It's interesting how the meta shifted so much even after the balance changes stopped. This game might be the second eternal-lasting game in the Smash series after all.
Joker didn't really fall off. He just got naturally mellowed out/balanced as everybody else started figuring out what their characters can do punish wise.
Which was dramatically helped by the nerfs he got, which made holding on to Arsenne way harder against the onslaught of perfect punish games that'll either chew through his meter or edgeguard Joker.
Joker went from Top 2 right behind Palutena to arguably a top 15 character. With the nerfs that he's gotten and when everyone started to figure the character out, he went from being one of the most feared characters in the entire game to a rather niche pick due to his high skill floor especially when other top tiers are much easier to play than Joker.
@@Gurkan790 He's actually one of the most well represented characters at top level. Not as "niché" as you think. He was the best pre-quarantine and he's probably t10-15 now. The nerfs were a slap on the wrist at most (they were needed). It's mainly just meta shift. Still a superb character with all the tools needed to succeed.
Nah the pandemic murdered him. He wasn’t that good online so leo basically dropped him for Byleth, and he’s never been able to return to his original peaks since then
For Roy, the big reason is because meta shifts. The waves of DLC gave him four new bad matchups (Joker, Aegis, Steve, and Kazuya), and not only did many of those characters become meta, but many of the meta characters that Roy did well against (Palu, Wolf, ZSS, Lucina, Young Link, Wario, etc), even though they're still solid, aren't anywhere close to as prominent. Roy's good matchups became less prominent in the meta while his bad matchups became more prominent in the meta
I feel like Protobanham's hiates and eventual retirement hurt the character far more than people realize. Even with his Min Min, his Lucina was extremely strong with very little holes in his game plan, and edge guarding arguably better than someone like Sonix. Watching him against Light, Riddles's Terry, Tweek, and more made the character look an entire tier higher than she was. It helps that since Min Min covered a lot, his Lucina was mainly used in situations where it was most beneficial to do so. This was more common than one would expect though, since Min Min is such a volatile character. Even if we don't count his Min Min, no Lucina has come anywhere remotely close to Protobanham. Even the best Lucina we have in Mr. E pales in comparison. Lucina was hurt by all the factors mentioned badly, but I feel like losing Protobanham and not having any equivalent rep for her hurt arguably more.
Proto also carried the Min Min meta until his hiatus, but at least that character had Doramigi emerge and pick up the slack afterwards. Lucina doesn't really have any equivalent and likely never will.
When Proto - the best Lucina player - retires, the character also loses the best player who can push her beyond her potential. I doubt if we ever have another Lucina main matches Proto 😢
What about zss? She was quite literally considered top tier back in 2019/early 2020 and has now fallen so low she’s barely within to top 30 of the lastest tier list
It really is the nerfs she got coupled with many of her hitboxes just not working properly. Even though Marrs competes with her to this day, occasionally, I cant even count how many times someone has fallen out of her up smash in a last stock last hit game 5 scenerio
She got nerfed very hard. The up b nerf made a once always consistent reaction one of the most comital, risky moves in the game and to top it all off, characters fall out of it. Oh and now it has a slower start up time. So even though flip jump is a good move it’s no substitute for a proper punish out of shield. They literally nerfed the fun right out of the character and it took a long time for ultimate players to admit that maybe it was a touch too much. Lots of visceral hatred against the character because, let’s be honest, she was good. Her neutral is slightly worse because of nair nerfs. The only nerf that felt necessary was the bury mechanic. Idk, it always felt unwarranted to me considering some of the players complaining already piloted very good characters like aegis, olimar, Steve g&w etc.
@@Berettadv marss barely plays the game competitively and still doing good recently agaisnt miya light zomba random steve players etc. the character is just a lot more balanced right now and its a good thing. people got sick of the zss dominance back then for a good reason.
@@johnmarkson1990 lol ain’t just Marss. Lots of fantastic Japanese zss mains dropped the character too for a good reason. I mean hell sheik is a balanced character as well but the effort to reward is not there and I’m willing to bet money it ain’t going to change anytime soon. There is a reason why this character disappeared in the meta for what has it been like almost 3 years now?
Videos like these are always interesting, even as a melee player. There's something inherently captivating about learning about the development of a meta in any game
As a Lucina main, yeah, thats the story. Great in the first meta in which most swordies were bad (Cloud, Corrin, Marth, Pit) or were different in their gameplan (Roy and Shulk). Ike was the closest to her but she had better mobility and recovery. However, once more swordies were buffed and added, Lucina became an alternative, and her lack of an X factor really hurt her in the meta. She needs to win neutral every time to win. If she can not do that, then she loses.
so many top players also got shadow banned during the pandemic, a lot of them being character specialists. we just don’t have the same players/ characters competing anymore. kinda crazy
Game could be so much more healthy if Sonic , Steve , Rob and G&W with some other characters get a bit of a "nerfed" and just buff the low tiers and some mid tiers like very small buffs.
@@henryreturns1397 well fair point if I had to nerf said three you said, I will just take from spin dash it's entire I frames, reduce game and watch's air mobility a bit, take from Steve the glitches he can do with blocks, reduce the damage of his weapons say stone do 1.1, iron 1.2 and diamond 1.3, decrease the damage of rain and make his up tilt/air slower. I am not gonna enter to buffs but one character you didn't mention kazuya should got a nerf of make his jump squat frame 10 and make it that he can only cancel his double jump with specials
Nothing lasts forever. Plus, even if Ultimate got another balance patch, you can’t please everyone. I’m fine with where the game is at and anticipate for Smash 6 in two years.
They fell off because the best players stopped playing them. After all this time, Smash fans are still judging how good a character is by how good they player is. Thought this would've stopped by now
For real, it makes no sense. I always say, if Sonix decided to pursue a medical degree tomorrow and quits smash, within weeks people will start saying “damn, Sonic fell off, people figured out how to counter him” when in reality, nothing changed Obviously not all characters are equal, but I think people get into the nitty-gritty of tiers in a ridiculous way. I think a character like Megaman really isn’t that different than someone like Snake in terms of viability, but saying that would be blasphemous cause it contradicts the tier list which just reflects which players were doing well at the time
I think when an entire fanbase, demographic, etc., of people do a certain thing, it has less to do with any particular errors on their part and more to do with human nature. For example, if MKLeo stopped playing Joker, we'd see almost no top level Joker play and a lot of counters to Joker. So we're being fed evidence of Joker being countered, and not much evidence of Joker succeeding. It's intuitive to at least get the sense that Joker might've just been a fraud the entire time and MKLeo is just busted as a player. And in some ways it's kinda true that that's how the meta itself might develop. With nobody advancing the Joker meta, we'd see a kind of stagnation (or even atrophying) of that character's skill ceiling. It'd work exactly like a dying language: nobody's using it, you know there's more to the language than we all remember, but in practice, we just aren't seeing it. In practice, other languages are being used in its place, and the language is less accessible. You'd still have a full language, with dictionaries and stuff, but if nobody's actually speaking that language perfectly then you're basically talking about TAS theory. Similarly, Joker would kind of be a dead character with some mythical potential in theory but clear weaknesses in practice. (Obvs I'm just using Joker as an example, I know MKLeo still plays him. Although I guess maybe we've gotten better at countering Joker than improving as Joker since the first tier list and that's why he fell off. Nobody's scared of him anymore.)
Literally what happened with cloud. I still remember he was considered mid tier and bad until they started winning tournaments with him now all of a sudden he's top tier. Same thing with diddy(fun fact diddy was named after diddy kong) corrin, byleth, bayonetta, I could go on all day
I love how all the characters you mentionned (or put as a quick example like Pitchu or Palu) are litterally half of France's top 10's mains, the "all rounder with good neutral" is very present in here, you can still feel the impact of Gluto's old "mongoose neutral" on the french tops.
What happens with these ""ex top tiers"" is the best rep retires/stops playing and people just start saying stuff. And it's the ones who were going to complain about the character regardless. Lucina and Wolf are still very good imo. Especially Wolf. But until they see a top 8 Ik ppl won't be convinced.
In those 2 examples who do you consider the best representative because I only see a character who most people stopped playing him and barely hanging in there thanks to jakal and another who their best representative realized the limits of the character and even if he could comeback , he instead would be a Steve/min min dual main , also just making top 8 one time it’s not gonna cut it anymore , the player has to make a name for themselves specially when most characters in ultimate have managed to top 8 at majors and the best way to represent a character strength it’s being top 50 at least multiple seasons i feel
@@lokks2130 i mean , Isnt that how you filter out gimmicks vs true strength ? Like I’m not saying these characters are gimmicks but you just need to look around you and the volatile meta of ultimate mus , also there’s a lot of characters who have different stories during the game and it’s far from solved but I’m saying what I said because these were popular and popular = can potentially reach their peaks faster / have a fan base that can adapt and discuss changes in the meta / counter play , of course im gonna question these characters who were prevalent before because of these reasons and also I got a different opinion , it’s not because they have fallen off the only reason , so we are just here to discuss views like any other site
@@lokks2130 and like i said ouch it’s really good but it’s not part of the current top heavy level and jakal is but it’s also hanging in there as the most relevant representation, proto now mains Steve / min min
The other weakness of wolf that makes him suffer is that his grounded moves aren’t threatening. If he had fox/Falco down tilt I think he would be even more versatile with a stronger mix up and combo game. Since he has almost strictly single hit moves and likes to go for aerials it becomes pretty easy to parry and punish as the player base becomes stronger.
@@lokks2130 bro his tilts don’t start combos. That’s what I mean. He has good kill power with them at higher percents but it’s a pretty underwhelming neutral win for him. His smash attacks have plenty of startup where if you’re getting hit by them it’s probably a mistake you’re making. Down tilt and up tilt are meh. And you fall out of f tilt at max range which is the way you want to use it because it’s basically a sword move.
@@michaelevans6485 The tilts don't combo, but his _ground moves_ set up for tech chases that lead to the same strings/kills. So I disagree that they're non threatening. Wolf gets a big reward for any mix-up he hits. U-smash low profiles, d-smash kills early and is good for tech chases/ledgetrap. F-smash prob the worst one, but it's still safer than it should be. He doesn't have the best Smash attacks but they're far from the worst. "Start-up" in a vacuum only goes so far practically.
I said lucina was overrated almost day one of ultimate. The character has a few glaring weaknesses and no x factor that even most mid and low tiers have. People used to say my opinion was crazy but here we are.
I do think that joker "falling off" was pretty overblown, he is still obnoxiously powerful with Arséne and his projectiles are super powerful with great damaging normals without Arséne, but yeah he was not exactly no. 1 material, but I'd argue he's no. 9 over Diddy Kong if played optimally. Tldr joker never actually fell off, he was just overblown because he was overtuned on release
Joker wasn’t overtuned in release. As strong Arsene is, the nerf for it actually reduced his weaknesses in disadvantage. And down-gun, as good as it was, was always a risky option with plainly obvious blind spots. I would instead say the Devs are oddly inconsistent on what is unbalanced and balanced, since pre-patched down-gun existed in a game with Min-Min, Steve, GNW, and characters with ridiculously strong recoveries. It was like nerf ZSS’s up-b in the game with GNW up-b. They were too reactive on characters like Joker and ZSS despite how small their player bases are and how there were no -2/-3 match ups from them, only for them to buff characters to be that way or introduced them in FP2. It frankly was a mistake no matter how it is sliced.
I recently bought Kazuya and Steve and fought them as level 9 CPUs. And I immediately hated them, their CQ options are absolute planet busting and the only real counter I found is zoning tools like Mii Gunner/Samus and Wolf's Blaster. And even then their still a pain to deal with...
As someone who plays wolf. I get that feeling of a generalist falling off. Whenever I'm in a match there's always a moment when I think 'if I was playing x I could do this better'
Without having watched the video yet here’s my guess as to the answer. “They were maimed by someone who was built different and who single-handedly made them top tier so when that person swapped or dropped off the whole character fell off” And “They were easy to master quickly or had fundamentals that transferred over from other games people had skill in, but weren’t necessarily the best characters outside that and when everyone had time to master the weirder characters they became less comparatively broken.”
At the start of Ultimate I was hoping to main Wolf and have R.O.B as a secondary. In some twisted way the student became the master. Will always be thankful for Arm Rotor's buffs tho.
Since Joker is still very good, I wish you'd covered Palutena instead. This character is still very good, too, but nowhere near the heights that Joker has reached even recently.
Thank you or mentioning Palutena! I was thinking about her and was so confused. Players swear she’s so great even after nerfs (which I agree with) but I just don’t know why people aren’t doing good with her? I’m a Palutena main and still think she’s good so not seeing her relevant by any really high tier players is just odd to me.
@Valid644 If I had to guess, it's the same issue as previously Joker when Leo dropped him (aka great character with few reps). But Leo picked up Joker again so not relevant anymore. Palutena is great, but she isn't played by too many top players anymore. Chag (Mexico), Chase and Lui$ (California), Gen (NY), Raflow (France) and a few others use Palu but none have won majors in the last few years. She has great representation but no major tournament wins. So people think she fell off. But she is absolutely still a great character. Chase makes Palu look broken in Coinbox when he used to enter those events. Ditto Lui$ who is still great as well. Chag has been doing well at off line events with Palu. Raflow is great in Europe.
This is what I have been feeling about all this characters , it’s obvious that if X character it’s struggling to get consistent results doesn’t matter the peak , that something it’s happening with that character , specially ones that had a lot of representation early on because that means more popularity = X character meta develops faster to the point it may peak and there’s a lot of not obvious details that only top level players will understand , so it’s nice to see vars sit and think about the role and strategies of these characters ; giving it a second thought , wolf barely hanging in there thanks to Jakal , proto now it’s not even playing lucina anymore ( he knows ) , etc.
I think what also happened to PT was that a lot of meta characters outplay them. Being a jack of all trades type of character, there's not many characters that PT just wins against and there's a lot of figuring out what mon to play because of different playstyles/your playstyle/switching doesn't cause advantage. Look at the top played characters. (using 2023 data): Joker, Steve, Rob, Wolf, Aegis. There's only two of those that I feel like I can comfortably play. Rob, Wolf, and Aegis all have an advantage that PT will struggle with regardless of switching. Rob has projectiles and boxing that PT has to outplay, Wolf has aerial drift that PT can't keep up with, and Mythra is too fast to deal with. See PT's problem is Roy's problem, they have to engage. Razor leaf serves no benefit if thrown out all the time and it isn't really a spacing tool. Zard does have some pretty decent disjoints but you're still playing a heavy with range. PT is a brawler, grappler, jack of all trades type that seems like a good idea but one extreme too much on an opponent and it starts to fall apart like Wolf. But Roy is fast enough and punishing enough that his engagement feels worth it. Wolf is jack of all trades but he has a reflector, a projectile that protects and spaces, and air speed that makes up for this. PT gets to swap. Don't get me wrong I play this character for that reason but PT can get overwhelmed relatively easily and doesn't off much to make up for these shortcomings. Like what does PT do against min min? There's not a way to not engage with Kazuya. Projectile users greatly render this character like Samus and Young Link. PT works great against characters that don't change the rules of smash much. Like most players complain against G&W and consider him the pocket character. PT doesn't struggle against G&W like other characters do because PT is such a neutral heavy character and that's where G&W fails.
@@Wrestleroftheyear it can be fustrating. Im dedicated to this character and love them but man their shortcomings can really suck. And i played a low mid tier in 4 so its not like im not used to it
@@trevorkeith3813 I respect it and feel you man I love pokemon and PT is really fun and great concept….but yeah you summed up the flaws really well. If I wanted to main them I could make it work better but they’re my 3rd character so I’ll just keep em for fun, respects though ☠️
I know I’m late but it’s definitely because of the effort you have to put in. As time went on more DLC characters were made easy to use and ridiculously strong like pythra and Steve so what’s the point of sweating with palu or wolf when you can get the same if not better results with an easier character
I don’t think Joker really fell off, yes he’s not top 1 anymore but I think most of that is simply because other characters have been introduced or gotten better. Most people I know put Joker in top 5 behind Steve, Sonic, Aegis and Kazuya. He got nerfed, but a lot of that stuff like downgun mainly made him harder and not overall drastically worse.
Downgun wasn’t even that good. The casuals, players, and devs acting it was didn’t understand their own game since T-jolt and many other less flimsy tools (game and watch up-b), had less lag, don’t put themselves in the disadvantage area (full hops or double jumps), the characters in the cast had overly broken recoveries that made down-gun gimp characters, and the range of Joker’s pre-nerfed down-gun was in the very bottom of the move, meaning that if you jumped to where he starts the move, you wouldn’t get hit. It is a huge example of Leo being so good, the devs convinced themselves this move was stupidly oppressive, only to leave moves that are like that and stall the game out at full-power. It’s roller all over again.
@@justice8718 I mostly agree, although I would say that downgun is a bit better than you’re giving it credit for. Yes its hitbox wasn’t cracked, but it’s a setup tool. Other than that one thing people went crazy about where due to Barrels Joker had a 10-0 matchup against Diddy when he first came out, it wasn’t a game breaker. It just forced recoveries to be predictable, and in many cases could just take early stocks because it set up into crazy free edgeguards
@@TheMeasuringCup333 Joker’s edgegaurding has never been that free. The recoveries in this game are still way too insane even when you can actually limit them. And if they were worried about it, they wouldn’t have Steve and Min-Min, would they?
@@justice8718 oh I never though they were that worried about it. Smash devs are just not very good. But a lot of recoveries became mid against Joker IMO, like Cloud and Corrin, because a downwards hitbox with that level of safety is so good.
@@TheMeasuringCup333 What’s honestly very weird is that I don’t think Joker ever had the weird down-gun kill combos prior to the nerf. They were usually too far away for a smash attack but now they keep popping up to Joker’s face. It used to work a bit differently with Joker chasing down to the characters to get the second hit.
Pika did NOT fall off btw. The DLC just joined him. He's arguably getting more popular because of ShinyMark. The fact he's still argued for top 5 shows how lucky we are people didn't pick him up earlier. Imagine if shinymark was playing like this a year after the game came out. Lmao
Ppl always talk about dlc 2 creep but it's rly just steve aegis and kazuya who are top tiers. Min min got balanced + figured out and the rest are balanced characters
I think it's really cool how despite the "meta shifts" all of these characters are still incredibly viable and strong in the right hands. The balance of ultimate is the best thing about it with even low tiers like King K Rool or Little Mac still winning majors, all it takes is the right player. Also I hope we don't get a new smash game and instead ultimate gets 2 more fighter passes. We know switch 1 games will work on the switch 2, and with ultimate basically being the perfect smash package I don't see the reason for a new game. Just update Ultimate with new content.
im still so mad about how the community overeacted about pichu, THE ONLY CHARACTER WHO CONSANTLY SELF DAMAGES, and ended up being nerfed into something nobody cares to use.
Could you also make a video looking at the opposite? I remember when everyone said Diddy Kong was bad in Ultimate during the early days, including *REDACTED*, the top Diddy Kong player in Smash 4, but now he's considered top 10.
That's mainly because Diddy was actually not that good in early Ult, especially his recovery. He got many buffs throughout the game's lifespan to allow him to become as good as he is today
You could just not mention the person if you don’t want to use their name. It’s kind of dumb to reference him without referencing him to try to add merit to your claim. You could have just left it at “everyone said diddy was bad in ultimate during the early days…..” it accomplishes the same goal without being hypocritical.
I don't think Joker is really in contention for top 3, which seems to be fairly solidly Steve, Sonic, and Mr. Game and Watch. He might arguably be in the top 5, though.
I'm kind of hoping that smash ultimate goes the mariokart 8 path on next console uve got everything so theres no point making a new game when u can just add more to the current one especially with nintendos insane dlc prices being essentially over half a new game anyway you can't really top everyone is here so it seems better to me to do just some balances and add new characters and stages smash ultimate is "the" celebration of gaming so just celebrate more games there are still characters people want
Lol joker has dozens of 0 - death routes that have tons of frames of forgiveness that start off dash alone. No wonder hes the undebated top tier for competitive
Lucas punish game is good, upsmash alone is a bit silly, and footstool Oohs leading to a true universal infinite makes him seem like he should be good but no one plays him lmao
Inkling falloff needs to be studied😭🙏 I still remember when mf's were saying she was literally in the *top 10* of the game and nowadays you don't even be seeing them no more
Sort of but it’s not like most of em really lost their top tier status at all Wolf and Palutena are clearly top tiers and never had too many terrible matchups but in tournament they can get cheesed in a game where you either camp extremely hard or have an absurd punish game So character wise they’re definitely top tier and never really went down at all, but in a bracket setting there’s more popular top tiers over the fact that they’re as simple but can be more rewarding a vast majority of the time
The luminosity tier list is not good, a tierlist shouldn't be based on players results, rather, on each character's potential and stats. Isabelle is not better than villager.
I know this is like 1.0, but I think Inkling should be here too. As an Inkling/Pichu main since Day 1, it felt like a lava bukakke as Nintendo pounded them into the dirt. Inkling was just never even broken, but the community overreacted about the ink mechanic and Roller. Inkling does have the best jab in the game because of the ink spam, and best dash in the game with the insane levels of pancaking, but her kill power is so lackluster that it balances each other out. As for Roller, just mash dawg. You don’t need a tutorial on how to mash, you just MASH. It’s not like Inkling was ever a god at any one aspect of Smash either. She still gets walled out by disjoints, still has to wait 3 - 5 business days to kill, and still has pretty weak throws
Wolf is as mid as a top tier gets. No jank, no offstage game, inconsistent ledge trapping. Look how many times top players fruitlessly throw out Dsmashes and Ftilts trying to 2 frame opponents. He’s a fun fundamentals characters but you’re going to need something more reliable and consistent at top level.
Is it crazy that I love playing almost all these characters? I've been a wolf main for most of the game, and I think PT is the coolest designed character in smash. I'm a sucker for characters that are finally great after years of struggling (sans wolf and Joker but i love their high mobility bait and punish playstyle) so even though I'm not an overly aggressive player I learned roy to get him into elite. I still think there's room for these characters to improve. I really want to see a wolf that combines CDK's technicality (footstool OOS and tech chasing is so dope) with Jakal's insane decision making, which if we don't get a smash 6 maybe we see that day.
I hate how they nerfed my girl Palutena. I used her dash attack into neutral air combo aaaallllllll the time. When they nerfed the hit stun on her dash attack they nerfed my interest in the game.
It's interesting how the meta shifted so much even after the balance changes stopped. This game might be the second eternal-lasting game in the Smash series after all.
f
@@flyforce16 f
Congratulations, you're legitimately the first comment, and I have the screenshot to prove it.
Until the new smash drops
I think the longevity and the life span of ultimate sets it apart majorly from brawl and smash4
It amazes me that everybody had a pocket Wolf whenever the game first came out
I had complety forgotten about this. Lmaooooo "Imma hit you with side B to settle this brother 😔🙏🏼"
Now everyone has a pocket aegis
I remember when zackaray was some random kid just destroying with wolf
Video Idea: Why Everyone/No One Plays: Captain Falcon
W video idea
I feel like this is too accurate lmao. Like everyone plays Captain Falcon casually but no one plays him competitively
- Cool and Hype in casual
- Doesn't have anything to set him apart in competitive
Captain Falcon definetely is in a unique situation.
Reason
Bad dash dance and bad recovery.
W
Joker didn't really fall off. He just got naturally mellowed out/balanced as everybody else started figuring out what their characters can do punish wise.
Which was dramatically helped by the nerfs he got, which made holding on to Arsenne way harder against the onslaught of perfect punish games that'll either chew through his meter or edgeguard Joker.
Joker went from Top 2 right behind Palutena to arguably a top 15 character. With the nerfs that he's gotten and when everyone started to figure the character out, he went from being one of the most feared characters in the entire game to a rather niche pick due to his high skill floor especially when other top tiers are much easier to play than Joker.
@@Gurkan790 He's actually one of the most well represented characters at top level. Not as "niché" as you think. He was the best pre-quarantine and he's probably t10-15 now.
The nerfs were a slap on the wrist at most (they were needed). It's mainly just meta shift. Still a superb character with all the tools needed to succeed.
@@Gurkan790nah he was better than palutena. He honestly didn’t have any losing matchups at release.
Nah the pandemic murdered him. He wasn’t that good online so leo basically dropped him for Byleth, and he’s never been able to return to his original peaks since then
For Roy, the big reason is because meta shifts. The waves of DLC gave him four new bad matchups (Joker, Aegis, Steve, and Kazuya), and not only did many of those characters become meta, but many of the meta characters that Roy did well against (Palu, Wolf, ZSS, Lucina, Young Link, Wario, etc), even though they're still solid, aren't anywhere close to as prominent. Roy's good matchups became less prominent in the meta while his bad matchups became more prominent in the meta
I feel like Protobanham's hiates and eventual retirement hurt the character far more than people realize.
Even with his Min Min, his Lucina was extremely strong with very little holes in his game plan, and edge guarding arguably better than someone like Sonix. Watching him against Light, Riddles's Terry, Tweek, and more made the character look an entire tier higher than she was.
It helps that since Min Min covered a lot, his Lucina was mainly used in situations where it was most beneficial to do so. This was more common than one would expect though, since Min Min is such a volatile character.
Even if we don't count his Min Min, no Lucina has come anywhere remotely close to Protobanham. Even the best Lucina we have in Mr. E pales in comparison.
Lucina was hurt by all the factors mentioned badly, but I feel like losing Protobanham and not having any equivalent rep for her hurt arguably more.
Proto also carried the Min Min meta until his hiatus, but at least that character had Doramigi emerge and pick up the slack afterwards. Lucina doesn't really have any equivalent and likely never will.
And even him knows Lucina reached what it could be done about her , now he uses Steve instead of Lucina
Leon in France, too
When Proto - the best Lucina player - retires, the character also loses the best player who can push her beyond her potential. I doubt if we ever have another Lucina main matches Proto 😢
Dude he retired?!
I love seeing that Shuton Myran clip (Shuton down-airs a pikminto recover 1:06), thanks for putting it in and reminding me it exists
How has no one commented more about this? I saw this clip and had to rewind like 4 times to make sure that's what I saw
When you lose your top 10 representative, of course people will think your character has fallen off.
yup. that's pretty much all it is.
What about zss? She was quite literally considered top tier back in 2019/early 2020 and has now fallen so low she’s barely within to top 30 of the lastest tier list
It really is the nerfs she got coupled with many of her hitboxes just not working properly. Even though Marrs competes with her to this day, occasionally, I cant even count how many times someone has fallen out of her up smash in a last stock last hit game 5 scenerio
She got nerfed very hard. The up b nerf made a once always consistent reaction one of the most comital, risky moves in the game and to top it all off, characters fall out of it. Oh and now it has a slower start up time. So even though flip jump is a good move it’s no substitute for a proper punish out of shield.
They literally nerfed the fun right out of the character and it took a long time for ultimate players to admit that maybe it was a touch too much. Lots of visceral hatred against the character because, let’s be honest, she was good.
Her neutral is slightly worse because of nair nerfs. The only nerf that felt necessary was the bury mechanic.
Idk, it always felt unwarranted to me considering some of the players complaining already piloted very good characters like aegis, olimar, Steve g&w etc.
MAHHHHHHSSSSS
@@Berettadv marss barely plays the game competitively and still doing good recently agaisnt miya light zomba random steve players etc. the character is just a lot more balanced right now and its a good thing. people got sick of the zss dominance back then for a good reason.
@@johnmarkson1990 lol ain’t just Marss. Lots of fantastic Japanese zss mains dropped the character too for a good reason. I mean hell sheik is a balanced character as well but the effort to reward is not there and I’m willing to bet money it ain’t going to change anytime soon. There is a reason why this character disappeared in the meta for what has it been like almost 3 years now?
Videos like these are always interesting, even as a melee player. There's something inherently captivating about learning about the development of a meta in any game
As a Lucina main, yeah, thats the story. Great in the first meta in which most swordies were bad (Cloud, Corrin, Marth, Pit) or were different in their gameplan (Roy and Shulk). Ike was the closest to her but she had better mobility and recovery. However, once more swordies were buffed and added, Lucina became an alternative, and her lack of an X factor really hurt her in the meta. She needs to win neutral every time to win. If she can not do that, then she loses.
so many top players also got shadow banned during the pandemic, a lot of them being character specialists. we just don’t have the same players/ characters competing anymore. kinda crazy
Still wish the game had gotten more balance patches
Game could be so much more healthy if Sonic , Steve , Rob and G&W with some other characters get a bit of a "nerfed" and just buff the low tiers and some mid tiers like very small buffs.
@@henryreturns1397 well fair point if I had to nerf said three you said, I will just take from spin dash it's entire I frames, reduce game and watch's air mobility a bit, take from Steve the glitches he can do with blocks, reduce the damage of his weapons say stone do 1.1, iron 1.2 and diamond 1.3, decrease the damage of rain and make his up tilt/air slower.
I am not gonna enter to buffs but one character you didn't mention kazuya should got a nerf of make his jump squat frame 10 and make it that he can only cancel his double jump with specials
Nothing lasts forever. Plus, even if Ultimate got another balance patch, you can’t please everyone. I’m fine with where the game is at and anticipate for Smash 6 in two years.
@@henryreturns1397 they need to nerf steve, sonic, g&w, pikachu, pyra mythra, snake, rob, kazuya, min min, wario and joker. and buff captain falcon.
They fell off because the best players stopped playing them. After all this time, Smash fans are still judging how good a character is by how good they player is. Thought this would've stopped by now
For real, it makes no sense. I always say, if Sonix decided to pursue a medical degree tomorrow and quits smash, within weeks people will start saying “damn, Sonic fell off, people figured out how to counter him” when in reality, nothing changed
Obviously not all characters are equal, but I think people get into the nitty-gritty of tiers in a ridiculous way.
I think a character like Megaman really isn’t that different than someone like Snake in terms of viability, but saying that would be blasphemous cause it contradicts the tier list which just reflects which players were doing well at the time
I think when an entire fanbase, demographic, etc., of people do a certain thing, it has less to do with any particular errors on their part and more to do with human nature. For example, if MKLeo stopped playing Joker, we'd see almost no top level Joker play and a lot of counters to Joker. So we're being fed evidence of Joker being countered, and not much evidence of Joker succeeding. It's intuitive to at least get the sense that Joker might've just been a fraud the entire time and MKLeo is just busted as a player.
And in some ways it's kinda true that that's how the meta itself might develop. With nobody advancing the Joker meta, we'd see a kind of stagnation (or even atrophying) of that character's skill ceiling.
It'd work exactly like a dying language: nobody's using it, you know there's more to the language than we all remember, but in practice, we just aren't seeing it. In practice, other languages are being used in its place, and the language is less accessible. You'd still have a full language, with dictionaries and stuff, but if nobody's actually speaking that language perfectly then you're basically talking about TAS theory.
Similarly, Joker would kind of be a dead character with some mythical potential in theory but clear weaknesses in practice.
(Obvs I'm just using Joker as an example, I know MKLeo still plays him. Although I guess maybe we've gotten better at countering Joker than improving as Joker since the first tier list and that's why he fell off. Nobody's scared of him anymore.)
Literally what happened with cloud. I still remember he was considered mid tier and bad until they started winning tournaments with him now all of a sudden he's top tier. Same thing with diddy(fun fact diddy was named after diddy kong) corrin, byleth, bayonetta, I could go on all day
I think mega man is great, even tho he’s mid
A video on the rise of Diddy Kong from mid-tier to top tier would be cool
Edit : add the rise of Yoshi or Fox
I love how all the characters you mentionned (or put as a quick example like Pitchu or Palu) are litterally half of France's top 10's mains, the "all rounder with good neutral" is very present in here, you can still feel the impact of Gluto's old "mongoose neutral" on the french tops.
What happens with these ""ex top tiers"" is the best rep retires/stops playing and people just start saying stuff. And it's the ones who were going to complain about the character regardless.
Lucina and Wolf are still very good imo. Especially Wolf. But until they see a top 8 Ik ppl won't be convinced.
In those 2 examples who do you consider the best representative because I only see a character who most people stopped playing him and barely hanging in there thanks to jakal and another who their best representative realized the limits of the character and even if he could comeback , he instead would be a Steve/min min dual main , also just making top 8 one time it’s not gonna cut it anymore , the player has to make a name for themselves specially when most characters in ultimate have managed to top 8 at majors and the best way to represent a character strength it’s being top 50 at least multiple seasons i feel
@@sa-x4213 Ouch/Jakal, and Proto.
Y'all have such strange and arbitrary standards for what determines a character's strength lol.
@@lokks2130the moment people stop seeing a character at their peak people are gonna say they fell off
@@lokks2130 i mean , Isnt that how you filter out gimmicks vs true strength ? Like I’m not saying these characters are gimmicks but you just need to look around you and the volatile meta of ultimate mus , also there’s a lot of characters who have different stories during the game and it’s far from solved but I’m saying what I said because these were popular and popular = can potentially reach their peaks faster / have a fan base that can adapt and discuss changes in the meta / counter play , of course im gonna question these characters who were prevalent before because of these reasons and also I got a different opinion , it’s not because they have fallen off the only reason , so we are just here to discuss views like any other site
@@lokks2130 and like i said ouch it’s really good but it’s not part of the current top heavy level and jakal is but it’s also hanging in there as the most relevant representation, proto now mains Steve / min min
The other weakness of wolf that makes him suffer is that his grounded moves aren’t threatening. If he had fox/Falco down tilt I think he would be even more versatile with a stronger mix up and combo game. Since he has almost strictly single hit moves and likes to go for aerials it becomes pretty easy to parry and punish as the player base becomes stronger.
WOLF? non threatening grounded moves? I'm not coming to comments anymore lol I'm just gonna play the game
@@lokks2130 bro his tilts don’t start combos. That’s what I mean. He has good kill power with them at higher percents but it’s a pretty underwhelming neutral win for him. His smash attacks have plenty of startup where if you’re getting hit by them it’s probably a mistake you’re making. Down tilt and up tilt are meh. And you fall out of f tilt at max range which is the way you want to use it because it’s basically a sword move.
@@lokks2130 youre losing to wolf because your bad.
@@michaelevans6485 The tilts don't combo, but his _ground moves_ set up for tech chases that lead to the same strings/kills. So I disagree that they're non threatening. Wolf gets a big reward for any mix-up he hits.
U-smash low profiles, d-smash kills early and is good for tech chases/ledgetrap. F-smash prob the worst one, but it's still safer than it should be. He doesn't have the best Smash attacks but they're far from the worst. "Start-up" in a vacuum only goes so far practically.
@@johnmarkson1990 Pointless comment that adds nothing. You don't know me to know whether I lose to Wolf or not.
>Joker
>Roy
What is bro waffling about
I said lucina was overrated almost day one of ultimate. The character has a few glaring weaknesses and no x factor that even most mid and low tiers have. People used to say my opinion was crazy but here we are.
most lucina players did, but they kinda got drowned out because leo picked up the char
@@genki3466 didn't leo say lucina was a bit overrated and flawed some 5 years ago?
For real tho Lucina is still better than people give her credit for
facts
Word
Lucina is a fundamentals based character. In the hands of a pro she will look top tier. She might be the most well balanced character in the series.
I do think that joker "falling off" was pretty overblown, he is still obnoxiously powerful with Arséne and his projectiles are super powerful with great damaging normals without Arséne, but yeah he was not exactly no. 1 material, but I'd argue he's no. 9 over Diddy Kong if played optimally. Tldr joker never actually fell off, he was just overblown because he was overtuned on release
Joker wasn’t overtuned in release. As strong Arsene is, the nerf for it actually reduced his weaknesses in disadvantage. And down-gun, as good as it was, was always a risky option with plainly obvious blind spots.
I would instead say the Devs are oddly inconsistent on what is unbalanced and balanced, since pre-patched down-gun existed in a game with Min-Min, Steve, GNW, and characters with ridiculously strong recoveries. It was like nerf ZSS’s up-b in the game with GNW up-b. They were too reactive on characters like Joker and ZSS despite how small their player bases are and how there were no -2/-3 match ups from them, only for them to buff characters to be that way or introduced them in FP2.
It frankly was a mistake no matter how it is sliced.
I recently bought Kazuya and Steve and fought them as level 9 CPUs. And I immediately hated them, their CQ options are absolute planet busting and the only real counter I found is zoning tools like Mii Gunner/Samus and Wolf's Blaster. And even then their still a pain to deal with...
As I kept playing against them, I figured out counterplay, just try to space them out with what u have
love this youtuber, keep plz make videos like thks
Finally a new smash video ❤❤❤
As someone who plays wolf. I get that feeling of a generalist falling off.
Whenever I'm in a match there's always a moment when I think 'if I was playing x I could do this better'
Without having watched the video yet here’s my guess as to the answer.
“They were maimed by someone who was built different and who single-handedly made them top tier so when that person swapped or dropped off the whole character fell off”
And
“They were easy to master quickly or had fundamentals that transferred over from other games people had skill in, but weren’t necessarily the best characters outside that and when everyone had time to master the weirder characters they became less comparatively broken.”
reason: people learnt counterplay/dlc2 made them got shot down a few tiers
Nairo was shown in this vid. Is this the start of him being mentioned in discussions again regarding historic sets or Ult Palutena's history?
Why do you care
They nerfed cool characters/ more fun to watch, (like pichu) and buffed more aids/ less fun to watch characters (like sonic)
At the start of Ultimate I was hoping to main Wolf and have R.O.B as a secondary. In some twisted way the student became the master. Will always be thankful for Arm Rotor's buffs tho.
Video idea: The Meteoric Rise of Mr Game and Watch
i miss pichu being on top
Since Joker is still very good, I wish you'd covered Palutena instead. This character is still very good, too, but nowhere near the heights that Joker has reached even recently.
Thank you or mentioning Palutena! I was thinking about her and was so confused. Players swear she’s so great even after nerfs (which I agree with) but I just don’t know why people aren’t doing good with her? I’m a Palutena main and still think she’s good so not seeing her relevant by any really high tier players is just odd to me.
@Valid644
If I had to guess, it's the same issue as previously Joker when Leo dropped him (aka great character with few reps). But Leo picked up Joker again so not relevant anymore.
Palutena is great, but she isn't played by too many top players anymore. Chag (Mexico), Chase and Lui$ (California), Gen (NY), Raflow (France) and a few others use Palu but none have won majors in the last few years. She has great representation but no major tournament wins. So people think she fell off.
But she is absolutely still a great character. Chase makes Palu look broken in Coinbox when he used to enter those events. Ditto Lui$ who is still great as well. Chag has been doing well at off line events with Palu. Raflow is great in Europe.
Terry isn't even Fighters Pass Vol. 2
love the vid Yoshi vid?
I spoiled Joker by letting him have a relationship with Makoto Nijima. What do you think about my decision?
This is what I have been feeling about all this characters , it’s obvious that if X character it’s struggling to get consistent results doesn’t matter the peak , that something it’s happening with that character , specially ones that had a lot of representation early on because that means more popularity = X character meta develops faster to the point it may peak and there’s a lot of not obvious details that only top level players will understand , so it’s nice to see vars sit and think about the role and strategies of these characters ; giving it a second thought , wolf barely hanging in there thanks to Jakal , proto now it’s not even playing lucina anymore ( he knows ) , etc.
10:00 wtf was that link thinking tho
Meta changes contributed to it as well as more experience overtime caused those characters to get worse and more counterplay developed.
The biggest reason any character falls off is people messing around with other ones to see what they can do.
Wuthering waves music
Purely based off the thumbnail - haven't finished the video yet - joker is still extremely good.
"Not looking so good, Joker!"
I think what also happened to PT was that a lot of meta characters outplay them. Being a jack of all trades type of character, there's not many characters that PT just wins against and there's a lot of figuring out what mon to play because of different playstyles/your playstyle/switching doesn't cause advantage. Look at the top played characters. (using 2023 data): Joker, Steve, Rob, Wolf, Aegis. There's only two of those that I feel like I can comfortably play. Rob, Wolf, and Aegis all have an advantage that PT will struggle with regardless of switching. Rob has projectiles and boxing that PT has to outplay, Wolf has aerial drift that PT can't keep up with, and Mythra is too fast to deal with. See PT's problem is Roy's problem, they have to engage. Razor leaf serves no benefit if thrown out all the time and it isn't really a spacing tool. Zard does have some pretty decent disjoints but you're still playing a heavy with range. PT is a brawler, grappler, jack of all trades type that seems like a good idea but one extreme too much on an opponent and it starts to fall apart like Wolf. But Roy is fast enough and punishing enough that his engagement feels worth it. Wolf is jack of all trades but he has a reflector, a projectile that protects and spaces, and air speed that makes up for this. PT gets to swap. Don't get me wrong I play this character for that reason but PT can get overwhelmed relatively easily and doesn't off much to make up for these shortcomings. Like what does PT do against min min? There's not a way to not engage with Kazuya. Projectile users greatly render this character like Samus and Young Link. PT works great against characters that don't change the rules of smash much. Like most players complain against G&W and consider him the pocket character. PT doesn't struggle against G&W like other characters do because PT is such a neutral heavy character and that's where G&W fails.
You just summed up perfectly why I’m slowly dropping PT ☠️☠️
@@Wrestleroftheyear it can be fustrating. Im dedicated to this character and love them but man their shortcomings can really suck. And i played a low mid tier in 4 so its not like im not used to it
@@trevorkeith3813 I respect it and feel you man I love pokemon and PT is really fun and great concept….but yeah you summed up the flaws really well.
If I wanted to main them I could make it work better but they’re my 3rd character so I’ll just keep em for fun, respects though ☠️
I main wolf and I have been cooking with reflector combos because of the high hit stun the attack gives
I wanna know about Mario and Peach's current status in the meta
Are both of them popular enough for a "Why Everyone Plays"?
I know I’m late but it’s definitely because of the effort you have to put in. As time went on more DLC characters were made easy to use and ridiculously strong like pythra and Steve so what’s the point of sweating with palu or wolf when you can get the same if not better results with an easier character
The monotone voice is kind of hard to follow without captions however great video i have no take aways
I remember when Inkling was considered a REALLY good character when the game first came out. Oh, how times have changed.
Hey Vars, this video's music pics are very good tbh, dont you have the list?
Do you think you can make a video on how the online meta has evolved?
Clearly if these characters had Xiangling, they would be top ti- oh wait wrong game
I don’t think Joker really fell off, yes he’s not top 1 anymore but I think most of that is simply because other characters have been introduced or gotten better. Most people I know put Joker in top 5 behind Steve, Sonic, Aegis and Kazuya. He got nerfed, but a lot of that stuff like downgun mainly made him harder and not overall drastically worse.
Downgun wasn’t even that good. The casuals, players, and devs acting it was didn’t understand their own game since T-jolt and many other less flimsy tools (game and watch up-b), had less lag, don’t put themselves in the disadvantage area (full hops or double jumps), the characters in the cast had overly broken recoveries that made down-gun gimp characters, and the range of Joker’s pre-nerfed down-gun was in the very bottom of the move, meaning that if you jumped to where he starts the move, you wouldn’t get hit.
It is a huge example of Leo being so good, the devs convinced themselves this move was stupidly oppressive, only to leave moves that are like that and stall the game out at full-power.
It’s roller all over again.
@@justice8718 I mostly agree, although I would say that downgun is a bit better than you’re giving it credit for. Yes its hitbox wasn’t cracked, but it’s a setup tool. Other than that one thing people went crazy about where due to Barrels Joker had a 10-0 matchup against Diddy when he first came out, it wasn’t a game breaker. It just forced recoveries to be predictable, and in many cases could just take early stocks because it set up into crazy free edgeguards
@@TheMeasuringCup333 Joker’s edgegaurding has never been that free. The recoveries in this game are still way too insane even when you can actually limit them. And if they were worried about it, they wouldn’t have Steve and Min-Min, would they?
@@justice8718 oh I never though they were that worried about it. Smash devs are just not very good. But a lot of recoveries became mid against Joker IMO, like Cloud and Corrin, because a downwards hitbox with that level of safety is so good.
@@TheMeasuringCup333 What’s honestly very weird is that I don’t think Joker ever had the weird down-gun kill combos prior to the nerf. They were usually too far away for a smash attack but now they keep popping up to Joker’s face. It used to work a bit differently with Joker chasing down to the characters to get the second hit.
Pika did NOT fall off btw. The DLC just joined him. He's arguably getting more popular because of ShinyMark. The fact he's still argued for top 5 shows how lucky we are people didn't pick him up earlier. Imagine if shinymark was playing like this a year after the game came out. Lmao
Ppl always talk about dlc 2 creep but it's rly just steve aegis and kazuya who are top tiers. Min min got balanced + figured out and the rest are balanced characters
Yeah he still does really well against most of the dlc if anything
People have been saying this about Pikachu even before FP 1 was fully out.
I think it's really cool how despite the "meta shifts" all of these characters are still incredibly viable and strong in the right hands. The balance of ultimate is the best thing about it with even low tiers like King K Rool or Little Mac still winning majors, all it takes is the right player.
Also I hope we don't get a new smash game and instead ultimate gets 2 more fighter passes. We know switch 1 games will work on the switch 2, and with ultimate basically being the perfect smash package I don't see the reason for a new game. Just update Ultimate with new content.
i thought i had wuthering waves accidentally turned on in the background.. just me?...
im still so mad about how the community overeacted about pichu, THE ONLY CHARACTER WHO CONSANTLY SELF DAMAGES, and ended up being nerfed into something nobody cares to use.
Could you also make a video looking at the opposite? I remember when everyone said Diddy Kong was bad in Ultimate during the early days, including *REDACTED*, the top Diddy Kong player in Smash 4, but now he's considered top 10.
That's mainly because Diddy was actually not that good in early Ult, especially his recovery. He got many buffs throughout the game's lifespan to allow him to become as good as he is today
@@benji6325 Still a case of a character rising up the tier list. Also what about Steve?
@@TheLobsterCopter5000 Steve's rise would for sure be an interesting video
You could just not mention the person if you don’t want to use their name. It’s kind of dumb to reference him without referencing him to try to add merit to your claim. You could have just left it at “everyone said diddy was bad in ultimate during the early days…..” it accomplishes the same goal without being hypocritical.
@@bleachigo990 blatently avoiding the name by saying redacted is a joke don't take it seriously
Honestly idk why they nerfed these guys i mean the normal reaction is to buff lesser characters is it’s equivalent to the best ones in the meta right?
i agree with u, but id much rather a steve and sonic nerf over buffing any of the low tiers
I miss PT in tournament play...
No way, I didn't know Vars from LOL played SSBU
We still live in a world where Joker is arguably top 3, character has not fallen off
I don't think Joker is really in contention for top 3, which seems to be fairly solidly Steve, Sonic, and Mr. Game and Watch. He might arguably be in the top 5, though.
PLEASE MAKE A YOSHI VIDEO HE IS MY IDOL
Pichu was nerfed too hard in my opinion as it would had the wolf treatment also of everyone learning how to deal with it.
Why is Yoshi so high up lol
Please do a video on Zelda no one talks about her 🙏🙏
Hey if Nintendo hates competitive smash so much, what's up with all the post release balances?
They still do.
All the patches revolved around ONLINE PLAY, as stated directly by Sakurai.
Yea joker isn't as good as he was when he released but to say he fell off is crazy that character is amazing even now
I'm kind of hoping that smash ultimate goes the mariokart 8 path on next console uve got everything so theres no point making a new game when u can just add more to the current one especially with nintendos insane dlc prices being essentially over half a new game anyway you can't really top everyone is here so it seems better to me to do just some balances and add new characters and stages smash ultimate is "the" celebration of gaming so just celebrate more games there are still characters people want
you could just say "Joker cant abuse how stupid Gun was anymore".
No. Gun is currently being used far more properly and safely than it ever has been in the past. Down-gun is way more limited than it looks.
Sad me decided id main inkling, palu, pichu, lucina in 2018..
Definitely going to need a video on the opposite, Smash Ultimate's Ex Bottom Tiers. Gotta mention GnW in that one imo.
Lol joker has dozens of 0 - death routes that have tons of frames of forgiveness that start off dash alone. No wonder hes the undebated top tier for competitive
Lucas punish game is good, upsmash alone is a bit silly, and footstool Oohs leading to a true universal infinite makes him seem like he should be good but no one plays him lmao
I like him. Hes got cool stuff.
Although his voice is annoying.
I guess the thing keeping people from using Lucas is the highly punishable recovery (unless you use snek)
@@asierx7047 he also has like no range.
that might be a factor, but his recovery is highly versatile if you learn about hakas and such
thats a wild thing to say lmao 💀
Inkling falloff needs to be studied😭🙏
I still remember when mf's were saying she was literally in the *top 10* of the game and nowadays you don't even be seeing them no more
Kirby D-tier twice in a row
So basically Power Creep?
Sort of but it’s not like most of em really lost their top tier status at all
Wolf and Palutena are clearly top tiers and never had too many terrible matchups but in tournament they can get cheesed in a game where you either camp extremely hard or have an absurd punish game
So character wise they’re definitely top tier and never really went down at all, but in a bracket setting there’s more popular top tiers over the fact that they’re as simple but can be more rewarding a vast majority of the time
The luminosity tier list is not good, a tierlist shouldn't be based on players results, rather, on each character's potential and stats. Isabelle is not better than villager.
Wario used to be so fun😢. Spamming up-tilt was funny.
I know this is like 1.0, but I think Inkling should be here too. As an Inkling/Pichu main since Day 1, it felt like a lava bukakke as Nintendo pounded them into the dirt.
Inkling was just never even broken, but the community overreacted about the ink mechanic and Roller. Inkling does have the best jab in the game because of the ink spam, and best dash in the game with the insane levels of pancaking, but her kill power is so lackluster that it balances each other out. As for Roller, just mash dawg. You don’t need a tutorial on how to mash, you just MASH.
It’s not like Inkling was ever a god at any one aspect of Smash either. She still gets walled out by disjoints, still has to wait 3 - 5 business days to kill, and still has pretty weak throws
Two combo throws, a kill throw and a throw that applies ink is not exactly what I'd call "pretty weak".
@@Garomasta Forward throw applies barely any ink and down throw stops combo’ing after 25%
@@InmateOmighty didn't they nerf that? In 1.0 the downthrow up air was easier right?
was gonna comment saying Inkling and Pichu should be on this list too.
any noob killer got nerfed. zss inkling king k rool. these were the character you use to cheese new players with the roller. it was so fun.
Can you do a why no one plays on Little Mac 🤭
Because the game is over as soon as he is in the air for 0.1 seconds
Wolf is as mid as a top tier gets. No jank, no offstage game, inconsistent ledge trapping. Look how many times top players fruitlessly throw out Dsmashes and Ftilts trying to 2 frame opponents. He’s a fun fundamentals characters but you’re going to need something more reliable and consistent at top level.
He has some off stage game it aint outstanding but you will sometimes see top Wolves killing with nair off stage.
Everyone/no one plays yoshi?
I think Roy/joker could still make it, MAYBE pt, everyone else is cooked
but have u considered? squirtle is baby.
they are still good ass characters they are just power crept
Laziness
Thumbnail alone tells me this is pretty unreliable with Joker being there honestly. He is still top 5. Lol
TLDR: Steve
What about Pac-Man? I have no clue how he fell off but he did.
Cause Pros stopped playing them is the real answer.
So do top players get paid or is this all bragging rights?
I feel like smash fell off overall, game can’t stay No1 forever
They didnt BYE
I believe dedede is under rated
Top Roy players? Why the S? you mean Top Roy player.
Kola, Goblin and recently Sparg0 using Roy vs Sonix.
Joker is still a top tier bruh
i think what hes saying that despite being top tier he isnt the number 1 matieral that he used to be which is still a fall off even if small one
Is it crazy that I love playing almost all these characters? I've been a wolf main for most of the game, and I think PT is the coolest designed character in smash. I'm a sucker for characters that are finally great after years of struggling (sans wolf and Joker but i love their high mobility bait and punish playstyle) so even though I'm not an overly aggressive player I learned roy to get him into elite. I still think there's room for these characters to improve. I really want to see a wolf that combines CDK's technicality (footstool OOS and tech chasing is so dope) with Jakal's insane decision making, which if we don't get a smash 6 maybe we see that day.
I hate how they nerfed my girl Palutena. I used her dash attack into neutral air combo aaaallllllll the time. When they nerfed the hit stun on her dash attack they nerfed my interest in the game.
You were carried dawg 😂