@@VarsIII there is not way you said he has not cheater moves have you seen spargo and other clouds ledge trap thier opponents. They can’t do anything about backair it literally covers most options
@@stephenrichter8940 dk back air is not as mashable at ledge. You never see players forced in their shields until they get shield poked by dk backair. Cause he is a big body and you can get out of it. Cloud bair is -3 on shield and dk is -7
@@lokks2130 And of course negative bias makes people think their character is worse than people say. It does apply with some cases like Incineroar, but with Cloud there's empiric data to suggest he's a 9/10. Even if it's due to circumstance of not losing to Steve, still qualifies because tier lists only make sense in a metagame. Maybe he's only a high tier in a vacuum and the current play patterns favours him so much he's performing like a top tier; either way he should be treated as top tier atm. Meanwhile Pikachu should have NEVER been treated like top tier, not even in year 2, because it was always underperforming compared to other top tiers, and unlike Shulk where their few mains were showing results before the nerfs, Pikachu never got the numbers.
And it kinda sucks in ultimate; finishing touch especially is basically unusable. Having a cheating mechanic doesn't mean much if it's incredibly mediocre at best
@aronspiker72 nah, I disagree. finishing touch is an admittedly very situational tool but there’s plenty of clips of sparg0 using it in tournament. I use it rarely too. It’s not super applicable but far from unusable
easier than g&w? there's no way at least cloud is based off your skill as a player, and he has clear weaknesses as well to the point i'd consider him a fair high tier
Cloud has the range and kill power of Dedede and the frame data of mario, and limit may not cheat as hard as arsene or ewgf but it's still a mechanic cloud just gets for existing and he can abuse it 3-4 times a stock, so his placement is understandable, heck I'd even bump him up a bit
@HONEST-xj4rr dededes range is good which is exclusively what he is talking about and cloud probably has some of the best range to frame data ratio out of any swordie
Limit is very mediocre in ultimate, Limit up B just helps with recovery, Limit blade beam is just a solid upgrade to a simple projectile, Limit cross slash is the definition of Mid imo for a "super move", while finishing touch is arguably Cloud's worst move because it's killpower is laughable
@@aronspiker72 Limit up B just helps with recovery? That's bs man. I've seen Sparg0 using it for an almost unavoidable ledgetrapping. And it's also a frame 7 oos option that kills at like 90% with massive range.
ooookay, no. sorry, but no. acting like Limit, Bair, and just a generally fantastic kit ISNT cheating like the rest of the top tiers is as cap as it gets. I'm all for legit arguments, but now it seems like you're just saying this shit on purpose to get a rise
Saying cloud is overrated is some hardcore copium. As much as id love to say my main rob is overrated and as much as i can justify it in my head, taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture without my personal experience biases is exceptionally tough to do, but allows me to acknowledge my characters inherent strength. Cloud is an inherently good character, both for being simple and for their frame data. Near no characters can claim to having as reliable lf a gameplan as cloud making him an easy chracter to both pick up and continue using. There is a reason he is the most common main in the game at a semi competitive level. You will never struggle particularly to kill, nor will you get beaten in raw frame data or even spacing against the vast majority of characters. Cloud fundamentally is a strong character, from frame data, to consistent kills and even movement, cloud essentially acts as a specier version of lucina trading a small amount of consustency for strong and more unpredictable options
No you don’t understand, amazing aerials and OOS game and good recovery and good frame data and good damage and good kill power and insane gimmick isn’t that good bro
ROB as overrated? Hell no, even if you can say he is, he's still an absurdly strong character and VERY easy to play, and has tons of results to back up his worth.
one of the best recoveries in the game, can play at all 3 ranges, some of the best projectiles in the game, easy zero to death, heavy, grab follow-ups that lead to a kill, and more character is totally overrated lmao
I think any character who has mainly theoretical potential (shulk sheik pika etc) without probable potential is something most of the Smash community should understand. Just because a character can do it doesn’t mean it’s reliable in a competitive environment. Yes all of those characters I mentioned do have a rep at top level, but just view their consistency at majors , it’s very apparent in results.
I mean Pikas rep isn't incosistent at top level Mark just doesnt show up at many tournaments And theoretical potential doesn't mean it isn't consistently doable in bracket, it just means it will take a lot of optimization and time before being usable in tournament But as we see the game optimize these kind of characters will probably rise
Pikachu is a bad example, his stuff is aplicable shiny mark just doesn’t go to much stuff anymore and esam is either retired or not that good I’m not sure
5:59 Bair is unpunishable on parry. Limit Climhazard is also a rare example of an OOS option that kills. As a Cloud main I want to say that Cloud is a phenomenal character and the reason why Sparg0 is seemingly the only one with results is because of how easy he is to play. The ones piloting him don't try to learn matchups like Sparg0 does. It takes a critical mind to come up with a game plan against different characters and Cloud's easy gameplan of "just bair" is likely the reason every Cloud main other than Sparg0 relies on it rather than properly learning matchups.
@TwinHacari I disagree. As a Cloud main I think he's very fun especially when you're getting better at the game. Perhaps it's not because Cloud mains don't learn matches but because they don't have access to the flowcharts and player knowledge that Sparg0 has on other top players. He's knows mind games and how to adapt to other player's gameplans at top level which is why he beats unknown players too. Everything they do is what he's seen before in the top representatives of their characters but just worse because these high level players lack experience and player knowledge.
@@Animatix19 You think spamming the same two moves is fun ur in the minority. I only have fun when I'm making fun of that butt easy character. What mind games aerial spam = safe neutral skip
@TwinHacari well those aren't the only 2 moves cloud uses lol. You only look at Cloud at a surface level. He's fun because of how he moves and because limit is a cool mechanic
There was a case for him being top 10 pre-DLC. His competition was Pichu, Pikachu, Olimar, Palutena, Cloud, G&W, Sonic, Fox, Peach, Snake, ROB, and Pokemon Trainer. No Jonkler yet on top of no buffs for Samus and no Fighters Pass 2. If someone got in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and trained with Shulk for a year and came back out pre-DLC, Shulk would've been maybe even top 5.
@@Skeloperch I mean he is good but all his worst MUs were insanely common back then. Shulks worst MUs are ROB, Snake and Palu. Granted they are all -1 and he has winning MUs vs stuff like Peach Mario and Olimar but they are more rare except Mario. I also think people though he was really strong simular to why Ike was really good in early Ult; players didnt really engage with the parry mechanic. Once people learnt to parry Ike nair (granted it got nerfed as well) Ike fell down the tier list instantly. Shulk nair is also super easy to parry simular to Ike. Maybe he could have been top 9 or 10 back then but its hard to say. Also Wolf and Chrom were big threats as well; GnW wasnt really thought of as a good character back then
"Overrated" is used so much that it loses meaning. Cloud and Fox are appropriately rated. They're probably the most emblematic characters when it comes to characters that are phenomenal, yet just barely out of top tier. If anyone says cloud should be any lower than top 25 (off the top of my head), then they are coping so hard. The best video you made was the one about hit and run characters because you fundamentally understood their design and how it CAN work, but it's not as effective as rushdown (unless you count Sonic).
Did either of you watch the video or just look at the thumbnail? Fox is overrated for at least 10 reasons listed in this video. If he wasn't, more than just Light would see 𝘢𝘯𝘺 results with him.
@cam77797 There are more fox players than just Light. That's hardly a reason why a character would be overrated. Everyone knows fox is good, but he's certainly not hyped to extreme levels. Pikachu is the definition of overrated.
@@cam77797 There’s also Kanninabe and Paseriman. There are 86 characters in this game, with over half of them being at least somewhat viable. When there’s almost as many viable characters as there are top players (like, top 50 level), there’s likely to be considerable character diversity, especially if people are playing characters they were already comfortable with from when they played casually or even from previous games, like Tweek and Marss sticking with their mains. There are many factors that influence a character’s prevalence, and just looking at which characters are used most commonly by top players is not a very effective way to assess how good they are.
The downplayer is back at it again, Fox is not overrated. Fox is different from other rushdown characters because he does almost everything better. He has better combos and strings than most, with a better advantage state (weak dash attack being an insane move) along with being able to un-stale his moves with laser something that hurts the other rushdown characters. Like Roy will just mash aerials in your direction, odds are if you find yourself off-stage his f-air is too stale to kill on a sweet spot. Which is an underrated part of Fox's kit, and would fit the "bs factor" that earns him that top spot. The ability to completely negate a mechanic of the game (move staleing) by spending less than a second hitting the neutral special is insane. On top of this unlike other rushdown characters, Fox has the prefect range to avoid footstool OOS. Roy for instance has to choose to either be hit by footstool OOS, or he can have less shield stun with a sour spot (that can allow other punishes). Fox doesn't need to make this calculation, spaced b-air doesn't care about footstool OOS and is too fast to be punished if done correctly.
I don't think unstaling moves is enough of a deciding factor as you say it is. More than 3 lasers and you're risking getting sniped or rushed down against a large chunk of the cast. He can't kill with any moves but his smashes and up air/bair. No spikes. No reliable edgeguarding. He has an atrocious disadvantage state. His physics make him very easy to combo and juggle. His lightweight gets him offstage very easy where his linear recovery makes it all but impossible to recover against certain matchups. These are not the makings of a top tier. Proof in the pudding is that he doesn't get playtime. There's few top tier fox reps and they're far in between online. I main him at around 17.6 mil and I run into one fox every 100 or so matches. His main cheat, rather than the laser, is his "No, I win" frame data. Whenever you get a clank its a free hit for you 9/10 times. That is the only moment where fox feels unfair.
@@ignazioacerenza9881 "he can't kill with any moves but his smashes and up air/bair". You can still combo people into all of these moves and furthermore both Nair and Dair work to combo into kill moves. Saying fox can't kill despite all smashes killing, and all aerials either killing or leading to a kill confirm (save Fair, but it can be used for early gimps) is like saying Steve can't kill because his Nair doesn't kill. That is pure absurdity that the majority of the cast under Fox would love to be able to say about their character. Palu players would love if they could complain about Nair being a -3/4 move that if hit would true combo into a kill move, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Power is relative, and while I would submit that Fox certainly exist in a tier below the top 5 (who deserve their own separate tiers with Steve being the sole occupant of his own tier) even in the top 10 Fox still has privileges most characters could only dream of.
@@sadscientisthououinkyouma1867 My brother in christ most of the cast can kill with straight random dash attacks, fairs, neutral airs, jabs AND tilts. You could get some one to 200% and most of Foxes moves wouldn't kill. As a fox you have to do a whole layer of aditional work to get the opponent to lose a stock. He's got a few reliable kill confirms, and then he is forced to rely on tech chases and frame traps. But for these you need insane reaction times, great game awareness and a fair bit of luck when it's time to call 50/50's. On paper he could very well be the best character in the game, I'm sure of it. You get some ais to play the game and I bet Fox would get top results. But we're not perfect. And the cost for misplays in Fox is catastrophic. He's always two interactions from losing a stock! Like I said, proof in the pudding is the scarcity of pro reps in tournaments and how rare the character is online. I run into more banjos than Foxes in queue
@@ignazioacerenza9881 That is straight cap, most of the cast off jabs? Come on man, most of the top 10 can't even kill from a jab. You are just being silly at this point, and using online as a metric (where reaction based play Fox is at best, far harder) really isn't a good argument. That's like saying K Roll is top 10 because of how strong he is online, pure absurdity. A large factor in who is played is the character's required investment. Fox is a big investment, nobody would deny this but to say he is overrated is just silly. If we go by player count DK is a top 20 character, especially if we look at just the top 150 of ultimate where DK has numerous players. I'm very doubtful however that you would be delusional enough to say that DK is better than Fox.
6:05 no but Cloud does cheat a bit, he has limit break, his own cheater move, i image a potential world where cloud mains just camp and charge down b, but most cloud players don't do that and its probably not viable. But he has single-hit large damage which allows him to beat topteirs who take a mile off one hit, he has good startup frame data. I would put cloud in S- and kazuya in S-. I just believe if riddles only played ssbu instead of his other fighting games and doesn't use terry, then kazuya would be seen a higher rank. but its true he has some terrible matchup with fast characters, but so does some of the top teirs. I agree with the rest of the characters.
Kazuya is DEFINITELY NOT an S Tier character. He has already demonstrated to be losing to too many important matchups in the Meta game for him to do so. He's definitely a High Tier.
@@user-be3qc7re9o he's not s tier when he can win neutral and stay in advantage forever if the opponent gets hit once and the only solution is to plat camp or projectile camp him. But he's a high tier, bro you'll be telling me steve is high tier next lmfao
@nascour5991 No, Steve is a definite Top Tier due to not only having significantly better neutral and punish tools overall, but also has numerous techniques that are deemed so egregious that they are straight up banned for competitive use. On top of the fact that Steve currently has the highest number of Tournament Wins by any character by a huge margin in all Competitive Regions. Kazuya only has ONE Major win by Riddles back at Big House 10, and the other time he won a Major (Collision 2023) he was forced to switch back and forth to Terry due to crucial matchups being unwinnable.
@@user-be3qc7re9o yeah bro kazuya totally isn't top tier, a char you can lab and be like a top player with after like 1-2 months, totally not top tier bro cus results. Bruh sonic and palu are amazing and they only have like one rep or limited results too wym. Tell me you know nothing about kazuya without telling me.
Snake. People say he's t5. Even top 10 might be too much. Corrin. Overrated similar to Byleth via Leo. Better than byleth, but still. Not top tier. Sonic. No less than top 5, but he's more contestable than people would like to admit. Putting Min Min anything past top 20 in big 2024 is a big "?" too. That character is honestly a gimmick. I agree with Fox being overrated. Disagree with Shulk cuz he can only get better from here. Bit of both with Cloud and Pika. Cloud isn't past top 15 imo but what he has can't be denied. Pikachu has so much, but he's very fragile. I wanna see shinymark enter more before saying anything. At worst he's top tier.
How the smash community works: -Doesn’t like low-tier characters -Doesn’t like high-tier characters -Doesn’t like any weight class -Doesn’t like any abilities (like multi-jumping) -Doesn’t like anything about the game, essentially
cus he lives forever, cant be comboed, has insane combos + kill confirms, is hard to edge guard, cant be shield poked, and has insane out of shield, hitboxes and drift
Oh, Cloud has a bs factor. Having substantially less lag than everyone else on top of his range and speed. I have to predict him 2 or 3 moves ahead even against terrible players who are using him.
By the same logic, Peach/Daisy have some great reps but not too many major wins, thus overrated too. Mute Ace is great but is also very prone to getting upset in tournaments too (case in point, Cirque 4). Ling is great online but he often struggles offline. Umeki is great but he's not winning major tournaments in Japan either. Thus by the same "Cloud is just Sparg0 and Fox is just Light" argument, they prove that the characters are getting more results than Peach on average.
I mean, there are tons of “Mr. Potential Man” characters. Sheik, Shulk, Pikachu, Mii Brawler, Ice Climbers, Peach/Daisy, etc. All have theoretically crazy potential, but all either have very obvious weaknesses, poor matchups into common characters/top tiers, or require ridiculous levels of consistency in execution to perform at said peaks.
@legrandliseurtri7495 Mute Ace always runs hot and cold. He can defeat a top 10 player in one tournament then not make top 32 in the next. It's "concistent" how inconsistent he is. I feel like if Peach was as broken as people say, then Mute wouldn't be so inconsistent
@lokks2130 But true top tier characters shouldn't really lose that often to characters or players that are worse than them. If Acola (with Steve) lost more often, and especially to people playing mid tier characters, we'd not think so highly of Steve on the tier list. Thus, either Peach is overrated on the tier list, or Mute is. I believe that Mute is very talented, and I think it's Peach that's overrated.
I feel like Cloud only having 1 top level player might just be because most people would rather keep him as a secondary for bad MUs rather than actually maining him. Hell, that's why I play him, he helps cover a LOT of Greninja's bad matchups while staying easy enough to pull out whenever he's needed
That point about Shulk's frame data is sooooo on point. If his frame data could be improved, especially during speed and/or jump, hed be muuuuch better
Lmaoo. I understand worse gnw because pika and gnw practically win all the same mus and barely lose any. But gnw wins them harder, his hitboxes are better and he's easier to boot. I remember doing a co-main experiment and making a dual chart for gnw and pika. In most mus it was just "yeah, would rather play gnw"
Literally. Pikachu is so broken and once Shineymark attends more, people will see. Pikachu is just as effective as Sonic with his camping due to his quick movement options + TJolt (he can literally camp under the stage) and he has good frame data on combos moves, with pretty good kill power. Pikachu also does really well against a lot of top tiers (Sonic being a big one, Pikachu is legitimately in Sonic’s top 2 worst MUs)
The thing about Fox when it comes to other rushdown characters in the anti-aggression meta is pretty cool, if you ask me. You see, Fox has his neutral special, which can set opponents to the correct percents for stuff to kill. Yes, it’s insane negligible damage and can be easily shielded, but that damage can add up, and if he lasers too much, you might find yourself dying off of one interaction. This is especially due to his insane combo game. Can his opponents play keep away against him? Obviously, but he has great approaching tools and Shine basically invalidates all attempts to projectile camp in lightning quick fashion. Also yes, us fox mains do have atrocious DI.
Imma just say it: The MOST OVERRATED part of smash IS the community! I love that you can get games with people almost in a pinch, but i could care LESS about their opinions and thoughts about characters. Conversations like that tend to get real toxic REAL QUICK, lol! I just play with who i like without worrying myself with mEtA or rEsUlTs. I don't compete, so all that is worthless info for me.
I'll rebuttal with a quote from Smash Internet Funny Man Alpharad in regards to Cloud. "You can pick any character you want, but if you have Back Air (to) Forward Tilt as shield pressure, you're carried."
This reminds me of one sequence in grand finals of don't park on the grass, where Sparg0 did backair into forward tilt on Miya's shield at the ledge. After shielding both moves, Miya foolishly tried to punish Sparg0 with his own ftilt, and not only was Sparg0 able to shield it, he then decided to use ftilt again, and he killed Miya during the endlag of G&W's ftilt. It was one of these rare moments where you feel bad for G&W lol.
Fox is actually even lighter than you think he is, because of GravPen, the worst designed mechanic in Smash history, which results in him dying earlier both vertically AND horizontally than you might expect.
Cloud is both overtuned and overrated. He is cracked but people placing him within top 10 are hard on copium. Most people who complain about him just are low tier mains or low level players (who never dared to study a match up). Not defending Cloud at all, he's busted, but y'all putting him top 10 is whack af There's no way you guys think there are less than 10 characters better than him, I refuse to believe it. We don't watch the same tournaments I guess
Cloud being overrated is one thing, but Fox being overrated is another thing and what ticks me off more! Especially as someone who plays the character! You mean to tell me that Fox is overrated when Roy isn't, when they both essentially do the same things? That's just not fair! Fox may not have a BS factor beyond great movement and normals like other top tiers, but that's the thing, his movement, combo game, and neutral are all so incredibly good that he almost doesn't need a BS factor, at the very least he'd be way more frustrating to fight against if he had one like Roy's early kill power, GnW's Fire, Peach and Daisy's Float, Steve's blocks or his "get out of disadvantage free" card in the form or mine cart. Maybe top 10 is a little high, I will concede to that much, and I will admit Roy is easier than Fox, especially with such ludacris kill power, but I completely understand why some people put Fox up there in the top 10! He's fast, he's got an excellent combo game, he's hard to catch in and disadvantage sometimes, and he can really smoother his opponent when played well, like you said. Besides, Light is a character specialist at the end of the day, unlike Sparg0. Everything Light does is something any Fox can do with enough practice and time, and it's not just raw fundies that carry the player and the character to top-level. That's the big difference here. TLDR: I disagree, Fox isn't overrated. He's exactly where he should be on the tier list.
I love how every single move Kirby copies is noticeably better than the original move except Monado which only gives Kirby like 60% of the boost, simply because Monado Kirby is better than every character in the game. It's wild to see how bad shulk's moves are to balance out having Monado
I never side with Esam's hot take on pretty much anything, but the one thing we both agree on is that Pikachu is fucking BROKEN. I still believe he is at least top 5 in the game. I'm not saying this to be seen as some fucking contrarian or shit like that, but that character is seriously not okay. I don't care what tournament results say
Snake I think is the most underrated character because he should be the best in the game. He has a ridiculous amount of setups and situations and scenarios he can set up when mastered, he arguably has the most combo trees in the game and at the highest level where mixups are even more valuable, snake should be king. His only drawback is it requires perfect execution and an insanely high IQ to pull off.
He’s definitely not best in the game. So long as Steve and Sonic exist, he’ll never be. He MIGHT be able to take #3 from G&W, but I think he comfortably belongs around the #4-#7 range.
Yeah, Snake seems difficult to play at the top level, where players don't run into grenades as often anymore. But if a player were able to get enough mental stamina to consistently play unpredictably, I think he could be practically unbeatable no matter the matchup. Hurt isn't far away from being that player, but I still feel like there are moments where he fumbles.
First time fighting a good Shulk main, I didn't know how to approach, but now I can beat him with my eyes closed. Cloud's buster sword is still disgusting, tho. He has so much priority and range that his sword is basically a shield. Not nearly as bad as Diddy or Min Min mains, but still pretty hard to approach.
The main argument here to stave off some of the objections is "there's only one or two people succeeding with them" when really, smash bros top 50 players have so much variety in character picks it is rare for there to be more than that. If we were going off of success and BS factor, Aegis really only has Shuton and Cosmos, and for Peach it's pretty much only Umeki and Muteace. And most of these players are struggling more than Sparg0, Shadic, and Light. Sparg0 doesn't even outplay a lot of the time, he will wildly throw out up-smash sometimes to either scare or kill the opponent (which is a habit he sometimes gets punished for). He plays more like Light, where his main goal is to use Cloud's insane pressure to bring his opponent's mental stamina down, and from there it becomes easier to outplay them. And hell no Fox is just one of the most oppressive characters at any point where he's not in disadvantage. (anyways random internet comment over. and Roy and Bayo are actually underrated. Shulk and Kazuya are overrated, but I don't think anyone's believed in Shulk for a good while now)
Many other players use Aegis as a secondary (Sparg0, Acola, Leo, Kola, Snow, to mention a few). She's one of the two exceptions to the rule of only one or two succeeding with a character at the top level(the other being Steve).
Most of the these are for specific matchups (acola uses aegis as a specific counter to sparg0, though he has used them solo in other tournaments, kola doesn't really use aegis anymore, and same with leo, and snow also uses them as a counterpick). She is a really good fundies character, and has basically replaced Wolf as the general favorite for a secondary. Solo pyra / mythra is mostly what I'm talking about here, and most solo mains have been struggling with her. Hell, even Shuton seems to be using more Olimar these days than Pyra / Mythra. And they're placed at top 5 on the tier list, which I don't really see as justified compared to the other characters in Var's video.
I agree with most of your video, but I will say that I feel like you may be underestimating the human element of playing against a good fox. It’s aggravating getting your shield hit for basically free over and over again, and when your opponent is busy being aggravated while you’re trying to predict their out of shield option, it gives you an advantage that I feel like a lot of people under rate.
Nah man, Fox being combo food is a key part of his balance. If that weren’t the case he would be dog-tier in melee. He is good because despite that one weakness he has so much overwhelming pressure that very few can contest him. His gimmick is what puts him on the top.
I mean, he’s kinda right about the first part, depending on what you consider cheese. Also, I agree, there is no world where Fox isn’t top ten. As Marss would say, he’s “choose to lose.”
"calling cloud top 15 is gratuitous, much of that is the result of him beating the characters that beat everyone else." AND YOU ARE TELLING ME YOU DON'T THINK HE'S TOP TIER HIMSELF??? Bruh reread your script haha
Byleth has a good matchup into Steve, Corrin has a passable matchup into the top three, hell, even DK has a decent matchup into Cloud. You can’t say someone is top tier just because they have good matchups into top tiers. By doing that, you completely ignore the other 70+ characters in the game. Sure, having good matchups into the current meta is great, but won’t carry a high tier to top tier unless the rest of their matchup chart reflects a matchup chart of a top tier.
@@K0DA._. I don't think that having good matchups into top tiers is the SOLE reason for being a top tier. Cloud however has good matchups into top tiers (hell most of the cast) AND a good toolkit. Byleth and DK for example have decent matchups but more pronounced weaknesses in their gameplan. Beating a majority of the meta relevant threats though is a huge boon though for advancing your placement on the tier list. Of course it's also largely semantics in this case between high and top tier but I think it's incredibly disingenuous to state he isn't a top tier contender while having good matchup spreads on the most relevant top tiers, incredible results, and a really good moveset.
We are almost 6 years into this game and a K. Rool just won a B tier. Take that as you will, but I choose to believe every character is underrated. Heck, even Steve is underrated.
There's no world where Fox isn't a top tier. He is basically similar to Min Min except he sacrifices extreme range and hit boxes for a much better burst range, scrapping tools, and OOS. His on stage neutral chokes you and he can rack up kill percents in a very small timeframe. Then kills you at ledge rather easily. His recovery also is weirdly not that easy to gimp either.
my problem with fox is lack of edguard , kill throws and very little weight , you can just mash shield on high percent and fox will have a hard time killing
Cloud is the best character in the game online. You literally are safe with almost all your aerials hit harder then Ike with framedata like marth. Offline he can be reacted to but still remains top 10 at worst. He even has the results to back it up and is used a lot by players as an secondary since he is super easy for lots of power.
I'm a proud main Shulk and yes, Shulk is super overrated; he's at most High tier, but many want to praise him to top 10 for his ability with the monados, matchups and his range. Yes, Ganondorf would be terrifying with the monado arts, anyone with monados would, but Shulk has big flaws against him and let's be realistic, the Aegis are Shulk but Pay to win and with the nerf of the recovery and that they lose the funny yellow monado; and why spending so much time on Shulk full potencial, when you can spend it on idk, maybe G&W, Steve, Sonic, Peach or ROB, which are more easy to pilot and straight than learning 6 characters in one
then if you are a "proud" shulk main then why are you not maining G&W , steve , sonic etc? why are you losing your time? come on dude.. most people play the character because they like it not because are easier or better , and shulk is not overrated at all because he have almost no rep xd , shulk is actually fun to play , pyra and mythra are boring and basic with no gimmick at all..
@@pistarrafernandez9830 Because I like using Shulk, but other people don't want to use him; I mean, there are people who use Bottom or Low tiers because they like the character and there's nothing wrong with it, besides, with Shulk I can play, not camp like other infamous characters. Shulk in several tier lists at the beginning of Ultimate had him as Top tier because of the change in his Monado arts, his masive range that only had Belmonts as rivals for the biggest range, is great buffs and of course, the ability to practically cheat with the Monado shield, all of that generated too many good impressions and they believed that no matter what, Shulk would be on the podium. With the Aegis, I still prefer Shulk by far, f$ck waifus, all my homies hate DLC bullsh1t, but it is true that they have the speed and strength that Shulk struggles to use because of the coldowns, Aegis just Down B and there, you have Aegis speed or Aegis Smash + Buster without any coldowns
I agree with cloud being overrated but i strongly disagree with your reasoning. Cloud's moves are bullshit. His mobility is bullshit. His damage output is bullshit. Limit is bullshit. His recovery on the other hand is a different story. His recovery is truly a handicap in a game where most characters have decent recoveries. Cloud is one of the few characters where other characters can pick on him off stage. His recovery also limits his ability to fight off stage and edge guard. Cloud's poor recovery also makes his double jump a more important resource to save which can limit how aggressive he can be in advantage as well as his escape options in disadvantage.
Shulk's sort of 'mystification' also is what makes him overrated IMO, I have played a very large amount of Shulk and I have to say that he really is not that hard to play. To master? Maybe but I think that just applies to smash as a whole being very complex and difficult to master. His gameplan is just a swordie with buffs. That and his weaknesses are more prominent when you just play other swordies, Roy has kill power, combos, speed, etc. and you don't have to have awful frame data in exchange for that, unlike Shulk.
The one thing Shulk has on his side is time. Nobody really abuses the power of camping or waiting for Monado arts. People who play him never seemed to grasp this concept. There's always gonna be that one Monado art that every character doesn't like dealing with and or if they don't fight him this allows him to abuse shield art more often. Shulk seems overrated because nobody plays him properly. Imagine Steve's who don't mine for tools as much or if Sonix played Sonic aggressively all the time. They wouldn't be looked upon so highly if so. But they got players who actually play them properly. Shulk doesn't seem to have that at all in his player base and that's the biggest problem.
@@mac_chappyI mean kinda but thats isnt gonna work all the time. Against Hero or ROB for example thats suicide. I do agree turtling with Shulk and holding centerstage is good but you have to get kills as well. Passive playstyles give your opponent more time to adapt to you/counteract what you are doing
@@benross9174 Yeah against Hero another anti camp character. Rob you can do that against. I'm not saying you be passively 24-7 but I've watched Kome have a huge lead and not abuse his arts for defense. What I mean by defense as it if the opponent struggles with speed art you can keep using that if they don't approach. I'm mostly saying you get to choose when you want to go in because of the arts you have. I'm not saying run the clock but it gets harder and harder for you opponent if they allow to keep using shield art or any art that is a problem in that specific match up.
@@mac_chappy Ah yeah I agree 100% Shulk works best as a defensive character. Means he can use retrading aerials to deal with the frame data issue and he has more resources to work with. In some MUs camping for specific arts are definally optimal as well.
fox is broken and deserves top 5 for a number of reasons. also i sort of agree on pikachu, hes like the solid shoto character of ssbu in a all rounder kind of way
Yessss Pikachu, Shulk, and Fox have been overrated for so long. Esam might be great at the game but he has the worst takes. He way overhyped all these guys.
Pikachu probably was around where Esam said he was during the early meta where people hadn't figured out they can just mash massive hitboxes with little consequence. And when punish games weren't optimized. Nowadays he's mellowed out. Still very good tho
Thank you for saying Shulk isn't a top tier and explaining why!! Idk why people thought he was that good 😭 Also to add to the pile; Aegis isn't top 10.
Clouds weaknesses include being combofood (foresight) being bad vs small/low to the ground characters (Pyra dair and Mythra rising nair + all her grounded good moves), being cheesed (about the same, Aegis is slightly worse tbf) They might be simular characters but Aegis is clearly a lot better/more broken. Sparg0 even considered not playing Cloud anymore
@@WiiMoteGodYT It's not even bad oos, it's fairly decent all things considered. Sure Cloud has better oos but Cloud has great oos, not average. I'd say Mythra's is a bit above average between grab, up b, nair, bair on crossups and up smash.
I remember a number of UA-camrs saying that she was finally high or even top tier. Then she got absolutely no results. To me that's a clear case of most overrated character in the game.
Cloud has super sayain blue on cooldown and the best back air in the entire game. He has damn near no end lag of any of his attacks except for his f smash. Cloud = easy dubs
I so agree with that. Along with Steve and Aegis. Now between Steve and Aegis, Steve is overrated. I mean a character who doesn't move fast without mine cart, has stubby attacks and an up special that is completely vulnerable vs a character like Mythra who has stupid frame data, the best range in the game, super fast and has quite possibly the dumbest dodge mechanic of all time which that alone boosts her to top tier.
@@Krona-fb4dn where's the results then for Steve? You don't see the character going into grand finals as much as Aegis does. I mean if you can rate a character based on results, why isn't Aegis at the top being that I've seen that character in numerous grand finals. Whether it's Shuton, Leo, Sparg0 or even Cosmos. Also explain the videos on how to beat Steve showing his weaknesses and telling you that a strategy to beat Steve is learning what beats what. That's what matchup charts are for. While with Aegis, there are one or two videos on how to beat them but the only strategy that the youtuber can come up with is "be the better player." Yeah you could do that vs any other character but with Aegis, that is your only option. Think about that for a bit if you must.
Pikachu never was top 2 ever since 2019.Peach, ROB and G&W were always better it’s just the reps didn’t break out t’ill way later since they had to develop their characters new movesets
You can never stop me from pushing the Cloud agenda. Seethe all you want. I will never stop coping.
Cloud mains rise!
Together we will complain!
@@VarsIII there is not way you said he has not cheater moves have you seen spargo and other clouds ledge trap thier opponents. They can’t do anything about backair it literally covers most options
Shulk Player here.
MALLC
@@stephenrichter8940 dk back air is not as mashable at ledge. You never see players forced in their shields until they get shield poked by dk backair. Cause he is a big body and you can get out of it. Cloud bair is -3 on shield and dk is -7
at least you're self-aware about your coping, doesn't mean it isn't cringe though
Saying Cloud does not contain a BS or cheating factor is INSANE
Main bias fr fr
@@benross9174 fr fr
Cloud is one of my most played characters and I think that limit is indeed a bs cheating factor.
@@YoshiAteTooManyYoshiCookies thank you, reasonable individual, thank you
Back air
You already know clouds gonna be here
hows cloud “overrated?”
cloud isn't overrated at all people talk alot about his flaws
bro has multiple war crimes in his kit and is somehow overrated because limit isnt a free win button
It's because the maker of the video mains Cloud. Not because I think Cloud is overrated.
@@lokks2130 And of course negative bias makes people think their character is worse than people say. It does apply with some cases like Incineroar, but with Cloud there's empiric data to suggest he's a 9/10. Even if it's due to circumstance of not losing to Steve, still qualifies because tier lists only make sense in a metagame.
Maybe he's only a high tier in a vacuum and the current play patterns favours him so much he's performing like a top tier; either way he should be treated as top tier atm. Meanwhile Pikachu should have NEVER been treated like top tier, not even in year 2, because it was always underperforming compared to other top tiers, and unlike Shulk where their few mains were showing results before the nerfs, Pikachu never got the numbers.
"Blond haired blue eyes brethren" sounds like a Yu-Gi-Oh card
LMAO
as a cloud player limit is literally a cheater mechanic lol
And it kinda sucks in ultimate; finishing touch especially is basically unusable. Having a cheating mechanic doesn't mean much if it's incredibly mediocre at best
@aronspiker72 nah, I disagree. finishing touch is an admittedly very situational tool but there’s plenty of clips of sparg0 using it in tournament. I use it rarely too. It’s not super applicable but far from unusable
There is no way cloud is on this list. He’s the easiest character to get value out of in this game.
easier than g&w? there's no way
at least cloud is based off your skill as a player, and he has clear weaknesses as well to the point i'd consider him a fair high tier
@@cheeseburger8448 Both Cloud and G&W need fundies.
There. I said it.
Cloud has the range and kill power of Dedede and the frame data of mario, and limit may not cheat as hard as arsene or ewgf but it's still a mechanic cloud just gets for existing and he can abuse it 3-4 times a stock, so his placement is understandable, heck I'd even bump him up a bit
wdym by frame data of mario?
You are justifying his appearance in the video
Dedede isn't a good character and cloud does not have mario frames fam ;-;
@HONEST-xj4rr dededes range is good which is exclusively what he is talking about and cloud probably has some of the best range to frame data ratio out of any swordie
@@sammy_ike mario up air backair and nair
Saying Cloud doesn't have the bullshit factor is just pure cope. Limit cheats harder than like half of the top tiers' gimmicks.
Limit is very mediocre in ultimate, Limit up B just helps with recovery, Limit blade beam is just a solid upgrade to a simple projectile, Limit cross slash is the definition of Mid imo for a "super move", while finishing touch is arguably Cloud's worst move because it's killpower is laughable
@@aronspiker72 Limit up B just helps with recovery? That's bs man. I've seen Sparg0 using it for an almost unavoidable ledgetrapping. And it's also a frame 7 oos option that kills at like 90% with massive range.
ooookay, no. sorry, but no. acting like Limit, Bair, and just a generally fantastic kit ISNT cheating like the rest of the top tiers is as cap as it gets. I'm all for legit arguments, but now it seems like you're just saying this shit on purpose to get a rise
Cloud bair is better than most mid tiers
it is just main downplay, he does it a lot
6:22 Bro forgot Cloud has limit
Saying cloud is overrated is some hardcore copium.
As much as id love to say my main rob is overrated and as much as i can justify it in my head, taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture without my personal experience biases is exceptionally tough to do, but allows me to acknowledge my characters inherent strength.
Cloud is an inherently good character, both for being simple and for their frame data. Near no characters can claim to having as reliable lf a gameplan as cloud making him an easy chracter to both pick up and continue using. There is a reason he is the most common main in the game at a semi competitive level. You will never struggle particularly to kill, nor will you get beaten in raw frame data or even spacing against the vast majority of characters. Cloud fundamentally is a strong character, from frame data, to consistent kills and even movement, cloud essentially acts as a specier version of lucina trading a small amount of consustency for strong and more unpredictable options
No you don’t understand, amazing aerials and OOS game and good recovery and good frame data and good damage and good kill power and insane gimmick isn’t that good bro
ROB as overrated? Hell no, even if you can say he is, he's still an absurdly strong character and VERY easy to play, and has tons of results to back up his worth.
one of the best recoveries in the game, can play at all 3 ranges, some of the best projectiles in the game, easy zero to death, heavy, grab follow-ups that lead to a kill, and more
character is totally overrated lmao
@@Krona-fb4dnThey Said Taking A Step Back And Looking At ROB Allows Them To Acknowledge That ROB Is Big Good
yeah and he isn't even a top player to justify that stupid take
4:36 I KNOW YOU'RE LYING!!!! Cloud cheats harder than Shulk! His back air alone makes him a great character.
You gorra be kidding lmao
@@cheesusnt3302Its true. Bair is better than most mid tiers
I think any character who has mainly theoretical potential (shulk sheik pika etc) without probable potential is something most of the Smash community should understand.
Just because a character can do it doesn’t mean it’s reliable in a competitive environment.
Yes all of those characters I mentioned do have a rep at top level, but just view their consistency at majors , it’s very apparent in results.
I mean
Pikas rep isn't incosistent at top level
Mark just doesnt show up at many tournaments
And theoretical potential doesn't mean it isn't consistently doable in bracket, it just means it will take a lot of optimization and time before being usable in tournament
But as we see the game optimize these kind of characters will probably rise
Pikachu is a bad example, his stuff is aplicable shiny mark just doesn’t go to much stuff anymore and esam is either retired or not that good I’m not sure
Shulk gets outmashed by Hero, Seph and Min Min. He is a good character but my god does he have flaws as well
@shortesnameofalltime he isn't completely retired as he shows up in a couple tournaments, but he is more of a content creator than a player nowadays
tbf pika isn’t completely theoretical, their main representative just doesn’t go to tournaments that often anymore
5:59 Bair is unpunishable on parry. Limit Climhazard is also a rare example of an OOS option that kills. As a Cloud main I want to say that Cloud is a phenomenal character and the reason why Sparg0 is seemingly the only one with results is because of how easy he is to play. The ones piloting him don't try to learn matchups like Sparg0 does. It takes a critical mind to come up with a game plan against different characters and Cloud's easy gameplan of "just bair" is likely the reason every Cloud main other than Sparg0 relies on it rather than properly learning matchups.
It's really cuz clouds fun factor dies after playing 2 games with him when you realize youre just spamming bair and up b for free wins.
@TwinHacari I disagree. As a Cloud main I think he's very fun especially when you're getting better at the game. Perhaps it's not because Cloud mains don't learn matches but because they don't have access to the flowcharts and player knowledge that Sparg0 has on other top players. He's knows mind games and how to adapt to other player's gameplans at top level which is why he beats unknown players too. Everything they do is what he's seen before in the top representatives of their characters but just worse because these high level players lack experience and player knowledge.
@@Animatix19 You think spamming the same two moves is fun ur in the minority. I only have fun when I'm making fun of that butt easy character. What mind games aerial spam = safe neutral skip
@TwinHacari well those aren't the only 2 moves cloud uses lol. You only look at Cloud at a surface level. He's fun because of how he moves and because limit is a cool mechanic
I remember shulk being top 5 on tier lists back in the day, but now everyone realizes that he is just high tier.
He is still a solid high tier people have just been overhyping him since Smash 4. They are probably gonna do it in the next game as well
There was a case for him being top 10 pre-DLC. His competition was Pichu, Pikachu, Olimar, Palutena, Cloud, G&W, Sonic, Fox, Peach, Snake, ROB, and Pokemon Trainer. No Jonkler yet on top of no buffs for Samus and no Fighters Pass 2. If someone got in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and trained with Shulk for a year and came back out pre-DLC, Shulk would've been maybe even top 5.
@@Skeloperch I mean he is good but all his worst MUs were insanely common back then. Shulks worst MUs are ROB, Snake and Palu. Granted they are all -1 and he has winning MUs vs stuff like Peach Mario and Olimar but they are more rare except Mario. I also think people though he was really strong simular to why Ike was really good in early Ult; players didnt really engage with the parry mechanic. Once people learnt to parry Ike nair (granted it got nerfed as well) Ike fell down the tier list instantly. Shulk nair is also super easy to parry simular to Ike. Maybe he could have been top 9 or 10 back then but its hard to say. Also Wolf and Chrom were big threats as well; GnW wasnt really thought of as a good character back then
He’s a mid tier
Cloud has got to be top 5 easiest character. I dont know what your on?
Exactly. Cloud being simple and not having bs factor doesn't mean he isn't one of the easiest characters to pilot and play good with
This video is talking about overrated characters, not easy to play characters.
top tier mans tend to have heavy bias and copium
@@lucg4005 as if cloud doesn't hold your hand almost the entire game
Land a bair on grounded Pikachu consistently and then tell us how easy he is.
"Overrated" is used so much that it loses meaning.
Cloud and Fox are appropriately rated. They're probably the most emblematic characters when it comes to characters that are phenomenal, yet just barely out of top tier. If anyone says cloud should be any lower than top 25 (off the top of my head), then they are coping so hard.
The best video you made was the one about hit and run characters because you fundamentally understood their design and how it CAN work, but it's not as effective as rushdown (unless you count Sonic).
Nah, Fox is absolutely top-tier. Maybe the lower end, like top 10 or so, but he’s definitely up there.
Did either of you watch the video or just look at the thumbnail? Fox is overrated for at least 10 reasons listed in this video. If he wasn't, more than just Light would see 𝘢𝘯𝘺 results with him.
@cam77797 There are more fox players than just Light. That's hardly a reason why a character would be overrated. Everyone knows fox is good, but he's certainly not hyped to extreme levels.
Pikachu is the definition of overrated.
@@cam77797 There’s also Kanninabe and Paseriman. There are 86 characters in this game, with over half of them being at least somewhat viable. When there’s almost as many viable characters as there are top players (like, top 50 level), there’s likely to be considerable character diversity, especially if people are playing characters they were already comfortable with from when they played casually or even from previous games, like Tweek and Marss sticking with their mains. There are many factors that influence a character’s prevalence, and just looking at which characters are used most commonly by top players is not a very effective way to assess how good they are.
@@K0DA._. neither of those nobodies have ever been top 8 in a major.
The downplayer is back at it again, Fox is not overrated. Fox is different from other rushdown characters because he does almost everything better. He has better combos and strings than most, with a better advantage state (weak dash attack being an insane move) along with being able to un-stale his moves with laser something that hurts the other rushdown characters. Like Roy will just mash aerials in your direction, odds are if you find yourself off-stage his f-air is too stale to kill on a sweet spot.
Which is an underrated part of Fox's kit, and would fit the "bs factor" that earns him that top spot. The ability to completely negate a mechanic of the game (move staleing) by spending less than a second hitting the neutral special is insane. On top of this unlike other rushdown characters, Fox has the prefect range to avoid footstool OOS. Roy for instance has to choose to either be hit by footstool OOS, or he can have less shield stun with a sour spot (that can allow other punishes). Fox doesn't need to make this calculation, spaced b-air doesn't care about footstool OOS and is too fast to be punished if done correctly.
I don't think unstaling moves is enough of a deciding factor as you say it is. More than 3 lasers and you're risking getting sniped or rushed down against a large chunk of the cast. He can't kill with any moves but his smashes and up air/bair. No spikes. No reliable edgeguarding. He has an atrocious disadvantage state. His physics make him very easy to combo and juggle.
His lightweight gets him offstage very easy where his linear recovery makes it all but impossible to recover against certain matchups. These are not the makings of a top tier. Proof in the pudding is that he doesn't get playtime. There's few top tier fox reps and they're far in between online. I main him at around 17.6 mil and I run into one fox every 100 or so matches.
His main cheat, rather than the laser, is his "No, I win" frame data. Whenever you get a clank its a free hit for you 9/10 times. That is the only moment where fox feels unfair.
@@ignazioacerenza9881 "he can't kill with any moves but his smashes and up air/bair".
You can still combo people into all of these moves and furthermore both Nair and Dair work to combo into kill moves.
Saying fox can't kill despite all smashes killing, and all aerials either killing or leading to a kill confirm (save Fair, but it can be used for early gimps) is like saying Steve can't kill because his Nair doesn't kill. That is pure absurdity that the majority of the cast under Fox would love to be able to say about their character.
Palu players would love if they could complain about Nair being a -3/4 move that if hit would true combo into a kill move, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Power is relative, and while I would submit that Fox certainly exist in a tier below the top 5 (who deserve their own separate tiers with Steve being the sole occupant of his own tier) even in the top 10 Fox still has privileges most characters could only dream of.
@@sadscientisthououinkyouma1867 My brother in christ most of the cast can kill with straight random dash attacks, fairs, neutral airs, jabs AND tilts. You could get some one to 200% and most of Foxes moves wouldn't kill. As a fox you have to do a whole layer of aditional work to get the opponent to lose a stock. He's got a few reliable kill confirms, and then he is forced to rely on tech chases and frame traps. But for these you need insane reaction times, great game awareness and a fair bit of luck when it's time to call 50/50's.
On paper he could very well be the best character in the game, I'm sure of it. You get some ais to play the game and I bet Fox would get top results. But we're not perfect. And the cost for misplays in Fox is catastrophic. He's always two interactions from losing a stock!
Like I said, proof in the pudding is the scarcity of pro reps in tournaments and how rare the character is online. I run into more banjos than Foxes in queue
@@ignazioacerenza9881 That is straight cap, most of the cast off jabs? Come on man, most of the top 10 can't even kill from a jab.
You are just being silly at this point, and using online as a metric (where reaction based play Fox is at best, far harder) really isn't a good argument. That's like saying K Roll is top 10 because of how strong he is online, pure absurdity.
A large factor in who is played is the character's required investment. Fox is a big investment, nobody would deny this but to say he is overrated is just silly.
If we go by player count DK is a top 20 character, especially if we look at just the top 150 of ultimate where DK has numerous players. I'm very doubtful however that you would be delusional enough to say that DK is better than Fox.
@@sadscientisthououinkyouma1867 It’s either/or not all of them. Being exhaustive.
6:05 no but Cloud does cheat a bit, he has limit break, his own cheater move, i image a potential world where cloud mains just camp and charge down b, but most cloud players don't do that and its probably not viable. But he has single-hit large damage which allows him to beat topteirs who take a mile off one hit, he has good startup frame data.
I would put cloud in S- and kazuya in S-.
I just believe if riddles only played ssbu instead of his other fighting games and doesn't use terry, then kazuya would be seen a higher rank. but its true he has some terrible matchup with fast characters, but so does some of the top teirs.
I agree with the rest of the characters.
Kazuya is DEFINITELY NOT an S Tier character.
He has already demonstrated to be losing to too many important matchups in the Meta game for him to do so.
He's definitely a High Tier.
@@user-be3qc7re9o he's not s tier when he can win neutral and stay in advantage forever if the opponent gets hit once and the only solution is to plat camp or projectile camp him. But he's a high tier, bro you'll be telling me steve is high tier next lmfao
@nascour5991
No, Steve is a definite Top Tier due to not only having significantly better neutral and punish tools overall, but also has numerous techniques that are deemed so egregious that they are straight up banned for competitive use.
On top of the fact that Steve currently has the highest number of Tournament Wins by any character by a huge margin in all Competitive Regions.
Kazuya only has ONE Major win by Riddles back at Big House 10, and the other time he won a Major (Collision 2023) he was forced to switch back and forth to Terry due to crucial matchups being unwinnable.
@@Ravenbeak2564
Steve is a Definite Top Tier.
I don't know where you get the idea that he isn't at this point.
@@user-be3qc7re9o yeah bro kazuya totally isn't top tier, a char you can lab and be like a top player with after like 1-2 months, totally not top tier bro cus results. Bruh sonic and palu are amazing and they only have like one rep or limited results too wym. Tell me you know nothing about kazuya without telling me.
Snake. People say he's t5. Even top 10 might be too much.
Corrin. Overrated similar to Byleth via Leo. Better than byleth, but still. Not top tier.
Sonic. No less than top 5, but he's more contestable than people would like to admit.
Putting Min Min anything past top 20 in big 2024 is a big "?" too. That character is honestly a gimmick.
I agree with Fox being overrated. Disagree with Shulk cuz he can only get better from here. Bit of both with Cloud and Pika. Cloud isn't past top 15 imo but what he has can't be denied. Pikachu has so much, but he's very fragile. I wanna see shinymark enter more before saying anything. At worst he's top tier.
How the smash community works:
-Doesn’t like low-tier characters
-Doesn’t like high-tier characters
-Doesn’t like any weight class
-Doesn’t like any abilities (like multi-jumping)
-Doesn’t like anything about the game, essentially
this is because mash bros sucks, eventually they will find out about rivals 2 and love it
"Success depends entirely on the cloud players ability to outplay your opponent" 6:55 *showcases cloud spamming bair 7x in a row*
Bro Cloud is a better Lucina with projectile and an awesome charge gimmick, you only say this cuz you main him lol
0:10 "Zelda is high tier"
She has the best classical spike in the game
People need to start realising that@@InmateOmighty
@@TheHeteroHero They can't cause when you hear 'Zelda', most normal humans think of McDonald's Wifi Zelda mains.
@@InmateOmightydabuz hilariously put that move in a "5 awful moves" video not to long ago.
In my heart and in my dreams she's a high tier
We need a "Why everyone plays Yoshi"
A
cus he lives forever, cant be comboed, has insane combos + kill confirms, is hard to edge guard, cant be shield poked, and has insane out of shield, hitboxes and drift
Oh, Cloud has a bs factor. Having substantially less lag than everyone else on top of his range and speed. I have to predict him 2 or 3 moves ahead even against terrible players who are using him.
By the same logic, Peach/Daisy have some great reps but not too many major wins, thus overrated too. Mute Ace is great but is also very prone to getting upset in tournaments too (case in point, Cirque 4). Ling is great online but he often struggles offline. Umeki is great but he's not winning major tournaments in Japan either. Thus by the same "Cloud is just Sparg0 and Fox is just Light" argument, they prove that the characters are getting more results than Peach on average.
It's kind of funny that Mute won his first major a few months ago and all of his results since then have been mediocre.
I mean, there are tons of “Mr. Potential Man” characters. Sheik, Shulk, Pikachu, Mii Brawler, Ice Climbers, Peach/Daisy, etc. All have theoretically crazy potential, but all either have very obvious weaknesses, poor matchups into common characters/top tiers, or require ridiculous levels of consistency in execution to perform at said peaks.
@legrandliseurtri7495
Mute Ace always runs hot and cold. He can defeat a top 10 player in one tournament then not make top 32 in the next. It's "concistent" how inconsistent he is. I feel like if Peach was as broken as people say, then Mute wouldn't be so inconsistent
@@l.n.3372 Mute is losing to people that are a lot worse than him though. That isn't a Peach issue. She's just hard, kinda.
@lokks2130
But true top tier characters shouldn't really lose that often to characters or players that are worse than them.
If Acola (with Steve) lost more often, and especially to people playing mid tier characters, we'd not think so highly of Steve on the tier list. Thus, either Peach is overrated on the tier list, or Mute is. I believe that Mute is very talented, and I think it's Peach that's overrated.
0:10 that guy is on some breaking bad level meth what are those takes ☠️
"zelda is high tier"
"Wii fit is top tier" was the best one 💀💀
"Dk goes even with steve"
“Duck hunt is top tier” How 💀💀💀
@@Mr_comical0 Hold up, let him cook.
I feel like Cloud only having 1 top level player might just be because most people would rather keep him as a secondary for bad MUs rather than actually maining him. Hell, that's why I play him, he helps cover a LOT of Greninja's bad matchups while staying easy enough to pull out whenever he's needed
Yeah he's making it sound like only sparg0 can main Cloud, when it's more like it's only sparg0 that WANTS to main cloud
“It’s not even a jab to the atrocious DI of Fox mains” shots fired
Vars saw ristermice get flamed for bad information and was like "ima need myself a slice of that pie"
Cloud is like crack cocaine that also gives you the ability to fly how tf is brother on this list??
That point about Shulk's frame data is sooooo on point. If his frame data could be improved, especially during speed and/or jump, hed be muuuuch better
I literally did not know he frame data didn’t improve that doesn’t even make sense if you’re in speed shouldn’t it improve?
Don’t think of Pikachu as a worse game and watch. Think of him as a yellow Sonic.
Lmaoo.
I understand worse gnw because pika and gnw practically win all the same mus and barely lose any. But gnw wins them harder, his hitboxes are better and he's easier to boot.
I remember doing a co-main experiment and making a dual chart for gnw and pika. In most mus it was just "yeah, would rather play gnw"
Then, just play Sonic? Only thing I could think is that maybe Pika wins some unfavorable MUs that sonic loses but I am not sure of any.
Agreed. Campy Pika is busted. Shinymark style > Esam style
Literally. Pikachu is so broken and once Shineymark attends more, people will see. Pikachu is just as effective as Sonic with his camping due to his quick movement options + TJolt (he can literally camp under the stage) and he has good frame data on combos moves, with pretty good kill power. Pikachu also does really well against a lot of top tiers (Sonic being a big one, Pikachu is legitimately in Sonic’s top 2 worst MUs)
The thing about Fox when it comes to other rushdown characters in the anti-aggression meta is pretty cool, if you ask me. You see, Fox has his neutral special, which can set opponents to the correct percents for stuff to kill. Yes, it’s insane negligible damage and can be easily shielded, but that damage can add up, and if he lasers too much, you might find yourself dying off of one interaction.
This is especially due to his insane combo game. Can his opponents play keep away against him? Obviously, but he has great approaching tools and Shine basically invalidates all attempts to projectile camp in lightning quick fashion.
Also yes, us fox mains do have atrocious DI.
Cloud being forced to outplay in opponent: Meanwhile, in the background, Cloud that just spams bair 10 times in a row against shuton until they die
You’re spittin in this video, especially about Shulk and Cloud.
Fr
Imma just say it:
The MOST OVERRATED part of smash IS the community! I love that you can get games with people almost in a pinch, but i could care LESS about their opinions and thoughts about characters. Conversations like that tend to get real toxic REAL QUICK, lol! I just play with who i like without worrying myself with mEtA or rEsUlTs. I don't compete, so all that is worthless info for me.
I'll rebuttal with a quote from Smash Internet Funny Man Alpharad in regards to Cloud.
"You can pick any character you want, but if you have Back Air (to) Forward Tilt as shield pressure, you're carried."
This reminds me of one sequence in grand finals of don't park on the grass, where Sparg0 did backair into forward tilt on Miya's shield at the ledge. After shielding both moves, Miya foolishly tried to punish Sparg0 with his own ftilt, and not only was Sparg0 able to shield it, he then decided to use ftilt again, and he killed Miya during the endlag of G&W's ftilt. It was one of these rare moments where you feel bad for G&W lol.
what about bayo. she should be there. fake character
Fox is actually even lighter than you think he is, because of GravPen, the worst designed mechanic in Smash history, which results in him dying earlier both vertically AND horizontally than you might expect.
Cloud is both overtuned and overrated. He is cracked but people placing him within top 10 are hard on copium. Most people who complain about him just are low tier mains or low level players (who never dared to study a match up). Not defending Cloud at all, he's busted, but y'all putting him top 10 is whack af
There's no way you guys think there are less than 10 characters better than him, I refuse to believe it. We don't watch the same tournaments I guess
yep
Cloud being overrated is one thing, but Fox being overrated is another thing and what ticks me off more! Especially as someone who plays the character!
You mean to tell me that Fox is overrated when Roy isn't, when they both essentially do the same things? That's just not fair! Fox may not have a BS factor beyond great movement and normals like other top tiers, but that's the thing, his movement, combo game, and neutral are all so incredibly good that he almost doesn't need a BS factor, at the very least he'd be way more frustrating to fight against if he had one like Roy's early kill power, GnW's Fire, Peach and Daisy's Float, Steve's blocks or his "get out of disadvantage free" card in the form or mine cart.
Maybe top 10 is a little high, I will concede to that much, and I will admit Roy is easier than Fox, especially with such ludacris kill power, but I completely understand why some people put Fox up there in the top 10! He's fast, he's got an excellent combo game, he's hard to catch in and disadvantage sometimes, and he can really smoother his opponent when played well, like you said.
Besides, Light is a character specialist at the end of the day, unlike Sparg0. Everything Light does is something any Fox can do with enough practice and time, and it's not just raw fundies that carry the player and the character to top-level. That's the big difference here.
TLDR: I disagree, Fox isn't overrated. He's exactly where he should be on the tier list.
I love how every single move Kirby copies is noticeably better than the original move except Monado which only gives Kirby like 60% of the boost, simply because Monado Kirby is better than every character in the game. It's wild to see how bad shulk's moves are to balance out having Monado
I never side with Esam's hot take on pretty much anything, but the one thing we both agree on is that Pikachu is fucking BROKEN. I still believe he is at least top 5 in the game. I'm not saying this to be seen as some fucking contrarian or shit like that, but that character is seriously not okay. I don't care what tournament results say
"I don't care what Tournament Results say."
That's the same argument people made against Steve from Izaw and Dabuz.
Snake I think is the most underrated character because he should be the best in the game. He has a ridiculous amount of setups and situations and scenarios he can set up when mastered, he arguably has the most combo trees in the game and at the highest level where mixups are even more valuable, snake should be king. His only drawback is it requires perfect execution and an insanely high IQ to pull off.
He’s definitely not best in the game. So long as Steve and Sonic exist, he’ll never be. He MIGHT be able to take #3 from G&W, but I think he comfortably belongs around the #4-#7 range.
Yeah, Snake seems difficult to play at the top level, where players don't run into grenades as often anymore. But if a player were able to get enough mental stamina to consistently play unpredictably, I think he could be practically unbeatable no matter the matchup. Hurt isn't far away from being that player, but I still feel like there are moments where he fumbles.
Cloud downplayer
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that shulk is ridiculously overrated
Personally I'm glad Pikachu was considered the best character for so long. The rat did not need any buffs...
I thought you said Plub. It was cloud. Im also half asleep 😂
First time fighting a good Shulk main, I didn't know how to approach, but now I can beat him with my eyes closed. Cloud's buster sword is still disgusting, tho. He has so much priority and range that his sword is basically a shield. Not nearly as bad as Diddy or Min Min mains, but still pretty hard to approach.
The main argument here to stave off some of the objections is "there's only one or two people succeeding with them" when really, smash bros top 50 players have so much variety in character picks it is rare for there to be more than that. If we were going off of success and BS factor, Aegis really only has Shuton and Cosmos, and for Peach it's pretty much only Umeki and Muteace. And most of these players are struggling more than Sparg0, Shadic, and Light. Sparg0 doesn't even outplay a lot of the time, he will wildly throw out up-smash sometimes to either scare or kill the opponent (which is a habit he sometimes gets punished for). He plays more like Light, where his main goal is to use Cloud's insane pressure to bring his opponent's mental stamina down, and from there it becomes easier to outplay them. And hell no Fox is just one of the most oppressive characters at any point where he's not in disadvantage.
(anyways random internet comment over. and Roy and Bayo are actually underrated. Shulk and Kazuya are overrated, but I don't think anyone's believed in Shulk for a good while now)
Many other players use Aegis as a secondary (Sparg0, Acola, Leo, Kola, Snow, to mention a few). She's one of the two exceptions to the rule of only one or two succeeding with a character at the top level(the other being Steve).
Most of the these are for specific matchups (acola uses aegis as a specific counter to sparg0, though he has used them solo in other tournaments, kola doesn't really use aegis anymore, and same with leo, and snow also uses them as a counterpick).
She is a really good fundies character, and has basically replaced Wolf as the general favorite for a secondary. Solo pyra / mythra is mostly what I'm talking about here, and most solo mains have been struggling with her. Hell, even Shuton seems to be using more Olimar these days than Pyra / Mythra. And they're placed at top 5 on the tier list, which I don't really see as justified compared to the other characters in Var's video.
Hey Vars you should make a tier list.
I agree with most of your video, but I will say that I feel like you may be underestimating the human element of playing against a good fox. It’s aggravating getting your shield hit for basically free over and over again, and when your opponent is busy being aggravated while you’re trying to predict their out of shield option, it gives you an advantage that I feel like a lot of people under rate.
My fault wrong tierlist just saw that was a past one.
Nah man, Fox being combo food is a key part of his balance. If that weren’t the case he would be dog-tier in melee. He is good because despite that one weakness he has so much overwhelming pressure that very few can contest him. His gimmick is what puts him on the top.
I think the craziest thing of this entire video is saying you need cheese to be top-tier there is also no way Fox isn’t top 10 what
I mean, he’s kinda right about the first part, depending on what you consider cheese. Also, I agree, there is no world where Fox isn’t top ten. As Marss would say, he’s “choose to lose.”
The Pikachu take is literally awful, he is definitely NOT overrated
Quick question: what range of the tier list would you call high tier?
"calling cloud top 15 is gratuitous, much of that is the result of him beating the characters that beat everyone else." AND YOU ARE TELLING ME YOU DON'T THINK HE'S TOP TIER HIMSELF??? Bruh reread your script haha
Byleth has a good matchup into Steve, Corrin has a passable matchup into the top three, hell, even DK has a decent matchup into Cloud. You can’t say someone is top tier just because they have good matchups into top tiers. By doing that, you completely ignore the other 70+ characters in the game. Sure, having good matchups into the current meta is great, but won’t carry a high tier to top tier unless the rest of their matchup chart reflects a matchup chart of a top tier.
@@K0DA._. I don't think that having good matchups into top tiers is the SOLE reason for being a top tier. Cloud however has good matchups into top tiers (hell most of the cast) AND a good toolkit. Byleth and DK for example have decent matchups but more pronounced weaknesses in their gameplan. Beating a majority of the meta relevant threats though is a huge boon though for advancing your placement on the tier list. Of course it's also largely semantics in this case between high and top tier but I think it's incredibly disingenuous to state he isn't a top tier contender while having good matchup spreads on the most relevant top tiers, incredible results, and a really good moveset.
Shulk is still a good character; a solid high tier but when the character gets outmashed by Hero, Seph and Min Min the character has issues as well
My list of overrated characters:
-Kirby
-Fox
-Pikachu
-Ness
-Jigglypuff
-Pichu
-Marth
-Pokemon Trainer
-Sonic
-ROB
-Shulk
-Rosalina
-Duck Hunt
-Isabelle
-Incineroar
-Piranha Plant
-Banjo
-Byleth
-Pyra/Mythra
-Sora
We are almost 6 years into this game and a K. Rool just won a B tier. Take that as you will, but I choose to believe every character is underrated. Heck, even Steve is underrated.
Nah, Steve is correctly rated. He deserves the hate lol
@@dawg9991 I am not saying he doesn't. I am saying he is more broken than most people realize.
@@Wyrm_trainer true. Only people who've played against Steve know his power lol
There's no world where Fox isn't a top tier. He is basically similar to Min Min except he sacrifices extreme range and hit boxes for a much better burst range, scrapping tools, and OOS. His on stage neutral chokes you and he can rack up kill percents in a very small timeframe. Then kills you at ledge rather easily. His recovery also is weirdly not that easy to gimp either.
my problem with fox is lack of edguard , kill throws and very little weight , you can just mash shield on high percent and fox will have a hard time killing
Cloud is the best character in the game online. You literally are safe with almost all your aerials hit harder then Ike with framedata like marth. Offline he can be reacted to but still remains top 10 at worst. He even has the results to back it up and is used a lot by players as an secondary since he is super easy for lots of power.
Funny thing is... not even esam uses pikachu much
I'll take whatever Vars is smoking to think Cloud doesn't have a bs mechanic.
there is no way fox is overated
prime example that a well produced video does not make you correct
No mentions of Sheik, Weeb Trash Tag Team, Corrin (they fell off real quick didn’t they), Chrom, Lucina, and Byleth?
8:36 edgerunners reference 🤑
When did Yoshi become a top tier? I feel so out of touch 😂
I'm a proud main Shulk and yes, Shulk is super overrated; he's at most High tier, but many want to praise him to top 10 for his ability with the monados, matchups and his range. Yes, Ganondorf would be terrifying with the monado arts, anyone with monados would, but Shulk has big flaws against him and let's be realistic, the Aegis are Shulk but Pay to win and with the nerf of the recovery and that they lose the funny yellow monado; and why spending so much time on Shulk full potencial, when you can spend it on idk, maybe G&W, Steve, Sonic, Peach or ROB, which are more easy to pilot and straight than learning 6 characters in one
then if you are a "proud" shulk main then why are you not maining G&W , steve , sonic etc? why are you losing your time? come on dude.. most people play the character because they like it not because are easier or better , and shulk is not overrated at all because he have almost no rep xd , shulk is actually fun to play , pyra and mythra are boring and basic with no gimmick at all..
@@pistarrafernandez9830 Because I like using Shulk, but other people don't want to use him; I mean, there are people who use Bottom or Low tiers because they like the character and there's nothing wrong with it, besides, with Shulk I can play, not camp like other infamous characters. Shulk in several tier lists at the beginning of Ultimate had him as Top tier because of the change in his Monado arts, his masive range that only had Belmonts as rivals for the biggest range, is great buffs and of course, the ability to practically cheat with the Monado shield, all of that generated too many good impressions and they believed that no matter what, Shulk would be on the podium. With the Aegis, I still prefer Shulk by far, f$ck waifus, all my homies hate DLC bullsh1t, but it is true that they have the speed and strength that Shulk struggles to use because of the coldowns, Aegis just Down B and there, you have Aegis speed or Aegis Smash + Buster without any coldowns
i think you're actually literally backwards on everything about pikachu but everything else is pretty good takes as usual
I agree with cloud being overrated but i strongly disagree with your reasoning. Cloud's moves are bullshit. His mobility is bullshit. His damage output is bullshit. Limit is bullshit. His recovery on the other hand is a different story. His recovery is truly a handicap in a game where most characters have decent recoveries. Cloud is one of the few characters where other characters can pick on him off stage. His recovery also limits his ability to fight off stage and edge guard. Cloud's poor recovery also makes his double jump a more important resource to save which can limit how aggressive he can be in advantage as well as his escape options in disadvantage.
Shulk's sort of 'mystification' also is what makes him overrated IMO, I have played a very large amount of Shulk and I have to say that he really is not that hard to play. To master? Maybe but I think that just applies to smash as a whole being very complex and difficult to master. His gameplan is just a swordie with buffs. That and his weaknesses are more prominent when you just play other swordies, Roy has kill power, combos, speed, etc. and you don't have to have awful frame data in exchange for that, unlike Shulk.
Yeah he is hard mental stack wise and hard in the sense he cant really mash/have a hard tile forcing things but mechanically he is not that hard.
The one thing Shulk has on his side is time. Nobody really abuses the power of camping or waiting for Monado arts. People who play him never seemed to grasp this concept. There's always gonna be that one Monado art that every character doesn't like dealing with and or if they don't fight him this allows him to abuse shield art more often. Shulk seems overrated because nobody plays him properly. Imagine Steve's who don't mine for tools as much or if Sonix played Sonic aggressively all the time. They wouldn't be looked upon so highly if so. But they got players who actually play them properly. Shulk doesn't seem to have that at all in his player base and that's the biggest problem.
@@mac_chappyI mean kinda but thats isnt gonna work all the time. Against Hero or ROB for example thats suicide. I do agree turtling with Shulk and holding centerstage is good but you have to get kills as well. Passive playstyles give your opponent more time to adapt to you/counteract what you are doing
@@benross9174 Yeah against Hero another anti camp character. Rob you can do that against. I'm not saying you be passively 24-7 but I've watched Kome have a huge lead and not abuse his arts for defense. What I mean by defense as it if the opponent struggles with speed art you can keep using that if they don't approach. I'm mostly saying you get to choose when you want to go in because of the arts you have. I'm not saying run the clock but it gets harder and harder for you opponent if they allow to keep using shield art or any art that is a problem in that specific match up.
@@mac_chappy Ah yeah I agree 100% Shulk works best as a defensive character. Means he can use retrading aerials to deal with the frame data issue and he has more resources to work with. In some MUs camping for specific arts are definally optimal as well.
fox is broken and deserves top 5 for a number of reasons. also i sort of agree on pikachu, hes like the solid shoto character of ssbu in a all rounder kind of way
Yessss Pikachu, Shulk, and Fox have been overrated for so long. Esam might be great at the game but he has the worst takes. He way overhyped all these guys.
Pikachu probably was around where Esam said he was during the early meta where people hadn't figured out they can just mash massive hitboxes with little consequence. And when punish games weren't optimized. Nowadays he's mellowed out. Still very good tho
8:00 No.
my character sucks ahhh
Thank you for saying Shulk isn't a top tier and explaining why!! Idk why people thought he was that good 😭
Also to add to the pile; Aegis isn't top 10.
You’re likely gonna get several replies disagreeing with your take in aegis, but it’s just the truth. Dw I agree 🤐
Aegis pfp? Yeah, that checks out
Yeah Aegis sucks
(Palu too but that one is obvious)
Players who play female characters seem to feel cute with themselves when they downplay their char idk man 😂
@@lokks2130 bro is pulling out all the hypotheses
0:08 am I missing something what makes chrom much harder than roy?
Fox short hop is literally unreactable. That’s his BS factor
Aegis has every weakness Cloud has and then some. They cannot enforce their win condition, which is just be better.
Not really?
Pythra's primary weaknesses is just recovery. The rest are all pretty small or easily worked around.
Clouds weaknesses include being combofood (foresight) being bad vs small/low to the ground characters (Pyra dair and Mythra rising nair + all her grounded good moves), being cheesed (about the same, Aegis is slightly worse tbf) They might be simular characters but Aegis is clearly a lot better/more broken. Sparg0 even considered not playing Cloud anymore
@@nightmarenoivern9240sometimes mythra has shit out of shield like nair but it still fucks everyone up anyway
@@WiiMoteGodYT It's not even bad oos, it's fairly decent all things considered. Sure Cloud has better oos but Cloud has great oos, not average. I'd say Mythra's is a bit above average between grab, up b, nair, bair on crossups and up smash.
@@RealSonarX I'm talking about when she hits you with nair she has enough endlag to be punished sometimes
Just because a character isn't as represented as others doesnt mean they're overrated. Pikachu is still top 2
exactly
HOLY COPE! that is an insane take
@@thepoopman7876 pikachu downplayer spotted
@@Myst1c_OW pikachu will never be a real top tier
What about Sheik?
I remember a number of UA-camrs saying that she was finally high or even top tier. Then she got absolutely no results. To me that's a clear case of most overrated character in the game.
Cloud has a losing MU to Sheik so ofc Vars is gonna think she is broken
Overated Characters currently:
Peach, Diddy, Fox, Shulk, Game & Watch, Corrin
8:37 CYBERPUNK MENTIONED 🗣️🗣️ WTF IS PLOT ARMOR
Fun facts:
Kirby beats pika, evens with shulk, and 60:40s Fox
In your opinion how many parts is dedede?
as an example that you sed in this video; pikachu is a 2 part character, setup then kill.
I'd love to see the same video, but for "most over-complained about Wi-Fi characters" and why they aren't as OP as people say. 😅
As a Fox main, I feel targeted.
Although there are times where perhaps I should switch to Falco.
This Cloud propaganda is on a "There is no war in Ba Sing Se" level
Cloud is absolutely overrated. I still put Pika in top 5, and you'd be insane not to have the rat in top 10.
Cloud has super sayain blue on cooldown and the best back air in the entire game. He has damn near no end lag of any of his attacks except for his f smash. Cloud = easy dubs
nah man Pikachu is a fucking war crime cant be fr, he's literally top 3
You can't be top 3 with next to zero results for like 5+ years.
@@Krona-fb4dnyes you can when people simply choose to main other characters
I so agree with that. Along with Steve and Aegis. Now between Steve and Aegis, Steve is overrated. I mean a character who doesn't move fast without mine cart, has stubby attacks and an up special that is completely vulnerable vs a character like Mythra who has stupid frame data, the best range in the game, super fast and has quite possibly the dumbest dodge mechanic of all time which that alone boosts her to top tier.
@@wolfodonnell7890 aegis isn’t anywhere near as busted as Steve.
@@Krona-fb4dn where's the results then for Steve? You don't see the character going into grand finals as much as Aegis does. I mean if you can rate a character based on results, why isn't Aegis at the top being that I've seen that character in numerous grand finals. Whether it's Shuton, Leo, Sparg0 or even Cosmos.
Also explain the videos on how to beat Steve showing his weaknesses and telling you that a strategy to beat Steve is learning what beats what. That's what matchup charts are for. While with Aegis, there are one or two videos on how to beat them but the only strategy that the youtuber can come up with is "be the better player." Yeah you could do that vs any other character but with Aegis, that is your only option. Think about that for a bit if you must.
the pika slander will not be tolerated lmao
Good video
This takes are actually good ones
Pikachu never was top 2 ever since 2019.Peach, ROB and G&W were always better it’s just the reps didn’t break out t’ill way later since they had to develop their characters new movesets
Pyra/Mythra and Incineroar.
The Aegis are top ten minimum. Might be top 5
@@benross9174no PAM is mid tier next to GnW