and by other people.
I think the points that Adam made are pretty good. There are different reasons to clean/chip/reinforce and he's happier with some than with others. I think we can all agree that there comes a point where excessive alteration without respect for the location is a bad thing.
TBH I don't see any more ethical problems with reinforcing or even chipping holds (when necessary to maintain or "complete" a route) than I do with bolting. What is at stake here other than pride? Even at the highest levels, climbing should be about fun and safety.
chipping usually makes routes easier. if you are mostly looking for hard climbs that can be very annoying. chipping also changes the style of feel of a route and its holds. so chipping definitely transforms a climb into something else than it would be. also without realizing it, different bolters who chip also probably share a lot of stylistic elements and movement styles in their chipped climbs, so you lose some variety over the movement natural rock would give you. same way how gym climbing fails to reproduce the movement variety you see on real rock despite the large amount of different route setters that are out there.
you lose something in the process, even if you gain something in return. I think it can still be fine in places like e.g. old quarries that are transformed into climbing areas (the entire place is literally chipped into existence).
bolting is different in this regard. the only thing you lose there is the ability to trad climb it. and trad climbing, as we all know, doesn't count.
It's because who gets to decide what is 'possible' or not? If you had shown silence to someone in the 80s or 90s they would have called it impossible, and if someone had decided to chip it to make it possible for them, we wouldn't have the incredible climb we do today. It's frankly arrogant for people to chip something because they can't do it, and it's bad stewardship. Yes, sport climbing requires some intrusion via bolting, but our goal should always be to minimize our impact on the rock itself, to preserve it for future generations and to leave the environment as undamaged as possible. Climbing is about fun and safety, among other things like stewardship, hard work, etc, and bolting is a necessary practice for safety, but chipping isn't. Chipping takes someone else's possible fun and motivation and brings it down to your level. It's the climbing equivalent of taking your ball and going home because you keep losing or getting picked last.
Chipping anything below 10c is same as ruining futuristic projects
Ondra just said he only knows of about 5 routes harder than 9a that are not reinforced with sikka. So looks like there would be way less hard routes without human intervention so I wouldnt say it makes it easier, it makes it possible.
@@christophh9477 He's talking about reinforcing existing holds, which in my opinion is more of a gray area, not chipping to create new holds, which he says he disagrees with. Reinforcing existing holds is one thing, especially when, like he says, the holds are fairly stable but might come off after being traffic for long periods, but creating new ones just to make your project easier seems much more clear cut wrong. Again, in my opinion even reinforcing existing holds exists in somewhat of a gray area.
I don’t see why this is “a serious problem.” I’m 45 years old, train hard, and will almost certainly never climb 9a-plus - nor will the vast majority of climbers. It’s “a serious problem” for the 0.01 percent, maybe. For the rest of us, well, 🤷🏻♂️
Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't make it a non-issue 😂
I'm in the same boat. The problem I see, tho, is that people love to do things "like a pro." My main concern is that a gumby armed with a hammer, chisel, and a tube of Sikaflex can do a lot to ruin the vibe of a climbing area.
@@Asdfghjkl-ls1or I didn’t say it’s a non-issue. I asked if it’s really “a serious problem,” which it isn’t. And it’s not just me who’s not affected. The overwhelming majority of climbers will never even attempt 5.15-plus.
@@adamhaas141 yeah that’s true. I climb in an area with a few climbs that have glued/altered holds, but those all date from a time before any ethical code was established. As it is, anyone here who altered any of the classic routes (we have grades up to V12 and 5.14b) would legit be run out of town, and probably prosecuted, seeing as how the place is a national park. But maybe it’s more of a risk in other areas.
@Asdfghjkl-ls1or may be an issue but subjective on if it's a big one or not, issues vary in magnitude. Again 0.01% of people being affected I would say is fair to say it's not a serious issue as he said.
Kind of ridiculous. If people call this unethical, then please also use no shoes, no chalk and possibly no rope :D just the fact that ppl climb on it, turns the rock face already into a playground. So why not use a bit of beautiful adhesive to ensure that it stays a playground?
Yeah might as well just glue gym holds on rock because we use climbing shoes.
@@534h7 Exactly, pretty much everyone acknowledges that the line has to be drawn somewhere, the only disagreement is where. For me, I'd say if your enhancement makes it easier to climb or changes the appearance of the route, then you've gone too far. If it only makes it safer and/or more robust, then it's more likely to be fine. However, there is still the consideration that taming the environment too much takes away from the outdoor climbing experience. For people looking for a controlled environment that is a playground rather than a wild outdoor environment, the gym is the right place.
@@534h7 wasn't there a route like that somewhere 😢?
Really depends on the climb. I’d hate to see futuristic stuff getting dumbed down. But as Adam was saying rounding the razor sharp hold on a warmup route, I’m not gonna stop ya.
@@534h7 I mean, it's been done. So clearly someone out there doesn't give a shit about your line either?
Chipping and glueing rock is disgusting.
Relax, ist not black and white, so a matter how you do it.
Yeah makes me want to vomit... truly the issue of our time.
Climbed chipped lines and it was quite fun. Keep it simple.
....maybe. But Magdust sucks.
10 minutes of advertising stuff on your podcast ... I am off
Gotta pay the bills- it’s actually a ton of work to make this thing. And I’m not a wealthy person. You can always just skip the ads, tho I take pride in the brands I partner with. They’re solid climbing brands and offer great deals to listeners / viewers. Hope your climbing is going well!
Are you paying for the podcast and the work put into doing this? Because someone needs to.