The Jedi preach no attachments in fear of falling to the dark side only for Atris to get so attached to her dogmatic beliefs that she fell anyway. How ironic.
Why do you think Mace Windu got himself killed, that’s why Jin many times disobeyed the order not because he didn’t like them but because the attachment of it.
@@goodmind4940 , just the whole "don't get married" and "train them from a very very young age" rubbed some folks the wrong way when the Prequels first came out.
@Omni-Man These types of rules that b*tch Atris established are repressive, literally unnecessary, irrelevant, hypocritical and should be ignored. Hmm no why wonder Luke and his new Order abolished some of these ridiculous restrictions that goes against the nature of humanity itself.
@@harmonyovabraxas5556 No, it doesn’t. The Jedi are a monastic cult, they will train older people in extreme cases, but they want an untouched canvas to make a paragon of light in their hopes. You can’t teach a lot of the meditation and knowledge say a padawan who has been doing it since he was 1-3, when you yourself came in at 25-30.
@@erikurizita6702 The jedi were of course right in many ways and brought great good to the galaxy. Additionally, Anakin fucked himself over into falling to the dark side. That is clear, but a lot of what made him fall were the misconceptions the jedi forced onto him. There was nobody there to really talk to him about how emotions work or to explain in great detail the effects and results of emotion and the force, just repetition of rhetoric and platitudes. He was just meant to figure it out. Both him and the order are at fault. Ex: a douchy 20 yr old. Even if the parents are loving, excessive restrictions teach kids bad habits. Kids learn to lie. They learn to sneak around to get their way. They do drugs without understanding the real consequences because they "can just quit" When the kid grows up they should be able to make good choices as an adult. Instead, they spend a decade realizing they have a physical or psychological addiction, the way they interact with others is cringy at best and malevolent at worst, and they have a hard time correcting those mistakes because they are immature with a weak emotional vocabulary. A well intentioned system, yes. Usually right, yes, but deeply and irrevocably flawed, also yes. The only reason it took so long to fall was because no one had ever been quite as powerful as Anakin in quite as fragile a portion of the modern jedi order.
@@michaelandreipalon359 no. Mace may have more of an extremely loyal and effective servant of the Republic than being a servant of the light side, but the match up between atris and mundi for mma fight is that of 2 masters that do not truly symbolise the ways of the order.
I love the fall of Atris because it's so damn unique. Pretty much every fall to the Dark side, save maybe Count Dooku that we see is always hyperviolent, burst of rage type of fall, and then there is Atris who's fall was described perfectly by Kreia as quiet. She fell and didn't even realize it and her fall is just so damn sinister for it.
Atris is a hypocrite. She created rules and traditions she never followed, denied the existence of Jedi survivors despite beeing fully aware of their survival, she judged Meetra Surik despite the fact she was allready fallen from belief herself. I didn't like her from the start.
Perhaps my opinion will be bit to much, but I must say, that she was single for far too long, and she lacked a good... man, which showed in her mental instability, well no wonder, Jedi doctrine is so... unnatural.
The core problem of the Jedi is not dogmatic adherence to rules and tradition. The problem is the hypocrisy. It's what caused Anakin to fall. Throughout RotS, he was confronted again and again with hypocrisy at the highest levels of the Jedi Order. And then, in his last moments before his fall, when he was still clinging to his vows and the hope that his masters really were his moral superiors, arguing that killing Palpatine was not the Jedi way, Mace Windu said that Palpatine was too dangerous to be left alive. The exact same words that this supposedly ultimate evil had said about Dooku. He realized that the only difference between Mace Windu--and the Jedi Order as a whole--and the Sith was that the Jedi were hypocrites who hid behind lies of virtue.
Does anyone else kinda want the Batch to end up at Rishi at some point? Would be a good character moment for Echo, maybe they find the old commando droid pod that they came in
I love this comment! It calls to mind Lana Beniko, a Sith Lord from about three centuries after Atris's lifetime. Upon being asked about her lack of a title, she responds, "Knowledge, answers, truth, the Force: these are the things I hold dear. Titles don't interest me." In a way, Lana and Atris are very much alike in that they both seem to be written to shatter certain preconceptions on what a Jedi or a Sith can/should be like.
Me: You are no Jedi, you are not the last of the Jedi! You are a traitor and murderer. You are Sith and you deny it! You are a monster because of your hatred towards someone you once admired. Ya, she's a hateful back stabbing traitor. Hope they exiled her real good and stripped her of the force. She deserves it.
Force powers back in the DotJ/TotJ/KotOR eras were known to be quite powerful, with one notable example being Darth Nihilus' life devouring. And in the case of The Silmarilliion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings, magical powers and immortality were all too common back in the days of Numenor's existence; alas, after Numenor sank to the watery abyss, the magic started to fade away, and immortality became nonexistent.
Who would have thought that sitting for hours each day in a room full of Sith Holocrons while being a force sensitive would have any negative side effects? The Jedi are surely not that great of screening for any kind of corruption or manipulation from people who study artifacts infused with the dark side, they really should have seen that one coming multiple times. But for me, this is what i really like about the contruct of the Jedi. They are fundamentally flawed, but so is life itself and the challenge is to overcome ones flaws, its a nice little life lesson.
@UTubeFekUrself so true. She was delusional, unable to understand that everything she hated about Meetra was really displeasure at her own willingness to do what was right. She hid behind the rhetoric of proven fools, hypocrites and their dogma to dam her shame. She had a stronger desire to be viewed as righteous and moral than she did to actually be righteous and moral. Something we see in the real world so often today.
@@tux75 Vrook's just a douche, not really evil. Don't get me wrong, I hate his guts. But he didn't straight up become a Sith in all but name, like Atris or Pong Krell.
Makes sense looking back on things that the 'reforms' pushed by Atris would be completely ossified in the Order by the time of Palpatine and be a large part of enabling Palpatine to take apart the order dogmatically. Weird how all the 'corrections' she made to what she saw as flaws would later on find ways to make even worse schisms..
Weird that the Jedi never noticed that falling to the Dark Side was almost completely unheard of for more than twenty thousand years until her reforms. Then, suddenly you have entire armies worth of Jedi, literally, falling to the Dark Side both in the Jedi Civil War and in the Great Galactic War and countless others over the proceeding millennia. Gee, almost like emotionally stunting everyone is a bad idea and emotional maturity is necessary. And that removing the student caste and slapping its name onto apprentices was a good idea. Oh, and of course basically dumping the excess so the entire order is dragged down by its own lack of numbers and completely crippled in both its ability to perform its duties, adapt to increasing populations and territories, and defend against any other group that _doesn't_ limit itself. Brilliant ideas. If you want to destroy the Jedi.
@@geetslys Might have something to do with being separated from their parents when their toddlers. Or letting a crazy Sith Lord whisper in your hear for years
To be fair, a more proactive Jedi Order can be a good thing to go out there and help those that need it, but there needs to be a balance otherwise you become to battle-hungry and engrossed in combat that you fall to the Dark Side. Clearly, Atris's order was not the correct one by a long shot.
@@hackman669 I don't think that would be a good idea. After all, having the Jedi spread too thin is what allowed Exar Kunn to put his plan and betrayal into action without much opposition, and it was also because the Jedi were scattered throughout the galaxy that Order 66 went off so well. However, I think having at least one or two extra locations to station Jedi outside of Courascant might be a good idea, so they have locations of the galaxy they can keep track of when something happens without having to wait for word to get to Courascant. So like one in the Mid-Rim and one in the Outer-Rim.
Personally, I'd have the Jedi Order as nomadic. Travelling from one spaceport to the next in service to The Force and the Order. No attachments to any one planet at all.
Pretty much, cause without her attachment forbidden rule, maybe Yoda could have gave a better advice to Anakin than just learn to let go of what he fears to lose
@@chapkenobi9887 and sadly the order was her attachment just like Mace Windu, mmm, now what do I can that I can't remember oh yep, hypocrisy. Plus Revan would have called her out for s***, knowing what happened to his lover wife.
Qui Gon would have been the ideal teacher for Anakin but unfortunately he died before he could. I honestly think it was all fated to happen, the fall of the Jedi and the rise of Sideous was the will of the force
@@SevenPr1me Always been a firm believer that Vader killing almost all the Jedi and then killing Palpatine and himself DID bring Balance. So the prophecy did come true.
If you ever wondered what the Sith Holocrons are whispering: "We'd like to talk you about your cars extended warranty"..... How could you NOT fall to the Dark Side?!
@@SomeAngryGuy1997 there was a big "breach" of security at many of the big phone companies and user numbers went on the open market. People now use auto-dialers to try to scam others. A common one is extended car warranty. I get at least 4 calls a day with the B.S.
Most of Atris' reforms were good ideas (especially limiting the amount of Padawans one Jedi could take), she was just bad at implementing them and refused to see the error of her ways.
Also, the fact that no one saw how these limits actively impeded on their abilities in all those 4000 years really speaks to how narrow minded the Jedi became, unwilling to break from traditions.
@@STG44musikmeister It's always the curse of the Jedi, if you look at canon history. (1) They start well-meaning (2) They create ideals. (3) Ideals become tradition. (4) They become complacent and dogmatic (5) They become arrogant and passively self-aggrandizing, refusing to believe they could be wrong ("Revan is dead"/"We must destroy you, Exile"/"The Sith hasn't been seen in 2000 years, Qui-Gon") (6)Their arrogance leads to conflict that tears their Order apart (7) Their Order barely survives the aftermath. (8) The survivors rebuild the Order with the intent to be 'better', again another well-meant objective. (9) See point 1, rinse and repeat
Well yeah. She cared more for the concept than the actual plans. People like her have good ideas, but no real road map to complete them. She was an idealist, but you really need a Realist or Pessimist paired with them, to see it put in practice properly.
Well not really. Some of those reforms have to be scrapped (for example the padawan limit since for rebuilding the order you might have no other choice if there’s so few Knights, never mind masters around)
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” I think an appropriate quote. So determined was she to snuff out the dark that eventually it's all she saw. And that is when the dark side has you. It's that that same fear that would eventually lead to the downfall of the Jedi order at the end of the Clone Wars.
You know they use it in baldurs gate. It’s a beautiful quote from nietzche. It even scares me when i play my character and even in myself. The fact that we all have a monster that can be unleashed for greater power at the cost of control and will.
@@vocalcalibration8033 i would even buy it for you just so you try them. Baldurs gate 1 is fantastic because it reveals your story. Then baldurs gate 2 tears into your core over the choices you can make. All the while villains test your soul at every turn. Brilliantly written villains except siege of dragonspear. Focus on baldurs gate 1 and 2 plus throne of bhaal.
Which is why introspection and humility are such fundamentally important skills to develop. Without them you start to wrack up the mistakes and become too proud to ever learn from them. In the end, you become a parody of what you wanted to become in the first place. An arrogant, self-righteous judge who only spreads evil. (There's a Frollo reference there somewhere.)
Oh Lawd... I despised Atris in KOTOR II. Ridiculously self-righteous and condescending. She's just asking to be punched in the face. The fact she dresses in all-white is just one example of how self-righteous she is.
Every time I watch RoTS, and I see Anakin talking to Yoda about his dreams of Padme dying, and Yoda says "Rejoice in her death, let attachments go..." I think, "Those Jedi had it coming"
No. As Obi-Wan said, he did that himself. He wanted to be a man-child and wanted to both have his cake and eat it and was too cowardly to leave the Order for Padme and too weak to not have pursued Padme in the first place. He was not a bad person. But he was a failure as a person.
Hmm they did bring Revan Back for some time and there is also Malek doing his sithy thing in SWTOR soo. What I do not get is Kotor occurs before SWOTOR, but we do not see Atris' policies implemented in the Jedi Storylines as much as I thought they should have been. Again I may be incorrect as it has been sometime since I went over these topics.
@@skyquester The consule was small since weren't a lot of masters left due to what Malgus did. So they had to go back to their own ways. Since the romance thing was in place if you played through the Jedi Consular's storyline where you master had an affair which was forbiddened. Even your romances are seen as tabooish as a Jedi even if they value your power and loyality a bit more.
@@skyquester Well, the Jedi Exile and his/her companions are the ones who rebuilt the Jedi Order, so there’s no way they’d be quite as dogmatic as Atris was.
I mean it does take place a full 300 years later and the Exile had died long before the Sith Empire even joined the war, so that doesn’t seem all too weird to me.
Channel scriptwriter here - this is actually a fandom myth. The molten lead thing only exists in canon (in legends the slugs just vaporized) and it notably isn't effective in the few examples of its use. The power of a Jedi doesn't come from the lightsaber, but from the Force, and the Force provides many ways to avoid incoming projectiles. Slugthrowers had about as good a chance as blasters against Jedi. But there were some effective ways to kill Jedi - stay tuned for a video to that effect soon-ish ;)
There can not be dark without light. It's Ying and Yang. You can't completely destroy the Jedi. They are the symbol of the light side of the force, and the force itself is in flux without a 'beacon' on both camps
I keep forgetting that Atris was a contemporary of Kreia's. Atris' fall to the Dark Side must have been much more recent and subtle than that of Kreia, for them to appear so different in age.
@@dtxspeaks268 Don't forget that the Light Side of the Force often sustain Jedi beyond otherwise natural limits. While I highly doubt Atris is as old as Kreia, she could be much older than her youthful appearance suggests. Even at 55yrs of age, that would still make Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma within her lifetime. Kreia was an older Padawan or a young Knight at the time.
@@james501001 a main point is that religious fanaticism ,combine whith of lack of self accountability makes for a whole lot of trouble I mean look at our history
@Omni-Man There's a simple argument that shows morality doesn't originate in religions: If it did, we wouldn't find anything in religion to be morally problematic.
Basically atris is the Danzo of the jedi, the core reason that mostly everything went wrong in her time. She essentially sacrifices an entire planet in the name of "stopping the sith" but really came out to nothing and but losing the very people needed to fight the threat. Considering her history, it's hard to tell how much of her actions was derived from dark side corruption or shear incompetence.
@@jediknightjameslunagazer7632 Yes, they are referring to Danzo Shimura. Which is a fair comparison. The main difference is, that while Danzo did what he did out of a desire to protect the Leaf Village, he had moments of genuine malicious intent. The framing of Yahiko and the original Akatsuki comes to mind. Atris just made bad decisions, Danzo made evil ones.
@@austinkersey2445 Danzo did what he did out of self-loathing and fear because he saw himself as a coward and was overcompensating by being a ruthless machiavellian Gestapo type who refused to even consider more diplomatic or open-ended problems to solutions because those didn't let him live out his fantasy that he was a hard-nosed realist.
She is the old republic version of ki adi mundi, I mean her interpretation of the jedi code was just too extreme, this is an example of what happens if you take things too far
Just imagine what happened if Sidious ever met her. I think that he would have made her his apprentice. Instead of Maul Qui Gon and Obi Wan would fight her at the end of episode I.
It's real life commentary. Every organization with a well-meant intention at the start, when left unchecked, eventually becomes bureaucratic, at best, and dogmatic, at worst. See: religious organizations.
I feel like Atris had a good excuse for the anger and pain she felt. The number of times planets around her got crispy. I'd have a complex myself. Great video. New fan of your work.
Not sure if its canon or legends at this point but, there was a time when the Jedi and Sith were one and the same. I believe they were called the Je'daii Order. But once the Dark Jedi became bitter and wanted power, they broke off from the order and fought. Even though the Dark Jedi were exiled later to become Sith, few would still be corrupted by the Dark like Atris. Its not really about the Jedi endangering the galaxy. Its more so natural greed for power. Some people can ignore it but others can't.
@@Th3og0ny That I believe was around Ajunta Pall's time, Xendor merely wanted Bogan to be respected and the leaders of the Je'daii at the time didn't like that. All because of the immense stupidity of the Kwa and their senseless need to uplift species before their proper time which led to the rise of the Rakatan Infinite Empire to this point.
With the Jedi being removed from the day to day of the galaxy (Sort of like Buddhist monks) they fail to grasp the emotions of people, they almost fear emotions and instead act almost on logic, which never works out well, i sense similarities between "Emotional Numbing" and certain Jedi beliefs/approaches
@@Tcrumpen Jedi act neither logically or morally. They act according to the Jedi Code, which is far from being logical or moral. Revan after the events of KOTOR, as well as post-Endor Luke (In legends continuity), those were force-users who acted logically & morally.
Well Disney is now taking ideas abd characters from EU and the 6 movies since their original ideas (TLJ, resistance and most of Rebels) sucked ass. Plus who's to say KOTOR 1 and 2 and Republic commando aren't canon? They dont contradict anything that's in the 6 movies or TCW or the other shows and games that I know of.
@@dtxspeaks268 yeah, it's good that they're starting to use some of the established material As for KOTOR, it seems as if Disney are acknowledging it, definitely a good move
I can definitely say that Atris is up there of being the worse Jedi or just being a dark Jedi since she's mostly responsible for the mass genocide of a whole planet.
Yeah, without her the clone legions would have been quickly annihilated by their Jedi generals. And, well, I mean, the Separatists also would've been curbstomped pretty much immediately and it wouldn't really be called a "war" in any fairness. But, that's beside the point. The Sith/Jedi of old were literally referred to as godlike.
I think it's fairly clear that Atris had romantic infatuation over Surik. This conflicted with her traditionalist mindset of Jedi not having relationships and also compounded the frustrations Atris felt about wanting to follow Surik but also feeling bound to oppose her.
do you realize that Atris was the massive supporter of Non Attachment in the first place. Up to her, it was common place for Jedi to have families. Blame her for No-no on Attachment, Romance and Family.
@@DeathScepter I do, yes, I actually think that's her version of repressing herself, and led to more of her self destructive tendencies. Incidentally if you choose to play as a male version of the Jedi Exile, some discussion with the Echani Handmaiden Brianna reveals that Atris had harbored feelings for the Exile, and the Exile's decision to leave the Jedi for the Mandalorian Wars was in fact the trigger for her eventual fall to the dark side.
Funnily enough she ruined any chance she might have had with Surik by being so keen on banning attachments, opposing the war and later trying to get her executed Not saying if she went with Surik that they would have had a romantic relationship, but at least she would be close to her hero instead of pushing her away and resenting it for the rest of her life She only made herself miserable
Her guilt and and feeling of betrayal to someone she admired ate at her psyche for years as she sat alone with artifacts that whispered contradictions in her ears 24/7. I'm surprised she didn't pull a Darth *forgot his name* (go mad) and start destroying the relics and artifacts she collected.
That's what I always loved about the legends universe, there was depth in morality and the Force wasn't a simple sliding scale. The Force was indeed alive with a will unto it's self that would tug on anyone who could sense it pulling them to make choices that would either bring them closer to the light or the dark side. The Force didn't care which the simple act of making those choices feed it as that was it's goal which is why any force user could use any force power or ability it was just easier to use it if you aligned with the side it was formed in. Kreia figured out the Force had a will and affected sith and jedi alike to become closer to their respective sides of the force and hated it for it. Which makes sense as that knowledge would make the morality of both effective null in the ideological debate between the two. The only real choice you had was to not lean on the force or follow it but remain balance not giving in to what the force wanted. You didn't get that level of depth in what the force is and what it really could be in the movies which is part of the massive list of reasons the new disney star wars is so crap. -_-
So from what I understand and with my knowledge of psychology, Atris became so angry with Mitra Surik (apologies for the misspelling) and her conflicted thoughts on her decision with how the Jedi Order should have handled the Mandalorian Wars and the Sith that she developed Schizophrenia. How ironic
@@ale-xsantos1078 That's not what makes her schizophrenic, it was her believing so deeply that she was still serving the light. Her reality was morphed so badly.
I find it interesting that sith like Kreia and the Inquisitor from SWTOR(if you choose to) teach better Jedi than many in the Jedi who trained more dangerous Sith than average, Examples: Vader, Scourge, Jacen solo(legends). If they do another run of Visions this concept should be an episode.
Probably because they are far less rigid and narrow-minded. Not to mention that their own experiences with the idiocy and self-destructive aspects of both orders give them a sense of wisdom that Jedi who were trained traditionally often lack.
*Darth Maul:* In order to beat your enemy, you must understand them. Learn from them. Even practice their belief system. 😏 *Ezra:* Yeah.. I don’t think so. 🤨 *Atris:* Ooooooooooooooookaaaaaaay!!!!! 🤩
Ah the jedi failing time and time again because when they find something litterly leaking evil they immediately put it somewhere to study or build a temple right next to it
The dark side always believes itself into believing it’s good, it never starts with a overnight transformation, it always starts with a small Nitch here and there.
I've played and beaten KOTOR one and 2 probably over 30 times. Sounds like you have as well Great video! Kudos on your knowledge of the star wars universe. 👏
A little fix: Kreia did not intentionally kill the jedi, she consumed their force powers because she wanted them to see the universe "through the eyes of the exile". They were so attached to the force, that losing it meant their death, while the loss of the force didn't for the Exile. They possibly died understanding that they were wrong. If you spare Atris, she then tells that she deserves to be exiled herself. Well at least in the end she admits of her fall to the dark side.
I always felt like there was more to learn of Atris in KOTOR 2 wasn’t the best at following the dialogue to its ultimate conclusion wish I had now.. sounds like a good reason to replay
10:00: What relatable words, from an incoherent voice of wisdom and lies. 11:28: My bets on Vergere being the Traya of the Darth Plagueis-Yuuzhan Vong War era. 12:01: Anyone did something different in their playthroughs?
Atris she’s the one who brought the reforms like the no attachment rule, or the taking babies rule that corrupted the Jedi order And for a short while, her reforms were banned until the Rusaan reformation it ended up corrupting them again, turning them into slaves putting back those reforms that turned them into such
Maybe it was no coincidence that the rules she implemented into the Jedi order we're to limit both the number of Jedi being born *AND* trained. If I we're a Sith Lord working within the Jedi order itself, those are definitely the kind of restrictions I would place within the group I had planned on fighting & destroying.
I can understand the one apprentice rule though as it would allow more focus on the student and you wouldn’t have to juggle two or more Padawans that might be struggling or have vastly different needs. But if done correctly perhaps a Jedi Knight/Master could juggle two Padawans
I should add that Atris not only has lured Meetra, but also spread rumors, that Meetra was last of the Jedi, for sith to chase her. Also Atris had never taught a padawan, as Exile states, a minor detail, which becomes more serious in light of Atris' wish to create her own version of Jedi Order. And the plan was really grand - Meetra lures sith, battles them, weakens them, and then Atris steals all the spotlight by crushing those, who were unlucky to survive the encounter with Meetra.
I believe that Atris was in love with Surik (they may have been lovers but that isn't important to the story) that's why she reacted so badly to Surik leaving for the Mando war and this caused her change to the DS.
Atris was clearly not in the right mind and unable to see reality at times. Called herself the last Jedi knowing there were others out there. She wasn't competent either, as she made plans to rebuild the Jedi but never acted to do so. That's the problem with the Jedi in her era, they always planned or mediated and never acted in time. At least most of the time. They were right in that the Jedi that went into war would fall to the dark side, true. But they abandoned their duties out of being too cautious when it was their responsibility to protect the innocent.
I always wanted the Jedi Order to evolve to be more like Gray Jedi. Less restrictions like forbidding emotional attachment and certain sith powers but still want to upload peace and justice in the galaxy. Too many jedi fell to the dark side because the order is too rigid.
The Mace Windu of The Old Republic Clinging to old and outdated beliefs Shunning and banishing anyone who dared thought otherwise Refused to believe her ways caused more damage then good Revan and Luke{Legends content} were right to view change as growth, not dark side
Atris desperately needed Meetra to be wrong, to roll over and *admit* she was wrong, so that Atris could then have that sense of validation from being the one to "fix" Meetra. For the greater good, of course. Not at all because Atris had any kind of attachment to Meetra herself, perish the thought.
Imagine how much evil could be averted if a powerful Jedi just decides to step back "because it's too hard, let someone else do it" instead ... fall, trying.
I imagine they hid out in Jolee's hut in the Shadowlands during the Dark War and helped Meetra's companions and Bastila rebuild the order after the events of Kotor 2
According to context clues, it seems Jolee survived by hiding (maybe) and Juhani died on Katarr. I personally think it would be weird writing if they had these characters everyone loved and just said we killed them off.
Lol, I was hoping for someone to bring it up. The headcanon that Atris having feelings for the Exile (both as male and female) could work *if* both are around the same age (explains why Atris felt so betrayed when Meetra Surik went to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, thus developing resentment and hatred towards him/her, probably creating the "no attachment" rule for the Jedi Order because of her emotional attachment to Meetra leading to this supposed "betrayal" she felt, and ultimately falling to the dark side). But personally I feel that the relationship between Atris and Meetra is more akin to Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship but with reversed circumstances, where the master instead of the apprentice fell to the dark side because of their issues with their respective attachments.
Atris is a perfect example of the failing of the Jedi, how they become slowly corrupt in their own self righteous dogma and blind to that very corruption. She's a great example of why the Force spawns Sith to purge the Jedi again and again.
@@HumanB312 I know but my point is that the title says that she was the most evil Jedi in history but she doesn't seem that evil because she redeemed herself. To me a Jedi who was truly evil was Jorus C'Baoth, to me he acted more as a Sith than a Jedi.
The Jedi preach no attachments in fear of falling to the dark side only for Atris to get so attached to her dogmatic beliefs that she fell anyway. How ironic.
Why do you think Mace Windu got himself killed, that’s why Jin many times disobeyed the order not because he didn’t like them but because the attachment of it.
And she was even more attached to Surik but wouldnt allow herself to accept it, to admit she loved her and she was wrong
She could save others from the Dark Side, but not herself
@@chuckleshelicopterwigwamjo7315 Nice twist of quate.
*“Ironic…”*
“It’s such a quiet thing to fall…but far more terrible is to admit it.”
One of my absolute favorite lines of Kreia’s
ITS SO GOOD
To me Kreia is the embodiment of knowledge, alongside Plagueis, Yoda, Qui-Gon and all the others. And clever wits😂...
So wait, Atris was behind all of the policies people found disturbing in the Prequels? Well if it had to be anyone, it was her alright.
What's so disturbing about it?
@@goodmind4940 , just the whole "don't get married" and "train them from a very very young age" rubbed some folks the wrong way when the Prequels first came out.
@Omni-Man These types of rules that b*tch Atris established are repressive, literally unnecessary, irrelevant, hypocritical and should be ignored. Hmm no why wonder Luke and his new Order abolished some of these ridiculous restrictions that goes against the nature of humanity itself.
@@harmonyovabraxas5556 No, it doesn’t. The Jedi are a monastic cult, they will train older people in extreme cases, but they want an untouched canvas to make a paragon of light in their hopes. You can’t teach a lot of the meditation and knowledge say a padawan who has been doing it since he was 1-3, when you yourself came in at 25-30.
@@erikurizita6702 The jedi were of course right in many ways and brought great good to the galaxy. Additionally, Anakin fucked himself over into falling to the dark side. That is clear, but a lot of what made him fall were the misconceptions the jedi forced onto him. There was nobody there to really talk to him about how emotions work or to explain in great detail the effects and results of emotion and the force, just repetition of rhetoric and platitudes. He was just meant to figure it out. Both him and the order are at fault. Ex: a douchy 20 yr old. Even if the parents are loving, excessive restrictions teach kids bad habits. Kids learn to lie. They learn to sneak around to get their way. They do drugs without understanding the real consequences because they "can just quit" When the kid grows up they should be able to make good choices as an adult. Instead, they spend a decade realizing they have a physical or psychological addiction, the way they interact with others is cringy at best and malevolent at worst, and they have a hard time correcting those mistakes because they are immature with a weak emotional vocabulary. A well intentioned system, yes. Usually right, yes, but deeply and irrevocably flawed, also yes. The only reason it took so long to fall was because no one had ever been quite as powerful as Anakin in quite as fragile a portion of the modern jedi order.
Kiadi Mundi: Finally, a worthy opponent. Our battle will be legendary!!
We need to see that as an MMA fight lol
MMA? Mace would win that.
@@michaelandreipalon359 no. Mace may have more of an extremely loyal and effective servant of the Republic than being a servant of the light side, but the match up between atris and mundi for mma fight is that of 2 masters that do not truly symbolise the ways of the order.
What about Pong Krell?
yes, but Atris seems more fleshed out
I love the fall of Atris because it's so damn unique. Pretty much every fall to the Dark side, save maybe Count Dooku that we see is always hyperviolent, burst of rage type of fall, and then there is Atris who's fall was described perfectly by Kreia as quiet. She fell and didn't even realize it and her fall is just so damn sinister for it.
Still in rage and resentment of course. just not quick
When nurturing asinine philosophies, there comes a time when the pressure forces a choice: to adapt or to break.
Atris is a hypocrite. She created rules and traditions she never followed, denied the existence of Jedi survivors despite beeing fully aware of their survival, she judged Meetra Surik despite the fact she was allready fallen from belief herself. I didn't like her from the start.
The Jedi order itself are hypocrites, especially the council
Visas should have been mad at Atris for trying to lure a dark presence (nihilus) and try to destroy it.
Perhaps my opinion will be bit to much, but I must say, that she was single for far too long, and she lacked a good... man, which showed in her mental instability, well no wonder, Jedi doctrine is so... unnatural.
The core problem of the Jedi is not dogmatic adherence to rules and tradition. The problem is the hypocrisy. It's what caused Anakin to fall. Throughout RotS, he was confronted again and again with hypocrisy at the highest levels of the Jedi Order. And then, in his last moments before his fall, when he was still clinging to his vows and the hope that his masters really were his moral superiors, arguing that killing Palpatine was not the Jedi way, Mace Windu said that Palpatine was too dangerous to be left alive. The exact same words that this supposedly ultimate evil had said about Dooku. He realized that the only difference between Mace Windu--and the Jedi Order as a whole--and the Sith was that the Jedi were hypocrites who hid behind lies of virtue.
@@rohenthar8449 nah not every person needs or wants to have a romantic connection.
Atris is what Bastila probably felt like to people who didn't wanna romance her
I can confirm, yes they're pretty similar, except Atris has fewer redeeming traits.
Nah, Bastila never came off like such a prick
True lol!
I second the confirmation. I got a big holier-than-thou attitude from her that completely put me off.
As a gay dude, definitely less annoying than Atris
Everyone remembers the droid attack on the Wookiees, but I’m still sad about the droid attack on the rookies
YOU DID NOT.
Rip hevy and the boys
At least Echo is still around... but for how long?
Never forget Rishi Station.
Does anyone else kinda want the Batch to end up at Rishi at some point? Would be a good character moment for Echo, maybe they find the old commando droid pod that they came in
"I am Atris, Jedi master. The last historian of the Jedi, The last of the Jedi"
*"Those are title, i dont give a f*ck about them"*
I love this comment! It calls to mind Lana Beniko, a Sith Lord from about three centuries after Atris's lifetime. Upon being asked about her lack of a title, she responds, "Knowledge, answers, truth, the Force: these are the things I hold dear. Titles don't interest me." In a way, Lana and Atris are very much alike in that they both seem to be written to shatter certain preconceptions on what a Jedi or a Sith can/should be like.
Me: You are no Jedi, you are not the last of the Jedi! You are a traitor and murderer. You are Sith and you deny it! You are a monster because of your hatred towards someone you once admired.
Ya, she's a hateful back stabbing traitor. Hope they exiled her real good and stripped her of the force. She deserves it.
Pre Bane: the Jedi were capable as much as the Sith, or even more so.
Post Bane: not so much, outside the clone wars
Bane moment
@@geetslys the republic is the Jedi’s greatest supporter, but also their greatest detractors.
Ironic
Ancient history sure had a lot of godlike moments. Pity entropy a la Middle-earth and Numenor exist.
@@michaelandreipalon359 ?
Force powers back in the DotJ/TotJ/KotOR eras were known to be quite powerful, with one notable example being Darth Nihilus' life devouring.
And in the case of The Silmarilliion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings, magical powers and immortality were all too common back in the days of Numenor's existence; alas, after Numenor sank to the watery abyss, the magic started to fade away, and immortality became nonexistent.
Who would have thought that sitting for hours each day in a room full of Sith Holocrons while being a force sensitive would have any negative side effects? The Jedi are surely not that great of screening for any kind of corruption or manipulation from people who study artifacts infused with the dark side, they really should have seen that one coming multiple times.
But for me, this is what i really like about the contruct of the Jedi. They are fundamentally flawed, but so is life itself and the challenge is to overcome ones flaws, its a nice little life lesson.
@UTubeFekUrself so true.
She was delusional, unable to understand that everything she hated about Meetra was really displeasure at her own willingness to do what was right.
She hid behind the rhetoric of proven fools, hypocrites and their dogma to dam her shame.
She had a stronger desire to be viewed as righteous and moral than she did to actually be righteous and moral. Something we see in the real world so often today.
Oh yeah. She’s a textbook example of how not to be a Jedi.
Yeah exactly.
And Vrook Lamar
@@tux75 Vrook's just a douche, not really evil. Don't get me wrong, I hate his guts. But he didn't straight up become a Sith in all but name, like Atris or Pong Krell.
@@KnightsRealm98 I'm not familiar with Vrook lamar could you explain why he's a douche?
yeahhh
Makes sense looking back on things that the 'reforms' pushed by Atris would be completely ossified in the Order by the time of Palpatine and be a large part of enabling Palpatine to take apart the order dogmatically. Weird how all the 'corrections' she made to what she saw as flaws would later on find ways to make even worse schisms..
Jedi and sith two parts of the same problem
Weird that the Jedi never noticed that falling to the Dark Side was almost completely unheard of for more than twenty thousand years until her reforms. Then, suddenly you have entire armies worth of Jedi, literally, falling to the Dark Side both in the Jedi Civil War and in the Great Galactic War and countless others over the proceeding millennia. Gee, almost like emotionally stunting everyone is a bad idea and emotional maturity is necessary. And that removing the student caste and slapping its name onto apprentices was a good idea. Oh, and of course basically dumping the excess so the entire order is dragged down by its own lack of numbers and completely crippled in both its ability to perform its duties, adapt to increasing populations and territories, and defend against any other group that _doesn't_ limit itself. Brilliant ideas. If you want to destroy the Jedi.
Me: Sees title
"You do know that Anakin Skywalker was directly involved with at least 7 whole genocides right?"
Yeah, but at least he wasn't an asshole about them
Why do the jedi have so may issues 😂
@@geetslys Might have something to do with being separated from their parents when their toddlers.
Or letting a crazy Sith Lord whisper in your hear for years
@@geetslys Maybe because it's way harder to good while doing bad is easier and convenient?
@@geetslys the lack of sex?
To be fair, a more proactive Jedi Order can be a good thing to go out there and help those that need it, but there needs to be a balance otherwise you become to battle-hungry and engrossed in combat that you fall to the Dark Side. Clearly, Atris's order was not the correct one by a long shot.
What about having multiple locations for the Jedi scatter throughout the galaxy to assist with peace keeping mission and diplomacy?
@@hackman669 I don't think that would be a good idea. After all, having the Jedi spread too thin is what allowed Exar Kunn to put his plan and betrayal into action without much opposition, and it was also because the Jedi were scattered throughout the galaxy that Order 66 went off so well.
However, I think having at least one or two extra locations to station Jedi outside of Courascant might be a good idea, so they have locations of the galaxy they can keep track of when something happens without having to wait for word to get to Courascant. So like one in the Mid-Rim and one in the Outer-Rim.
If atris had been able to continue her type of 'jedi teachings' they would have become more like the sith.
Ironic
Personally, I'd have the Jedi Order as nomadic. Travelling from one spaceport to the next in service to The Force and the Order. No attachments to any one planet at all.
@@zexalbrony4799 one snag: that reinforces the belief that Jedi are out of touch monks serving the elite
Pong Krell: I am the worst Jedi of all time
Atris: hold my blue milk
No, Krell is still worse.
@@demi-femme4821 at least krell knows that he's an asshole
Artis and Krell can hold the title together tbh
@@geetslys what about Mundi?
@@howdypardner9629 xd
So basically long story short, she was the reason why Anakin turn to the Darkside of the force but not fully directly.
Pretty much, cause without her attachment forbidden rule, maybe Yoda could have gave a better advice to Anakin than just learn to let go of what he fears to lose
@@chapkenobi9887 and sadly the order was her attachment just like Mace Windu, mmm, now what do I can that I can't remember oh yep, hypocrisy. Plus Revan would have called her out for s***, knowing what happened to his lover wife.
Qui Gon would have been the ideal teacher for Anakin but unfortunately he died before he could. I honestly think it was all fated to happen, the fall of the Jedi and the rise of Sideous was the will of the force
@@SevenPr1me
Always been a firm believer that Vader killing almost all the Jedi and then killing Palpatine and himself DID bring Balance. So the prophecy did come true.
@@Cure-Skywalker the clones and palpitine killed most of the jedi
If you ever wondered what the Sith Holocrons are whispering:
"We'd like to talk you about your cars extended warranty".....
How could you NOT fall to the Dark Side?!
LOL
What is up with that extended warranty meme?
@@SomeAngryGuy1997 there was a big "breach" of security at many of the big phone companies and user numbers went on the open market. People now use auto-dialers to try to scam others. A common one is extended car warranty. I get at least 4 calls a day with the B.S.
@@jrr7031 Ah shit, here we go again.
@@SomeAngryGuy1997 yea, its so prevelant it has become "meta" ? Idk if im using that word correctly, but....its funny because it true kinda thing.
Most of Atris' reforms were good ideas (especially limiting the amount of Padawans one Jedi could take), she was just bad at implementing them and refused to see the error of her ways.
Also, the fact that no one saw how these limits actively impeded on their abilities in all those 4000 years really speaks to how narrow minded the Jedi became, unwilling to break from traditions.
She also came across as kind of arrogant in her views. Seems to be a problem with the Jedi when they get stuck in their ways for too long.
@@STG44musikmeister It's always the curse of the Jedi, if you look at canon history.
(1) They start well-meaning
(2) They create ideals.
(3) Ideals become tradition.
(4) They become complacent and dogmatic
(5) They become arrogant and passively self-aggrandizing, refusing to believe they could be wrong ("Revan is dead"/"We must destroy you, Exile"/"The Sith hasn't been seen in 2000 years, Qui-Gon")
(6)Their arrogance leads to conflict that tears their Order apart
(7) Their Order barely survives the aftermath.
(8) The survivors rebuild the Order with the intent to be 'better', again another well-meant objective.
(9) See point 1, rinse and repeat
Well yeah. She cared more for the concept than the actual plans. People like her have good ideas, but no real road map to complete them. She was an idealist, but you really need a Realist or Pessimist paired with them, to see it put in practice properly.
Well not really. Some of those reforms have to be scrapped (for example the padawan limit since for rebuilding the order you might have no other choice if there’s so few Knights, never mind masters around)
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
I think an appropriate quote. So determined was she to snuff out the dark that eventually it's all she saw. And that is when the dark side has you. It's that that same fear that would eventually lead to the downfall of the Jedi order at the end of the Clone Wars.
You know they use it in baldurs gate. It’s a beautiful quote from nietzche. It even scares me when i play my character and even in myself. The fact that we all have a monster that can be unleashed for greater power at the cost of control and will.
@@BlackDiamond2718 I did not. I've been meaning to play those games.
@@vocalcalibration8033 i would even buy it for you just so you try them. Baldurs gate 1 is fantastic because it reveals your story. Then baldurs gate 2 tears into your core over the choices you can make. All the while villains test your soul at every turn. Brilliantly written villains except siege of dragonspear. Focus on baldurs gate 1 and 2 plus throne of bhaal.
Which is why introspection and humility are such fundamentally important skills to develop. Without them you start to wrack up the mistakes and become too proud to ever learn from them. In the end, you become a parody of what you wanted to become in the first place. An arrogant, self-righteous judge who only spreads evil. (There's a Frollo reference there somewhere.)
I could literally hear the air quotes when you said they became “good friends” 😂
Oh Lawd... I despised Atris in KOTOR II. Ridiculously self-righteous and condescending. She's just asking to be punched in the face.
The fact she dresses in all-white is just one example of how self-righteous she is.
In her defense, dressing in all white is apart of her Echani culture
TBH so is Kreia
Funny, as "Atris" seems to derive from ancient greek "ater", which means "black"
Gamer Boy so basically a typical jedi🤣
@@Slimo74Her very name is steeped in hypocrisy!
It was her to didn’t want Jedi to form attachments. Her fault Anakin fell to the dark side.
She made the rule. Anakin still had a choice not to fall.
Every time I watch RoTS, and I see Anakin talking to Yoda about his dreams of Padme dying, and Yoda says "Rejoice in her death, let attachments go..." I think, "Those Jedi had it coming"
No. As Obi-Wan said, he did that himself. He wanted to be a man-child and wanted to both have his cake and eat it and was too cowardly to leave the Order for Padme and too weak to not have pursued Padme in the first place. He was not a bad person. But he was a failure as a person.
It's a shame how swtor didn't pay enough homage to the exile other than just a few cameos...
Hmm they did bring Revan Back for some time and there is also Malek doing his sithy thing in SWTOR soo. What I do not get is Kotor occurs before SWOTOR, but we do not see Atris' policies implemented in the Jedi Storylines as much as I thought they should have been. Again I may be incorrect as it has been sometime since I went over these topics.
@@skyquester The consule was small since weren't a lot of masters left due to what Malgus did. So they had to go back to their own ways. Since the romance thing was in place if you played through the Jedi Consular's storyline where you master had an affair which was forbiddened. Even your romances are seen as tabooish as a Jedi even if they value your power and loyality a bit more.
@@skyquester Well, the Jedi Exile and his/her companions are the ones who rebuilt the Jedi Order, so there’s no way they’d be quite as dogmatic as Atris was.
@@skyquester Wtf are you on about? Malak wasn't in swtor... Revan killed him in kotor...
I mean it does take place a full 300 years later and the Exile had died long before the Sith Empire even joined the war, so that doesn’t seem all too weird to me.
Who's the voice behind this incredibly BITTER "Jedi"? She sounds perfect.
Elizabeth Rider, according to the wiki.
Yeah the voice suits very well to the character
@@Enkidone Thank you!
Honestly, I thought she was voiced by Grey Delisle-Griffin at first. That woman knows her bitter, if not a bit insane, characters.
@Nate T what's wrong with being 40? It's happens to everyone eventually.
*Anyone armed with a slug thrower*
“An elegant weapon for a more civilized time, eh? Well guess what? Times have changed."
Oh, sure, tell that to the Jedi who ate melted lead, suckers!
Name one?
I don't know, those Jedi I eliminated on BFII's Operation Knightfall via the Clone Engineer... then again, that might have been a laser shotgun.
Channel scriptwriter here - this is actually a fandom myth. The molten lead thing only exists in canon (in legends the slugs just vaporized) and it notably isn't effective in the few examples of its use. The power of a Jedi doesn't come from the lightsaber, but from the Force, and the Force provides many ways to avoid incoming projectiles. Slugthrowers had about as good a chance as blasters against Jedi.
But there were some effective ways to kill Jedi - stay tuned for a video to that effect soon-ish ;)
Texas Intensifies
Man it gets to me how many times the Sith push the Jedi to near extinction just to either get lazy or just plain stupid right at the end.
Hubris tends to be the downfall of many a sith. Even Sidious
There can not be dark without light. It's Ying and Yang. You can't completely destroy the Jedi. They are the symbol of the light side of the force, and the force itself is in flux without a 'beacon' on both camps
*All this KOTOR talk has honestly brought me so much joy in life. Found my old copies of 1+2 a few months ago. Gunna have to replay the old games!!🙏🏼*
If you play as a Male Exile she has a feelings for you (she is not the only one).
Not just male exile. It is just more obvious (especially if you romance Brianna).
dude, literally everyone with tits had a hard on for the male exile
except kreia ofc
@@sharangcool Idk they had a fairly intimate connection...
@@sharangcool if Kreia was 40 years younger she would of been simping for the exile with all those sexy ass force wounds he had going on
I keep forgetting that Atris was a contemporary of Kreia's. Atris' fall to the Dark Side must have been much more recent and subtle than that of Kreia, for them to appear so different in age.
Atris looks like she's 40 to 55, while kreia is like 70+.
@@dtxspeaks268 Don't forget that the Light Side of the Force often sustain Jedi beyond otherwise natural limits. While I highly doubt Atris is as old as Kreia, she could be much older than her youthful appearance suggests. Even at 55yrs of age, that would still make Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma within her lifetime. Kreia was an older Padawan or a young Knight at the time.
So basically a dogmatic strict isolated disconnected religious order with magic powers tends to produce some evil ass bastards
@Omni-Man how many people like to use religion to escape that problems sometimes you work and you create sense sometimes just to make demons
@Omni-Man "Anakin turning is not the jedi's fault, it's his. People need to hold themselves accountable"
Weirdly, some fans seem to forget that
@@james501001 a main point is that religious fanaticism ,combine whith of lack of self accountability makes for a whole lot of trouble I mean look at our history
@Omni-Man There's a simple argument that shows morality doesn't originate in religions: If it did, we wouldn't find anything in religion to be morally problematic.
@@harmonyovabraxas5556 finally someone who gets me
Basically atris is the Danzo of the jedi, the core reason that mostly everything went wrong in her time. She essentially sacrifices an entire planet in the name of "stopping the sith" but really came out to nothing and but losing the very people needed to fight the threat. Considering her history, it's hard to tell how much of her actions was derived from dark side corruption or shear incompetence.
You mean like Danzo from Naruto I assume?
@@jediknightjameslunagazer7632 Yes, they are referring to Danzo Shimura. Which is a fair comparison. The main difference is, that while Danzo did what he did out of a desire to protect the Leaf Village, he had moments of genuine malicious intent. The framing of Yahiko and the original Akatsuki comes to mind. Atris just made bad decisions, Danzo made evil ones.
@@austinkersey2445 Funny enough, I consider Vrook to be more like Danzo than Atris.
@@Vigriff That is also a pretty good comparison. Now that I think about it they both embody traits that Danzo possessed.
@@austinkersey2445 Danzo did what he did out of self-loathing and fear because he saw himself as a coward and was overcompensating by being a ruthless machiavellian Gestapo type who refused to even consider more diplomatic or open-ended problems to solutions because those didn't let him live out his fantasy that he was a hard-nosed realist.
She is the old republic version of ki adi mundi, I mean her interpretation of the jedi code was just too extreme, this is an example of what happens if you take things too far
2:15 thank you Atris for creating the galactic empire.
I love the picture of her surrounded by sith holocrons with sith eyes and messed up hair
God help us if Atris time jumped to the Clone Wars and found out Anakin Skywalker was married.
Just imagine what happened if Sidious ever met her. I think that he would have made her his apprentice. Instead of Maul Qui Gon and Obi Wan would fight her at the end of episode I.
@@danmarusan2878 And she would absolutely own them both in that battle. Only Surik would have been capable of defeating her.
Or that Obi Wan has a thing for Satine.
She would be angry-nun-Jedi incarnate...
She doesn't even need to go that far into the future. Satale and Jace. Revan and Bastila
The EU really did love trying to turn the Jedi into a bunch of arrogant hypocrites.
Everything in SW does this
Mostly in the old republic. Luke's Jedi Order was the best.
It's real life commentary. Every organization with a well-meant intention at the start, when left unchecked, eventually becomes bureaucratic, at best, and dogmatic, at worst.
See: religious organizations.
The prequels also did do that but in a more subtle way.
I remember her from the Revan novel, she hated him the most
I love meetra and atris's dynamic, a true portrayal of what a Jedi should stand for vs what the Jedi can and have become
I feel like Atris had a good excuse for the anger and pain she felt. The number of times planets around her got crispy. I'd have a complex myself. Great video. New fan of your work.
What’s with the Jedi CONSTANTLY dooming the entire Galaxy?
Not sure if its canon or legends at this point but, there was a time when the Jedi and Sith were one and the same. I believe they were called the Je'daii Order. But once the Dark Jedi became bitter and wanted power, they broke off from the order and fought. Even though the Dark Jedi were exiled later to become Sith, few would still be corrupted by the Dark like Atris. Its not really about the Jedi endangering the galaxy. Its more so natural greed for power. Some people can ignore it but others can't.
@@Th3og0ny That I believe was around Ajunta Pall's time, Xendor merely wanted Bogan to be respected and the leaders of the Je'daii at the time didn't like that. All because of the immense stupidity of the Kwa and their senseless need to uplift species before their proper time which led to the rise of the Rakatan Infinite Empire to this point.
Well, when you are good at something, play to your strengths ;)
With the Jedi being removed from the day to day of the galaxy (Sort of like Buddhist monks) they fail to grasp the emotions of people, they almost fear emotions and instead act almost on logic, which never works out well, i sense similarities between "Emotional Numbing" and certain Jedi beliefs/approaches
@@Tcrumpen Jedi act neither logically or morally. They act according to the Jedi Code, which is far from being logical or moral. Revan after the events of KOTOR, as well as post-Endor Luke (In legends continuity), those were force-users who acted logically & morally.
Well-written, powerful female characters, eh?
If only Disney had looked through the old EU instead of decanonising it
Well Disney is now taking ideas abd characters from EU and the 6 movies since their original ideas (TLJ, resistance and most of Rebels) sucked ass.
Plus who's to say KOTOR 1 and 2 and Republic commando aren't canon? They dont contradict anything that's in the 6 movies or TCW or the other shows and games that I know of.
@@dtxspeaks268 yeah, it's good that they're starting to use some of the established material
As for KOTOR, it seems as if Disney are acknowledging it, definitely a good move
@@347Jimmy but at the same time, are they truly acknowledging it or are they making their own version of it canon?
@@347Jimmy tbf 40s and 50s age range isnt youthful, despite people in those ranges having the possibility to look young and/or be fit
@@dtxspeaks268 And to be fair Rey and Kylo Ren were bad knockoffs of Jacen and Jaina Solo.
I can definitely say that Atris is up there of being the worse Jedi or just being a dark Jedi since she's mostly responsible for the mass genocide of a whole planet.
I love the fact that she had fallen so quietly and completely yet no one on the Council could see it
So basically, I learned that Atris is the main reason Sidious's Jedi Purge was so successful. Makes sense.
Yeah, without her the clone legions would have been quickly annihilated by their Jedi generals. And, well, I mean, the Separatists also would've been curbstomped pretty much immediately and it wouldn't really be called a "war" in any fairness. But, that's beside the point. The Sith/Jedi of old were literally referred to as godlike.
I think it's fairly clear that Atris had romantic infatuation over Surik. This conflicted with her traditionalist mindset of Jedi not having relationships and also compounded the frustrations Atris felt about wanting to follow Surik but also feeling bound to oppose her.
do you realize that Atris was the massive supporter of Non Attachment in the first place. Up to her, it was common place for Jedi to have families. Blame her for No-no on Attachment, Romance and Family.
@@DeathScepter I do, yes, I actually think that's her version of repressing herself, and led to more of her self destructive tendencies. Incidentally if you choose to play as a male version of the Jedi Exile, some discussion with the Echani Handmaiden Brianna reveals that Atris had harbored feelings for the Exile, and the Exile's decision to leave the Jedi for the Mandalorian Wars was in fact the trigger for her eventual fall to the dark side.
totally, she had a crush on her but meetra just ignored that.
I guess she shouldnt have ignored her inner gay x3
Funnily enough she ruined any chance she might have had with Surik by being so keen on banning attachments, opposing the war and later trying to get her executed
Not saying if she went with Surik that they would have had a romantic relationship, but at least she would be close to her hero instead of pushing her away and resenting it for the rest of her life
She only made herself miserable
Never really saw her as evil just misguided with the corruption of the sith holocrons and her own self doubt
Her guilt and and feeling of betrayal to someone she admired ate at her psyche for years as she sat alone with artifacts that whispered contradictions in her ears 24/7. I'm surprised she didn't pull a Darth *forgot his name* (go mad) and start destroying the relics and artifacts she collected.
That's what I always loved about the legends universe, there was depth in morality and the Force wasn't a simple sliding scale. The Force was indeed alive with a will unto it's self that would tug on anyone who could sense it pulling them to make choices that would either bring them closer to the light or the dark side. The Force didn't care which the simple act of making those choices feed it as that was it's goal which is why any force user could use any force power or ability it was just easier to use it if you aligned with the side it was formed in. Kreia figured out the Force had a will and affected sith and jedi alike to become closer to their respective sides of the force and hated it for it. Which makes sense as that knowledge would make the morality of both effective null in the ideological debate between the two. The only real choice you had was to not lean on the force or follow it but remain balance not giving in to what the force wanted. You didn't get that level of depth in what the force is and what it really could be in the movies which is part of the massive list of reasons the new disney star wars is so crap. -_-
_"Why this Jedi was the Most EVIL in the Order's History"_
Because she stole my lightsaber!
I love that she’s all in white like an angel
Atris: the most evil
Jorus C'Baoth: Doubt
(C'Baoth the original was awful.)
Yeah, what an arrogant sod.
Not all of the handmaidens were half-sisters. They were all full-blooded sisters except Brianna, who was their half-sister.
So from what I understand and with my knowledge of psychology, Atris became so angry with Mitra Surik (apologies for the misspelling) and her conflicted thoughts on her decision with how the Jedi Order should have handled the Mandalorian Wars and the Sith that she developed Schizophrenia. How ironic
Considering how deep she sunk in the dark side with her holocrons you might as well call it sithzophrenia
@@ale-xsantos1078 That's not what makes her schizophrenic, it was her believing so deeply that she was still serving the light. Her reality was morphed so badly.
Im aware, I was making a pun about how being surrounded by evil artifacts was deteriorating her already declining mental condition further
@@ale-xsantos1078 Oh my apologies, I could not see that it was a pun. Good joke though
No problem! x3
I find it interesting that sith like Kreia and the Inquisitor from SWTOR(if you choose to) teach better Jedi than many in the Jedi who trained more dangerous Sith than average, Examples: Vader, Scourge, Jacen solo(legends). If they do another run of Visions this concept should be an episode.
Probably because they are far less rigid and narrow-minded. Not to mention that their own experiences with the idiocy and self-destructive aspects of both orders give them a sense of wisdom that Jedi who were trained traditionally often lack.
*Darth Maul:* In order to beat your enemy,
you must understand them. Learn from them.
Even practice their belief system. 😏
*Ezra:* Yeah.. I don’t think so. 🤨
*Atris:* Ooooooooooooooookaaaaaaay!!!!! 🤩
I bet she's got a nude pic of meetra somewhere in her mind
Ah the jedi failing time and time again because when they find something litterly leaking evil they immediately put it somewhere to study or build a temple right next to it
"From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" -Anakin Skywalker
The Jedi of the high republic seem to be what the order would look like had atris' teachings were allowed to continue
The dark side always believes itself into believing it’s good, it never starts with a overnight transformation, it always starts with a small Nitch here and there.
I've played and beaten KOTOR one and 2 probably over 30 times. Sounds like you have as well Great video! Kudos on your knowledge of the star wars universe. 👏
Darth triea is one of my favourite characters in star wars her knowledge and her lightsaber configuration is just awesome
She's always struck me as the Star Wars equivalent of Saruman.
A little fix: Kreia did not intentionally kill the jedi, she consumed their force powers because she wanted them to see the universe "through the eyes of the exile". They were so attached to the force, that losing it meant their death, while the loss of the force didn't for the Exile. They possibly died understanding that they were wrong. If you spare Atris, she then tells that she deserves to be exiled herself. Well at least in the end she admits of her fall to the dark side.
I always felt like there was more to learn of Atris in KOTOR 2 wasn’t the best at following the dialogue to its ultimate conclusion wish I had now.. sounds like a good reason to replay
10:00: What relatable words, from an incoherent voice of wisdom and lies.
11:28: My bets on Vergere being the Traya of the Darth Plagueis-Yuuzhan Vong War era.
12:01: Anyone did something different in their playthroughs?
Atris she’s the one who brought the reforms like the no attachment rule, or the taking babies rule that corrupted the Jedi order
And for a short while, her reforms were banned until the Rusaan reformation it ended up corrupting them again, turning them into slaves putting back those reforms that turned them into such
“It is such a quiet thing… to fall, but far more terrible is to admit it.” Love that line from Kreia.
I always thought Atris needed a good man in her life to take care of her needs 😂
Well now I can’t look at my light saber the same way ever again on my new kotor 2 playthrough.
"You have all these rules and you think they'll save you."
That woman was just so moody. Don’t know why I even spared her.
Another well researched and produced vid, well done.
I didnt realise who I was watching, and I thought "Hmm, Eckhart's Ladder has a nasty cold"
2:03 Ironically most of these reforms lead to order 66 years later
This video: Attis is the most evil Jedi ever.
Pong Krell: hold my beer
This how amazing kotor is because of the story, it makes me wonder what other games could’ve been good had I not skipped the cut scenes.
Maybe it was no coincidence that the rules she implemented into the Jedi order we're to limit both the number of Jedi being born *AND* trained. If I we're a Sith Lord working within the Jedi order itself, those are definitely the kind of restrictions I would place within the group I had planned on fighting & destroying.
I can understand the one apprentice rule though as it would allow more focus on the student and you wouldn’t have to juggle two or more Padawans that might be struggling or have vastly different needs.
But if done correctly perhaps a Jedi Knight/Master could juggle two Padawans
She was responsible for the bombardment on Telos, I didn't know that
I should add that Atris not only has lured Meetra, but also spread rumors, that Meetra was last of the Jedi, for sith to chase her.
Also Atris had never taught a padawan, as Exile states, a minor detail, which becomes more serious in light of Atris' wish to create her own version of Jedi Order. And the plan was really grand - Meetra lures sith, battles them, weakens them, and then Atris steals all the spotlight by crushing those, who were unlucky to survive the encounter with Meetra.
Atris really is the worst. The most Karen of Jedi.
I believe that Atris was in love with Surik (they may have been lovers but that isn't important to the story) that's why she reacted so badly to Surik leaving for the Mando war and this caused her change to the DS.
*leave her with Sith Holocrons*'
Dark side Exile "It may be difficult to secure your release."
I want to see a history of Nico Okarr. That guys is a beast
Atris was clearly not in the right mind and unable to see reality at times. Called herself the last Jedi knowing there were others out there. She wasn't competent either, as she made plans to rebuild the Jedi but never acted to do so. That's the problem with the Jedi in her era, they always planned or mediated and never acted in time. At least most of the time. They were right in that the Jedi that went into war would fall to the dark side, true. But they abandoned their duties out of being too cautious when it was their responsibility to protect the innocent.
I always wanted the Jedi Order to evolve to be more like Gray Jedi. Less restrictions like forbidding emotional attachment and certain sith powers but still want to upload peace and justice in the galaxy. Too many jedi fell to the dark side because the order is too rigid.
Behold Darth Karen
Nah, Atris isn’t quite a Karen. True Karens never show a single shred of guilt or remorse for their actions, while Atris does.
Darth Karen has more in common with palpatine.
The Mace Windu of The Old Republic
Clinging to old and outdated beliefs
Shunning and banishing anyone who dared thought otherwise
Refused to believe her ways caused more damage then good
Revan and Luke{Legends content} were right to view change as growth, not dark side
10:01 swear you could make a top 10 star wars quotes and fill it with nothing but Kreia and only the ignorant would argue against it.
Atris desperately needed Meetra to be wrong, to roll over and *admit* she was wrong, so that Atris could then have that sense of validation from being the one to "fix" Meetra.
For the greater good, of course. Not at all because Atris had any kind of attachment to Meetra herself, perish the thought.
Would've been sick if the 2nd time you fight Atris - she has the exiles lightsaber, but she bled it red
Imagine how much evil could be averted if a powerful Jedi just decides to step back "because it's too hard, let someone else do it" instead ... fall, trying.
Love this video dude this was pretty 🤩 cool 😎
Atris and Darth Gravid should swap places
2:00 so it’s her we have to thank for everything awful about the Jedi- and to think I wanted to and managed to “redeem her” in KOTOR II
...So, anyone think Atris had a crush on the Exile, regardless of gender?
Also, does anyone hope Jolee and Juhani didn't go to Katarr?
I imagine they hid out in Jolee's hut in the Shadowlands during the Dark War and helped Meetra's companions and Bastila rebuild the order after the events of Kotor 2
According to context clues, it seems Jolee survived by hiding (maybe) and Juhani died on Katarr. I personally think it would be weird writing if they had these characters everyone loved and just said we killed them off.
@@tux75 SWTOR moment
Lol, I was hoping for someone to bring it up.
The headcanon that Atris having feelings for the Exile (both as male and female) could work *if* both are around the same age (explains why Atris felt so betrayed when Meetra Surik went to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, thus developing resentment and hatred towards him/her, probably creating the "no attachment" rule for the Jedi Order because of her emotional attachment to Meetra leading to this supposed "betrayal" she felt, and ultimately falling to the dark side).
But personally I feel that the relationship between Atris and Meetra is more akin to Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship but with reversed circumstances, where the master instead of the apprentice fell to the dark side because of their issues with their respective attachments.
So basically she's your typical crazy, possessive ex
The Jedi order becomes pretty hilarious, especially in the context of this video, after you realize what Lucas based the Jedi Order off of lmao.
So Anakin committing an untold number of war crimes is ok……
Atris is a perfect example of the failing of the Jedi, how they become slowly corrupt in their own self righteous dogma and blind to that very corruption. She's a great example of why the Force spawns Sith to purge the Jedi again and again.
She doesn't seem so evil to me, in the end she understood her error and came back to the light side.
That’s like saying Darth Vader isn’t evil because he redeemed himself
@@HumanB312 I know but my point is that the title says that she was the most evil Jedi in history but she doesn't seem that evil because she redeemed herself. To me a Jedi who was truly evil was Jorus C'Baoth, to me he acted more as a Sith than a Jedi.
@@samuelebincoletto637 I understand that the title is just click bait
Real reason, because she wouldn't give us back our lightsaber.
@Geetsly's can u make a video on darth momin, he is canon but his view on the dark side is very interesting